Angela Walker In Conversation - Inspirational Interviews, Under-Reported News
For news lovers everywhere. Join former BBC reporter and broadcast journalist Angela Walker as she engages in thought-provoking conversations with inspirational individuals about current affairs and under-reported issues. We examine stories mainstream media don’t cover: issues of social justice and campaigns that aim to improve society and the world we live in. We look at issues around government, climate change, the environment and world around us. In this podcast, we aim to shed light on important topics that often go unnoticed, providing a platform for insightful discussions with our guests.
From activists and social entrepreneurs to academics and community leaders, these individuals bring their expertise and experiences to the table. Through their stories, we explore the challenges they have overcome, their motivations, and the lessons they have learned along the way. We examine issues of social justice and campaigns that aim to improve society and the world we live in.
If you have an inquiring mind and enjoy BBC Radio 4, The Today Programme, PM, The World At One, Panorama, Despatches, documentaries and interview programmes then this is the place for you.
Listen to be inspired and informed.
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Angela Walker In Conversation - Inspirational Interviews, Under-Reported News
S3 EP11 UK Race Riots - Far Right Extremists Protest Across the Country
Racists are on the rampage in the UK, with over 100 far-right protests planned later today. I talk to Leroy of Caribbean heritage and Mo whose Indian family were immigrants about the impact of these attacks on their communities and the country as a whole. We discuss the historical context of racism in the UK and the need for accountability in the media and social media platforms. We also talk about the trauma and identity crisis caused by these events and the importance of standing up against racism. The conversation touches on the role of politicians, the police, and the need for swift action to address the spread of misinformation and protect vulnerable communities.
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Thank you . As racists ramp up their attacks across the country. I'm journalist Angela Walker, and in this podcast I talk to inspirational people and discuss underreported issues. I'm joined today by Leroy from Berkshire, who's of Caribbean heritage, and Mo K from Brighton, whose family originates in India. Thank you both so much for joining me. We've all seen the footage Racists setting fire to buildings, attacking property and people and, frankly, as a white woman, I'm ashamed to be British. How do you feel, mo, as a woman of Indian heritage, with this going on?
Mo Kanjilal:Well, when my parents emigrated to this country in 1968 and this is what we're seeing is what they lived through. They lived through worrying about bricks being thrown through the window, being spat at in the street. They used to not go out in the dark, they worried about being beaten up. It was the era when people were murdered. It was like it was horrific. And then during the 1970s and 1980s, the Asian community fought back and actually the black and Asian community very much stood together during that and they fought back against all of this. And now here we are.
Mo Kanjilal:Today we are seeing what they lived through in the streets right now, and what frustrates me about this is people say this isn't the country that we are. This isn't who we are. It is and that's what we have to accept and face is that this is British people that are doing this, that think it's totally fine that they're. You know they're riling each other up to go out on the streets and it's racist attacks. It's not being called that by the press. They're saying that there's protesters both sides when there isn't. It's very clear what's going on here. So it makes me feel angry, but also very sad, the fact that they fought back all those years ago. For nothing really.
Angela Walker:I want to talk about some of the language being used in the media shortly, but first of all, leroy, you're a dad. How is this affecting you and your family and your life?
Leroy:I mean, luckily our child is only three, so you know it's oblivious to her, but you worry about children's futures. Uh, if you're an old millennial like me, you you've had this kind of progressive period since childhood where things have every year got better and better and better. But then the last almost a decade you've been watching things progress regress really, better and better and better. But then the last almost a decade you've been watching things progress regress really and get worse and worse, and there's been lots of warning signs and people being called hysterical for pointing out the warning signs. And here we are with the inevitable and um, yeah, I'm really glad that you coined it as a racist riot, because that's exactly what it is and how everyone should think of it.
Leroy:Um, it's not comparable to things like the blm marches or, uh, the just oil mark protest or anything like that. It's a very specific type of riot that's happening and for it to be coined as patriotic or the standard of what british should be is the opposite of what the britain that we've been trying to build, you know, in the same way that our parents, like mo said, have been helping to build, um, a britain that's inclusive for everyone. Um, no, it's our responsibility as well to keep on continuing to build that and to do that and to protect the futures for our kids. We need to make a very conscious and stringent effort to protect what being British really means, and it can't be controlled. That narrative cannot be controlled and dictated by these far-right, racist rioters on the streets, putting everyone in fear.
Angela Walker:I've been quite angered. I've been a journalist for more than 20 years and when I see a banner on TV news saying pro-British protest, that makes me angry, because it's not pro-British, it's racist. And I've been trained that we see both sides of the story and we always give balance. There isn't balance to be given here. We shouldn't be given a platform to these extremists. Let's just, you know, call them racist, because that's what they are. I'm really so upset about it, and that's as a white person. These people do not represent Britain to me. Mo, you're co-creator of Watch this Space. That's a multi-award winning diversity and inclusion company. Never before has your work been more needed. I mean, did you see, like Leroy spoke about warning signs? Did you ever envisage seeing this on our streets?
Mo Kanjilal:Well, as Leroy said, all the signs have been there. So over the last 10 years we've had progressively more and more right wing politicians who use this language in parliament and on the media. They say things like that. You had a prime minister who sadly looks a lot like a lot of people in my family, which is infuriating standing on tv with a sign in front of him saying stop the vote. And you know incredibly racist language used by politicians in the house of parliament, on the media, and so it comes from there. It stems from those places that actually that in the House of Parliament, on the media, and so it comes from there. It stems from those places that actually that's the kind of language that's been used and normalized and the consequences of what we're seeing now. So it's not I mean, it's not just politicians, it's the media too.
Mo Kanjilal:If you look at headlines in some of the newspapers I'll call them that with kind of quotes around the word news, because is it really news? Because what they're doing is riling people up and then looking incredulously as people actually are taking to the streets and things that they've fuelled by the kind of language and rhetoric they've used. So you know, yes, I'm surprised to see it and how it's risen up so quickly, you know, during these last weeks, but in many ways, this has been building for a long time and I think it's been emboldened since the 2016 Brexit vote. That's when I started to experience more racism on the street, because that vote showed people that it's okay to speak out against immigration and when people speak out against immigration, they're not speaking out about white, blonde, ukrainian refugees, refugees. That isn't what they mean. What they mean is black and brown people, and it has never been more obvious than what we're seeing now you're nodding there, leroy.
Angela Walker:What would you like to add to that?
Leroy:she's right about that. You know it's frustrating when people kind of, um, uh, just look you in the face and just lie. And that's the Ukraine scenario, like the way that Ukraineraine, uh, ukraine, um kind of people fleeing their country in the war zone have been treated, is exactly how people should be treated. They, they've been treated like actual human beings, not just subhuman black and brown people, mostly from countries that we've bombed. Um, you know that I'm not remotely. I don't think anyone's really angry at all in the support that ukraine are generally, uh, feeling that people are given money to house people from ukraine. But that's just how human beings should be treated. And when anyone has the audacity to look you in the face or stand up in public and say, oh no, it's not based on race at all, it's, it's infuriating, it's gaslighting and it's quite unbelievable the audacity of it as well um mo.
Angela Walker:What does your family think? I know that you're like second generation, so you know the members of your family that did come over here as immigrants. How are they affected by what's going on right now?
Mo Kanjilal:well, so, they're now quite an elderly generation. So, to be honest, we're not in the family or really sort of talking to them too openly about this. This is painful. This is what they lived through and you know they came, you know they talked to us about this as children. They came here, you know, to give us a better life for a better world, and that's what they fought for so. So to see this happening now it's quite troubling for them. But obviously there's all of my generation, so all of my cousins, where we have every right to be here. We're born here, we're, you know, our lives are here. Yet we get people saying, go back to where you came from. You know, go home shouted at us because of our skin colour. So in the family it's really troubling because also there's then the next generation. So a lot of my cousins have got children. A lot of them are now approaching teenage years. They want to go out with their friends. You know what's going to happen to them on the streets when this is what you're seeing and it's also, as Leroy was saying, the gaslighting.
Mo Kanjilal:So I live in Brighton, a supposedly progressive city. I work in diversity and inclusion. The amount of people that have come up to me in the time, since I said I was doing that, to say, oh, what are you talking about? It's a load of nonsense. Oh, you know, aren't we over all of that now? You know, that's the sort of thing that shows you how far we have to come. And it's interesting, since I've been posting more about it on LinkedIn, where I'm connected to people I used to work with, you know, maybe 10 years ago. I've noticed people. I noticed one person particularly that I always was worried about, looked in my profile and unfollowed me. I've now blocked him, um, and it just shows you that it was always there. It's just people now feel like it's totally out there.
Leroy:They can openly say these things, and that's what's worrying um, and so I just just coming back to you, mentioning about Brexit as well, lots of people were warning heavily about Brexit. The reality is that we don't really trust to be honest, we don't really trust our government enough to protect us, and that was the fear that as soon as the reins were taken off by leaving in Brexit, we'd have these sort of issues again. And people were said no, you're just being extreme, have these fears. When Brexit happened, it was the first time I had a sinking feeling in my stomach the day of the result, because I just knew. I knew this was the direction we were going to go and I just knew it.
Leroy:Ultimately, it was the person, the people who were, almost, if you ignore everything what brexit was about, just look at who wanted it and you might say people who are far, far left wanted it and people who are far right wanted it, and politics is a circle, they all meet in the middle.
Leroy:At that point, and when you and that was a warning sign enough for me, and the fact nigel farage, who is a traditional racist, to be a director of you, um, the fact that he wantsage, who is a traditional racist, to be direct with you, the fact that he wants it so much for me alarm bell. You probably shouldn't want that, and everyone that supported it held his ideas and his beliefs, so I knew it wasn't going to be in my interest or in the interest of the kind of Britain that I want to see. And we've been on that. You could say we've been on that trajectory since since david cameron decided to take up that bet with nigel farad, um. But we have been on on that negative trajectory since then, um, and we're hoping that we can get off this ride or we can change the direction. Ultimately, like the stock market, cultures go up and down, but I really hope we've near to rock bottom at the moment well, we've got more than 100.
Angela Walker:I'm going to call them events, but far right, protests are planned across the uk tonight and of course, it spreads like wildfire because it's spreading through social media and it's being spread through a lot of accounts which are being traced to other countries, because there are other countries, like r, for example, where it's in their interest to see unrest, to see our democracy undermined. You know, what can we do about this spreading of this misinformation? It is misinformation because it's like. You know, the spark was the terrible murder of those children in Southport. They weren't killed by an Islamic immigrant, but that was the catalyst, wasn't it? And it's like misinformation. I mean, how can we compete against that?
Mo Kanjilal:So it's interesting. I have a love-hate relationship with social media. Amazing things happen through social media, the connections you can make. We've all met each other through social media. A lot of things with our business has been up that way. We launched it in lockdown, so a lot of things. Thugs coming to Brighton. There are also several counter protests arranged, so there's lots of different groups that are doing that.
Mo Kanjilal:But there's like my phone has been going just pinging all day because of all the misinformation, even since yesterday. Some people yesterday were saying they're already here today and it's like they weren't, and so there's all of this misinformation flying around all over the place. I've also got cousins in India, so I have a whats. I've also got cousins in India. I have a WhatsApp group with my cousins in India. I haven't seen a lot of them for years.
Mo Kanjilal:The misinformation that's being spread in India as well about this, the kinds of things that are being all over the news over there. It's just whipping up all of this frenzy around it and a lot of misinformation, and it just makes me wonder whose interest is this in? Who's fueling all this? And was it actually anything to do with those poor girls and their families? You know what they're going through. Seeing all of this happening. Was it actually anything to do with that? Or was this just something that was waiting for an excuse for all of this stuff to be, um, emboldened and kind of spread like that? That's what it makes me wonder about. I know it sounds very conspiracy serious, but you know it feels like it's in a lot of other countries interest for there to be this kind of division in the UK. And you mentioned Nigel Farage. You know what is he actually involved in? Who funds him? Who funds what's his name? Tommy Robinson. You know what's actually going on here.
Angela Walker:That's what it makes me think about what I think is interesting and there was this catalyst of this devastating child murders is that it's all happened within a couple of weeks of the new labour government, who seemed to be like more progressive. Why is it that has happened now and when? There were other events like previous which could have been a catalyst, but it's just this particular moment in time. It's almost like it's undermining the, the new government, and you wonder why that the timing has been now and it's just spread like this series of coordinated attacks. Really, um, leroy, what do you think can be done now? How can we take control of this situation?
Leroy:I think kia starman's got a very difficult job ahead of him at the moment. Um, and there has to be accountability, uh, both in the media and especially social media, and I think what happens every time something happens with misinformation there's a meeting with the heads of Facebook and Twitter and everything else, and from the response of Elon Musk recently, we've seen that they don't care at all.
Angela Walker:Elon Musk just said the UK is verging on civil war. I mean he's wading in to suggest that we're on the edge of a war?
Mo Kanjilal:And people have been leaving Twitter whatever you call it, like today, more than I've ever seen Everyone's saying they're leaving it.
Leroy:And it's been happening for last year. People have not been buying Teslas because of his opinions on social media. He again is an old-school scientific racist is what Elon Musk is from his own comments. But, yeah, there has to be accountability and I think actually Keir Starmer needs to move very, very quickly. Because of the power of social media and people like Elon Musk who just don't care, there has to be very strong punishments that are swift and Keir Starmer's rightly or wrongly he's often known for being very swift and quite ruthless, so we need to see some of that ruthlessness now with the actions that he makes. I don't quite think it's probably quite right to ban Twitter and things like this. People should choose if they want to be on there or not but there does need to be some serious restrictions and punishments for allowing this misinformation to happen, because this has been the most extreme case and the swiftest case of very obvious misinformation having a tangible effect on the country in which we live in.
Angela Walker:And you know, I think we have to talk about accountability, because if you print misinformation, you can, you know, potentially go to prison for it. So we have to be able to hold people to account and say that anything that you publish on social media should be treated the same, I personally think, as if you print it in a newspaper. Maybe that's the way to go, but of course it's policing. It is the real challenge. There's talk tonight of vigilantes going out to protect their places of worship. They've caught wind. Their mosque could come under attack. So groups of young men are going out and they want to protect their places of worship, their special buildings and and so on. I don't know, is that the right way to go? I mean, are they putting themselves in harm's way? I just, it's secondary, isn't it mo?
Mo Kanjilal:yeah, so I live quite near um a mosque and I know that, like I said, there's always counter protests tonight in brighton. Um, it makes me feel uh worried for those people because, though the thugs are looking for that, they're looking for trouble and like, what are people going to get caught up in? But equally, I understand that they want to protect. You know, they want to defend themselves. So it's a really difficult thing. I've had, you know, I could say, people tonight in in this city, some, you know, there's loads of people that want to go and fight back and show that we're fighting back, but then what you're getting yourself involved in if that happens, um, and I also think, going back to the point of what to do, I think I do agree, I think kia soma needs to.
Mo Kanjilal:This is this cannot wait, like this needs action right now. It needs politicians pulling together and condemning this as racism, which I haven't seen like a stronger response from that from all around, and they need to decide, like, what they're going to do. So a while ago, not that long ago, the just off world press protesters got really long sentence, you know, is the same thing happening here? Is it proportionate? What's great? Because if it's not, then we need to call that out for what it is. So it's about the policing and the law and order as well, and there needs to be a grip taken on this incredibly quickly. I don't know what's going on today, but I hope they're on it and they're going to do something about this and try and take control of it.
Angela Walker:Yeah, I think it was five years in jail, wasn't it for the Just Stop Oil protesters. So we'll be interested to see. I think they are whizzing people through the courts. People who've been involved in the riots are getting through the court system Like they've sped that up, so it'll be interesting to see what kind of sentences those people get. Leroy, is there anything else that you'd like to add to the conversation?
Leroy:Just going back to what Mo was saying and what you were saying about people fighting back on the streets and taking it back into their own hands. Fighting back on the streets, everyone knows we should just leave the police to do that kind of thing. People are not Batman. The police should be allowed to take care of those issues. Whether or not they feel there are enough police and the police are acting quick enough and we see they're all stretched is one thing as well. And you see shops being burnt down. And saw a guy on tv in belfast today just stood there who just said he didn't care. He didn't care that the guy across the street had his as his shop burnt down because he's muslim, because he's brown, and he had. And the guy was saying how can you not care? He's literally your neighbor, so I just don't care about it, I don't want him here, I want him out. He said it's like nazi germany is what it's like on the streets at the moment.
Leroy:And also we're having a a traumatic reaction here, which is why all of our phones are ringing, because if you grew up in the 80s or 90s and your parents grew up in the 50s and 60s and 70s, they have this trauma of these memories. They've passed it on to you through telling you the issues. You may have had the experience yourself in the 80s and 90s or 2000s. And now it's happening again and I hadn't even realized how traumatic emotionally this would be for me and my phone, just like Mo's, my phone, is rung non-stop all weekend with people telling me stories of when they were beating up by racists before, when their parents were harassed, and it is a really traumatizing thing that's happening here and, on top of it, being traumatizing and making you want to fight.
Leroy:I think there was a note that there's a feeling that in some communities they, when they used to get harassed by the national front uh, combat 18 that their parents weren't fighting back enough. They were just let's keep our heads down, let's just not say anything. And now people were like no, I'm not gonna. We are gonna fight back. This is my country as much as anyone else is. I'm gonna fight back and I think, unfortunately, some people get in trouble doing that um. But that is that ongoing trauma that's happening and that we kind of feel um from those past experiences.
Angela Walker:Mo, would you like to add anything to that?
Mo Kanjilal:Um, just to add that, uh, if anyone's listening to this and they are going to fight back, please be careful. Because we've already talked about the police. I'll be totally open with you. There's a lot of mistrust of the police as well, and a lot of black and brown communities. So, you know, who can we really trust? This is, you know, this is a real crisis in our society and it is difficult to know who to trust when it comes to these things. So I'd just say to anyone that is going to go to any of these counter protests to be really, really careful of these counter protests. To be really, really careful and that's what I've been saying to people I know that are going through is like stick together, be really careful, get out there as soon as you feel like it's unsafe yeah, because you've seen already, pete, I think I saw a muslim guy have a weapon already be sent down.
Leroy:Um, so it doesn't matter what you're there for, you shouldn't be carrying a weapon. Um, having this kind of hero feeling don't, don't go out and do that, stay at home. Um. And the other thing is about. You know, this is knocking everyone's self-identity um at the moment, whether it's your identity as a white person, feeling you're being betrayed by white people who are damaging the image of you as a white person, or whether you're a black and brown person who's been repeatedly told to go home and that, what's it? If a dog is born in a barn, it doesn't make it a horse. That kind of nonsense, like you know, it's constantly attacking your identity. You have to be really stubborn about what your vision of being British is and don't let someone else control the narrative of that when they don't share your, your view of what what Britain should look like. You've to be really stubborn and hold on to your identity uh, do you know what makes it's really hard?
Angela Walker:like, obviously I'm a white woman, but when I see this behavior it makes me ashamed, but it but what's frightening is that we've got these people in our midst and I feel like I didn't even know that there was this horrible underbelly of thugs and racists just bubbling away, waiting for the opportunity to come out of the shadows and behave like this. I'm shocked, actually. I'm really shocked by it, because I've got the luxury, really, of being a white woman who's never faced racism, you know, and so I. I feel like I've, um, I've lived with my head in the sand all these years and to see what this behavior is like, it's really shocked me actually. It hasn't shocked me.
Mo Kanjilal:It we knew. We knew these people were there. That's. That's probably one of the most infuriating responses. Sorry that I'm seeing is we didn't know, but it's been in front of us. We do know. I saw somebody post on my linkedin post actually saying the thing is, those same people are now just going back to work. They're in our offices, they're in our you know public services, they're just around us. That's the reality. It's just that people are feeling emboldened to behave like that and speak out like that.
Leroy:But the if you look at the amount of people that they're here the the thing with british racism because it is, as angela was saying, kind of hidden a bit.
Leroy:No one, no one ever says yes, I'm a racist it's very rare someone ever says that. But when you're applying for a job or when you're not given the benefit of the doubt, these are people who have racist ideas, but they're not being out about it and it makes you feel paranoid and you tell other people about it and they're like oh no, don't worry about it, it's probably not that and you know it's that, you've had enough experience of it. Um, so it might even be beneficial in a way that so many it turns out like child carers and uh, counselors and this sort of thing are being sent to prison for this kind of interaction, because we're actually filtering through and getting rid of a lot of them out of society. So the more people that go out and get arrested rioting or online spreading hate, the better. In a way, as long as we respond to it positively, it can actually be a beneficial thing for all of us.
Angela Walker:Well, thank you both so much for coming on and talking to me today and, you know, just stay safe. Thank you, thank you.
