Episode 14 - Micromacro: Crime City - Where's Corpsey?

Thanks for joining us for another episode of Board With Each Other!

In this episode we take our first foray into puzzle games, with the visual puzzle that is MicroMacro: Crime City. We talk about games that are 'one and done', wax lyrical about the exceptional art design and answer our usual question of how it fares as a shared experience with two players. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of Board With Each Other, the board gaming podcast, where we review board games through the lens of playing them with two players. Whether that be with a significant other, uh a good friend or gaming buddy, or your roommate who keeps asking you why you have a fictional city up on your wall with loads of pins and cotton on it.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Where is Papaya Sword?

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Always sunny reference at the gate strong. I'm Al Simpson, and as ever, I'm joined by my lovely wife, uh my co-host, and my player 2, Hannah Kelly.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Hi guys.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

So today we are delving into the world of puzzle games, where we are reviewing the first in the series of Micro Macro, Crime City, by designer Johannes Sick. Sick. I'm sorry if I mispronounce your name, Johannes. Um it's going to be a bit more of a bite-sized one today, I think, because obviously this is not a usually sort of sprawling board game. This is very much a cooperative puzzle. And the the basis of the game is it's played over a very large map that uh probably say three sides of A3 stuck together.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

There's probably a proper paper size for that. It's A0.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Well possibly. Um, but I'd say three three A3 stuck together, there are thereabouts. Um, which is an incredibly detailed line drawing of a city with events that are happening all over the place. And on this map you undertake cases, which I think within the box is 15.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Sounds about right.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yeah. There are thereabouts. And um through these cases, you basically have a series of cards, and on those cards will be clues, and you have to look through the map to find out the answers to the questions that the case is posing at you. So, for example, find the corpse of the person that's been killed, find out what they did as a day job, etc. etc. The events detailed on the map are basically a sort of a series of events, and they're not all happening at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

It's quite difficult to conceptualize, but everything's happening all at the same time over the course of days.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah, but also not.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Um but they're so what that means in reality, I guess, is that you can see something happen on square A1 and or personal set of figures, and you can trace them back in their activities throughout the day or lengths or what have you. Yeah, time.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Um and that's all there is to the game. You you have a clue, um, all the cases range from sort of five through to sort of 15 cards, clues, context clues. You're presented with a clue, you find the answer. Once you found the correct answer, you move on to the next clue. Repeat until you find the conclusion of the case. Who is the killer, for example? Yeah, I think that's all there is to do with the rules, basically. I don't think there's anything else to add.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

So when you're playing as uh two plagues, I think this is also a solo game, probably was launched as a solo game, maybe? I I don't think they've ever really specified it's uh the it plays one to four the box, but so the idea is that you will you'll have a stack stack of cards, so maybe eight cards, one person will read out the clue, and when you think you have the answer, only one person turns it over to reveal if that's the answer or not. That becomes really important because it's almost like a life. So, say for example, you got it wrong, or the person who's checked on the back or they stay out of it, yeah, and leaving the other person to carry on playing.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

They're eliminated for that clue, basically. Yeah, and if you all get illuminated, illuminated we play this with a lamp, maybe that's what I'm thinking. Um if you all get eliminated, that's basically game over.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Yeah. Um, I would say that each case, the earlier cases are easier and they build up in terms of complexity, but I mean the first case probably took us maybe 10 minutes max. Yeah. The longest one, the last one, probably took us 20 minutes, I reckon.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

It says 15 to 45 minutes on the the box. I don't think we were ever taking 45 minutes on a case.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

No, I think I'd probably give up at that point.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

I think we have approached the half-hour mark on a couple of them, I think.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Yeah, maybe, but maybe that's just because it's us and we wander off and do other things.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Potentially, yeah. Um, so it it's very it's very snappy. Yeah, um, it's one of those things that you could very much use as a filler to sort of get the juices flowing at the start of a gaming session, or you could sit down and you could rattle off several cases in one session.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah, which is quite often what we do. We might spend like half an hour, 45 minutes playing this before moving on to something else.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Before we're moving on to something else. Um it's worth mentioning that this is very much a one and done.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Um, I mean, once you know the answers, you know the answers.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Once you've solved a murder, you're kind of solved.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

I mean, unless you're a person that just likes going back and solving the same murder over and over again. Um serial police officers. Yeah. It's not a legacy game, but it is in any other name. Once you're done with it, you're done with it.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

They do have a lot of other boxes. I'm not gonna call them expansions.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

No, it's a series.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

It's a series, I think there are six.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

I'm not sure, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

I'm not, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Um, what is interesting about the series as such is I know they start to interact with each other later on, so once you have several boxes, I think they then do boxes that work across several of the maps.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

And so you have to lay out all your maps all together.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah, which I think you need a very large front room for. I don't think my I don't think several of them all, you know, however many they are of them all gonna fit on a gaming table. So it's a definitely used like living room floor job. Um, but yeah. Puzzle games. This is our first foray into the the genre as such. We we haven't played any before this, we haven't played any of the unlock or exa games that are quite popular at the moment. We just sort of I thought I'd take a chance on this and see what it was like.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Yeah, and I think puzzle games aren't necessarily where I would naturally go to, it's not really my strong suit. Um, however, I think because it's really snappy and really punchy, it kind of fits quite nicely, and and if you begin to get a bit brain fatigued or if you find it a bit repetitive, well that's fine, you can just easy to just sort of pack it up and and and do something else.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Um but it it was a it was an interesting introduction, I think.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah, it was unlike it is absolutely unlike anything I've ever played before, and I think it will definitely stand out in my memory.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah, and it's made me interested in in other things like it. Um but yeah, I mean there's there's there's aspects of that that I think we'll get into in in the scoring. But is there anything else you want to add as a sort of general note before we do get on to scoring?

SPEAKER_00 6:41

I mean it's an incredibly dangerous city.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

It is, yeah, I wouldn't like to live there.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

No. No. There's a lot of bad stuff happening to be a little bit more. And corpses littered all over the street, and yet not a single police officer I noticed.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Can't have nothing in MicroMacro. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Probably could do with a few more like Bobby's on the beat.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah, I don't I don't recall seeing a police officer. Okay, shall we get on to scoring on the in that yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

So our first category uh is components. Um, I mean, it is a map with it. You get some little uh grey cubes that you can use to place to pinpoint when you've uncovered.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Those didn't come with a game, we used those, they came from another game. Oh yeah, so you use something then, yeah. We've it's a game where you'll definitely want counters or or or or something of the like. I can't remember where we got the cues from. They uh Pandemic Legacy. They finished Pandemic Legacy. Uh we used little infection cubes for it, but you will definitely want something to mark the map. The map is very detailed and very small.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Yeah, it's a very big map, and the illustrations themselves are really, really tiny. Um, it does come with a little um magnifying lens that is shit.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Yeah, it doesn't work. It doesn't interrupt.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

It doesn't work, might as well throw that away.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

I think the later games come with actual little magnified glasses for the players. Because there's also it comes with one. Um if you're playing with multiple people, you then have to share a magnified glass. We didn't really need to use it, but we did find that when we were playing it, we had to get sort of spotlight lamp to shine onto it just to be probably partly to do with our lighting.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

So again, if you if you're playing in a room with you know, sort of just normal. Yeah, you know, it's not sort of like neon strip lighting, which I imagine most people don't have in their living room. Exactly, yeah. Um, yeah, you do need additional lamp. Um I think the illustrations on there, I mean, they're cute, they're nice, it's all like well done.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Yeah, I was gonna get onto the artwork in a in a minute. Fine. Talking about the artwork. I mean it's such a massive part of it, so yeah, go on.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Yeah. What I found really interesting is there were whilst I think sometimes when you first turn over the clue, it can take you a while to identify the character. But once you've got them, despite the fact that there must be thousands, well hundreds of little tiny little individual characters, they're all really easily identifiable.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah, they've used it. It's it's a difficult art style to pinpoint. They they've got animal qualities to them, so they've always got like bunny ears, some look like cats or bunny ears, but some of them also just look like people. It's really, it's interesting, but uh most of the the characters used in the cases, well not most, all of them. What you you you will find one distinguishing feature. So you stare at this illustration for a while, and it'll be either be their ears, it'll be a scarf they're wearing, they've got a carrot for a nose, they look like a cat, they've got cornrows, you know. You you you'll find something within their illustration that's a distinguishing feature. And I think that's one of the things I find so impressive about the art style, the amount of thought that's gone into creating those those individual characters with those distinguishing features to make them easily identifiable.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Yeah. And here's the other thing, it does it's completely language independent.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Well, no, not with the clues, it's not.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Oh well, not with the clues, no, admittedly, but like in terms of oh yeah, okay, I'll shut up.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Yeah, no, it's a very language dependent. No, don't no.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

No, but I was thinking like you don't have a shop that says hardware shop. Yeah, it's all symbolism. You know, uh bit of hardware.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

But that's that is an interesting point because you've got all of these various shops within the city, and they're all quite easily identifiable because these big picture-based signs, you haven't got a squint to try and read what's on them in terms of the actual writing. It's all like, oh, there's a big picture of a fish, uh, it's fish bunkers, you know, all that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Um it is really tiny though, so probably isn't for granny to play with her specs. Yeah, you know, and small children probably couldn't play it either.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah, that's that's an element of where the complexity comes in because the the map is incredibly busy, you know, there's so much going on. Um, but again, I think it's a it's a feat of the art style that it still manages to make all of that distinguishable, you know.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

And it's all black and white, so it's just line drawing interestation. You said there's no colour on it yet whatsoever. I think colour would just make it horrific.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yeah, yeah, make it possible. So it's quite clean in that sense, you know, the clean lines.

unknown 11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Um, so yeah, I mean, I th I think if when when you roll the map out and you first have a look at it, I mean if you're familiar with sort of like the where's Wally style, you know, it's it's that classic sort of like hunting through all these densely um populated tableaus, things that are going on, and and and you know, finding what you need to find from that. So that's what it is at its core. But it's staggering the amount of thought and design that's gone into it. And I think every time we play, I'm reminded by the amount of work that's gone into this. Um, you know, you play games, and there's a lot of that work can be quite hidden. You know, you don't see the hours of play testing and tweaking rules and all the rest of it that people have gone through. And this is very much in your face, and it reminds you that this medium that reminds you of the work that designers put in in this medium, um, and if nothing else, it's sort of a testament to that, which I quite like. It reminds me of that. Like, you know, people put in a lot of effort to make these things that we enjoy, and um, I don't I don't know if sort of one artist worked on the whole thing or or or was a team of people like that.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

It's not even the artist, it's the narrative, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 12:13

It's it's it's not just the art, it's the storytelling behind that, and it's the interaction between the art and the game, which I don't think I've ever found anything quite like, and nothing that's impressed me to that level. Um, so just as a piece of art in the board gaming space, I think it deserves massive kudos for that. I think it deserves credit for that. Um, but yeah, I mean, we also talk about setup and tear down. Yeah, second seconds, roll the map out, get the get get a nice little case, and they've all got their own little envelopes.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Pop them out, you're you're good to go.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yeah. Or all that we need to do is get a lamp.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yes, but yeah, I mean, the only things I would mark it down on are the fairly terrible magnifying glass and the fact that you absolutely need counters and surely just like even the rules tell you you need to find something like that.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

A little pack of coins or something.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yeah, a little pack of counters wouldn't, you know, would have been a nice thing to include within it. But those are minor quibbles in the grand scheme of things, and as a result, I've given it an eight.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah, so I was torn between an eight and a nine, and the reason I rated it so highly was also uh predominantly things that you mentioned, but also the fact that you can start linking all these individual maps together for this big old crime explosion, and I think that we've seen obviously expansions that interrelate with the core game, but I just think that's absolutely amazing. Yeah, it is amazing. Absolutely phenomenal, and so therefore, yeah, somewhere between an eight and a nine, I settled on a nine because that's weak in generous.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Okay, fine. Alright. So our next category is complexity, and as always, this isn't how complex the game is, we don't write we we don't rate really complex things highly and vice versa. This is how well the complexity serves the game. So you know sorry, I think in this uh complexity it's a puzzle game. I think with puzzle games we should probably include difficulty in that. Is the difficulty uh good or is it uh not is it too hard or too easy, but you know, is it is it overwhelmingly hard and frustrating, or you know, does it flow quite well once you get the knack of it?

SPEAKER_00 14:23

So the cases, if you do them in order, they start from easy and they work up in terms of complexity. Um the first one I think is a really good way of just testing what the game is asking from you. I think, particularly in the first few games, we got things wrong, not because we'd got them wrong, but because we didn't quite understand what they were asking for. Either we hadn't tracked it back far enough or we tracked it back too far.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Um, and it was just understanding what what point.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Um when you call it and say, I've got the answer, because it's sometimes the questions uh particularly uh particularly the who questions that will say something like, Who is this person?

SPEAKER_00 15:04

And sometimes it's the man that's wearing the hat.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Yeah, sometimes the answer is it's the man that's wearing the hat. Sometimes it's the answer is it's the man that's wearing a hat, but he's the fishmonger.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

You know, and that isn't always especially clear, and I think we've fallen foul of either going off on an absolute tangent because we were going too far and losing the thread, or not going far enough and going, oh, we've we've we've jumped at that a step too soon. Um which you know that that does happen. In general, I I I think mileage would vary from person to person. I found this quite easy, yes, but that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it. Um I don't think it was brain-burningly taxing or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

It's a game itself, so the rules of the game are straightforward. I mean, I don't think even they take up one side of a of a oh god, paper sizes. We don't know.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Maybe we should stop talking about them. Yeah, small piece of baby.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Small piece of paper. Um and the questions that are being asked of you on the cards aren't particularly complex either. No, very simple. The devil in the details, yeah. But what the challenge is trying to find the answer looking through the map. So in that sense, it's really, really simple, and it is a really, really simple game, but it is still fun.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Yeah, it is still fun, and it is complex, and it can it there are moments where it is very difficult. I mean, there are moments where you start very talking about.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

In the last one, you're following three different threads and trying to follow all those three threads and then reverse it back again to come to your natural conclusion. Yeah. Um, and there is an element of in inference that you have to make and a bit of deduction. It's quite obviously there when you look at it and you can see it, but you still need to find that point.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Yeah, you need to find that thread. Yeah, and there are moments where you can have a if you've been paying attention to the story the game's been telling, you can have an aha moment and skip a little bit because you go, I reckon it's that, and you look there and you go, Oh, yeah, I was right.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Or you go, I'm just researching for this person, but I don't know who the fuck that is, but they're gonna be a problem in a later scenario that I'm gonna remember. They're gonna remember where they are because they think about it.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Um I think it ramps up quite well. I think it starts off super simple. I remember after the first four, I was like, Oh, where's this going? Yeah, like is this gonna be the same thing over and over again? And yes, it is the same thing over and over again, but they do they do fun things with it, and I I think it's when it started to get into it's uh it's it's stri for me is when things start splitting up. You're like, oh, actually, there's two things going on here, and you need to follow these two threads in two different directions. Um, that's when it started to get really quite interesting.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Um, we had a couple of moments of frustration, but nothing that's made me want to quit or put it away or anything like that. It's just been like, oh good.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

And certainly towards the later game, like later, sorry, scenarios, I definitely realised it was a me issue rather than something else, whereas perhaps earlier game I was like, Am I missing something, am I not getting it? Whereas actually having the f faith in the fact that the game is simple, it is there, you just need to find it.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Yeah, you're probably overthinking things, you just need to find something you've missed. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Um, so for that reason I scored it an eight.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Yeah, I scored an eight as well. I think it it perfectly suits the difficulty level, perfectly suits the game. Yeah. Um, it doesn't become overly, you know, ridiculously complex, it doesn't become ridiculously frustrating and brain-burny, where you just like, oh, I can't be bothered with this anymore. You never reached we never reached that point playing through it. So yeah, an eight.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Okay, so then shelf life. So we're talking about things like value for money and replayability. So you've already said once you've played it, you're done with it. I mean you can't replay it again.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

This is a one and done.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

It's a one and done, and so even if you played it with a different set of people, well you still know the answer. Um, so it is definitely a one and done. Um, how much does it retail for?

SPEAKER_01 18:56

So this retail's new for about 20 quid, but I know because it's a one and done, it tends to float around on on on trades, and you know, people selling secondhand copies quite a lot, and that tends to be the the sort of£15 mark.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

And I suppose really could you complete it in one evening? I think it'd be a bit fuller on complete in one evening.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

I wouldn't want to.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Yeah, I would say two, like if you harcord it, if you really harcord it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Like two evenings, but probably uh I think you're looking at about five to six hours in total.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

There are thereabouts. Um I mean if you had to just sit down and hardcore the whole thing in one session on your own, you could probably get through in like three, three and a half hours, I imagine, but uh why would you want to do that? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Yeah. Um so on that basis, I think that's a really, really nice price point.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

I mean it's cheaper than two cinema tickets.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Well, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

And um I think as long as you understand what you're getting into, um, I think a ball game is a funny whole thing, isn't it? Because you can pay 50 quid for a ball game and get a hundred hours out of it. You can also pay£250 for a Kickstarter that turns out you don't really like and play it once.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Or it doesn't even turn up.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Or it doesn't turn up. You know, it's it's it's it's a really hard thing to quantify. It's a really hard thing to put a sort of price tag on. I think, particularly when you enter the legacy space and the one and done space, because it's it's about what that time, what's that money versus time versus entertainment ratio means to you. Um we pick this up second hand, I think I pay£15 for it. Um I have zero regrets paying paying that price for it, none at all.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Yeah, no, absolutely not. And I think I would even pay 20 quid full price. I think that's absolutely reasonable. Yeah, I I'd be really happy with that. But again, now we've played it, we will be passing on.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Passing on because you know we're done with it. Um but I imagine with some poor gamers, that's there's also a beauty of actually being able to get rid of case for your connection when you're done, you're officially done with them because most other games are like, am I done with that? I don't know if I'm done with that, I'll go back to that. This one, you're done.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Um, but that said, it is a one and done thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Um, so I don't think I can rate it particularly highly based on that. No. Um if I include the price point and the value for money, then I probably pitch it at around a five. I think if I just talk about replayability, then it has to be Well, I don't think you can.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

I think you'd be doing a disservice to talk about replayability. I think we have to kind of MA that side of things with us because it you we know you know what you're getting into. And if you don't, we're telling you it's one and done. There's no replayability there whatsoever.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Alright, well, it's four or a five then.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Yep, I've gone for the six.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

I think it's I I think it's fairly good value for money.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

I th I think here's the question Would you buy the other not expansions, what you call them?

SPEAKER_01 21:42

The the other ones in the series. I would. I think the only issue I have with it is space. Table space. I think as soon as you get beyond the first, if you're Oh, as in like linking the maps up. Yeah. Would I do another one in Ice would I do another one in isolation? Yeah, I would. I don't think I'd pay for. Full price new for it, but I pick it up second hand.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Um, I yeah, I enjoyed my time with it. I think I'd need quite a break after completing this before wanting to play another one.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

I mean we have just done the marathon session, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

So, you know, yes, I would. It doesn't put me off, which is I think I think what I went for is six. I think I I think anything higher than that would be being a bit disingenuous because you know, uh, shelf life is shelf life. Um, if you want something highly rated in that category, this is not it.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Um, and I don't think that's a bad thing with this game. I don't think it's a very massive negative score. We've just got to be sort of honest about where we where we sit with that. So yeah, six and five sounds about right.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Uh so our final category under our general scoring is fun.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Did you have fun playing it?

SPEAKER_01 22:41

I absolutely did. Yeah. Did I have the most fun TM? No. Um, you know, I I can think of more fun ball games. Like it doesn't scratch every itch for me. It was uh it was a foray into something I hadn't experienced before, which was cool. Um would I still go for a more traditional ball game over it? Probably, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Yeah, so I would agree with that. Um I had fun, I enjoy playing it. Am I gonna be an absolute um hardcore devotee to the series? No, probably not. However, there are some absolute perfect scenarios and situations where this game is an absolute trump. So, for a start, it's a map and a box of cards. So if you're going travelling away for a weekend and you want something to play while you're travelling, this is it. I mean, it takes up quite a lot of space to play, you need a big table to play it on. But if you're going away to or floor, but if you're going to an Airbnb or a hotel for a weekend, this is an absolute game for you. If you want to have um friends over for an evening, for example, or like you again, you you know, you've got some friends staying with you. This is a really nice game that can take you through a couple of days for like evening, like um it's classic after dinner entertainment, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 23:58

It's that kind of thing, it's very easy to teach, it's very easy to pull out, it's very easy to transport. Yeah, well, I mean not everyone, but you know, yeah, uh but most people will be able to have some some fun with it. And it definitely does have its moments, it's that it's that constant dopamine hit of aha, I've got it, aha, I've got it. You know, it it I wouldn't say it makes you feel clever in the way that some puzzles can.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

No, but it's satisfying.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

But it's very satisfying, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

When you're like, yeah, we've got it, and also knowing you've got it, because again, I've always found that you know it. Once you've got it, you've got it. Yeah, you turn the card over just to check that you've got it right.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

And yeah, yeah. So yeah, I have had a lot of fun playing with it. Um, I don't know, yeah, I don't know if it will replace traditional cooperative or competitive board games and such for me, but I think it fills a different niche um in in this tabletop gaming space.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

And funnily enough, probably on the back of this, we have got other puzzle games.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

It's it's sparked an interest for me, and I'm I'm going to try the Unlock series and the exit series off the back of it just to see what they're like and and and play around with them. I'm sure you'll hear our thoughts on that further down the line. Yeah. Um, and I do see a universe where I will buy the next in the series at some point when I feel the itch, which I imagine I will at some point. So, yeah, I've given it a seven.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

I gave it a six.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Okay, fine, cool. Okay, so that gives us an overall general rating of seven.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

I think that's quite high actually.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Yeah, I think that's good.

unknown 25:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

I think that's that's about right with me.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

So our next uh set of scoring criteria are looking at that two player factor.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Playing this as a as a pair.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Yeah. So our first category is table talks that includes things like getting to know you, the amount of active time you have at the table, and yes, we are talking a lot.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

But also not yeah, that's not helpful to you, Lista. I I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

So there's a real element, I think, when when one of you spots something, you're like, Yeah, he's doing this, I'm gonna track him back here, or you know, is that it? Is that them, or what's he doing there?

SPEAKER_01 26:04

So there is that, but there is also that quiet time where you are so there's a lot of people around the table staring at the map for extended periods, so that that gets longer the deeper you go in, I found.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Yeah. Um there isn't so there is a degree of I said this earlier, making inferences based on things. So, for example, that guy and that girl are there, maybe they're in a romantic trist, and someone is for example, but it's not like you are having to do any duct deduction together, it's not like you're having to road test hypotheses together.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

No, it's more about like we've seen the situation, do you think that's it or not? And discuss.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Yeah. And obviously, there is reading the cards out and those sorts of things.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yeah, I think it's kind of middle of the road-ish for me. I think there is there is a fair bit of chatter, but it's very focused chatter, and it's very it's punctuated by long silences.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

That's been my experience of it anyway. Or our experience of it from my perspective, should I say.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Um and there's no in-depth discussion in the cooperative board game space that you would expect that if that if that means anything. It's very much, you know, check-check balance. Okay, let's go with that.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yeah. But also, again, I think if you cracked this out as you were beginning to get to know somebody, we're dating somebody, it's a really lovely game because it there's enough structured discussion, and that you can feel the silence be okay with the silences in between. So it's a kind of a nice lovely icebreaker. Yeah, lovely icebreaker. There we go. Thank you very much for phrasing.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Yeah. Okay, alright. So I mean I've given it a six.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Yeah, I gave it a six.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Okay, so we're on the page, the same page now. Uh cooperativity. How how cooperative is it?

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Well, yes. I mean, you're not actively murdering people, um if someone's trying to find you out. So, yes, it is definitely cooperative. And the map is very detailed and quite small. And I think earlier on we were better at this that we were able to sit side by side and search through the map.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

But at some point it became really, really difficult because as things got more complicated, you had to really focus in, and it became very difficult for the other person to then be part of it. To then be part of it.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

There were times when that didn't happen, so say, for example, where you have to then track back several different characters and and things like that, and where it became a real advantage, and this kind of goes on to the scalability question, it kind of all this becomes very hand in hand for me. Definitely feel like as things got more complicated, you took a lead, and I just sort of supported a bit supported a little bit, and that's largely because I was having to look upside down because I couldn't I couldn't really get an in on the lab because you were looking.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yeah, fair enough. And um I think there are moments where it excels where you have to go off in different directions, so you've got to track multiple threads at the same time. That's where it starts to feel truly cooperative, because I imagine that would be quite difficult to do if you were alone. Um, but for the most part, if somebody's sort of tracking something along and they're in the right position, again, maybe it's about set up and having just a complete clear space around the table and not letting people sit down. I I I don't know, it's it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Yeah. Um, but yeah, it becomes if you're playing for any extended period, if you're not sat down, you're bending over a table, you're hunched over, you're hunched over a table, and that's not a comfortable playing experience.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

But it it's it's difficult to clearly split up efforts, if that makes sense. You know, once somebody's off on a following a tangent, you also don't want to lose that thread, so you're kind of just in your own little world and go, you know, I'm following this the thread. Um yeah, it it works, but it also doesn't. It's it's it I think a lot of that's to do with interpersonal stuff and how you play and all the rest of it. And I think you could probably police it a little bit more, make it a bit more like you know, okay, this is my this is my section of the map, this is yours, perhaps you could do it that way.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Well, maybe you each take a turn solving that one question, that one clue. That one clue within the the thing.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Whereas we just both just sort of went at it, didn't we?

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Yeah, and whoever got the thing first and saw the picture first, that's it. We would then go.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

So yeah, it's a tough one, and it's a difficult one to score because you know it's it's a puzzle you do together, but is it a cooperative game as such? Maybe no? I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Yeah, I didn't really know how to score this, and therefore I gave it a five because I was like spang in the middle.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Yeah, I also gave it a five.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Yeah, yeah. Again, I think it's really situational.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yeah, I think it is really situational. Can you have fun doing it together? Yeah, but it's it's it's a funny one, it doesn't really fit into this criteria that neatly.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Yeah, and that leads us very neatly onto the scalability.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Okay. So, yeah, I mean the scalability thing, I the again, if you haven't listened to our previous podcast, scalability is all around a does this play perfectly well at two, how well does it play at two? And do you do you feel you're missing something by not playing it with more? Absolutely not. I think adding more cooks to the the kitchen in this case is a good one.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Well no, because one person we already found that I was not engaging in it because I was letting you run with it. So if you add a third person in, well, that third person's gonna be off like dusting the ceilings.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Yeah, it I I I don't think this would work with four people around a table at all. Um, I mean, maybe it will for some, and maybe you'd each take a quadrant of the map and stick to it. I I don't know, I don't even know how that would work. I just think it would be a case of too many cookies. You'll be crowding around the same very, very small detail trying to look in.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

And also, by the way, shadows are an issue. So again, we always play in the evening, and therefore there's always a shadow, and I'm like, I'll move your big fat head.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

My head is fat, that's true. Um so yeah, it's it it's something that I uh I cannot recommend for more than two, and I think it does work perfectly well as two. It's a it's a nice thing to do together.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

So we've always talked about scalability, like would three help?

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

But for me, the thing that I keep thinking about is well, does the second player add um uh cause a barrier? And as it is this better as a single solo player game?

SPEAKER_01 32:40

As a solo game, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

The thing is, I don't think I would play board games solo, that's not my bag, that's not my jam.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

I don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

However, I can't help but think this is a solo game. And that we are playing as a two-player and it doesn't detract anything particularly, but it's still at its core a solo game.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Yeah, it is one of those instances of It's the opposite of FOMO. Yeah, it's almost the reverse of where we usually score this down because usually when a game scores quite lowly on this, it's because it desperately cries out for more people. I we've never had an instance of like is two too much. Yeah, you know. Um I think what it goes back to for me is is it a fun experience for two people?

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

It is, yeah. Is it the best two-play experience you can have?

SPEAKER_00 33:24

No, no, and do I think that it would actually be a bit better as one if I was that was my my job. Probably, yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yes, probably. Yeah, so it's a really hard one to score as a result.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Because the the core concept of this criteria that we've always used is does it play better with more? That's always been the underlying thing around this. And in that case, I score's a ten. But I can't give it a ten because I don't think it is the perfect two-player experience.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

So I am going to give it a six.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

So I gave it a five because again I didn't know how to rate it, and so I put it bang in the middle because I was like, I think it plays fine as a two-player, I do think it'd be slightly better as a one player, but also again, it's not the best, it's not the best two player game that we've ever played.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

No, but it's I don't think it ever was going to be that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

No. But again, certain situations.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Yeah, exactly. Alright, so that gives us a board with each other two-player rating of five point five. As always, we round, so a six.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Yeah, well, I think that's probably higher than I would have placed it.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Yeah, fair enough. I mean five point five, we're rounding up, aren't we? So, yeah. Okay, fair enough. I think it it's kind of sad because I think we we're approaching it through the criteria that we've always applied to board gaming, and I don't know if those criteria really fit this game.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Well, I don't know if they really fit this genre of games. Um, or maybe we need to think about whether we actually do review them as we do.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Yeah, but also again, it's not really about scoring because it's it's not the it's not the point, really, it's about discussion again, like because I've liked it a lot more than the score suggest.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Yeah, I think that's the issue I have.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Well, interestingly, I've liked it a lot less than scores suggest.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Okay, fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

I think that's maybe my issue with it. Um I definitely think it's unique, I definitely think it will stand out in my memory, and I think there are perfect there are situations it would be absolutely perfect for.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Do I think this is a game for you and me? No.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Yeah, okay. So on that note, thank you very much for joining us. Um as promised, it's been a slightly shorter, uh shorter podcast today. We have all of our social media is up as per usual, and if you do give us a listen on your podcast medium of choice, a review would be very much appreciated. We are definitely small fry, but your reviews mean uh an awful lot to us. Um, but until next time, have fun, be good to each other, and play a lot of support games.