The Roles We Play In Our Relationships with Nicola Navon

Do you ever feel like you and your partner are stuck in a rut, repeating the same unhealthy patterns and dynamics? Are you longing for more playfulness, connection, and intimacy, but not sure how to break free from those old habits?

In this episode, I'm joined by Nicola Navon, a relationship empowerment and intimacy mentor, to explore the common dynamics that can hinder connection in relationships and discover how to create a more playful and fulfilling partnership.

In this engaging discussion, we discussed the importance of balancing masculine and feminine energies within a relationship, regardless of gender and the role of self-awareness and personal responsibility in transforming unhealthy patterns.

We explore the importance of recognizing and honoring each other's needs and desires, the practical strategies for improving communication and creating a deeper sense of connection and the transformative power of play and vulnerability in creating intimacy and joy.

In this episode:

• How to use playfulness and humor to navigate conflict and create a more lighthearted dynamic.
• Why playfulness and humor are essential for navigating conflict and creating a more lighthearted connection.
• How to break free from the "mothering" dynamic and foster a sense of equality and mutual respect.
• How to shift from a victim mentality to an empowered approach to relationships.

Connect with Nicola:

Website: https://www.nicolanavon.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nicolanavon/?hl=en

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nicole.navon/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nicolanavon

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Transcript

Have you noticed some interesting relationship dynamics that you and your partner have? You've probably noticed one of you sort of plays a certain role, while the other plays a different role, and then all of a sudden it switches the next day. You also probably notice there are times where maybe you're a little more aggressive with your energy, and the other's a little more like, "Ah," and vice versa.

Well, today, we're going to be talking about relationship dynamics, what's happening, and how we can start to shift them. Welcome to the Balance Code Podcast, a place for high achievers to step outside the hamster wheel of day-to-day life and start learning tools for more balance. I'm your host, Katie Rustler, and I will be guiding you on this journey of discovering your balance code.

Welcome back to the podcast! I have Nicola Navon, and we are going to be discussing some interesting relationship dynamics that tend to come out when a couple is together, especially high achievers. So, Nicola, thank you for being here. I would love to hear a little bit more about you, where you are in the world, who you serve, and what you do.

Nicola: Beautiful. Yes, thank you so, so much, Katie, for that beautiful introduction. So excited to dive in! So, as you mentioned, yeah, I'm Nicola Navon, and in my work, I'm a relationship empowerment and intimacy mentor. Now, what does that mean? Yeah, I help individuals and couples deepen intimacy in their relationships, feel more empowered in their relationships, and bring a little more play into the intimacy, play into the relating, so it doesn't always feel so heavy. And so, on the back end, yeah, when we think about empowerment, we do some work with the masculine and feminine energies. What do I mean by that? On the masculine side, having both parties, or from working one-on-one, one party learning how to assert their boundaries, learning to assert their needs, what is it they need, what is it they desire, and creating safety for themselves so that on the feminine side, they can tune into their hearts, they can tune into their intuition, they can be vulnerable and share from the heart.

Katie: I love that we're going to have this discussion because what you just shared isn't actually gender-specific. We use masculine and feminine energies because we understand those from a certain framework, but you can be a woman with—and you do have—both masculine and feminine energy, and you can be a man with both energies. And it doesn't mean anything is wrong; it's actually normal to have that balance in our balance code. So, let's talk about what are some of the relationship dynamics you notice in high-achieving couples. 

Nicola: And this is really good. I'm going to take a pause, let it simmer, and see all the good nuggets that I want to bring out here. A big dynamic that I see often in my work is when you're deep into the relationship, especially when there are kids involved, yeah, or if it's a couple that's working in a business together, yeah, or doing a big project together. Oftentimes, the relating revolves around the kids, the to-dos, yeah, the work, and so it starts to feel heavy. And I see a lot of my work—couples—struggle to reinvigorate that spark that they once had at the beginning of the relationship. And now, many people, they think, "Oh, you're either going to have passionate relating or you're going to have a stable relationship." Yeah, and what—sometimes it can feel more like a roommate kind of thing. And so, an area that I focus on in my work is how do we make the relating more fun and playful, especially when it comes to conflict and heavier topics. So, for example, like, let's say my partner says that he will clean the house, but he doesn't clean the house, yeah, in the time frame, and he said that he'll do it now. One approach, yeah, what I could do is be serious: "Hey, you said you'd clean the house. Why didn't you do it? Why aren't you following through?" It doesn't feel good. Yeah, and it goes into this almost like a mothering dynamic, which is very common. I've been there many times. You know, hello, my hand is fully raised here. And so, instead, it's like, how do we learn how to invite them into doing what we want them to do but using playfulness. So, it could be something like, okay, this is my flavor, this may not be everyone's—yes—I'll give a little example. Maybe if I'm feeling really beautiful and royal, and I want to play into that energy, and I get home and I'm like, "Babe, the Queen arrived, and wow, she was so excited to walk into her palace, but it's feeling more like a barn." Yeah.

Katie: Oh my God, I love this! It's like—love that! Oh my gosh, like, "Walked into my palace, but it feels like a barn!" How can you not, as a partner, laugh, but also totally get what was being said in that moment, be like, "You're right."

Nicola: You know, this is what I love about humor. What it does is, as many people think that humor can make it seem like you're not serious, yeah, or not—your partner might not think that you mean business when you do, but it actually can be very pointed. That is clear as it says, "The house is a mess," but it's playing into a little energy. I'm feeling queenly, I walk into my palace, I want to greet my king, I'm feeling like I'm in a barn, what can we do about it? It creates more of a subtle opening for them to respond as it falls to, you know, get in the defense.

Katie: Right, right. Which is so easy for us to become reactive when we feel like we've done something wrong, especially to upset our partner. You know, we don't want to—usually don't want to—upset them. I love that you brought up the mothering part of that, to that kind of nagging mothering role, which I find is offset by the pissed-off teenager who doesn't want to—"I don't want to, and I don't have to." So, like, it's like you get this, like, dynamic in a relationship, and the couple will just come to blows at each other because of this, you know, "I'm your mother." "I don't want a mother, but I also need reminders of what to do, right?" And then it just becomes a cycle. So how do you help people break out of a bad dynamic?

Nicola: Yeah, yeah, this is really good. And I wanted to circle back to one thing that you said, Katie, because it's so true. It then—it creates that, like, teenager energy. And, um, it causes resentment in the partner that's being mothered or that's being fathered. And you never want to do that. You never want to use—I always tell people—you don't want to use shame, you don't want to use judgment, yeah, you want it to come from a place of playfulness and vulnerability. And now, to offset that, here's where the energies come in. I'm going to break it down in a way that's super, super simple to understand. Yeah, because the mothering, for me, yeah, has come from my desire to control my partner, my desire to control the direction of the relationship, to control how they're showing up in the relationship. And that is, uh, for me, it's—it's conditioning. It's conditioning from our society's idea that we can control everything. And so, when we work with our healthy energy, so whether you're a woman or man or gender-nonconforming individual, your healthy masculine—that's your ability to hold yourself for safety, to know you're going to be okay. So, for example, if my partner isn't showing up in the way I desire, can I be okay without them? Not to say, "Oh, yes, you're going to do something, and I'm going to leave." That's not a healthy dynamic. But can I—am I from a place of dependency, or am I responding from a place of empowerment? "This isn't feeling good. What I'd like is X, Y, Z. You're not doing..." Yeah. "How does that feel for you?" And giving them a chance to show up, get—letting time show you. But if you don't feel secure in yourself and your ability to take care of yourself, that's where people go into the mothering dynamic because you're unsafe without, uh— The couple, though. Yeah, we're all right. I'll say that—no.

Katie: Definitely. And I agree with you. I think if we shift from a place of trying to empower each other, then it isn't so much, "Let me drag you along," or "Let me be dragged along" kind of thing. And it's—it is more of a, "How do we, as a couple, work on this problem that keeps coming up?" You know, the barn. "How can we work on the barn so it feels like a kingdom for both of us?" 

Nicola: And that's also where it's really, really important to tune into the feminine energy, the heart, yeah, being vulnerable instead of reacting from trigger. "That hurt my feelings. Uh oh, babe, when we were at that party the other day, and we were talking in a group of people, and you looked and made eye contact with every single person but me, that hurt my pretty little heart and made me feel like you don't value me." And I won't—oh, that's not true. So what—why don't you give me a little—give me some affirmations. Give me a little—all right, 

Katie: Let me—show me love. Show me love. Yep.

Katie: Another dynamic I'd love to explore with you is the rescuer and the victim. And I find with high achievers, this one is so easy to fall into: the victim role of, like, "Why is this happening to me? Why are things not working out?" You know, bad day, you hit every red light, you're late for everything, and it's like, "Why is this happening to me?" And the rescuer who's like, "I'll take over and manage all the things." And it's not always that it's a one-way street. It's like we like to play role reversal with each other in this, like, "I'm it one day, and the next day you're the rescuer, and then I'm..." You know, how do we break that cycle? Because that one I find sometimes is really ingrained from childhood: rescuer, victim, and then victim, rescuer.

Nicola: Yeah, totally resonates, Katie. And it even makes me think about something I'm practicing actively now in my life is to remember that I am not a victim to everything. And how do I see the gift in everything? The opportunity to either assert my needs, assert my desires, or an opportunity to work on my own expression. How am I coming across? And this is why I love—in my work, we play with people's communication expression. Not always using humor, but a different range of it: tone, pauses, your cadence, what words you use, what words you don't use, your body language—all that stuff makes such a big difference. And working—I'm going up with a little tension here, but I will bring it back, yeah—is remembering, like, we are not the victim. And where's the opportunity? And where can we play with and shift how we're showing up to see how it may impact the collective dynamic? Because usually—usually always—in relationships, there are three energies if there are two people: the energy of one party, the energy of the other party, and then the energy of the co-created unit, the relation. And so, each person can contribute to that collective energy. And when we shift how we are expressing something, it may shift how our partner receives us. They may be angry one moment, maybe we respond with something really sweet from the heart, and they might soften. And so that's the big—that, you know—not remembering we are not a victim, remembering the gift. And then, for me, I feel what I see in my work is the rescuer dynamic can often come from guilt, this feeling about needing to say, "I need to fix, I need to help." And it's still this element of control, like, "I can actually make someone be a better person, help them." We can empower each other to thrive if a couple, or each other, to continue to be incredible achievers in the world. But it's like, how can we see them as an equal and empower them as opposed to uneven power dynamics? "I'm better than you. I'm going to save you. You're less than. I'm more intelligent." All these comparisons that couples can make.

Katie: Hey there! I just wanted to take a moment to interrupt this interview and ask you a question: Are you ready to take your relationship to the next level? If so, I have a free and unique assessment that I've created to help you pinpoint the areas of your relationship that need a little TLC. Whether it's improving communication, building your trust, enhancing intimacy, or aligning on your future goals, this assessment covers it all. It's called the Level 10 Relationship Assessment, and it's like a road map to your dream relationship. So why wait? Go book it! It's free, easy, and can make a world of difference in your relationship. Click the link in our show notes below to get started on booking your Level 10 Relationship Assessment. Now back to the interview!

Katie: That is such a good point that often it's—whether we realize it or not—when we're rescuing, it's, "I am better, and I can take care of you; you can't take care of yourself," perpetuating that dynamic. 

Nicola: And, you know, it's something that just came up when you were speaking. I was thinking about, Katie is, um, oftentimes, I feel, in our society, we don't normalize all the human emotions that come with humanity. "Oh, you had—you had a bad day? You're feeling a little depressed? I need to fix you. Something's wrong with you." When it's like, "No, no, everyone can feel sad at times, everyone can feel lonely at times. That's part of being a human being." And it's normalizing these emotions that are part of our experience so we don't feel like something's broken, we're broken, we're wrong, right? 

Katie: Not needing to fix everything, every negative or sort of neutral experience you or your partner has.

Katie: The last dynamic I'd really like to unpack with you is the hyper-independent, which tends to happen in high achievers, where both are like, "I don't really need you. I want you around." And maybe in the beginning of the relationship, there was that excitement, but there's that point where it's like we're kind of on two separate train tracks. We don't need each other, but we're here because we're used to being together or kind of scared of being apart. How do we break out of the hyper-independent nature of that dynamic that can happen?

Nicola: This is super common, and this also—it is a reason why I came to this work for my own life, my own journey. For me, what I believe to be true—I would be curious to hear how it lands—is the hyper-independent energy is created by our society. It's—it's a masculine energy but can be an unhealthy, um, depiction of the masculine. And so what I feel is many people go the route of hyper-independence. Also, many women go this route of, "I need to take care of myself. I need to figure it all out. I'm not going to be able to rely on anyone. No one's going to be there for me. It's a harsh world out there." Yeah. We've all had things that have hardened our hearts and—close people wound us. And it's not—it's blocking our ability to receive, because we can't actually receive when we are doing everything. And so it's, how do we feel more safe to work with that energy? Okay, where does this come from? It comes from fear, comes from not being able to receive, not being able to surrender to the flow of life, not being able to take pause, reflect. It's hard when you have a lot going on, you are a successful woman or man in your career, yeah, and you are focused and driven, but how do you also come back to that Yin state, that feminine energy? Go inside, reflect. I'm going to reflect. I am going to be grateful for all the things I've achieved in my life. I'm going to think about how I want to handle this situation, and I'll think about how I'm feeling about my relationship, how I'm feeling about that argument we had last week, and what I want to say about it. Uh, where do I need support? And, like, allowing ourselves to reflect on our lives, to feel, and like, "Where can I receive more?" And then, when someone—an easy way to tell is, like, someone pays you a compliment, can you pause, say "Thank you," and receive it? Do you believe it? Because oftentimes, we don't. If we don't believe it, we're going to pay one right back. Yeah, it's like, okay, I'm going to—addition—my back. If someone's doing something, how can we allow ourselves to receive? And that comes from deep empowerment, self-love. "I am worthy to have my partner do X, Y, and Z for me. It's okay. I'm not too much, too needy to ask for this." That relationship, to want more physical touch, to want more connection, communication—whenever.

Katie: Yes, I love that you pointed out the needy part because often I think when you're hyper-independent, you're scared to come across as needy. So even basic needs—a hug, well, words of approbation—are like, "Uh, I'm going to come across as, you know, too much, and then he or she—you're not going to be the one around me that much. So I'm just not going to bring it up at all, and I'll try to fulfill my own needs, but then there's no relationship there, there's no deeper connection. You mentioned at the very beginning that play and having fun together—and I think that's one of the biggest ways to break that dynamic of hyper-independence, is to have fun, let down the barriers, laugh together, be silly, make mistakes and—and do it in harmony together. I think that's essential. 

Nicola: It's so—you know, our relationships are our biggest source of growth and fulfillment. So when we can really nurture them and support each other, describe and not view our partners as a competition, but view it as, like, what can they bring to the relationship that's different than what I bring, create this beautiful, amazing-tasting soup together of how we are in the world, how we share the world together.

Katie: Yes, yes. This discussion has been so eye-opening and wonderful reminders as well of how easy it is for us to fall into certain dynamics, but how simple it is to get out of them, right? Like everything you've shared has been really practical and simple, and yet I'm like, I know that people—like, "Is it really that easy?" But try—why not try and see? Make it fun, shift into empowerment, shift the way that you talk to each other, play again. I mean, that's—that's all you can do.

Nicola: You hit the nail on the head, Katie, because it is simple. Yes, it's—making shifts to—simple shifts: the way you move, the way you communicate, the way you express. And it has a world of difference.

Katie: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. If people, after this episode, want to connect with you and go, like, "Hold on, I've got more questions," or, you know, "This dynamic is what we fall into, what would play look like for us?" How can they find you?

Nicola: Yeah, the best way to find me is on Instagram. So it's @NicolaNavon. It's my handle. Or my website, nicolanavon.com.

Katie: Excellent. I will make sure those links are in the show notes below. Nicola, this was—yeah, like I said, wow. Like I'm going, "Yes, yes, yes!" I love how practical you made this. That's so important to me on this podcast, that when guests come on, that you just make it practical for us to, like, "Okay, I can walk away from this episode and start using these tools immediately." And you did that. Thank you so, so much.

Nicola: My absolute, absolute pleasure. And I will just say, guess, Katie, like everything, it's a skill. It takes practice. Like you go to the gym, you work on your communication. That's all it is.

Katie: Absolutely. I agree 100%. So, dear listener, here's to finding our balance code. Thank you for listening to today's episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Take a moment to leave a rating and a review on your favorite podcast platform. That helps other listeners just like you to find this podcast, too. Want to connect and learn how we can work together? Check out the links in the show notes below. Discovering your balance code doesn't have to be a one-person journey; you can have a team, and I'd love to support you. So here's to finding our balance code!