In this episode, Mandelyn John and Rip share their thoughts about hatching eggs, broody hens, and incubators. They share all the details you need to navigate when sourcing hatching eggs. You hear in-depth discussions from identifying a good breeder to shipping and receiving eggs. You'll be better prepared to take on what can be a trying experience for many new to the experience after listening.
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In this episode, Mandelyn John and Rip share their thoughts about hatching eggs, broody hens, and incubators. They share all the details you need to navigate when sourcing hatching eggs. You hear in-depth discussions from identifying a good breeder to shipping and receiving eggs. You'll be better prepared to take on what can be a trying experience for many new to the experience after listening.
You can email us at - poultrykeeperspodcast@gmail.com
Join our Facebook Groups:
Poultry Keepers Podcast -
https://www.facebook.com/groups/907679597724837
Poultry Keepers 360 - - https://www.facebook.com/groups/354973752688125
Poultry Breeders Nutrition - https://www.facebook.com/groups/4908798409211973
Check out the Poultry Kepers Podcast YouTube Channel -
https://www.youtube.com/@PoultryKeepersPodcast/featured
Hi, I'm Mandelyn Royal, and I would like to welcome you to another episode of the Poultry Keepers podcast. Joining me in the studio are John Gunterman and Rip Stalvey, the rest of our podcast team, and we're looking forward to visiting with you and talking poultry from feathers to function.
Rip Stalvey:Have you ever been wondering how to source hatching eggs? Have you been wondering about the different incubation types for hatching your chicks? We're going to pull back the curtain on those topics and more coming right up. Let's start out with some hatching basics. Question for you two guys. Incubator or broody hen?
Mandelyn Royal:Incubator, hands down.
Rip Stalvey:John?
John Gunterman:I trust an incubator as long as we don't lose power more than a broody hen, but a hen hatched and raised chick is always the preferred.
Rip Stalvey:I would agree with that. There's very few chickens in better condition than those raised by a broody hen. I don't know what it is, but I've seen it too many times. Just something to think about. Of course, with incubators, there's been so much. Written about those and covered about those and we've talked about it and we've done it extensively on Poultry Keepers 360 Live. I'm seeing folks showing more interest in broody hens now. I know incubators are getting expensive and all that.
John Gunterman:And broody hens don't lose electricity when Power lines come down during a blizzard or a hurricane
Mandelyn Royal:Or a tornado.
John Gunterman:Yeah. So the silkies, they got it. So everybody keeps the spare silky around just to brood with.
Mandelyn Royal:Orpingtons are pretty good.
John Gunterman:But it does concern me that a lot of people are Selecting for birds that aren't broody when they're breeding. And if we lose that natural broodiness we could be breeding ourselves into a corner.
Rip Stalvey:I think broodiness also ties into the whole sustainability concept.
John Gunterman:Yes. These birds should be able to reproduce without much intervention on our part, other than maybe segregating the males and females that we want the eggs from. But other than that, Let them do it.
Mandelyn Royal:I was thinking about testing out my broodies so that I could use them for turkeys because of how finicky baby turkeys are. And you have to teach them how to eat, where to drink and what to do, because if they don't have someone teaching them, they're not going to do it on their own. Like baby chicks will figure stuff out. The turkeys will just sit there and starve. But if a broody hen raises them, then she'll do all of that work for me. Which is appreciated. Plus, it's nice not to have to deal with the whole brooder setup and cleaning and all that. If you can just put chicks with a broody, that makes it easier on you if she's a good mom.
Rip Stalvey:Let's get into, I think before we get into too much on broodies, but let's talk about hatching eggs. Which do you prefer? Locally produced eggs? Your own eggs? Or what about If you feel like you need to bring in a trait, would you use hatching eggs? Have them shipped in?
Mandelyn Royal:Sometimes having the eggs shipped in is the only way to get what you're after if you can't find it locally. But my home produced eggs always hatch better because of the freshness and they didn't get scrambled in transit. There's a lot of risk and variables when you're doing the shipped egg route and there's a lot to consider all the way back into the diet that the parents were being fed and how strong and resilient that egg is to withstand some of the shipping trauma.
Rip Stalvey:Shipping eggs is not what it used to be. Any more eggs take a brutal beating when you have them shipped. I got eggs last year from Sue Dobson twice. And both times, the majority of them had detached air cells, which means you got to handle them differently, but we'll get into that in a little bit.
John Gunterman:Mandy shipped me eggs. And they were literally scrambled. One of the boxes was leaking when my letter carrier handed it to me.
Rip Stalvey:I've had that happen.
John Gunterman:And it, it's heartbreaking when, you're putting that much love and effort and expense into shipping these things cross country. I've reconciled with a 50%. Loss on shipped eggs over the years.
Mandelyn Royal:I put them in the pretty foam and everything.
John Gunterman:I think somebody took that box and threw it. That's the only way that damage could have happened. But yeah,
Mandelyn Royal:they're pretty smashed. That was frustrating.
John Gunterman:And they weren't labeled in any special way it wasn't it didn't grab anybody's attention. It's just the handling procedures. I've noticed back when we were doing pastured poultry at the college we'd noticed a very sharp decline in hatchability. The week that people started using the ATV to bring the eggs back to the warm room before hatching rather than hand carrying them. Went back to hand carrying the eggs the quarter mile back to the hatching room and fertility and hatchability was right back where it was supposed to be. So just that little amount of jostling and vibration across the field is enough to seriously affect your eggs.
Mandelyn Royal:Yeah, and I bet it is the vibrations because once they go into a mail sorting facility and they're on the conveyor belts How smooth is that ride even before they even get on a truck?
Rip Stalvey:As they come off that belt, a lot of times it's so automated, they just drop down into one of those.
John Gunterman:Yeah they're subject to a lot of abuse. The best eggs that I've ever gotten were from Jennifer Bryant from Bryant's Roost. She has some amazing foam and she double boxes everything. So she'll pack everything inside of an inner box in the foam. And then take all those little foam punch outs and put them inside of another box and then put that inside there. And sometimes even wrap it in bubble wrap. And I've had amazing results with that and that's the procedure that I'm adopting. In fact, I just ordered new foam inserts from her. So bryantsroost. com, she's got great quality inserts and she's sending me some new ones to test out that she's going over, which is a higher density foam that's supposed to protect the eggs even better, especially our heavy, large fowl eggs. That really helps cushion that impact when they are dropped.
Mandelyn Royal:And I'm going to start doing that too. I ordered in some 200 pound tests, double corrugated boxes. For the outer box, just brown. And then I ordered a roll of fragile stickers to put on all sides, and then I'm going to use the foam inserts with the postal service box that they're made for, so I can do a big box of two of those for 28 eggs. We're four boxes for 56 eggs. And I'm hoping that outer box is strong enough that it doesn't matter where it ends up on the truck. It's not going to get crushed.
Rip Stalvey:When I've gotten eggs that get damaged, invariably it's the corners of the box that get caved in more so than the tops or the sides. And once that corner goes, that's when they, you get really badly broken eggs.
Mandelyn Royal:There was one time I ordered a hundred quail eggs cause I was thinking only half would hatch. And it was actually a better than 90 percent hatch rate and I was not prepared for the number of quail that started popping.
John Gunterman:I've noticed that when ordering from Jennifer and from Thieving Otter Farm. I get amazing hatch rates. The quail people seem to have really dialed in their shipping procedures. But also their eggs are smaller and they're not as heavy, so I think they're able to cushion that sudden impact better in the foam when it's dropped off of a conveyor belt or a forklift.
Mandelyn Royal:Yeah, that makes sense. Egg size versus shipping resiliency.
Rip Stalvey:And they're shaped slightly different. A quail egg is Seems to be wider at the big end in proportion to the rest of the egg. And I think that I wonder
Mandelyn Royal:if you're able to get fresher eggs out too, because the number of quail they tend to have, because I know age of the egg matters a lot, especially if they're going to be in transit three, four, five days, that's more age added onto them, and then it's recommended to rest those eggs for 24 hours before you set them, so that's another day of age. So if the seller is collecting for five days. You're already past that 10 day mark, and that'll drop hatchability, depending on diet and all of that.
John Gunterman:Not to turn this into a quail show, but I know both of those vendors ship the day they're laid.
Mandelyn Royal:Yeah, that probably has a lot to do with it. Quail folks
Rip Stalvey:that listen to us.
John Gunterman:Yeah. And that's why I specifically use those two people. They've always just had amazing shipping quality and amazing hatchability in their eggs, but also having them held at the post office, not having it delivered to my doorstep makes a huge impact. We had two boxes ship same place, same day. One was held at the post office. I went to get it. By the time I got home, the other box had been delivered. They both went in the incubator side by side, one of them had 90 percent hatchability, the other had 40%. Care to guess which one was which?
Mandelyn Royal:The one you picked up at the post office? Was the better one?
John Gunterman:Oh, by far. It was that last, couple hour jostling around the delivery
Mandelyn Royal:truck. Subaru?
John Gunterman:I used the Subaru, in fact. Specifically. Cause my letter carrier drives a jeep, and I know how horrible that suspension is.
Mandelyn Royal:Yeah, all that jostling and vibration and potholes.
John Gunterman:Yeah, and when I go there and straight back home it's a 7 mile shot. When my letter carrier is bringing it, it's along the daily route, so she's already 30 miles into the route by the time it gets to me.
Mandelyn Royal:Now here's a question for you guys. If someone has not hatched eggs before, should they begin with shipped eggs? Or what are the best eggs to learn on to get the hatching process dialed in before you get spendy on shipped eggs?
Rip Stalvey:I think the best eggs to learn on are your own eggs because you've already eliminated the damage that can occur from being shipped.
John Gunterman:But you've opened the paradox. How do you get eggs before you have installated
Mandelyn Royal:eggs?
John Gunterman:That's why I recommend finding a local person.
Rip Stalvey:I was assuming they already had chickens, sorry. In that case, I would try to get eggs as close to me as possible.
Mandelyn Royal:Yeah, if not from your home flock, then someone nearby. Yeah.
John Gunterman:And that, is highlighting the importance of locally adapted stock and, getting to know the poultry people in your area, finding out what does well, sourcing your eggs from those people. And that, that's a good topic of discussion as well. How do you, Determine whether or not your potential breeder is a quality breeder or simply a multiplier.
Mandelyn Royal:Ooh, have I got a story.
John Gunterman:Go!
Mandelyn Royal:So back in the days of my flock experimentation and figuring out what my favorite breed was going to be, I made the rookie mistake of getting on eBay. And I was scrolling through and I found a seller that listed most of the breeds I wanted. And he was local. So I sent him a message and said, Hey, can I just come pick up an assortment of these eggs? And I think I was after some Spitzhaben and some kind of Creole, something or other, and, some oddity type of birds. Cause I was into the more rare stuff after trying everything more readily available. And he said, sure. Yeah, come on out. So he was about an hour away and I pull up to this Regular looking kind of suburban property. And I'm like, this is weird that he would have all these birds in this kind of area. This isn't like a farm. So I pull in the driveway and the attack poodle came out immediately. So he got the dog under control. And then he took me on a, on his walkabout cause it was feeding time for the birds. So he gave me the full tour. And What I saw made me start questioning what his intentions were, and then I looked at what he was feeding, and it was just scratch grains sunflower seeds and corn, for the most part, and he had all of these rows of wire cages attached to the garage, the back of the house, another outbuilding, they were covered in tarps, There was no bedding, piles and piles of poo underneath these wire cages that were jammed with birds. The birds were in terrible condition. What really got me, there was a coyote on a chain and I said, what's that about? And he said, it keeps the other coyotes away. Okay. And then we crossed a goat, a full sized goat and a little four by four kennel. With hay so thick that it's back was scraping the wire topper he had put on it. Like it was a bad situation and he's collecting eggs as we go. And I was I don't know that they're worth what you're asking. I'm not sure that I even want them. And so he offered them for a lot less money. And then on the way out, I was thinking, I was like, I wonder if the county knows about this guy, and what he's up to. So I called them, and they already had the address on file, they'd already been out. And they explain that because everything had food, water, and shelter, there's nothing they can do.
Rip Stalvey:That's a sad situation.
Mandelyn Royal:And nothing hatched. Nothing hatched. And surprise, scratch grains are not
John Gunterman:Yeah, there's no nutrition
Mandelyn Royal:But this guy was making a killing on eBay.
John Gunterman:Sure. I think one of the first alarms for me would have been, sure, come on out.
Mandelyn Royal:Just from a biosecurity angle.
John Gunterman:Yeah, when I get my eggs from my breeder, we meet at the post office, his local post office. His biosecurity is, you don't come on my farm, and I don't come on your farm. When he delivered chicks and eggs to me earlier this year, he stayed in the driveway. He wanted to, he could see my roosters. He could hear them and he was smiling and he wanted to come, we just understand bio security a reputable breeders gonna keep that first and foremost in their mind. But he also said, Hey, I'll be happy to send you all the pictures of my yard and my birds that you want to see. And that, seeing how they're living, seeing their conditions, it just, that's a good way to figure out. Also if somebody's sending you pictures of birds, does the background match were all these pictures taken in the same place? There there's a lot of scammers out there and that, that could be a whole nother topic. Topic for a show. But another thing that I like to ask potential breeders is what's your common flaw? And they'll usually go, ah, I've been chasing this crooked center toe for three years or, something.
Mandelyn Royal:They'll have an answer. Yeah.
John Gunterman:They'll have an answer because they're going to have that level of involvement with their birds.
Rip Stalvey:Let's talk about hatching issues. What are the two most common? Things that can have an impact on hatching baby chicks.
Mandelyn Royal:Fluctuating temperature and fluctuating humidity. And probably the most damaging is humidity being too high.
Rip Stalvey:Yes, I agree with that.
John Gunterman:Yes, not being able to break out of that inner membrane into air.
Mandelyn Royal:Or too much moisture left in the egg, and so when they go to pip, they actually drown
Rip Stalvey:I think humidity of the two is the most critical. Particularly where I live here in Florida, we have naturally high humidity. And so I have to be careful about going by the instruction manual for my incubators because invariably they want it higher I have to make sure the humidity in my incubator is lower than the outside humidity or I don't get any evaporation in my eggs at all.
Mandelyn Royal:And there's diagrams online that show how that air sac should change throughout incubation. So when you candle, you can gauge where they're at with moisture loss and compare it to those images. To see if you're on the right track and some people even when they're researching their ambient conditions and what settings work the best for them in their area at their altitude. I recently learned that altitude and the porosity of the egg will make a difference. And they'll actually draw a line on that air cell so they can see how it advances down the shell throughout incubation.
Rip Stalvey:That's what so many old timers did. They didn't have hygrometers. They went by the size of the air cell at different stages in the incubation.
John Gunterman:And you can also do it by weight. If you capture the weight at lay, and then at setting, and then at lockdown. Again, it takes a little bit more, but you're candling anyways or weighing. Either way is going to tell you if you're getting enough internal moisture loss. For the chicks to pip internally successfully or not.
Mandelyn Royal:And one thing to consider is how well insulated is the incubator you're planning to use, and how variable are your ambient conditions, because you can't have them positioned in sunlight, so you can't park it by a window. You have to watch the temperature fluctuations, especially if you're using variable heat too, if you have a wood stove, it's going to dry your air out more. And it's going to have hot and cold spots too, probably. And so you'll have to allow for that and make sure you have good enough insulation to protect against the ambient conditions of just where the incubators position.
John Gunterman:The incubators don't have a cooling function. So if the ambient temperature is too wrong I haven't seen one, at least not with my dollars.
Mandelyn Royal:I think Brensia makes one that'll cool.
Rip Stalvey:Hatching Time has one that does that, too.
John Gunterman:My Hatching Time does active periodic cooling, which is supposed to be great for some waterfowl eggs, but it just shuts off the heat. It doesn't actually have a refrigerator that comes on.
Mandelyn Royal:When I was hatching ducks, I would Cool them off and then mist them with a spray bottle once a day.
Rip Stalvey:And that makes a big difference on waterfowl.
Mandelyn Royal:Yeah, it does.
John Gunterman:And the Hatching Time Incubators have a program for that.
Mandelyn Royal:Oh. Just FYI.
John Gunterman:I don't do waterfowl because I have too much impact for natives here
Mandelyn Royal:I have my first batch of Muscovy eggs in and they hit the ground running on fertility. I was pretty excited about that. The first two eggs were duds, everything else is at 100 percent viability. So long as I get that humidity right, and of course I put'em in the cabinet. So they're with chicken, eggs and Turkey eggs and, We'll see.
John Gunterman:Those are the birds you picked up at nationals?
Mandelyn Royal:Yes.
John Gunterman:Okay, cool. Just wondering. And the boys
Mandelyn Royal:have really developed really well and I've grown partial to the younger male. For how balanced his shape is and how big he got and his temperament. And he's a cool bird and they now act like we're friends. It took probably four months, but now they treat me like I'm flock now.
John Gunterman:That's another great. Thing to consider if you're looking to source either birds or eggs is any of the poultry meats. Go and meet the people and look at the birds and, spot something you're like, I really like that. Approach that person.
Mandelyn Royal:Nine times out of ten, they're going to give you a better deal than anything you can find online because you really have to watch especially with some of the more popular breeds like Marans and Sarama and everything that, Has a pretty good following of people. Some people are price gouging and they don't even deserve what they're asking. But because there's demand, they get away with it. But then once you hatch the birds and you grow them out, the quality is just not there. Because they were a propagator and not necessarily a breeder.
John Gunterman:So putting quality eggs in is important. Quality in, quality out.
Rip Stalvey:Another thing that I like to ask when I'm considering getting eggs. How many different breeds and varieties do you raise?
John Gunterman:That's telling.
Rip Stalvey:Because typically the more they raise, the lower the quality of their birds, because it's hard to focus on a particular breed to improve things when you've got six or seven or eight different breeds running around in your yard. It never works out.
Mandelyn Royal:Some people have as many as 20 or 30 different varieties and they have just a small little group of each. They breed out of one pen for each variety. And it's really hard to make any progress, let alone if they sell off everything they're producing and not really be breeding for the sake of their future flock. They may have started with pretty good birds, but it takes about three generations to ruin what they used to be if you don't stay on top of that selection.
Rip Stalvey:And another thing I'll ask folks is, how long have you been breeding these birds? How long have you been working with them?
John Gunterman:And where did you source your stock from?
Mandelyn Royal:And what are you working on?
Rip Stalvey:And so many people, they'll buy eggs from Joe Blow and they pay a premium price for them and they hatch the chicks and they immediately think they can go out and start selling them for the same premium price and they don't know what to look for when breeding those birds. Invariably, the quality is not any better. That's what they started with and often it's not as good.
John Gunterman:I personally wouldn't be looking to acquire genetics from anybody who's had stock less than five years. Agreed. Unless they just got it from somebody who has had it for a long time.
Mandelyn Royal:Before they've had a chance to change much about them.
John Gunterman:Before they've had a chance to change anything. It's give me all your culls, because what's one person's cull may be a superstar down the road at a different farm as well.
Mandelyn Royal:Yeah, because all flocks are in various stages of development, and you just have to Find someone who's flock goals are aligned with your own if there's certain traits you want to see from your birds Then you definitely want to source them from someone that shares those same goals and is breeding for what you expect to get from the birds But then again depending on what your expectations actually are because I see a lot of chatter online Of people who order the hatching eggs because it's cheaper than getting the chicks or started stock or proven adult birds. They go that egg route for expense and then they get a little bit upset when they don't have that 100% hatch. You can't expect a hundred percent of'em to hatch. You're lucky to get 50%.
John Gunterman:Especially as a new chicken tender because. The incubation and the hatching and that first days and weeks are the most critical. And you're starting usually with somebody who has very limited experience with a$50 to$100 incubator that's going to drop several hundred dollars on your eggs. And then, have these disastrous results after they get shipped cross country.
Mandelyn Royal:Yeah, and they want to blame The source of it, which can be damaging to someone's reputation. And it wasn't even their fault with the problems that happen from fluctuating temperature, humidity running too high, trauma to the shipped eggs during transit. Because the U S postal service, they only guarantee delivery. Within alloted time, if they're damaged, but arrive on time, they won't cover it. And so there's a lot of risk to it. And you have to accept those risks and cross your fingers and do the best you can with them. This brings us to the close of another Poultry Keepers podcast, and we're very happy you chose to join us. Until next time, we'd appreciate it if you would drop us a note, letting us know your thoughts about our podcast. Please share our podcast with all of your friends that keep poultry, and we hope you'll join us again when we'll be talking poultry from feathers to function.