Learn About Burgundy Wine with Wine Expert, Alex Lopez

Ep 46

Located in the heart of France is the renowned region of Burgundy. 

Burgundy is famed for its vineyards and diverse terroir. From Cote d’Or which is dominated by the Pinot Noir grape to the Cote de Beaune characterized by an abundance of Chardonnay, each sub region holds its own allure and unique varietals. 

And with such a large region it’s easy to get confused by all the Burgundy has to offer! (Even if it’s mostly only two grapes!)

So, I’m so excited to have Burgundy expert Alex Lopez (@drinkswithalexlopez) on the podcast today to teach us all about this region! Alex has focused his career on wine and spirit education while keeping accessibility as key. In addition to his numerous wine certifications, he has recently completed an MBA in Wine and Spirits from the Burgundy School of Business in Dijon.

Alex dives into the historical evolution of Burgundy, explains the different sub-regions, the classification system, and even touches on tips for buying wine and what to do and where to stay while visiting Burgundy.

Are you ready for this deep dive into the French region of Burgundy? If so, grab a glass of your favorite French wine and listen in!

Connect with Alex:

Instagram - @drinkswithalexlopez

Website - www.drinkswithalexlopez.com

This episode of the Cork and Fizz podcast is sponsored by Repour - save 10% off your next order with code CORKANDFIZZ and the Cork Crew Virtual Wine Club - grab your free class pass at www.corkandfizz.com/freeclasspass

Episode Highlights:

• History of Burgundy

• Burgundy wine regions and grape varieties

• Burgundy wine regions and their unique characteristics

• Burgundys classification systems 

• Is Grand Cru worth the hype?

• Nuances between Premier Cru and Grand Cru designations

• Best tips for buying Burgundy wine

• Visiting Burgundy - Tour companies, recommended wineries and where to stay

Transcript

0:09

Interested in learning about wine, but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I'm your host, Haley Bullman, and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and founder of the Seattle based wine tasting business, Cork and Fizz. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable and lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or a total cork dork like myself, this podcast is for you. So grab yourself a glass and let's dive in. Today, I'll be chatting with Alex Lopez. Alex is focused on wine and spirits education while keeping accessibility as key. His Instagram at drinks with alexlopez is one of my favorite pages for learning more about wine and spirits. He shares small bits of information in a really approachable way and has a great sense of humor to go with it. I find that key with people I like to learn from. In addition to certifications from the WSET, Society of Wine Educators, and Wine Scholar Guild, he has recently completed an MBA in Wine and Spirits Business from the Burgundy, yeah, that Burgundy School of Business in Dijon. He has also taken the Bourgogne Master Scholar exam, which is why he is the perfect person to give us a deep dive into the French region of Burgundy. I'll be asking him about his career, how he got to where he is today, and what he plans to do in the future along with learning a little bit more about Burgundy along the way. This is going to be a lot of fun. So without further ado, let's get into the interview. Thanks for joining me for this. I'm looking forward to learning more about you, first of all, and your love of wine and then to deep dive a little bit into burgundy. Yeah. I'm super excited. It's gonna be so much fun. Cool. Okay. Well, let's just I'm I'm thinking of doing this in 2 parts. We're gonna start 1 as I have in my notes. I'm, like, part 1 about Alex, and then part 2, we'll do a little bit of that burgundy deep dive. So first, about you, let's just start. I gave a little intro in the beginning, but I wanna give you a chance to intro yourself. So tell me a little bit more about who you are and what you do. Yep. So my name is Alex Lopez, and I am the wine director for a fine wine and spirit store here in Greenville, South Carolina. I just finished my MBA in wine and spirits management at the Burgundy School of Business in Dijon, and have been studying wine pretty intensively since, 2019. Cool. And now for we know where you're at now, but I always have to ask, what was it that originally sparked your interest in wine? How did you fall in love with us? So I have been a little wine nerd since I was 14 years old. Really? Yep. I bought my first copy of the World Wine Atlas when I was 14 because we were learning about the Abbey of Clooney in our history class. And I was like, oh my gosh. I need to learn everything there is about wine because it's so tied to history and all of that. But I didn't get into wine full time as my career until after getting literally hit by a truck. Okay. So, basically, I was riding my bike to work one day, and I got clipped by a pickup truck while riding my bicycle. And for the next 4 years, basically, on and off, I was dealing with chronic pain. I was dealing with numerous surgeries, and I couldn't work. So I was fortunate enough to find a doctor who was able to put me back together. And when everything was all fixed up, my wife, Catherine, came up to me and she said, alright. You've literally just gotten your life back, and you've been studying wine. So why don't we just make this your full time career? Uh-huh. She's the smart one, isn't she? She is. She she knows she knows what's up. Oh, wow. So okay. Sounds like maybe history nerd in in school, that was kinda your thing, and wine was attached to that. There was, like, this idea of you could learn more about the history. I'm so cute. Like, at 14 to be like, I wanna learn about wine. Yep. I knew where I wanted to go to college when I was in 5th grade. Wow. Yeah. Man, I didn't I didn't even know when I was 18 where I wanted to go to college or what I wanted to do, to be honest. So I studied history at Gettysburg College in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. That makes sense. Alright. We're gonna skip forward a little bit. So like you said, you ended up getting your MBA in Burgundy. And am I right in saying you've taken the Bergone Master Scholar exam? I took it on Sunday. Ah, it's crazy. Okay. I'm curious why Burgundy. Is there a particular reason you focused on this region? Well, it goes back to the history. It's one of the longest historical wine regions outside of, like, Italy and Greece. And I love the fact that it's so simple in terms of just having 2 grapes, but so complex because it's how those 2 grapes are really expressed is the essence of what burgundy is. So it's something that you can spend your entire career just focusing in on. That's so true, that juxtaposition. Yeah. Burgundy is, like, it's simple. It's just pinot noir chardonnay. And then you take one more step into burgundy, and you're like, it is not simple in the slightest. I mean, what is it? One 5th of all French appellations are in Burgundy. I believe it. That makes sense. Okay. We're gonna dive into more of Burgundy. Before we do that, I have one last question on your journey and your experience in wine here. And I usually say it for the end, but again, we're gonna do burgundy at the end. So what's next for you? What's next on the horizon? So my company, we now have a bank account and all that fancy stuff. So Drinks Dogs Lopez is fully incorporated and can get paid, which is really fun. I will be taking on a number of roles in the fine dining scene here in Greenville, South Carolina as a professional wine educator. Oh. Where you have a lot of restaurants have their floor sommelier or their beverage director, I'm going to be coming in and doing special events where we do very focused single region dining experiences for guests and kind of ramp that up into something special. Well, that's cool. So have you had restaurant experience in the past, or is this kinda your first foray into the restaurant world? Oh, I grew up in a hotel. My dad was the general manager of a hotel in Wyoming, so I have restaurant experience. I have hotel experience. I have skier experience. I've got it all. Cool. Oh, that's gonna be so fun. Will these be, like is the goal for these to be towards any type of audience? Are we looking for wine experts, wine newbies, or anything in between? So it's really kinda open ended. We just I just did a French wine only pairing dinner with one of the restaurants here in Greenville last week, and that was just, like, French 101. But we are also working with one of the fanciest restaurants in Greenville to do a Grand Cru only dinner. So pairing every single plate with a different Grand Cru, and we're hoping to be doing a Favelique Grand Cru wines. So Mazze Chambartan, Cortan, and maybe Amant Richey. They're gonna see what they can do. Wow. What a cool experience. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Well, I definitely know that I'll have to be visiting Greenville sometime before you leave this job or to move on to the next thing in your career because these wine dinners sound amazing. Oh, well, we are based in Greenville, and Greenville is probably gonna be home based for the next couple years. Okay. Okay. Good to know. Okay. So now we're gonna dive into Burgundy. And as always, I always like to start with the history, I think. And this is perfect since you're very into the history. So is there could you give us, like, a a brief history of burgundy? I know it's a big ask. So Burgundy, the first production of grapes is in the 1st century in Chevre Chambataum. They found a vineyard that was planted by the Romans. It was kind of the heartland of the last Gallic holdouts against Roman occupation, the battle of Elysium where Julius Caesar finished his conquest of Gaul, happened about 25 miles from Dijon. And then for most of French history, it was a quasi independent state. So under the Valois dynasty, the 3rd son of the Valois king became duke of Burgundy and made it a independent state. And then there were the 4 dukes of burgundy who ruled over it and really created this very cosmopolitan nation essentially for about 300 years. Wow. And when was this? What were those 300 years? So 1378 to the beginning of the 1600. Okay. And so you have these 4 major dukes really changed the way that burgundy wine was made. So Philip Bold, especially, the first duke, he came in to Burgundy after the time when the black death had swept through, and a lot of the vineyards were changing. So he was came in, and he banned Gamay in 13/95 and really kind of set up that pinot noir was going to be the grape that defined burgundy. And then he married his son, Charles, to a Dutch Duchess, and that is why you have, like, the there's a very famous beer called Duchess of Burgonia. That's a Belgian beer, and that's because of this tie between Belgium, the Netherlands, and Burgundy. In fact, the whole original constitution of the Netherlands. So the very first kind of constitutional structure that we have in the Netherlands comes because of Burgundians. Wow. And then half of it was reincorporated into France after the death of Philip the Rash died at the Battle of Nantes. So the duchy of Burgundy, the core duchy of Burgundy, So everything west of the Saone River reverted back to France. Everything east of the Saone River became part of the holy Roman empire and stayed there until well into the, 1700. After the 30 years war was when French comte was reincorporated back into France. So places like Jura and Savoie became part of it. And so, yeah, burgundy, lots of history, and you have monks. Monks are the big things in the wine making history. So you have the Benedictines and Cistercians really kind of are able to plot out all of the vineyards across Burgundy because they're making wine to be shipped to different places. So you have the Grand Cru wines were originally classified as the wines that would go to the pope's table. The upper slopes were the wines of the cardinals, which we even now know as premier cru, and then the bishop's wines became the village level. Wow. Okay. So they made these different levels, and we're gonna talk about the different levels. I wanna kinda dig into that for those that are newer to burgundy. But it more had to do with, like, who they were giving it to. Like, they knew the most important people had to get the best wine. And so they had to distinguish each of these pieces, and and they knew even then. Was it purely just, like, from experiment? Like, this wine just ended up tasting the best? Yep. It was just because this wine tasted the best or they were figuring out how aspects work. So they knew, like, you were getting more sun on this area, so better grape production, and they were really very scientific about it. That is so cool. And at this time, we have to also remember that most communion wine prior to the 1500 is actually white wine across Roman Catholicism. Because you didn't have dry cleaners, and you still had your white vestments. So you're doing, like, 2 months worth of church services, and you couldn't spill any red wine on your white vestments. So white wine was the main communion wine for a long time. Just a quick reminder, if you are not on my mailing list yet, what are you waiting for? I would love for you to join. When you do, you'll get a free shopping guide that has 15 of my favorite wines under $15. Head to korkandfizz.com, scroll down to the bottom, and there'll be a little section where you can join the mailing list. I send out a weekly newsletter filled with wine tips, recommendations, special offers, and so much more. And was it always so I know you mentioned, like, when they got rid of Gamay. Right? And Gamay is the grape now of Beaujolais, which is just below Burgundy. Was it always then Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, essentially, after they got rid of the Gamay? Yep. I mean, there's still places where they grow Gamay in the so the town of Gamay is actually in the Cote de Beaune. Okay. And the town of Chardonnay is in the Maconay. I'm sorry. I knew about Chardonnay. I did not know about the town of Gamay. Okay. So we've we've started to dig into a little bit of the the grapes. Right? I I shared on a previous episode, French 101, about Pinot Noir and Chardonnay's where, you know, is what you'll find in Burgundy, but, right, that's just the beginning. We know that French wine is best understood by learning about the regions. So can you tell us a little bit about you've mentioned a couple of them, you know, the Macconay, but can you tell us about the different regions in Burgundy and, you know, kind of the basics of how do they differ in terms of the wines they make and the terroir that they have? So, basically, we think about Burgundy as the main stretch is this long escarpment called the Cote d'or, or the Golden Coast. And that extends downwards. So you have the Cote d'Ivoire in the north, which is Pinot Noir dominated about 97% pinot noir in the cotonouille. Then you get down to the Cote de Beaune, and it starts to open up a little bit, so you see a little bit more Chardonnay. This is where you see your famous Chardonnay grand cruise coming in. We'll talk about those in a bit. Then you go down into the coach chalonese, which is a little bit of a different soil topography, a little bit more of an uplift of a different style of limestone. But this is where you can actually find probably your best value driven Burgundy wines. So places like Montagne, Macquarie, Ruy, and Geoffrey are all lovely wines. And then Bouzeron is a village level aperation, which only produces the grape alagote. That's right. There's one other grape you can find. Well, I guess we about a little bit of Gamay, but the alagote, the the random one that you can the other grape you can find in burgundy. Yep. And then you go south and you're in pure Chardonnay land in the Maconay, which includes places like the Macon Village, Appalachians, and then Pouilly Foussey, Pouilly Vinsale, Pouilly L'Oche, Saint Ferron, all those kind of stuff are down in the furthest south. And then at that southernmost point, you start to transition into Beaujolais. And a lot of Beaujolais actually was part of Burgundy originally. It's only when they redrew maps that Beaujolais was cut off and put into a different region. So, therefore, it's not part of the Burgundian the Begonia French Conte region. So it is no longer because that's one thing I always get confused on is, like, is Beaujolais its own region, or is it a part of Burgundy that they just choose not to be, like, a part of? It's a part of a different French region. So, basically, in France, you have the country of France, then you have regions, which are kind of like states. Okay. And then you have, which are kind of like counties. Okay. So the wine growing region of Burgundy exists within Bergonia Franches, which is the region, and it's spread across 3 departements, the Yonne, the Cote d'Or, and the Sonnet Loire. Wow. This is why things are confusing. Right? Because you're like, the the Cote D'or is both one of these. I can't say the one you're saying, but the county region, and it's also a wine region. Yep. Yeah. Not confusing at all. And what about Chablis? So Chablis is the northernmost part. It is in the Yon De Patemont. It was actually, for the longest time, under the historical purview of the counts of Champaign because the Serin River, it sits on the right bank of the Serin River, which flows south to north. And that was where the border used to be between Champagne and Burgundy, but then the Burgundians conquered it, and it became part of Burgundy. So it's this northern most exclave. It's totally separate from the contiguous area of the Cote d'Or, But you also have so you have Chablis. You have Saint Brie. You have Vezelay. You have all these little tiny village level appellations up there that produce some really stunning wines, including the only Sauvignon Blanc that you can find that is produced in the Burgundian region. And where that's in what which one which of those regions produces the Sauvignon Blanc? In Saint Brie. Saint Brie. That's new to me. Oh, I I feel like I've heard it maybe once or twice before, but I still it's so hard. So, like, technically, Chablis is part of Burgundy, but it's not necessarily contiguous with everything else you can, like, drive and be in the Burgundy and wine region. And if you wanna get even more confusing, Poulefume is technically part of Bergonia, France, Comte region, but it is part of the Loire Valley wine region. Right. Great. We needed it more confusing. One other question I have when you're talking about the region. So let's go back to the newest Burgundy region. So we have the Cote d'Or is what you said, like, in the north, and then that's it's called the Gold Coast. Do you know why that is? Depending on which person you're talking to, there are 4 different definitions. Let's see. But the 2 that I like the most are it is golden during the fall when all the leaves change. So it's like driving past this big golden stretch of land, or it is the Cote de Oriente. So it is the orientation. It is an east facing escarpment, and they just shortened oriente to or to make it sound like gold. Oh, sure. Alright. I can see that. Okay. So we have the Cote D'Or, and then that's broken down into remind me again, so it's a Cote D'Ivoire, which is primarily Pinot Noir. Cote D'annuit, that's mostly Pinot Noir. And what was the other half again? And then the Cote D'ivoire. Cote de Beaune. That's right. That's the one I'm most familiar with. And there is a, like, a city called Bone. Is there not? Yep. Bone is the kind of wine making headquarters city of Burgundy. It is where the BIVB, which is the Begonia wine board, is based. It is also where the majority of the large negotiance are based. So like Louisa dough, Bushaw, B show, all based in bone. Okay. And then so that's the first part. And then is Dijon in the cotenui? Dijon is at the very top of the Cotonouille. So the southernmost, like, suburbs of Dijon are part of, which is included within the Marstonet Appalachian, which is the furthest north village. Okay. The only wine making area inside of Dijon city limits proper is called Bergonia Mont Cool or Burgundy, the mount of butts because it's so steep that all of the farmers, their pants would fall down when they're bending over. So it's literally Mont, m o n t e, cool, butt. Mount but. Oh, man. I love that they got a good sense of humor, man. And all the people who produce on Mont Cool, they all have labels They're just people's butts. Okay. I'm definitely looking for those ones now. Okay. So we that's the the coat of art, and then just below that, just I I feel like it's nice to just run through it one more time because I feel like it's helpful to kind of picture. Under that was. Yep. I haven't found that much in the US, or maybe it just doesn't pop up or people don't label it as such. This podcast is sponsored by Repour Wine Savers. Listen, I love wine, but that doesn't mean I want to drink a full bottle every night. You see, it's always a risk opening a bottle knowing I'll only have a glass or 2. But now, I don't worry about that at all because I have repour. These little contraptions will keep your open bottles of wine good for up to 3 months by removing oxygen from the bottle using fancy chemistry. And they're so easy to use. I simply open a bottle of wine, cork, or screw cap, just like normal, and enjoy my glass or 2. Then, when I'm ready to call it a night, I rip the foil off my Re pour wine saver and place it in the bottle in place of the cork or screw cap, and then stick the bottle in the fridge. Simple as that. Then, whenever I grab another glass from that bottle in the future, I just make sure to put the Repour back on as soon as I'm done pouring. 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Simply head to corkandfizz.com/freeclasspass to get your class pass and be one step closer to becoming a member of the best wine tasting club around, the court crew. I can't wait to see you there. Now let's get back to the show. You just have to you have to know the villages. Okay. Most buyers are trying to bring in Cote D'or wines or Maconay wines, and the is kind of called the forgotten zone. Okay. So you have places like Mercurie, which is probably the most common place that you'll find red wine from the Coacheones. And then Jivre, Ruli are super, like, specific. You have to seek those out actively. Oozaron, as I mentioned, only aligotay, and then Montagne is all Chardonnay. Okay. Because you said that was, like, the best value, and I thought that was interesting because I always associated with the best value, but I suppose that's only, like, the best value Chardonnay, if anything. Anything. Yeah. The the joke that they used to make about the Meconnay is that it was the bargain basement Fair enough. Burgundy because there used to not there weren't any premier cruise there until 2020. So it was like, nobody thought that the mac and a was serious. A lot of the wine that was produced there was produced by co ops. So people are like, no. It's not as serious as the rest of Burgundy, but Maconnais is amazing value wines. And, like, Pouilly Fusse wines are fantastic because you have literally this rock, the Roche de Salute, the solitude rock pops up in the middle of Pouilly Fusse, and it's the exact same terroir as the Cote D'Or. Part of it is maybe, and then this is something that we'll we'll talk about too. I'm very curious of, like, a lot of its classification systems and the things they decided are are, like, very old. And I'm curious how up to date they are or how much they're just like, okay. We've decided this, so now that's what it is. But before we go into, like, opinions on it, we've talked a little bit about Grand Cru, Premier Cru, Village. But for those that are new to Burgundy, that might be like, what the heck are you talking about? So there's a fairly strict classification system in Burgundy. Can you tell us a little bit about it? Yep. So we have 84 Appalachians in Burgundy. Each village produces their own wine, or they can produce regional level wine. So you have 44 different villages producing wine in Burgundy, and each of them are producing at what is called the village level. So if you go into a store and you see, like, NUI Saint George, that means that it is from the village of NUI Saint George village appolated vineyards. But then within that village appallation, you have vineyards that have an especially high prestige. So those are Premier Cru vineyards. And you can have individually labeled Premier Cru vineyards. So, like, famous one, Chambon musigny, Les Amateurs, the lovers. Really gorgeous pinot noir, super light and lacy, but it is a single premier crew. But then if you own land in a bunch of premier crews in a single village, you can put it all together into a big vat, blend it all up, and create a premier crew that represents the village as a whole. Oh, interesting. So it doesn't have to be directly from one vineyard as long as all the vineyards were in that village. Yep. Okay. I did not know that. And we have about 660 premier crew. Just a few. Just a few. But then above that, you have 33 individual appellations. So individually independent of the whole Burgundian region, Appalachians that are all Grand Cruises. And they all have their own rules and their own yields and their own soil types, and they produce their own specific styles of wine. And knowing those is kind of the way that you get into burgundy is, like, if you wanna start to study burgundy, start studying the Grand Cruise, and that gets you accustomed to how the villages work because you need to know that someplace like is every shambutan has the most grand cruise as 9. But sometimes those grand cruise have borders that crossover. So, like, if you're growing grapes in Chambutan Clot de Bez, you could label them as Chambutan Clot de Bez on your label as a Grand Cru, or you could call it Chambertin. So it kinda depends on what you want in those situations. Is Chambertin is that a Grand Cru as well? Yep. Wow. Okay. Okay. And then most of the famous villages in Burgundy have the name of their most famous Grand Cru vineyard attached onto the end. So used to be until 18 78 when they petitioned the king to be like, hey. We think that our wine is super awesome, so we should get the permission to include on our name. I I was like, okay. And so you also have, like, Chambon Musingni Musingni, most famous, Von Romanae, Romanae, Conti, or I mean, there's so many Romanee's in Von Romanee. So that's why it's like you see these words, and they look familiar, and and you see them in multiple different areas, but they mean something different because they're essentially taking what was just, like, the name of the village. And then they're like, yeah. But there's this great grand cru vineyard next to us, and it's, you know, it's well known. Let's see if we can put basically add that to our name so then more people look at us, kind of. Yep. And then just to clarify, the Grand Cru, are they specifically, like, vineyards, or are they larger than a vineyard, each of the Grand Cru regions? So they can be itty bitty to really big. So La Romanae is a monopole in Von Romanae. It is not only the smallest appellation in Burgundy. It is the smallest single appellation in France. It's about 0.86 hectares, so it's little over an acre. Okay. Wow. And that's decided that that is the best wine versus, like, the acres surrounding it or not. Yeah. Well, I mean, the acres surrounding it are also like Romanee Conti, Romanee Saint de Vavante. Right across the street, you have La Grand Brut, then you have Latoche. So you have a bunch of Grand Crus around it. Oh, so they're all okay. So they're each, like it's just like a a puzzle work of Grand Crus kinda each around surrounding each other. Yep. Okay. And then you have something like Corton, which is the entire hillside of the Corton Hill, which is one Grand Cru. So in terms of, like, the Grand Crues and how they were decided, was it primarily, like, one, like, they made great wine? We already didn't know that from the monks, you know, deciding on that. But after that, was it politics? Was it family? How did these get decided, and are they still being made? It was the monks and then it was politics, and they're not gonna be making anymore. They're pretty much set. A lot of the people who are producing at top tiers in premier cruise that are like, well, why don't we just promote, like, close Saint Jacques to make it a Grand Cruze? They're like, no. We don't want to be. There's already 9 Grand Cruze in Gevrey Chamblaton. Us producing Gevrey Chamblaton Clos Saint Jacques, people know that that is, like, one of the preeminent premier crews. So it's like, I would rather be first among this ranking than just mixed in with the everybody else in the Grand Cru setting. So nobody really wants more, unless I suppose you have an area that isn't as well known. But even then, you just attach it to a more well known, and you just be the best in your category. Yep. But Okay. New premier crews are always being debated. Marsinet, in particular, is always petitioning every year to get some premier crews included in their Appalachian because Marsdenet actually used to produce the most expensive wine in Burgundy. But when hits, everything changed and they switched over to satiating the cafe culture. So they started making rose, And that's actually the only appellation in Burgundy that can produce white, red, and rose at a village level. Interesting. And that was say that the region again, Marsinae? Marsinae. Interesting. Okay. So now talking about all these different, you know, the class stations. So we have, like, I always think of it like a pyramid, you know, you have the the burgundy level at the very bottom, just anything labeled Burgone, burgundy, then you have the village, which I was gonna ask you too. So these are named by the name of the village. Will it ever say village on it anywhere? Nope. It'll just say that you just have to know that that the village is producing wine. Okay. And then the Premier Cru and Grand Cru. Now these, I've noticed, do tend to have, like, the like, Premier Crew will be labeled by the name of the Premier Crew, but it'll also have, like, one ER crew written on it Yep. And then typically grand crew. Is that general across the board or only some of them do that? Premier crew, they'll either write it out as premier or they'll do the one e r. Especially if it's if it's a long name of a premier crew, they'll put the one e r. Sure. And that's always attached to the village. Okay. Grand crew, always just labeled as Chambutan Clot De Bez Grand Crew. Romani Conti Grand Cru. Alright. So at least those are a little easier. So, you know, if it's basically, I'm trying to think, like, if you're shopping for burgundy, like, obviously, ask for help. It's your your best bet. But Yeah. If you can't, your next step is if you're looking at the bottle and it's labeled some region or village and it doesn't say anything else, it's village level. Now if it says that plus premier cru or grand cru, right? I'm thinking for all the people who don't wanna have to memorize all the different villages and Grand Cruises, then if it's labeled something plus premier crew or Grand Cru, you know that it's that and not village. Absolutely. Okay. Alright. That's something. And then if it's just Burgundy, we know it's just Burgundy. So Yeah. Okay. So we're talking about the different classifications. As someone who's spent a lot of time in Burgundy and a lot of time studying this, do you think the Grand Cru wines are worth the hype? Like, are they worth the money? Like, are they actually the best burgundy that you can get? Yes and no. Okay. So a lot of these Grand Cruises, the smaller ones or the ones that are further up on the hillside tend to be really good. But sometimes, you have really big Grand Cru, and you can get a lot of variability. Clot de Beaujeu is probably the easiest example of this. It is the largest Grand Cru in the Cotonou. It's this big, huge walled vineyard that was built by the Cistercians. And it goes all the way from, like, the middle part of the slope down to the road. And so people kind of are like, well, is roadside wine really at a Grand Cruise status? Because right across the street is Begonia Regional, Appalachian. Okay. That's wild. Yeah. So it's like so is it really but then you drink some of these wines, and it is an experience. I mean, I got to have I've had very few Grand Cruises, but the Grand Cruises that I've had are all amazing wines. I think the trick is just to learn how how to find that regional wine that's across the street from from the Grand Cruisers. Like, I've also heard people call them, like like, baby Grand Cruisers or baby Premier Cru where it's like the vineyard next to one of those well known or one of the premier cru or grand cru vineyards. Do you think those are like is that like a good technique as well? Yeah. I mean, there's plenty of vineyards in Burgundy that are labeled that have their own names and have their names legally allowed to be put on a label. So, like Le Agile in Chambal Musigny is just on the backside of the slope from from Musigny. So it's just a little bit of a difference. Or, like, if you wanna drink Montrachet, but you don't have $10,000 laying around As most of us don't. Whole there's a whole backside of the Montrachet Hill is in the Saint Au Bonn village appellation, and that's all premier crew. And, I mean, they're very difficult to find in the United States, but if you find Saint Au Bonn premier crew, it is exquisite and usually, like, maybe a $100. Oh, wow. What a difference. Yeah. Okay. So we're kinda talking about different burgundy wines. Do you have any tips for buying burgundy wine? And especially I am gonna kinda center this in the US. And we we talked a little bit about reading the label, but, you know, kind of attached to that, how to read the label and how to get good burgundy wine. So if you wanna get into burgundy and just kind of, like, learn about drinking it, Start with Mecanet really easy. Drink stuff like, all of those are gonna be super value driven. They're gonna be less than $50 for the most part. Then if you wanna start drinking in the, I recommend going with villages that aren't as well known. So places like in the very north, Santenay in the very south of the Cote d'Or are both super amazing villages and produce exquisite wine or places like Saint Au Bon. You're probably not gonna find any OC duress in the states, but that's a really cool value village. And then just start working into what type of flavor profiles you want. So my favorite comparison is Palmar and Volnais. These are 2 red wine producing appellations just south of bone. Is like super structural and dense and gets in your face. And then Volney is like light and floral and really totally different styles of Pinot Noir. So just figure out what you enjoy drinking and find the premier cruise that are in there, and you can drink so much variability in Premier Cru wines coming from these areas too. I like the idea of the comparison of, like, finding because like we said, it's in Burgundy, it's mostly pinot noir and chardonnay besides those few spots of other grapes. But even just in the two villages, you know, not far apart from each other, they're gonna produce a totally different style of Burgundy. Yep. And it's so important to learn, yeah, what kind of style you like. And then my tip is always, yeah, once you figure that out, find that local wine shop that has a lot of good burgundy. I know there's one in Seattle for the local listeners. It's University Wines on Sandpoint, and they've got a great burgundy selection. Then you can start telling, you know, the person that you're buying the wine from, hey, I really like the pomade between those 2. Right? Mhmm. You know, what else? What are the other ones I should try? What direction should I go in? And they're basically kinda your steward through the world of wine, and all you had to do was kinda figure out what you liked. Yeah. And hate to say this, but finding a good wine store is definitely important because your average wine distributor network doesn't sell burgundy actively. So Interesting. In the last 6 months of working at my current job, I think I've brought in 20, 25 different burgundies on closeout deal from by distributors. Really? Are people just not drinking burgundy as much? No. It's not that people aren't drinking burgundy. It's that the distributor doesn't know doesn't have the network to sell, like, all these Premier Crews. So I see it on the closeout list. I'm like, oh, yeah. I'm definitely gonna buy 3 cases of premier crew bone for$35 a bottle a whole ton. Oh my gosh. Dang. Yeah. Alright. Find that wine shop. Get them get them bringing in the the wines. And okay. So the next question I'm asking, I didn't have it on the list I sent over to you, but, I'm actually planning to visit Burgundy in the fall. And so I'm curious if you have any tips for people traveling to Burgundy, how to make the most of the experience. Hire a tour company and send your emails to Negociance, like, 3 months before you go. Okay. And tell me again, negociance. I'm learning more about them, but what what are negociance? So negociance basically came about after the Napoleonic code of inheritance. So all these families, which are all farming families, they had big plots of land, but then they had to start doing equal inheritance amongst all their family members. So you get subdivisions and subdivisions and subdivisions and subdivisions, and they're not able to produce a full yield of wine. So they started selling their grapes to larger corporations, basically. Okay. And these negotiations, basically because they they make wine. Are they given are they given the grape juice or the wine or both? Now they're given the grapes more often. Oh, okay. But they used to just buy they used to buy must or already fermented wine. Okay. But now they're more so actually buying the grapes and making the wine themselves? Yep. So the best places that you can get into because Burgundians are very nice, but they're inhospitable in terms of giving tours. Do not expect to go go to burgundy and go into like a tasting room like you do in Napa or anywhere in the United States, because they don't care. They sell a 100% of their wine every year. They don't need you coming in and becoming part of their wine club. Sure. They don't they're not working for you. Yeah. So that's that's the best advice that I can give just having lived there. Yeah. Because we would we sent, like, thousands of emails to producers just being like, can we just, like, we're students in a master's program in Burgundy. Like, we would love to come. They're like, no. We don't care. Wow. Okay. So your best bet is actually because it's so funny because I saw, like, a bunch of tour companies and I'm like, do I do that? Because, like, that's the thing that I'm always, like, hesitant to do in the US because they always go to, like, the same wineries. Right? Or you don't get that same experience. Because in the US, I could just email a winery and be like, hey, can I come visit? But it sounds like in Burgundy, that's the way to go to to hire somebody who can take you through this tour. And then, also, you said emailing the negotiations. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, like, Jadot, Boissey, Bouchard all have really good touring facilities. Champie is definitely so Maison Champie, it's in bone. It is the oldest continuously functioning winery in burgundy. They have an amazing, like, wine tourism thing. Their fermentation room was built by Eiffel. Dang. So Eiffel Tower Eiffel built their fermentation room. Is that what I'm am I thinking the right thing? I was like, I don't wanna sound silly, but that's what it made me think. Okay. Because Eiffel was from Burgundy, so he was a Burgundian. Nice. So excited now. Okay. And then, do you recommend, like, in terms of where to stay, is, like, Bonn the place to go? I would stay in bone, especially if you're going just for the if you're going there for wine, go to bone. Dijon, I love Dijon. It is this really cool old medieval city, but you have to drive a lot or you gotta take the train to be able to get and if you're in bone, you're in the middle of the vineyards, you have quick jump ups to any place that's around. Perfect. Okay. I had I'm glad I asked. That was perfect. I'm like, now I know what to do for my planning. Okay. For, folks that wanna learn more about burgundy, do you have any resources you'd recommend? I mean, Jasper Morris, Inside Burgundy, if you feel like reading a 5,000 page book. Have you read the book? Did you did you enjoy it? Is it a good resource book? Oh, it's an amazing resource. Clive Coates, Wines of Burgundy is also an exquisite, these are both masters of wine who have devoted themselves to studying burgundy. Just doing French wine scholar really gives you kind of, like, first grasp that you need on what's going on in burgundy. And then there's a couple of, like, little small guidebooks on the Cote D'or that you can find on Amazon. I can't remember them off the top of my head, but just like Cote D'or and their little, like, breakdowns of what's going on with these wine villages, that kind of stuff. And then obviously, we'll plug your Instagram over at drinks with Alex Lopez. I know you kinda finished up your burgundy education source, but even just going back and looking through all of that, I'm sure folks can learn a lot, and I'm sure you'll talk about burgundy again on there. Oh, yeah. No. I'm gonna be doing at for the next year, I'm doing an Appalachian every week, and every month, I'm gonna do a different burgundy Appalachian. Oh, perfect. Well, yeah, go follow him on Instagram at drinks with Alex Lopez, and I'll have it in the show notes as well. But alright. We've made it to the last bit of the interview, and we're going back to just about you. These don't have to be burgundy related, but this is what I call my speed round. And, basically, just don't think about the answers too much. Otherwise, you might be thinking for too long, essentially. Like, the first thing that comes to mind is what I'm looking for. Yep. Okay. So what is your favorite wine at the moment? So my favorite wine at the moment, I've been drinking a lot of Chablis Uh-huh. And a lot of Montagnier. So, basically, the book ending Chardonnay regions of Burgundy. Been drinking a ton of Gardennay. Nice. Okay. How about a favorite wine region that you've ever visited? The Moselle Valley was amazing to visit, and Alsace. Alsace, both the riesling producing regions are just so picturesque and amazing and so cute. Oh my gosh. That makes me oh, it's it makes it even harder. When I'm going to France, I'm planning on doing Loire, Burgundy, injura, but a part of me really wants to go to Alsace, sauce, but I just don't know if I have time. It's like it is going to Beauty and the Beast. Alright. Maybe. We'll see. We gotta we gotta see if there's time. Okay. How about a wine region you'd like to visit that you haven't visited yet? Anywhere in Australia. I'd really like to go to, like, the Barossa Valley, Adelaide Hills, and then also New Zealand, Marlborough, and Central Otago. Yeah. I mean, if you're gonna do one of those, you gotta do the other while you're there. Okay. How about a favorite wine and food pairing? So my favorite wine to pair with food is just sherry in general. So sherry there's so many different styles of sherry that I could talk about it for, like, 3 hours, but sherry is the perfect food wine, period. You can have it with your appetizers. You can have it with your desserts. It goes across all spectrums of everything, and I can talk about it forever, and I love it so much. Dang. I definitely need to have a sherry episode on the podcast. We did it in my, in the court crew virtual tasting club and learned a little bit about sherry, but there's so much. And then we did a, like, a full tasting. And I bought one of those, like, 6 packs where it's, like, the different styles, and it's amazing all the different, like you said, styles. And, like, it definitely Sherry's one of those that, like the sweet version, I, like, easily love. It's great. It's rich. It's it's not like it's like syrupy in the best way. I say that, and I'm sure it, like, turns some people away. But it's delicious. The dry versions take a second. They're definitely different, but I hear what you're saying as well where, like, anytime I had a little bit of food with it, it was like, woah. What what is that? What is happening? Yeah. Yeah. They're they're funky wines for sure. Yeah. I think funky is a great is a great term. Okay. Last question. How about people wanting to get into wine but don't have a lot of money to spend on a bottle? What would you say is, like it doesn't have to be a specific bottle. It can be, like, a style as well. Best bottle of wine under $15. I have been just moving through Loire Valley Cabernet Franc, like, caseloads recently, and they're all around 15, $16. Places like Burgoy and Chino, and you can get some really great value Cab Franc or Chenin Blanc from the Loire Valley. The Loire Valley is awesome for value. I agree. They have some great wine at some great price. Alright. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Alex, for joining and for sharing all your knowledge on Burgundy. It's always nice to, get to hear from an expert and, you know, all all that on a very difficult wine region. I feel like that was a great little intro for for folks listening in. Yeah. It was a genuine pleasure. Now I just gotta wait for my test results to get back. Yes. Yeah. We'll all be we've all got our fingers crossed and wishing the best for you. Yep. Alright. Have a great rest of your evening, Alex. Cheers. Thank you. You as well. Doesn't burgundy just sound wonderful? I cannot wait to visit in September and tell you all about it once I'm back. And how about Alex? If you haven't already, be sure to follow him on Instagram. His handle is at drinks with Alex Lopez. If you loved this episode as much as I did, I would so appreciate it if you take a quick second to rate it and leave a review. And if you know a wine lover in your life that would enjoy this, please share it with them. It would mean the world to me. In next week's episode, I'll be doing a topic that was asked for by one of my core crew members. I'll be sharing some up and coming wine regions that I think you should have your eye on. Thanks again for listening. And as a thank you, I'd like to share my free shopping guide, 15 wines under $15. Simply head to my website, korkandfizz.com, scroll down to the bottom, and join the mailing list. Cheers.