Energy Crue
Welcome to 'Energy Crüe', the podcast that dives deep into the heart of industry innovation, entrepreneurship, and personal growth. I'm your host, JP Warren, and each episode, we embark on a journey to uncover the passions and motivations that fuel industry leaders. We're not just talking business here; we're exploring the personal drives, the triumphs, and the challenges that shape today's pioneers. Alongside these inspiring conversations, I'll be sharing my own story - the battles with imposter syndrome, the pivotal mindset shifts, and the lessons learned throughout my entrepreneurial voyage. As a certified coach, my goal is to empower you, our listeners, to break free from the barriers holding you back. Join me as we navigate both the professional and personal landscapes, learning and growing together with 'Energy Crüe'
Energy Crue
From Oilfields to Orbit: Caroline Ellis on the Thrills of Space Exploration and Engineering
Prepare for a cosmic ride alongside Caroline Ellis, our deep space systems engineer, as we chart the parallels between the energy industry and the vastness of space exploration. Her transition from oilfields to the stars epitomizes the power of seeking knowledge and choosing one's path, a theme echoed throughout our conversation. As we share tales from the Crew Club events, Caroline's insights reveal that the challenges and triumphs of space missions are not just captivating stories; they're part of our constant quest for discovery and the very evolution of our careers.
Unlock the secrets of space with Caroline's behind-the-scenes look at the life of a NASA flight controller and the monumental successes, like the OSIRIS-REx mission. The episode peels back the layers of complex space missions, from the rigorous technological planning to the emotional zenith of witnessing a project's success. Caroline's humor shines through as she debunks space myths perpetuated by Hollywood, while emphasizing the intricate reality of space travel and the meticulous work that goes into it.
In this journey from South Texas to the outer reaches of our solar system, we underscore the significance of clear communication, teamwork, and leadership in navigating challenging environments—skills that are invaluable in any high-stakes industry. Caroline's fascination with Saturn, her playful defiance in declaring Pluto a planet, and her candid thoughts on extraterrestrial life, underscore the infectious passion that drives STEM professionals. As the episode wraps up, we invite you to be part of this inspirational dialogue, reminding us all of the shared knowledge and wonders that lie in the final frontier.
I. I mean that just brings us to a great kickoff, to a great conversation.
Speaker 2:Isn't that?
Speaker 1:right, caroline it is. I want to welcome everyone here to Energy Crew Podcast. I'm so excited to do this. I mean, I've taken kind of about a two, three-week break on this just because I've been really focused on building out a crew club, our E&P operator focused network event. And actually this is kind of a great segue into having you on the podcast right now, because it was from one of those topic series events where my friend, your husband, justin Kilb, led a great, great fascinating discussion on AI, that's, artificial intelligence for those that are living in 1999.
Speaker 1:On AI that's artificial intelligence for those that are living in 1999, ai in the oil field and today's uses in tomorrow's potentials. And it was a fascinating conversation. And again, that's why I kind of take it a step away from the podcast realm in this space, just because I've been focused on building out Crew Club, making it a place where E&P operators and this is a plug, a plug emp operators can go and have career enhancement, um events, career enhancement opportunities to expand their career and network on a genuine level. And uh, we had again going back, we were in denver, I think it was hold on. Let me think on it, I think it was like february something yeah yeah, it was february, no january something, february, it was febru, february something.
Speaker 1:And your husband, who you know, obviously, justin, who is a brilliant, brilliant person, only to be shadowed by you at the table. And I was so happy for you to join us because it was a table just kind of set up. It was a table of pretty much all you know, people in the energy, space and the oil and gas space, you know, which I thought was so cool. And then you were there, just a regular space engineer, that's that's. That's something for the uh, for the undergrads. You're a deep space engineer and it was such a cool conversation, like having you at the table, having you kind of like chime in, kind of like absorb some information we're talking about, also like chime in, and kind of show some comparisons, contrast between our two industries, and I was like we got to get you on.
Speaker 1:I love talking you. I love uh kind of uh, your thoughts and your insights and kind of just how you kind of articulate what you do and, I guess, the passion behind. So I'm going to stop talking. I want to have you introduce yourself because I can keep around again my third cup of coffee. So, hey, can you introduce yourself real quick for everyone out there tuning in right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. I'm Caroline Ellis and currently work as a deep space systems engineer. Gotten the chance to work with humans a little bit before that as well human space flight and just very excited to be on the podcast today. So thanks for having me. Have you ever done a podcast before? No, it's my first time. Can you tell?
Speaker 1:I don't know, can you tell? I feel like it's my first time sometimes. So okay, I guess let's start off. Let's get a little background about yourself. What brought you into, I guess, pursuing such a fascinating field and question is it that fascinating the way it sounds to people on the outside?
Speaker 2:I'll answer your second question first, which is yes, yes, totally.
Speaker 2:There's just so many cool things about the jobs that I've gotten to have and what I currently do day to day.
Speaker 2:But I guess, yeah, kind of going back to my origin story a little bit, so I'm from Corpus Christi, texas, so I grew up in South Texas and actually a lot of my family works in oil and gas, so I grew up very much surrounded by that.
Speaker 2:I consider it to be a little bit my blood and I have this kind of one of those core memories from when you're super young of my dad and my grandpa drilling a well and being out on site, getting the logs rolling in late at night and, you know, calling my mom and kind of saying how things were looking. And there's just this general sense of excitement in the air of you know, what are they going to find? Is it going to be what they hoped of? You know what are they going to find? Is it going to be what they hoped? So I think that passion for exploration and excitement surrounding what you might find, whether it be drilling into the earth or going out into space, I think that was kind of a big part of growing up and what I was surrounded by, so fast forward to college.
Speaker 2:I ended up at Colorado School of Mines and actually started as a geology major funny enough, yeah, I think, you know, was really influenced and inspired by my family around me and the exposure I'd had at that point. And, frankly, I took my Earth 101 class, my first course, kind of on the geology path, and realized that, you know, I think my interests are maybe not so much specific to, uh, to geology and specifically to earth processes, but I think the bigger exploration theme and the, the um, I guess the bigger processes at work that shape not only the earth but also everything around us and everything.
Speaker 1:so what was that like? I guess? I mean, so you go to colorado school of mines uh, fantastic university, a lot of great graduates from there and, um, well, so I guess, when did that? I guess because I feel like a lot of people when they pursue, like when they start pursuing like their uh, their engineering degree or something like that geology degree, whatever it is, it's like, um, they dive in and they and they wait several years before they make a decision to change, or it's like I'm in this college, it's too difficult for me to kind of switch majors. What was that process for you? I guess, kind of when you were in there and you made the decision like, listen, I kind of like this, but did it just geology, did not? I guess, light that spark in you.
Speaker 2:Like what caused the change, a discovery of what I? I had a lot of interest in terms of, uh, picking up a book or reading something, reading an article, um, watching a show, something that an interest that was limited more to that scope, I think and you know, obviously my husband works in the space, my family does. Having those conversations with them is really interesting, but I found that once I, once I was the person sitting in the chair, um, learning about it at that deeper level, it just it didn't captivate me as much as what I later realized was maybe the bigger interest in driving piece of that, which was the exploration and the desire to know things at their most fundamental level. I think. So, you know, I think a theme that I still remind myself of, like daily, multiple times a day, is just the concept of choosing your challenge.
Speaker 2:I think every decision we make in life, or don't make in life, comes with its own set of difficulties, hurdles, things that make it not as smooth as maybe we idealize or want it to be. But getting to be the active person in your life, choosing that want to pursue a path despite all the challenges that it's going to bring, because once you can peel back that away. Peel that back away, at least I found, is you can remove sort of the the fear of of what difficulties may come and really focus in on what actually interests you and what thing is worth going through those difficulties to pursue.
Speaker 1:Well, I kind of want to not to interrupt, but I kind of want to pause on this and kind of dive into this a little bit more, because part of me, one of the things that I'm interested in right now, recently, is not just, you know, besides the energy and besides people's career paths and all that stuff it's it is the concept of whether it's challenging, facing a challenge, controlling what you control, not worrying about the rest. And talk to me a little bit more about this whole choosing your challenge and kind of the process behind that for anyone out there, because I'm curious about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know and I can't even really tell you where exactly this, what influenced me to think about this, or you know where I may have first heard it. It's just something that's kind of developed through the choices that I've made, not only in career but just in life, but I think it's just an acknowledgement of that. Any well, first of all, anything worth pursuing is is going to be hard. Anything that is really going to light the spark for you, that is going to make your really bring about a purpose for what you're working on, is not going to be an easy walk in the park.
Speaker 1:Doesn't that suck? Don't you wish it was, though sometimes Absolutely, and it's, it's.
Speaker 2:I think it's sort of a acceptance, is maybe an interesting word, but sort of a realization that just that that is the way that things go in life and you but. The beauty of it is that you have an active role in choosing what it?
Speaker 2:is that you get to pick and um and realizing that, even though it's going to bring about hard things and difficulties and challenges that you have to overcome, any path you choose is going to do that, and if you don't choose to do something, that brings about its own entire separate list of challenges. So you know, I I think about this even when it's like, hey, should I? I really don't want to go to the gym today or I really don't want to go for that run. You know, I can either go through the pain of a 30 minute workout, which isn't always comfortable, or I can choose comfort right now and say you know what, I'm just not going to do it. But then, who knows, ultimately maybe suffer the hardship of health related problems that potentially couldn't have come about if I had chosen exercise yeah.
Speaker 1:No again. I love how the, the, the, the. Choosing the conflict to face the conflict now might be a little bit uncomfortable, but there's the potential of the best rewards versus postponing comfort and dealing with the potential future consequences which probably are compounded by them.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, absolutely, and it's just yeah. The acknowledgement of choice, or lack thereof, will bring about things you have to overcome, but that's what's exciting is that you get to choose what those are, and when you realize that everything is going to come with its own set of difficulties and challenges, you can strip that back a little bit and say, okay, but this is actually what interests me the most and this is what challenges are going to be worth dealing with.
Speaker 1:So talk about you choosing the challenge of space. I mean I love how you started the conversation. You're talking about earth. You know, earth, earth, earth. You're like I've never had a conversation where people bring up earth so much. But tell me about, like, how did you separate from literally glow ground to above the stratosphere? I mean that's such a unique separation of choosing your challenge. Talk about that.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the path actually flows.
Speaker 2:It wasn't direct from geology and earth processes to space.
Speaker 2:So my degree was in engineering physics and I think realizing, you know, kind of like I was saying earlier, that maybe the specifics of how it applied to geology wasn't the exact manifestation of my interest that I wanted to pursue, but recognizing that the bigger processes that do influence things like geology, influence the way our earth is formed, that was what I was really after.
Speaker 2:That was kind of the root of my, my interests overall. And then I, you know, was fortunate to have some really great mentors at Mines and some great exposure that led me to think, well, hey, I could, I could just do physics and see, see this a little bit broader scope and at the you know, maybe the more fundamental level that I find most interesting. So that was kind of how I morphed from a degree perspective out of geology to engineering physics and then through the physics department, I think similarly along those lines, just to be clear, this is a very big theme in both space exploration and Earth exploration, in the form of energy or otherwise, is that discovery piece, and they're both so important and so worthwhile for helping us understand where we come from as a species, where everything around us comes from and how it formed. So I think part of my degree I was influenced and was exposed to a number of people who had careers in this area and that kind of lit a spark that I think had already been there.
Speaker 1:I just didn't know exactly where the direction was heading. So OK, so All right. So was it the people, or was it the subject that brought you in the space?
Speaker 2:I mean I think, if I think the people are integral to it. Um, but the subject itself, I think, was so, just so captivating, I mean I find that I I can align with that.
Speaker 1:I think it's one of those things where it's like you know, the only gas space, for example, like it's the it's if you're around good people in a good community and people that are that do want to challenge you and that do push you to learn and kind of get out of your comfort zone. I think that's such a great. I mean, if you combine that and your career, I think that's such a beautiful kind of combination of everything, because not only are you pursuing your interests, but you also have a support group around you that kind of wants you to grow and achieve and learn more.
Speaker 2:You're so right. I couldn't agree more. I see that every day in my career.
Speaker 1:What did you say?
Speaker 2:I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1:I'm so, right, I want that as my sabbath. Talk about this Again, walking through your career, walking through your LinkedIn. Then I want to get into if we can talk about the missions Obviously not too much depth Talk about your first day. You have uh, uh, the, the, uh. If we can talk about the missions, uh, obviously not too much depth, but to uh kind of so talk about your, I guess your first day on kind of so. You have the people. You have the people around you supporting you, the mentorship I guess, talking to you about space exploration, all that, um, talk to me about, I guess, your first day, uh, walking in and kind of what was that like and and what's? What was that like and what's changed from the?
Speaker 2:first day till now, besides responsibilities? Oh man, that's a great question. I think my first day was just. I mean, obviously anybody who's started a new job can relate to just feeling totally overwhelmed and a little out of your depth and it's just.
Speaker 2:It's one of the most uncomfortable experiences you know, just walking through the place and trying to make sure you're making the right impressions and all that. But all of that aside, I, I the. The piece I remember the most was just awe and this feeling of like, am I really here right now? And I guess, specifically, I felt this in both workplaces. But my very first career was at Johnson Space Center, the NASA facility in Houston, and so walking in those halls for the first day was like holy cow. I bet Neil Armstrong, neil Armstrong walked, he'd walk over there at one point, or you know just, you're surrounded by this rich history and a real, really culture and tradition at this point. That's, that's worked over many years. So I think it was a mix of, obviously, stress and nerves, but also just awe and a little bit of like pinch me, it's me, it's just really where I'm getting to work right now.
Speaker 1:And what was that environment at? Was it very welcoming or is it very kind of like mentorship, like hey, come here, you're new here, let me, let me walk you through this. I mean definitely like just learn. Learn as you go along.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in fact we actually had I forget exactly how long somewhere around like a three months bootcamp that we started off with, I think you know. I know in the oil and gas sector, rotations and things like that are the norm, so I think those are similarities there. But we had about a three month period where we got to do everything from kind of go on field trips around the site, which is super fun get to see all the cool buildings and, you know, cool places where really awesome events have taken place, but also really get steeped in the culture, the tradition, what it means I was a flight controller, so what it means to be a flight controller, what it means to be responsible for flying humans on these dangerous missions and you know, just really be, yeah, baked into the tradition that's been laid down by all the past missions.
Speaker 1:Were you ever part of one of those like giant control room clapping cheer moments that they do in the movies? I was yeah Is that something you plan Like? Do I get up my chair Am? I this excited, how excited am I?
Speaker 2:excited am I like no, no, no, um, I, I think it's, it's. Those moments are just such a culmination of so much hard work on the part of so many people, um, and just excitement, that it's like everything you worked for actually worked, it did what it was supposed to do and, um, you know, just just overwhelming joy and a feeling of accomplishment.
Speaker 2:So yeah, wednesday. So you see, so you're at nasa, and and so yeah, adventure, wonder, exploration. I think those are three words that I think are both native to my personality, but also things that I continually work on incorporating and pursue actively, and I really value and have seen the value among my mentors in acquiring as many skills as you can and as many diverse experiences as are available to you or that you make available to yourself through the things you do. And so, actually, I'd had the opportunity to intern in the deep space area at Lockheed Martin when I was in college on OSIRIS-REx so we can talk about the missions more in a minute, but when I had been an intern there just for a few months, we were just it was in 2018, in the summer, and then they arrived at the asteroid Bennu, which was the again, we can talk more about this, but the objective that's the Osiris.
Speaker 1:Oh, sorry For those that don't know, I'm really in a deep space.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know all the things so. So I was there just before we arrived. Um, arrived at the asteroid, and then I was fortunate enough to come back and join the team again. Um, just right before the sample of that asteroid that Osiris-Rex captured returned back to earth.
Speaker 1:What is the time? What is the time link between that, Like yeah.
Speaker 2:So arrival at Bennu was in um I think it was December of 2018 and, uh, it had launched in 2016. So it was.
Speaker 1:I think it was December of 2018.
Speaker 2:Okay, and it had launched in 2016. So it was, I think, a year and a half-ish journey out to the asteroid, and it then conducted science and essentially learned what the asteroid that it was orbiting was, and that helped the team select where the best site to take a sample, which was the whole objective of the mission was to capture a sample of this asteroid, bring it back to Earth, and so the sample was captured in 2020, and then the asteroid sample or sorry, the spacecraft carrying the asteroid sample returned the sample to Earth last fall, in 2023.
Speaker 1:I mean I feel like I'm going to be going on tangents, because even that short little thing that you're talking about, I'm like, okay, going to be going on tangents Because even like that short little thing that you're talking about, so that shuttle stayed on that asteroid In deep space for two years, three years, to find a place, for me that's fascinating. Number one how does it stay on? I guess there's no friction or whatever, but for me it's just how is it communicated back to Earth? I mean, is it through? How is it? How are to Earth? I mean, is it through? I mean, how is it? How are you understanding the exact location on where to? Okay, this is the sample we want. I mean that to me, I'm kind of interested about that. Real quick, real quick, real brief something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean fantastic, incredible team of engineers that you know I was not part of the mission at this point. I get to work with them every day now, which is one of the coolest things ever, but that had really. You know, we're able to very precisely plan out the trajectory that the spacecraft needed to stay in and the orbit that it needed to be in to accomplish the objectives of the mission. And the spacecraft is also outfitted with a number of sensors that you know can take photos and help help scientists and help the engineers look and assess what different parts of the asteroid looked like, and that's what led to be able to select the optimal place to take a sample so when things are coming out.
Speaker 1:so, okay, I can only imagine, uh, the the process when you're actually designing and building out a deep space program. Um, I'm sure it's obviously years and years and years of research and planning and all that stuff. With that time, I mean, I think, ok, if you and I were starting, or you and your team were starting, today about going to whatever there seems to be like such a dramatic increase when it comes to technology, right, when it comes to technology, whether it's, you know, hardware, software, whatever that is how do you, how do you'all, I guess, number one plan incorporate, I mean, do you delay things like, hey, this soft, this, this new technology is coming out, let's see how we can integrate that or fold that into our mission? Right, I know I'm probably rambling right now, but how do you keep your plan, I guess, alive, uh, to incorporate any updates or or or advancements in technology to incorporate, if that makes sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I haven't been on the development side of the spacecraft in the deep space area, so this is a little outside my scope. But Lockheed Martin particularly has years of history of success of flying these deep space missions.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of fantastic heritage that we can take advantage of. But certainly, you know, new technology, where possible, is integrated and software is configurable to make improvements once the spacecraft is already in flight. But, you know, reliability is also such an important piece of these missions because they are as we talked about. I mean, osiris-rex, door-to-door was 2016 to 2023. The other mission that I work on, lucy, launched in 2021, and its mission doesn't end until 2033. So you're dealing with these very long stretches of time because, really, because of the distances, I mean, it's just so vast, and so reliability is a huge, huge part of our design to be sure that our spacecraft are going to do what they need to do for their mission life.
Speaker 1:No, I'm just trying to. So, okay, these long trips, so you say 2033, the Lucy Project, which is actually going to visit the Trojan asteroid on Jupiter.
Speaker 1:For those that aren't accustomed to this, this oh I don't know, I just I know this stuff uh, yeah, no, so, uh, so how do you, I guess again, how do you uh such long scopes of time for such long? I mean, it seems like in this world that we live in, everything's this, this, this, immediate results, immediate, uh, gratification, satisfaction, whatever it is, um, you know, real time, all that. How do you measure the progress of a? It's a mission or a project when it's stretched out for so for such a long period of time?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, there are milestones along the way, right? I should clarify. You know, 2033 is not the culmination point of Lucy, so just quick segue to that for a moment. So Lucy, yeah, like you mentioned, is going after the Trojan asteroids, which are these two clusters of asteroids that one leads Jupiter this is Jupiter, it's leading Jupiter in its orbit and the other is following Jupiter.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And so it's going out to observe several different asteroids in both of those clusters, and so that will occur. Our first Trojan encounter is in 2027. And so over that stretch of six years, all of these encounters will take place. Six years, all of these encounters will take place. And so you really have these milestones throughout the mission that you know accomplish the objectives and accomplish the milestones that were laid out in the mission plan. But there's a number of things that take place in between the encounters as well as right now, on the way out to those asteroids, that make sure we get there as planned. And so some of those include where we burn our engines we call them deep space maneuvers, where we burn our engines for long periods of time to well or varying periods of time I shouldn't say necessarily long but to impart a certain increase or decrease in velocity to make sure that we actually hit the target where we plan to.
Speaker 2:Another thing that we do is take advantage of Earth's gravity through Earth Gravity Assists where the spacecraft comes back and essentially slingshots around the Earth that propels it out in the direction that we need it to go, so that's a great way to make use of fundamental forces, rather than having to expend propulsion to do that.
Speaker 1:And we saw that in Buzz Lightyear movie. For those out there with children, that's my favorite reference. Hollywood, which actually is OK. Ok, moving forward.
Speaker 1:Listen, I feel like I get off on tangents a bunch, so I kind of jotted a couple of things down here. Obviously, I want to hear about the missions that you're that you're working on, the osiris and the lucy uh, I know we just touched on that, but I am curious about that because there are people out there, I'm sure, that are listening that are going to be probably very curious about this. Not only that, but also inspired by um, not just the exploration out there, but also probably about your journey, um, which I think is uh, which I dig. So I want to talk about the mission. Okay, I'm just jotting this down, so it's kind of makes you think of anything. Please jot it down too. All right, I wrote this down.
Speaker 1:Mission, okay, misconceptions. I want to find out misconceptions, not just about kind of um, uh, not just about deep space, but kind of about um, you know, being a uh, an engineer in deep space, a woman engineer in deep space whether it's a misconception or how you kind of, yeah, what is, I guess, what it's like, because I know that's a topic in the oil and gas space your insights before and also I'm going to end this with a conversation about Pluto. Okay, so I mean that was a hot topic at the crew club dinner, so we're going to so talk about let's talk about the missions real quick that you're working on and kind of what, uh, what kind of makes you kind of get that pep in your step, kind of geeks you out about the excitement about the missions you're working on currently. So, if you don't mind, yeah, oh gosh.
Speaker 2:There's a number of things, but I think, just um, these missions are the epitome of reaching out as far as humanity can and, you know, continuing to push that frontier further. So for me personally, it's just the excitement of what we're going to find or not find and you know, the scientists who work on these missions are so brilliant and design these so well. And getting to see, you know, in many cases their life's work come to fruition is just really, really rewarding. What about? What about people?
Speaker 1:that are like oh, why are we? That's a lot of like serious. The haters like why are we wasting money doing deep space? Why do we care? What's on this, this, the Trojan asteroid floating Jupiter, like what is, what is? I guess your comment on people on that, on that, on statements like that, I guess your comment on people on that, on statements like that.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I think and I know that this exploration is so fundamental into learning where all of this around us came from, and particularly, you know you mentioned the Trojan asteroids. The reason those are the target of the Lucy mission is they are believed to be somewhat fossils of the evolution of our solar system. It's believed that they hold answers that other bodies in space, you know, may not hold because of other locations where they're.
Speaker 1:What Like, what Like. Who's picking out this? Oh, this one probably has the answers to the entire origin of life.
Speaker 2:That's way more on the science side. I'm you know I'm the lowliest, that's dating. But you know there is. I mean, this is the answer. That question is people's PhD thesis, right? So yeah, but so I guess, particularly for the Trojans, you know we may, we'll get a glimpse into the evolution of our solar system that we haven't with any other body we've ever seen. And you know, fundamentally it's important for humanity to know, to know where we've come from and to know Just as much information as we can about this environment that shaped us.
Speaker 1:Do you think, obviously, with the web telephoto and all this fun stuff, have you encountered anything? Obviously, if it's personal or not, we don't feel free to answer if you want. Have you encountered anything that challenges, um, like a personal belief or a popular population belief? Uh, the more information, the more that you get to know. So, uh, the, what I'm saying is there's I again, I probably wish I'd read up on this before I we talked, but, um, I remember a couple months ago there was like the web telescope saw something and it's like this should have been a lot older than this. So there it kind of deconstructed or kind of challenged, um, the beliefs of the big bang. So have you encountered anything that maybe has challenged, I guess, the general concept of your beliefs on, kind of whether it's the origin or where we're going, or anything like that?
Speaker 2:I would say no, and I think for me personally, but also just science at large like that is the beauty and the excitement of science is that we are always questioning and always open to learning that we're learning that we're wrong. Like you know just about anything in science, learning that we're wrong is just as exciting as confirming what our theory was, you know. In any case, you're gaining knowledge that you didn't have before, and so I wouldn't say that I've seen anything that challenges every discovery. You know whether it's, and I've been fortunate to be part of just a couple of these really exciting missions, but they're like you mentioned. I mean, there's so many others that are going on out there that anytime I read an article and I read what they discuss, it's just excitement.
Speaker 2:That's the only emotion that I feel is just excitement that we've learned something else that we didn't know before. And we've, we've, we've whether we've edited or you know cut off a little piece of what we thought was a piece of the puzzle to make it actually fit, or we found a piece entirely.
Speaker 1:It's just exciting found a new piece entirely. Uh, it's just exciting, that is it? No, I'm very interested in kind of like. I would assume obviously this is kind of like a uh a you, me and justin sit around, kind of uh, having a coffee, talking about. Like you know, when there is a community, there are general consents. When it comes, like the scientific discovery, I'm kind of curious on what it's like when you do find something that maybe challenge, challenges the norm on if it is accepted or if it does does go against the norm on how much the community challenges. Anyway, that's kind of a side tangent.
Speaker 2:I was just thinking no, you're right, and I think you can look back at any, um, any technological or scientific revolution or revelation really is probably the word I'm looking for at any point in history and see that there are. You know, there's disagreement. But that disagreement and that friction, which I think in so many ways is, you know, maybe considered to be a deconstructive force or a hard thing to or an unpleasant thing, is actually what continues to challenge these held beliefs and continues to challenge our knowledge and make sure that we do actually end up at some, you know, at truth or at, uh, something that the data supports.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I think it's so interesting that you, that your team, that you probably go to work every day to do a mission to fly deep space, whether it's on the lucy or the uh, the uh, osiris, right, and they're. The goal is literally the goal is not to do to accomplish anything bad choice of words. It from my understanding please correct me but it's very interesting that there's so much work, there's so much dedication, there's so much time, energy and effort, resources and brains in the room to literally get information, and I just think that there's no like hey, let's, you know, you think let's go to this asteroid and and effort and resources and brains in the room to literally get information. And I just think that there's no like hey, let's, you know, you think let's go to this asteroid and mine it, or let's go do this and use this to do this, but there's no steps. It's more like it's more just to gather the raw information.
Speaker 1:So you can kind of understand more. I mean, do you want to walk me kind of through, I guess, the missions and the purposes? Am I off base? Does that make sense? So, for example, like when you're drilling a, well, okay, we know where we got to go, we know what we want to do. We know what we want to do with that hydrocarbons deep space. It's like, hey, let's get there, but let's just learn. I think that is such an interesting um lack. It's such an interesting mindset, if that that makes sense. I don't want to go all over the board here.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, I mean, I think it's true, and the objective of these missions is to advance human knowledge of our solar system and of what we're surrounded by and look for answers to the big questions.
Speaker 2:And so you know, like OSIRIS-REx, which was the, you know, the mission that returned the asteroid sample last year, so its purpose was to go out to this carbon rich asteroid and collect a sample, because you know where there's carbon and potential hydrocarbons, potential for water, there's all kinds of secrets that could be held within those rocks, and so bringing them back to Earth is going to set up the scientific community to study that for years in the future Not just this year, but going on for a very long time and provide an unprecedented look at actual material that exists out in space and what that could tell us about Earth and how Earth formed, how we formed all that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:But I think you know, getting to the more practical I guess a more practical look at your question too is from a spacecraft use standpoint. Osiris-rex, for example. So it launched in 2016, returned to asteroid in 2023. The spacecraft is still capable, it's still functioning, it's still, you know, doing great out there, and so a extended mission is now in place, which the name is now OSIRIS-APEX, apex being Apophis Explorer, and so there's an asteroid called Apophis that is going to have a very close encounter with the Earth in 2029, actually and so our spacecraft was designed to explore another asteroid, and so this was another opportunity to continue using the spacecraft that still is functioning, still has all of this capability, and use it for a new mission.
Speaker 1:Was this thought about before 2016, or was it like up there? It's like, hey, what else we got up there? Let's hop over here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it really comes down to, the spacecraft was designed to fly its primary mission, which is OSIRIS-REx, and it achieved that and still had functionality left. So it really was something that was able to be able to be thought about. Yeah, was something that was able to be able to be thought about yeah, after are each of these?
Speaker 1:are each of these uh shuttles or whatever? Are each of these designed different, like the one going to sire? Uh, you know, the cyrus mission versus the lucy mission. I'm a stupid, are they? I guess, different capabilities, different designs.
Speaker 2:So you have to design shuttles for each different mission right, yeah, I mean, like I said before, there's there's so much history that Lockheed Martin has with designing spacecraft for these kinds of purposes, and so there's a lot of really fantastic heritage that can be taken advantage of across the board. But but absolutely, I mean each one of them has a different objective. Um has to operate in a slightly different environment to achieve the mission objective, and so um. So yeah, there there are certainly choices that are made to make sure it can accomplish all of that.
Speaker 1:Give me, give me a day in the life of you right now, because it's so fascinating. You got two different deep space things going. Give me, let's give me, let's get, let's get more casual conversation. Give me a day in the life of you right now, yeah.
Speaker 2:What that's like Gosh, it's a day in the life is pretty awesome. So my job at systems engineering right, so our job really is to be the big picture engineering thinkers who are working with all of the more individual subsystems of a spacecraft. So you know, a spacecraft has engineers that think about just its power system, or just its propulsion system, or just its communication system. There's different systems that all combine together, create the spacecraft. So, as a systems engineer, I like to think of it as my job is to speak enough of the language of all of those different areas to be able to effectively communicate with them individually, but also see how all the pieces really fit together.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of like I guess, if I'm listening to that, that's kind of like a project foreman or something like that where you have the people building a house, you have the people that do the plumbing, the people that do the electricity, the people that do the drywalls. You're saying, hey, listen, this is how it all goes together, this is what everyone kind of needs to do to stay on the track, so we get this thing built.
Speaker 2:Exactly and it provides that bigger picture understanding of you. Know, maybe we're planning to do this with one subsystem and something else with another subsystem, but at the system level you can see, oh hey, you know, if we do those at the same time, that may not have the exact effect we want, or it could lead to something that could not go as planned. Or, hey, actually, yeah, we're doing that. That would be a great time to incorporate another objective from another team.
Speaker 2:So a day in my life is very social, talking with all the different engineers who are working on their individual subsystems, but then integrating all of that into what we actually um send to the spacecraft. So I'm actually writing the commands that we uh send to the spacecraft to make it do the different things we want it to do. Um, so, yeah, so it's pretty awesome. And then, um, then there's a whole process that we go through to ensure what we're sending is safe and does exactly what we want it to do, and then there's the really fun part of actually getting to uplink it to the spacecraft.
Speaker 1:So that's like you do it, that's like you do all the work. It's like, ok, everyone, all the I's dot, all the T's Right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, yep, you actually see it, see it happen and um, you know just many, many moments of kind of, you know those big clapping moments like we talked about earlier. You get so many of small doses of that so regularly, uh, which is just very rewarding wow, no, it's just okay, so all right, so let's talk.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about some misconceptions right now about deep space, all right. So obviously, ho, obviously, hollywood does a great job of talk. Give me some misconceptions about kind of what it's like to work as a deep space engineer. If you don't mind, also give me some misconceptions about space that you kind of like get annoyed that when you see oh gosh, this is hard.
Speaker 1:How is this? I would assume. I would assume monica was a deep space engineer. Every movie that we watch that has anything to do with spatially. Oh, no, no, no, that fire is not gonna happen.
Speaker 2:No explosion yeah, I think what always makes me laugh, um, in movies is how you've got people talking about a mission they want to fly and then the very next day you see the rocket on the pad and it's, it's launching off and you and the amount of planning and it just speaks to how incredible the teams are that are involved in all of these missions, just how many decisions and how much planning and how many years as we've talked about these timelines they're long go into making these things successful. So I think, yeah, anytime, you, you see, you see somebody just hopping on a rocket the next day.
Speaker 1:That's one. That's, that's one. I feel like there's a lot more than just one rocket being ready. What about actual the physics of space? Can anyone hear you scream in space?
Speaker 2:well, yeah, no, I mean, there's no particles, so there's nothing for the sound to to, to travel through and to bump against um yeah, this is the stuff.
Speaker 1:This is the stuff I need, yeah another movie.
Speaker 2:Where was it? Brad pitt, I don't know. Somebody was walking on the moon without a space suit, just with their, their head out in the open, and I was like, oh, there's no, no oxygen on the moon, so that's not going to work. There's no atmosphere, um, but um, I'm trying to think all right, give me the difference between space and deep space yeah, so I guess deep space is really um, we're talking about going beyond, going further out into our solar system, beyond the influence of Earth.
Speaker 1:So you go ahead. I was going to say so. I would assume with that would that be more math related, more what is it? You know, math background, like is there a different background when you're talking about shallow space and deep space? I don't think it's shallow space.
Speaker 2:No, I mean they are. They are very different environments, but no, the same. I mean that's another wonderful thing about physics, right? It applies no matter where you are. So the physics that you're dealing with is always going to be the same, I think you know, when you're closer to Earth, you're dealing with Earth's gravity You're dealing with depending on how close your orbit is to Earth, you're dealing with potential atmosphere.
Speaker 2:Just, you know, up in the very, very, very thin atmosphere, you know drag on your spacecraft related to that Radiation is another big problem we encounter, and making sure that all the components of our spacecraft are built to handle that, especially for long missions like these. You know they've got to withstand that for many, many years at a time. So, but you know there are many differences, certainly in terms of operations and capabilities that you want to build into your spacecraft. But as far as the engineering disciplines go, no, I wouldn't say there's a difference. I think one of the big differences you know that I've seen from working in human spaceflight, where ISS is orbiting around the Earth in low Earth orbit, to now working on these missions that are going very far out into our solar system is and this is one of the really cool physics-y parts for me is just light and how fast it travels.
Speaker 2:right, it travels super blazing fast, but when you're that far in the solar system, for example out near Jupiter, you know, depending exactly where you are, of course, but it could take on the order of an hour for light or any.
Speaker 2:You know light meaning anything on the spectrum. So any kind of signal, whether you're talking about a radio wave or an actual visible light wave, traveling from that far could take an hour to get to Earth. So what that means when it comes to your spacecraft is your spacecraft is out in this far region of the solar system when it's always sending back information right to Earth, and so anytime you see information and data from the spacecraft on the ground, you know on your computer that information, if your spacecraft is out near Jupiter, is already about an hour old. So you really never see the momentary real-time data. When you're operating in low Earth orbit, that's very different. The time delay there is negligible. It's really not detectable at all by humans. You know at the operational level and so when you are, you're getting data from the spacecraft, you know that's your current state within a few milliseconds, and even out near the moon, it's about a second and a half time delay.
Speaker 2:So, again pretty negligible in terms of assessing what is happening in the current moment. So I think that is one big difference and one thing that you really have to consider in your spacecraft design right. Your spacecraft has to be very smart, has to be able to take care of itself if it gets in a bad situation.
Speaker 1:when you're that far away from home and you're that much time away from your engineers seeing, oh hey, there could be something wrong or something didn't go as planned, I would assume, kind of in an environment like that, around so many people working together, siloed but also working together, probably having a similar curiosity mindset I would assume that there's the teams that you work with. I would just like the culture that is probably a lot of people that are just like, again, a bunch of engineers, scientists, exploring deep space is probably pretty open to kind of Whether it's feedback, working together. Hey, there's a, there's a challenge, a hurdle that we didn't, that we didn't anticipate. Let's all kind of form together as a team to overcome. I mean, would you? Is that kind of a safe assumption to in this type of environment?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, oh yeah yeah, and that's another of my favorite parts about both of the jobs or you know both of the places that I worked at is in both places, the teamwork and the communication is such an integral part of the culture and such there's such an emphasis on it for successful operation of our spacecraft. And so, yeah, absolutely. And I think that comes to kind of a bigger theme of my experience generally, which is that communication is so vital. It is so vital in this field and I would imagine it's the same in oil and gas. You know you're working with these very complex systems in these high risk environments and of course, you've got to have your technical legs right. You got to know what you're doing technically. But the way you communicate with each other, the way you choose your words and you know how much or how little you say is so important and makes you know, can make or break a situation.
Speaker 1:Well, okay, so talk about communication, leadership skills. How do you ensure that you have the right communication skills when you're talking to a team Like how do you know, how do you, how do you know they're relay, they're picking up what you're relaying to them?
Speaker 2:So I think I'll take this back to my experience. It still applies at Lockheed Martin, certainly, but at Johnson Space Center. You know, when you're working in mission control as a flight controller, you've seen the movie right, like they've all got their headsets on. They're all sitting in mission control Houston. We have a problem? Hey, yeah, just like that.
Speaker 2:And you see, all of them are on this interconnected loop system, which, again, very similar concept at Lockheed Martin as well, but as part of the bootcamp that I talked about earlier, a big chunk of that was learning protocol, communication protocol, so actually like some shortened words that have been developed to relay things more quickly. Lots and lots of simulations, whether it just be a paper simulation where you've just got kind of a script you're walking through or a situation you're sort of hypothetically working through and practicing, you know, explaining what the problem is to your leadership or to another subsystem and then being evaluated on that and saying, hey, that was way too wordy. Or like, hey, you didn't actually get to the root of what the problem was. So lots and lots of drills and simulations to be sure that what you were saying on those loops was the absolute perfect straddle between too much and too little too much and too little.
Speaker 1:The reason why I think that's so interesting? Because communication I think you're right Just because I can communicate to you, that doesn't mean what I'm communicating to you you're picking up. So I think that's such an interesting concept of what you're talking about. The message is the message actually. Can that be distributed amongst a great group of people and them understand the message? Very similar. I think that is so interesting because a lot of times, a lot of industries, it's like well, I told them what to do, they should figure it out. And that's make or break when you're dealing with such high risks, high stakes, like you are.
Speaker 2:Right and it comes. I mean, it comes down to even some simple techniques where, when we were talking on the loops with our headsets on, you know someone gives you some information, such as numbers. Where it's you know, it's really easy to say miss the digits or think they said nine instead of five, you say the numbers that could be confusing slightly differently. Or you know as the person receiving the message, you read the numbers back to be sure that, hey, we are both on the same page.
Speaker 2:Or, if it's you know a numerical thing exactly, really reading back what you understood from the interaction and then putting the responsibility back on the person who transmitted it and, if that understanding is not correct, trying again and making sure that what you intended to communicate is what was understood. And I think it's it's. You know, it's such a life concept as well. Right, I mean communication and I think it's such a life concept as well.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean communication.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. But yeah, like you said, especially in these high risk and I imagine in oil and gas it's similar You're working with people in challenging environments and doing hard engineering problems that require you to make sure you're communicating very effectively. Make sure you're communicating very effectively.
Speaker 1:And there is a lot of there, and I think I think the little tangent, I think communication is going to be more important as time goes on, just because people have a skill set when it comes to communication has dialed back through the use of texting, emailing, electronic ways to communicate. I think actual voice relaying information is kind of going down so real quick. I know we're talking about 48 minutes. This has been a great conversation. I'm sure I can dial in longer, but One by. I know it has. I want to for people out. First off, I want to tie you have knowledge, experience and conversations on the similarities between the energy space, the oil and gas space and also the, the deep space thing, which I'd like to touch on.
Speaker 1:But before I forget this, people that are out there, um, that kind of, are interested in kind of pursuing. I uh feel that they're curious. And you know I think that's something that you know, kate Heiken, we had a, a, uh yeah, kate, we had a, a a crew club dinner, and she brought up a great point, that something that you're talking about curiosity. You know, if, how do you promote? I mean, what would you tell someone out there that is interested about pursuing, what they're curious in something that kind of like pretty much what would you, I guess? What advice do you have out there for for young men and women out there to, before they pursue their passion?
Speaker 2:I think I'll start back at the choose your challenge concept right Of knowing that if you are most interested in something, more than likely you're going to be willing to put up with the hard things that come along with that.
Speaker 2:And so I think, every time I look back at the, or when I look back at all of what I would consider some of my biggest successes, they come from when I'm being the most authentic and when I have the most innate interest in whatever the topic is surrounding the event.
Speaker 2:I think you do the best, you perform the best when you are pursuing something that actually lights your fire.
Speaker 2:And so you know, even if, again, yeah, there will be difficulties, no matter what you pick. And so you can choose something that maybe you know, maybe you're interested in something that has a career that's a little harder to get to the end point and there's a route you could pick that has a career closer to getting right out of undergrad or, you know, the situation could be so, so varied, but, um, I think it's looking, being able to look years down the line and say, do I want to do this for the years of my life and will that make me happy and will that make me fulfilled, and I think that central question is something I I consider often and I want that, what I want, whatever I'm doing, to always, you know, have the answer be yes, which it has been, and you know when, if the answer ever becomes no for anybody, you should consider what it is that would would would change that for you. So that was a little all over the place no-transcript.
Speaker 1:Pursue the interest, pursue curiosity. Okay, Speaking of this is a vision board, dream thing that I'm going to ask you If you could pick your mission okay, this is just your mission, all right under the Ellis Deep Space Exploration Company. What would it be and why? Like, if you could pick, yeah, what would it be and why?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh. Right, that's such a great question.
Speaker 1:Right. We ask those on Energy Crew Podcast no.
Speaker 2:All really good questions. Oh man, I think this is like completely non-scientific, based, purely little kid in me like saturn and its rings is just I don't know, so cool. I I think it's cool what about it?
Speaker 2:no reason other than that I just think it's. It's so cool and there was a mission that went there and and did some. I did tons of science, I. I don't know anything about exactly what it achieved, but the Cassini mission actually went and studied Saturn for a while. It reached the end of its mission so it's no longer out there. So I would have to do a lot more research, but I would send a spacecraft out to Saturn and just take a lot of pictures of the rings. I don't know, I think they're really awesome.
Speaker 1:So, saturn's your, okay, saturn's your. If you had to pick a favorite planet, it'd be sad, okay, all right. Okay, all right. So, speaking of planets, tie this up pluto. What's your thoughts? What's your thoughts, no?
Speaker 2:I'm not qualified, I'm not.
Speaker 1:I'm not a planetary scientist I'm gonna say this in my, in my might, include as a planet, I'm throwing it out there. You heard it here on energy crew and richard morty all right, great, okay, so, uh, all right. And the last thing is aliens where you? What's your stance? I gotta ask you that, yeah if I don't ask you that monica's gonna upset me if I don't ask you about it seems statistically probable that there could be something out there that is such an engineering answer, that is such an engineering non-confirmation confirmation.
Speaker 1:I love it. So, hey, honestly, do you have anything to bring up? I know we're talking for an hour and I know it's Friday. Thank you so much for your time and kind of getting behind the mic and talking to me. I'd love to probably do this again, but do you have anything else you want to share with me? Or, uh, with our, with our audience out there, or anything like that?
Speaker 2:you know I don't think so. I love where you've taken this conversation and um it's I think this is one of those things.
Speaker 1:It's kind of frustrating, I'm literally. I feel like we could be like a group of us around the table just talking for like two hours, just totally yeah, yeah no, this, this is absolutely.
Speaker 2:I didn't even realize we were, you know, running long until you said that, but um no, this has been such a pleasure and um I yeah, I don't think I have anything else, but I just really appreciate.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you well, first off, uh, you know, uh, that you know you and your husband were huge fans of y'all over at our house, so we love y'all. But, um, hey, um, but I want to thank you so much for your time. Um, it's so it was great having you at the table and, uh, it was just just just your experience and your background. I mean, we're all talking about ai and the wolf beard, we're like, and then everyone at the table's like hold on, we don't want to talk, we're talking about deep space right now. So it was so great having you there. It it's such a cool, unique industry to get into. I think it's just fascinating for people out there. I'm going to tell my daughter about this. She's going to dig this, but it's just one of those things where it's like I think, promoting the engineering side, the STEM fields, for people that are interested to get into, I dig it. I love what you do. Obviously, I want to learn more about it, but, um, until then, uh, thank you for your time.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, and I also just want to say, like I you know, I really love what you're doing with crew club and um, with all of your pursuits. I think it's so, it's so awesome to have a place where people can really come and and bring ideas and learn from each other, um, just in a space that is fully fully dedicated to that. And um, I, you know, have listened to several of your other episodes of your podcasts and I I love the topics you explore and it's really inspiring for me to hear these other leaders and other people that you bring on Um. So so thank you for doing that and well, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that sound bit. Thank you for that sound. I'll send you a Starbucks gift card for that sound bit. Thank you for that sound bit I'll send you a starbucks gift card for that. But uh, yeah, thank you so much for tuning in, obviously, uh, caroline, how could they get in touch with you if they're kind of curious about uh continuing the conversation? Is it linkedin potential?
Speaker 2:yeah, you can find me on linkedin. Yep, caroline ellis on linkedin and I'd be happy to happy to chat I love it.
Speaker 1:Well, hey, hopefully next time I could see uh, see you and jess when I'm up there, which is me in June, but everyone out there. I want to thank you for tuning in to Energy Crew Podcast and again, this episode was you don't do puns Out of this world. Yes, that was good. Thank you.