Episode 08 - Mystic Vale: Natural Druidic Enhancements

Welcome to episode 8 of Board With Each Other!

In this episode we look at a slightly less well known proposition in the form of AEG's card crafting deck builder Mystic Vale. The gameplay is definitely a unique proposition in comparison to standard deck builder fare, but is it any good, does it play well with two and can we ever stop mixing up the words advancements and enhancements (because the internet has poisoned our brains)? The answers lie within!

Listen here: https://linktr.ee/boardwitheachother

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Hello everybody and welcome to episode eight of Board with Each Other, the Board Gaming Podcast, where we look at the world of tabletop gaming and review board games in the lens of playing it as a pair, whether that be as a couple or a really good friend or that strange guy that lives underneath a railway bridge that everybody affectionately calls a druid. I'm your host, Al Simpson, and I'm joined as ever by my player two, my wife, and my gaming partner, Hannah Kelly.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Hi guys.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

So today we are going to be talking about Mystic Veil. Mystic Veil is a deck builder, for want of a better term, I think probably fits into that category, with a very unique spin on the genre. And that spin is uh something called card crafting. So within playing Mystic Veil, you essentially have a deck that never grows in size, but you sleeve other cards called enhancements.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Advancements.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Advancements, not enhancements, natural male enhancements. Onto those cards. Each card has space for three advancements on it. So while your deck never grows in size, the functionality of each individual card within that deck grows as you play. How play works is you take the role of a druid and you're supposed to be returning nature to the land after it's being corrupted by some sort of evil force. And to do that, you draw cards from your deck until you draw three red icons, which are corruption icons. When you draw the third of those icons, it becomes basically what's called your on-deck card. So you place it on the top of your deck. You can choose to push your luck, which means you draw again, but if you and you can continue to do so, but if you get a fourth red icon, you spoil, which means your turn ends immediately without being able to do anything. At the start of the game, you will have little mana icons on your cards, and you use those to purchase advancements from the three marker places, which are level one, two, and three. Level one has obviously the cheapest cards, but they are limited. I think in a two-player game you only play with 13, so those disappear pretty quickly. And then levels two and three are so the decks are so big they're pretty much unlimited, so you can get as many of those as you like. Um, as you buy cards, they have different functions, they have uh as always, you know, there a lot of different cards do different things during the game. Um cards have icons on them, so you'll have either a paw or a star or something like that, which you use to buy from a second marketplace, which is called Veil cards. Well, those veil cards a lot of the time give you victory points at the end of the game, but they'll also have ongoing effects that you can sort of use once per turn to make your turns more effective. You also have a mana token, which you can flip over to gain an extra mana on your turn, and when you spoil, you then flip that over to its usable side again. So it's sort of a one-use thing until you spoil and then you get it back again. Um I think that pretty much covers the oh one thing that's probably quite important to mention. The ending the game, you start with a limited pool of victory points, and you get cards on your turns that give you victory points when they appear in your field. When the victory point pool runs out, that's the end of the game. It's by no means determining the winner. Those are almost just a bonus, it's a game ending mechanism, and it's a bonus number of victory points you have. A lot of the victory points at the end of the game come from the cards that you've the friends you've made along the way. Um, so you will calculate that at the end and you will find out who wins. So, with that said, that's the rules covered. I just wanted to sort of make clear in this podcast, I know we normally do games without expansions, or we have done games pretty much without expansions, although Cocason was an exception to that. I think we did that with expansions. We do have two expansions to this, which are Veil of the Wild and Mana Storm. I know there's a big box out now which actually comes with the first three expansions bundled in, which I think is a very good thing. We'll get on to why later. Um, for the purposes of this review, I am going to treat it as us playing with the expansions because I think it makes for a bit more interesting discussion.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Is it worth then explaining most of the expansions are just additional cards, and the doesn't really change play, but is it worth mentioning the one that does change play?

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Yeah, I mean they both do, they both introduce a new mechanic. The mechanic's the same between them, but they just sort of expand on it. The new mechanic it introduces with the expansion that we have is you get a leader card. So at the start of the game is your choice, but you can choose to make one of your blank cards that you start with a leader card, and they have quite powerful effects and impacts during the game, and you can also flip them during the game to another side if you pay mana for it, which makes them even more effective. You can also change your mana token to an amulet, and all of those amulets have completely different effects. Um, some of them may actually cost you victory points at the end of the game, but allow you to do something really powerful in-game. Some of them might be really rubbish compared to your normal one, but actually gain you victory points at the end of the game for playing with that instead. Um, and again, there's there's interactions there where you can get things that actually make your amulets more uh effective. I know there's a bunch of other things they've done for it, like enemies and nemesis and things like that, which we haven't delved into as of yet. Uh, but I just wanted to make it sort of clear as to where we were in our sort of expansion journey on this, because it is a card game, it is massively expanded, and that's sort of where we're at.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

It runs probably about 45 minutes, I reckon.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Yeah, I would say so. I think we we've had a couple of quite long games because you can you you can kind of choose when the game ends by how many victory point gaining cards you acquire, or you can get into situations where neither player goes to those, and it can actually go on quite long. I think an hour and a half is probably the the furthest we've gone. But the majority of games you play, I'd say about half an hour to 45 minutes, depending.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Okay. So saying that, what are your general what was your general opinion of Mystic Veil? This was uh this was a one hour bolt out of blue, this one.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah, so I think I bought it for you as a birthday or a Christmas present, and I just went went wild on Board Game Geek, and I came up with this game sort of because I think I like the sound of it and I wanted to play it.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Fair enough. Um I'm sure every board gaming couple will uh uh agree with the present for you!

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Present for you, kind of um so I think kind of both of us didn't really know a huge amount about it.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

I knew nothing about it, I'd never heard of it before we bought it.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Um I'm a big fan of deck builders in general, so I think definitely it plays to that strength. And of course, do you know it's slightly high fantasy-ish. We've got druids and druids and magic and stuff and owls, yeah, you know, so I'm I'm quite happy. Yeah, it hits a lot of boxes for me. Um I also think one of the mechanics that's really cool is this idea about the way in which you buy advancements um and that you slot them into your sleeve. Um I've not seen that before, I don't know if that's a it was a new invention with this, as far as I understand.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

I don't know if it's almost I don't know if it's like a patent, I don't know if other people are allowed to do it, I don't know if it's something that I don't know if it's like a proprietary thing. Um I have not seen anything else with it. Um I need to do more research on that, I'm not I'm not sure, but as far as I'm I know, it's the only game I've encountered with that particular mechanic.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Yeah, um and that's really cool, and I think uh definitely sort of stands out um from the crowd, I think, for that reason.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Yeah, yeah, no, it's definitely a point of difference, it's just not your sort of standard deck builder. Um with the deck builders we played. I also like the fact that there's two separate marketplaces, which I find quite unusual. I mean, I imagine there's others out there, but the fact that you have these different pools of resources and you're buying from two separate places, I find that quite cool. Because you're not just building your deck, you're also creating almost like a board state off to the side of it with all your veil cards, and there's a bit more to it than just your basic deck. I guess the only other thing I want to mention, and it's not really about listing veil as such, but uh I think it's just sort of a a couple of the board game together thing. Um never under restorate the uh ability of a random gift to a maze. So we if you're into the hobby, we have wishless smile on games that we're looking at and what have you. And sometimes it's really nice to be surprised by something you never ever look at, you know, just as a gift recipient, you know, like, oh, I've never even seen this before. That's that's really cool. It's it's one of the ways you can genuinely surprise when gifting in the hobby. And it doesn't have to be an amazing great game, it's just the concept of just something new that you never would have thought of. And I just thought I wanted to mention that as an aside, as a couple that board game and buy each other board games as gifts sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

It's nice to know that after 15 years I can still surprise you.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Yes, in a way, yes. Right, on that note, should we go on to some scoring?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Yeah, let's start. So, as usual, we'll start with general scoring before we move on to our couple specific scoring. And so our first category is components.

unknown 9:31

No.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

And set up and tear down. You're gonna have that you're gonna go all around now.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Can I can I get my soapbox out, please?

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Yeah, I'll get the popcorn.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Alright, so Mystic Veil is a game that is about druids casting spells and incantations with the aptitude to cast them.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

I'm glad you make yourself last week.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Yeah, I do my little sky in reference. Um, to heal the land from a corruption that could possibly maybe be compared to a bit like maybe pollution, global warming, those sorts of things. And this is a game that comes with a huge amount of plastic waste.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

So each of your cards uh gets slotted into a plastic wallet that come with a game, which is really, really nice, and that's absolutely fine. And your advancements themselves are clear plastic.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah, they're almost semi- they they're transparent aside from the bit of card, so the third of the card is taken up.

unknown 10:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Um, and that bit I understand, although I'm not particularly happy about it. Um, however, when you get it, each of those advancements is covered by a film, a plastic film. Yeah. And I still to this day cannot understand why there's a plastic film on there. I'm sure there is a reason for it. However, it just and I'm by no means an eco-warrier. However, I do like to make sensible choices where I can to protect the planet, and it just it feels very at odds with the game and just a little bit like senseless waste to be used.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yeah, it does feel quite wasteful. I mean they come off the the plastic films come off very, very easily. And I remember the first few times we played at the end of the game, we'd end up with a literal pile of plastic waste on the table. I was just looking at that and going, oof, that's not good. Yeah. I understand that they do it because the cards, by their nature, are made of plastic and quite thin plastic, and they're quite easy to scuff and mark. But I have to say, since the film came off, we played must have played over.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

But they instantly come off. It's not like the case that you can keep them on because I think we made a decision we're just going to keep them on until they came off, but every time you shuffle, they just they just they just start coming off.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

So they do nothing to actually protect the no, and I don't know how necessary they are because, like I say, after about 20 something odd plays, I don't see much scuffing or damage to the cards.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

After printing, they couldn't have gone on before printing. They must have got a necessary transfer. I I I don't know. I mean, again, I just feel that there's a design flaw there. Yeah, and I'm not a designer by any of them.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

They could do a bit better there, but again, yeah, what do we know? Maybe there's an absolutely necessary reason why it happens, but it just it feels like it's a few.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

It does feel very wasteful. Yeah, it's it feels wasteful, particularly given the theme of the game. Yeah. Um, it feels very wasteful. Um, so that's my soapbox over and done with.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Yeah, I do agree with you to a certain extent there. I don't think it bothers me as much as it bothers you, but I I I completely get it, and I do I do think it is quite wasteful.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Um, that said, I think that the concept of the sleeve, I've said this already, like the concept of the advancements that you put in your sleeve and and you have um you will end up with like a card that's properly advanced, feels like it's really thick, stacky, weighty card, and then you flip it, you're like, yeah, I've got a good card coming.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Um, so that's quite satisfying. I think the artwork, particularly on the Vale cards, is absolutely stunning.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Yeah, some of the artwork is really genuinely quite stunning. Um, easily it's sort of like Magic the Gathering in its prime level, I would say. Um, I like how chunky the cards are.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

It's it after playing with so many fiddly cards, especially thinking you know, like playing things from like Fantasy Flights and from Gloomhaven, what have you, or from playing with these tiny little flimsy cards, the the big, chunky, weighty cards are really satisfying to shuffle, they're really satisfying to turn over. The veil cards are big, and again, you could appreciate the artwork because they're so big, so yeah, I I do like that side of things.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Um the box is fantastic, so one of the even with all the um even with the two expansions, expansions everything all fits back into the box, and there are nice little neat slots for it, which thank you very much. I very much appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Yeah, it does come with good sort of storage uh within it. Um, it's got decent dividers, everything as I said. That I I have a feeling that they always had those first three expansions in mind, which is why I think the big box now comes with them because I think even if we've got the other expansion, it would still go in all back in quite fine and fit into the the divisions of dividers it has in there. So that's good. Um setup is pretty much non-existent, yeah. Shuffling, yeah, it it's very, very quick. Um, as teardown, on the other hand, is a bit a bit of a time sink.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Meh. I mean, I don't know how much of a time sink that really is because you can score it as you strip down at the same time, yeah. Although we don't tend to do that, but even then it's just pulling things out of their sleeves.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Yeah, I know, I know. It's just after particularly a longer, the longer the game goes, the more you're gonna have in your cards, and yeah, it does take a bit of time to unsleeve every single card that you used and put them into the right piles.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Everyone's a critic.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Yeah, well, that's kind of why we do this. Um anything else on components you wanna you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 14:33

No, I think I think that kind of hits it all for me. Um I think I've been quite generous here and I've scored it a five, and what what's brought my score down is mainly around the plastic waste, and I wanted to score it lower, but I felt like that was unfair.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Yeah, that probably feels a little bit harsh. Um I've gone for seven, mainly because of the plastic waste bothers me. I haven't really got any other issues with it as such, so I think seven feels about right to me. Okay. So complexity. How well does the complexity serve the game? So if you've listened to us before, you know this, but we don't rate complex games highly and lightweight games low. It's how well we feel the game earns its complexity or needs its complexity.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

So I think you and I are probably going to differ a little bit on this. I absolutely loved the base game, and I think for a long time it was one of my favourite games that I would always want to crack out.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Um, and there are reasons for that that I'll probably talk about more later. Um and I think that for what it was, it was absolutely fine. There was no arguing about rules there, um, although obviously there are some questions about you know the advancements and how they work and how they interact together, so it wasn't overly complex. And I think for a fairly lightweight, I say this is a lightweight game.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Yeah, yeah, lighter medium, like definitely a low end of medium if you go that way.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Yeah, I think the base game was absolutely fine. However, once we got the expansions, they definitely added a level, not necessarily of complexity, but I think Strategy is what I would say.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

I think there's much deeper I'll go off of one. Yeah, yeah, I would say strat I would I wouldn't say necessarily out of complexity, it's more about depth.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Yeah, um, and I think that was probably needed, and I think what I learnt quite early on was that I have a playstyle and I know what I like to do, and I I know how I like to play. And the expansion and having different leaders forces me to play it slightly differently, and actually I didn't realise that I wanted that challenge.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah, completely fair. Yeah, I mean for me I loved playing the base game to start with, um, but after a while it started to get it started to feel a little bit shallow to me.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Um I felt like with just the base game that I wouldn't say we solved it, but we came to realise, or at least I came to realise, I think you did too, that if you went hard on the Veil cards, you're probably going to win. Um and once that was apparent to me, the strategy started to feel a little bit one note.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

I don't necessarily think that it's any different now, though.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

I do. And I think our last game proved that.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

I think you probably had more veil cards than me.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Yeah, but that's not where I got most of my points from. Anyway, this is this is not an argument people want to listen to us have. But I'll I'll get on to I'll I'll get on to why. So yeah, I'd say if we were to review it without getting the expansions, this will probably be around a five for me. Um I think it's fine. I think the complexity is fine, I think it's really quick and easy to teach, really quick and easy to learn. You don't have to burn your brain down while playing it, you know, that's that's all fine. But I definitely was crying out for something else, something a bit deeper, which I feel like to a certain extent, perhaps not a hundred percent of the way there, but a certain extent the expansions did add for me. Um, and for me it was less about the leaders and amulets and more about the new cards, because a lot of the new cards started to lean a lot harder into synergies, yeah. So you get something on your card, and if you had an icon that matched it, you would get that that card would become increasingly more powerful, and it's a bit of a gamble, you know, are the cards going to come up? Um, but it it added a level of strategic depth to it that I don't think was there before. And the last game that we played, I tried I I experimented, tried to lean really hard into that, and most of my points came from those synergies, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

So whereas realistically, actually, I lost victory points because of that, yeah, but I didn't lean hard enough into it so I never was able to compensate. Yeah, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

So I I do think there's a lot more there, and I imagine with more expansions, they add more uh I think they add more mechanics and more things to it, and I think you know, it's how far you want to go with it. But I definitely think it has breathed new life into it for me. I think I was verging on done with it when we're towards the end of the time and we just had the base game.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

So I'll also point out we've had this for two years. Again, it was pre-U keeping stats on games, but we must have knocked up at least 30 plays.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah, I'd say probably around the 30 buck. Um so yeah, I mean given that, how would you rate it complexity-wise?

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Um so including the announced announcements. The all male announcements, yeah. Um including the um expansions, uh seven.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

The same, yeah. I've also gone for seven, but like I say, it would have been a five.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

I don't think I'd have later it as low as a five as a base game, I think I'd have put it as a six.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Okay, fair enough. I mean still we're uh we're on a similar wavelength. Splitting outs there. Okay, alright, shelf life and value for money.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Um well, we've had it on our shelf for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

We have.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

And we are still playing it now.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Mainly because of the expansions, I think. Like you said, you can't.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Yeah, I think I think we left it for quite a while until I got the expansions.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

I definitely wanted to keep playing it after I think you uh take a high risk.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

No, I get that.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Um so for me, I definitely think that it it's it's not a game that I would sell.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

No, no, no, no, definitely not.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Um or get rid of, I think it will stay in our collection.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

She says now, listeners, before I fill the entire room with ball games.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Um but I yeah, I think I I found the base game more replayable than needed, um, and I definitely think that now we've got we've only paid like a handful of the leaders, so I definitely think that's a lot more legs in there. A lot more legs in it. And I'd probably be interested in getting the third expansion that we've not got.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Yeah, definitely, so to complete that sort of base set. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, I mean this is a tricky one for me. I think I think one thing that I have to say about Mystic Veil is it it fills a weird gap in our collection of a game that doesn't take a lot of setup, it doesn't take a lot of thinking necessarily, and runs about 45 minutes, but it still has a level of I'm playing a grown-up board game, yeah, you know, it's not just a quick fuller. It's got this it's got this really unique slot in our collection, and I don't know how else to describe that, which actually makes me think it comes to the table more often than I think it would if I had something similar that I liked more.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

It's those nights when we're a bit like want to play a game, haven't got a huge amount of men mental space or something.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Like an hour in me.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Don't really know what I want to play, let's crack out Mystic Fail.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Because you could say the same about Calico, but Calico is so brain burning that you know you'd like really need to think when I'm playing Calico, but this I can just like la la la, nature nature, I'm casting spells, it's all good and gravy and fun. You know, it's it's it's a relaxing game to play. It is a relaxing game to play. And I I I think it because of that, it definitely fits a particular niche, which perhaps has extended shelf life for us. But I think it's a it's a cogent point if you have a if you have a that shit. Shaped hole in your collection, maybe you you want something like this.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

But I can also fully see a lot of people finding calico that soothing, peaceful, and it's funny enough because actually the next category I've written soothing, peaceful, symmetrical. So I imagine a lot of people find that calico or perhaps patchwork does that for them.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

I've never played patchwork, perhaps. One day I might find that calico, but not at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

But again, I think that's very much how we approach it. And again, I think we quite often go with you know mana conservation, like how much can we get for this card, rather than necessarily thinking strategically, because that's how again that's how we play it.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

I'm sure there are people out there that perhaps play it harder, but yeah, I mean I'd like to go I'd like to be some really compared hard die hard competitors of Mystic Vale players. That's not interesting people. DM me. Let's go. Um the other side of this category is value for money.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

And I don't know how you don't know how much I paid for it.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Well, I I I do now and I know from the expansions. One of the one of the things to bear in mind with Mystic Veil and all of its expansions are they are a little bit more expensive than you would think. Well, well, it is, it's because of the construction of the it's not it's non-standard construction stuff.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

They're not just cards, aren't they? They have to come with sleeves, they have to come with the plastic.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

These are these are almost like specially made, particularly for this game. And because I haven't seen it anywhere else, I imagine it runs them quite a lot to manufacture. So I'm not this is not a dig at the designer or AEG who publishes this. It's just uh uh uh uh the nature of the beast for want of a better term, but it does cost more, you get you get less for your money than you know what you'd expect.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

I'm curious, roughly how much is the base game going for? Do you know?

SPEAKER_00 23:48

I think it's around the£40 mark, not far away from June Imperium. And again, if you compare the two, and the like I said, the expansions are like 25. You pay 25 for Marvel Champions expansion, and you get uh much, much more. I mean, not not a lot came in those boxes for 25 quid.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Yeah, so again, I yeah, agreed. Certainly, I think those are overpriced for expansions um because of what you get in the expansion.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

I don't yeah, I don't think they're overpriced. I think they're I don't think they're gouging or anything. I don't I don't think they're being greedy. I think they're priced at a point that they have to be for them to make money out of their manufacturing. I think it's just the nature of the beast.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Fair enough. I will stand yes, that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

So I'm not I am not criticising the publisher or the designer for the money that they're charging. I think given that it's the this really odd production in I I I get it, I understand it, but I just want to give people a word of warning that you might not get as much as you expect. You know, if you're in this hobby, you you you know you you pay£40 just for a card game, you expect to get quite a lot, and then you don't, you might be a bit disappointed. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Um so value for money in shelf life, I've gone with six.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Oh, do you know what? Snap, yeah, I also went for six. Um and I think that's mainly because mainly because I think I realised that you were done with it, and that was a shame. But that's not that's not really that's not my score.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

My husband's bored of the game, so I'm gonna mark it down.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

I'm gonna think of this.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

I appreciate the solidarity, sweetheart.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

But also, you know. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Um I think again, pre-expansion that probably would have been down somewhere near four or three for me. Um and again, I've I have I have knocked a bit of my personal score because again, if I'm gonna go out and spend 25 quid on expansion, I'm probably gonna spend something where I get a bit more to it, you know, or I'll buy three packs of Marvel Champions or something, you know, something like that. It's it's difficult for me to justify it when I know what else is out there. So I'm probably an octopointer for that.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

There we go. It's risky very fun.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Right. So the works that I've written down here, peaceful, rhythmic, quite symmetrical. So, I mean, when I compare it to fun with games that there's lots and lots of competitiveness or it's feeling quite thrilling, then no, but that's not a thrilling game. It's not a thrilling game, it's not a white knuckle right, tense, you're not fiercely competing over resources, but it's really soothing and relaxing, and I love that about this.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Yeah, yeah, fair enough. I mean, I can't I can't argue with that. I I I feel the same, it's a very relaxing game to play. It's just it's it's it's easy, you know. It's it's one of those games where you can get really into it and really, you know, strategize if you want to, but at the same time, you just want to make some pretty cards and get some pretty cards, make some victory points and not have to think about it too much. It's it's ideal for that thing.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

And there's a real for me a massive satisfaction when you complete uh you've bought all the advancements that you can on a card, and like I said, when you turn it over and you pick it up and you're like, oh, this is gonna be a good one, and you know that it's a big, fat, thick.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Yeah, the when you when you construct your deck in a way that count you can get cards that cancel out your red icons, you get growth growth counters, which get rid of corruption, so you can end up with these massive long runs that stretch throughout the table.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

And that's just really satisfying when that happens, and you just feel like yeah, you're in agreeable, and for that reason I absolutely love it. Um but fun, like whoop whoop, probably yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

I mean, I think I think that's the flip side for me. While it's all those things, I don't think it's get it it it sparks me or gets its hooks into me in a way that other things do. So I'd be being disingenuous if I gave it too high a score because there are other things that I do find a lot more actively fun that I feel more engaged with. It has its place, it has its spot, but in general, if I was wanting, you know, a really good time with something, uh I'd usually choose something else in our collection. Um so for that reason I've given a six.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Uh so I scored a seven.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Okay. Not far off.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Not far off.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Alright. So, at the conclusion of scoring, that gives us a general rating of six point five. We round up as always, or round down, depending. Um, which gives us a general rating of seven, which is probably one higher than I would put it, probably kind of where you would probably put it. Well, I think that's where I would put it.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Yeah, I think seven has swallowed seven.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Yeah, but fairly close there, I guess, which is good. Right, so onwards to our two-player couples ratings. This is where Ells gonna start getting a bit harsher, I think.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

So the first of those categories is our table talk rating.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

So that's how much you interact with the other players, how much capacity there is to have conversations about what's going on, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

So I think it's fair to say that when we first started playing this, we played very solo. So we would quite often set our field out. I think that's not the right word.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Yeah, you're you draw cards, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Up to the point that you would potentially spoil, um, and then we would buy enhancements, and it was very much quiet solo affair. And I think after a couple of games I was like, look, this isn't working for me because one I didn't know necessarily what you were buying, and I think perhaps we were rushing through it a little bit, but also I wasn't necessarily picking out the advancement of the enhancements advancements. The natural male enhancements. The natural male enhancements.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

You do realise that's why I'm calling this episode.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

A natural druid enhancements that I'd already bought, so quite often I would be missing some of the perks that I'd already bought. And actually, when we slowed things down and we talked each other through perhaps our field, I think there obviously then was an awful lot more discussion, there was a lot more interactivity, um, and I think it improved the game for me quite a lot.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Okay, alright. I mean, if you follow the rules as written, there's a lot of concurrent play in this game. It recommends you doing actually doing things while the other player is taking their turn. I yeah, I don't get that. I I I guess maybe it's there for expediency to speed up the game.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

And then it will be a lot quicker.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

It would be a lot quicker, but you just don't know what the other person's doing. You don't really know what's going on, you don't know what you're up against. Um so yeah, well we we quite early on started to slow things down a bit and actually pay attention to what the other person was doing. Um which I think helped give it a little bit more strategic depth as well, because otherwise it's just a completely solar game. We play together. Yeah. Otherwise, pretty much.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

But there are a lot of people that like that.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Yes, there are a lot of people like playing that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

I also think it's one of those games that it's quite difficult to work out who's winning unless you're paying attention to what enhancements they're buying they're buying. It's your fault. You start playing. Um so actually, when you play concurrently, you would get to the end of the game and have absolutely no idea. So I think perhaps we'll be quickly reckoning up the veil cards.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Yeah. Fine. I mean, yeah, okay. I think this is really bad for table talk.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Yeah, I think this is I mean, it's one thing paying attention to what somebody else is doing, but there's very little actual interactivity during the game. Um, it very much is a solo deck builder that you play together.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Yes, agreed.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Um and I think if that's important to you, then bio beware. I is is what I would say. Um I have given it a three because I think it is one of the worst ones in our collection for that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Oh, I don't think I rated this one. I wrote lots of things down, but I didn't actually rate it. Um I think probably I would have given it a six. Oh no, I have, look, six, there, I see it.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Yeah, I see it. Okay, fair enough. I mean, yeah, it just it in that in that vein, it does not work for me at all.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

But I think if you're like me and you can talk behind legs of the donkey, you're probably good.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah, maybe. But yeah, that's my rating. Three.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Alright, fine, six. Then on to competitiveness. Um, so I think for some of the reasons we've already touched on, you're absolutely right, it is a solo game that you play side by side in many respects.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

Yeah, yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

You're not gonna pick cards or pick advancements just to screw over your other partner.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

No.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

And certainly, whilst the number of level one enhancements that you've got is limited when you start off, level twos and level threes are practically infinite. There's no way you'd be able to buy and get through the deck. So actually, there is no there is no competing for scarce resources. Whilst there might be a really good card on the table, if it's gone, there'll be another one.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Yeah, there is. I mean, there's always been moments like, oh damn, you got that before I did. Um, but those moments are rare, I have to say.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

I think And you don't work so hard for it. So, like other games where you have to really, really work to buy um an advancement or to to get something, and if that other person then comes in and sweeps in before you, it's really frustrating. It's absolutely gutted because you both work so hard for it. This isn't you know not an completely refreshing.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I mean I think I I I have rated this higher than my my tabletop there. They they're kind of related, and I think some of the issues cross interplay between those two categories for me. But I do I do find I think the question I always ask myself with competitiveness is do I find it satisfying to win?

SPEAKER_01 33:52

No, not particularly.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

I do. Ish.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Which is why I've given it a five. Because yeah, it's satisfying to win. I think the element of it that I like, the competitive element of- I scored it lower than you. Oh really?

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Yeah, I scored it a four.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Okay, fair enough. I think the the the competitive element of it that I like, and this is one of the things that I really liked about Scythe as well, is the control over the game end. I think I figured out that I quite love games where you can control when the game ends.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Yeah. So as I'll said in the very beginning, obviously, when you end the game, it's to do with the number of victory points that you accumulate in game. Some do it at in-game, some do it in-game. However, once you've got them out on the table, that means that every time you turn that card over.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

You get those victory points, and when the pool runs out, you win. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

So you can't stall it and you can't slow it down.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

No, it's like a train that you start going. And I like that aspect of it because it's all about trying to get yourself into a state where you think, hmm, okay, I might take this, and then you start going hard on the victory points cards and going, right, I'm gonna or you could even go hard on them immediately and try and finish the game really quickly before anybody's got a chance to do anything, and you've got all those bonus victory points you've been getting turn on turn. Um, so that bumped it up a couple of points to me because I like that. I I like that mechanism in games. I really like being able to control not completely, but have a chance at controlling when the game ends, because I just think it adds a layer of strategic depth that I respond to quite well, enjoy quite well. So, yeah, five from me. Yeah, so four for me.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

So, again, very, very separate, very hard to gauge when the other person's winning or losing. Yeah, and um yeah, I I don't think for me it particularly matters who wins or loses, I don't think that's satisfaction.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

It's it's not that type of game for you.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

It's not that kind of game for me. It's very much what I like about this is something else.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Yeah, completely fair. Alright, and scalability. So by scalability, what we mean is would this be it does this play well with two first and foremost, but would it be better with more? Um and in this case, I think two is probably the sweet spot.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Yeah, I often find this really hard to rate, particularly when we haven't played it with somebody else. Yeah, we've got to try it out so that's it. Yeah, it's it's abstract thinking, really, isn't it? Like, do I think this would be better? I think for me, because aside from your level one enhancements, the carpool is pretty much infinite and you don't have that competition about resources, I don't see how adding a third player would necessarily make it any better because it's not like you're gonna be adding to that level of competitiveness. It's not a white knockle ride, it's not that tense kind of game. So, how how is that gonna make any difference?

SPEAKER_00 36:36

I think the only thing it would add is slowing the game down. Yeah, because your victory pool point pool gets slightly larger, but not that much larger.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

To balance it out. So I think, yeah, it would just streamline it a little bit. And I don't think it necessarily needs that because I don't think it's in a long and weighty game that you would make quicker.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

And yeah, I think I think it's a great two-player game. I don't know why if you had three or four people around the table, you'd go you'd pull this out compared out of comparison to many other games.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yeah, but I think that's because you quite like betrayal mechanisms and you like those kind of games, so you would always choose something that perhaps has that more social element particularly at a larger side, larger group side. Yeah, and I do. However, there are a lot of players that might not actually feel that way.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Yeah, fair enough. I mean, this is my personal ratings, this is how I feel about it.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

No, I know, I'm just making it.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Um I just yeah, I don't think this would I I don't think adding more people would add anything at all uh for this third. I think the the only thing that might get a little bit more interesting is cost, there's uh card scarcity around the level one cards, and the fact that you've only got three, so if two people instead of one were buying before you went, you'd then have any other choice of I know because it's still the same. You refresh it every time. And there's enough for a good few rounds of those.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

And it's also worth worth pointing out that if you have um there are no cards on the table that you can afford, you can spend two mana to just buy a fertile land, which just grants the additional mana mana point on your on one of your cards, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Yeah, so yeah, I I've given this an eight because I'd I'd I'm pretty sure that two is the the sweet spot for this.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Yeah, so I didn't really again I find this one really difficult to score when I don't know. My my final conclusion was well, what would adding a third player add, to which I didn't think anything given that it's quite a solitary game, so I gave it a ten.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Okay. Alright, fine.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Yeah, that's Hannah's attic scoring. I think it's perfect as two player, right? What would a third person add? I think the purposes of score.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

Alright, cool. Alright, so that leaves us with a board with each other two-player rating of six.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

I think that's on the low side.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

No, I think that's about right for me.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

Oh really? Yeah, no, I think that's a little bit low. I think it's not what we would ordinarily lean towards. Um I don't think it's a bad two-player game at all. And I think if that suits your play style, and if that's what you want, something quite rhythmic, quite peaceful, that you're playing together cooperatively. Well, it's not as competitively, isn't it? Yes. Maybe that's competitive.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

There you go, my problem.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Um but I think if that's what you want from a game, and I I think I think it's it plays really well as a two-player game.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

Oh, it does, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I just think there's so much better out there both competitively and cooperatively. I take your point that it's it fits a certain spot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

And I think if we took the whole competitive co-op thing out of it, I think actually it would score really highly.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Yeah. You know? But again, it's it's that's not why I play games.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

You know, and again, this is burnt. So my ratings obviously drag that down, but I'm sure that you know, as a listener, I'm sure you can decide which of those sort of camps you fall into.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Um it's a good game. I'm glad we've got it, and I think it will stay in our collection. I don't feel like I'm gonna part with it anytime soon.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

I no, it's it's not. It it'll always have a spot on certain nights, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

But when you want natural druid enhancements.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Yes, and when you need natural druid enhancements. TM. Um, so thank you very much for joining us. As always, we have all of our social media platforms up. Um if you listen to us on your podcast um mechanism of choice.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Medium.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Medium, that's the same. Uh that we very much appreciate today. We good to each other. Have a fun, next time.