Croatian Wine: Exploring Indigenous Grapes and Unique Flavors w/ Jennifer Kerum

Ep 58

When we think of wine, countries like France, Italy, and Spain often come to mind as the leading producers of the world's finest vintages.



However, tucked away in the heart of Europe lies a hidden gem waiting to be explored - Croatia.



We are talking about ancient vineyards, indigenous grapes, unique flavor profiles, the history of winemaking in Croatia and so much more.



And leading us through this amazing region is Jennifer Kerum. Jennifer is the go-to wine expert for Croatian wine. She is the product of a Californian mom and Croatian dad who instilled a love for both cultures in her. And it was this love of her Croatian culture which led her to her love of Croatian wine.



So, if you are ready to learn about the vibrant wine culture of Croatia press play and let's go!

Resources

• Croatian Premium Wine - https://www.croatianpremiumwine.com/
• Ep 39 Why you should visit Walla Walla - https://www.corkandfizz.com/wine-blog/guide-to-wine-podcast-episode-39
• Ep 15 Brooke Delmas interview - https://www.corkandfizz.com/wine-blog/guide-to-wine-podcast-episode-15

Offers from Jennifer Kerum:

• Email sail@anchorcroatia.com to join the Food and Wine Cruise for 2580 EURO per person and mention this podcast. Price is good until the cabins are sold out
• Receive 20% off a customized sailing trip when mentioning the Cork & Fizz Guide to Wine podcast
• Receive 20% off Wine Tours in Croatia when mentioning the Cork & Fizz Guide to Wine podcast

Connect with Jennifer Kerum

• Website - https://www.anchorcroatia.com/

• Instagram - @theanchorcroatia

Episode Highlights:

• Jennifer Kerum - expert in Croatian wine

• Unique qualities of Croatian wines

• Major grape varietals grown in Croatia and its wine classification system

• Travel tips for Croatia

• Croatia’s protected grape-growing areas and the prevalence of white wine

• Specific Croatian wine regions, grape varieties and where to find them

• Unique qualities of Croatian grapes

• Croatia’s ancient vineyards

Transcript

0:00

Let's start first with kind of an intro. Who are you and what do you do? Oh, gosh. That's a hard question. So what do I do and who am I? I guess it depends on the day. So, which is actually a true story. I was gonna say, actually, now that I think about it for you, yeah, that's that's a good fit. It actually depends on the day. So I grew up with a Croatian father and an American mother. And so I was kind of the product of 2 worlds or, I guess, like a global child, as you can say. So I actually got to grow up, on the Adriatic Sea in Croatia, which was amazing, like, every single summer. I don't think I appreciated it as a kid, to be honest with you. I mean, you were just used to it. You're like, this is what I do. This is part of my home. Right? Well, the other the other problem was is this so we would go to Croatia, and, like, my school would start in September, typically. And so we go to Croatia, we go to the village and where, you know, my grandmother was and my aunt was. And actually, it kind of ties into wine because I remember it was like right before I would leave Croatia, we would always have to go and have a whole day of wine picking. Worst day of my life. Every single time you're hot and you're tired and your feet, like, you're covered in dirt and mud and bugs and mosquitoes. You're like, this is not fun. I don't get this. Why do people like wine? I know. It's so, actually, true story. My thoughts of wine growing up was just that the association of just, like, hard work, not enjoyment at all. But I knew going back so I grew up kind of in both worlds between the US and Croatia. And my parents also started their own film and television catering company. So I grew up in film. So half of the year, I actually work in film. The other half of the year, I own a yacht company in Croatia. And I also have I just recently opened a wine tour business in Croatia. And to add on top of it, I have a food and wine cruise in Croatia. So many exciting things. I love it. Like I said, it depends on the day and what I do. You know, you just you you put on your different hats. Exactly. I have multiple hats. Yes. I love it. Okay. Well, let's dive in a little bit deeper. So I I do love that we kinda started this off. You're like, okay. Wine just equals hard work. As a kid, it didn't make sense. What was it that kind of, like, turned the page or turned the table for you, and what sparked your interest in wine to dive deeper into it? Well, honestly, I grew up in California, And, you know, California has amazing wine regions as you know. And in my twenties, personally, I hated beer. So what did I do and go out and drink? And so wine kind of piqued my interest, and I realized that I fell in love with these big, bold, luscious Napa Valley. And, when I moved to New York City, I was constantly chasing that kind of taste, everything, but I had a hard time describing what I wanted, you know, when I went out. It was kind of like it was like, I want this wine, but how do I tell people? Yes. And I'm sure you come across that too, Hailey. Right? Like, when you're teaching about wines and everything, it's like, how do you explain the flavor that you want? Yeah. I find, like, most people are like, I know what I like. How do I explain that to anybody? Like, getting those words is one of the hardest things. Exactly. Exactly. So when I was in New York, and I have an even crazier background because I actually came from medical school too. So You'll, like, stick around for the long long version. We'll have that as the extended cut and then Break this podcast up into different ones. I'm like, what time of year? What anyway. Yeah. I wanted to communicate. I wanted to talk about wine. I wanted to find the wines that I love. So I ended up going to ICC at the time that was here, and they had a sommelier course. And, I learned everything that there is to be learned about wines. And then I remember coming back that next summer after I had all this knowledge, and I was drinking wine in Croatia. And I was like, my god. The wine here is delicious. Why did anyone tell me? Which is a lie. Fair. Fair. You're like well, because one, nobody in the US knew that the Croatian wine was so good. Exactly. Like, no one knew it was so good, and the other problem is my association with wine was harmful. Yeah. No. There's there's definitely a depending on how you see it there. I do wanna spend plenty of time talking about Croatian wine, but first, I have to ask about the yacht business. Like, how does one get into the yacht business, and what is it like? So my story, I never, like, if I could say what I wanted to do when I grew up, I never thought yachts. My story is a love story, actually. I know. Oh, that's so cute. Definitely a boy meets girl kind of situation. So I obviously fell in love with Croatia growing up and then re fell in love with it in my 20s. And I would spend a month at a time in Croatia. And I'd always was thinking in the back of my head, like, how can I do this forever? Right? You can't just be in a country every single year for the rest of your life without doing some sort of job. I mean, I hope possible. I mean, unless you can be a trust fund baby, in which case that sounds wonderful, but, not the case for all of us. Not the case for me at all. So I went to Croatia 1 summer, and I fell in love with a boy there. And I was actually living at Australia during the time, and we were actually I remember this so clearly. So we were sitting on choir on the rocks, ironically drinking a glass of wine. And it was I didn't just say an ultimatum. It was basically a conversation of, like, okay, Jennifer. Like, we've just had the most magical summer together. Right? You know, it was one of those boy meets girl, girl runs away, girl comes back. You know, the end, it's kinda like, what are we gonna do here? And it was kind of born on the shores of Hvar while drinking a glass of wine. He had been working in the yachting industry for 10, 15 years. And I knew that I loved Croatia, and I liked the idea of being on a yacht and drinking a glass of wine. I mean, who doesn't like that idea? We started there. I knew nothing about yachts. I knew that I loved Croatia. And then that year when I started cleaning and sanding books before the season, I was like, this is nothing like drinking a glass of wine. They lied to you. I will say, there's a saying in the boating world. They say the 2 best days of your life is the day you buy your first boat, then the day that you sell it. That's fair. That's fair. You know, you've really fallen into those worlds of, like, the because there's the the saying in the wine world of, like, how do you make a small small fortune in wine? You start with a large fortune. Oh, there you go. Yeah. So you you really found those two industries, didn't you? It is true. It is true. And then from there, we kind of created this, like, beautiful marriage between yawning and wine. And until now, where I've literally created a complete separate company that's just focused on wine. Yeah. Well, that kind of brings me into that next question. I was curious if it sounds like, I mean, even just from a kid, you initially had this, you know, passion for travel and that extended into adulthood, and now you have that interest in wine. Do you feel like those are very well connected? A 100%, like, differently. Wherever I go to, I travel quite a bit. You know, I'm traveling every 3 to 4 days. And because of work, not just because I'm a crazy person who travels. Hey. That's not crazy. That's just you you taking advantage of having fun. Definitely. And one of the first things I like to do is I like to go to a place, and I will look up the local wineries. Like, that's a huge thing for me. I mean, I was just in New Mexico. And have you called New Mexican wine before? It's on my list. I don't well, no. Wait. I have. I've had the New Mexico that sparkling wine, Gruy or whatever it is. Yeah. I feel great. So we do a lot. So me too. Like, so I've tried, you know, sparkling wine before, and I was just in Albuquerque. And, obviously, I looked up what wineries when you're buying. And I went to there's one called, Sheehan, I think. Oh, I'm probably butchering the name. I tried their Syrah and their Cabernet Sauvignon, and it was insanely delicious. Wow. One of the fascinating things for me about their hab, specifically, was it almost tastes like amarone. It had a lot of, like, rice. It had a lot of, like, those dried aspects, like those, you know, dried plums and raisins. I asked them. I said, why is this wine what it is? And one of the most fascinating things that they told me was, basically, it gets really hot in, New Mexico. So it actually tends to burn the grapes a little bit, like, physically burn the grapes. And so that's why a lot of times they'll get kind of, like, that raisiny kind of essence on their caps. Oh, interesting. Okay. I like that they're leaning into it. They're just like this happened, so we can't control the weather, and we're just gonna see what we can do with it in the in the wine making. Exactly. So traveling in wine is, like, is life for me, essentially. Oh, so fun. I do wanna make sure we say, your yacht business. It's called Anchor Croatia. Correct? It's called Anchor Croatia. So my yacht business is called Anchor Croatia. And another thing that we do is or I do specifically, is I do a food and wine cruise. Yes. And one of those is coming up. Right? Yes. I'm so excited about it. So it's August 24th to 31st, and, we go from Dubrovnik to Split. So are you a fan of Game of Thrones at all, Hayley? Oh, yes. Yes. Absolutely. So Dubrovnik is actually King's Landing. Fun fact. That is so freaking cool. I'm so mad. The only reason I'm not going on this trip, I love my parents. My mom always listen to this podcast. I love you, mom, but they are visiting during that time that you I know. Are doing this. Otherwise, this sounds so amazing. And and how freaking cool is that? You'd be like, I get food and wine in Croatia, plus I get to pretend that I'm in Game of Thrones for a second. Oh, exactly. And so it's really for me too, too, like, there's other cruises in Croatia, but, like, none of them is really focused on the flavors and the authenticity of the country. So one of my personal favorite things about the country in general is just is the food. Like, it's something like even something eating something simple as, like, a tomato there. You know? It's like, it's the best tomato ever. All this cruise, we get to island hopping. You get to literally jump right off the ship into, like, the most beautiful picturesque water. We visit seaside towns. We actually get to go to a 3rd generation owned restaurant on the sea, and we eat everything from his garden, fresh caught fish that day, and, of course, his homemade wine. Wonderful. That sounds so fun. Bring your parents. There we go. Man, I can I can barely get my dad to Seattle? Let alone if I'm like, dad, we're going to Croatia. One day. One day, we'll make it out there. But I will make sure for those that are listening, this should release. You'll still have plenty of time to do that. Just, you know, go on an adventure. Have fun. We'll put the link in the description so folks can learn more about it. Now before we leave talking about Croatia and the your travel and all of this, because we're gonna do our deep dive into the wine. During the Walla Walla trip, as I mentioned in the intro, Jen, that's how we met. Jen joined me in Walla Walla for that trip. And oddly enough, like, I can't believe this happened. 1 of the other guests was doing a honeymoon in Croatia. Like, what were the odds? It was just one of those where it's like, oh, what a small world. But you shared such amazing tips, and I don't want you to give everything away. Right? This is your it's your job. This is your livelihood. But I thought maybe we take advantage. If you could give us, like, maybe, like, your top three tips other than come on my food and wine cruise, which is, like, the top tip. But after that, your top three tips for traveling to Croatia. Because I feel like it's getting to the top of people's list these days. Like, people want to visit. Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting too. So when I was a kid, no one knew where Croatia was. And I had to explain it as, like, the country next to Italy. So but these days, I I say that I'm half Croatian, and it really is a sexy place to go to. Well, first of all, there's 1244 islands off the coast of Croatia. Yeah. I know. But Wow. Wow. Yeah. So I guess my first tip about Croatia, I'm actually heading there tomorrow, is don't squeeze everything in. What I tend to find with people who come there is especially from the states and it's understandable. You're traveling across the world and you only have maybe a week and they try to do so much stuff. But the problem is is that there's so much to do and see in Croatia, and you'll just spend too much time traveling. A lot of people will do the Dubrovnikwar split kind of bucket list. I would stick to 2 different places, and, there's actually a Croatian word called fika, and it means the art of doing nothing. I love that, and I also know I would have such a hard time doing that. That's really you really wanna experience Croatia in my opinion. I think you just need to slow it down. That's the culture. Like, for example, when you go to Croatia, people will sit for a coffee, one coffee for 3 hours. Dang. Yes. Yes. Yes. So my first tip would be come to Croatia, but don't overpopulate your itinerary. Really enjoy it. Go to the sea. Eat delicious food. My second tip is so we're used to sandy beaches, right, in in the United States. They are small pebbles over there. So I'm used to walking on them, but on the Americans, it's not the same. It's a good thing to call out. Wasn't, the the gal that was on the trip. She was like, so bringing water shoes. Is that dorky or should I do it? It's sounding like it's a yes. Feels like, you know what, for your mental health and body, bring it. And who knows? Maybe you've built up the calluses and you'll be fine, but you'll be so much more thankful that you have them. Exactly. Exactly. And then my 3rd tip really just focuses around food. Just try everything there. I would even go as far as get out of the main town. Like, if you go to Dubrovnik, I don't like to eat in the old town. I get out of the old town. And there's these things called konabarovsk. And that's where everything is just homemade. You're gonna get, like, homemade olive oil, homemade cheese, and just everything locally sourced. So eat everything, try all of the wine because you won't be able to find it in the United States, and leave with at least 12 bottles. I like that. That's great advice. Alright. Before we get to this is our last question before we get into our Croatian wine deep dive. I usually save it for the end, but like I said, I wanna kinda Yeah. Go to the second half all be about Croatian wine. We talked about the cruise, but just maybe, like, looking down the line, I feel like this is always a fun question, especially for someone like you where you're, like, entrepreneur mindset doing lots of different things and have all these ideas. What's next for you? Anything new on the horizon or anything new you'd like to do, but you maybe just haven't set in motion yet? Well, actually, I'm really haven't told anyone this except for my partners. This is actually huge. I'm actually currently writing a book about Croatian life. No way. Ah, it's so exciting. Yeah. And, I was gonna save this for later, but I'm just telling you no. And, I'm real I'm hoping to get it out in the next year. And, because what I found is when I was doing my own research, you know, couple, you know, years ago, there wasn't a lot of resources on Croatian wine. And there is some, but it's more focused towards, like, a traveler coming to Croatia and experiencing. But for wine people or wine professionals who wanna, like, deep dive on, like, the terroir and the soil and the temperature and the microclimate, It doesn't exist. So it's a thing that I'm doing, and I'm really fit. Ah, that's so cool. Oh my gosh. I can't wait. That is exactly what I I love seeing those. I have one. Jane Lopes just put one out on Australia because it was kind of the same thing. She's like, there are maybe some guides out there, you know, we get a bunch of Shiraz from Australia, blah blah blah. She's like, there is so much more happening here, and no one has written the book that says, like, you know, here's, like, your basics when you wanna learn about it. Or, like, I just did a tasting on, Lebanese wine, Lebanon. And trying to find information on wines from Lebanon was very challenging. Even, like, my go to resources, I mean, the wine bible, things like that, they didn't have much on it at all. I know. I'm actually excited to get into the history of wine about Croatia because it will kind of reflect on why it's like that. But I do agree. I think on some of the more unknown regions, and maybe that is because of access to the line. There isn't a lot of resources. And so my goal is in the next year so hopefully, in the year from now, we'll have another podcast. It's not fun. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm I'm scheduling it in right now, so I'm gonna hold you to it. That could be done by then, and then you could hope to come on my food and wine cruise. Yes. Absolutely. I'm loving all of this. We've got it all planned out. Okay. Great. What we'll do is we'll you'll read the book, and we'll just dial and pop and try all the wines. And there we go. Perfect. Alright. This is our perfect segue then into let's talk Croatian wide. And I figured we'll kind of start I always like to start at the beginning. So, like, basically, what do you think folks would be surprised to hear? Well, first of all, folks, I think some would be surprised that there is a lot of wine in Croatia. They've maybe maybe heard of it, but, like, even, I mean, even for me as a wine expert, I mean, I've heard of, like, Slovenia and, like, Lebanon and Georgia, but but not really Croatia much. Can you start with, like, maybe just a little history and, like, your short intro of, like, what would you tell people is the world of wine in Croatia? Yeah. So one of the fascinating things to me is that Croatia has one of the oldest wine regions. So it goes back to the Illyrian tribes that came. And after that, it was the Greeks, and they came to the islands of Vis, and Korcula and Huar. And fun fact, on the island of Huar is a town called Stadegrad, and it's one of the oldest towns in all of Europe. And beyond that, it's one of the oldest places where they planted planted wine for over 24 2,400 years. Wow. So there is actually a huge history of wine and wine making. Like I said, going back from the Greeks and the Romans. In fact, on island of Bismar, there's vineyards that have never even been touched by phylloxera. So I guess that makes sense with it, because it's an island. Right? So it'd be hard for the phylloxera to get there. Exactly. Exactly. So especially this. So there is a grape on this called boogaba, and it's an indigenous grape on Viz Island. And you have vineyards that have been there for more than 24100 years. Really? And even, like, so there are people tending to those vineyards and making wine out of the vines. Correct. I mean, obviously, throughout the years, they've done all kinds of pruning and all these other things and stuff like that. But yeah. It's the same location. A lot of times, same families, past due generations. So for me, when I'm talking about Croatian wine, it's like, basically, you have to talk about politics because unfortunate, but it's the reality of the situation. Croatia could have been one of the most important producers as much as Italy or France, just because of where it's located, because of its climate. I mean, especially in Dalmatia, you have very warm summers, mild winters. So many grapes can grow there. It's amazing terrain. So much sunshine. But politics always goes back to politics. Yes. Yes. I've I've heard that a lot from, like, also, like, when I did the research into, like, Georgia or Lebanon too. There are places where, like, it I think does Croatia I know it's near Italy, so it's not as close to these regions, but I would still consider it part of, like, the ancient world when we think of, like, the different types of wine. Like, there's, like, the new world, which is everywhere besides Europe, essentially, where, like, grapevines were brought. Then there's the old world, which is Europe where we think of, like, where modern winemaking began, but then there's a time even before that where, like, true winemaking and, like, the very first vines, and that's the ancient world. And so does Croatia fit into that category? A 100%. Okay. So this is where it gets really interesting. So Croatia was a prominent producer of wine. In fact, even when it was the Austrian Hungarian empire, you know, wines from Croatia were being actually sought out and shipped all over. But the problem was in 1918 to 1991, it was under Yugoslavia. So it was under communist rule, and communism didn't allow for independent winemakers to sell wines. And so what happened was is if you were a farmer and you had owned these vineyards 100 of years, you had a choice. You could either basically continue to make wine for yourself and produce it for yourself, or you can sell it to the state. And that is exactly and that was that is the biggest problem. That is what's happened with Croatia, where to me it's so sad because it's like, it really is one of these ancient world places. It it still has I mean, there's today, there still exists about a 150 indigenous grapes. Before that, it was, like, like, estimated maybe 600 indigenous grapes existed in Croatia, and a lot of it got lost because of communism, because of war. But the cool side of that, like, the opposite side of that, and what's fascinating about Croatia is that even today, like, I would say 70% of families own their own vineyards, and they produce their own wines. And it goes back to the fact where wine is life in Croatia. It really is. I mean, my aunts, my boyfriend's parents, like, my grandmother, no, grows their own grapes to make wine. And, so when I say, yes, at the same time, we were Croatia was growing wine for mass production, the quality didn't disappear because families were still producing high quality wines, and those traditions were passed throughout the years. Wow. Yeah. So thankful for those people who did that, right, to, like, keep keep the wine around and and keep it, especially even though we lost a lot of indigenous varieties. A 150 is still a lot. Right? Yeah. Right. So I wanted that into the regions and the grapes, but I want us to kinda go in the direction. I'm gonna follow your lead here of, like, do you wanna start with, like should we think of Croatia as these, like, indigenous grapes first, or is it better to kind of explain by, like, region and where the grapes grow? I think talking about the indigenous grapes is really important. I think there's 2 huge reasons why people should care about Croatian wine other than the fact that it's fabulous. And I'm so gonna apologize for my pronunciation to any Balkan people who ever listen to this. My Hey. You gotta you gotta start somewhere. You're introing everybody to it. So anybody listening to this podcast, they could at least get a start to understanding the Croatian varieties and everything. So we're very grateful. So I can so I speak Croatian. I understand it, but my pronunciation is very bad for everything. And the thing is that it's very different from English because it's all consonants next to each other. So it's like it's bad. Anyways, so there is a grape called Surylianak. Okay. Yes. Surylianak. And it comes from a small village outside of Split, maybe, like, 15, 20 minutes away. It was brought by the Romans and long, long, long time ago, and then it went to Puglia in Italy. From Puglia in the 18 twenties, it went to Long Island, New York. From Long Island, New York, it made its way out west to California, and that grape is Zinfandel. I've heard about this. I've heard that Croatia is the true home. I used to think it was a spot a place in Italy, but it's Croatia. Nope. A lot of people thought that it was from Primitivo. So up in, you know, exactly from Italy. But UCSD did a their viticulture department did a huge study, and, yes, it is from a small village outside of Split in Kostula. And, it's actually the parent. There's another grape in Croatia called Plavatsmali, and it is the child of this grape. And, basically, all of the Findlay in the entire world comes from Croatia. Wow. So is the is the Primitivo just a, like is that that was the name that Italy gave it then? Exactly. Exactly. So that's, like exactly. So it went to Puglia. So from Croatia, it went to Puglia, and so Primitivo is the descendant from the creation original. Okay. Isn't that fun? That's so cool. Isn't it so fun? I'm like, so such a dork, but, like, you can see behind me I've got, like, the wine grapes, that huge massive thing. And I've I've been reading that and, like, all the connections between the wines. And especially because I swear, like, they're constantly changing because, like you said, they're starting to do these studies and the DNA things where they can actually dive into it where, like, some places claim they're the place that something is from, but then you actually do the DNA study and you're like, no. No. No. No. No. It's actually this, which is yeah. I I find that so. So what was the name of the the Croatian grape again? So it's syljanak. Syljanak. It's spelled like c r l j e n a k, syljanak. I see what you mean with all the consonants. My gosh. So that's the one reason why I think people should care about Croatian wine. And the second one goes back to I'm sure you've heard of Gorgich from Napa Valley. Yes. Yes. Okay. So Gorgich, basically, for like we talked about communism, he had left Croatia because his family had produced wine, and he wanted to be able to produce and sell wine freely. So he she brought clippings from Croatia, went to California in Napa Valley, and planted Chardonnay, because Croatia actually grows pretty good Chardonnay too. Planted Chardonnay, planted a whole bunch of stuff. And he went to the Paris tasting. Oh, I don't know the year, so I'm not even gonna pretend to say it. Like, I should know that too. It's, like, 1970 1970 something. I think, like, maybe it's 1972. We'll see it's 1972. The wine snobs can correct us in the comments. It's fine. We're we we know what we're talking about. And he won against all French wines, and it it it is because because of that that put Chardonnay from Napa Valley on the map in the wine world. And it was a and you said he brought Croatian grapevines over and, like, that's what he planted. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Wow. Very cool. Yeah. I know. So that's why I'm staying in Croatia, and it's only 4,000,000 people. So, like, a country of 4,000,000 people, they got some cool things to say. They do. They do. Okay. Let's dive into like, I know we can't go into all of them, but maybe let's call out. So I'm thinking, like, either grapes one that you think Croatia should be known for. Like, what are some that people should look out for when they're visiting Croatia? And then maybe even potentially I know you said it's hard to get Croatia in the US or outside of Croatia, but any of them that you've seen make their way out of Croatia that people could maybe be on the look out for if they're not able to move? Well, so I'll just say, first off, there's 16, like, protected areas in Croatia. Like or you can call them Appalachians or whatever you want. And, basically, in order to be called that area, you have to have, like, 85% of the grapes be from that specific area. So fun facts is that Croatia, 2 thirds of its grapes are actually white wines. And with Graslavina being one of the biggest, like, planting and selling of it, but it's actually not my favorite wine, so I'm not gonna talk about it. I just think it's interesting and good for people to know. Well, I mean, that's that's the case in, like it doesn't Spain have, like, Aran or something like that. It's like their I'm trying to think of how it's pronounced, but, like, it's a top white wine planted, but, like, nobody knows about it because it's not that exciting. One one that I really like in a region is IntelliJachts. So if you look at the map of Croatia, you have Northern Croatia, Southern Croatia, which is called Dalmatia. And in Dalmatia, you have a region of Peliachats. And on Peliachats, there is a grape called Plavatsmali. And like I had said earlier, Plavatsmali is actually the child, I guess you can say, of of, Zinfandel. And the wine that comes from Pellet Chat, specifically a region called Dhingraj, is just amazing. And I actually was trying to get you to taste it on this podcast, but we all know what happened with that. So hard to get wine sometimes. But since we can't taste it, I'm just going to tell you about how delicious it is, and I'll tell you a little bit about the region. So what makes D'ingoche so special is is that it's kind of like Mosel in in Germany, but a lot of them grow on a hillside. And so it gets direct sun all day long. In fact, like, some of the has everything has to be handpicked, and it's the same thing like Mosul. Sometimes it's, like, put you on ropes. It's like, big grapes. Seriously? No. I mean, I've seen those pictures, and I've heard from people. They're like, I had to hold the post to make sure I did not fall down when I was just, like, doing the tour. Honestly. Honestly. So it's that's one of the most coolest regions for me. And the plat basmati that comes from there just tends to be big and bold and velvety and dark fruits, and it's just so flipping good. And this is just to clarify, it's a red wine. Right? It is a red wine. Yes. It's a red wine. So, if you can definitely try Plavats moly, but specifically from Dingach, because Plavats moly can grow up anywhere. And if you get it on other areas, it's gonna be sometimes too tart for me. It's gonna have too much, like, bright raspberries. Just like, I don't like it. But if you get it from Dingbatsch, specifically, it's gonna have way more darker fruit. Actually, there is one producer that you can find in the United States, and it's called Matushko. And you can get it through Croatia premium wine online. And they do have a bottle of Plavatsmali Matushko Dhingach. So definitely try that because you can get it in the United States, and it is delicious. And then my other favorite grape to talk about comes from the island of Korcula. Korcula is my favorite place. You guys should all go for it. Like, I I feel like I've heard a lot about this, and this must just be, like, the conversations from the Walla Walla trip coming back. Yeah. Yes. First of all, everyone who's listening, Google. Google Portola. It's beautiful. And it's home to 2 indigenous grapes. One of them is called Porsche, and, Porsche tends to they're both white wines. Porsche tends to be a more fuller bodied wine. It has, like, some really nice, like, essence of apricots and green apple, and it's really delicious. And the other one is called Gurk. And Gurk is one of the most most Canadian grapes. It's also one of the hardest to grow grapes because it's all female pollinators. Yeah. Female you know, it's all female. So, basically, in order for the grape to grow, it has to be planted with another vine. Otherwise, it won't grow. Interesting. Are there other grapes that are like this? I've never really heard of this. I actually have no clue, but I know Gurk is like this. Yeah. Now we're gonna have to now I'm gonna have to look it up. I'm so curious. This is one of those things. You learn something new about wine every day. You can't possibly know it all. Exactly. So Gudk comes from a small village called Lumbarda, and Lumbarda is right on the water. And, it has sandy soil, which makes it really special to the area. And, yeah, it's you could basically only find it. This one little village on this one little island, It's one little part of the world, and it's very limited, very hard to get. But you can also come on a wine tour with me, and I could tell you about it personally. Feels very lucky because, my partner, Gabby, who actually is a sommelier from Bordeaux, and she moved to the island. And, we both love wine, so we've created this whole grape wine tour business because of it. But Gok is amazing. And, unfortunately, you have to just come to Croatia in order to try it. Got it. Okay. Fair enough. That's a good enough reason to go to Croatia. Well, it's good. I promise you. I'll give you a call. Sounds great. Okay. Perfect. Let's see here. I wanna know I'm like, I wanna know it all, but I also wanna, like, try to narrow it down. One of the questions that I had too, I was curious. So an indigenous grape, right, is the idea that it's it's a grape that's from that place. So when we're saying an indigenous grape of Croatia, it means that it started in Croatia. It wasn't brought from anywhere else. Exactly. Have you noticed so, like, when we think of a lot of grapes, like the indigenous grapes of Italy, they've been brought over to the US or, like, they've been brought over to Australia. Have you ever heard of people taking indigenous grapes of Croatia and growing them anywhere else? Or is it one of those things where, like, they're solely found in Croatia? So recently, I was in Russian River, and I was at this winery called Soonse. And ironically, the owner is Croatian. And it's funny because Soonse, it was so crazy. Basically, I was on my way driving to another winery, and I saw this big sun, because means sun. And I literally, like, screamed and made everyone stop in the car. And I was like, So turns out that he was. I, like, ran out of the car. It was this old little Croatian man, and, he came from, Croatia to the United States. And he's actually growing a grape called Teran. And, Teran comes from Istria, typically, and which is Northern Croatia. And, he told me that Teran grows really great in the Russian river valley. I had never heard of Tedan growing anywhere other than in Croatia. So, yeah, I don't know. I there's other than Zinfandel, I really haven't heard of a lot of Croatian grapes making it outside of the country. A lot of people think Malvasia, so they think, oh, because Northern Croatia too, so in Isidio region grows a lot of Malbazia. But it's actually genetically DNA completely different than what grows in Italy. Oh, interesting. Mhmm. I know. So even though it is called Malvasia, the DNA is completely different. So it's gonna make a totally different wine. Exactly. I I know. The max. Oh, so fun. Okay. I wanna know about you talk a lot about food and wine pairing. I'm going off script a little bit because I thought of this. I'm like, oh, why haven't I asked her this yet? Yeah. What about, like, pairings? When you're pairing wine and food in Croatia, like, what are some either, like, some favorite dishes that are just like, oh, I gotta grab this wine. It just goes with it perfectly. Or do you have more of a like, is the philosophy, like, whatever we find to to drink with whatever we're eating works well because that's just we make the wine for the food. Well, that's the other thing. You know, I always think going back to, like, traveling and wine, I think what you eat and what you drink is really reflective on the country. Right? And especially on the coast of Croatia, it's all about seafood. You're getting fresh caught fish and octopus and mussels and this just deliciousness. If you like seafood, it's delicious. So going back to example, like, guruk. So guruk tends to be like, when you're drinking it, you literally can taste, like, the seawater. It sounds funky. Like, it's literally like saline. Saline, there's even, like, a little bit of bitterness to it, but it pairs so perfectly with fish because of that kind of salty aspects of it. Lavazamal, for example, is a heavier wine, and it goes great with this dish in Croatia called pastisada. And pastisada is low cooked meat for, like, 2 days, ironically, in a red wine sauce. Paired with, like, homemade gnocchi, and it's, like, insane. In Northern Croatia, they're really known for truffles. And, actually so you have the white truffle, and it grows only 2 places in the world, Alba in Italy and in Istia. Wonderful. I know. Fun facts. I wonder they're so expensive. That's making sense now. I know. Well, you know what's crazy? I was in Istria a couple years ago, and the lady literally was taking her truffles and driving them to Venice and selling them to a restaurant in Venice. Dang. Yeah. I know. So I think the food and wine really pairs beautifully. And yeah. And it's culture. So, like, I go to my boyfriend's parents house for lunch on a Tuesday, and they have their own wine on the table. And they're like, Jennifer, have a glass or 2. And I'm like, it's lunch. It's 12 o'clock. It's a whole different a whole different philosophy when you're in Europe. It probably is, but it's normal. Like, it's not a big deal. It's like, what they're like, it's 2 glasses. Two glasses is nothing. It's good for your heart. And, clearly, they're doing something right over there. I think I think we should follow follow along in there. Alright. So we hit on we hit on some of the grapes, and you did say that they grow a lot of indigenous grapes. So you do find chardonnay. Are there any other kind of major grapes that people would know them that are grown in Croatia, like, that you would say do well? Yeah. I mean, Cabernet Sauvignon goes really well, Syrah. But the thing with Syrah, it tends to be brighter. It's not like a Rhone Bridle or even, something that you'll find maybe in Barossa Valley. It's a much brighter Syrah. You're getting a lot more raspberries in there and like a little it's a little bit more tart. So if you like that style of wine and a syrah, then definitely try it. But, yeah, you can find Chardonnay, you can find Syrah, you can find Cabernet Sauvignon. But to be honest, mostly when you go out to a restaurant, you're gonna find a lot more. It it's gonna be predominantly indigenous grapes. No. And I feel like that's the way it should be. I'm glad that they do that. Like, that's what I would want to taste. Right? Yeah. Exactly. Anything else we should know about Croatian wine? I mean, everything, but anything that you can fit in the next, like, 5 minutes on the podcast. Anything that I didn't ask you about and you were waiting for me to say, Haley, ask me this question. I think what's important to note so they have a classification system in Croatia where it's like table wine, quality wine, and then high quality wine called berkulskowino. And just because something says table wine, doesn't mean that it's not good. So the problem is is that, basically, when someone is making wine, in order to qualify for homeschool butchering this, sorry, Balkan people, it gets sent to, like, a panel of winemakers, and they have to pay really high fees, and it's a really slow turnaround time. So a lot of really big predominant winemakers don't even submit it to them, and they just call it table wine. So I always tell people, like, if you're buying your own wine at a restaurant or something, like, don't pay attention to the fact that it says high quality wine. Like, the table wine is probably, if not better than high quality wine. That's such a great thing to point out. I totally I think that's the same thing around here with, like, why you'll notice that a lot of wineries don't say organic or biodynamic on them and don't have those kinds of things. Right? The smaller wineries, especially because, like, it costs a lot of money to get that certification, and, like, you know, it's already takes a lot of money to make wine, let alone have to do that when it's like, no. You just have to know the producer and know that they make good wine, which was gonna be my kinda, like, the the last question on this. I do, you know, wanna learn you know, for folks that wanna learn more, you know, if you have any resources you'd recommend, obviously, the book A Year in the Future, we will recommend that. But and then also, like, if we see Croatian wine on a menu, if we you know, I know there is that website, the would you say it was Croatian wine? Prinsha premium wine. Yes. You can buy it there. Are there wines that like, how do we know when we're looking at, like, the list of wines? Is there any way to know which ones are worth trying and which are, like, no. That's the Barefoot of Croatia. Avoid. The problem this and this is me being very honest, and it's unfortunate. The problem is is the wines that you're going to get in the United States are not bigger wineries. People that can afford to pay the import cost, people that can actually spare wine. Oh, for example, a lot of these wines, like, for on Korcula, they sell out just selling it to people and restaurants and stuff. So I think that my philosophy on the subject is go to Croatia premium wine, for example, and try some stuff to introduce yourself to the wines of Croatia. And then you should call me and just come to Croatia. So you know what? That that tracks. I think that makes sense. You're like, here, start here, but then here's where you're gonna end because I I just know you're gonna need to do this. Because let's be honest, Haley, what's better than being on a yacht, drinking a glass of wine in the sunset? Yeah. No. I really can't think of much. I mean, sounds and somebody else has done all the planning for you. We always talk about this. Like, one of the biggest sells of the Walla Walla trip, you were like, oh, you're planning it for me? Great. I just get to come along for the ride and do all this, and it's like, that's what you'd be doing in Croatia. Because as much fun as it is to, like, plan the whole trip like you said, I mean, there were over a 1000 islands. Like, how do you know where to go? And it's like, you can help them do that, and that's what that that's what that is for. So I love that. Okay. We're coming to the end, and just have a little mini speed round. This doesn't have to be Croatia based, though I wouldn't be surprised if some of them fall under Croatia for you. But it's just a little fun to kinda like, I ask all my guests guests these questions. So we'll start with, what is your favorite wine at the moment? Oh my gosh. You know, I'm really obsessed with that wine we had at Delmas. Oh, yes. Yeah. It's hard not to be. That Syrah was just bananas. Like, it was so freaking good. Or just to be honest, just in general, Walla Walla wine. I was really blown away by the Rhone varietals. And, like I said earlier, I really like darker, luscious wines. And, I mean, from Delmas to Roti, like, there's just some beautiful things that are coming out of Walla Walla, I have to say. Yeah. Oh, that I love hearing that because I'm, like, I'm championing that region. More people need to know about Walla Walla wine, which, like, honestly, we're not a tiny little island in or island country in in Europe, and we still have a hard time getting our wines out there to people. I'm I'm saying we as if I'm part of Walla Walla. I am now. I'm saying I am. But, like, it's hard to get Walla Walla wine outside of there. I mean, look, I you know, when I'm in the United States and living in New York, and I cannot find I've been I don't think I've ever seen a wine from Walla Walla. I think we just need to, like, keep I mean, the only thing I can think of is, like, I just keep asking at the small wine shops. I just keep mentioning it. I keep highlighting it. And I'm like, if more people can keep asking for it and the same thing with Croatian wine, hopefully, we can kinda create this, you know, create the economy for these wines to be brought in and be, you know, shared across the world. I agree. Because to be honest, if you can find some outstanding wines from France and Italy and everything like that, it's because there's a demand for it. You know, there's a demand for it. You being an ambassador for, you know, all these amazing places like Walla Walla and me being an ambassador for Croatia. Hopefully, one day, we'll go into a restaurant, and it'll be like, oh my god. There's 10 Walla Walla wines, and there's 5 Croatian wines. That would be so cool. I know. It's gonna happen. We're gonna make it happen. I know. Wonder. Okay. Next question. What is your favorite wine region that you've ever visited? God, that's such a hard question. All of them? Favorite wine region. You know, I will say one of the ones, I guess, that was most surprising to me, I lived in Australia for a while, and there's this island, Waikiki, Once again, butchery names. It was I typically tend to, like, wine regions that are also near the sea, ironically. Island. And they had some amazing wines. And I think it was it was this, like, happy marriage. Like, their Syrah, their Rose Syrah is amazing. Like, just how what I had from there. I really liked that. I like the really kind of underdog Rhine regions. You know? Walla Walla, Croatia, Waikiki Island, and New Zealand. Don't get me wrong. Napa Valley is beautiful and amazing, but I don't like to pay a $100 for a taste. Yeah. No. There's I feel like there's also something special to, like, going to a region where you're like, I feel like I'm here before the crazy has happened or, like, before, like, it's like I'm on the inside scoop. I know of this before everybody else does, or or it just feels yeah. It's more welcoming. It's chiller. Like, yeah, I love Napa. I found some really great wineries there. But, yeah, it doesn't reach the top of my favorite wine regions visited because of, yeah, it's expensive, and you expect a lot too, I think. Yeah. I know. I know. You get dressed up. You put on makeup up. You're like, okay. Let's have a day. Okay. So now this one, I don't know if this is gonna be a harder or an easier question for you. How about a wine region you'd like to visit? I wanna go to the Rhone Valley. I've never been, and I'm obsessed with Rhone varietals. And it's been on my list for such a long time. It's just about getting out there. And wanna take a trip? Let's go. Absolutely. I'm going to, I'm going to France in September, and I had the same problem of, like, I needed to limit. I was I was trying to do the thing where I'm like, k. You can't go to a new place every day. You're gonna get so tired. And so I had to limit, and we're just doing Loire Valley, Burgundy, and Jura because we're only there for, like, 10 days, and we're doing a couple days in Paris. Right? Yeah. And I'm like, I'm already ready to go back again, and I haven't even gone the first time because I'm like, there's also the Rhone and there's Provence, and then there's Alsace in the north, and I wanna go there too. Yeah. It's so hard. I like hearing that from you as somebody who actually does travel a lot that, like, it's even hard for you to travel to these regions. Well, it is. It seriously is. It is really hard, and it's been on my, like I have a friend of mine that lives in France, and she's like, Jennifer, just come. And I'm like, just come in. It's like time. Right? It's like it just it can't happen that way. But we'll keep enjoying the wine from those regions, and it can make us feel a little bit like we're there. Or I can come to Walla Walla also. Yes. I like that. Okay. How about, favorite wine and food pairing? And, again, it can just be of the moment. It just have to be, like, the ultimate wine and food pairing. So one of the traditions for my birthday since I turned 21 is Prosecco and birthday cake for breakfast. Oh, that's so fun. Fancy one or anything, but I feel there's something about, like, off dry bubbles in birthday cake, which is the best thing in the world. Like that. I have a feeling you're, gonna start a tradition for quite a few people now. Yeah. For breakfast, specifically on your birthday. Okay. Alright. I love it. Okay. Last question. And I feel like you could probably take this a couple different ways. So maybe start with just in the US, and then I'm curious. This actually brings me to a question we could ask about Croatia. Best bottle of wine under $15 for somebody who kinda wants to stay under a budget, but they want, like, something reliable under $15. You know, I was thinking about this earlier, and I don't know product like, wine production has gotten so expensive, you know. And you go to a lot of these small production wineries, and there's so many costs today. And I think, personally, I've had a hard time finding a bottle of wine under 15. Can we do it under 30? I mean, you're not the first person to say that. I think it's, like, a good thing to call out too of, like, in order to get something that low cost, you're gonna have to get from a large winery or you can't support a local small producer because they can't afford to drop their prices that low. And that's the truth. When you just look at I mean, the cost of everything today is so high. I mean, I went out to get a coffee in New York City, and it was actually a tea. And they were freaking 30% hip on a to go, like, chai latte. And I was like, excuse me? Like, no. I think it's just so, I mean, yeah, you can get a chai latte for $15. So I would say one I'm kind of obsessed with is in Russian River, you have Miramar Estate, and they make an albarino there. The story of them, if you have a chance, I'll look them up. Basically, it's all female owned. The original person came from Spain, and it's a cool story. I'm not gonna get into the whole story because that could be a whole different podcast. Basically, her family was, wine producers in Spain. She wanted to have her own winery. Her dad wouldn't let her, so she was like, I'm gonna move to California and make my own wine. Hell, yeah. And it was really cool. And now her daughter is kind of running it, and they make an albano, and I think it's, like, maybe, like, $28 on their website. It's amazing. And definitely just, like, order a bottle for yourself just to have. I would say that for the United States. Europe is different. You can find amazing bottles of wine for, like, €10. Right. Well, that was gonna be my question. So just to kinda finish this all off and we'll tie it back to Croatia, like, what would be like, do you have, like, a go to bottle when in Croatia? Do you, like, do you visit the local wine shop for that? Do you just go to the grocery store kind of and what does, like, the budget look like when you're you're shopping for wine in Croatia? Yeah. I mean, like I said, you can find an amazing bottle of wine for€10. I have a couple of them that I wanna call out because I'm obsessed with all of them, and they're just amazing humans. So I would say for Possep, which is the white wine that grows on Korcula. I really love there's a new wine producer called Tasovac, and they had that story where they were making wine for themselves as a family, and then we're doing such a good job that they transitioned to making it to sell. And that is you know, you can get that under $15. There is a wine region in Dalmatia called Vargo Vod. One second. I'm so bad at pronouncing all this. I'm so sorry. I'll have you write a couple of them down. We'll make sure to put them in the show notes so people know what to look for because we won't know how to say it or spell it either. There's a really small family producer called crystal, Modris Modris, Crystal Modris, and family winery, and they make a grape called Terna. And it's a red grape also grown predominantly in Bosnia. It's fabulous. They're fantastic. And Pooretta Winery in Korchalla Island for Portia too. And all of these wines and that's the thing is all of these wines are amazing wines. And you're not spending, like, in the United States, $60 for a bottle or something like that. Right? You just gotta spend to get there. And then and then once you're there, you're you're good. Right? Alright. Well, one more time before we go, tell us about your the food and wine tour, the dates, the the details, all of that, and I'll make sure to put a link in the show notes so people can go check it out. Yeah. So it's August 24th to 31st. We go from Dubrovnik to Split, and we island hop. You can jump right off the boat into the sea. It's really amazing. It's 18 cabins, 36 people mats, and, I'm more than halfway sold out. So if you want to come, definitely, you know, book ASAP. And, I have a special promotion for you guys, and Hailey's gonna promote it when I tell you a little bit more now. But special promotion for all you guys listening. Basically, if you are a fan of delicious food and even if you don't like seafood, it's all customized. It's a customized food and wine cruise, island hopping, visit family owned farms, bespoke small production wineries, and tanning on the Adriatic Sea on a yacht. I mean, what gets better? Sounds amazing. I know. 2025, you're coming. Yes. I love it. Perfect. Okay. How can how should people, get that special promotion, or how should they reach out so that they can take advantage of it? Honestly, they can just send us an email. Go to our website, you know, anchor Croatia dotcom. Our our Instagram is the anchor Croatia. And, just tell them that you listened to the wonderful Haley on her podcast, and I will make sure that you get that special promotion and a complimentary bottle of wine. So Oh. Yeah. Wonderful. Starting off starting off strong. You just end up in Croatia and you get a bottle of wine. Exactly. Sounds lovely. Okay, Jen. I'm so excited for all the things to come and and everything. I'm so glad we got to connect. Thank God for Instagram for helping us find each other. Isn't that wild? I know. It's such a great conversation and can't wait to see what else you end up doing and what you teach me about Croatian wine. I'm excited. Well, it was so good to see you, Hailey, and thank you for everything. Yes. Thanks. Cheers.