Esteban Baez
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Fate Shifter podcast. My name is Esteban Baez. And together with Martin Altherr, Today, we're gonna be discussing what is the difference between fear and anxiety. Hi, Martin. How are you?
Martin Altherr
Hey, Esteban. I'm great! How are you?
Esteban Baez
I'm fantastic, and I'm super excited about today's topic because anxiety is something that I unconsciously struggled with for a long time, and I didn't even know that I was operating with a massive level of anxiety.
So I really want to know what you have to say about fear and also about anxiety.
Martin Altherr
Okay, for example, you see something and fear comes up. Like, you're in front of a lion. Or you are you're like, let's bring another catastrophe picture, like, you see how a landslide comes towards you and you cannot run away. Fear comes up.
That's just what it is. It pumps adrenaline, which brings actually a lot of good things to the body to survive situations or to get out of negative situations.
Potentially, when you're in front of a lion, maybe you find a tree that is high enough, that he cannot get closer to you, or you can even hide somewhere inside a car or something and you just do it because your brain stem is gonna help you a lot.
The brainstem shoots this typical hormone to set off the frontal cortex and you just act on the best way to save your life. although it can also make you freeze, which we observe very often if somebody gets in a shock.
That's the worst thing that can happen because then you cannot save your life anymore. And the other thing is then to fight if you're in front of an animal like a dog and you are on the edge, you cannot escape anymore and the dog is gonna attack you.
You're gonna fight back to do your best, to maybe, survive. So that is when fear comes up, the adrenaline goes up, and the muscles are stronger.
You suddenly are able to carry weights, you were not able to carry before. etc. That is happening as a positive effect on your body. On the other hand, we have the anxiety.
Esteban Baez
So anxiety. But before we dive into the details of anxiety, fear basically has to deal with real impressive danger. Right?
Is that what you're saying? If there's a predator or an animal that I noticed, like, I live in Florida. Right? So here, all the time, if you go near water or a lake or anywhere where there's water, they always have the sign, look out for alligators.
Watch out for alligators. There is possibly an alligator that can show up, and sometimes they're very big. and I remember being near a Lake one time. And I was just doing a regular normal walk, and it was at least a fifteen-foot alligator outside looking at me.
And I was like, wait a minute... And I... and I noticed it and instantly fear came in. Yeah. But in a sense, it was a good thing because if I didn't feel fear, then I wouldn't respond.
So I cautiously walked away from the leg and then kept going, but It was a huge alligator. So yeah.
Martin Altherr
Oh, I can imagine that must have been a very impressive experience when you're just in front of it, and it almost might have attacked you if you had not backed out.
Esteban Baez
Correct.
Martin Altherr
Yes. It's true. But that's what I'm saying. Fear is coming up and is something that helps you to survive and is helping you to react in a situation accordingly.
On the other hand, fear and anxiety are very close to each other.
I think maybe we make the jump to the other side... To anxiety.
And then after we have done this, we go into the conversation of how they interact, fear, and anxiety because they interplay a very bad game with you and with everybody out there.
Esteban Baez
So what is anxiety? We define fear as something that can serve you, and also it can hurt you if you're not supposed to freeze, then you freeze. Right?
I guess fear has to do a lot with what is it. So you can either run, fight, or freeze. Right? Did I miss one? I think I missed one.
Martin Altherr
No. The fourth is reproduction, but it's another thing.
Esteban Baez
Okay, Good. Wait. What are the 4 "F"? Let me see if I got them. Say it again. What are the 4 "F"?
Martin Altherr
Fight, Flight, Freeze, and Reproduction.
Esteban Baez
Oh, reproduction? Oh, is that an oh... Okay. :-)
Martin Altherr
Now you got it.
Esteban Baez
You changed the "R"... For the "F" for the "R". Got it. Got it. Okay. (Laughing)
So what is anxiety? Does anxiety have something similar?
Martin Altherr
Okay, anxiety is a completely different story. Anxiety is something you made up in your mind. Anxiety has nothing to do with the outer circumstances. For example, you sit in a room and somebody calls you on stage. Boom. Anxiety is already there.
You start to sweat. You start to get nervous and so on. This anxiety can get so strong that you cannot stand up anymore. And often people call that fear but that has nothing to do with fear.
That's anxiety, and this anxiety is made up in your mind. You create something you could be fearful of and then that is what you call fear, but actually, you make it up. It has nothing to do with the situation you're in, and that is anxiety.
For example, I had this very intense situation when I was learning diving. And our diving teacher brought us on three meters, which was very easy. and a simple thing. We had to flush our diving goggles and then we had to put it on to blow out the water so that it's again clean and without water.
So, actually, a very simple exercise. and I started to open. And by opening my goggles, it felt like I was drowning. And it was a very uncomfortable feeling. In the end, I had to go up these three meters into the air and then to clean up my goggle, and then go down again.
Then we went out of the waters, and in the afternoon, we went again diving. This time we went down on 9 meters. And at 9 meters, he gave us a sign. The sign told us to do this exercise we had just done at three meters now to do it at 9 meters.
And then the unlucky situation or lucky situation, we can see it however we want...
The unlucky was I was the last to do it. And the lucky thing was I really came into anxiety to learn something about it. So that was the lucky part.
So the first started, did it, and the closer it came the more I felt that something in my body started to happen, I never felt before, and I was suddenly so full of fear. I could almost not breathe anymore, and then I realized...
Wow! I have a panic attack. I'm fully shot by anxiety. And by understanding this and realizing this, there was something that saved me in that situation. It was that my mind said to me: "Hey, observe what is happening. Then you know even better what your clients are experiencing when they talk about panic attacks and anxiety."
So I started to observe myself, and that was saving me because by observing, I was looking from the outside to me, And then it was, like, observing, and my body calmed down.
Then it was my turn... luckily I got out of my panic attack and thought: "What can I do now?" And then I thought: "It is actually, very simple."
I just put the head sidewards, and I opened my goggles, so the air bubbles from my mouth went sidewards up, and I didn't have this ugly feeling of almost drowning anymore.
I could just flush it and put the air in again and everything was good down on 9 meters. And I was safe.
For me, it was so impressive that I started to make up this anxiety in my mind, this fear in my mind by seeing how it came closer to me to be my turn and that is what I mean when I say anxiety is something made up.
Another example is what you do when you are in front of somebody who is your dream partner. What starts to happen? You start to struggle. You start to stumble. You start to be even a bit clumsy and all that for no reason because you make up in your mind something that makes you behave like that.
That is where anxiety is connected to. Anxiety is definitely, as a matter of fact, made up in your mind.
Esteban Baez
Wow. That is so powerful. I like that working definition because a lot of us think that anxiety is something that is just kind of real, and we confuse it with fear. So we don't even know it's inside.
We think it's just fear. Everything is just fear. But in reality, when you said that anxiety is something imagined that we're making up we're imagining the worst case scenario. And therefore, now we reproduce fear, but we're producing it because of an imaginary event that hasn't happened and probably will not happen.
What you did there or when you were under water you almost had a full-blown panic attack. Woah. What a horrible place to have a panic attack.
Wow. I was just so intrigued by how you were gonna get out of that. I thought you were gonna go up again, but you didn't. And that's incredible that you were able to overcome that.
But you did it because you were able to let go of the imaginary thought of "I'm gonna drown". You started to think of a solution. instead of focusing on the problem. So you were able to make that shift?
Martin Altherr
Actually, I was suddenly more intrigued by the fact that I had a panic attack. It was like, that's the gift of the day because now I can observe what it does with me and how it is exactly, and that makes me actually dissociate. and I was observing myself.
Through this, my whole system came down, which showed me, in my case, that dissociation was a help. In other cases, it can be the opposite. We must be very clear here.
You dissociate often when you are a survivor of trauma, and then you naturally dissociate. If you go into dissociation, then what happens is, actually, it triggers the trauma even more which can release even a deeper panic attack.
So we have to be here very clear. In my case, the dissociation was the solution for me to come back. But actually, what you said, which was very important, is to let go of the thought, the idea of what could happen in my mind.
Letting go of the idea is helpful for everybody who experiences anxiety, a panic attack or even experiencing fear.
Now when we take the next step: how do they correlate and how do they interact? If you are an African tribe...
there existed a tribe in Kenya, that actually dealt with lions. They go towards them. They even shush the lions away, to get some food from them so they are from their mental state even stronger because they know how to deal with the lion.
So, actually, there is a very important part that comes into the game, even with fear. That part is you don't know how to deal in a proper and appropriate way with the situation.
And that builds up the fear because then you're really in danger. And then when you're really in danger, of course, you need all these forces to do something.
The hero when he goes to a battle... or when he goes Let's say...
What was it in the Australian jungle? Crocodile Dundee when he went to fight with the crocodile, also has this fear inside his body, meaning using this force that is given by all these hormones that are shooting up because you are fighting something where you potentially could be hurt, but you know how to deal with that fear.
That is why you're still able to go into it. That is also when you go into a battle when you are... and let's say a good fighter with your sword and you go into a sword battle, you feel also all these hormones and everything, but you are not blinded by it.
You're not blinded, but you are alerted by it because you know how to deal with it. Actually, every boxing fight, every fight is working like that. Look at the fighters and just how they push themselves up before getting into this hormonal state of aggression in order to have this adrenaline to be stronger.
So if to deal with the situation, then fear is still there, but you know how to deal with it. Anxiety is not there because you don't make up things in your mind. What if and what if and if what if.
You know, all these what ifs that are happening when anxiety blows up or when a panic attack comes up, it's often not regulated by thoughts that are maybe also to differentiate here with the panic attacks, it's regulated by a hormonal shootout.
So the body shoots out something that brings you into that state that gives you the feeling and then the panic attack starts rolling.
There are also a few other things you have to consider and deal with in order to get rid of the panic attack.
I was working very often with people who had panic attacks, especially when... that was very interesting... After my diving experience... From then on, I had more and more people coming to me with panic attacks.
Why? Because I understood what it was, and I didn't even communicate that strongly to the outside, but it just happened. And those people just suddenly came to me.
So it's also often people are coming when you are ready to serve. It is like that.
That's what I actually can say about the correlation between fear and anxiety. Anxiety comes after fear. If you make up, through fear a scenario which is not existent.
Esteban Baez
Got it. So that's the difference. That's the big difference. So fear is real and present and present danger. With anxiety, it's not. It's a danger that's not real and the present is imagined.
So you're imagining a danger that could potentially happen. I guess it could be because when you were underwater, but you had all the protective gear and everything not to have danger.
So how do we deal with that, Martin? How do we deal with anxiety and panic attacks? I know you said that in the way that you did, it was through the dissociation, and coming back.
But especially someone like me who went through a trauma in their childhood. And then I realized that for a lot of my adult life, I was operating and making decisions based on anxiety.
What is good practical advice for someone that I had to become aware that I was operating on anxiety. I know that I wasn't aware. So how can one become aware if they're operating with anxiety?
Martin Altherr
Actually, when you are in a situation where you realize suddenly a fear comes up, and you cannot deal with it. Then it smells already very much after anxiety, especially when you look around and no predator is around.
So if nothing that really endangers your life right now is around, we could say: "Okay, we are dealing right now with anxiety.
The first thing when you are aware of this anxiety is...
You said it very nice. You said you had a lot of traumatic experiences, and that is why you were dealing a lot with anxiety, which is a matter of fact that if you have traumatic experiences, then you start to deal a lot with anxiety.
When we take it from that point of view, that means traumatic experiences like in the family systems or in life relationship systems. Then the first thing is to understand when it comes from childhood, you can take, an inner step backward by saying to yourself:
"Wait a second. That was what the child experienced what I am experiencing right now. What is the potential I can bring in in order to deal with it?"
Normally, that clicks immediately in and you can say:
"Oh, I'm an adult now. I'm not anymore that child who is in that fear, who is in that panic, who is in that situation and stress. That child that time experienced, I'm an adult, in a situation that looks similar but is completely different. First of all, I am actually in a position of self-determination and second of all, I have an adult in front of me that has also to deal with my reaction. So I can also react differently so I can stop this interaction immediately if I want to."
It is different, for example, with phobias. The phobias are set completely differently, and... Let's put it like this. There is normally very much helping the conditioning training. It means conditioning yourself to lose the fear.
I have a horrible spider phobia because when I was two and a half years old, my cousin that time put a spider on my head, a huge one. We call it the cross spider because they have a... like a holy cross on their back, and they're poisoning.
That is what I knew, but he made it even bigger. He accelerated it. He said, she's gonna bite you now and you're gonna die. And he left me there standing alone. It felt like a whole day, crying and shouting for help with this spider on my head and nobody came until then my parents potentially 10 minutes later came, but for me, it was like a lifetime.
And from then on, I had a horrible phobia of spiders. So I was training that later on when I discovered the self-transformation code, I was using these elements to condition myself in a different way. And nowadays, I'm not afraid anymore of spiders, I can even go and put a glass and take a paper and look at them and really enjoy. I can also take big spiders in a vivarium. I can take them in a glass, but I need the glass in between.
Just to take them on my hand, I'm not yet ready, and I'm pretty sure I could train that as well, but there is for me no need. because I don't have a need to be so close to a spider. But in general, I can deal with them because we have them here in the house, of course, from time to time in the autumn they come into the house. In spring they come into the house, so we have to put them out again. I can deal with that nowadays.
But that is actually what you can do to come back to your question. You can, at that moment, when you feel this anxiety is coming up, you realize there is no predator around or nothing life-threatening actually around then we can say you are dealing with anxiety either triggered through hormones or through liquids in the body or triggered by a sentence somebody said. Triggered by an action somebody or something did, and that triggered then your anxiety.
Then to take a step backward and then to be clear, I'm not anymore that child or I'm not anymore in such a situation. I'm just now an adult. I can decide. I can make decisions, and I'm free to make decisions.
Let me give an example. When you again sit in an audience and that happened to me often in the beginning when I began to work with mentors, and they called me up on stage to present something to the audience... 200 - 300 people in the room.
In the beginning, it was for me to take a deep breath, and things came up, like, really anxiety. I thought it was fear of getting on stage at that moment in the beginning until I really knew that it had nothing to do with fear.
I made up something like, what do they think about me? What do they believe that I am, and who I am if I fail here... And all these crazy thoughts you have in such a moment. When you start to realize you made them up, you can decide even to say, no. I don't come on the stage. I don't need to go on the stage if I don't want to.
Then suddenly, It started to fall off. And then I could make a free decision and say to myself: "Hey, wait a minute. I'm here in this room to learn So what better could happen to me than to go on stage and produce something or offer something to the audience?
Stage time is wealth time. Right? So I learned that way to step back and to deal with it, look at it, and suddenly feel, I can decide for a no, or I can decide for a yes. It's my decision. I'm in control, and I think that's the most important thing to bring yourself back into control so that you understand that you are in control.
That you understand you can decide. You don't need to do this or that. You don't need to go there or there. especially when you are in front of the man of your life or the lady of your life, and you start to become, like, a nervous, wreck.
Step back and say, hey. I don't need to make the decision for a lifetime relationship right now. I can just enjoy the moment being together... Then suddenly, the stress falls off because now you don't have to do anything. You just can be yourself.
That helps a lot to get into the conversation because most people expect already 3, 4, or 5 steps more in advance than where they actually are. And that is creating the anxiety in that moment.
So these are a few ideas or thoughts about how you could deal. And of course, there are many more, and they depend on the situation.
You have to go individually with somebody in that position when there is really an anxiety that is bothering your life and holding you back from earning enough money, from having the right relationship you want, from tapping into spiritual consciousness, for whatever you want to reach in your life. When it's really holding you back, We have to individually look at it because often it's not only a traumatic experience. Often there are also imprints and systemic entanglements behind it and they are also firing to the anxiety that you make up in your mind.
Esteban Baez
That's powerful. I like that you said that the fastest way to release anxiety is to come back to control. And I think one of the ways you said to do that was to ask a better question, right? To bring yourself back to the present moment.
Don't travel to the future. So come back to control. Ask a good question that makes better sense. And then now you're in the present moment.
And then the other thing you did say was that a lot of times, if we cannot come back to control and if we cannot enjoy the present moment, then we might be dealing with an imprint.
And that's why I strongly believe in coaching, mentoring, and in therapy, because sometimes there are some anxieties, especially if you've dealt with something in your youth as a child that was traumatic, you might need... You're gonna need help from someone else. because I know for a fact, I'm someone that went through that process with you, Martin. I went through it with you, and I did it.
I was very skeptical, by the way. when I had a recommendation to have a conversation with you. And I'm like, I don't need therapy. I've read so many books on personal development. and also on self-help books.
Like, I was addicted to information, and I thought, what else can I learn? because I've read so much, and I have done a lot of seminars too. But I never really did one-on-one coaching and therapy.
And that's what you provided for me, and it was an amazing experience. I literally was able to make the transition from my anxiety and be able to really look at it in the face and come back to the present moment with the release of this past anxiety.
It just completely released after doing it, I think it was the second session with you. The second session with you was like, boom. this release happened, and it wasn't a breakthrough. It was a transformation.
Martin Altherr
It was the 3rd session.
Esteban Baez
It was the 3rd session.
🦢
Martin Altherr
It was the 3rd session. I'm good, but I'm not that good. (laughing). And, yes, it's true. In that moment where you know what exactly to tackle, you can tackle it and it's done within a session.
But the way to get there, that is important. It's as important as the transformation itself. because on the way, you make all these breakthroughs. And then after the breakthroughs, you can tackle it, and then you make the transformation, and then you're rid of it for the rest of your life.
Esteban Baez
Awesome. So if you're watching or listening to this podcast, first of all, we wanna thank you for tuning in. And second of all, if you need help, with overcoming fear or anxiety. If you struggle with this, please visit Martin Alter dotcom.
Please make sure you visit the provided link and you'll get a lot of information about Martin's world. I highly recommend a session with Martin because you're gonna have a transformation.
Martin, are there any closing statements before we move on from today's message? Anything you wanna say to the audience?
Martin Altherr
Yeah. Something just dropped into my mind. It's actually when people hear that you can shift your faith. It really sounds like magic to them. And I'm not a magician. I'm definitely not a magician. And I know a technique, the self-transformation code. 20 years ago, I founded it. I created it.
Actually, I got it as a gift. I must put it like that. I've been using it since then, and it does the job, but it does the job because there is a method behind it. There is a system behind it. There is a structure behind it that makes it happen.
And as long you believe it's magic, then it is. To shift fate sounds like magical. Right? It sounds like it and people confront me very often... Just today, actually, I made a TikTok and we'll post it in the next few days about that...
There I show a magic trick to make clear: "Look, that's the magic trick. It looks like magic because it's magical, but there is a trick behind it. When you know the trick, the magic is gone. That's the way it works.
When you understand the way it works and that it works, then you start to understand that can work also for you. And when it worked also for you, then you start to understand. That works really. And that's the funny thing,
But the nice thing is, although my clients know that it's not magic. They often tell me, that there came so much magic into their life through me, and that is a nice statement from my clients, I am really humbly grateful for that because that's amazing. That is what we are working out for the people. Them having magic moments in their life.
Esteban Baez
That's true, man. And I can attest to that. It does feel like magic. at the end of the day when you go through a transformation. And, again, if you're out there and you're trying to have this transformation in your life, and you're ready. You know that you're ready. and you wish something more...
That's what led me to actually have a conversation when Martin was like, even though I was skeptical, I still believed that there was something else missing in my life.
So if you're having that feeling where you're feeling like There's gotta be something more. I really am tired of the way things are. I'm ready to create change in my life. I'm ready to have a transformation in my life, and these are thoughts that you constantly contemplate. Then maybe it's time for you to have a conversation.
So please reach out to us and reach out to Martin at the website that I said, and We'll be glad to talk with you and see how we can help you get on the path to your transformation so you can shift your fate.
So, again, thank you everybody for listening and tuning in. For watching. If you're catching us on a video platform, stay tuned for our next episode where we will discuss these wonderful and amazing topics of self-transformation by using the self-transformation code.