Episode 63: Two by Two: Friendship and Faith in the Fight Against Cancer w/Kathryn Tortorici & Nancy Bynon

How did a kindergarten teacher and a nurse not only survive breast cancer but also find a way to help others facing the same journey? Kathryn Tortorici and Nancy Bynon join us to share their extraordinary story of friendship and resilience. Their bond, which began over a Junior League cookbook project, became a vital support system as they navigated their diagnoses and treatments. Together, they celebrate 5 years of being disease-free, showcasing the profound impact of companionship and faith during life's toughest battles.

Throughout this episode, Kathryn and Nancy discuss the deep emotional support they offered each other, leaning on their shared faith and the broader sisterhood of women battling cancer. They highlight their collaborative book, "Two By Two: Conversations Between Friends Navigating Breast Cancer ," where they weave personal anecdotes, practical advice, and faith-based reflections to create a comforting resource for others. Kathryn’s creativity and Nancy’s technical expertise blend seamlessly to present complex topics in an accessible way, showing the significant role of community and mutual support.

Listeners will hear about the individuality of cancer journeys and the importance of respecting everyone's unique way of coping. Kathryn and Nancy share heartfelt stories and practical tips from their book, emphasizing the importance of relationships, routine mammograms, and being one's own health advocate. Their conversation is a powerful reminder of the strength found in the community and the unexpected silver linings that emerge from life's most challenging experiences.

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I am not a doctor and not all information in this podcast comes from qualified healthcare providers, therefore may not constitute medical advice. For personalized medical advice, you should reach out to one of the qualified healthcare providers interviewed on this podcast and/or seek medical advice from your own providers .

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello friends, welcome back to the Test those Breasts podcast. I am your host, jamie Vaughn. I'm a retired teacher of 20 years and a breast cancer thriver turned staunch, unapologetic, loud supporter and advocate for others, bringing education and awareness through a myriad of medical experts, therapists, caregivers and other survivors. A breast cancer diagnosis is incredibly overwhelming, with the mounds of information out there, and other survivors A breast cancer diagnosis is incredibly overwhelming, with the mounds of information out there, especially on Dr Google. I get it. I'm not a doctor and I know how important it is to uncover accurate information, which is my ongoing mission through my nonprofit. The podcast includes personal stories and opinions from breast cancer survivors and professional physicians, providing the most up-to-date information. At the time of recording Evidence, research and practices are always changing, so please check the date of the recording and always refer to your medical professionals for the most up-to-date information. I hope you find this podcast a source of inspiration and support from my guests. Their contact information is in the show notes, so please feel free to reach out to them. We have an enormous breast cancer community ready to support you in so many ways. Now let's listen to the next episode of Test those Breasts. Hey, welcome back, friends to this episode of Test those Breasts. I am your host, jamie Vaughn, and today I am so excited to have two amazing women on my show I got to connect with just a couple of months ago. First we have Catherine Tortorici and we have Nancy Bynum on my show.

Speaker 1: 1:40

So Catherine lives in Birmingham, alabama, with Sam, her high school sweetheart and husband of 35 years. She has an education degree from Auburn University and taught kindergarten for five years. She is blessed with three adult children, two daughter-in-laws and two granddaughters. Catherine enjoys painting, sewing and writing. When she's not traveling or involved with Bible study, she is walking her golden retriever. Catherine's passion is hospitality serving others in her home, in the community or in Menton, alabama, menton, menton and she loves people and sharing her faith.

Speaker 1: 2:25

Nancy grew up in Dauphin, alabama. After graduating from Auburn University with a nursing degree, she moved to Birmingham, alabama, and worked at the University of Alabama in Birmingham Hospital for eight years. Uab is where she met Steve, her husband of 37 years. They have a son and daughter, a son-in-law and a precious granddaughter. Pearl, nancy's loving Labrador companion, is always by her side. Nancy's favorite leisure activities are spending time with friends and family in Colorado, needlepointing, travel and baking. Well, nancy and Catherine, it is so good to have you on my show and we're finally doing this interview. We had such a lovely conversation a couple of months ago and had quite a connection, and I could see the connection with you two as your friendship has blossomed over time for a reason and we're going to talk a bit about that. But how are you two doing, nancy? How are you doing today? Great.

Speaker 2: 3:20

Great, five years out and happy, and I can't complain. It's a little hot in Houston. That's the only thing where heat index of 107, but oh my, yeah, that does sound a bit hot.

Speaker 1: 3:32

How about you?

Speaker 3: 3:32

Catherine Doing great. I just hit my five-year mark and doing really well. Things are great, birmingham's great, so thank you yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:42

So you two have a really interesting story. You were friends and you both got breast cancer at almost the same exact time. You both just mentioned that you're both five years out from being what we call disease-free. I want to start off with who were Nancy and Catherine before breast cancer, meaning, who were you as human beings? How did you show up in the world? What were you doing? What was your friendship like? So, catherine, why don't we go ahead and start with you?

Speaker 3: 4:17

Well, I taught kindergarten for five years and then became a stay-at-home mother and had the two boys and my daughter, and then, when they were young, I was involved with the Birmingham Junior League, or the Junior League of Birmingham, I should say. That's kind of how I met Nancy. My passion was cooking. I wanted to be able to cook for my family, and part of that was, with the cookbooks, learning more about these books that raise money for the Junior League for years and years, and I thought that's something that would last. And then, when they asked me to help with the third cookbook, I was so excited and I asked Nancy to come and join in, so we were the co-editors of the last cookbook that the league did and we became close friends, I mean, and we talked all the time, and that was before the smartphones, and so we had to talk every, and so it was the best habit, because we're still talking every single day even now. So that's how I was beforehand.

Speaker 1: 5:19

So you guys probably had those Nokia phones that flipped open so you actually had to pick up the phone. You couldn't text each other. Yeah, all right. Well, that sounds really fun. How about you, nancy? What were you like?

Speaker 2: 5:33

Yeah, I always laugh because Catherine and I have a different story on how we met. I heard she was actually going to do the cookbook, so I actually ran to her and said, any chance I could be on your committee. I thought I'd be a recipe tester and she said would you want to be my co-chair? So I had to think about it and I thought I could do this, not realizing how hard that would be, but what we've learned and, like you say, talking to each other.

Speaker 2: 5:55

The people before us did not even have email. They had a typewriter. We felt fortunate to be able to email each other, but the meetings, the talking and communications. Actually our boys are the same age and they play football and basketball, so we had to separate ourselves because we would be at these basketball games over there talking about what we should be doing next. I'm a nurse but you know, just in nursing school they don't teach you about cancer. So I had to totally re-educate myself when I found out I had cancer and that we were within a week of each other finding out. Found out I had cancer and that we were within a week of each other finding out Our mammograms were at different times but by the testing coming and I told Catherine and then that day in Birmingham she actually drove in her driveway and calls me back and said I got that phone call, I have cancer too.

Speaker 1: 6:38

You know, it's really interesting that you two got it just at the same time, because when I got mine, I didn't have any other friends that I knew of that had cancer. I mean, I knew people who had cancer, but not at the same time as I did. So I feel like when you two found out that you had cancer even though it's not something we want to hear, of course, but I also feel like you two already had cultivated such a nice relationship that you were able to essentially go through this together and you actually could probably FaceTime each other, because at that time there were smartphones right, so you could keep in touch, you could text, you could video chat and things like that. So with that, catherine, why don't you share what your circumstances were, how you found the cancer, what the diagnosis was, what your treatments were like and whatever else you'd like to share?

Speaker 3: 7:34

Well, my husband and I had just moved to Atlanta, a new city away from Birmingham, so everything was new. I didn't even know where the grocery store was, and then I got my diagnosis. So not only was I learning new things about my new home, hospitals and all that, I was learning this new room called cancer, best care, best physician, best surgeon and so it was really interesting because it was nothing what I was familiar with in Birmingham. Everything was new.

Speaker 3: 8:12

After my surgery, I found out that I had right side, I had a lumpectomy, I had lobular or invasive lobular carcinoma in situ, and so I just had to do 28 rounds of radiation, which was new for me. I mean, that word scared me. I didn't even know the difference between radiation and chemo. I had to learn all of that. But with Nancy, we would talk, and so while she was learning, I was learning, and we would, you know, run off on each other kind of spoon, feeding each other what we had to know, rather than reading a book and learning more than we really wanted to know. So that was the relationship was so important. So that's where I was when I found out about my cancer.

Speaker 1: 8:57

Did this happen through a routine mammogram or did you just say that? I didn't hear what you just said about that. Did you feel something or did you just go and there you have it.

Speaker 3: 9:10

Actually I had a routine, my routine mammogram in Birmingham. Had that, and then they called me back for an ultrasound. Had that, and then it was. Then my husband and I said you know, we've got to change over and go find somebody here in Atlanta to help us out.

Speaker 1: 9:28

So I just had a conversation this morning with someone who had just moved I think it was to North Carolina when she found out and so she had this whole new place that she was living and this cancer to deal with. So that just kind of threw a whole nother monkey wrench into it. Cancer to deal with so that just kind of threw a whole nother monkey wrench into it, Nancy. And then how did that all play into your situation and who was diagnosed first?

Speaker 2: 9:52

That's kind of hard.

Speaker 2: 9:53

I actually did a routine mammogram and got a call back because they found I don't know if you kind of hear a lot of women walk around with calcifications in their breasts, but it wasn't there the year before and sometimes that can be something your body's fighting. They just saw little white micro calcifications. So I went in and had a diagnostic mammogram. Couldn't see it on that, did an ultrasound. That's where they found an ultrasound and did a biopsy. And the same thing.

Speaker 2: 10:20

I had invasive ductal carcinoma in site two on the right side and it was positive for estrogen progesterone but the HER2 was negative. And that was the same with Catherine. Just by doing that routine mammogram and I was at MD Anderson and when we first moved from Birmingham to Houston everybody kept saying you got to get in their well-checked program. So I would go every year and have the dermat, know the dermatologist mammograms, all that kind of stuff every year. And that's when they found mine. Unfortunately, like with Catherine, both being positive for estrogen, they sent that off and had that archetype. My score was for genetically testing issues later on. So I stopped there and went to chemo and then came back to radiation. So Catherine told me what to wear, what to do when I did radiation but I got backtracked a little bit with the chemo.

Speaker 1: 11:10

Okay, this diagnosis for both of you really probably changed your relationship with each other as far as friendship goes in such a dramatic way because of this. Can you share a little, catherine, about what your friendship was? I mean, I know what your friendship was before cancer, but how that sort of developed over time as far as how you felt about Nancy and her friendship with you.

Speaker 3: 11:37

Well, it's kind of like a mountain. You can climb a mountain by yourself, but who wants to? I mean, in having Nancy with me, I felt like we were buddy-buddy, the study buddy, and we could climb that mountain together. You know, I've always said to people that cancer is like the professor nobody wants in school because it's so hard, it's unfair. There's going to be a lot of crying, a lot of tears, a lot of late nights, a lot of unknowns, but when that course is finished, you're tested, you're proven and you know what matters.

Speaker 3: 12:09

Well, I feel like Nancy was my study buddy and together we took that course together and because of that our friendship grew in more ways than just knowledge. Or you know, how's your dog, how's your family? But it was all about our health. The overflow of that is well, how are you eating? What are you changing in your dog, how's your family? But it was all about our health. The overflow of that is well, how are you eating? What are you changing in your lifestyle? How many minutes did you walk today? Or how are you moving?

Speaker 3: 12:34

And then that overflow was how many people did you get to help today on the telephone? Because we would get phone calls all the time, and so then that was an overflow. Our relationship with each other really grew, but it was an organic growth in that we never would have seen this way back doing the cookbook together, how, having cancer and we were each other's best friend, somebody to cry on shoulder to cry on, somebody to lift you up, somebody to share a Bible verse with you, to give you that energy, that support, because we knew this was out of our control, but God was in control and we would just remind each other that so we wouldn't get down.

Speaker 1: 13:14

Yeah, that must have been really comforting to be able to talk to each other and sort of talk each other One of you might have been okay one day and the other person not so much and you would sort of probably tag team each other and help each other. I didn't have anyone who I was going through it with that was friends of mine before, but then I met a couple of people in the process where we became really good friends and we would reach out to each other and help each other through the days. So we would start a. We have one group on our Facebook messenger. We're called the Badass Warrior Queens and so every time a little message would come through. It's like oh, it's one of our friends who are going through the same type of thing. So that was very comforting Before I was diagnosed, or actually right after I was diagnosed, one of my friends who had the cancer before I told her and she says oh my gosh, jamie, she says you're about to embark on the sisterhood of all sisterhoods and as you guys know, it is true, there's probably so many people you've met that have had breast cancer and maybe even a few people now currently, and it just is the sisterhood.

Speaker 1: 14:19

It's just so powerful and I feel like it's one of the silver linings that we talk about. And your friendship seems to be one of the silver linings that we talk about. And your friendship seems to be one of those silver linings. You were friends before, but then you just cultivated a closer friendship because of what you went through so much that you both are really helping the breast cancer community in your survivorship and through a book called two by two conversations between friends navigating breast cancer, and I will have the link in the show notes so that people can buy it. You sent me a copy of it and it's such a cool way that you wrote it, because you incorporated not only your faith in there but also recipes, which is so cool because people can just go to. They're written in little vignettes and each one of them end in this really cool recipe, and I'm sitting there looking at the recipes thinking, oh my gosh, these look so good. So, nancy, can you explain how that all came about, that you decided to write this book with Catherine?

Speaker 2: 15:29

Sure, well, first Catherine's, after learning and talking and doing everything and doing a cookbook for the junior league, and we kept that relationship with our publisher this whole time and she just said we need to write a book. And you laugh that off. Oh, that's a great idea, you know. And so we journaled each journal each day. And then, like I say, after all the phone calls and how much you could help someone, and then Catherine really came back and said I think we need to do this. So we called the publisher, gave her an idea of what we want to do.

Speaker 2: 15:58

Catherine's very, very creative and she loves to break things down. And she loves to break things down and she knows I love to cook and she said we have to put recipes in there. She loves to share her faith and she wanted to put a devotional in there. And her mother has the wonderful artwork that she did in the cookbook that she also did, in which Kathy can tell you about that part, into this book. And when we explained to the publisher, she goes we don't see anything like this, let's do it.

Speaker 2: 16:21

So we started doing that We'd write. She's like are you writing today? Yes, kind of. We called it what Writing Wednesday Every Wednesday you had to write and then some kind of thing to make it fun to sit down and write. And then when we said, okay, we would love to have this book before October of last year, and they said, okay, we need everything by March 31st. Then we sat down. We just needed a deadline yeah, it's a deadline and we wrote, wrote, wrote. But all the creativity part comes from Catherine. And then we tried to look at recipes that you could actually make and take to a friend that's going through a prompt, like the granola you can put that little mason jar with a bow and put it at the front door and so we tried to do things like that. That had to really stop and think to make it healthy. We could take out the sugar and use maple syrup. We can just different ways that will make it healthy, that you can take a recipe and make it healthy and not change your major lifestyle.

Speaker 1: 17:13

I love that so much. I originally found out about you two from a school friend of mine from many, many years ago. We went to elementary and middle school together. You had quite a team that helped you put this together. And you know, Nancy, I hear you say that Catherine is the creative person behind this, and I know that there's a lot that can be said about creativity. What are you talking about when you're saying that she is the creative one?

Speaker 2: 17:43

She thinks outside the box, I'm more organized. You just tell me I'll get it all organized and but she's like, okay, let's do this and let's call it two by two. When you know, two by two, when one falls down, the other friend picks them up two by two, by two. You need to go down that path. You go down that path and you've got that mountain. You've hit something. You've got to get over the mountain or around the mountain. You do that two by two and you've got the rounded corners.

Speaker 2: 18:06

Kathy can tell you about that. You're going through life, everything's great, and then, boom, you're throwing a curve. So you've got to figure out how am I going to get to the next part and we've talked about it when it's small enough that you could put it in your purse, your bag, wherever you're going. It's easy to carry, it's easy to give, it's just the colors turned out that way. It's just.

Speaker 2: 18:26

She can think outside the box, just like when it came to the cookbook, of trying to figure out how can we make this different, how can we share our faith, how can we help people? Her stories are beautiful, Mine are real technical. She's a kindergarten teacher, so she's like you got to make this a little more personable and I'm like but I want to tell them what to wear, what to do, what to say. And then she was like well, let's tell them what not to say. That's what I mean by creative. She just totally like with her mother's artwork in the front. Those are watercolors and then the stories. If you read about the train that was her mother's, there's just so much in it that we hope that it encourage, inspires and gives people hope, right.

Speaker 1: 19:11

Well, I feel like your talents and Catherine's talents go really well together. I think sometimes we have to have sort of an opposite talent. If you're working on a project, sometimes it can be frustrating. I'm a school teacher by trade too. I taught middle school and high school. A lot of middle school and to watch kids working together who have different thought processes, some are a lot more creative, some are a lot more technical, but in the end they get the product.

Speaker 1: 19:36

That is amazing, which this book is amazing. You guys sent it to me and when I did open it up I was like okay, this is a really nice size, it's not a difficult read, but it has very poignant messages in there and just very personal. But at the same time, nancy, it tells people what they maybe should do and then in a certain way which I think, that would be very digestible for a lot of people people who are of faith will find this very, very helpful, because you have some great scriptures in there, in every single little vignette. And then, whose idea was to do a recipe? Was that yours, catherine?

Speaker 3: 20:22

No, well, we're both foodies, we both love food, but Nancy is really the one who came up with the recipes and said this is what we need to do. That's her forte, where mine was more of the devotionals. But, just like, cancer is almost like a door you open. Here I'm going back, I take difficult concepts and put it down to something that I can understand. It's a door that we open to cancer and it's a room that we've got to learn and digest and understand how it affects us. And we wanted to be that way for the reader, whoever has been through cancer or knows someone when I'm going through cancer their best friend and we kind of wanted to be the tour director of showing them the new room, what is necessary, here's what you need to know, here's what you wear, here's what you don't wear, here's how you may feel, to let them know it's totally acceptable, it's totally fine in this new room.

Speaker 3: 21:17

The thing about the recipes I'm going to go back, because I think this is so key, is women. We love to give to other people when they've gone through a difficult time. We're always giving a flower, giving a note. Well, with these cute little recipes, you can take them as a gift all of them, I think, except for the salmon. That might be a little hard, but everything else you can do. And so it's loving on others, it's making others feel important. But another thing that we've included in this book which is kind of important is as women, it's hard for us to receive. It's easier for us to love on others and give to others. But when people are doing this for us, sometimes we have to know. Let somebody take you to the doctor. Let somebody go with you to the appointment and hear what they're saying, beating two ears. Let somebody bring you dinner, walk your dog, do your laundry, drive, carpool for your kids. Let others help you during this time. That's why relationships are so key when you have cancer.

Speaker 1: 22:21

Definitely. I like how you end each part with key lessons or key takeaways, because sometimes when we're reading things, sometimes people have to reread something or go back and try to remember what the lessons are. You just outline it right there and it's so nice because if you read that it's like, okay, wait, let me read that again. I like how you do that. That was really cool. You're a really good person to use analogies and school teachers tend to do that. I was really good with analogies. It helped me understand better. No, I think that's such a great way to look at these, and the recipes are perfect to bring to your friends except for the salmon, of course. I love salmon. So what feedback have you gotten with this book, and maybe from people that you already know, or even people who you don't know?

Speaker 2: 23:22

Well, and I can start off, my dad read it and he said you know, you don't have to have breast cancer to read this book. And I said well, tell me why. And he said well, actually it would have helped me to know some of this stuff, to know what to say to you, something you might be going through, what your husband or friend could actually be thinking, because a lot of times people don't know what to say, that they have a tendency not to say anything at all, and it could be just putting a flower at the door that you got out of the yard, just a card, just I'm thinking about you, and so that's what we've heard the most of. You don't have to have breast cancer, and I wish I had read this before I had gone through breast cancer and knowing what to wear or say some of the questions or why they were feeling so bad after chemo, anyway, but that's, I would say, the majority is just. It's very inspirational to any adversity that you may be going through.

Speaker 1: 24:14

So any friends who might have friends who are going through this would find this to be very helpful. Parents would find it very helpful. No, I think that's great. One of the things I like to do on my podcast is to help people who've never even been diagnosed and they might have friends or family members going through it and caregivers and people who were not in that position. So they really would know exactly what the person is going through and I want them to have the resources to be able to help out.

Speaker 1: 24:47

So this book will be perfect for when I put it on my website that I have up and running now. It's not quite finished, it's still under construction, but the donation button is working and a few other things have been put on there. We are working on a resource page where people can go and click on the category Like for this. It would be under books and podcasts, and so people would be able to click on that and see the link to your book, so to my audience, when that part is up and running. I mean this will be in the show notes, for sure for this podcast, but you can also go to the website teslasbreastorg and be able to find the link as well, if people are listening to this way down the line from now.

Speaker 1: 25:32

Let's see, today is June 3rd 2024. Okay, well, I just really appreciate that you two wrote this, because you really did write it in a way that it's easy to find things too, so like, for example, it does talk about how you met, what your cancer diagnosis was and and items things about your friends and family. So when you two were diagnosed, how did your friends and family react, catherine? How did everybody react?

Speaker 3: 26:04

My children were so available. They called me all the time. They were with me the whole journey. Now my sister, who is a CRNA she's a nurse, she was so sweet, she gave me this book about this big I mean, it was huge and she goes oh, I got you this book about cancer. Well, I was so overwhelmed I couldn't even look at that book and I said you're going to have to spoon feed me this book because I can't read it, because you are, you're overwhelmed and it's so much. I'm so grateful she did that because she wanted me to learn, but it taught me that when I go to other people I want to just do little bites, I don't want big bites, and I guess that helped.

Speaker 3: 26:45

Nancy and I just determined that we wanted a little book. I got a phone call last week from a friend who bought it for her friend who just found out she had cancer, and she said it was so easy to absorb, so easy that she devoured the entire book, but then she could go back and read like chapter one, chapter four, chapter six. It didn't have to be in order, but it just helped her develop a strong mindset to be able to go forward with her diagnosis, and I think that's what was so important with me and teaching my family, when they have friends that are going through cancer, how to help them have a strong mindset, how to be able to be ready. You know, when you do have tough days, how to be guarded with your thoughts. It's kind of like changing the channel.

Speaker 3: 27:39

This is another analogy, I know I just did this. Either it's like watching a channel on spiders and snakes. You get so creeped out that you're just you can't do anything, or you can get up, change the channel to the Hallmark channel, be at peace, and when you do that, the way I changed my channel was that in the waiting rooms I would go and meet other people. I was more concerned about those people than I was myself. Changing the channel, changing your mindset, and so that was one of the things I took away.

Speaker 1: 28:13

Yeah, I love that. Now you let your sister know that. How did she take that?

Speaker 3: 28:17

She was laughing, she thought it was great because there is so much to learn. Yeah, there is. Yeah, we've got a great relationship.

Speaker 1: 28:26

Well, you know, and I feel like people don't know what they don't know until they know right. And so until we tell them, until we experience it and we are able to educate them and that's one of the things I like to do on this podcast, too is use other people's stories to be able to educate them on things that they should or should not say, that or I shouldn't say I don't like to say it like that Some things that are not helpful and some things that are helpful. And so when we talked about how some people don't say anything at all, nancy, you were talking about that how you know, people don't know what to say, so they don't say anything at all, or they say way too much. I mean, you're like wait, that is not helpful. I always think that it's better to say gosh, nancy, I'm so sorry that you're going through this right now. I have no words to say that could possibly make you feel better or anything. I just want to let you know that I love you and I'm thinking about you and just know that I'm here for you. I mean, even just as simple as that can be really helpful, so that at least people know that you're thinking of them.

Speaker 1: 29:34

And I learned that lesson a long time ago, that when one of my friend's fathers died and she was pretty close to him, I didn't reach out, I don't know why. And I finally realized, oh my God, I better reach out. So I did and I came over, I brought her a little some flowers and a candle and sat down with her and I said I'm so sorry I didn't reach out and I should have said something. It was at that point that when things happened to my friends, whether they lost a parent or got sick or something, I knew that it's better for me to reach out and say wow, I'm so sorry, I don't know what to say Exactly, but I am here for you and I am thinking about you. Well, nancy, is there anything that you would like to add as far as how people reacted to your diagnosis and how people showed up for you?

Speaker 2: 30:29

I think reacting when we're going back to the children or stuff like that is kind of hard, because I think people hear cancer and they think you're going to die, and especially if you have chemo. Chemo, I think, bothered my children more than anything and it was just one path. I sure did not want to go down. You know, cancer gave me a little sucker punch but then chemo took me to my knees. So anyway, because I truly watch what I eat, what I do and the thought of that going through my body, I just like oh, but anyway. So yeah, I think it's important and I was just like.

Speaker 2: 31:02

My daughter lives out of town and one thing that she did that was really helpful for her. That was truly helpful for me was I would find notes everywhere. She had sticky notes in my computer drawer, in my Bible, in my underwear drawer, in the laundry, whatever door or drawer I was going to open. She would have some type of encouragement note and I kept every time I found. I still find them today. I don't know how she did that when she did that, but you know I've got them all stuck together and that was just. It brought a smile on your face. What can you do to bring a smile on your face, and that was very, very helpful. And it's like saying, my husband's a doctor and it's again being a nurse.

Speaker 2: 31:40

We still didn't know what we needed to know to get to the next step, except for reading. And, like Catherine's sister, I had a friend that was just dying to help. What can I do? I said you know she loves the computer. I said you go on the computer and find what I need to be doing during chemo. So she came back with a seven pages of notes and told me all this stuff I need to be doing and she's like I'm so glad you didn't read this blog because it could be very depressing. So I was like, oh, me too, because you don't have that time, you're trying to get everything out, all what you need to be doing, because you don't know what it's going to be like to go through chemo and are you going to be sick, tired or worried, Right? So yeah, I hope I answered that question. I don't know if I did.

Speaker 1: 32:17

You did. And I think it's really interesting because I had one of my former students. I taught her two daughters and she had breast cancer when I was teaching her daughters and I did reach out to her and I told her. I said I'm just so scared this is right ahead of my first chemo. And she said, jamie, what are you scared of? And I said I envision like this really awful monster going through my body just like smoke and like I'm scared of this monster. And she said well, one of the things I can tell you is I really wish that you have already gone through your first chemo treatment, because once you understand and once you know what it's like, it's not as scary even though it's terrible. We know this. It's just, your feet are sick. I lost my hair. I don't know about you ladies, but I lost my hair and you know your nails and your bloody nose and just it's gross, right. But she says once you get through that first one, you understand what to expect. And she says it makes it a little less scary. And she was right.

Speaker 1: 33:29

And I remember going through my first one and I was just it was terrible and all the things. But when the second one came along, and then the third, fourth and fifth one came along. I was like, okay, let's do this, let's get this done. Like I could, I can handle anything. But so when you were talking about you know, I'm glad you didn't read that blog One of my friends said, if I had to give you one piece of advice, don't Google stuff. Just don't Google it. There's a lot of scary stuff on there. You know. Just stick to the people who are caring for you and try to reach out to the breast cancer community so that you have other people who know what you're going through and you can get that support. So well, I really would like to know of this last question, catherine, what is a big piece of advice that you would give to someone who's never even been diagnosed?

Speaker 3: 34:28

All cancer is different, all treatment is different and the personality of the person having the cancer is different. There are no rules. Because one person handles it this way doesn't mean that's the way it has to be handled. One person may internalize everything and another person may tell the world and it's totally fine the different ways people handle it, nancy, and I emphasize that all the time that you do you, I do me, and it's totally fine for people to understand there's no rules about how you handle or accept or walk through that journey. That's just one thing that I think is truly helpful.

Speaker 3: 35:12

Another thing is we were made to have relationships, relationships with others and our relationship with our Heavenly Father. That's the two things that truly matter and when you're going through whatever adversity, it is cling to those things and that will give you the hope, the strength, the endurance to keep on that journey. We named our book Two by Two. Just like Jesus sent the disciples out two by two, nancy and I were sent two by two to go out and be the best friend to whoever else might be diagnosed with cancer, or their mother might be diagnosed with cancer, or their best friend or their aunt. Women just need women to be there for each other. I sat next to this man the other day and I was telling him about the book and he was in tears and he said I wish I had read your book when my wife was sick. I didn't know how to care for her, and so I just think relationships and being ready to love and hear and respect and to serve is so important.

Speaker 1: 36:17

I love how you just talked about how everyone deals with things differently. I know that a person looking from the outside in right, somebody who's never had breast cancer or any cancer for that matter they look at one person and say, man, she just powered right through that, she was positive all the time and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right, and why are you not that way? Why are you so down in the dumps and depressed and not being open about your story or whatever? So you're right, catherine, everyone deals with it differently and they get to, they're allowed to, and because sometimes we are very down and sometimes we're a lot more positive and I know that I inserted things that I really like to do during my treatment my husband and I made the decision that after every single chemo so I had it every three weeks during the third week I felt pretty good, felt okay. I got used to being bald, things like that.

Speaker 1: 37:18

So we would go camping and that was my happy place. We took the two dogs camping and it was always midweek because we were retired by that time and it was so nice because there wasn't a million people around. I remember just sitting in my camp chair and just thinking this is really wonderful and we would take pictures. And then I remember just sitting in my camp chair and just thinking this is really wonderful and we would take pictures, and then I would go back to my next treatment. So I mean, we just kind of go through these ups and downs and we as women need to support each other in that journey. So thank you for bringing that up.

Speaker 1: 37:50

And then also, clinging to what makes you happy and more positive and hopeful is just whatever that is. Make sure that you are clinging to that. And, nancy, what about you? Do you have any wonderful pieces of advice that you can give to people you know, regardless? How about let's start with people who've never been diagnosed? I always say I like for people to understand before they get diagnosed so that if they ever God forbid they ever are hit with that. But we do know that one in eight women get breast cancer, and so it's a really good possibility that people are going to get it at some point in their lifetime. People are going to get it at some point in their lifetime, and how do we make them feel better or more comfortable or just what to look for? What would you?

Speaker 2: 38:41

say Well, I always say the same thing. If y'all got questions, ask I'm happy to answer. And the same thing as being here in Houston. I was on the honorary chair because I would take people who'd come from Birmingham you know all different parts of the state would come and stay with us and I would take them down to MD Anderson and I didn't know exactly what they were going through. I knew they had cancer. I'd be there for them. Then, all of a sudden, when you get diagnosed with cancer, you can kind of understand emotionally and the stress that they're going through. But just, being your own advocate, just stay with those routine mammograms. Don't let that go. Even if you don't think cancer runs in your family, it's there by some other ways. We all have cancer cells. It's just whether they're going to divide or not. And just don't take the answer of anything. Ask questions because you are your own advocate and that would be to stay up on routine checkups.

Speaker 1: 39:34

Right, I love that piece of advice. Yeah, because most of us don't have it in our family. I think that it's like 25% or 70% of us don't even have it in our family and I didn't realize that most people that didn't have it in their family are the ones who get it. It's at some point, like you said, we all have cancer cells. It's a matter of that perfect storm, whether it be environmental or whatever, and you can be perfectly healthy and still get breast cancer. Who knew?

Speaker 1: 40:05

Anyway, well, ladies, you have been amazing. It's been really nice to collaborate with you and have this lovely conversation. I'm really excited that my friend Vicki reached out to me to introduce me to you, and I appreciate your writing this book. I can't wait to put it on my website to my audience. Remember, it will be in the show notes, and then I think you all have some social media handles in the show notes as well, and also some resources. Let me go down here and take a look at that, if I can find it. What resources do you have in the document that I sent to you that I can put into the show notes?

Speaker 3: 40:46

Well, we're on Amazon Barnes and Noble and our publishing company is Capen Publishing and you can email them for books as well.

Speaker 1: 40:58

Awesome. Okay, I am putting that right in the show notes right now so that I don't forget. And I just again want to thank you for your time, your inspiration, your knowledge and everything that it took to put this book together. I think it's absolutely beautiful. I love the artwork and I love the fact that you both have your talents, that you were able to put that book together. So thank you very much. Is there anything you would like to say before we wrap up, catherine?

Speaker 3: 41:30

Jamie, thank you so much for allowing us this opportunity. Just to you know. Let people know of another tool to use to either prepare or to put in their gift closet for when they know of a friend who will be diagnosed and be ready and armed with something when they get that. But I just thank you so much for allowing us to be here today.

Speaker 1: 41:53

You are so welcome. You ladies are really fun. Nancy, how about you?

Speaker 2: 41:57

I would say that I think with our world we have right now, if we can totally figure out a time to rest so that you can recover and when you recover you're renewed, and it can only take 10 minutes, 10 minutes a day somewhere, if you could just sit down, put your feet up and just rest. I feel like that's where I didn't have before. That I've put into my life now is I find some way to unplug, is take the watch off, is take the phone, put it up inside I don't know if I'm getting beeped or not and it can be 10 minutes, it could turn into 30. I don't know, it's just whatever I can do. Like Catherine said, turn it on the Hallmark channel is a happy place and turn the channel, exactly, turn that channel to get in your happy place. And again, thank you for giving us this opportunity to talk about it, because we love to talk about the book and talk about our friendship, which did, like you say, turn into a sisterhood.

Speaker 1: 42:48

Oh, absolutely, and I think that's such a great advice as far as unplugging, because one of my therapists told me one time that we're in the business of busyness here in the United States and we need to learn how to just have some me time and actually learn how to say no. It's so hard. Anyway, I am going to actually make one of your, I'm going to follow one of your recipes in here. I'm going to try to bring one camping we're going camping this weekend so I'm going to go through it and make a dish and then I'll let you guys know how it turns out. So again, thank you very much, catherine and Nancy, for telling your story. I think it's very inspirational and I love the book and I think that many people are going to love it.

Speaker 1: 43:37

From going forward and to my audience, thank you for joining us again on this episode of Test those Breasts and, as always, if you could, please rate and review on your favorite platform. It's very, very helpful and I appreciate it. So until next time. We will see you on the next episode of Test those Breasts. Bye for now, friends. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Test those Breasts. I hope you got some great much needed information that will help you with your journey. As always, I am open to guests to add value to my show, and I'm also open to being a guest on other podcasts where I can add value. So please reach out if you'd like to collaborate. My contact information is in the show notes and, as a reminder, rating, reviewing and sharing this podcast will truly help build a bigger audience all over the world. I thank you for your efforts. I look forward to sharing my next episode of test those breasts.