Today on the Bouncebackability Podcast,
Simon and Rusty reflect on the first series, sharing insights from their conversations with some amazing and truly insightful guests. Learn about defining resilience, the impact of toxic environments, the significance of language in shaping our attitudes towards challenges or setbacks and loads more. Join us as we explore these key themes and how they’ve influenced their own thinking as leaders.
On our guest list:
Becoming Britain’s first female NFL coach with Phoebe Schecter | Episode 2
In this episode:
03:43 Having clarity in language and understanding how resilience can be different for people at different times.
07:06 Supportive environment and individual preferences in workplace - why it's so important.
11:12 Why we need to focus on environmental resilience for organizational benefits.
15:46 Sharing stories about challenges and failures can make people feel less alone and empower them to learn and grow.
16:30 Humans fear failure, unlike animals.
22:09 Themes: storytelling, connection, culture, belonging, knowledge-sharing.
25:28 How Justin overcomes adversity with help from mentors.
29:14 Balancing challenge and support for leaders' development.
31:52 Sharing insights on stress management.
Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/
Today on the Bouncebackability Podcast,
Simon and Rusty reflect on the first series, sharing insights from their conversations with some amazing and truly insightful guests. Learn about defining resilience, the impact of toxic environments, the significance of language in shaping our attitudes towards challenges or setbacks and loads more. Join us as we explore these key themes and how they’ve influenced their own thinking as leaders.
On our guest list:
Becoming Britain’s first female NFL coach with Phoebe Schecter | Episode 2
In this episode:
03:43 Having clarity in language and understanding how resilience can be different for people at different times.
07:06 Supportive environment and individual preferences in workplace - why it's so important.
11:12 Why we need to focus on environmental resilience for organizational benefits.
15:46 Sharing stories about challenges and failures can make people feel less alone and empower them to learn and grow.
16:30 Humans fear failure, unlike animals.
22:09 Themes: storytelling, connection, culture, belonging, knowledge-sharing.
25:28 How Justin overcomes adversity with help from mentors.
29:14 Balancing challenge and support for leaders' development.
31:52 Sharing insights on stress management.
Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/
Simon Ursell [00:00:00]:
Simon and Rusty here with the Bounce Back Ability podcast. The podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks, and challenges.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:07]:
Hope you enjoy the pod.
Simon Ursell [00:00:09]:
Looking forward to it. Listen on.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:13]:
Hey, Simon You alright? Yeah.
Simon Ursell [00:00:14]:
I'm good. Thanks, buddy. How are you?
Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:16]:
I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited to catch up on what we've learned from the pod so far in many things such as Justin's, Top Gun call sign, that you love cheese and pickles sandwiches. I do.
Simon Ursell [00:00:29]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:30]:
And we're both huge, Stalkers of Phoebe on social media.
Simon Ursell [00:00:35]:
Oh, we certainly are. Yeah. It's been it's been Phoebe seems a long time ago.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:41]:
It all seems such a long time ago. I have no idea why it
Simon Ursell [00:00:44]:
was Christmas. That was that we were god. We Where we were sat at was is Chester, was it, we were in? I can't remember.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:52]:
It's it's it's a blur. I know you met Mustafa. I think you drove up to Nottingham, and I was on Zoom.
Simon Ursell [00:00:58]:
That's fine.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:59]:
We we definitely went to Google and definitely had some nice food.
Simon Ursell [00:01:02]:
We did.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. Look. I I thought it'd be, you know, end of 2023, start of 2024. Great time to reflect. Yep. Series 1, season 1, whatever we wanna call it, whether Netflix expired.
Simon Ursell [00:01:16]:
Let's Season 1.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:17]:
That's what that's season 1.
Simon Ursell [00:01:18]:
That's cool, isn't it?
Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:19]:
We just thought, yeah, let's explore some themes, see what stuff's come across to us, and then Maybe at the end, we can have a little bit of a you know, we I know we both got a bias for action. So what have we done about it? And then Probably also like Yeah. What do we wish we did about it, which is Yeah. Well probably more telling.
Simon Ursell [00:01:35]:
But there's so much, isn't there? I mean, been I've been going back there and listening to the episodes because I knew we're gonna have this chat, and there's so much stuff. And wow, the guests have been incredible. I mean, it's they've I've enjoyed each one, but I think they're going back there, you realize. You know? We've we're quite lucky to be able to speak to some of these people, are we?
Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:55]:
Well, I think I said on the pod, if if I'd spent 40 hours with Kirk of, you know, in my life, I'm still learning new things from him. And, again, I'll maybe it's my memory that's The reason I'm learning new things for him because I listened back to it, and I was still learning
Simon Ursell [00:02:09]:
new things. Yeah. Yeah. You just forget everything. Well, it's quite intense, I guess, isn't it? We're, you know, we're chatting away. You kind of you don't always remember everything, do you?
Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:18]:
Yeah. So, So, look, this is probably look, if you haven't listened to season 1, this is a summary of it. It might it might mean you don't have to, or it might make you wanna listen to some of the episodes.
Simon Ursell [00:02:28]:
You don't necessarily wanna just get rusty in siren summary because there's some cool guests on there. So, yeah, I would go back and have a listen, but, Yeah. We'll do our best to summarize it.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:37]:
Well, let's go. The first the first kind of theme that I thought was helpful for people to understand is really interesting for me. I had Speaking to a team that did really well in the premiership rugby yesterday about their mental skills program. And so Mustafa spoke about defining it. So he said about, like, the white review and that ability to suffer. And I know we were speaking earlier. You're talking about how people might weaponize the language. And So I guess,
Simon Ursell [00:03:04]:
weaponizing of resilience. I mean, it's just wrong,
Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:06]:
isn't it?
Simon Ursell [00:03:07]:
That Mustafa thing was really that upset me a bit.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:09]:
I haven't noticed that you love Mustafa's one. I thought you'd kept that to yourself.
Simon Ursell [00:03:14]:
I love them all. Mustafa's one was good, but I love them all. I think I think, I've had that there's a fair few profound things that are current, and the stuff is saying that I've used a lot actually. But then, you know, he's He's be he's, you know, associate professor, and his main focus is around bounce back ability. Although he doesn't like the word, does he? But I think we managed to persuade him it was okay to use. But, yeah, he's he's been I mean, he's an expert in this in the theme of the in the theme of the pod. So, yeah, he was he was good.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:43]:
Yeah. I just think maybe it's maybe that's my first takeout really of all of this is, like, just making sure you have clarity on the language. Maybe understanding, like, what bounce back ability, what resilience, whatever your language is, looks like for different people at different times and agreeing that stuff for maybe doing a bit of a, Like, show me what it would look like if I just read a really good quote then actually. It was about, Alex Ferguson talking about The best time to judge your player is when their team is losing. So understanding Yeah. What that might look like, what really good bounce back ability might look, feel, sound, Smell like was vile, really.
Simon Ursell [00:04:22]:
Oh, for sure. I mean, yeah, I completely hear that. I mean, vocabulary is massive. And it came across in all of the pods, didn't it? I mean, there was a lot of talk about, you know, the type of vocabulary and words that you're using. I mean, Suzanne, we we covered it a little bit in hers. Do you know? The the sort of weaponizing of of resilience, using it to to beat people, say, oh, you're weak. You're not resilient. The reality is it's not necessarily the most helpful word.
Simon Ursell [00:04:50]:
Being a bit more playful around it and and individualizing it is gonna it's It's something that I think does help.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:04:57]:
Yeah. I think Fletch mentioned, like, the playfulness of all of this as well. Something he spoke well about, like, Sometimes it looks like leaders aren't having that much of a good time. Actually, I think we he was talking about maybe we create a bounce back ability board game as well, But just being a bit more playful with this, like, it like, sometimes it becomes this kind of really serious workshop, whereas actually we could be, like, Much more inclined to learn more about ourselves through play.
Simon Ursell [00:05:26]:
Yeah. I don't know if Suzanne or listened to this, but I remember once again, she she, as we've talked about, she runs A gym, an emotional fitness gym for us. And I remember walking into one of her sessions, and she had some music on and was dancing around in her pants. And, I was like, what's going on here? It's a bit weird. But actually, she was just helping us take down some of the seriousness and some of the fear and, very clever cleverly done. She's asked, you know, bright lady. But it was yeah. I think playfulness, enjoyment, fun, you lose it.
Simon Ursell [00:06:00]:
And I I I and most leaders I know, it's it's stressful. It's hard. People get really ill being a leader or Or, or running a team, those kinds of things. It's it's pretty hard, and you gotta have fun. I mean
Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:12]:
Yeah. And that's definitely the new Suzanne who's dancing like a shaman, by the way, which leads into my 2nd big theme and your favorite one is just environment. So, again, we're gonna get into some stuff around individuals and Tactics and skills, but actually and and Phoebe said it, like, the the one that resonated most me was just get out of toxic environments. Like, The reality is they explain a lot of behaviors. You're probably learning some of unhelpful stuff. What are your thoughts? What are your reflections on that?
Simon Ursell [00:06:43]:
Yeah. I mean, I I think Phoebe Phoebe's sort of, story is so inspiring, isn't it? And the way she she's dealt with things. She has had some real challenges. She's used those. She She talked about the scars and the making us stronger, but definitely get out. You know, if you realize that you're you're in an environment that's not that great, Move on. Don't just sit there and think it's gonna change. Probably won't.
Simon Ursell [00:07:06]:
And I think, you know, you you work in Also, I've I mean, I've worked in toxic environments. You have everybody has. You realize afterwards how bad it was, and the importance of having people around you help you realize that. That, so getting out getting out of your environment and seeing what others are like will help you. This and the work we've done with Suzanne has made us realize that environments aren't right for everyone. I mean, I I love Tyler Grange, But there are plenty of people out there who've been in Tyler Grange, who hated being in Tyler Grange because it just wasn't their type of environment. Say, it's individual. So you gotta, yes, work on your environment, make it amazing, but realize that some people aren't gonna like it and be cool with that.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:50]:
Yeah. And I guess a couple of builds from that. 1 is there's a real kind of across the board again, and Kirk's like this expert in related worlds, but as you said, like, getting into other environments, learning from them. And the second one is like it is. It's like the every environment's different. So I know you and Fletcher had a bit of a joke about mechanical, what's the mechanics of this? I
Simon Ursell [00:08:10]:
think. Yeah.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:08:10]:
But, actually, having worked with John Fletcher And, you know, it it just isn't mechanical. He talks about feel a lot, but he's really intentional. He knows every interaction, especially with a leader, is of really High value and high importance. I was just telling you a story there. I was speaking to a psychologist in a football club. They've just changed manager, And he said the technical director said to him, you know, actually, everyone that's in the room now is now safe, and, you know, I've the the new manager wants to work with them. And he said, Do you think you should tell them? Because there's a room full of people really stressed over there, and you might not be getting the best out of them. So Just every interaction, every moment, you know, understanding, like I'm sorry.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:08:53]:
I'm building on something, but just and again, just Clarity, planning, debriefing
Simon Ursell [00:09:00]:
Yeah.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:09:00]:
Reflecting
Simon Ursell [00:09:01]:
Yeah.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:09:02]:
All the time.
Simon Ursell [00:09:03]:
I mean, Justin, I I I I loved the podcast with Justin. And listening back to it again, he's just from a world I don't understand. You know, he's in a world where, consequences. Massive. You know? And if you get things wrong, people are gonna die, literally. I mean, and that terr I find that terrifying. And, Yeah. So so he's he's worked in the most extreme environment I can imagine.
Simon Ursell [00:09:27]:
Maybe there are others, but he he, I found that It was pretty profound. And the the story he told about walking around the barracks where he he was he was really, really, really angry And had a had a foul mood. And he walked around was stamping his feet and screaming and shouting. And then it took somebody else to come up to him and say, Do you realize you've just ruined everybody's day and made everybody really stressed? Say, he was creating an environment there which is incredibly unhelpful for people to To bounce back from challenges. And I think right across all of the episodes we've done, the thing that seems to be getting missed by most people Is they are paying attention to the per personal resilience, their their own resilience, other people's resilience. They're not really paying that much attention To the environment and Mustafa's analogy, if the plant isn't growing, I I can't remember it exactly, Russell.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:25]:
Oh, well, you were quite happy to correct me on it in a previous episode.
Simon Ursell [00:10:29]:
I've already said my mind is terrible, But but it's, it you don't you don't, look at the plant. You water the you water the soil. You put nutrients in there.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:39]:
You have completely I've lost it. Blown this.
Simon Ursell [00:10:42]:
I've lost it. Well, go on then. You tell me what it is.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:44]:
I think it's something like, if a flower isn't blooming, you You don't fix the flower. You you fix the environment in which it's growing.
Simon Ursell [00:10:52]:
That's that's much better
Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:54]:
than you've done.
Simon Ursell [00:10:55]:
So your memory's better than mine. You're so modest. But yes. But that but that is that is unbelievably powerful. And I think if there was one takeaway from all of our episodes, it would be, Yeah. Everybody everybody is working really well on themselves. Well, they're no. They're not.
Simon Ursell [00:11:12]:
A lot of people are working really well on There's a lot of focus on individual resilience. There is less focus on environmental resilience, and it's As important, probably more important to work on the environment. So if you're a leader, if you're a coach, If you're responsible for a bit of your organization, the effort you put into creating a a safe, Happy, resilient environment is going to create major benefits for you. And we we can go to the 4 day week episode where we talked about that. We can go to the Suzanne episode where we talked about the effort, Tyler Grange has put into working with psychologists to help people feel safer. The the the actual data behind that Tyler Grange and across other organizations is profound. 70% reduction in absenteeism. We're now at 30% increase in productivity On a 4 day week, it's it's unbelievable, really.
Simon Ursell [00:12:14]:
And that is about working on the environment. That we haven't worked on the individuals much In that, we've really worked on our environment, and it's the benefits are huge. So, yeah, do that.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:24]:
Yeah. And a couple of builds again, just Justin's like, they're doing that all the time. So, like, every day, they're doing a bit of planning, a bit of pre morphing. They're doing reviewing. They're doing it collectively. I love what he said about Understanding, like, when is flat helpful? When is, like, not having a leader who's, like, Towering over people, telling them what to do. When is flat helpful? And, again, I mean, my and and I know we chatted about on the pub, but that that 1% club, I think there's a lot of people sleepwalking through this stuff. They're doing it.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:56]:
You know, they're not really intentional around it. It's quite accidental Being Yeah. Really intentional on a daily basis with his stuff.
Simon Ursell [00:13:04]:
Marketing, isn't it? They're just sort of they're saying it, but not doing it, really. And that's I mean, Justin, I I'm actually thinking I'm gonna get Justin back into tiny grain soon because, I reckon we've got some work to do on delegating. We've got some we we've we've had a a really intense year. It's been really busy. And I think, we've we have Some work to do around delegating and empowering and that kind of stuff. And one of the things I think Justin's experience in the air force and in the military Around how he delegates and how well he delegates, he's so good at it.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:13:43]:
Me and Joe Danse have just created something on delegation. I will show. You Have you? Yes. Yeah. But, again, he spoke about it, didn't he? And, again, we got people in TG that I've had conversations with and said, Like, if you solve delegation, would it solve everything? And they're like, yeah. Like Probably. It's and it probably ties in again. And another theme from across the Episodes was around just looking after yourself, about recharging Yeah.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:14:09]:
About, you know, finding time to Just stop and be still. Obviously, the 4 day week creates that, and we you've chat about that. Mike's Chatted about that. Mustafa chatted about it. Claire Murphy chatted about it, you know, and and she is often the person that's going into these environments and Taking people out and taking them off the hamster wheel and allowing them to storytell and and and almost look at themselves in the 3rd person. And, Yeah. I mean, what what are your thoughts? What have you taken from, the the the c the series so far on that?
Simon Ursell [00:14:43]:
What the what with current storytelling?
Rusty Earnshaw [00:14:45]:
Well, no. Yeah. And and also just around the, like, the individual and recharging and
Simon Ursell [00:14:50]:
Oh, yeah. I mean, sure. I mean, it's it's it's massive. I I mean, did you you can't sustain performance 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. You can't sustain support performance 5 days a week, 8 hours a day. I would argue you can't sustain performance 4 days a week, 8 hours a day actually, but, you you've gotta have some breaks. You've gotta build in some some Breaks and some time to recharge, refresh, reflect. I mean, Clare's Episode was just sensational.
Simon Ursell [00:15:22]:
You love I love her. Actually, I've got one of Claire. Claire's We recently managed away, and one of our friends is coming into TG to do some storytelling with us because the communication side of things is massive with resilience and bouncing back. Being able to share experience and say, this happened to me. This this is something that happened. I mean, Phoebe spoke about this quite a bit. This happened to me. This This was a challenge I had.
Simon Ursell [00:15:46]:
That makes other people feel really cool about the fact that they're experiencing the same stuff, the impostor syndrome sort of things. Those stories are massive because it it it makes people realize that they're not, you know, putting somebody in a senior position, In a senior coaching or whatever, on a pedestal, oh, they're amazing. They they don't have challenges. The stories about those challenge There's a so empowering for everybody to realize that we're all humans. We all we all fail, and how we how we fail is how we learn. That just pops straight into my head, Kirk's episode Talking about AI and how it just it just fails, and it doesn't judge itself. It just keeps fading until it's perfect.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:23]:
It takes emotion out of it. It's gonna just relentlessly pursue it. Yeah. Unlike, humans sometimes.
Simon Ursell [00:16:30]:
Unlike humans. Yeah. We get in our way a bit, don't we? Because we're you know, we think it's so important not to fail. Suzanne, didn't she? She she spoke about, animals spending their time, not getting eaten, running away from predators. These big humans are are, responses to not lose relationships. We're hardwired to have relationships, and I think Failure and those fears is all about, I don't wanna lose a relationship. So if I fail, I might lose a relationship. I might get into trouble.
Simon Ursell [00:17:01]:
And actually, again, you go back to the environment.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:04]:
How do we create an environment where
Simon Ursell [00:17:04]:
people are genuinely not worried about losing relationships? Because I think we talk about failure, or you need to fail to learn. Fine. But actually, what you need to get across, I think, with what I took away from Suzanne is what we really need to do is we need to understand that we can it's okay To be humans and not to be perfect, you're not going to lose your relationships because that's what that's what causes you to be, That's that's an that interruption learning.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:33]:
Yeah. I'm I'm working with a a some rugby coaches, in a team. And, yeah, one of the coaches has just got this absolute need to be loved by the players. It's actually Getting in the way of some really important conversations
Simon Ursell [00:17:48]:
Yeah.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:48]:
That are, you know, again, leading us to down this spiral. So That really resonates with me. I was just thinking about the the recharge and, over the last, week or so, I've booked all my holidays for the next year and all my trips away, and, couple a couple more to add. But, I was thinking, you know, I'm I'm sticking to my to what I said I was Gonna do on the podcast, or without getting ahead of ourselves. One of the things you just referenced, I was like, getting the best out of people, and I loved when we chat with Kirk about that, almost to get the best out of me report. How's that going?
Simon Ursell [00:18:22]:
Yeah. Not going. I mean, I wanted I mean, yeah, but you forget, don't you? There's so much of these. I mean, Again, go back and listen to these. I mean, if you if you're into if you've heard if you've already listened
Rusty Earnshaw [00:18:32]:
I wrote another page of notes going back to Kirk.
Simon Ursell [00:18:36]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's insane, isn't it? I mean, with the the the guests are good. I mean, they're really good. I mean, you and I just bumble our way through.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:18:45]:
No. But the guests are good, and you're getting better, and I'm getting worse. What is that? Like say to a nonstop stressing me out.
Simon Ursell [00:18:50]:
Getting worse. What are you all about? Honestly, you're worried about losing your relationship, Russ. It's all learning.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:18:56]:
Well, let's talk about the individuals because that's, again, that's another big theme that's Come up as in. I know Phoebe spoke really well, and she had, you know, some scars and some experiences that have I think the way she reframes some of those challenging experiences is incredible.
Simon Ursell [00:19:12]:
But why should people listen to Phoebe's episode? What what what would What would you say? Listen to Phoebe's episode of Big Cause.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:19:20]:
Well, I love her optimism and her energy, like, in real life. I think it comes across in audio, which is pretty exciting. She shares stories. She's had experiences. She's put herself out of her comfort zone. She talks about, like, sometimes we're our biggest obstacle. I think her own self talk is excellent, and I guess she just is Just finding out about yourself. So it's just a great question.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:19:43]:
You know? Like, what did you learn about yourself from that experience? But Phoebe is genuinely putting herself into a variety of Challenging experiences and going, what did I learn about myself? So I guess that's where the when we start to talk about individuals, like, I think Almost all of this starts with self awareness, doesn't it? Okay. This is a toxic environment for me, till it's not a helpful environment for me, then I need to get out of that. So, yeah, I think she's like the the mistress of self awareness. She's pretty good. That's a good phrase. Don't tell her I said that.
Simon Ursell [00:20:14]:
On that LinkedIn profile. Yeah. But, I mean, she's also vulnerable. You know? She also Bounce herself. And and I think often you look at someone like Phoebe who's she's pretty successful and done some pretty cool stuff. You, you know, you start assuming she's pretty superhuman, But she's she's fallible. She's she doubts herself. She's she's worried about herself.
Simon Ursell [00:20:34]:
And it's I think it's nice to listen to the story about how she's achieved despite that. Well, because of that, actually. Call Lady. What about, Mike's episode? Say, the 40 week episode. Why why did you think people should Listen to that
Rusty Earnshaw [00:20:48]:
one. I think, look, from from what you've just said there, like, the impact upon the people working in the environment is profound and Helpful. And maybe and, again, we were just having a discussion, weren't they? Like, this week, my daughter has gone to school Thursday Friday because it's the start of the new year. Yeah. Kind of feels like quite a good balance. You know? 2 days at school, 5 days at home. I think she would prefer it to be closer to that than the way it currently is. And then the second thing with Mike is that with all of this stuff, like, taking that leap of faith, like being brave.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:21:22]:
Yeah. He's brave. As a leader He's brave. Yeah. Like, he's all over he's the new king of LinkedIn. He can have that as his new LinkedIn title. It's essential. Someone's gotta be brave for all of this stuff.
Simon Ursell [00:21:35]:
Yeah. I think I think, bravery is all about resilience, isn't it? And bounce back ability. You know, you're you're if you have the capacity, if you have the rest, you can be braver Because you can you you have more capacity to take more information in, realize that the risk isn't quite as big as you maybe think it is, And actually take the plunge and do it. But, yeah, Mike's a brave guy. I mean, he's he he's gonna he's gonna take risks, which is gonna mean he's gonna be successful. You know, it's the classic. You miss a 100% of the shots you don't take, then you know, that's
Rusty Earnshaw [00:22:09]:
Yeah. I think, like, an and I guess those are those are some of the themes that, you know, we just we've again, we're tip of the iceberg stuff, aren't we? And then I just, You know, relistened to Clare again today on the way here, and I was like she just like her pod almost just, like, unites everything. So, You know, the the work you do with Suzanne, the the stuff Phoebe chatted about, the stuff Kirk did, just that ability to to use stories to connect up, like your environment, your culture, you know, share knowledge, to have shared language, to create belonging. And I just it like, the the 2 words you said was just a storytelling culture.
Simon Ursell [00:22:48]:
Yeah. Yeah. Which is which is gotta be cool. That is the power of it. Well, the and and the fact that we're all doing everybody's already doing it. I mean, what Claire's really doing is helping us be intentional about storytelling, isn't The fact that human beings are storytelling machines, we spend I mean, we're sat here now telling stories about our podcast. It's powerful stuff. Clare, I think, helps us understand how to do that intentionally, really effectively, and understand the pattern, how just how Unbelievably powerful storytelling is.
Simon Ursell [00:23:24]:
That's what came across to me from her episode. It's just that Absolute power around stories, and if you're intentional about it, because you're doing it anyway. I mean, Tyler Granger are gonna be doing a lot more storytelling. We're gonna train Nice to tell stories because they can get information to our clients in a really effective way. That way, they're just gonna be better at their jobs, Wish it's gotta be good.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:23:46]:
Makes sense.
Simon Ursell [00:23:48]:
What about Suzanne's then? Why would you listen to Suzanne's episode?
Rusty Earnshaw [00:23:52]:
Because I'd be scared if you didn't. Yeah. Because, she is she's the most remarkable person I know at holding people to account. So
Simon Ursell [00:24:03]:
She's tough. Actually, that's very unfair. She's not tough. She's incredibly kind because she doesn't let you get away with stuff. It's it's a kind.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:12]:
Yeah. And again That's
Simon Ursell [00:24:13]:
difficult, but it's a real kindness.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:15]:
Yeah. And I I had a catch up with his aunt the other day with some coaches and just got into this kind of Self talk, you know, conversation. What are the, again, what are the stories you're telling yourself? Your, closest relationship with a voice is your own voice, which again, like, you know, you chat about Phoebe and that perhaps self doubt, perhaps imposter syndrome, which came across again in loads of the pods. Like, I think Suzanne just draws our attention towards those types of things and
Simon Ursell [00:24:45]:
Yeah.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:45]:
Helps us find ways of
Simon Ursell [00:24:48]:
Every organization should have somebody should have Suzanne in it, but they can't all have Suzanne. Should have somebody like Suzanne in their organization. It is mass the secret.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:59]:
An AI an AI, Suzanne. A real an even more relentless kind Sure. Suzanne.
Simon Ursell [00:25:05]:
I'm not sure about an AI, Suzanne. But I think, you know, getting a getting psychologists involved, getting Emotional fitness built into your organization. I just think it's completely an utter madness For you to ignore it. You you just you're just wasting your resources by not helping people with emotional fitness.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:25:28]:
And and Let me just tie that up again with, just to remind you of Justin telling the story of his dad and him injuring his back and not wanting to go and do the extra kind of 12 weeks of training and then and just, you know, he was gonna opt out, and his and his and his dad basically told him not to opt out. But just getting mentors and people, the right people around you Yeah. You know, this kind of, resilience by community Yeah. Sharing war wounds, storytelling Yeah. Learning, speaking to the people. Again, I'm working with some coaches, and I just met, Reese Parsons yesterday and said to Reese, like, me and you aren't the people that can help, can help these coaches. It's the people who have had these experiences before, like, Let's connect this person with this person. Let's connect.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:13]:
So those kind of connections, people might call it mentoring, coaching, you know, whatever it might be. As a probably the one thing that I go away from this and go, that's probably what I've been really intentional with For as a result of doing this pod, it's just finding more and more connections like a Suzanne that can be even more helpful for me.
Simon Ursell [00:26:37]:
Yeah. All over that. I think I I would agree that agree with that a 100%. What about Kirk then? I mean, the Kirk episode, You could just listen to that 20 times and still find things you missed.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:47]:
Yeah. I mean, again, I, I I quite like my own analogy if I'm being honest.
Simon Ursell [00:26:51]:
Go on, man.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:52]:
Well, the e the the equal versus equality. So equal is we all get an XL t shirt. Equality is we all get the one that fits us.
Simon Ursell [00:27:00]:
To be fair to you, Rusty, that is
Rusty Earnshaw [00:27:01]:
So I was just at the end. I had a moment of brilliance. And and and the same with bounce back ability and resilience. Like, People need different sized t shirts for this stuff. So understanding, how do I get the best out of you? Where do you go under pressure? What are the signs? What what are the things that help you recharge? How can you do deep work?
Simon Ursell [00:27:25]:
Individualized, Bounce back ability, isn't it? You know, you you you you need to provide individual support to the individual person. You gotta create an environment, stick with your environment, realize that some people aren't gonna want that environment. There are others that you can help and go to. It's individualized. Yes. It's it's the size of the shirt. I mean, it's got to be
Rusty Earnshaw [00:27:47]:
And if I'm honest, just because I know Kirk really well, like, When I relistened to the pod, I after I read the word Kirk, I wrote the dad. And just He's a different person with, like, this new identity of being like a father and a husband and, you know, all that stuff that Changes you and and and, you know, in in lots of the worlds we work in and especially in sport, you know, I I speak to players who are like, And here's some of the language they're using. Like, I'm I'm I'm I feel like I'm going to war every day. I feel like, I'm playing a game. Can't say what I wanna say. K. When I'm not picked, like, then I I feel worthless. So that Having this identity that's just tied to being a rugby player versus
Simon Ursell [00:28:35]:
That's so true.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:28:36]:
Husband, father, coach, mentor, whatever it might be like. So that was the the other bit with Kirk that I thought and and and I've been lucky enough to have, you know, known him over quite a few years now, and I've definitely Seen that in him.
Simon Ursell [00:28:52]:
Well, yeah. Those be being able to access all those different things. It's rest, recuperation, change. That's just great for you. You know? It's it's important to be able to do those things. We've spoken a lot about Justin, so let, what a great episode. Let let's talk about Mustafa. I don't think we've talked enough about Mustafa's episode.
Simon Ursell [00:29:14]:
Of course you don't. The, his challenge and support matrix, I have had that in my head most days, I think. Am I providing too much support? Am I not providing enough support? Am I not giving enough challenge? Am I giving enough to you challenge? Where is that? Where how am I within any individual, with with any environment I'm working in, am I putting that the right amount? Am I is there too much challenge? Is there too little challenge? Trying to find that sweet spot. Because in that sweet spot is bounce back ability. That is where I'm trying to help people to live as a leader in a place where they're being challenged enough. Plenty of chat probably a little bit more than they think they can take. Just a little bit more, just so they're being stretched. Is the environment good enough? Is is are they being supported enough so that they're able to do to to perform at that level?
Rusty Earnshaw [00:30:15]:
Yeah. Draw an x and y axis on a piece of paper. Sit down with the person. Yeah. Get them to put where they think it is. Put you to put where you think it is. Yeah. Maybe even do a zed axis.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:30:25]:
Call it time. Yeah. And actually go, where have we gone over time? But having those types of conversations with people, okay, what would you know, if if if if I could give you a little bit more challenge, where would it be? Okay. Where Where am I missing support? When was when was my support the best? Like, understanding those things and not just, like, guessing. By the way, that's why leadership is hard, isn't it? Because if, you know, I I'd working with someone at the moment, and they're, like, leading slash managing slash coaching. 16 people. Yeah. That's a lot of people.
Simon Ursell [00:30:57]:
There's a lot of people.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:30:58]:
I think Delegate. Delegate. Delegate. Exactly. To judge that. That's the first thing I said. But, of course, our project oxygen would say actually doing that well with 8 people is hard. And so I guess my sense is that To do this well, you've got to make time for it.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:15]:
You don't have time not to do it to find out. You know? And If
Simon Ursell [00:31:19]:
you wanna be successful, you wanna you When I really achieve what you're trying to achieve, whatever that may be, time is crucial. But that doesn't mean you're you you're creating time to do stuff all the time. You gotta have time Break, reflect, so you can't do
Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:34]:
That matrix has literally been your biggest take home from the whole thing, isn't it?
Simon Ursell [00:31:38]:
I think it's probably the most profound effect. I would the weird thing was is I've actually drawn something It was wrong. I've drawn something kinda similar before.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:51]:
It was different.
Simon Ursell [00:31:52]:
It was wrong. Yeah. I but but I kind of yeah. Gary Bamford, who we I think we both know Gary. He's got a cool guy, at Special Forces, helps businesses a lot. He he talks about the saying, the red zone, and the comfort zone. So that was something I kinda worked on before, but I think Mustafa's matrix It's really I find it much more helpful because it allows me I'm thinking about this individual. Are they too stressed? So do we need to take down the challenge? Are they really comfortable and not really performing that well? Do we need to up the challenge? Are they sat in an environment that's really stressful? So once you're looking at the challenge, you can normally work out the environment is probably what's causing too much stress, too little stress.
Simon Ursell [00:32:33]:
So the the thing I try and tweak the most For me, it's not putting more challenge or less challenge on them. It's trying to change the environment in which they're working in. And and often with leaders, The environment is going to be affected most by delegation. Something I think is so important. I've I've noticed some leaders I'm working with I'm just not able to dedicate very well, and I think if they could learn that, they would start to fly.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:00]:
Yes. Well, that's a big problem to have, isn't it?
Simon Ursell [00:33:04]:
It's a cool problem to have, especially if it's if it's understood and realized because you can do something about it.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:09]:
Yeah. Well, everything starts with awareness. I'm excited to show you what I've done on the delegation with Judance.
Simon Ursell [00:33:14]:
I'm excited about that as well, and they've told me. So Clare, And the storytelling stuff, I mean, that I I think just listen to that because I think it's just an understanding of the human Condition. The fact that we have been storytellers for 100 of 1000 of years is built into our DNA. If we're talking about building and losing relationships, stories is how we build relationships. Being intentional About storytelling has to be a skill. It's a life skill everyone ought to try and learn.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:47]:
I met, the MD of a business Just before Christmas, he I said who's been the most impactful people in 2023. I then emailed one of them with a story that that the leader had shared. He replied, you have no idea how much that means to me. Wow. Yeah. Like and Exactly. Yeah. Again, like and and, Again, with Clare, she spoke about you being like, your eyes were wide and you were open jawed.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:34:15]:
She spoke about the guy leaving, like, an inch or 2 taller. That is the impact of intentional storytelling, not just like storytelling for the crack like me. And you might sometimes redo, but being really Well,
Simon Ursell [00:34:28]:
you can do storytelling for the cut, can't you? I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. But I think in terms of, you know, bounce back ability and resilience, Intentional storytelling is gonna be massive. If you if you learn how to do it and learn how to do it well as a leader, it's just a life skill. You know, as a as a parent, it's great. As a as a friend, it's great. As a work colleague, it's great. As a coach, whatever you whatever you're doing, being being intentional And skillful. That storytelling is gonna help you.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:34:58]:
Yeah. And the reason I shared it with that guy is and I think this is true of a lot of people. I'm not Sure. You would know he was doing a great job. So sometimes people again, we've got this kind of inbuilt negativity bias, haven't we, to keep us alive? And Sometimes we're, like, catastrophizing and thinking worst case scenario, and, oh my god, if there's redundancies, I'm gonna be the 1st to go. I wasn't up, by the way. I didn't think I was gonna lose 1 job with the RPU, by the way. But, sometimes we just don't know.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:35:28]:
Sometimes we don't tell people this stuff enough.
Simon Ursell [00:35:31]:
Nice. Sure. And it's hard to tell people things like that. People that people don't like to receive praise. They'll often say, oh, no. You don't mean it. It's it can be embarrassing. Where I'm Suzanne will would, I'm sure, and Mustafa would have sure have lots of, Lots of psychology behind why that would be, but a story about something is so much more accessible.
Simon Ursell [00:35:54]:
So if you're able to tell a story rather than rather than be it's more of a roundabout way of talking about something, isn't it? It's more engaging. It's more collaborative.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:03]:
Yeah. We can see it. And and especially if we both experienced it. I just wrote down now because it's a really good thing. So I do quite a bit of stuff for teams around, like, Important conversations and giving and receiving feedback, and and and very rarely do people talk about, And and maybe it's because a lot of it's in sport, like receiving almost like that. I don't talk about positive or negative feedback. I talk about productive, but Almost receiving pause positive feedback can sometimes be problematic for people. Really hard.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Simon Ursell [00:36:35]:
Well, so if I If I say to you, oh, Rusty, you're not you you know, you've said I'm doing really well, and you're you're declined. That's just nonsense. I mean, you, you know, you You you've done a terrific Oh,
Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:45]:
man. I appreciate it. Podcast.
Simon Ursell [00:36:47]:
But it but yeah. But you're
Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:48]:
I'm I'm I'm 3 inches tall.
Simon Ursell [00:36:50]:
But you're now feeling a little bit shy, and you're starting to take a mickey. So it's it's it's interesting, isn't it? You give somebody some praise. They get it's it's quite hard to receive it.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:58]:
Am I about to be sacked? Is that what's about to happen? Yeah. No. You're not sacked up or what?
Simon Ursell [00:37:04]:
The the it's weird, isn't it?
Rusty Earnshaw [00:37:07]:
Yeah. No. Just it just honestly, it just made me start thinking about it. I know
Simon Ursell [00:37:10]:
people will take you'll Give them a compliment, and I think, he's giving me the compliment because he doesn't wanna tell me the bad stuff. Shit. He used as a mask for the if So and storytelling is terrific because it takes a lot of that stuff away. It'll it's real. You tell a story about something that happened. People will gauge that much better. So yeah. Claire's Claire's episode, sensational.
Simon Ursell [00:37:32]:
John, so Fletcher's episode, John Cock on
Rusty Earnshaw [00:37:37]:
John. Yeah. Well, you can if you're telling them all. John from
Simon Ursell [00:37:39]:
now on. So John's episode was really interesting because we really We've made it on environment, which I think has come across everything. He's he's one of the best people I know. I mean, you know him far better than me, around environment. I mean, Fletch is Fletch would be one of the best people to get in to help build a great environment. I'm I'm sure, Scottish rugby is benefiting gigantically from what he's doing, there. So it's a terrific episode around How to build a great environment and to prioritize enjoyment and happiness because we're all forgetting that that is Gonna help you, be more productive, have a great life. You know, try and be happy.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:24]:
Well, we're all gonna die at some point, and Impressive. We're probably not gonna look back. I'm definitely not gonna look back and go, oh, I wish I'd had more years at, the RFE with Dean Ryan.
Simon Ursell [00:38:36]:
Yeah. Well
Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:37]:
I've said it, but, like, the reality is I'd you know, you at some point, like, you've gotta, like, you've gotta realize that I have one life. Like, what if I, you know, love heaven forbid, but, you know, what if I go go at some point this year? Like Yeah. So we we should be having fun. We should be enjoying it. We should be. Yeah. Let's touch wood. Let's do some touching of wood.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:56]:
And Fletcher's, as you said, like, for me, he's the most intentional. He's thinking. He had a little notebook with you know, he'd work out what motivate people, what stress them out, what would Yeah. Be the right you know, he would just have This encyclopedia of understanding people, being able to be really skillful and intentional with them. And then in the other word that I know we spoke about on the pod that he uses a lot, he uses feel more than think. So he would just like, okay. This moment in time, this feels like we're going in this direction on each other, and it's such a helpful skill for a for a rugby coach because understanding the temperature in the room and
Simon Ursell [00:39:37]:
Yeah.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:37]:
And and and what to do, when, and why is so important.
Simon Ursell [00:39:42]:
Well, we're we're coming to the end of our Summary, Rusty. So maybe we should what do you want? A couple of couple of things that you say this is these these are my this is my top 2 things.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:53]:
What were your top 2 nuggets in the chicken nuggets?
Simon Ursell [00:39:56]:
Well, definitely, challenge support, Mustafa's matrix, and the realization around environment being missed and unbelievably important. So those are my 2 things.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:12]:
For me, Claire Murphy, just like, how can we normalize that? How can we make storytelling Part of what we do, but then also help people understand that it's it's it's not pink and fluffy. And then the other one was, from the Kirk thing was just that, you know, to get the best out of me, dot, dot, dot.
Simon Ursell [00:40:30]:
Yeah. Sure.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:31]:
Just getting people to, a, that our awareness. So sometimes people don't know how to get the best out of themselves, And so we need we need to help them. Yeah.
Simon Ursell [00:40:39]:
Yeah. I'd say 99%
Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:41]:
there. And it's helpful for me to know if I'm working with you, like, How to be part of that equation as well. So That's
Simon Ursell [00:40:47]:
right. Yeah. I'm honest.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:48]:
Those are the those are the 2. I I yeah. Well, I I know that Things that are super important to me like rest and space time to walk and think. I'm really good at factoring that stuff in.
Simon Ursell [00:41:05]:
Yeah. Sure.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:41:06]:
I know their autonomy, and it's interesting the delegation thing. I was thinking about it on the way in as well. People said to me, oh, have you ever thought about, like, creating what you do and having some other people work with you? And and I just thought, no. Delegation. No. I can't do it. Like, I I don't wanna be responsible for the people, and that's why I always say, like, leaders like you and like Mike and they're brave. They take risks.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:41:26]:
Today. You know, they We get a bit
Simon Ursell [00:41:28]:
rusty, but I but I hear you. I hear you. So we we're, we've got some more guests coming up. Season 2 is coming up. What you're excited about? I mean, I'm I'm I'm I'm loving I'm really looking forward to the mindfulness one we're gonna do with Luke. He is such a cool guy. That's gonna be good.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:41:46]:
Yeah. You just made me think about Gary Bamford. He'd be a good person to get on. Jay Jay Carter over in the NZ who runs a brilliant podcast over there. Chat out to Jay, message saying he's loving this pod. So, I've just messaged JC for come on. One of my good friends from uni, James Rutter, we're gonna meet him today.
Simon Ursell [00:42:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited about that. He sounds like a great guy. Yeah. We're just we're gonna have a great we're gonna have a good year, aren't we? I mean, This is one of the best things I've done, full stop, this pod.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:14]:
Well, just I mean, there was 1 more theme. It was the microphones. Yeah. So maybe you're maybe a good nudge to you in 2024 is like
Simon Ursell [00:42:24]:
Find someone else to do the microphone?
Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:28]:
Honestly. Honestly. I feel like I'm on top of the pops in 1967 or something.
Simon Ursell [00:42:32]:
Yeah. Well, but the thing is, you just leave it all to me, and And then take the mickey out of me. I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm giving it a go. I'm being brave.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:38]:
Yeah. You're being you're definitely being brave.
Simon Ursell [00:42:41]:
So but yeah. Maybe I'll try and get A different set of microphones. I don't know. Anyway, it's been a marvel at that year. I've loved the podcast. Really enjoyed doing it Rusty say, it's the 2024. I think it's gonna be, it's gonna be good fun.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:55]:
Yeah. It's 2024. And if anyone out there thinks You should get this person on, and definitely drop either of us a message, and we will, do that.
Simon Ursell [00:43:03]:
Yeah. Over and out.
Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:05]:
Over and out. Thanks so much for joining us on the Vance MacMillan podcast with Simon Russell. We've really enjoyed your company. If you wanna reach out to us, Simon, where can I reach you?
Simon Ursell [00:43:16]:
LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursell, u r s for sugar, e, double l. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?
Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:22]:
Tik talk. No. Not really. LinkedIn, Ross Landshaw, and then the same on Twitter, but please, ignore all my political thoughts. Yeah. Second that. Over