Episode 62: Confronting Breast Cancer from Both Sides: Dr. Liz O’Riordan's Dual Journey as Surgeon & Survivor

Imagine being a top breast surgeon, only to find yourself on the receiving end of a breast cancer diagnosis. Welcome to the eye-opening journey of Dr. Liz O'Riordan   In this episode, we explore the irony and emotional upheavals she faced as both a medical professional and a patient. Dr. Liz opens up about how her extensive medical background both helped and complicated her treatment experience. Together, we unpack the profound impacts on her relationships, mental health, and sense of identity, providing solace and insight for anyone navigating a similar path.

Turning complex medical jargon into relatable analogies, we demystify breast cancer. I share how my own brush with breast cancer reshaped my understanding, particularly addressing the misconception that stress and trauma directly caused my cancer. Listen in as we tackle the often-overlooked aspects of cancer care, emphasizing the crucial role of empathy and effective communication. Dr. Liz highlights the necessity for comprehensive support from healthcare providers, touching upon the significant but frequently ignored mental health and quality of life issues.

Lastly, we navigate the murky waters of cancer treatment misinformation, offering guidance on discerning reliable information amidst the chaos. From debunking myths about deodorants and soy to clarifying the complexities of hormone replacement therapy, we aim to set the record straight. The conversation takes an intimate turn as we discuss the impact of breast cancer and menopause on sexual health, providing practical advice to improve quality of life. 
Dr. Liz O'Riordan on Instagram

Dr. Dr. Liz O’Riordan on YouTube

Dr. Liz O'Riordan on Twitter (X)

Dr. Liz O'Riordan's Website 

 So Now I've Got Breast Cancer Podcast by Dr. Liz O'Riordan 

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I am not a doctor and not all information in this podcast comes from qualified healthcare providers, therefore may not constitute medical advice. For personalized medical advice, you should reach out to one of the qualified healthcare providers interviewed on this podcast and/or seek medical advice from your own providers .

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello friends, welcome back to the Test those Breasts podcast. I am your host, jamie Vaughn. I'm a retired teacher of 20 years and a breast cancer thriver turned staunch, unapologetic, loud supporter and advocate for others, bringing education and awareness through a myriad of medical experts, therapists, caregivers and other survivors. A breast cancer diagnosis is incredibly overwhelming, with the mounds of information out there, and other survivors A breast cancer diagnosis is incredibly overwhelming, with the mounds of information out there, especially on Dr Google. I get it. I'm not a doctor and I know how important it is to uncover accurate information, which is my ongoing mission through my nonprofit. The podcast includes personal stories and opinions from breast cancer survivors and professional physicians, providing the most up-to-date information. At the time of recording Evidence, research and practices are always changing, so please check the date of the recording and always refer to your medical professionals for the most up-to-date information. I hope you find this podcast a source of inspiration and support from my guests. Their contact information is in the show notes, so please feel free to reach out to them. We have an enormous breast cancer community ready to support you in so many ways.

Speaker 1: 1:16

Now let's listen to the next episode of Test those Breasts. Well, hey, friends, welcome back to this episode of Test those Breasts. I am your host, jamie Vaughn, and today I am extra honored to have Dr Liz O'Riordan on my show. Some of you may have seen her on social media on other podcasts. She is a wealth of knowledge, which is why I asked her to interview with me on my podcast. So Dr Ariridan is a breast cancer expert who worked as a breast surgeon before receiving a diagnosis herself. She's now an accredited, trusted information creator, podcast host and author. She's the host of the podcast. So Now I've Got Breast Cancer and the author to the Complete Guide to Breast Cancer and her 2023 memoir Under the Knife. Well, hello, dr Ariyaruddin. Should I call you Dr Liz? What do I call?

Speaker 2: 2:11

you Just call me Liz. Call me Liz, All right.

Speaker 1: 2:13

Liz. All right, liz, well, welcome to the show. How are you? I'm good today. I can't wait to chat Well, good, well, I just want to let you know that I have been watching you and listening to you for quite some time.

Speaker 1: 2:26

I'm in this space where I'm almost two years out from my own breast cancer diagnosis and most of my audience knows that I retired from the school district. I was super excited to get into that retirement and join my husband in retirement and one week after my retirement party I found out I had breast cancer. I'm like, okay, I guess this is where we're going this year. And so I realized that there were a lot of things I did not know when I got breast cancer, and I have to say that I sort of fancied myself as somebody who knew a lot about breast cancer. I knew people who had it.

Speaker 1: 3:02

I had always taken care of my breast health. I always tried to be really healthy and I was healthy at that time and I realized there was a lot that I didn't know. So when I went through all of the treatments the chemo, the mastectomy, reconstruction, all the things and I became disease free, I realized, oh my God, I'm in my first year of retirement, which is a struggle for a lot of people. Anyway, I realized, well, I don't have any significance. I was just super depressed. I didn't have significance like I did before I retired, I didn't have a purpose. And so your story has really resonated with me because I know that you went through quite a lot. So I want to start off with asking you who Liz O'Riordan was before breast cancer. I think it's just such a deep question for people.

Speaker 2: 3:52

I define myself as a breast surgeon. I was 40. I spent 20 years of my life training. I had a PhD. I've married a surgeon. Surgery was my life and it took 20 years to train. So you don't have many hobbies or friends, it's just all work, work, work. That was who I was, and then the next day I wasn't. I was a patient with the one disease I spent my life training to cure. It's just so ironic.

Speaker 2: 4:18

Yeah, it is very ironic I think most patients are drip fed information. You have a scan, you get the results. You have a biopsy you get results. You have surgery, you get the results. But for me my mammogram was normal. But when I saw my ultrasound scan I knew it was cancer. I knew I'd need chemo. I had a good idea what my odds of being alive in 10 years were. I had all this knowledge that you never want to have and I had to decide. Do I tell my husband that I might be dead in 10 years? He doesn't need to know that. And it was really, really hard.

Speaker 1: 4:47

Looking back, do you find it helpful to know all of that stuff, or would you rather have not?

Speaker 2: 4:53

known. I think a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and a lot of knowledge is even worse and I think I was in denial part of me still in denial that it's come back twice. I've looked after women who've died of breast cancer. I've seen the worst of this disease and I couldn't stop imagining myself in those women's shoes. But there's also that as a surgeon, I like to be in control. I do this to people People don't do things to me and to let go and let things be done to me and go through treatment with no knowledge at all. I don't know how bad chemo is going to make me feel, how bad is the menopause going to be. I hated not knowing and I had no idea the impact of breast cancer on every aspect of your life sexual, emotional, physical, mental, spiritual, everything, infertility, grief, you name it. I had no idea and it was this huge eye opening of just wow, it's not all about pretty scars.

Speaker 1: 5:49

That must have been just crazy to wrap your mind around. I always thought to myself okay, I always had in the back of my mind okay, someday I could get breast cancer. Because I know that one doctor said to one of my friends it's not a matter of if you're going to get it, it's a matter of when you're going to get it. So that always stuck in my mind and so I always thought, okay, well, I could probably get breast cancer someday. I've had two lumpectomies that were benign, but then there was always that little thing in the back of my mind that breast cancer is what happens to other people.

Speaker 2: 6:19

Yeah, you know it wasn't going to happen to me. I was 40. I treated the disease. I was young, I was fit, I was a triathlete. It wasn't going to happen. I mean, like many women listening and men, I never checked myself. I never looked at my poo or my pee. I never looked at my vulva in the mirror. I'm invincible.

Speaker 1: 6:41

And then you're not, and then your purpose is stripped away to a chemo chair. Now, when this happened, did you blame yourself? Did you wonder what you may have done?

Speaker 2: 6:48

No, I didn't at the time. I know most breast cancer is bad luck. We know that drinking too much, not exercising and eating too much and being overweight can increase the risk, but they have a very slight impact. It's like they may cause two or three mutations, but it's bad luck or chance that make the rest happen. And it is still a disease of older women and it is mainly older women who die.

Speaker 2: 7:08

I just thought why me? You know what have I done wrong? And then you read the stories and I thought well, I drank like a fish at medical school and I never went to the gym because I was doing 200 hour weeks. Is it my fault? But I know it's not my fault. I know it's bad luck and I hate there are so many people out there now who believe functional medicine, saying it's your fault. You didn't deal with your negative trauma or your emotions, or it's plastics or pollutions, it's BS. No one can tell you why you got breast cancer. Even women with the BRCA gene Angelina Jolie has Not every woman with that gene gets breast cancer. There's still an element of chance that does the final step and I don't want anyone to guilt themselves. You know there are thin, teetotal triathletes who get breast cancer, and there are people who are overweight and smoke and live a long and healthy life.

Speaker 1: 7:52

It's just really bad luck. Yeah, I guess so, because when I came out with it, I'm very open like you. That's why I just like you, because you just say it all and unapologetically.

Speaker 2: 8:01

Sometimes too much. My mom would say I share too much.

Speaker 1: 8:04

But you know, it's like the opinions out there whatever, you know, we all have opinions right but I really resonate with you because you are so open and I think that there are more people who are open than not, and it's very evident on your social media platform and your podcast and all the things right. Well, when I got breast cancer, I came out with it on social media and it's amazing how many comments I got, one being but Jamie, you were so healthy, and it really confused me because I was really healthy and it occurred to me over time that, because I felt bad, it's like what did I do to myself? Oh my God, did I eat something wrong? Did I eat soy? Did I, you know? And so I want to talk to you about these myths too.

Speaker 1: 8:48

But I was really confused because I was incredibly healthy. I had literally just lost like 33 pounds in the last two years. Prior to that really was in great shape. I was backpacking and over the Ruby mountains, you know, and I mean I was in solid shape. So I would love for you to let me know, and our audience know, what your diagnosis was, what your treatments were like, what was all that?

Speaker 2: 9:13

Okay, but first of all I'm going to come to you being healthy. I explain breast cancer to children a bit like this Imagine the word chocolate. You like chocolate and there's a spelling mistake. It's like a Scrabble game. Every single one of those letters needs to be changed with something else until you get a cancer. So this cell is. The word is unrecognizable, it's a rogue word. Maybe you drink a bit and the C of chocolate becomes an S, so it's chocolate. You can still read it. And then maybe you don't do any exercise and the T may become a D. Those things may be. You may have caused those two mutations, but the other eight, or however many there are, are just chance. Fit people get cancer. It's spelling mistakes that happen when cells divide. That's all it is. You can't control it.

Speaker 2: 9:54

So I was 40. I'd had two cysts before and I just noticed one day a lump in my cleavage and I just thought it's another cyst. It was small and round. Mammogram was normal. I had very dense breasts and I had an ultrasound. And when they did the ultrasound I saw a two and a half centimeter cancer. I knew it was mixed, ductal and lobular, el positive, her2 negative. I then had an MRI because it was mixed ductal and lobular and my mammogram didn't see it and that showed five and a half centimeter cancer. My lymph nodes were clear Because it was big and I was young and it was mixed. I had chemotherapy. First I had docetaxel and FEC. It completely disappeared. My MRI after chemo was completely normal. But because I've got small breasts, I wanted to have a mastectomy and I had an implant reconstruction and my post-surgery results showed there were actually 13 centimeters of lobular cancer left in my breast and three of my lymph nodes were positive. I had one of those very rare occult lobular cancers not seen on any scans. So that meant radiotherapy, it meant tamoxifen, it meant having Zolidex to switch my ovaries off and that was tough because I knew that's a huge cancer. I knew what my odds were of being alive.

Speaker 2: 11:00

In five years I'd had a lot of scar tissue from the implant. I had radiotherapy to the armpit and I was planning to have my implant removed because it was painful and I'd had a nodule of scar tissue just underneath my axillary, my armpit scar, and that turned out to be a two and a half centimeter recurrence on the muscles of my chest wall. And that was two and a half years after finishing treatment back in 2018, lobular ER positive. So I had surgery.

Speaker 2: 11:24

I had proton radiotherapy, I had my ovaries removed and I was put on letrozole that gave me carpal tunnel syndromes. I was then put on anastrozole and then last year, the day before my memoir was due to be released, I'd been cycling in the Italian mountains and I saw a little red ulcer above my mastectomy scar and I knew that's a local recurrence. So again, lobular centimeter, centimeter and a half ER positive. So I had surgery last year to remove it and I'm now on treatment for life a CDK inhibitor called palpacyclin. It's like a mild dose of chemo and I have bum injections every month as another form of blocking my estrogen and I'm on that for life to hopefully stop another recurrence.

Speaker 1: 12:02

Yeah, I saw you getting your shot the other day on Instagram.

Speaker 2: 12:05

I was like, okay, I was so scared, it's a huge needle and it's my bum and is it going to hurt? I was just really. Plus, I have it in the room. It's a hundred yards away from where my mom died with cancer 80 months ago, so it was really traumatic. But I thought if I can take a video of me getting it, then maybe someone will see it and just feel a little bit less scared and a little bit less nervous.

Speaker 1: 12:25

Yeah, well, I love that you put it out there, so was it painful?

Speaker 2: 12:29

It's sore when the needle goes in for about a second. It's like a painful niggly Bernie kind of sensation. Some months it doesn't hurt at all. Sometimes it's sore and then it's really sore for the next one or two days, just as your bum muscle absorbs the drugs.

Speaker 1: 12:41

So I'm really sorry to hear about your mom. I also lost my mom in October of 2019. It really threw me for a loop and this is something I want to ask you, because I've always been of the thought that stress and trauma so my mom dies, right. Three months later, my dad has gets this girlfriend and that caused some friction between us, but then we ended up really liking her and all the things. But then my husband's father died Christmas morning, 2020, in the hospital. He had gotten COVID, then his biological father, and then, of course, all the pandemic is going on, right. And then, and then one of my best friends dumped me during the pandemic and it was something to do with politics. And then, october of 2021, my husband lost his biological father. So a lot of stress and trauma, right. And so I get cancer. June of 2022. I've always been of the thought that stress and trauma may have caused my cancer, but it turns out that might be a myth, right?

Speaker 2: 13:40

Yeah, it's a myth. So there's actually a chapter on toxic thoughts and stress in my next book out next year all about myth busting Toxic thoughts and not dealing with your emotions do not cause cancer. Your brain cannot influence the mutations that happen in cancer cells. We know that. However, when people are stressed they are generally less healthy and they are more likely to eat processed food and junk food because they don't have the energy to cook. They are more likely to stop exercising, to drink more, to sleep less. We develop unhealthy lifestyle patterns when we're stressed and we know those unhealthy lifestyle patterns can increase the risk of cancer. It's not the stress itself and a lot of people go through stressful situations and don't get cancer. It is probably still bad luck. And you said you were really fit and healthy despite all those traumas. You were hiking mountains. So there's no proof that stress causes cancer. We know that some people who have unhealthy lifestyle habits have a greater risk of getting cancer, but that's a small increase and many of those don't. No proof.

Speaker 1: 14:37

No proof. During the pandemic 2020, all of 2020, really I was really unhealthy. My husband and I kind of was like yep, we're on shutdown and we were drinking and eating and but I was exercising. So I was like, oh my God, did I do this to myself?

Speaker 2: 14:52

And I like you.

Speaker 1: 14:54

I've been a partier quite a bit of my life, so I did drink a lot. I don't drink very much anymore. I didn't drink at all. I drank very, very little before cancer, like the couple of years before, because I was on a health kick and wanted to lose weight and I know that alcohol really is not great for you. So and I didn't drink at all during cancer and I rarely drink now. It's like every so often I will. But so I've learned a lot about that. Okay, so now that you've had breast cancer, how has that changed your view about how you treated your patients?

Speaker 2: 15:30

Oh, I get asked this a lot and often people say did it make you a better doctor? And I get really cross because I was a pretty good doctor beforehand. I think it made me realize it's all about communication and we get trained to break bad news and I can do it 10 times a day and it is soul destroying. But when you are receiving that diagnosis you realize you will remember every single detail of that conversation for the rest of your life what they're wearing, the time of day, how you drove there, everything. And I often wanted to reassure women and say you know, it's just a small cancer, it's lucky it hasn't spread, because I've seen the worst. And say you know, it's just a small cancer, it's lucky it hasn't spread, because I've seen the worst. But no one's lucky to get cancer. No, cancer is good to have.

Speaker 2: 16:09

And before I see a patient we have meetings I think in the States are called tumor boards where you discuss all the cases. You have the plan, what the treatment should be. It's all above board. I go in knowing what I'm going to tell the patient, but for most women it's completely out of the blue.

Speaker 2: 16:21

And I learned because I went back for about six months between my first two diagnoses, just to be quiet for the most uncomfortable five seconds of my life and let that news sink in, because then the first question someone asks me can direct the rest of their treatment.

Speaker 2: 16:36

It could be, but who's going to look after my horse? Or I'm a carer for my disabled dad, or will I lose my hair? And that first thing that they need to get off their chest can help me counsel them. But if I just go, it's cancer. You need this, this, this, this. You kind of quieten down and you don't ask those little questions. But it also made me realize it's maybe not my job, because I only get 10 minutes to see people, but we need to talk to patients about the side effects of all the drugs and how to get their sex life back and what to eat and the importance of exercise and the mental health you can get, and actually make sure that they are getting advice to survive and actually live a good quality life. And I had no idea. I assumed other people were taking care of it and that's not always the case.

Speaker 1: 17:16

Okay, I'm really glad that you brought that up, because I'm really involved in our cancer community here in Reno, you know, and I really tried to learn a lot from the cancer community at large. One of the biggest topics that we talk about are what certain doctors oncologists, radiologists, surgeons don't really know and how we can get them in the information to be able to help the patient. So, like if they're sitting in your office and they're complaining about their sex life or something like that, it's like you know whatever. Yeah, it's not necessarily true that the doctor has to be able to counsel that person about their sex life, but having the tools to be able to say you know what, I can see that you're really struggling and I can empathize with you. I have a really great therapist that you might want to call who can help you through these situations, for you and your husband or you and your wife.

Speaker 2: 18:11

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:12

You and your partner. It sounds to me like you were very, very empathetic before breast cancer with your patients, and so you were a really fantastic doctor and breast surgeon and you are. You know, I mean, it's who you are right. Now that you've been there, you even have more tools to be able to help people through this you even have more tools to be able to help people through this.

Speaker 2: 18:39

So when I was training just to do a breast surgeon, I had no lectures in how to treat the symptoms of the menopause. I had never heard a colleague talk about sex when I was doing my training. I never mentioned it. We don't get training in this. We just get trained in how to be a radiotherapy oncologist or be a breast surgeon. We don't have any experience in that.

Speaker 2: 18:51

You assume that the breast care nurses, the speciality nurses, the primary care physicians, are dealing with it because we've got so busy trying to hang on to all the trials in our heads and the latest drugs coming out of ASCO, it's really hard to do everything else and I think we need to be aware that side effects, collateral damage, happen and we need to be able to tell patients it is normal to lose your libido and to get vaginal dryness, and these are to ask patients and then have the resources to help them.

Speaker 2: 19:17

And I think we need to digitally signpost patients to the good apps, websites, forums, books, influencers where they can get the information they need, and I think that will be the change in the future, using all the information on social media and the internet for good, to give them safe resources, because we may not have the time to do it. I may not be the person you want to talk to about sex or intimacy or the symptoms of the menopause, but it's making sure that somebody in that team has that knowledge and you can direct them to them.

Speaker 1: 19:43

Right, because usually when you walk into the doctor's office for me, I was given a big stack of stuff and I'm like I don't even think I ever even looked.

Speaker 2: 19:54

I didn't read it. I may have found it online to send to my mom to explain, because when you go home you've got to be the doctor and tell your mom what the doctor said and I knew because it's my job. But a lot of people are like I zoned out when they said I had cancer. I have no idea what's happening. Yeah, so I think it's sharing sensible resources that can help people navigate their way through, because not everybody wants information at the same time. You may not want to know that you're legally disabled or how you get money or about sex for another year down the line, whereas other people want to know what the symptoms of recurrence should. I do my will. We're all different right.

Speaker 1: 20:24

Yeah, I didn't read through any of that stuff. I think that kind of spoon feeding it to people as they go along, I think might be a way better idea. I want to get into what we call Dr Google. Yes, when I, when I was first diagnosed, I had a really good friend of mine who had breast cancer and she really counseled me through. I was like in the deep dark throes of freaked outness at the time it was before I started chemo and all of that and she said I'm going to give you one big piece of advice Don't Google shit. Don't Google it, just don't. And I'm like okay. And then, of course, we started because she says you can go down a rabbit hole Also.

Speaker 1: 21:03

There are support systems, support groups out there, like on Facebook and things like that. She says I got into some of them and then I backed right back out because it just brought so much fear and anxiety to me. And then we started talking about that. She had just gotten nipple and areola tattoos in Arizona and she was so enamored with what a game changer it was and she goes I take that back, google that, because that's really cool stuff. I did listen to her. I did not Google too much, or really at all.

Speaker 2: 21:35

I tried to find the information from people that I knew were incredibly knowledgeable, so how did you know the people you were getting information from were incredibly knowledgeable and how did you know you could trust them?

Speaker 1: 21:49

Well, for one, my radiologist is a really good friend of ours and ironically he was at my retirement party one week prior to my diagnosis, or just a few days prior to my actual mammogram, and he is very knowledgeable when it comes to obviously reading the results and things like that. He's the one that ultimately gave me my diagnosis one week after my retirement party. So I really stuck to listening to him. He's been a breast radiologist for many, many years and he really was able to get me through. I did listen to my surgeon here because she sits on the board with all kinds of doctors. She's one of the top surgeons. I didn't end up getting my mastectomy and reconstruction here in Reno from her or Dr Janiga, who was going to do my reconstruction, because I didn't end up getting my mastectomy and reconstruction here in Reno from her or Dr Janiga, who was going to do my reconstruction, because I didn't want to go down the implant road. So I ended up getting the deep flap surgery in New Orleans at the Center for Restorative Breast Surgery. But I did listen to my breast surgeon because she was very knowledgeable about nutrition. She was just very knowledgeable about a lot of things. So I listened to her.

Speaker 1: 22:54

So I'm a teacher right, I'm a social studies teacher and I'm really good at picking apart what is bullshit and what's not. I've always been able to do that and I'm also really good at realizing that possibly what I had heard like, for example, I want to talk to you a little bit about soy, because you probably know a lot about this idea of hey, we shouldn't eat soy and things like that, and I don't know what your thoughts are on it. So I would love to hear the media is so good at throwing out oh, we shouldn't eat bananas, we should meet this. Oh, that's okay, it's okay now to eat bananas. Oh, it's okay, you know, and so I'm always really good at listening to those kinds of things. I'm still learning, liz. I'm obviously still learning.

Speaker 1: 23:42

There are things that I heard from people that now I'm like, okay, wait, so I'm cautious about what I hear. And when I start hearing the science I believe in science and when I start hearing the science and I start hearing experts like you, I start kind of piecing it together. So I guess I just am cautious about what I hear and I kind of move forward with that, you know.

Speaker 2: 24:08

I think you shouldn't get your medical advice from the Internet. You shouldn't get your medical advice from the internet. And anyone who's telling you that they can cure cancer, who is making money from you, who is selling you a supplement or a course or a webinar, you've got to take with a pinch of salt, because doctors don't do that. We don't sell you extra stuff, we just give you the treatment that you need.

Speaker 2: 24:29

And the science and evidence is really interesting because I'm doing a lot of research into alternative cancer therapies and the science that they quote is often studies done on six mice or cell in a lab and you can cherry pick a really bad study that says what you want, without ignoring the 20 other studies that say it doesn't. And that's why, if you hit any claim say, soy or deodorants cause breast cancer you go to major cancer websites like the American Cancer Association, cruk in the UK, your health doctors. What do they say? You've got to find two or three other independent resources that all agree and then you know it's true, but the chances are you weren't, because it's BS and people are doing it to make money.

Speaker 2: 25:28

Yeah, you just have to corroborate, right. I mean, I yeah, when I was teaching my kids, when Testimonials have the power to make us spend hundreds of thousands of pounds but they're not evidence, they're not science. A lot of them are made up, they're not real, but a glowing testimonial has the power to make you get out your credit card and it's like you have no idea. If that person actually had cancer, did they actually have the treatment? Are they still alive? And that's the problem. You know, a celebrity endorses product. Oh, I must have it. It must be true, and you believe that more than the science, and I think that's why social media can be very, very deceiving.

Speaker 1: 26:02

Right, and you mentioned something really important when you are looking at programs that are costing a lot of money. So for me, from the very beginning, I don't make money off of breast cancer patients or anybody. I am a nonprofit. If people want to donate, which I need, hello. I need some funding. I do my podcast. It's all self-funded on my very robust retirement fund and same here.

Speaker 2: 26:29

My podcast is funded by my pension. You're providing information. What I'm saying is these foreign clinics that are selling you the things that doctors don't know, the big pharma's keeping from you. It's natural, it's a miracle cure, it's all BS. Anyone who is selling you a product to help you treat cancer, you've got to be suspicious.

Speaker 1: 26:48

Okay, that is such a powerful message. I'm so glad that you've said that, because I've always had that thought process, but it is easy to get sucked in and listen.

Speaker 2: 26:58

I get. So this is going to sound crazy. When someone asks me is it true that deodorants cause cancer, part of me gets. What part of your and I don't want to insult anybody listening but what part of your common sense makes you think that a deodorant can cause cancer and why are you coming to me to explain it? Why can't you see that for yourself? Because it's like cigarettes, we know, cause lung cancer. You have to get them from behind the counter with an ID and they've got a big health warning on saying they cause cancer. Alcohol should have the same. A three-year-old can buy a deodorant. They are completely safe. But you get absorbed by a video on TikTok and suddenly, oh my God, blue is black and white is gray and it's it's hard to counteract the myths.

Speaker 1: 27:36

I'm older than you are, so I don't know what your thought process when, when the whole soy scare came out, what was your thought about that? Like I stopped, I stopped drinking soy. You know, I stopped any soy products just because and I was a lot younger then, but it didn't go.

Speaker 2: 27:53

Much Dairy causes breast cancer. The whole China study. Soy as a food product is completely safe, whether that's tofu beans or tempeh or edamame beans. Soy as a food product is completely safe. Soy supplements, on the other hand, no, any supplement. And this is because supplements aren't regulated by law. They do not have to contain what they say they do. You get a gram of acetaminophen, it's always going to have that in it because it's a medicine. But supplements aren't medicines, they are foods. A third of the supplements sold on Amazon do not contain what they're meant to. They could have 10% or 120% of the active ingredient and you don't know what they're mixed with to turn them into capsules or gels or gummies. If you have a healthy diet, you don't need them. This is a problem. Soy supplements can potentially have a lot of oestrogen in them. They have a lot of phytoestrogens in, so a supplement can have a massive dose of soy that could trigger an ER positive breast cancer cell to grow again. So no soy supplements, but as part of a healthy diet it's completely fine.

Speaker 1: 28:52

Okay, wow, wow, okay. So let's get into this estrogen thing. So I have a functional health doctor here where I live and he's been really great. I have an autoimmune and he's the one who put me through all the testing. He's got Hashimoto's and so he's got a lot of knowledge. And he would say the same thing about soy, because we've talked about it before.

Speaker 1: 29:16

What I did not know so I had HER2 positive, erpr negative. What does that mean? And what does it mean when it comes to estrogen? Because that is still very unclear in my mind. What I do know is he said cause? I came into him after I had gone to my new gynecologist and I had an oophorectomy during my second surgery. And I came into him one day and I said hey, I just want to let you know that my gynecologist put me on this estrogen patch. And he says why? And I said well, because I no longer have my ovaries and I don't know. She just said that I should have this patch. And he says did she test your levels? And I said no, and he says why not?

Speaker 2: 30:03

And so he's told me that that is really important to be able to. Yeah, there's a lot to unpick here. So, firstly, I am skeptical about functional medicine because the field was invented in 1991 by a businessman who wanted to sell supplements and it believes cancer is a metabolic disease, not genetic, and that's the story for a whole other podcast. But you get your gynecological advice from a gynecologist. You make sure that the doctor has the actual training, because a generalist doesn't, and it's very specific when you've had breast cancer. So we've got to talk about oestrogen and HRT.

Speaker 2: 30:36

So every breast cell has receptors on its surface where it picks up triggers that make it grow or make it die. And breast cancer cells can have one of three receptors on their surface that they express a lot of or they express none of, and there are three possible receptors there's ER, which is oestrogen, there's PR, which is progesterone, and there's HER2, which is HER2 is the name of a growth factor, and any breast cancer can have any combination of those. The common ones are ER positive, which means this has lots and lots and lots of ER receptors. So it takes up all that estrogen and that makes that cell grow and grow and grow. Her2 is another growth factor.

Speaker 2: 31:10

So when you have HER2 molecule HER2 is the name of the drug when you have HER2 molecules in the blood, they attack to all these receptors on the breast cancer cell and make them grow and grow and grow. They have a lot more of these receptors than a normal cell. So that means that if you have an ER positive breast cancer meaning it overexpresses oestrogen receptors we can stop it coming back in the future by giving you treatments to lower the level of estrogen in your blood so it doesn't have that food available. With HER2 positive breast cancers we give you drugs that stop it attacking to the HER2 receptor, like Herceptin, like Progetta, like Trastuzumab, and what they do is block that receptor so the cancer cell can't get its food. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 31:50

Yes, that makes way better.

Speaker 2: 31:51

Estrogen doesn't cause breast cancer, but it will stimulate breast cancers to grow.

Speaker 1: 31:56

Okay.

Speaker 2: 31:57

And that's why we lower the levels of oestrogen to stop it happening. Okay, now you have a HER2 positive, er negative breast cancer. That means that your breast cancer cells, when you were diagnosed, weren't driven by oestrogen. Okay, so HRT and this is very controversial at the moment. Hrt is a last resort for anyone with breast cancer. We know that it can increase the risk of recurrence and therefore the risk of death if you have it, but the symptoms can be very hard. However, there are lots of drugs that you can take to help with the symptoms of hrt, like the hot flushes and night sweats that aren't hrt.

Speaker 2: 32:29

Cancers are sneaky so-and-sos and they carry on mutating. And if if you have an ER negative breast cancer whether that's HER2 or triple negative, they can mutate and if, god forbid, your cancer did come back, it could mutate to develop oestrogen receptors. So the worry is that that oestrogen you're having as HRT could potentially stimulate the growth of a cancer cell years in the future. But the chance of that happening is very, very small. But you need to know that risk. We generally don't test oestrogen levels. Once you've had a neophorectomy, we know they're going to be low because you still make oestrogen in your fat. So ignore what the functional doctor was saying. Your risk of getting a breast cancer stimulated by the oestrogen you're having is very, very small, but there is a potential risk it could happen.

Speaker 1: 33:09

Okay.

Speaker 2: 33:10

So it's okay that I have the patch with the estrogen yeah, I'm assuming she's giving you estrogen for your symptoms of the menopause because you've lost your ovaries. You didn't have hormone blockers. You didn't have hormone blockers because you're not on tamoxifen, so your risk of getting an estrogen positive recurrence is very, very, very, very low. So it's almost certainly acceptable for you to be given estrogen only hrt okay, so good to know.

Speaker 1: 33:32

Thank you, and this is why I.

Speaker 2: 33:34

But if someone listening has oestrogen-positive breast cancer, hrt should be a last resort. Okay, because the extra oestrogen you are having could stimulate cancer cells in your bloodstream to start to grow again.

Speaker 1: 33:45

Okay, good to know, and so this is why I am a digger. I want to know, I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I know who to come to if I need to ask again.

Speaker 2: 33:56

It's getting breast cancer advice from a breast surgeon because a guide oncologist may say, hey, yeah, it's fine to put you on estrogen, but actually does your oncologist know? And if they said, well, actually this could interact with a cancer, Okay, you need to make sure that any decision that could affect your breast cancer anyone listening you check with your oncologist or your surgeon.

Speaker 1: 34:12

Fair enough. I have a really good oncologist friend who reached out to me. She had found my podcast last year sometime and she reached out to me. She's in New York and she's incredibly knowledgeable Dr Tiffany Troso and so these are conversations that I have with her as well, and she's always looking for the best information. So I think this is a conversation she and I will definitely be having. So now that I have an understanding more of what kind of breast cancer I have, because they can tell you look at what you have. It means nothing, does it? I have no idea. I'm like what does that mean? Whole new dictionary. Well, I heard you say there's 13 different kinds of breast cancer.

Speaker 2: 34:49

I mean, wow, so that's 13 different cells in the breast that breast cancer can form from, and then each of those cancers could have a combination of three different receptors. So that's over 50 different types of breast cancer. And then you split it up by grade one, two or three and the number of lymph nodes involved, there's potentially over 200 different types of breast cancer. So whenever a treatment online says this cures cancer, well, hang on. There are over 200 cancers and there's over 50 different types of breast cancer. So whenever a treatment online says this cures cancer, well, hang on. There are over 200 cancers, so there's over 50 different types of breast cancer. Which cancer are you talking about?

Speaker 1: 35:19

Yeah, well, because when I was diagnosed I actually had people say things like why don't they just get in there and cut that sucker out right now? I mean, that's what they know, right? So you get breast cancer and that you know people who go get surgery right away. And I was wondering the same thing. It's like why do I know some people who had surgery before the chemo and radiation and I'm having mine later and my oncologist and my surgeon explained it to me in a way that made a lot more sense For one? They want to get in there to see if the chemo will shrink the tumor. They want to know the efficacy, right, and so if it does come back in the future, we know that that particular treatment helped or whatever. So is that correct, dr Liz? Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2: 36:04

The two reasons we give chemo. First one is if it's a large cancer and it shrinks to nothing you can avoid a mastectomy. The second is there are trials that have shown that giving Herceptin treatments before surgery and Herceptin has to be given with chemo and if you've got a triple negative cancer, giving chemo first increases your chance of survival and the benefit of that is we can see is it working as your tumor shrinking? So triple negative, her2 positive and large ER positive cancers in young women will have chemo first before surgery.

Speaker 1: 36:32

Okay, I can't wait to listen to this episode again and again.

Speaker 2: 36:38

I'm going to have to come back, aren't I? And answer the questions.

Speaker 1: 36:40

I know seriously. I remember that originally we thought that I would be able to do a lumpectomy. So it was probably after my second chemo. We were feeling and the tumor had shrunk dramatically. So we knew right away that it was working and I was hoping for a lumpectomy. When all came down to it, my surgeon said we need to say goodbye to your left breast, and I mean, of course that comes with all kinds of doom and gloom type stuff.

Speaker 1: 37:09

I did hear your reel today or yesterday or whenever. It was about this idea of lumpectomies and mastectomies, and I understand that you're going to come back and give us more information.

Speaker 2: 37:20

I've done the work. So there's a study that showed that women who have a lumpectomy are less likely to die than women who have a mastectomy, and that's a terrifying headline. We are talking about women with small cancers who can have a lumpectomy, but a lot chose to have a mastectomy. This is not women with big cancers, where mastectomy is the only option. In a nutshell, the studies they looked at were very biased. There was a lot of confounding. They were bad studies and the study itself said this is very low quality evidence. Do not take it to heart. Anything must be interpreted with caution. This is very, very low evidence because the studies are poor and they are biased. In a nutshell, it's a minimal increase in safety.

Speaker 2: 38:00

The studies looked at women from 1990 to 2015. They were lumped together with triple negative and near positive. Some had big tumors. There's a big difference between a no one who had chemotherapy first was included. There's a big difference between a one centimeter ER positive no negative cancer and a five centimeter triple negative with three positive lymph nodes. There are so many things that you can't tease out. So there may be a tiny survival advantage, but that is not a reason to make a decision about what surgery you have.

Speaker 1: 38:29

That must be really frustrating for you to see these headlines like this, because we are all watching the media and we all want to believe in science and we all want to believe the experts or whatever. So what makes it that they would come?

Speaker 2: 38:44

out with such a headline. It's selling headlines. It's like when I am trying to counteract misinformation, the thing that gets views is angry and clickbait and this and that's not me, so you don't get that impact it's headlines. So what we're trying to do is stop women believing that having a mastectomy will stop them dying from breast cancer. There is nothing that can stop you dying from breast cancer, and having a lumpectomy is exactly as safe as having a mastectomy. So we're trying to stop women thinking a mastectomy will stop it coming back, so doing unnecessary mastectomies.

Speaker 2: 39:14

Some women choose to have them because they don't want radiotherapy. It's personal choice. I'm fine. It's making that decision for the right reason and that's a good message to get out there. But what they didn't have was someone explaining it for women who've already been through that surgery to tell them not to panic. And I think that's where I kind of come in to say hang on, let me look at this. What does it mean for you? But it takes four hours out of my day to put everything down and suddenly get on top of this.

Speaker 1: 39:37

Whilst it's newsworthy, God I had things planned.

Speaker 2: 39:40

Yeah, it takes a lot being a scientist, a researcher it does, Putting it out there on the platform and actually you kind of have to ignore the survival stats, because in the last four or five years there have been 20 new drugs that have come on the market, so things are getting better. All the time we now give chemotherapy up front, there's personalized medicine coming in. That is the worst case scenario.

Speaker 1: 40:01

And what do you know about this vaccine that they're working on?

Speaker 2: 40:05

So that's for her to positive breast cancer, isn't it? Yeah, Still early trials. Yeah, it's hopeful. In the UK we've just given a vaccine to a man with bowel cancer for a specific mutation to see if that will help. I think the future will potentially be. We'll do a molecular analysis on your cancer. You have this mutation. I can give you a vaccine for that to try and stop it coming back. We are many years away from that at the moment, but things are moving really quickly. I think it's really exciting to see what the future will hold.

Speaker 1: 40:31

It is. I just interviewed Kristen Dahlgren, the former correspondent from NBC and her nonprofit Cancer Vaccine Coalition. She calls it now.

Speaker 2: 40:41

What's the?

Speaker 1: 40:42

people's project. Yeah, she was just such a neat lady. You had a mastectomy and then you got implants. And then what happened from there?

Speaker 2: 40:52

So I had radiotherapy after my implant reconstruction and some surgeons won't give you an implant because radiotherapy can mess up your implant. An implant is a foreign body and what the body normally does is form a capsule around it like a pea in a shell. What radiotherapy can do is make that capsule become hard and tight like a tennis ball. Now it can happen by itself, but radiotherapy increases the risk of that happening, and it happened to me. My implant was like a hard, tight ball heading up towards my ear and I was planning to get rid of it because I was in a lot of pain.

Speaker 2: 41:23

However, when I went to see my surgeon, she noticed this little lump of scar tissue that turned out to be the recurrence. So I had a nipple, sparing mastectomy in the beginning and then I went flat. I had the implant taken out and then when I had my second local recurrence, we took another strip of skin. So I'm pulled really, really tight to try and close the gap because I don't have much skin left. But it was hard having an implant. I didn't realize that when you have a breast reconstruction the skin is numb. You don't feel anything. It's not a breast, it's a mound of tissue to stop you having to wear a prosthetic in a bra.

Speaker 1: 41:52

Right, yeah, mine are pretty numb. I do want to let you know that I put together a girl's trip. Just a couple weeks ago. We went to San Antonio, texas. There's a lovely medical spa called Perky. I don't know if you know who they are. They probably seen. I think they follow you. They are two nurses who used to work at PRMA plastic surgery and they did the nipple and areola tattoos there. So they created Perky and I got to know them. I interviewed them on my podcast Crystal and Courtney amazing women and I got three of my breast cancer friends that I'd never met in person. One person didn't need them, but she came to the trip anyway. We all stayed in the Airbnb that Crystal's dad and mom own and we made a girl's trip out of it and we all got our nipple and areola tattoos. I love that, yeah, and I didn't feel a thing.

Speaker 2: 42:45

No, it's great. So the nipple tattoo is really interesting. My breast care nurses used to do it and it's incredible 3D inks, it's a real art. But I remember one of my bosses told me a story about a woman who'd had a reconstruction and one of the juniors was seeing her and he said all you need now is a nipple. And that woman felt awful because she loved how her breasts looked. And suddenly this guy saying it's not perfect because it doesn't have a nipple. There are so many choices. I know women who've had amazing flowers and birds tattooed over their chest to make it something go crazy because you can. And there's so much choice out there. And there are now bras for women who don't want to wear a prosthesis so you can get left or right cups. The world is changing. It's incredible.

Speaker 1: 43:22

That's what I love about breast cancer the club we don't want to be involved in. But there are so many options. There are surgical options, there are options of whether you are going to get nipples or not, or prosthetics or whatever. And for me, I loved my breast. I didn't think I was going to love my breasts again. I was one of those like, oh my God, I'm my womanhood, blah, blah, blah. Because of the type of surgery that I had, I personally am very happy with it. I had a wonderful surgeon at Center for Restorative Breast Surgery, dr Cabling.

Speaker 1: 43:53

I did the nipple tattoos because I was curious. I wanted to see because my friend had told me she says it's such a game changer. It really is and I was more curious than anything. I am really happy that I did it. But for people who choose not to do that, I mean it's perfectly fine, like people get to do whatever they want and nobody gets to tell you what you can and cannot do with it. And I love the fact that you came on Instagram and you are flat and so you showed it on Instagram and I love reading some of the comments. You know you have a lot of support out there, but there are some people who are a little too judgmental.

Speaker 2: 44:29

Yes, how dare you put that out there. But I think you don't really see what scars are like, and I think it's knowing there is no normal and what is right for you is right for you and you can do what you like and no one is looking at you. I spent the first six months I didn't look at myself from the neck down when I had my mastectomy. I thought I looked terrific. I hated the scar. I didn't feel like I didn't have to flirt. I'd lost my hair, I lost my boobs and I was going around in hunched shoulders thinking what am I going to do in the summer? And then you realize no one's looking at you because we all think everyone's looking at us and it kind of. My shoulders came back and I thought it's okay. What I hate and this is just personal I hated having my nipples showing. So I always wore padded bras and when you just wear a crop top, I hate having that one nipple sticking out. I've got over it now, but it's just these little things you think. Oh.

Speaker 1: 45:20

That's just very different. I heard, in one of the podcasts that you were interviewing on I think it was with a gentleman, and you were talking about how, oh, you couldn't flirt anymore. You couldn't put your hair behind your ears. Before breast cancer, I had really long blonde hair, so I was always doing this and now I can't anymore. Well, I kind of can and I'm staying short.

Speaker 2: 45:35

Yeah, whereas I don't want to flirt anymore because I have no estrogen. It's like I just literally just want a cup of tea. But it's those. I had to learn how to be feminine. When you lose your breasts, you lose your hair, you lose your eyelashes, you lose your estrogen, your ovaries, you lose your sex hormones. All the things you would give a man who is transitioning to become a woman have gone from me. I'm infertile. Transitioning to become a woman have gone from me. I'm infertile and so much loss. And what does it mean to be a woman? And how can you feel like a woman and feel sexy and feel fun when you're in this body that is so different from the norms you're led to believe.

Speaker 1: 46:09

Well, your presence on social media and your interviews that I've listened to, you are a beautiful human being. I am so drawn to you just because of the way you are. You talk about the good, the bad, the ugly. You use analogies that are so easily understood, like, for example, about dense breast tissue. You talked about what it looks like to have dense breast tissue in younger. You know like cause, the younger we are, that you have the, and then the older you get, the less dense they get, and you the milk and coffee and marshmallows.

Speaker 2: 46:44

Yeah, coffee.

Speaker 1: 46:45

Yep, yep, and I'm like you know, because I used to use analogies all the time with the kids in the classroom and it just made me understand it better. So yeah, I do want to wrap up with a couple of different questions. One can we talk about sex? Because before I got breast cancer, I think it was maybe a month before my husband and I were having some fun and it hurt really bad. For the first time in our whole entire relationship, my husband and I have a very, very close relationship. We've always been intimate, we've always had a connection, so it was really disappointing and just scary at the fact that that hurts so bad.

Speaker 1: 47:23

Looking back, I would imagine that I obviously was going through menopause. I was 54 years old and of course, I think back now it's like okay, I know breast cancer impacts that, so I obviously had cancer. I just didn't know it yet. After I got finished with all the treatments and everything, I know breast cancer impacts that. So I obviously had cancer. I just didn't know it yet. After I got finished with all the treatments and everything, I went to my gynecologist and she talked about how your, when we get older anyway, that your vagina shrinks this way and this way, all the ways, and I'm like I had. I never knew that before. Wouldn't that be a good thing, doctor? And she's. And then she said that you know obviously the vaginal dryness and everything.

Speaker 1: 48:01

So she put me on UVFM and then also the Restella, I think or it's one of the Reverie, I think it is inserts, and so I started using those. I think it's hydraulic acid. And then I remember being on that for a while and then, like a couple months down the road, my husband and I are like, okay, you want to try, and so we did and it didn't hurt. I was so excited I couldn't believe it. But, that being said, it didn't hurt. I'm really glad and I still get horny and all of that stuff. But sex is different with me and my husband. It's not like I want it to keep going and going and going. It's like, okay, let's do this. You know what I mean. You're very open about your sex life and how you moved through that.

Speaker 2: 48:47

Yeah, so estrogen is a natural lubricant and when your levels drop at the menopause, your vagina doesn't get as much estrogen, so it becomes dry. So you don't get wet as easily as you would before. Now you didn't have an oestrogen blocker to lower your levels, but when you had your ovaries out it would have been a bit like being on tamoxifen. You still make a bit of oestrogen in your fat after the menopause. When you're on the drugs that I am an aromatase inhibitor we have no oestrogen. So the menopause your vagina becomes dry because you don't lubricate naturally. The vagina is a muscle, so the less sex you have, the weaker it gets, the more it shrinks because it's not being used. It atrophies and the skin can get quite thin. And all of that means that your libido drops because oestrogen is a sex hormone. So you might not want sex. And there are lots of other reasons people don't want sex, just the mental stimulation of breast cancer. But I'm just talking about penetrative sex here. You don't want it, you don't get wet when you try it. It's painful, it can feel like marital rape, I've been told, and you just don't know what to do. And then the husband can't get erect or the partner. It's just this whole cycle.

Speaker 2: 49:46

Everyone should be using lube. Lube should be your best friend and I thought it was something just prostitutes should use, but it's great. You need to use a lube that has no chemicals, no glycerin, nothing added, nothing over the counter. In the UK I recommend lubricants called yes and Sutil S-U-T-I-L. There's also a silicone one called S-Y-L-K, but I don't like it because silicone smears but just using lube. It's called yes. I think they sell it in the States yes, okay, I'm looking it up on Amazon. It's vaginal and anal and it's oil and water-based. So it's fine to use the condom. It makes everything fun. They also do internal vaginal moisturizers just to keep things slippy.

Speaker 2: 50:27

But if you have an ER positive breast cancer, you can still use vaginal estrogen as a pessary or a cream. It is safe, it does not increase the risk of recurrence and that helps moisturize the vagina, because it's not just painful sex, it can be cystitis. I was getting labial skin tears on a bike. The loss of libido is a killer and it's hard to bring it back, and that's where masturbation can help.

Speaker 2: 50:48

You often need a very different stimulus. There are some incredible air pulse vibrators. You often need a much stronger sensation on your clitoris to actually orgasm. But by doing that yourself you realize how good it feels, that you can get there. It may not be spontaneous, it may be. Hold on, stop, let me get the lube out and let me do this. But you can still have penetrative sex, but it will be different and it takes time. Another thing women can use you can get vaginal dilators and you can gently stretch yourself up with lubes. The vagina gets used to accommodating a little finger size and then a thumb size and up to an erection size dilator. So if you can get that inside you, you know that penetrative sex is possible.

Speaker 1: 51:23

But I never talked about it, yeah Well, and a lot of people don't talk about it and I do, and I don't care, you know what other people think about. These are things that people actually think about, whether they talk about it or not.

Speaker 1: 51:36

I use stuff called Uber lube. Okay, yep, my gynecologist recommended that and I love it because it doesn't have a bunch of stuff in it, and that's one of the reasons I didn't like it before, because I they have stuff in them and I didn't want to use those. But she did talk about those dilators and I do have the dilators and that those did help as well. So, yeah, thanks for bringing that up. Yeah, no, I just think that it's something that we do need to talk about it because it comes right along with. Yeah, I think the last I heard it was like 40% of couples split up because of breast cancer.

Speaker 2: 52:10

And it's not just the physical. There's so much going on, but I think everyone needs to know that this will impact your relationship and there is help available when you are ready to start reaching out.

Speaker 1: 52:20

Well, it sounds like you have a really good relationship with your husband. I do too. I mean, obviously we had some ups and downs, emotional ups and downs. We still see a therapist to this day because of it, and we will tell you that it helps tremendously. We still see her because even in the good it's good to talk about things and this is the space that we actually sit down and talk about, sometimes the elephant in the room or whatever it is and I will say that it has enhanced our relationship just that much more. And so it sounds like you have a good communication and connection with your husband as well. What else can you say that is encouraging with science right now? I know we talked about there's something to do with a.

Speaker 2: 53:07

Yeah, you go ahead, you just say no, no, no, go on, no, no, no, you ask me.

Speaker 1: 53:11

I just want to know what we can look forward to, what is exciting about science right now and breast cancer.

Speaker 2: 53:17

So there's a lot of work being done about immunotherapy drugs and personalized medicine and there's stuff looking at HER2 low cancers and giving them Herceptin drugs with metastatic disease. So the second edition of my breast cancer book is coming out this October and there've been 20 new drugs in the last five years. So we literally just don't know what's around the corner. It's incredible, but I've just come back from the American College of Sports Medicine seeing the evidence about exercise and breast cancer and there is now proof upon proof upon proof that exercise can reduce the risk of a recurrence by up to 30%. We should all be getting hot and sweaty doing aerobic exercise and resistance training five times a week. It's free. It's the only time I feel like liz and not a cancer patient it should be the first drug that everybody is prescribed I was brought up in a fan.

Speaker 2: 54:09

Seriously, we recommend three half an hour aerobic sessions. Where you are sorry about that? No, go on. Sorry, I'll be quiet.

Speaker 1: 54:16

No, no, go on, go on I was just gonna say I was brought up in a family that we exercised and so I've always exercised, but there are times where I've kind of gone into a lull and this is something that we need to hear, because it's easy just to sit on the couch or do something that's not physically active because you're just tired or you don't have time. And the fact of the matter is is that there are 24 hours in a day and we have time to take one hour out to be able to get our heart rates up and do some resistance training.

Speaker 2: 54:50

You can do squats when you're sitting on the toilet. You can do lunges when you're brushing your teeth. You can do pushups against the kitchen counter when you're waiting for the kettle to boil. You can fit it into the day. The washing's got to go upstairs. You take it sock by sock and go up and down the stairs. There are lots of ways of fitting in. You don't need to be in a gym, but this is a huge thing that can reduce the risk of recurrence Awesome, okay.

Speaker 1: 55:12

Well then I'm going to go get on my bike today. Then I'm going to go get on my bike today, all right, so we can find you all over the place. We have you on Instagram and YouTube and Twitter, and you have a website, a fabulous website. I love the graphics on there. I also have your link to yours. So now I've got breast cancer book, your podcast, I would like to find your link to the other, your memoir and whatever else you have.

Speaker 2: 55:37

The memoir is called Under the Knife, life Lessons from the Operating Theater and that's available on amazoncom.

Speaker 1: 55:43

Okay, wonderful. Is there anything you would like to leave us with? Any words of wisdom as far as for people who've never been diagnosed, or whatever you'd like to put out there?

Speaker 2: 55:55

Yes, two things I would say. Everyone's going to know somebody who's got breast cancer and it can be terrifying and scary, but you get through it, just like you and I have, and you're not alone if it happens to you. Exercise can reduce the risk of you getting breast cancer by 20%, so we should all be doing it from a young age and check your breasts. I never did because I thought it would never happen to me. M because I thought it would never happen to me. Mammograms aren't very effective in young women, so if you're listening or you've got young daughters or nieces listening, get them to check their breasts, and there's a video on my Instagram and YouTube channel showing you how to do it properly and what to feel.

Speaker 1: 56:25

Oh, I'll put that in the show notes too and look for, because I never knew that you could visibly see something. Well, dr Liz, thank you so much, you so much. It is such a pleasure to be able to talk with you and I love the myth busting because every time I do an interview really, I learn something, and I've learned so so much from you just in this one interview, and I will let you know when this episode releases, and I just appreciate you and I hope you have a good rest of your night. And to my audience, thank you again for joining me on this episode of Test those Breasts. As always, please go to your favorite platform, rate and review. It absolutely helps, and I will see you next time on the next episode of Test those Breasts. Bye for now, friends.

Speaker 1: 57:10

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Test those Breasts. I hope you got some great much needed information that will help you with your journey. As always, I am open to guests to add value to my show and I'm also open to being a guest on other podcasts where I can add value. So please reach out if you'd like to collaborate. My contact information is in the show notes and as a reminder, rating, reviewing and sharing this podcast will truly help build a bigger audience all over the world. I thank you for your efforts. I look forward to sharing my next episode of Test those Breasts.