The Truth About Personal Growth with Dr. Kathleen Perry

Are you tired of feeling like you're not enough, like there's always something you need to fix or improve about yourself? The personal growth journey can be incredibly rewarding, but it can also be filled with pressure, self-doubt, and a constant feeling of striving for an elusive "better" version of yourself.

In this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Kathleen Perry, a coach and former chiropractic sports physician, who challenges the conventional narrative around personal growth. Dr. Perry shares her own journey of self-discovery and offers a refreshing perspective on embracing wholeness and finding contentment in the present moment.

In this insightful conversation, Dr. Perry highlights the fallacy of the "Swiss cheese" model of personal growth, which suggests that we are inherently broken and need to be fixed and the importance of recognizing our innate wholeness and perfection, even as we continue to learn and grow.

We delve into the power of self-reflection and introspection in uncovering our authentic selves. the importance of finding meaning and purpose in our lives, not through external achievements, but through connecting with our core selves and the practical strategies for embracing our imperfections and living a more authentic and fulfilling life.

In this episode: 

• ​​How to recognize and challenge the belief that you are inherently flawed or incomplete
• Why true personal growth is about developing skills and expanding your capabilities
• How to reframe trauma and challenges as opportunities for growth and self-discovery,
• The importance of connecting with your inner wisdom and intuition

Connect with Dr. Kathleen: 

Website: https://www.drkathleenperry.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kathleen.g.perry.1/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa3jLew8BduIXdKXYlSs0Hw

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Transcript

Welcome back to the podcast! I have talked before on this podcast about the sort of progress trap of personal growth, but today I have Dr. Kathleen Perry, and we're going to be discussing what some of the truths about personal growth are that maybe we're not talking about enough, so that it helps us feel a little more normal as we go through the process.

Welcome to the Balance Code Podcast, a place for high achievers to step outside the hamster wheel of day-to-day life and start learning tools for more balance. I'm your host, Katie Rustler, and I will be guiding you on this journey of discovering your balance code.

Katie: Dr. Kathleen Perry, thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to hear what you have to share and how our discussion plays out, but take a moment, please, to introduce yourself; share a little bit about what you do, where you are, and the type of people you work with.

Dr. Kathleen: Katie, thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me to join you today. I'm excited to see where we go with our exploration of this cool topic. I think it's going to bring a lot of value to people. Um, I have been many iterations of my career, you know, kind of a high achiever. I started out as a chiropractic sports physician over 35 years ago. I did that for 10 years. Then, me, myself, I ended up in my early 30s, and it was no longer orthopedic and sports issues, but hormonal issues. And so I dove into a functional medicine approach for, you know, women going through that phase of life. Um, then that morphed, I guess, a little bit, and really now I focus my time as a coach, but that has been a theme that has informed everything that I've done. So, I work with people who are... the theme seems to be sort of at a crossroads, and that can happen in your career, in all the domains, in your relationship, you could be an empty nester. It happens at all phases of life, as I'm sure you see with your clients. You know, first one being getting out of high school or college and trying to figure out like, "What am I going to do with my life?" Um, and so, so that's what I do. Um, and as a coach, I kind of walk along beside people and help them really see who they are and what they're made of. And that's why the topic of personal growth has, you know, so much resonance for me. Um, I would have called myself a seeker for a long, long, long time, like there was some better version of me that I was always trying to create. And you know, first it was in the domain of career and... and it was that way for a long time. Um, also an underpinning, kind of a spiritual, like, you know, like there's somewhere to get to spiritually. And really what I've come to see is the finger points back, back inward, like we already are, we already are everything we need, everything. We're perfect. And there's no... and it's not to say that you don't develop a skill or that you, you know, learn to communicate better, um, but all of that comes from that learning when it comes from "I already am." I already am all that I need, all that I... to have, you know, a beautiful life. It's right here, and it's always been here, but we're always looking out there. So that's what I do, point people back to, you know, home, to who they are, what they're made of.

Katie: I love that your focus has shifted in so many ways, but the theme always stayed the same; really helping people, helping people to, you know, take back control of their own health, their mental health, and knowing, um, like you said, the truth is with them, within them. It's not something they have to seek out. But one of the struggles with the personal growth world is that, um, it's always about what that guru or that thought leader is telling you to think, to be, to do, to reflect on. "Here are the activities that I'm doing, you should try these things." So what are you noticing about how... how easily it is for us to give away our power in personal growth to that person? We're going to look at them there, that's how I want to be.

Dr. Kathleen: Yeah, well, well I would say that when we see that there's ultimately no need for personal growth at all, then you're not outside seeking for a guru or a... and it doesn't mean that you won't... that you won't have a relationship with someone who is on a... not a personal growth path to share the journey with you, because the journey is, to me, it... I just launched a six-month program called the Self Reclamation Project. So would someone call me a... a guru or a... you know, I'm offering a program that's a how-to. It's not about that at all. It's a... this is an exploration with a group of people. I happen to be the one that put the content together, brought the people together, act as a guide, but again, it's just pointing everybody to their own innate... always been there, innate wisdom. And the focus is to see that there is no need for personal development because we already are everything that we need to live a content and beautiful life. So... and I think, but it's tempting. I mean, what it is, is very, very common, Katie, what you're referring to, that we think we need to get somewhere and that there's someone that has a formula, someone that's done it, someone who's on the outside, their life looks like what we want, and therefore, "Let me go ask them, how can I have that?" 

Katie: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Very honestly, their habits, and we go, "I want to be like that. I want to have that, too." Well, let me ask you though, then, so what is the difference for you between personal growth and a mastery of a skill set? Like, you know, breaking certain habits and developing certain habits you... you desire to have. What... what is the difference for you in those two things?

Dr. Kathleen: Yeah, that is a beautiful question. Um, because a skill... it comes from like not a lack of... "I'm a person, and I need to develop this me, personal sense of self, me, separate identity, who's apart from all of life that needs improving." The skill development is about the thing, okay? So if I want to be a more helpful, transformative coach, I don't have to fix me. I go out and learn the skill of coaching. So it's about the thing. It's about the activity. Could be, for someone listening, about the project that they're creating. It could be about depth of connection in their marriage or their relationship. The partners don't need fixing. They don't need personal development, but they might need, and/or could benefit from, improved communication skills. E.g., listening. I know, for me, I could always, always, you know, improve on that ability to listen.

Katie: As you were talking, I was picturing like a cartoon character standing in front of us with like holes in them, right? You know, like if it was a 2D character, sections of them removed. And I think we grow through life believing that's us, that we're not whole, there's pieces missing, and that personal growth helps to fill in and, and you know, make that person whole again. And what you're saying is, "No. That is a lie that we've been fed for generations." We are whole. When you want to do what most people call personal growth, what it is, is you want to develop a certain skill set on certain things, whether... whatever the habit is, whatever the... the thing you want to develop, that's separate from whether you're whole or not. That is, you are whole. So therefore, that's like the jacket you wear, or the hat on top of... you are completely whole. There is no dents or anything missing. So I... I... I totally agree with you. At first, as you were bringing up early, I was like, "Oh, how do I feel about this? What do I think about this?" But how you just described it is the great fallacy of personal growth, and that there's something missing in us. Instead, you're saying, "No, you are completely whole." What is the skill that you want to learn and improve on? And that... that's so much easier than, "Oh my God, I'm... there's, you know, I'm less of a person."

Dr. Kathleen: Well, yeah, it's easier because it's the truth, right? It's that we aren't... I love the... I love the image I got in my head of this like Swiss cheese, yeah, with it... with the head on it, right? Um, we aren't broken. We don't need fixing. There aren't holes that need to be plugged up or filled in. And there are... think cool shit that we want to create in the world, yeah? You know, and... and we just go out... go about doing that from the foundation of, "I'm already whole and have access to the intelligence of the whole universe. I have an in-built, innate wisdom that I can rely on." And kind of what you implied, we've been fed a different story, and it's nobody's fault, but that... that's just the way it is. So we're looking in the wrong direction. I would look... we're looking out there for... for that thing that's going to fix us, make us a better... and me too, because that's what I did for years and years. Then I had a big wake-up call. Mine happened to be four years ago, the death of my husband.

Dr. Kathleen: And I thought, you know, I talked to a grief counselor even before he died. He was in hospice and at home for a period of time, and I was filled with a lot of anxiety, and she was really helpful. But remember, Katie, she said to me, "Well, who are you going to be when you're no longer Mrs. Mike Perry?" And I thought, "Well, that's weird," because I didn't... like, I mean I had a career. Well, what I found out was, COVID hit, my husband died, and I woke up one day and I'm like, "I'm not that. I'm not a healer, an entrepreneur," like, you know, and... but I... I was... I think... I lived my life thinking that the better I got at that, you know, that would fill me up, that would make me... I'd help more people, I'd have more impact. No. No, no. I'm so... I went through a period of about 18 months that really was kind of an undoing, sort of a deconstruction of this identity of me, me the separate me over here, that was like the Swiss cheese. Yep. And... and I was striving and seeking all my life, and I started seeing, and I'm still seeing it deeper and deeper, that there's nothing wrong, there's nowhere to get, but there's cool things I'm up to. I create programs and I... I want to continue to have impact with my clients, uh, but it's not from a place of a me, an identity that somehow has to get better.

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Katie: Yes, and... and thank you for sharing your personal story. I... what the phase of, like you sort of described, I call the cocoon phase, and I think we go through it... my whole vision of growth in general is we're a caterpillar, cocoon, butterfly, and repeat; caterpillar, cocoon, butterfly, constantly, right? And that cocoon phase is where we reassess and integrate and undo. What... what is it? "I don't... I don't need this anymore," right? And turn it to motion, the metamorphosis process, so that we become that next iteration that's truly more of our authentic self, and that's a butterfly, right? And then go into the caterpillar again. So your... your story just reminded me of that, that, um, it's essential for us to... to be in that cocoon phase to realize we're not Swiss cheese. There is no hole. Now I... as you were speaking, I could hear this, like... sometimes I can hear what the listeners are thinking, and it was, "But I've gone through trauma, and I feel broken. I feel less than. I feel like part of me is not like everybody else and just doesn't work like everyone else." How do you speak to that person?

Dr. Kathleen: Yeah, yeah. No, I... I mean, on some level, I think that comes up for everyone, including myself. I mean, including myself. I've had one significant trauma as a very young child, um, and plenty of, you know, minor traumas, if you're in a... if you can label trauma with... on a degree, right? And so how do I speak to that person? Like, well, first of all, with compassion. You know, the... but the... we bring that trauma into our... sometimes, right? Sometimes that trauma becomes... comes into our awareness now, in the moment now. And that is really through the... our powerful, creative... the magic of mind that we have, we bring that into our current reality. The past is not who we are. The future is not who we are. Even... even I'm even seeing this, Katie, like the now isn't who we are. I mean, we're just pure awareness, unbroken, un-... and... trauma can come to life and seem real and seem like our identity, but it lives in thought. And to me, thought is like a sixth sense. You know, we can taste, touch, smell, hear, see, and we can be aware of thought. And it... it... it paints our apparent awareness of who we are, but it isn't... it isn't so. So it's interesting. I mean, for some people, they get a glimpse of that and they're like, "Oh, I have compassion for that innocent, you know, part of themselves, that child that went through..." you know, even that... the innocent, childlike part of us that went through a trauma four years ago, holding my husband as he died and took his last breath. And I don't even refer to that as trauma. I guess the trauma was the illness prior to that. But so I meet that person with compassion, and we just start looking at, "Is that who you really are?" That happened, but you're not a piece of Swiss cheese because of it. And... and that undoing, that unwinding, that seeing is, um... is that person's part of, maybe, their cocoon, right? Where they go look inside. They don't go out there, you know? They have to turn back in and really see the truth of who they are, which is untouched by that. But it doesn't look like that, you know? I get it. What are you... what's your reflection on that?

Katie: No, I... I completely agree with you. And I think often, when trauma's talked about, words like "broken," you know, there... there... there's a vocabulary that's given to it that I think automatically gives the person words and meaning that then defines who they are. Yeah, so, you know, in my own traumas that I've experienced, if I had to remove myself from the conditioning that I received around those, like, "Oh, you went through this, so you must feel this," or "you must..." you know, would I say that I, as a person, am not whole because of those events? No. Did they bring me to a breaking point where I had to discover my resilience, discover my courage and my confidence? And not always did it happen easily, right? Like it... but it... it brought me to a level of better understanding myself and my limits and the boundaries that I need. Um, and it opened up the doors for some healing, some... some forgiveness, a lot of forgiveness work, right? Things like that. But would I describe myself the way that, especially in the psychology world, that people talk about, or even the personal growth... we probably feel broken and like something's missing in your life? And like, yes, but would I feel that way if you weren't telling me I should feel that way on repeat? I don't know. And that's a piece of chicken and egg. I don't know. I hope it's like... but I know, for... for me, even in childhood, I don't remember ever thinking, "There's something wrong with me." I just always felt different, naturally, like I was just new. I was always the new kid. We always moved around, so I was always in that state of, "There, I am different," but I just move around, so I'm always different, like I'm always the new kid. Um, but that might be my own life journey. I think there might be some people who grew up and experience a trauma in their home on repeat, where it... they never... had a chance to formulate their personal identity. That happens in our childhood, in teen years. So that would more than likely create that sense of, "I feel broken. I don't... I don't know who I am." Absolutely. But I think your program and what you teach is to come back to yourself and learn who you are, your identity, without having to read a book or listen to a guru tell you who you are, but to get comfortable and feel safe sitting with you and finding the answers within yourself. That's really what you're sharing. That's what really came to my mind.

Dr. Kathleen: Yeah. Oh, there's so much brilliance in what you just said, like five amazing things. One in there you said, "I don't know." And I find that it's been very helpful to me to be comfortable with "I don't know." Like there's some things I just... you know? Yeah. Um, I had a pretty strong ego operating... I still... we all do, right? For a while, that curiosity and "I don't know," I didn't like that, but now I see the brilliance in that. And I hear that in you. I also think, you know, from the world of psychology and self-help, like there's a... a tendency to label, and people... you know, having been a healer, it gives people, I think, a sense of, "Oh, okay, there is an explanation for that," or... or even more powerful, "I'm not the only one," because a lot of times people feel so isolated. The other thing that you said, um... we could do five podcast episodes on... on what you just said. But... but the other thing was that, while it doesn't look like it to anybody who still feels traumatized and identifies with that trauma, feels broken... I don't know how this is going to land, but there's a gift in there. It's a portal. It's an invitation to find out who you truly are. And you spoke about how that happened for you. You know, same thing happened for me. Navigating through my husband's illness, it was during COVID, you know, the hospice nurses... he didn't want him in the house. And I knew that there was something within me that I would rise to the occasion. I might not do it perfectly, but I walked him all the way home, and you know, it... I... I learned so much. I learned so much about love. I learned so much about loss and grief. I learned what I'm capable of. I learned that I needed community, and I didn't have as much community and around me. Um, and you know, wouldn't trade it for anything. I mean, it's... it's... I can say that that, you know, I... I loved him with the depths of my being, and, um, if I had... I known he was going to die and I was going to go through that back then, I might have said no, but now I would say, "Yeah. No, I'm not..." Like, "Gang, like, 'Oh, can't wait to meet somebody else, walk them home through a difficult illness.'" But guess what? You know what? Yeah. I... I am certainly open because I see those things as... as a portal, as an invitation to... to what we're all ultimately looking for. You know, everyone I coach, Katie, you know, I think I used to put them in two buckets, like they're up against something or they're up to something. But whatever it is that a client brings to me... "I'm... you know, I want to get organized. I'm up to this project." Or, "I'm struggling in my marriage, you know, and I want a deeper connection." If I keep drilling down and drilling down and drilling down, and we go to the... what they... what they actually really want, it's peace. Peace of mind, contentment, you know, which is our true nature. We just have been conditioned, and we live... were bathed with this cultural conditioning that there's something wrong. Something wrong with our life circumstances, something about us that needs to be improved upon or broken and needs to be fixed. And it's just not true, but... but we don't see it. And we all so like... as far as the guru and the book and the... anything, like a true guide... anything that points you back home, that's it. And anything that someone listens to or reads or, you know, a program they're considering, like if they... if it resonates and feels familiar, feels like there's something there, like listen to that. Listen to that. And it needs to address... or it needs to be like what we've just talked about. There's no fixing. You're not broken. It doesn't mean you don't explore trauma and you don't, you know, investigate those thoughts that come up that tell you otherwise, but sometimes you don't even have to investigate... investigate them. You just see that that's a thought mechanism, and thoughts are going to arrive... arise in... in our consciousness, and they're not true.

Katie: Your mantra is now, "I am not Swiss cheese." Everybody who's listening and watching, "I am not Swiss cheese." You are not Swiss cheese. You... you don't have these holes in you. Dr. Perry, this has been enlightening. It has been helpful in me even conceptualizing things in my own journey and a wonderful, wonderful reminder that I know so many listeners are going to be like, "Wow, I needed to hear this today." So I am so grateful that you allowed me to interview you and shared openly about your own losses and experiences that helped you find this realization that you're not Swiss cheese, and you can help guide other people to have that realization, too, and just build skill sets, you know, strengthen... strengthen their skills versus fill in holes that are not even there. No. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. 

Dr. Kathleen: Oh, oh. I thank you. You're a beautiful interviewer, and I always feel a little reluctant talking about my own story. It seems indulgent or self-centered, but I know when I do it, it resonates. People will hear their own, you know, their own version of what their struggle is and what they're looking for within that story. And... and thank you for giving me the opportunity to just share all of this with your listeners. And it was just beautiful to hear about a little bit more about you. Thank you.

Katie: Well, if people want to connect with you, if they want to share their story with you, and to get to know you, where can they find you?

Dr. Kathleen: My website is the best place. If they go to my website, it's drkathleenperry.com D-R-K-A-T-H-L-E-E-N-P-E-R-R-Y. And there's a newsletter. I do write frequently. Um, and that's well received. People enjoy getting a lot of tips and a lot of cool things through the newsletter. And there's also the opportunity to sign up for, um, a recorded version of a master class that I did not too long ago called the Self Reclamation Project. So they can go to the website and, and see them and, you know, watch the master class or center for the newsletter, or contact me through the website. There's a contact page there. If they want to reach out to me personally through the website, that'd be great. I'd love to hear from anybody who wants to share their story.

Katie: Excellent. So I'll make sure all those links are in the show notes below, um, so that people have easy access to you. So again, Dr. Perry, thank you for your time. And, um, yeah, this will be a repeat listen for many of the... the listeners and those who are watching. Come back to it when you need that reminder, "You're not Swiss cheese." And contact Dr. Perry, and she'll remind you, "You're not Swiss cheese. You've got it within you." And, dear listener, here's to finding our balance code.