Energy Crue
Welcome to 'Energy Crüe', the podcast that dives deep into the heart of industry innovation, entrepreneurship, and personal growth. I'm your host, JP Warren, and each episode, we embark on a journey to uncover the passions and motivations that fuel industry leaders. We're not just talking business here; we're exploring the personal drives, the triumphs, and the challenges that shape today's pioneers. Alongside these inspiring conversations, I'll be sharing my own story - the battles with imposter syndrome, the pivotal mindset shifts, and the lessons learned throughout my entrepreneurial voyage. As a certified coach, my goal is to empower you, our listeners, to break free from the barriers holding you back. Join me as we navigate both the professional and personal landscapes, learning and growing together with 'Energy Crüe'
Energy Crue
Navigating the Energy Addition with Tucker Perkins
Embark with me, JP Warren, on a journey to the heart of the energy debate where we uncover the transformative role of propane and the intricacies of our global energy systems. This week, I'm joined by Tucker Parkitz, the seasoned President and CEO of the Propane Education Research Council and the voice behind the 'Path to Zero' podcast. Together, we navigate Tucker's personal evolution in the energy sector, inspired by his father's legacy, and uncover the powerful yet often overlooked implications of propane for global health, safety, and innovation.
Expect to gain unparalleled insight into the delicate balance between sustaining our planet, safeguarding our health, and ensuring energy remains economically accessible. We scrutinize the immediate health benefits of cutting NOx emissions, the underlying complexities of nuclear power debates, and the glittering promise of future technologies like fusion power. The dialogue pivots around the need for diverse energy solutions, the environmental nuances of electric vehicles, and the pivotal changes we can make today—transitioning to natural gas and propane for cleaner air and a healthier society.
As we peer into the future, the conversation turns to the dynamic energy grid, the varied potential of fuels like propane in agriculture, and the innovative pathways to a low-carbon footprint. We challenge common misconceptions, stressing the ongoing necessity of fossil fuels and the multifaceted nature of the energy transformation. My talk with Tucker not only illuminates the prospects of renewable propane but underscores the importance of educating both the young and old about energy's intricate dance with our environment—preparing them to critically engage with the energy solutions that will shape our world.
music and welcome everybody to a new energy crew podcast. I'm your host, jp Warren, and I'm pretty excited about this week's episode. Lately I've been doing a lot of personal episodes, kind of navigating through certain things, mindsets, based on kind of what. The sponsor of the show, which is EXETFUR, which is a mastermind development program community that we have that is aimed to elevate leaders, to focus on the holistic approaches to leadership, and I'm very excited today to bring our special guest on a, mr Tucker Parkitz, the president and CEO of the Propane Education Research Council and the head I'm sorry, the host of the Path to Zero podcast. I'm excited about this and, tucker, I'm gonna bring you on right now. I'm excited about this mainly because you never talking about this before. We kind of came on.
Speaker 1:I feel that when it comes to energy, the energy space and where we're at today, and all of a sudden we get a little background about you. But I love how your title is education. I think we are in a huge opportunity right now to educate people when it comes to energy realities, when it comes to the science behind energy and actual applications of energy sources. So I'm excited about our conversation today and I'm busy research on you. I listen to a couple of podcasts you have, but I'm gonna leave this open because I think there's so much to cover right now, but not just on your background, where you your path and career path, where you're at today, but also what you're doing today in the propane space and that's what you're trying to do to educate people out there. So why don't you kind of give us an introduction, elevator spiel and kind of your background, who you are and how you dove into a propane environment and what led you where you are today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks, jp, great to be with you, looking forward to it. You're not always much, rather talk about what we're doing and who I am, but I kind of get it.
Speaker 2:Let's get you a little do it yeah, no, I get it in the spirit of kind of where you are and where you come from, it's really important. So I am a native Virginian, kind of grew up in a family that kind of worked hard and my father was actually worked for a propane company as well. So a lot of people say how'd you get started in this? I said, to a degree I did what a lot of people do. I imitated my father for a while.
Speaker 1:So your second generation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, got an engineering degree but after college I didn't want to work. My father ran the company and I didn't really want to be the boss of son. So consulting engineer for a while, just so I understood how that part of the world thought and acted and worked. Then they found my way to a natural gas utility and I loved working there. We had pipelines and a distribution company. I was able to run an LNG facility. So today, as we talk about LNG something I was doing 30 years ago really and fascinating then, fascinating now, loved being outside kind of came to understand the value of pipelines. And still one part of that conversation today I don't understand.
Speaker 2:Pipelines, when properly designed and built and maintained, are clearly the safest way to move vast amounts of energy without anybody knowing about it. We would harvest the fields underneath their pipelines to maximize the wildlife's potential integral into the farming community. It was just so important. But eventually I found my way to a propane company. Pretty funny, my father retired, the new president came over and kind of offered me the perfect position for me at the time. So kind of somewhere along the line I got a master's in business and through a few other little twists and turns, found my way to this job, which I think the propane education and research council, which I'll call it PERC, from now on P-E-R-C. It's probably the most unique organization certainly I've ever worked for and probably one of the most unique I've ever been around Officially. We represent the propane industry in things like safety, marketing and innovation. We don't lobby. We don't really mess too much with rules or legislative standards. We leave that to others. I see you want to talk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was gonna say you say you represent the propane industry, I mean being the only gas space. I can name a couple basins that you can see the only gas space, everett. One of the texts is Haynesville, denver, wyoming, where's the propane industry? Kind of. What is that? What is the propane industry? A capitol.
Speaker 2:And I think when you talk about it at that level, we really then think about the midstream guys, people like Enterprise and Targa that run these big gas fields or in fact run the fractionators that come out of it. But what most people, probably outside of Houston, don't realize is that propane is generally one of the wetter things in a natural gas field and, frankly, have been one of the more profitable pieces of natural gas exploration and production. So when you find natural gas, it's not just natural gas right, there's some natural gas the leans. There's a lot of natural gas liquids, of which propane, butane and ethane would be the main three. And so propane is so widely used, not only in America but around the world and, for example, we're all over the world working in developed and developing nations and we use it far differently here than they do, say, in Japan. Japan's sophisticated uses for things like combined heat and power with propane.
Speaker 2:Using propane. We work at TAD in Africa where people today are cooking with coal or dung or wood and we could say four million lives a year by cleaning up their air.
Speaker 1:So that's the interesting thing we have. Have you heard of Chris Wright before with the Sea of Liberty Energy?
Speaker 2:Sure yeah, one of the best mouthpieces, I think, in the natural gas industry right for sure, I completely agree, completely agree.
Speaker 1:But I love his approach to it because what you're talking about, you know, when it comes to Africa, when they're fuel to cook, they're cooking fuel, it's you know, it's dumb, it's wood, it's stuff that kind of smokes up their homes and causes breathing problems. And that's been one of his missions is to supply this clean cooking fuel to these homes, to these developing countries to have this. So I love how you're just you're touching on that as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a. That's just a typical example of, I think, how people have no vision of how low carbon fuels like propane or natural gas can be so important to people's lives. I mean, there the numbers are pretty clear Four million people a year die from indoor air quality, and most of that I mean there's a whole nother story, jp, around empowerment of women. The whole story is unbelievable and it's really a proud moment for us as we think about developing better stoves, better technologies for Africa. But bringing that back to the US for a moment, and to your point, we clean up that natural gas.
Speaker 2:We produce the most propane of any country in the world, by far you're talking about. You know, you're got your various shale plays over here in the East. We got the Marcellus. Many of them are liquid rich. Many of them produce large amounts of propane. We extract that propane. We can store it and then use it. You know. Just put it in perspective 50 million homes have a gas grill. Five million homes rely on propane for their primary heat, give or take six, seven percent of all new homes built. So it's a natural fuel. When you're beyond the natural gas makes right.
Speaker 1:So what are some of the? I guess, when we're talking about today, in today's world and all that stuff, I mean, obviously you know your goal is to educate people. Your goal is to kind of provide people with information that they might have not occurred before, or make them understand the concept, or where do you see that we're at? I guess in the States or in this energy realm when it comes to the understanding of propane.
Speaker 2:I think most people have no idea where their energy comes from, how the cost of energy impacts their life, maybe even to a degree, which is something you know. A lot of the petroleum guys talk about all the time is how we talk about we got to get rid of fuels, but yet petroleum pervades every portion of our life. You know what we do in the hospitals, what we eat, and I think most people just don't understand that at all, and so that's a part of our conversation. I think that's such a daunting task and I'm not sure we're capable of educating the entire world about the importance. But we can talk to people about the importance of reliable energy, affordable energy, environmentally friendly energy, and I think that's where, to a degree again, you're sitting in Houston, so I'll talk a little bit about propane and natural gas as pretty part of that same family, and I think you know I'm quick to say fossil fuels are not all evil, right, they're not binary, they're not all bad, they're not all good.
Speaker 2:Certainly coal would be two examples I think are pretty difficult to be clean. Of course we can do it, but they're pretty difficult. Propane, natural gas really clean, low in carbon have renewable counterparts. Now that's a real story, but really we have the ability in those two fuels to change the lives and to have a quality life for billions of people around the world. As we think about I'm just heating our homes or taking care of our animals on the farm, or hot water or cooking, we can think about power generation and transportation and how we move ships. It's a crazy good story.
Speaker 1:You had a very interesting concept not a concept, but a discussion point about that, when you know I don't wanna get into climate change, I don't think I need to get into that, I don't really feel like getting into that. However, you brought it back to a certain point where it came to human flourishment, human safety. I think it was human, it was health and safety. That's kind of been your main focus. Yeah, can I talk to you about that a little bit?
Speaker 2:Well, I always talk about I try to talk about everything in threes, right, and I think it's funny. I gave a talk to the Department of Energy a couple of weeks ago and I was talking about affordability and one of the people came up after my talk and said appreciate you talking about affordability? You don't talk about it, we don't talk about it enough. I think to your point there, clearly affordability being good for the environment. They are tremendously important. But the third leg of that stool that we don't talk about much at all is good for our health and I'm quick to say I think how we impact our health, particularly through NOx emissions. Those are the emissions that harm everybody's lungs, give adult COPD or asthma, but for children bronchitis, asthma. And it's funny.
Speaker 2:I was giving a talk earlier today and I said we have a solution in front of us to almost immediately clear the skies of LA If we could move away from diesel fuel in so many of the vehicles that could be running on propane or natural gas for that matter the NOx emissions. In the propane case I know the engines by heart the NOx emissions are eliminated by 98%, maybe 99%. So we have an immediate opportunity to change health. To your point. I think talking about the environment without talking about our health it's irrelevant. And to talk about those two things without talking about the ability to afford the solutions is the last leg of that stool and they're just completely linked. You cannot delink any one of those three, I think.
Speaker 1:How do you? What is, I guess, some of the challenges? You're seeing what you're saying about the cars switching from diesel to propane it could save 98% of emissions. All these stats, what's been? I guess it seems like a no break. That's what I'm trying to say. Why has it been such a kind of, I guess, a pull through the fire to get people to understand the benefits of natural gas for propane?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a question that will plague me probably till the end of time. I mean, I think there are a couple of things at play. One, there are a lot of special interests and people sometimes even, I think, well-meaning people hook onto a vision that may or not be right or maybe changed a bit as they learn. There's a lot of money to be made or lost in some of these transitions, and so I don't really understand. I think the key point is the energy system is so complex that very few people want to understand it right. I mean, I'm a guy that fortunately, through my career, I found natural gas, transported natural gas, cleaned up, natural gas got it to the end users, whether it was a consumer or an industry. So I understand that. Then I moved into natural gas liquids. So you have to understand fractionation and transportation.
Speaker 2:It's taken me a decade, I think, to understand the electric utility industry, how we produce power, how we transport it, think about energy storage, and I don't think I mean certainly there are thousands of people smarter than me, but it's not a broad universe of people that understand all of these energy systems, how they're delivered, maybe where they have opportunities to become cleaner or less expensive, but it's critical. We have this raging debate in the country right now about nuclear power. I keep wondering sometimes why is that even a debate? If we all want power, we all want a nice standard of living and we want to grow our GDP, nations want to grow their GDP. You're just not going to ever get there, I think, without this clean base load of power that comes from nuclear power, and one day this conversation won't exist, because we'll have fission and then maybe excuse me fusion and the conversation's over. But that's a long way to go.
Speaker 1:We've got a long way to go.
Speaker 2:Long ways off.
Speaker 1:Okay. So you said you spent I've been a part of about a decade researching kind of the electricity market, how gas is, what are okay if we're doing a crash force right now for people listening out there that might be tuning in and to hear about a probate, what I guess would be a quick way to, I guess, shine the light on how electricity is generated, produced and, I guess, distributed.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the first thing is that people are read every day that my electric vehicle is emission free, and I think that's just so misdirected because I guess it is emission free when it sits at rest, but the minute you begin to drive it it's no longer emission free. And then you have to charge the batteries and what happens behind that? And again, volumes have been written about finding those rare minerals that go into batteries and producing batteries and all of that, but at the end of the day, I find few people think about generating electricity, what fuels you have to burn or use to generate electricity. What happens to electricity when you transmit it through power lines? How do you store electricity? And it's really complex. And then you live in Texas.
Speaker 2:I got my rude awakening, I think, at Winter Storm Urie, as you think about now, mixing intermittent sources like solar or wind with base load sources that come from coal or natural gas or nuclear, and it's just difficult for the operators to do, and so that's why I will often talk about a wide path and I don't really talk about an all of the above. Every now and then I hear a politician talk about all of the above and I recoil at that, because it's not all of the above. It's only those solutions that meet our requirements for affordability, for reliability, for environmentally friendly and for our health and that can mix into this existing system. So we love to talk about a wide path, a wide path to a cleaner climate by using a variety of things above ground that travel up and down the roads and then that run through pipelines, and I think that's the only way we'll get to a clean climate, but also a robust society.
Speaker 1:I think that's been a major, I guess, disconnect. When it comes to these conversations, it's all or nothing, it's black or white, and I find it very rarely that any answer in life is black or white, especially when it comes up as complex as it is, to energy.
Speaker 2:Right, and I'm gonna confuse it even more because I will say to you that what we thought to be true 20 years ago is not necessarily true today. And clearly, technology and you'll find, if you talk to me very long, at my heart I'm a technologist, I believe in technology, I believe in the ability to change things for the better, almost on a continuum that 25 or 30 years from now will be doing things much differently. And we're even doing them now and again. I say all the time parts of this. Batteries are certainly a key to the future. How we generate power we talked about nuclear power is different, clearly, to me. I believe the batteries of the future they're not even in the laboratories today, right, what we will rely on in 2050 or 2060, they're not even in our laboratories today.
Speaker 2:The pace of innovation is shocking, but to that point, I think we have to live in the today. And I find we're all so eager to find that shiny object right that we'll live our life today the way we've done it, because we're waiting for the shiny object to come along. And I think you say it a lot of ways, but I think the enemy of good is perfect, right, we wanna wait for perfect and we are consistently saying you don't have to wait, you can make major changes today that will benefit the climate, benefit your health, you'll be affordable, and part of that's in play as we think about vehicles moving from diesel fuel to natural gas and propane, partly as we think about power being moved from coal to solar and wind. So those are good examples of what we're doing. But to your original point. I think people believe that we can just have an emission-free power grid and that just probably doesn't exist outside of hope.
Speaker 1:Yes, so I kind of have a two-quets front. You just talked about kind of the change that we could make that could have the most impact right To a cleaner future. A cleaner today, a cleaner tomorrow what changes? And another thing that I want to ask so I don't forget, hopefully you remember I want to find out kind of throughout your history, kind of where we're at today when it comes to the energy discussion. Let's talk about the changes first. What changes are you talking about that could actually have a great impact, I guess, when it comes to affordability, reliability or grids, a cleaner future what changes do you see?
Speaker 2:Well, I think there are three areas for me that I see immediate results that could happen Is to move away from diesel fuel in transportation, in material handling and in power generation, where we have solutions that could be made up of natural gas or propane and, by the way, those solutions today could also come from renewable natural gas and renewable propane, so even lower carbon alternatives. But it would be so easy and I consistently say, if people would execute on the vision I have, the skies of LA would be clearer. The children of LA would be healthier because they're not subjected to those NOx emissions that are just inherent in a lot of these new engine technologies. And I fear, frankly, that everyone thinking that they could drive EVs is going to clear the skies. That would only be true if our power generation was clean.
Speaker 1:And also we weren't shipping in diesel, sitting on tankers in the bay right out there just floating around in diesel 60% of the electric grid today is comprised of power generation that comes from coal or natural gas.
Speaker 2:So right, so we're much better off to use those fuels directly, like natural gas or propane. So so we look for opportunities to to move from diesel fuel, which is inherently difficult to store, fairly expensive, fairly price, erratic. So all those are bad things. And now we have a chance to move to cleaner fuels that would virtually eliminate particulate matter, that's, our carcinogen, virtually eliminate NOx, which is bad for all of our lungs and plant health, and generally even more affordable. So it's not, it's a double benefit, right, it's a benefit.
Speaker 2:Triple benefit Actually benefits the climate, benefits our health and benefits people who are buying those goods and services from those trucks because their cost of fuel is left. I know in my case I've probably seen over 4000 price studies and by switching from diesel fuel to propane and media duty transportation, where we are, the operating cost per mile is cut in half every time, sometimes more, but every time cut in half. Just because the fuel is cheaper, it's very efficient, and so fleets like FedEx or UPS or Nestle waters, just that come to mind immediately. When they switch from diesel fuel to propane, they cut their operating cost in half.
Speaker 1:That's pretty good, that's a good idea to deliver packages to, to everyone's home. That's, that's extremely significant. Do you see, kind of are people kind of passing over the, the the benefit and availability of propane and natural gas to kind of jump in this electrification thing? I think?
Speaker 2:yeah, right now, I mean, the pendulum is swung a bit right. We're coming out of a period, for the last couple three years, where everyone believed that, you know, battery, electric vehicles were going to be the solution. And, by the way, that even stratifies a bit what's applicable to a, to a small car, say a two or three thousand pound car that you drive to and from the store. It's a materially different story for an 80,000 pound truck.
Speaker 2:That's right, yeah you know, 80,000 pounds of meat from New York to California. And for us in that medium duty space, you know we've we really cut our teeth in the school bus industry, right, and we have 23,000 school buses operating today on propane. There are 500,000 school buses, so we've got just a tiny fraction of them, but those 23,000 buses give us a great story to talk about emission savings, cost savings. In fact, if we could convert the rest of the bus fleet to propane, we'd save enough money and operating costs to put 23,000 new teachers in the classroom year after year after year, right? So gosh, that's a big, huge.
Speaker 2:It shows you how how beneficial some of these changes can be.
Speaker 1:And all your talk and all your discussions that you have them all these people about. I mean, listen, what you're telling me right now is kind of a no brainer. It's like, well, why aren't we switching faster? Why aren't these school buses, these medium range utility car vehicles switching faster? What OK is? That's actually a question I'm going to ask you. Why do you, why is there's just slow change to switch? I mean, it seems like the benefit is right there.
Speaker 2:Studying you a little bit, also know what you, what you stand for. It kind of gets back, to a degree, to human behavior, right, and I think consumers and homeowners act differently than fleet managers and professionals, right, people whose job is to make sure that the goods and packages you purchased arrive in the grocery store at home every day. They don't want to make a bad decision, right, they are. They are very comfortable to rely on their diesel fleet that they were relying on for 50 years, that they have trained mechanics for. They know where to buy it. They really struggle with all of that change, and so now we're just entering this period where there are plenty of their peers who have made the switch and you know they can share the stories.
Speaker 2:I would say I said earlier I'm a technologist. The pendulum is swinging a bit now. Where we used to use all diesel and we've been through a year or two or three where we only talked about battery, electric, now there are enough of those out there to begin to reveal what we knew from the beginning. Right, it may work for a passenger car if you just puddle around the neighborhood and you go to and from to see your kids every now and then, but it's not really applicable to people who are who are running 30, 40, 50 thousand pounds and have to be up 12 hours a day, 18 hours a day, and got to be ready to go tomorrow, same time, right. And so now that's where propane and natural gas have been so strong. I think let the pendulum swing a bit more in. Toyota led this conversation. Hybrids, the combination of elect, the best combinations of batteries and internal combustion.
Speaker 1:I don't know why they got so passed over. The hybrid's got so passed over in this whole debacle, yeah.
Speaker 2:And now you know Toyota, mr Toyota himself, Akita Toyota. He was kind of shamed to a degree because he said you know, that's the path that Toyota wants to take. And he was, I would say, publicly shamed for a while If he stepped down in his role as chairman of Toyota. But now the pendulum has come forward and now GM and Ford and Toyota and a bunch of places are saying that is the technology of the future for medium duty, heavy duty trucking. And I completely believe that, believed it five years ago when Mr Toyota said it, and so it's, it's in. And that's why I say you know, we're learning. Now we're learning to make these changes.
Speaker 2:I think it's really complex. By the way, don't forget the government regulations. Government incentives tend to, you know, influence us. The regulations around emissions haven't even for 2027, haven't really been clear to the engine community. God help us for 2030. What we really believe that'll be right.
Speaker 2:So it takes a long. It takes so long. It's so much uncertainty it tends to kind of freeze people in their current state until there's an air of certainty. To your point, I would. I would say you know there's also been a, I guess, a natural reluctance. Is climate change real? You know what are we going to do, and that's at the consumer level, and I think that that's an argument again. Perk hasn't really waited in, waited in, I think you know. For us, we kind of live near the Appalachian Mountains and there's a famous statement, so if you hike the Appalachian Trail you should take only pictures and leave only footprints. And I think you know, for us it's pretty evident that we would like to live in a world where we use less land, use less water, emit less emissions, and that's where we have been in our own research for decades, right, more fuel efficient engines or durable engines, and so that's.
Speaker 2:That's where we've been. It's just been the last decade or so that we really want to talk about the results of less emissions. For us, ten years ago, the results of less emissions were actually more fuel consumed, so it was lower cost to the end user.
Speaker 1:OK, ok the natural.
Speaker 2:The natural benefit of being more efficient is also having less emissions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, ok. So when you're talking, when you have this conversation, people I didn't know that, so you're involved in energy policy as well.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to. I'm going to walk sideways on that because, because we don't lobby right and so we, we really don't get involved with politics, we don't choose sides. If someone asked me my opinion, I might say to them I don't have an opinion on your policy, but I'm I'm quite clear as to how we want technology to go and how, how these technologies could involve to provide Clean climate, affordable solutions, better health, what's? How do you like that for a nice double speak?
Speaker 2:We're not actively involved in we're not actively involved in policy at all, but we are consistently talking about how you can use propane renewable propane, natural gas renewable natural gas to get to a cleaner climate and one that we can afford.
Speaker 1:And when you're talking to people and let's say you speak in threes, you said you say you like speaking in threes.
Speaker 2:What are some?
Speaker 1:like always did. All right, well, ok, speaking to threes, I would assume during your conversations there's probably three big misunderstandings that people have, three misconceptions, main misconceptions that that you might address a lot during your conversations with people, maybe your posts on LinkedIn or whatever it is. What are some top three things that you kind of always have the same discussions and then you like to get debunked? These, yeah, these, these beliefs that the false beliefs.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, that's almost a softball, because I think the first one is this narrative that we can electrify everything. I think that narrative is false. Okay, we just don't have enough electricity. If we had enough electricity, it's not in the right place, it's not of the right flavor, the way we use it. Sometimes we need to store energy. So the concept of electrifying everything, I believe, is inherently false. Okay, now will that be in 50 years, you know? Talk to me about battery storage. Talk to me about better smart systems. Talk to me about grids that can transmit two different flavors of electricity. Maybe that's okay. But right now to your point directly.
Speaker 2:The number one clearly we cannot electrify everything. That's a false premise, all right, I think number two would be that fossil fuels are evil, that fossil fuels are bad and again, as I said that already, but I think one we cannot live in a world without fossil fuels. Right, it's really difficult to mine, to to mine battery materials, to do heavy civil construction, to power ships and certainly, in the near term anyway, to make clothes, to make computers and plastics. You need fossil fuels. You live in a place that you know lives that every day. So I think the fact that we're going to rid ourselves. We're going to be in a fossil free world. That's again, patently false, right? It's just we don't have that ability.
Speaker 2:And I think the number three, if I had to say anything, is that this energy transformation that we're in. I don't talk about a transition, I really talk about a transformation. Yeah, it's going to be painful and slow. It's not a transition, it's a transformation. I see it every day. I look at Germany and I think I had a dinner last week in Washington and kind of started riffing a little bit on on Germany. But I think I never understand why more Americans don't look to Germany to see the results of decisions that were made years ago that are playing out today. But it's really difficult for Germany to compete right now. Their power costs are significantly higher. Think about what that does to their workers, right?
Speaker 1:When they work. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Manufacturing has become very vulnerable, but again because of elevated costs, maybe even less reliable energy. So this is we're not in an energy transition. This is a transformation and I don't think we should hide from it. Companies will rise, companies will fail, countries will rise and countries will fail and people will certainly lose jobs. Communities will blow away, communities will rise up. We just need to understand that is an inherent part of a transformation. It's not smooth and effortless. It's lumpy and bumpy and will be that way for a long time.
Speaker 1:I mean the fact that the fact that there's a lot of targets out there, matter of fact targets short and around the corner. I mean there are 20, 30 is around the corner, 20, 27 is around the corner. I completely agree. I think there is major lessons to learn right now when observing other countries when it comes to energy policy, whether I don't care what side of the fence you're on when it comes to energy policy. Again, I think it's so interesting.
Speaker 1:Again, this kind of comes in my next conversation piece of you, but it seems like energy is taking such a political limelight. It's like if you believe in fossil fuels or energy addition or whatever you want to call it, you're a hardcore this way. Or if you believe in electrification, you're this way. It seems like it's taking such a hot political center stage limelight and I don't think it should ask this political affiliation. Where do you see, I guess, the conversations and the conversation has always been intense when it comes to energy throughout the last couple of decades and you've seen you see it kind of boiling up when do you see the conversation? I mean it's just kind of like, hey, we're having to take conversations today that we had 30 years ago. Where do you see the conversations, I guess today when it comes to energy?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, you're easing into a whole civil conversation now, because I think for me, I wonder, it looks like all of us are less civil and we engage in less civility than perhaps we did decades ago. So I think to your question decade ago the energy industry was interested in two things reliable and affordable solutions. Right, I don't know that there was a big conversation around. Is it environmentally clean? Is it good for our health? Can we provide it in reliable quantities and at a cost that will move society forward? I think rightfully so. Now we bring in that third leg of the stool, environmental solutions, and, by the way, they're all subsets of that. Is it good for our energy security? I mean, I think that's where Germany started down the path.
Speaker 2:I could have told you then that importing Russian natural gas was going to be bad for Germany, could not have possibly scripted it the way it worked out, but I knew then that was a bad move, right? Look at France. France made a wholesale commitment to nuclear power. Find themselves in a much different position today. But to your point and I don't know, I don't have the answer here, but I find that we're less civil in our discourse. I mean, we tend to be polarized and polarizing, and I think this is a great example where having there isn't there isn't a solution. That's on either one of those extremes right. The solutions are in the middle. And, by the way, the solutions are also ever changing. The move is ever changing. That's why I tend to find safer ground by talking about technology and how technology is lovely to be, you know, be given a decent engineering degree and be able to at least fall back to that Because I find that these solutions are going to be moving, moving us forward in ways that we never thought we can. I tell the story all the time. We've been in a partnership with Cummins for nearly a decade, and when we started that partnership over a decade ago, where we thought we might go with a propane engine, I remember coming home and saying to my friends and family that the meeting, you know we may have changed combustion forever, fast forward to now, and that engine still not ready for the market, but it's, you know, poking its way through the many channels that has to go. We've exceeded everything we said we could do with that engine in terms of fuel efficiency and durability, and I love to say modern engineering married modern production management and what we can do with those, with that marriage is unbelievable today, and so we're going to see that continuum keep going right. We're going to keep learning how to make better engines, but also better batteries, how to do things with you know materials that that matter less, but along the way it's.
Speaker 2:It's a tough transformation, and I do. I do wish we could have a more civil discourse. You know we don't. We can't even have a civil discourse about. Is climate change real or not? Right, you either are for it or against it, and it's an interesting conversation to me and one that I patently refuse to engage in. Right To agree. Right, I want to be that Appalachian trail, taking only pictures, leaving only footprints. I want more efficient engines because they're cheaper to operate, they're better and, along the way, if they're more efficient and better for the environment, I'll take it 100 percent and it seems like you know it's interesting, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:I feel like it doesn't matter who you talk to if they're in an energy space, whether it's, you know, hydrocarbons, whether it's renewables, whether you know solar, whether it's battery, it doesn't matter who you talk to in energy space, people understand the concept of energy. It seems like. It seems like no one has this black or white mentality or this polarizing mentality of like, oh, we need all this. We know that there seems to be an understanding that in today's world, you need a little bit of everything. You need hydrocarbons, you need renewables, you need batteries, you need all this, all these different things. It just seems that the again with the people with the biggest loudspeakers are very the polarizing ones, and that just brings everyone to that, versus sitting in the middle and listening to both sides. I think it's extremely important to solve a lot of those.
Speaker 2:And I do think to that point. Some of the loudest voices in the room are often the ones that are probably at least full of the correct information as well, and I think it's really troubling to me that some of the loudest voices are moving to a place that I don't really believe is good for economy, good for our people, good, good. I don't think they're good decisions, and that's one reason I'm glad you call out Chris Wright. Toby Rice comes to mind. Oh, the natural gas industry has just a few people who are out talking about it often, and I'm always thankful for their voices because I think it's it's easy to be vilified when you're out, kind of having that view that natural gas and natural gas liquids like propane are a part of the solution. By the way, we haven't even opened the door yet to the, to the ultimate end game for us, which is renewable fuels and blends of renewable fuels. And it's amazing what you know, I tell the story often.
Speaker 2:I was in California a decade ago and I'd given them my best talk about how propane really was a solution for the ports and cleaning up the basins of California. You could clean up the air immediately and they said what's your path to zero emissions. Where do you have a renewable fuels? And I said I'm sorry you don't listen to what I said. I've just given you these perfect solutions today with conventional propane, we don't need renewable fuels.
Speaker 2:And they said without, without a path to zero, you won't be a part of our energy solutions going forward. I took that to heart, frankly, went back and I think now, a decade later, you know now you have marathon producing renewable propane in California, you have Chevron making great quantities of renewable propane serving into California, now on into Washington state, and that that's just one pathway. We're we're working on another dozen pathways that come from waste CO2, wasted methane, wasted plastics, all kinds of ways that we're able to turn those waste materials into fresh energy. And it's, it's thrilling where I think the industry will literally literally end up 2035, 2040 and beyond.
Speaker 1:Well, it's okay. That's the perfect way to upset. Oh good, kind of segue. A little rapid question. You know you love technology. You're talking about technology A lot of you talk about what it looks like in the future. I love how your mind stays up there and kind of the potential on where we can go. What technology have you seen, that kind of that you see in the last four or five years and really excites you and talk to me about the future. What do you? What's your? Where do you see the vision for the future? I know there, I know we don't have the answer. The technology might not be here, but what do you imagine? I guess that looks like.
Speaker 2:Well, I definitely think you know, in the final analysis, nuclear fusion is the game changer. When we can do that and when and if we can do that, that's the game changer. That's clean, stable, low-carbon, zero-carbon electricity and then we can live in a world and because then perhaps we could even make it more decentralized, right. But until that point we're going to live in a mix, where we rely I love to talk about the three dimensional energy grid right, we're going to rely on electricity that's transmitted in wires up overhead and we're going to live in with that electric world. We're also going to transmit low carbon fuels through trucks and rail cars up and down our railroads and highways, and we're going to rely on a lot of fuels that come in underground pipes. And until we actually are using each of those dimensions below the ground, across the ground and up in the sky, I don't think we'll get to the, to the optimum choice of energy. And, by the way, that optimum choice gives us affordable energy, available and reliable they're very much the same thing and then environmentally friendly. So I think, to answer your question directly, you're going to see a continued reliance on electric power. That's inevitable.
Speaker 2:I think You're going to see this transformation and transportation from just relying on diesel and gasoline to now we'll have a mix of battery vehicles, hydrogen vehicles probably in some unique cases, but still propane, natural gas vehicles. I think we'll see that. But don't forget where so many people don't really have access to reliable right your grid, reliable pipelines, and I think that's where back to how we started this conversation, in the developing nations. That's where we see fuels like propane play such a great opportunity. The farmers of America can tell you today how they rely on propane to dry their grain, to heat, you know, provide heat for their animals, to have hot water so we can have clean food. We love that clean food story as we even think about using heat instead of pesticides and herbicides on our food. But it takes, as you, as I've just kind of laid out that story, it takes a host of fuels to execute that menu of needs.
Speaker 1:So you're running how you're running parks right, You're involved there.
Speaker 2:So when you're running me. I'm not sure which, but same thing.
Speaker 1:So how do I guess? My question is is this something that people get involved in? Are you looking, I mean, for people to contact, maybe learn some more? Information is supporting me. How could people, I guess, contact you or learn a little bit more? Or if they want to follow up with you, how could people, I guess, contact?
Speaker 2:Well, certainly we won't. We won't be able to be involved in this conversation. We love propane users talking to us about how they use it, how they wish they could use it, or you know prospective users. Today I was with a bunch of people who who think about commercial power in a completely different way, and we're talking about how they can use propane in ways that they had never thought about it. So we have a website. The website's called propanecom. It's a great place to go to engage in many ways. Right, you can learn about how propane is used at the home, at work, on the farm. You can also learn a lot about this environmental conversation that you and I've been talking about today. You can learn about it at a 30,000 foot level. You can learn about it like a PhD would love to read some of the white papers. You can kind of pick and choose the level you want to engage, if you like what you see or you had questions, and there are plenty ways to reach us through that website.
Speaker 2:Propanecom. I got I got my own podcast. I'm proud of it. It's called Path of Zero and it's really a great. It's not necessarily a pro propane podcast, right, it's about the energy transformation and gives people a chance to learn more about carbon and carbon capture carbon storage. Today I'm reading about. The oceans are significantly hotter than we ever thought, and I think it's a good indicator that we just don't understand yet so many things about what's going on. So some of my favorite guests were talking about carbon and the impact of clouds and the oceans, and so it's a great place to go and learn as well. You can actually access that podcast through where you find your podcast, and you can access it at Path of Zero. I mean, excuse me, the podcast is Path of Zero. You can find the podcast on our propanecom website too.
Speaker 1:So you kind of take all these topics that you know people read on the headlines, you know carbon net zero mission you can't see five into those in those subjects with different guests.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's been. It's really helpful. You know, part of my real job at PERC every day is thinking about how what technology needs to survive in a decade or two decades, and really you know what are the competing forms of energy going to be. How will propane fit? How should propane fit? Do we need to be all renewable propane? And it's a daunting job and we're fortunate to have a great team of people around us, because what we're trying to think about is how partnerships like we are in with Cummins or Kohler or John Deere you know what does the farm of the future look like and how does propane play into that, and what does the home of the future look like and how do we work with builders, architects and engineers to execute that vision. So that's one reason we're so engaged in this conversation. We're having to think, you know, as Gretzky said, I guess, to where the puck's going to be in 20 years, because a lot of the technology that you and I are dreaming about today, it could easily be a decade before it becomes real.
Speaker 1:Do you see that propane gets its due respect when it comes to the energy discussion?
Speaker 2:Yes, I do, and again, we'll never be all things to all people. We've never indicated that we would. But how we serve the farm, how we serve businesses beyond natural gas mains, how we serve businesses that have a fragile grid, how we serve the developing nations and, you know, the island nations below us, and we were so relevant today in places like the Virgin Islands and Honduras and all that. So, yeah, I do. I definitely think that people will understand the value of low carbon fuels and their renewable twins that come together. Yes, and, by the way, I think a lot of companies today get it. Ups gets it, a thousand school bus fleets across the country get it. You know power generation companies like Kohler and Renai that makes water heating, they certainly get it, and so it's an exciting time for us.
Speaker 1:That is exciting. So where are you going to leave us with? We've been talking about 47 minutes. Where are you going to? Where do you want to wrap this up? How do you want? How do you want to do this? What do you have any final?
Speaker 2:messages to the audience. You and I haven't talked about anything that I thought we would talk about today, so it's always interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, it looks like we have to do a round two then.
Speaker 2:Well, no, we might have to do that, but I do think I always encourage people to engage in this conversation and to really be their own voice and be their own brain and think about it themselves and think about how this impacts themselves, because they will be the recipients of the electricity system they have, that they're delivered right, and they'll have to afford that, and they need to think about how we get to a cleaner climate, a one we can afford and one that actually benefits our health. It's a daunting conversation, but keep your ears open and listen. I think you know all of us can be major contributors to that conversation.
Speaker 1:I mean it's a lot to learn and it is daunting. It does feel daunting if you go into it without any guidance or without any idea where to start. But I think you know I'm talking to my buddy, mike Umbrough, out in California. He's the one that actually turned me on to the electricity generation, kind of like hey, price is going up, and this is why he kind of showed me their website on the electricity what compiled their electricity. Then I went over to Texas, new York, to New England's how it's just. It's very interesting to see where electricity comes from. I think that'd be a great start for people who want to start learning about the energy space, understand where they are electricity, what makes that, what their energy mix is.
Speaker 2:And for me and I study that every day it's shocking to me how much of the electric grid in the United States still comes from coal Makes sense. Coal is easy to store, it's inexpensive, it's the fuel. You know that's been kind of the dominant fuel, but you travel in places like Wyoming. 75% of their coal I mean energy comes from coal. West Virginia, maybe you think, kentucky, same thing. It's amazing how much of this grid so. So to that extent, people who drive electric cars are relying more and more on electric to provide things for their home. They're like look at me and what I'm doing for the environment. I'm like I'm not sure. Right, you need you know if you're using more coal based power, you're really not helping the environment. I love that you drive an electric car and I'm proud that. You think it's fun to drive and has a cool, you know computer there and that's awesome.
Speaker 1:I don't take anything.
Speaker 2:But don't tell me you're doing it for the environment, right, because it's not zero emission. And if you're really intellectually complete about where that energy came from, what it took to get it to charge the batteries in your car, you may or may not have done a good thing for the environment, depending on where you live. By the way, they're great stories. Washington state lots of hydro power works well. Vermont great hydro power, I think. Sadly, I don't think we're going to build a lot more dams in this country, right? Hydroelectric power is probably about maxed out.
Speaker 1:What about geothermal? Where you seeing on that, on that forefront?
Speaker 2:I mean, geothermal is inherently complex. Geothermal makes sense, but it's just inherently complex and expensive and so I don't think you're going to see it. I mean, again, if we were talking about Finland or Greenland, it's a completely different conversation. And I think that's the last piece of this complexity is what works in Phoenix, arizona, or San Antonio, texas, may or may not work in Portland, maine, or you know, walla, walla, washington or whatever, right, so you know there's going to be again this mix of systems that work for what how you make energy and how you use energy and because people, that's very different systems around the globe.
Speaker 1:How do you handle, I guess, talking, all these, I guess, different groups? I mean you're not only talking, you know lunches and all that stuff, people you know, you see in your area. Are you reaching out? I mean I'm assuming you're doing school stuff too. I mean I'm sure you have some outreach for younger kids, because what you're talking about is so important and I guess you're doing. You're educating in the first place. You're educating adults, so are you educating kids too?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, and again, you know, talking to children is really, I'll say, complex sometimes, because I want to make sure that we're not just giving the children our point of view, but that we're allowing them to kind of think through using science or math or technology, classic STEM techniques. They were giving them a chance to think through solutions, but clearly they are important in this. I don't ever want to think about using children as a tool to make my point.
Speaker 2:I think that's something that I would tend to run away from, but we are trying to actually have a more truthful conversation and, again, I think that's one of the beautiful parts about our conversation. We're quick to say renewable propane is a part of the solution. It's not the solution, it's not the only solution, it's just a part of the solution. In fact, the solution is part many different contributors. That's what makes the solution. And I'm quick to again to say, while I talk about propane today, I would assume my, the person that does this job, 50 years from now will only talk about renewable propane, and between now and then we'll talk about 1% solutions and then 25% blends and eventually 100% blends. So I talk about this continuum of change, but I'm excited. I do think this, I think it's real. I think these efficient solutions that are durable and affordable are real, that renewable fuels are real and that we can do something about capturing carbon, that we can do something about delivering these solutions that clean the climate up.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to wrap it up. I love how what you're saying when it comes to change and get to give it its due respect, you first off get to invest in technology, because that's a crucial part to get there, but also you brought up a great point too it's like you got to respect the time you got to spend money in front of you, because change does not happen overnight. And also I love the fact that you talked about the mix is not just one-on-one, it's not one answer that's going to solve the energy situation that we're faced with today. It's a mix of everything. I think that's such a great message to have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in country speak we say it's no silver bullet, it's only silver buckshot. Right, that's many solutions and I wonder how many people really understand that analogy. But I think that's it and I do? I am going to say you have made the point yourself we're trying to undo 125 years of infrastructure, whether it was petroleum, coal, oil, electricity. We're trying to undo 125 years of infrastructure in a very short order. Speaking of a daunting task, yes, 100% daunting task.
Speaker 1:But again, I think it's going to take a lot more communication, a lot more less camp mindset, less camp tribe communication, more kind of just being in the middle and talking about the realities and hey, we're all dealing with this together and we'll all need energy, Electricity. Let's attack this together. So I dig it Awesome.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Jp has been awesome today, thank you.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you Honestly. If we didn't touch anything, my bad, but I'll tell you what next time I'm going to do it around too. I'm digging this. I like this conversation.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's good, I'm your man, I'm up for it, I dig it man.
Speaker 1:So, all right, well, I appreciate everyone. Again, I want to thank Tucker Perkins out there, the president and CEO of Perks, which is propane education and research council. Also check out his podcast, the Path to Zero podcast, where he brings in different guests to talk about current events, our headlines that you probably want to understand when it comes to the environmental impact, when it comes to energy, when it comes to carbon, when it comes to the path to zero. So, tucker, appreciate it and I want you to have a great, great rest of the week. Thank you all out there for tuning in to Energy Crew Podcast and we'll talk to you all soon, thank you.