Episode 50: Fostering Resilience and Connection for Cancer Survivors with Dr. Kelly McLean

Feeling a sense of renewal and hope after surviving breast cancer isn't just a possibility—it's a journey I've embarked on with inspiring guests like Dr. Kelly McLean. As a surgical oncologist and former engineering student, Dr. McLean's unique perspective shines through in our heartfelt conversation about her transition into medicine and her unwavering commitment to improving the lives of breast cancer survivors. Her nonprofit, Move Beyond Surviving, stands as a beacon of support, offering outdoor activities to aid in healing and foster a sense of community among those who have faced this formidable foe.

This episode seamlessly weaves together the significance of holistic care with the power of nature's therapeutic embrace. Our conversation uncovers the profound psychological benefits of disconnecting from our technology-saturated lives and reconnecting with the earth and each other. Sharing personal stories of resilience and companionship, this discussion is a tribute to the indomitable spirit of survivors and the nurturing networks that sustain them. So, lace up your hiking boots and join us in exploring the paths to recovery and solidarity that lie just beyond the horizon.

Contact Dr. McLean:
513-460-8050

Kellymm68@hotmail.com. 

Move Beyond Surviving on Facebook

Move Beyond Surviving (Mind Body Spirit) Website 

Move Beyond Surviving on LinkedIn 

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I am not a doctor and not all information in this podcast comes from qualified healthcare providers, therefore may not constitute medical advice. For personalized medical advice, you should reach out to one of the qualified healthcare providers interviewed on this podcast and/or seek medical advice from your own providers .

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to Season 2 of Test those Breasts podcast. I am your host, jamie Vaughn. I am really excited to continue this journey and mission into 2024 to help shorten the overwhelming learning curve for those who are newly diagnosed, or yet to be diagnosed, with breast cancer. It has been such an honor and a privilege to be able to connect and interview many survivors, thrivers, caregivers, oncologists, surgeons, nurses, therapists, advocates and more, in order to provide much needed holistic guidance for our breast cancer community. Breast cancer has become such an epidemic, so the more empowered we are, the better. By listening, rating, reviewing and sharing this podcast, it truly does help bring in more listeners from all over the world. I appreciate your help in spreading this knowledge. My episodes are released weekly on Apple, spotify and other platforms. Now let's listen to this next episode of Test those Breasts.

Speaker 2: 1:10

Hey friends, welcome back to this episode of Test those Breasts. I am your host, jamie Vaughn, and I am so excited to have my guest, dr Kelly McLean, on my show. Kelly, dr McLean is a surgical oncologist specializing in breast cancer and melanoma. She is originally from Michigan, where she completed medical school at the University of Michigan and then came to Cincinnati, ohio, for her surgery residency. She returned to Cincinnati after completing her surgical oncology fellowship in Tampa, florida. She is the founder and board president of Move Beyond Surviving, a 501c3 nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering breast cancer survivors to rediscover themselves through outdoor activities.

Speaker 2: 1:59

And Dr McClain and I actually were connected to each other by Tom Tressler, who is the director. You said he was the executive director of the nonprofit. He was on LinkedIn and he reached out to me and I feel so lucky and fortunate that we got to have a conversation on the phone and he told me about the organization and then he told me about you. Dr McClain told me about the organization and then he told me about you, dr McClain, and one. There was a survivor named Carrie, who we will have her on the show at some point. But, dr McClain, thank you so much for joining us on this episode? How are you doing today?

Speaker 3: 2:37

Good Thank you. Thank you for having me giving us the opportunity to talk about Move Beyond Surviving.

Speaker 2: 2:43

You know I have a real soft spot, obviously, in my heart for breast cancer survivors and patients and I also have a soft spot in my heart for nonprofits like yours. Mine just became a nonprofit and I'm so inspired by you and your program. And we'll talk about your program in a little bit, but first I want to know if you can share with the audience who Kelly McLean is first and foremost, aside from your professional world.

Speaker 3: 3:11

Well, my professional world takes up a lot of time, but in my spare time the couple of things that I like to do is I do like to be outdoors. I like to do all sorts of outdoor activities. Like to be outdoors. I like to do all sorts of outdoor activities, water activities, particularly kayaking, is my favorite. I'm an avid tennis player. I picked up tennis when I was in my mid forties, so I've been playing for about 10 years. Played just a little bit as a kid, so it's been my distraction from work. I've also said that it teaches me a lot about myself because it's a metaphor for life. The only rules are over the net, between the lines, more times than your opponent, and so you have to be aware of yourself, aware of the opponent, and adjust to that. And then my other favorite interests are cats. I volunteer at the cat shelter. I have two cats myself. They've just been the joy of my life.

Speaker 2: 4:10

Love it. Yeah, so I already know that I like you because you're an animal person, so I am too. We have a couple of German shepherds and they just fill my heart, and so like you with cats. Thank you for sharing that. So we had an initial conversation a while back and you had mentioned that you were working on your engineering degree before you went to medical school. What made you change the direction of your career choice to become a surgical oncologist?

Speaker 3: 4:37

So the thing that I liked about chemical engineering was the problem solving aspect, that there were basic principles that you understand and then you adapt them to solve different problems and create solutions. What I didn't like was that there wasn't actually enough people interaction. That I felt like was always working by myself, working more on factories and inanimate things. So after I finished my undergraduate degree I took some time off and traveled and just kind of relaxed and allowed myself not to have a very definitive goal, like going from one intense thing to another, and what I found was, as I was exploring different areas, everything took me back to some type of medicine.

Speaker 3: 5:29

So after a break I went back and went to medical school and what I've liked about surgical oncology is, I feel, that it's the chemical engineering of the human body. So there are a few basic principles that we learn about cancer treatment and understanding different diseases, and then each person's values and the way their disease presents is different, and so you take those little building blocks and you adapt them to the individual person and presentation and so really I say that it's become like the chemical engineering of the human body. So I get the problem solving and the people interactions.

Speaker 2: 6:14

That's such an interesting way to look at it. I don't know if I mentioned, but I'm a former school teacher and I used a lot of analogies in my classroom because when I was a kid I didn't understand what I was learning in one classroom, how it connected to another subject in another classroom, and I feel like that's kind of what you're doing is. You know, you've got that idea of engineering and what you were doing and just being able to plug that into what you're doing now and I just find that really fascinating. So, first of all, you clearly have a lot of patients who have had breast cancer, so you've got a soft spot in your heart also for these people. I understand why you're doing what you're doing with your nonprofit, and we'll talk about that in just a second. But one of the topics that comes up a lot is this idea about holistic care. You just explained how you connect that engineering degree that you're working on with human beings. What about holistic care? What's your philosophy on that?

Speaker 3: 7:13

So when I work with people, I tell them it's my job to tell them what's medically sound, and then it's their job to tell me of that what works for them. So that's taking into account the whole person and what their values are and what's important to them. And then going a little bit further breast cancer is a disease and we can treat it, and we can treat it aggressively and we can declare someone cured or no evidence of disease, but that doesn't address the person and where the person's at afterwards, because the aggressive treatment can physically change people, it can emotionally change people, it can mentally change people, and so even if you've been successful with the disease, if that person's not able to go back to their life and function, then you haven't been successful. And so I think that's where the holistic aspect of it comes in, is the survivorship and getting people to a point where they're not just subsisting but they're actually living again and living a full life subsisting, but they're actually living again and living a full life.

Speaker 2: 8:31

I love that. I love that you recognize that and it's interesting because I've talked to a lot of people who did not feel like they got that care from their doctor and a lot of people who did get that care from their doctor. I'm kind of on a mission with several other people to help doctors and surgeons to understand that that holistic care is so important to help us navigate and important to have like a toolbox of if you recognize that your patient is really struggling with something, to be able to help direct them to go take care of that problem. And I love the fact that you have started a nonprofit that really can address those issues with cancer patients and I want you to share. It's called Move Beyond Surviving.

Speaker 2: 9:17

So when we think about breast cancer or any cancer for that matter, when we are deemed disease free, most people think and even the person who has the cancer oh good. Finally, I get to get back to normal. You know I get to get back to my normal life. Other people on the outside who just don't get it do not understand some of the things that we go through. I mean for me, I went through a lot of PTSD. There was a lot of emotional stuff that came along with that, and I'm very focused on helping people understand including myself, that we need to be able to move through those emotions to be able to have any kind of success in moving beyond surviving, right. So can you share with us what is the story behind the move beyond surviving?

Speaker 3: 10:07

Well, I think you hit on it in that it is a PTSD. So it's very similar to what we see in soldiers when you're going through treatment. It's intense, there's always something to do, it's like being in the middle of a war there's always an assault on you, something's changing, but it's concrete and there's a lot of just intensity. And then you get done with it and you're right, it's a relief because you're like finally I'm done and I can rest. But there can be this emptiness with it, because before you were surrounded by people that were like how are you doing and stuff? There was always something to do. And then you get done and you're left with your thoughts, your fears, the idea that it might be coming back, your changed body and that vulnerability. So when I took the time off between undergraduate and medical school, one of the things that I did was I went on some outward bound trips and worked on a ropes course and did a lot with experiential learning and really appreciated how the concept is. The way we do one thing is the way that you do everything. It's just one drilling down what that underlying theory is. And then sometimes you're so engrossed in your everyday life that you don't see it. So if you take yourself out of it and you put yourself in a challenging environment, you can then realize and pick out like how your thought process and how you do things. So I kind of took those experiences and tucked them in my back pocket and then, when I was going through med school and surgical oncology, saw how I thought that breast cancer survivors any cancer survivors really, but I specialize in breast would benefit from this.

Speaker 3: 12:02

In 2017, and then 2018, I reached out to North Carolina Outward Bound and partnered with them. The first time it was nine survivors and the second time it was six survivors. We did a five-day, four-night whitewater rafting, backpacking, rock climbing trip in the Pisgah National Forest outside of Asheville, north Carolina, and it was a huge success. People just came away from it transformed. We had different challenges that would address, like how someone works by themselves, how they work in a group, how they solicit help. You know different things.

Speaker 3: 12:45

And it's so simple because one of the beauties of it was actually just taking people out of their home environment and just putting them in peaceful nature where they could disconnect from the world and all the expectations and the pressures and then reconnect with themselves, just kind of rediscover where they were at and what they could do. And then we created a safe and supportive environment so that people could test out things. Because you know, like you have neuropathy and you might not be able to feel things or your feet might hurt and you might be concerned that you couldn't carry a backpack. But that's the expectation. Everyone knows you're going through it, people have been through some version of it and just allowed people to try things out. You fail or succeed or accomplish to whatever degree and try it again. So after those two trips, huge success. But I had two insights One, I was not going to be able to keep funding it myself and two, that as great as the five-day adventures were, they were intimidating and not accessible for everyone.

Speaker 3: 13:57

So, that's where the concept of creating the nonprofit that had half-day, day-long outings that would be more accessible for people, both from a lifestyle and a physical performance accessibility. And so, in June of 2022, we got our 501c3 status and officially became a nonprofit.

Speaker 2: 14:22

Do you remember what day it was?

Speaker 3: 14:27

profit. Do you remember what day it was? I don't remember what day, but I do remember because you were talking about. I do remember getting the mail and seeing the letter in the mail, yep.

Speaker 2: 14:35

So I had my retirement party, had a huge retirement party on the 4th of June and on the 11th of June I was told I had breast cancer at 2022, one week later. Yeah, so June of 2022 is very, very significant to me. So when something happened to me, you got your nonprofit, which is really cool. I love the fact that you do this, because when I got diagnosed and found out what I had to do and get whatever treatments I had I had to have the chemos and the medications every three weeks I told my husband. I said, look, I want to go camping on the third week of every single treatment that we have. I want to go to a different place so that I can get out into nature, because that's one of my favorite things to do.

Speaker 2: 15:25

Our favorite things to do is to go camping with our dogs, and so that's what we did. That was something that I got to look forward to, got the treatment, feel like crazy ick the first week, a little bit better the next week and then by the third week, I was feeling a lot more normal, if you will. And so we went out camping every single time and we went on little hikes and things like that. He was really good at getting me, you know, to go walking and things. So I'm very much into using nature to help us with our mental health and our PTSD. You know all of that stuff. So now your excursions. How do people get involved with this?

Speaker 3: 16:08

outdoor excursions. How do people get involved with this? Yeah, so we try and have one outing a month. So again, we're a year and a half old and we've started by well. So, first of all, we partner with Miami University's Outdoor Pursuit Center and this is key because, just like I partnered with North Carolina Outward Bound, we're not reinventing the wheel. We are not the technical experts. We work with people that this is what they do. So that's all part of creating that safe and supportive environment where we have people that know the safety aspect, know the wilderness, medicine, everything.

Speaker 3: 16:43

So we've started where we'll choose a date and an activity that's kind of appropriate for the season and we open it up and we announce it on our webpage and our Facebook page, and then there's a certain number of openings and people can sign up for them. There's always a wait list, so if someone backs out or can't go once they've signed up, then we contact the wait list. In general, the events are open to anyone of any stage, any age, as long as they're at a stable part in their treatment, and the events are free to any breast cancer survivor. We do ask for a $25 deposit, which is refundable as long as you attend the event, and it's just a way of getting people to have skin in the game, as opposed to just signing up and then not showing up or things that takes away from other people, fair enough. So right now, like I said, we have about one event a month and we've only had one event open at a time.

Speaker 3: 17:49

As we get more mature and get more funding and more outreach, we'd like to have more than one event open at a time so that people could go to our website and say, oh, I'm interested in doing that and those dates work for me, and so that they could sign up with a little bit more options. The other thing that we want to do is we try and create all of the events to address people at different levels of physical ability, so that people can participate to whatever degree they want and that there's like an out for them or they can go at their own pace, but definitely with wider age ranges and wider physical differences. Our goal is to have easier, different levels of events that may challenge people more or less. So that's our vision, but we're not there yet.

Speaker 2: 18:49

Yeah Well, just keep on climbing that hill, and that's a great goal and I feel like you probably think about this a lot and where you want to see it go because of the success it's had. How many people, would you say, have participated since the inception?

Speaker 3: 19:08

Yeah, so each event has anywhere from 10 to 20 people and we do get some overlap, but I would say that we're getting probably 50% new people and 50% alumni and, like I said, since we've been around for, let's say, 18 months, so I don't know let's say maybe 150. That's probably an overstatement, but probably 100 different people. Tom would definitely he'd know all those stats and he'd be like and we've had people come down from Michigan and Indiana and Columbus. We base things around Cincinnati and Oxford, which is where Miami University is, so everything is meant to be accessible from Cincinnati. But if you can get to the area, you don't have to be from the Cincinnati area. It's open to anyone, yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:07

I think that would be a really fun girls trip to do. Get all your girlfriends together who are in their survival mode and do something like this together. How fun, how fun. So your website. I assume that you have a calendar on thereking Hills on May 4th or 5th.

Speaker 3: 20:25

I forget which date. That's our next event. We're doing a couple of I can tell you.

Speaker 2: 20:38

Fourth is on a Saturday. I know that because that's Kentucky Derby Day, yeah it is and it's going to be the fourth be with you.

Speaker 3: 20:45

Yeah, it is. It's May 4th, it's that Saturday, perfect. How long are the hikes? So this one is going to be about five miles, with an option out at about three.

Speaker 2: 20:59

Okay, very cool. Do you use overnight backpacking at all?

Speaker 3: 21:04

We haven't. We have not gotten back to outward bound to do the longer trips, but we want to do weekend trips and we want to do that once we're more established.

Speaker 2: 21:15

Oh my gosh, I just know I would love that I'm a backpacker too. I'm not an avid backpacker, but I do have a really nice backpack. My husband and I, along with some friends, backpacked the whole Ruby Crest Trail. I don't know if you're familiar with the Ruby Mountains, but it was 37 miles of up and down these passes and oh, it was really really challenging and I know that those kinds of things are really good for people who are struggling, because it's just that challenge and being successful in making it happen. My husband and I actually really had to push each other to get from one place to the other the whole step of the whole way. We were out for about four days. I just remember feeling so good sore, but really good, especially mentally. When we finished we thought that that was such a great accomplishment, I guess, and it was really good for our marriage too.

Speaker 1: 22:13

I'm glad it was good. We just discovered things about each other.

Speaker 2: 22:17

You could make or break, but we did a really good job, and that was the last one I had been on, and that was in the summer of 2021. And then, of course, the next summer I was diagnosed with the cancer, and so we have a plan to go over Sonora Pass this summer with those same friends. So I'm actually kind of training to be able to do that again.

Speaker 3: 22:43

So one of the beauties of the long trips is it's so rare nowadays for us to be able to completely disconnect. I mean, phones were, like, always in contact, and so you know, four days without any kind of contact is amazing and it really does do a lot, for if you can bring yourself to do it, it really does do a lot for the soul.

Speaker 2: 23:09

It does. Yeah, we didn't have any service. I think at a couple of points we would check and we would see we might get a little message here and there, but to actually send something to someone or whatever. So we mainly used our phones for pictures. That's what we did. We took a lot of amazing pictures and you're right, I mean, we are also in the business of busyness and being on social media and it is so difficult for people to disconnect at times and to be able to do that and it drives people crazy sometimes, but I think that in the end it makes them feel better once they get over that initial. Oh my God, I want to get on social media or texting or whatever. Oh my God, I want to get on social media or texting or whatever. So I want to leave our audience with. What kind of advice would you give to? I always ask people well, I guess with you with survivorship what advice would you give to somebody a breast cancer survivor that is really, really struggling in their survivorship?

Speaker 3: 24:09

Yeah, I would say to reach out. Reach out to the program where you were treated, reach out to community resources, reach out to anyone that you know that might have gone through it, because one in eight women will get breast cancer. So there are a lot of people out there that have had breast cancer and gone through this. And while, again, everyone's experience is their own, there are a lot of similarities and you're not alone. And you'd be amazed, at once you start talking to people, how similar and how common these feelings are. Some people say, oh, I don't like peer support groups, I don't want to sit around and talk about things, but it's amazing, one-on-one or just when you start talking to people, you realize what you're going through and you realize that it's not unusual.

Speaker 2: 25:05

I love that you just said that, because that is one of my main missions and that's one huge piece of advice I give to people is, when they're even diagnosed is to plug yourself in to the community. I had a friend of mine when I was first diagnosed. They told me that this was the sisterhood of all sisterhoods, and she was so right. I'm very open with my feelings. I am very open. I don't sugarcoat anything and I want people to know. I want people to be aware, especially for people, too, who've never even been diagnosed, because I feel like if we are more armed with knowledge knowing that there's one in eight women, right If we are more armed with knowledge before we ever even get diagnosed God forbid if you do, you'll know so much more and you will have the resources that you need when you hear those words and being able to reach out to community at any given level of where you are in your cancer journey and in your survivorship as well.

Speaker 2: 26:04

It is amazing how many people I've talked to who said I never talked to anybody about it and I don't know whether that is because how they were raised. I know that in modern day we talk about things. I'm fine with telling people I still go to therapy. I mean, there's so many people who are so open about that. But I know that in other generations these things were very, very hush, hush and people didn't talk about it. We didn't know that Aunt Sally even had breast cancer, or you know. But now the generation, now people like me, people like you, we talk about these things.

Speaker 2: 26:40

Being a doctor that deals with breast cancer patients, you hear stories all the time, so we know that these resources are out there and I just really appreciate the fact that you have such a caring heart, that you had this idea that has come to fruition and obviously there's more that you want to do with it, kind of like with me and my nonprofit. I've got such big ideas and I lay awake at night going, oh my God, I need to do this, I need to do that, but I just think it's great that there are programs out there for people in their survivorship.

Speaker 3: 27:19

So thank you for that. Yeah, is there anything you would like to leave us with? No, I mean, I think we covered a lot of the key points of it, and it's just such a shame. It affects so many people that we just need. It affects people in their prime of their lives, it affects people at all different ages, and so we just can't afford to not have so many people not functioning or not being their best, because there's so much that they can give and bring and still live. And I think it's fabulous that we've gotten to this point where people are living and surviving, so that's a win, and now we just have to help people be able to live and not just subsist.

Speaker 2: 28:04

Yeah, and I think with that whole message out, there is early detection, early detection, early detection.

Speaker 2: 28:09

Yeah exactly Get your mammograms, get your ultrasounds, whatever you need to do to take care of your breast health. Because I know I was stage two so and I've always taken care of my breast health. So I was shocked that it was even stage two because not even a year prior I had gotten my mammogram with ultrasound and they did not detect anything. By the time I got the next one, it was five centimeters. And so I just always tell people listen to your body, listen to your intuition and make sure that when and if you do get it, it is early. And you're right, people are surviving, but it's not easy. It is by far from easy, regardless of what stage you're at zero, one, two, whatever it's still doable and people are living and to tell the story and to be able to bring education and awareness to the other breast cancer patients who come along. So thank you very much.

Speaker 2: 29:08

In our show notes I have your contact information. I have your email, your Facebook, your website, your LinkedIn. I just really encourage people to look at your website and to see what is possible for them. I mean, taking a little trip would be really great and I think that it would be good for your mental health and things like that. So, dr McLean, thank you so much. I really appreciate your being on this show and to my audience. I appreciate your joining again, and if you're loving this show, please rate it and leave a review. It truly does help when people go to the platform that they listen to podcasts on to see what they can expect, and so I leave you with thank you for joining us again and we will see you next time on the next episode of Test those Breasts. Bye for now.

Speaker 1: 29:59

Friends, thank you so much for listening to this episode of Test those Breasts. I hope you got some great much needed information that will help you with your journey. As always, I am open to guests to add value to my show, and I'm also open to being a guest on other podcasts where I can add value. So please reach out if you'd like to collaborate. My contact information is in the show notes and, as a reminder, rating, reviewing and sharing this podcast will truly help build a bigger audience all over the world. I thank you for your efforts. I look forward to sharing my next episode of Test those Breasts.