435 Podcast: Southern Utah
Explore the heartbeat of Southern Utah with the 435 Podcast, your go-to source for all things local in Washington County. Stay ahead of the curve with our in-depth coverage, expert analysis, and captivating interviews. Whether you're a resident or visitor, our podcast is your key to unlocking the latest happenings and trends in St. George and the surrounding areas. Tune in now to stay informed and connected with our thriving community!
435 Podcast: Southern Utah
Balancing Progress and Preservation in Southern Utah
Ever wondered how global events reshape local governance? Join us as we engage with Shawn Guzman, the Director of Governmental Affairs for St. George, who brings his wealth of experience as the former city attorney to our conversation. Shawn offers a revealing glimpse into the intricate world of city governance in Southern Utah, highlighting the transformative impact of events like 9/11 and COVID-19 on cities heavily reliant on tourism, such as St. George. With tourism as a key economic driver, the city's future hinges on strategic collaboration with neighboring cities to manage challenges in housing, water, and more.
Navigate the complexities of urban development and governance as we discuss St. George's evolution into one of Utah's most sophisticated cities, complete with a regional airport and significant municipal responsibilities. We uncover the delicate balance between maintaining local autonomy and the growing influence of state legislation, with an eye on the legislative agenda leading up to 2025. Our discussion also explores how St. George revitalizes older neighborhoods and fosters community identity amidst rising housing costs, ensuring vibrant communities that attract young families and stabilize local schools.
Explore the pressing issues of water conservation and legislative priorities that are critical for Southern Utah's sustainability. Learn about the innovative solutions being implemented, from water reuse systems to strategic land use decisions balancing economic, educational, and environmental interests. We delve into the controversies of road development and infrastructure funding, highlighting the potential political challenges and community impacts. This episode promises to illuminate the complex dynamics of local governance, offering insights on sustainable development and community engagement in a rapidly changing environment.
Guest: Shawn Guzman
Role: Director of Governmental Affairs
Link to Washington County Diabetic Youth Association:
https://www.wcdya.com/
-Donations are always accepted to help sent a T1D youth to summer camp. Donations can be sent via Venmo '@wcdya'
or visit webpage: https://www.wcdya.com/copy-of-why-how to scan QR code.
#435podcast #southernutah #stgeorgeutah #stgeorge #politics
[00:00:00] Intro.
[00:04:39] The Complex Dynamics of City Governance.
[00:09:53] City Governance and Urban Development Dynamics.
[00:18:23] Housing Crisis and Local Government Dynamics.
[00:30:11] Water Conservation and Legislative Priorities.
[00:42:15] Land Use Trade-Offs and Transportation Connectivity.
[00:51:18] City Road Development Controversy.
[00:57:04] Local Government Revenue and Infrastructure Challenges.
We are on an arc down here. Oh nice, I like that. And if we don't all row in the same direction, if our oars, if we're not working with Santa Clara City, which we work well with and Ivan City and. Washington City. I mean, if we're not all rowing in the same direction, we're just going to go in circles. We need to work together. Down here. It's kind of forced us to work together, and so I enjoy it so much more than having to deal with the Wasatch Front issues.
Speaker 2:From the Blue Form Media Studios. This is the 435 Podcast the pulse of Southern Utah.
Speaker 2:Hey everybody, I'm Robert McFarland with the 435 Podcast. Today's guest is Sean Guzman. He's the Director of Governmental Affairs for the City of St George. He was the city attorney for St George for 18 years. We talk about the dynamics of the complexity of what's going on in Southern Utah. As the director of governmental affairs, he's talking to everybody the federal delegation, the state delegation, the different cities within Southern Utah so he comes at it from a unique perspective.
Speaker 2:We talk a lot about topics. We've talked about a bunch on this show. So one of the things is we want to keep the conversation going about important topics such as Zone 6, housing, water, things like that. So we hope you enjoy this episode. It is election day, so we hope you better get out there and vote. If you haven't already done it. Make sure you drop off your ballots before the end of the day to make sure that they're being counted. It's going to be a wild one. We hope the week ahead is calm and everybody keeps their head together. But enjoy this episode, guys. Get you away from the federal stuff, talk about local stuff and make sure you jump in the comments.
Speaker 2:And also, last thing November is Diabetes Awareness Month and the Washington County Diabetic Youth Association is raising money this month for the youth of southern Utah that have type 1 diabetes. As you might know, my son, robert Jr, has type 1 diabetes. He was diagnosed when he was four years old and the Washington County Diabetic Youth Association has been a great organization for him to be a part of. We're raising money to send kids to camp and to really help them understand and help the community understand diabetes and how it affects all of us. So this will be the last time you see me with my beard. I'm going to shave it off for November to raise awareness for diabetes. Make sure you jump in the link in the comments to check that out. If you want to donate to the Diabetic Youth Association in Washington County, the link will be there. In Washington County, the link will be there. We hope you get out there and definitely be part of the community.
Speaker 2:Guys, thanks for listening to the episode. We'll see you out there. I wanted to have you on. I wanted to have somebody from the city as a day-to-day manager, kind of the ins and outs, and obviously John isn't as interested in doing conversations, interview type conversations, um. So having you on, not not necessarily as a substitute for that. But I think you have kind of a interesting perspective as far as city politics goes and and the management of the day to day. Cause you were you were a city attorney, a city attorney for St George for a little while right, I was for about 18 years.
Speaker 1:Oh, way more than a little. While 18 years I've been in, I've been with the city for 20, almost 21 years, oh dang.
Speaker 2:So you've seen St George go through all kinds of different changes Huge, huge change, yeah. So how would you gauge what's happening today If we were to say, like I hate this, but we did this for 9-11, where it was like the world changed after 9-11 and then the world changed again after COVID? When you look at those two windows of time, are they comparable as to, like, the shifts in government management? You know when cities go through, you know big shifts in whether it's the economy or cultural shifts within the, within the neighborhood. Would you say that today's more or less, uh, affected by world events than than it has been in the past?
Speaker 1:oh, that's a that's a good question. If you're talking about world events, I think that, uh, I think it's just different. When you're a small community, a community that doesn't have a lot of a lot of variety, and in employment, for example, when you're more dependent on tourism, then things are different. When you're a smaller city, trying to handle all the complexities of a city like St George, then it's different than when you're a larger city, but the challenges are different, but they're still challenges. Let me just give you an example. Most people don't know this. Most cities in Utah, if you go up north um, let's, let's take a layton, for example. We used to be. They used to compare us to layton a lot, although layton was always bigger than us. We far surpassed them now. But uh, layton belong, layton is in within uta's district, right? So they don't provide any bus service. Okay, uh, layton doesn't have an electrical service. You know they have rocky mountain, whatever their current name is yeah yeah, rock mountain power but yeah, yeah, pacific core.
Speaker 2:I think pacific core right and so they, they provide the power.
Speaker 1:Uh, they don't have an airport, and so those are just some of the things that are that are unique. They don't. They have a small dispatch center but not a large one like ours where we do the 911 dispatch for the entire county. Yeah, so, uh, so, they don't. Their city isn't as complex, right, yeah, here, even when we were a small city, when I got here 21 years ago, we still ran the dispatch for the entire county. We ran the bus service. Uh, we ran. We had the an airport. That was, has always been, the second busiest airport. We have the largest regional airline in the world not the country, but the world headquartered here in saint george.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sky west sky west, yeah, and and we could talk about that later and some of the fun things we're doing at the airport but uh, we have our own power. We're the largest municipal power company in the state of Utah.
Speaker 2:Wow. So when you Largest in terms of Of customers, yeah, customer base okay, yeah, customer base and our energy usage.
Speaker 1:So you look at what the city has to do. That was our size 17 years ago and now it's still far more complex in the average city in utah. Yeah, and that's on top of all of the recreational events we do, all of the you know, the marathons and the iron mans, and and, and having five million visitors to zion. Yeah, come through here. So it's, it's. It's not your typical city.
Speaker 2:So so, thinking about the, the different phases over that last 20 years, you know, is it? I guess it it has to just get more complex, it has to get more difficult to be able to manage. You know that kind of uh, uh, even though the population I think we're the fourth or fifth largest city in the in the state as far- as population size, or six, depending on who you whose statistics you look at yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, and remember back then uh, when I got here, I think we were the 17th largest city.
Speaker 2:Wow so, yeah, big changes we've. We've grown a lot over those last two decades and so now, as as we've, we've grown population size, but those, those services that you mentioned I think that's an interesting point that people tend to forget is, as much as we feel like a small town, we're, we're on the governmental, governmental like management of it. We're not a small town.
Speaker 1:We're, we're, we're quite large we and we've been complex. And one thing you know, one thing people don't like to talk about but we do, is we are the regional sewage treatment for santa clara, ivans and washington city and they've all grown. Most cities, like a layton, belong to a district. Yeah, that handles that. So so we handle all of these things that other cities in utah don't do, so that. So, even as a small city, it was complex, and as a large city, it's it's. It's it's complex, it's just the challenges are different. Keeping up with the growth, for example, is is a big challenge.
Speaker 2:And so when you, when you think about the year to come, 2025, the legislative agenda there's a lot of things that are kind of impacting Southern Utah specifically on that agenda, what do you think is the most impactful? What do you what's like the biggest? It seems to me the biggest buzz topic of conversation has been housing, but what are some of the other you know legislative agenda items that are going to impact? You know our complicated, you know city dynamic.
Speaker 1:Well, I think the biggest challenge we have every session is protecting cities' rights to make decisions at the local level. And it's interesting because we have a republican legislature super majority right and you would think that they would be all about local control and and not lean towards, maybe, a system like oregon where they do all the zoning at regional and state levels for cities, or California, where they're continually chipping away at the ability of locals to make decisions at the local level. But we find that the opposite is true. In Utah. We then that they every every session, it feels like there's another bill that's going to take away cities autonomy to make decisions. And, um, do you think?
Speaker 2:that cities, that cities saying we don't want to manage it, like like the layton, where they don't have to manage all of these other regional things, and they're they're wanting to, you know, set aside some of those decisions to say, well, it's not up, not up to us, let's have somebody else do it. Do you think it's them pushing off that responsibility?
Speaker 1:No, Cities want to retain the ability. You think so, oh, absolutely. When you see a zoning decision in Santa Clara a little Santa Clara here that people are concerned about, they turn out in mass to their city council meeting, which is the way it should be. Can you imagine if those decisions were made at a regional level or even at a state level? When people are concerned about traffic, it seems traffic and zoning are the big issues for people. They want to be able to talk to their local, they want to be able to call the mayor and in a community like Santa Clara, believe me, a lot of people have Mayor Rosenberg's number right and they want to be able to call the mayor. They want to be able to call Council Member Hinton and say I have a concern on the speed on my street. Can you view if people are driving too fast? Or I have concern about this development that's going to go in next door. And they want to be heard.
Speaker 1:And the higher up you go in government, the less people feel like they're heard. I think people are concerned about whether their voice is heard at the legislative level, although I think we do a better job in Utah than in other states Most people in Utah at least have their local legislator's number and feel like they could call Representative Walter, for example, or Representative Brooks and say, hey, I've got a problem, will you listen to me? And they're willing to listen. We don't want to lose that. But I think that's our biggest concern is just being able to retain the ability for cities to zone, for Santa Clara to feel like Santa Clara. No, santa Clara doesn't want to be St George, they don't want to be Ivans, they want to be this community that people move in and love, and they want to retain that, that look and feel.
Speaker 2:But do you think, do you think that that sometimes they they make decisions because they're trying to protect this specific way of life that they have, that they that keeps them from having the ability to forecast down just even one more generation? Because I was. I was actually just having this conversation with my neighbor I live in Ivins and Santa Clara was like the place to go for Halloween. That was like the place to go trick-or-treating, right, and these days a lot of the doors and a lot of the houses are dark right, there's a lot of older people in the community. There's far less youth and young families moving into that community because the inability, you know, housing costs have gotten out of control, the development hasn't necessarily kept up with allowing, you know, first time home buyers to move in and keep that community vibrant and turning over within itself. Do you think that local, individual city doesn't necessarily have the ability to kind of forecast out long term growth and what's healthy for the city and what's not? Do you think that that tends to, you know, be to their detriment?
Speaker 1:No, I don't know that it's a lack of forecasting, I mean that's. You talked a little bit about the differences between being a small St George and a large St George. Well, I think one of the challenges we're going to have and we're seeing in St George is how do you keep your older areas vibrant? It's easy for a city that's growing fast to look good, to look dynamic, but it's those cities that are getting a little older and haven't started that gentrification process where the younger families are now moving in to replace those older people. And be careful who you call older people, because I think I'm starting to fit in that category.
Speaker 1:It's a touchy subject Because all my kids are out of the house now, so we might be dark on Halloween, but that's a challenge and I think if you look at St George, our downtown now, which used to be looking like it was headed in that direction, is now vibrant. We've got young people that are scouring our downtown neighborhood to find a lot to build on or find a house to renovate, to go back there again, and that was with foresight. We negotiated with the school district, sold our beloved Elksfield to them for a great price so that they would build a brand new school downtown that people would want to send their kids to. You know we've improved the things that aren't fun. You know it's like an old house. People want to do the paint and the exterior, but it's the foundation and the plumbing you got to work on. Well, we've been working on our foundation and plumbing in downtown for four years now and redoing. We used to flood quite a bit. Homes would get flooded. We've worked on our drainage systems.
Speaker 2:There's still wood pipes. Red Mesa Fellowship it's a St George community church, it's right across from Dixie Tech and we had some issues with the plumbing and they did a uh sewer scope and we still have like wood pipes because, like back in the 70s, I guess, there was like a like an iron shortage or something like that and so they were putting, uh, it's like wood with like a composite material around it and that was like the piping and it's starting to collapse and right, you know, there's some old, there's still some old parts of town.
Speaker 1:Orangeburg pipe. That's ceramic, I think it's ceramic. That's also has some problems but we've been our, our water department has been very aggressively going through and and changing those out, rebuilding the systems so that we can have that, the growth downtown, the infill of those large old lots that are very deep and narrow a little bit narrow and long.
Speaker 1:And we've come up with some unique zoning to try to encourage that. So if you go downtown now, it's a vibrant area and stabilize the school. We had the principal come in years ago and she pleaded with us for help because her turnover in her class was such that her kids that were full-time residents downtown were not keeping up because every time new students would come in she would have to backtrack and educate them on how the how the subject matter is being taught, what was their expectation on homework, Get them up to speed to where they were in math and science and history, and all of that.
Speaker 2:Is it because it was mainly like renters? Is that the main issue?
Speaker 1:And a kind of a transient population, and that's the way it was headed and our former leaders decided that that wasn't the way they wanted it to go. And you see that we've had some apartments go up. They're very popular. Those new apartments that have been built downtown fill up right away, which has added to the vibrancy of the downtown community, because you see more people on the sidewalks now and going to different places there restaurants, et cetera. So there is a challenge that I agree with you you want to retain that. Santa Clara feel you don't want to have the Swiss days and all of that. And it's true, your community is getting older, but you will see what's happened in our downtown is that as the people die off, I don't know a better way to put that or downsize Just downsize and move out and that younger families those will be the homes they can afford, hopefully, hopefully move into and to regenerate the vibrancy of those neighborhoods.
Speaker 1:It's the cycle you see all around the country.
Speaker 2:And that's that's one of the thoughts that I had. Are you know, are we being too reactive with this increased push on density? Is, is it this idea that we, you know supply is the main driver of, of trying to keep housing affordability? You know, in in a zone where you know it doesn't, um, as long as supply stays at a higher level, demand is going to ebb and flow, but it's going to slow the pace of the appreciated value of the home.
Speaker 2:And part of me thinks that this is just a small window of time where we're going through this pressure of affordability. Right, because wages are on the rise, especially all over washington county. We're getting higher wage jobs come in here, but we're getting a lot of people that are moving here that work, you know, remotely, and so they're and their wages are significantly higher than what they could get, they could get, if they just lived here locally. Do you think it's just, do we have to have a little bit more patience in letting these cycles kind of come through? Do you think that's maybe one of the tales of maybe we're not too reactive, we could probably be a little bit more patient with letting the system kind of work through the ups and downs of the economy and housing ultimately will settle in and not continue to appreciate at such a rapid rate. Do you think that's maybe something that you know? The state or the local representatives maybe not making a reactive move on pushing super high density? Do you think that's one of the perspectives that people are taking?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, that's a. It's a very complex question. I should have been taking notes because I've been thinking of several things as you're, as you're speaking. First of all, the last time, I remember the last big push statewide where we've got to do something about housing. Statewide there's this is a nationwide problem. Well, what happened 2008,? Right, the crash came and the correction. Then, all of a sudden, we had half built subdivisions, even here in St George area that were there for years, right?
Speaker 2:Hundreds and hundreds of homes that were just vacant, half built. Yeah, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So. So if we look back over history, there's always a cycle, and I'm afraid we're in one of those cycles. Here's one thing when you talk about how national politics affects us locally interest rates and the economy, inflation I mean, there are people literally here that were ready to buy a home and then the interest rates go up and they are priced out of the home just because of the interest rates?
Speaker 2:Yeah, just instantly, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I know of people that were actually building their homes but they had their construction loan but not their final financing, thinking things were fine, and then interest rates went up and their monthly payment went up $1,000.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that prices them out of the market and they have a lot of times they had non-refundable, you know, money down on this build. And now come to the end of the. You know the final construction's been completed and they can't, they can't afford it.
Speaker 1:They can't afford it anymore. Yeah, and that is. That's a crisis. Yeah, so when you say, is the, is it? I would say, if you're trying to buy a home and you're a young family, I think there's an urgency there, right? Yeah, there is. And they're saying why I'll take a. I'll take a smaller lot. Yeah, I don't need a 10,000 square foot lot. Yeah, I mean, I, when I moved here 21 years ago, I paid $46,000 about for a lot in Springville, utah. That was a third of an acre big corner lot and that's what I built on. I came here six years later and paid almost $80,000 for a lot that was less than quarter of an acre. And I remember telling my wife I'm not paying that much money for this postage stamp sized lot. And now they're 200 grand, right.
Speaker 1:And so for me moving down here lot and now they're 200 grand Right, and so for me moving down here, I thought the lots were smaller and yet I adjusted and I'm actually totally fine with the lot that I live on now.
Speaker 2:Like I didn't want to mow all that grass anyway.
Speaker 1:That's exactly right. And now, especially at my age, I don't want to mow all that grass and so I'm okay with the smaller lots. What we're finding is that actually the younger generation I would put you in this category, so I'm interested in what you think but we're finding that a lot of the younger generation are fine with a smaller lot. They like those communities where they have a smaller lot. They still have a house big enough for their families, maybe minimum three bedrooms, two baths or two and a half baths, and having that community pool and park or whatever down the way where their kids can go play, having a backyard, a small backyard that their kids can play into, where they could watch them.
Speaker 2:But does it take too much maintenance? Because I don't want to spend my weekends just maintaining the house and doing yard work and things like that, but I want to go get on the trails and and go explore. You know right, go do things in our community because we have a ton of stuff to do and they want a house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly this is the way they get a house yeah so I think, just as I adjusted to a smaller lot when I moved down here from what I was used to up in utah county, I think that all over the country we're finding that the younger generation, they have fewer kids than I had five.
Speaker 2:So do you think that there's some pushback from the? Because right now you're the governmental affairs director for.
Speaker 1:St George City right.
Speaker 2:So that's, you know, you're trying to collaborate all these different governmental organizations right From the county to the other cities, to the state, so you're kind of a liaison. Is that the best way to kind?
Speaker 2:of describe Our federal delegation to the federal delegation as well. So so, thinking about that pressure from the state, from the federal government, to say, hey, we need to solve this housing crisis, this housing issue, do you think? Do you think that there is, you know, some, you know, we're holding the line saying, hey, we don't want to see a whole lot of change, we don't want to be super reactive. What's the, what's the pulse from the local representation? Do they do they want, you know, is, is this zoning piece generally accepted by those, those political entities making these decisions, uh, at the local level, to allow for higher density, or do you think there's some pushback there of not wanting to do that?
Speaker 1:I think that the local officials by and large are on board with this. If you go to Washington City, they have some unique projects going on with ENTS homes. I believe it is with smaller lots, but they look unique. I think the homes look unique and I think even in Santa Clara you have elected officials that can see the vision of having those higher density.
Speaker 1:But what the local officials don't want is they don't want someone telling them what those have to look like.
Speaker 1:And increasingly, at the legislative level, they've been chipping away at our ability for design standards. Now I think there could be some unreasonable design standards that cities may do, but I think by and large throughout the state, the cities understand that they want something that looks unique, but they don't want to raise the cost of the home too much. So if a city says we want to see if you're going to build this kind of density, we want to see six or seven different elevations so that people living there don't feel like they're just in a living, in a box of cookie cutter homes or something of that nature, we want those communities to feel like they've got a unique community as well. I also think there's a push by cities to say why can't we intersperse these smaller lots into what you would call quote unquote a normal subdivision? So if you have a subdivision that has 10,000 square foot lots, why can't you have also 5,000 square foot or 6,000 square foot lots intermingled? Why?
Speaker 2:is it that we have to all be? It's like all or nothing, right it's?
Speaker 1:the old Euclidean zoning, where you you have just this zone where there are 5,000 square foot lots, and so you kind of ghettoize those neighborhoods, you kind of make those children feel like they're living in, and then the developers on the other side is they're they're incentivized to cookie cutter, that because these are the size lots that we could put, then basically all the homes are just going to be identical. But they don't have to be, they don't have to be.
Speaker 2:But if you had some lots that were ranging in size, it would almost kind of force the developers to say, okay, well, this design would fit better on this lot and this design would fit better on this lot.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Allowing that kind of mix mix that together and even in Santa Clara, over here, off, uh, off, pioneer uh, I think it's pioneer Parkway uh, patricia drive, oh yeah, sure, yeah, um, you know that development. I went to the city council meetings and it really boiled down to how many units per acre and when you, when you flushed out the units per acre, it was like a six, 6.4 units per acre or something like that, which when you expand out for the whole development cause it's like 19 acres, it sounded like a really a ton of lots. But they made the developers come back to the table Cause they said that the density per acre was too high and they adjusted it by like 15 homes, like the difference between, you know, in that 19 acres from approval and not approval was like 15 houses. And I just couldn't help but think how ridiculous that we got down to where it was. Just this units per acre was so important to us that they even had some of the mix.
Speaker 2:They had some, some smaller lots in the, in the one corner, and then, you know, along the streets they had larger lots to kind of feel like there's a transition into it, which I really think that the developer went above and beyond, but the the city officials, you know, denied it and made them come back to the drawing table.
Speaker 2:You know, it's a month later, you know a couple thousand dollars more of redesign work through the architect and all the engineering, for only 15 different homes, and I just couldn't help but think how ridiculous that was, you know. But it's, that's part of this complexity, that's part of this dynamic is allowing the cities to kind of make these decisions. But I really was impressed with what they're doing in that subdivision because it is a whole range of housing types and styles. So I I definitely think there's a lot of cities that are, you know, getting more creative with, with how we develop, not just having, you know, quarter acre lots. I mean Washington city in the fields and even St George on the on the little Valley in Washington fields area. We've kind of done that.
Speaker 1:Still, we just made these you know cookie cutter type lot sizes and then we have just a bunch of big, massive homes now and when you say we remember in Utah we could and I had this, this, this, this talk with governor uh, governor cox, I said we, we could go through st george and zone the entire city 6 000 square foot lots, we'll still. We'll get developers out in little valley that'll come in with a plat with 12 000 square foot lots and they have the ability to do that. And so, because we're setting the minimum, the minimum, yeah, right, so we, we don't have control, you know, it's still, yeah, it's still up to the landowner and, yes, the landowner, the developer, and that's why we've been working with suba and I don't want to. You know, I don't know the particulars of the situation you explained here in santa clara, and I certainly, um, I know there's always two sides to every story, but sometimes, when you hear a story like that, you're thinking there's 15 homes that families could have purchased, right?
Speaker 2:there, that's what I was thinking. Yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking and and I have, uh, five children.
Speaker 1:Uh, all of them are living here right now. Four of them are married. Only one of them has been able to buy a house and, by the way, the house they bought is over in long valley in was. Oh, yeah, yeah, dr Horton, if you've been out there, and they have all ranges. It's like our, our desert desert color. You know all ranges of homes, all sizes of homes, some multifamily units, you know condos versus and some freestanding units, and they're all those are going to go to the same school. They all share the same parks. That's the kind of community that people I think can live in, where you can get that kind of density, rather than the old traditional. Let's stick all of the 5,000 square foot lots over here and let's have all the 12,000 square foot lots over here. We'll have this high school that people will think is the rich high school and you know, let's get away from that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I, I'm agree. I'm in agreeance with you on that too, and I think we've done a really good job in the County to continue to press, press that direction. I guess I have these bipolar moments where I'm like we need more housing, we need more density, and at the same time I live out in Ivins and I love that, there's not a ton of housing and there's not a ton of traffic to go to the grocery store and all those things. And with more density comes traffic and all those other things. So it's it's a tough, it's a tough balance to to kind of weigh between the two and think of the cost.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the cost. And a lot of people don't think about that. But think of the cost per mile of keeping up a roadway where you only have five homes on there, versus a roadway that might have 30 homes on it. You know, with the, with the um, the taxes that are generated, that there's a higher cost of maintaining those systems to the community.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a house, when it comes to the city budget right, a house is actually a cost to the city government we do not make money.
Speaker 2:There's no money being generated. There's not enough property taxes, there's not enough income coming in from that single house that allows us to maintain roads and schools and fire and police and all those things. It's a cost, and so that's where the commercial side comes into play, which is another topic of conversation. So if we step away from housing, looking at the legislative session, what negotiations and things are going to come up in the next coming year? What are some of the other big topics that I think you've seen that are definitely gonna be on the top of mind of the decision makers in the county?
Speaker 1:Well, water is always an issue for us and we're hoping to continue to receive funding. The legislature is focused on the Great Salt Lake and saving the Great Salt Lake, which is a worthy cause, and we've made the commitment here in Southern Utah that we will not divert a single drop of water from the Great Salt Lake. I'm glad. I'm glad, but obviously water is an issue for us and we're trying to build a reuse system throughout the county, working with the Water Conservancy District. St George City has had a reuse system in place for many years. In fact, those new soccer fields you see out on the Chivwitz Reservation, those actually are using reuse water from our sewage treatment plant.
Speaker 1:We have a line that goes all the way up there. But in any case, we want to expand that system for outdoor watering use. About 60% of our water use is outdoors, Even though, I will say this, even though you hear these numbers that are incorrect bandied about about us using more water than Per capita or something like that, yeah.
Speaker 1:I say you take a drone and fly over the new parts of Santa Clara, fly over the Washington Fields and Little Valley and then go up to Salt Lake and fly over Harriman and South Jordan and all of those areas and then look at the acres of lawn they have. Compared to what we've done down here and I think, without doing any punitive measures, we've naturally have conserved water. So if you talk to our water services director he'll show you the graphs and I don't have the numbers here. But our growth is like this, but our culinary water usage is more like this, because we've been naturally saving water without having to put the punitive rates in or anything. But water is always a big issue. We need help building out that reuse system and we have a couple of reservoirs. We'd like to get going One right here in Santa Clara. Yeah, the Graveyard Wash, the Graveyard Wash which, by the way, there are some people that say we need to change that name. I said that the other day.
Speaker 2:That's so funny.
Speaker 1:Wait that you want to change the name?
Speaker 2:I was like it just seems so morbid, it seems interesting for a reuse system.
Speaker 1:I was like it's going to potentially smell like a graveyard.
Speaker 2:Can you imagine the fun we could have every Halloween out there? That's pretty good.
Speaker 1:Come on, be creative. That is good. That's where it is. Why do they call it? You'll see the Santa Clara cemeteries right above it.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, okay, yeah, that's right, that's right, okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:No no, no, no, no. We need to. We need to talk offline about this.
Speaker 2:Okay, we need to become an advocate.
Speaker 1:Advocate for the Great Grand Bosh, yeah come on, we don't want something just ordinary yeah.
Speaker 2:That that is unique, the the reservoir they're trying to put up in Kayenta. I know there's some pressure from the residents there of of you know how, how full the water can be and and how you know if the level drops too low the wind can blow and make people sick. There's always, there's always like this running pressure, no matter how, how good you know. It seems to me like a reservoir conserving water, keeping every drop that we can get, because when we get water we get it in a big, massive dump and our dirt doesn't soak it in, it just runs right off the top and goes down the river. And so, you know, conserving every single drop that falls in the county is the most important thing for us. But we still get pressure from local residents on, you know, trying to stop things like this, these types of reservoirs. Do you see outside of that Ivan's reservoir? Do you see a lot of pressure from other communities? You know environmental groups, you know, trying to keep us from building reservoirs. Is that? Is there some pressure there? You know I.
Speaker 1:I really don't. I think our biggest hurdle sometimes is dealing with the federal government and and trying to get the land that we need. Warner Valley is very close to being, from what I understand, for the Conservancy District and working with the BLM, getting that all buttoned up so that we can start construction on that.
Speaker 2:Because that one's supposed to be like twice the size of Sand Hollow right.
Speaker 1:It'll be. Yeah, it'll be a huge reservoir and remember the idea of these. The graveyard wash is we're going to store reuse water and I know that people kind of cringe when they hear that, but most people don't realize that when they're in Las Vegas and they're drinking the water there, that's reuse water.
Speaker 1:They actually take their reuse water and pump it out to Lake Mead and then suck it back in and treat it and that's what they're using, and so people don't realize they're already. They've been in Vegas, they were already drinking. I don't know if I drink the tap water in Vegas, so from what I.
Speaker 2:I actually have a client right now. He's moving here from Fargo, north Dakota and he's part of a water treatment, a big national water treatment government institution that he's actually working on the Deer Valley Reservoir and government institution that, uh, he's actually working on the deer Valley reservoir and they're uh, I guess they're putting scuba divers, they're going to do the entire like system underwater. But they were going to have to drain the reservoir and they were afraid that the reservoir wouldn't get filled back up or how long it would take to fill the reservoir back up. So they're literally doing all of the uh water treatment stuff, um, via scuba divers, and they're doing all under underwater, which is so fascinating to me. And he said there's some amazing things that we can do with water treatment. That you know this isn't 20 years ago. You know the technology has come a long way with being able to treat water.
Speaker 1:I mean anyone who lives along the Mississippi if they're not thinking, because they take their water out to drink it, but guess where they're dumping their water into too, after they treat it? Yeah, that's true, and then people downstream, but that's not what we're talking about here.
Speaker 2:So I want to make this clear on this podcast.
Speaker 1:I don't want is that we're not saying that's what we're going to do here. We want to store that water so we can use it outdoors. Yeah, on outdoor water and it's not it potable water but they're going to be able to store it so that when we have the outdoor demand in the summertime but we're not getting the water in, that, we have that water already that we can use outdoors to to water those, the plants and keep our trees.
Speaker 2:So so that that is mainly is there a funding issue with that on the agenda this this year Is there? Is there some funding issues there, or is it mainly just working through these different organizations to be able to get the approvals to have these reservoirs built up?
Speaker 1:With the legislative session specifically, it's just making sure that we get the funding that we need, that they remember that we are the fifth largest city in the state.
Speaker 2:A lot of our legislators are surprised to hear that they still think of St George as being small when I tell them we're bigger than Ogden and we'll be bigger than provo and oram individually in a lot of, in a lot of ways we kind of already are, because they have the they have the benefit of, of being able to have other towns kind of support them, whether it's through commercial or all these other things. We're on an island out here.
Speaker 2:We have to do, we have to manage everything ourselves that's right, I don't get the support of a Metro to bring in jobs or anything like that, which is kind of a good thing. It is a good thing. I like it that way. It makes it challenging.
Speaker 1:But I tell them, up there is, we are on an arc. Yeah, down here, nice.
Speaker 2:I like that.
Speaker 1:And if we don't all row in the same direction, if our o mean, if we're not all rowing in the same direction, we're just going to go in circles. We need to work together. Down here, it's kind of forced us to work together, and so I enjoy it so much more than having to deal with the Wasatch Front issues.
Speaker 2:So I guess maybe from your perspective, as that you're kind of that liaison to all those different organizations, has it been more difficult to get everybody on the same page Down here yeah, down here over the years, because that Dixie spirit, this idea that we have to collectively do everything together, I remember you know I've said this a bunch of times, so if you've heard this before I apologize, but I think of the Santa Clara was dammed like 10 times from like 1890 to like 1910, the dams just kept failing because we'd have these big monsoon rains come through and they just wash out the dam and it would take legitimately every, you know, capable adult to go out and fix those things, because without holding the water, without keeping that water, we weren't going to be able to survive through that next summer.
Speaker 2:And so that collective spirit of getting the entire county all on the same page, it kind of runs deep within the community as a culture. Do you feel like it's gotten a little bit more difficult, as we've seen this population I'm not from California, but I moved here from California, I lived there for 10 years, you know, from an outsider coming in and looking at collective spirit Do you think that there's been some change in, some difficulty in in getting everybody rowing the same direction over the last 10 years. You know.
Speaker 1:I would say over the last 10 years it's actually gotten better. Oh okay, interesting, yeah, I do. When I came down here, there there were, you know, there there was the, the old timers. They'd have the Dogtown versus St George versus. You know, it's interesting and it's not something that's just unique from down here. When I moved to Springville, I remember when I was on the planning commission there and I mentioned doing something with Spanish Fork and I heard a huge howl like we don't do that, you know, and to me it was like they're on the other side of the tracks.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I was like they on the other side of the tracks, yes, you know, and I was like they look just like us. Yeah, but you know, I didn't see that I was. I worked at a firm. A law firm in northern utah county represented five cities and I'm telling you I had to remember which city I was in that day because it was like no, we're not going to work with them, we can't work with. And it was to me it was a unique thing. I came down here and I found that, by and large people, it was more like a family. So you might have the inter-family squabble, but if anybody from the outside tried to pick on any one of us, everybody had, you know, they had their swords drawn and they're ready to do battle.
Speaker 1:And so it was a unique and fun atmosphere.
Speaker 1:I, you know, if anything I think, as we're, as I've seen the turnover from the old guard to people that have moved in from other communities up north or from other states I see more territorialism with those new hires that you kind of feel like you have to sit down with them and say, look, robert, let me explain. I know you came from the Wasatch front and that's how it was down there up there. But down here we work together because we're working for the same taxpayers. So you know what? Leave your tracks open so that the people can use them, and we will do this for you. That's how it was when I got down here. School district would come to talk to the city manager, gary Espin at the time, and say, hey, we need help with lights, and he'd say, okay, I'll do. Well, the city will help you with the lights if you will agree to keep the track open so that the neighbors can use that part, or we can use your ball fields for our little league, or whatever it may be.
Speaker 2:We're going to make a deal, let's make a deal and let's all work together.
Speaker 1:It's a win-win, win right? Because because we're working for the same taxpayers and I, and what I fear is that we, we will lose some of that, because I've noticed, as new people move in, they kind of have that territory it's ours and and we have to remind them, nope, it's all of ours, right? I mean, we all, we all live in the same community, we serve the same people. Let's just make it easy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and understand that, and I think that collective ultimately benefits everybody. And I'm telling you that's a unique situation.
Speaker 1:I've been involved in government for about 30 years in Utah and, compared to up north, what we have down here is very unique and that's what I worry about us losing as new people come in yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:Us losing as new people come in yeah, that's interesting. Well, I think one of the other topics of conversation I know is I'd like your perspective on what's going on with Zone 6 and the Northern Corridor, because it seems like there's this little trade-off that's happening that SITLA's basically said if we don't get the Northern Corridor, we're going to develop Zone 6. And it seems like a heavy handed kind of pressure for the environmental groups to say make a decision, we're going to have to have one or the other. What is, what's your perspective on what you know? How? How does that end up being a win-win? Is there a win-win in that category or in that? I think there absolutely is, but.
Speaker 1:but let's go back to SITLA, because I think that's kind of an unfair analysis. You remember, sitla is just following the state mandate. When the state was organized, these institutional lands were set aside to be used for funding schools and also certain institutions that the state had for the blind and the deaf and some others, but mainly for the schools. And that was a unique thing, by the way, I think Very unique. I think Utah was the first one to get those, and then Arizona and New Mexico.
Speaker 2:It was very forward-thinking from my perspective.
Speaker 1:And it was out of necessity, just because so much of the state was in federal ownership and the goal had always been to get it in private ownership. Right, that was. That has always been the goal. Now that's changed over the years by Congress, but people forget that the whole goal was to get that land into private ownership so that it would generate taxes to help fund state government and everything that they need. Right so in any case. But SITLA's mandate clearly is to generate taxes to help fund state government and everything that they need. Right so in any case. But SITLA's mandate clearly is to generate money.
Speaker 1:The courts there's even a Utah Supreme Court case, and I can't remember the name of it many years ago, that said, when they talked about preserving I think it involved preserving some inheld lands, some state land that was surrounded by federal lands, and the argument was well, school children can go and enjoy that right. And the court said no, the whole point of SITLA is to generate money and that's what their fiduciary duty is. They need to do that. So they are just following their fiduciary duty. The fact that they were willing to put that property in zone six in exchange for the Northern Corridor was actually an amazing feat that we were able to do. I'm very grateful for sitla to to do that and and their idea was well, if we get at least the northern corridor done, then some of our property over by i-15 and where the northern yeah exit 13 becomes more valuable, right, right and and uh, and so getting them to do that was was an amazing feat.
Speaker 2:Well, I think and I won't. I have very mixed feelings on it and probably unpopular opinions, at least to the institutions on on SITLA, because I think SITLA does have this mandate, but I think they've gone away from necessarily the mandate and more towards we need to make the most money possible.
Speaker 1:But that is the mandate.
Speaker 2:But the mandate is to take care of generating income for students. But if you have a fiduciary, duty.
Speaker 1:If your sister has five kids and she passes away and says you need to manage this trust for them, your fiduciary duty is to make as much money as you can for those children, and the court was very clear to SITLA that that's their duty. Now, obviously, sitla can take some things into account, like this one where they're saying, okay, yeah, we could see where, if we forego developing this property and we get the northern corridor, this could make this property more valuable. So we got a trade-off there. So we think we can.
Speaker 2:We can do that, but I think they're. They're the the idea of getting money for the students versus educating the students, like what's the best thing for the student. In my mind, the best thing for the student would be to have the best teachers right, or to have the best schools. That's not.
Speaker 1:that's not in sit sitlesslist purview. Right there's is only to make the money and put it in the fund and then that's up to the legislature, that's up to the state school board, that's up to the local school boards to make those decisions on how that money is distributed. How that money is distributed, you know, dealing with teachers pay and all of that. That's that's a whole different realm. Ok, you know they need to sit. Let me to stay in its lane no-transcript except that they're not doing that right.
Speaker 1:So they're actually. I think you know that's a good observation, but what I think your argument right there is saying that what sitla is doing is even better. I do, I yeah, because I like, because they're not, because they're not saying we need to trade this for, for like land somewhere else. They're just saying we're willing to forego development of this.
Speaker 2:Yeah to make.
Speaker 1:Protect this for development current property more valuable right exactly and and so what I'm saying is to be applied for this it's.
Speaker 2:It's definitely a smart strategy for them to protect that it gives gives them value for that land, for future trade value somewhere else where they could then actually go build buildings. But then this property zone six would always be maintained as right as uh protected for most valley and for the turtles or tortoises sorry people, tortoises, not turtles, um, but yeah and and better pristine property, by the way. Much better property.
Speaker 1:Agreed and the studies that they've done, that the BLM has done, shown that there's more native grasses et cetera out there in Zone 6 than there is in the small acreage, and I can't remember how many acres would be like. Four acres would be impacted by the northern corridor.
Speaker 2:Yeah for the road, For the road.
Speaker 1:But all that area, remember, has that grass that's not native, that's been burned several times and so there's there's, this area in zone six is more pristine. That could be saved, that could be saved?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I agree with this too. So why do you think? Why do you think it's not? Why is it a lose for the people that are trying to fight that road? Why do you think they're not seeing that as a win-win?
Speaker 1:Well, and that's a good question, did you go out to the congressional hearing they had at Sand Hollow?
Speaker 2:I didn't. I had Holly Snow, canada. She's the executive director of Conserve Southwest Utah. I had her on here and I couldn't really pin down and get a feeling for why. That didn't feel like a win-win and to them it seemed like they were separate things and in my mind I'm like, well, it's kind of not, because the whole purpose of the Northern Corridor is SITLA's land on exit 13 in Washington Parkway and this is also SITLA land. To me they're clearly connected. But I couldn't get a sense for why these things. This didn't feel like a win-win. I just it was very strange to me. So I was wondering maybe you had a better read on it.
Speaker 1:I don't either, and I and I, I, I know Holly and she, and I respect her.
Speaker 1:She's very smart, oh brilliant person and and, oh my gosh, I forget his name, but but the? But the Conserve Southwest Utah, I think, are great people. Yeah, and they do a lot of great stuff. Oh yeah, absolutely, and we want to protect as much as we can. But you know, what I found interesting about that hearing is that you saw the big, the people with the big badges. All right, they were the Conserve Southwest Utah.
Speaker 1:When I went out to my car to go home and for some reason, three cars caught my eye because I watched the people get in them, only one of those three had two people in them, the other just had one person in and I followed them. We were in the same track all the way from, uh, san Holo off to off the St George Boulevard exit. All three of us I mean there were four of us, you know, I watched them and there there's the three and me, only one had two people in their car. I wanted to stop them and say do you guys see, this is why we need the northern corridor it's because you all drove out in one car one person per car, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:and you because you want that freedom to come and and go when you want to. And let's face it we talked about density earlier. Well, if we're not going have the density, we are never going to be a walkable community, right? I mean, our downtown is starting to become walkable, but most of the areas here are not, and our bus service, unfortunately, we don't have the money to run a bus every half hour and to expand it, so it's very limited for a lot of people to use, and so people drive their cars. So I thought how ironic that here they go out there to protest the Northern Corridor, and each one of them's in a car. Yeah, individually.
Speaker 2:They didn't bike out there.
Speaker 1:They all didn't get in the same car.
Speaker 2:They didn't carpool.
Speaker 1:And that's why we need it. But here's what I don't understand, and you can look at Zone 6 and you can look at the Northern Corridor. I'm looking at downtown St George that we've talked quite a bit about. One of the alternatives that they're saying is to do a one-way couplet, which would mean that they would blow out the medians in St George Boulevard. It would be a one-way road. There would be a lot more traffic on St George Boulevard.
Speaker 1:Right now it's easier to cross the street. We try to make it easier to cross by Ancestor Square and Main Street and that area to increase walkability and to make the boulevard at least more inviting with the planters. All of that was millions of dollars that the city of St George spent when UDOT redid that road UDOT didn't pay for that To make it more walkable and inviting. And now they want to blow all that out and make it a one way that way. And then 100 South, a very nice street that people still live on, make that a one way corridor the other way. And in their environmental statement they say there's no. In fact, this could make the property values go up. Why, in fact, this could make the property values go up. I dare you to go down to 6 South or 5th South in Salt Lake City, where there used to be homes along there, and say is that a livable? Are those livable streets?
Speaker 2:right now? Yeah, definitely not.
Speaker 1:And also it will create an island with Tabernacle right in the middle. Yeah, it will divide our parks from the kids that want to use it. It'll go right by our new school that we sold the elks field so that they could build that new school to make it a magnet school to bring people kids into that area and and buy our new fire station that we built specifically so that we could go both ways with our fire trucks under the freeway to go east or go west on 100 south.
Speaker 2:I mean all of these things, they, they're so I say the alternatives don't make any sense. They damage the human environment even expanding, uh, red hills parkway, like the idea of, you know, having the exit off st george boulevard connect up into north. You know, red hills parkway, and I can't help but think you still, you're still cutting, you know, adding traffic through that, that through, by the way the point which the city helped um switch point to purchase to house previously unhoused people and that they're expanding now to over 100 units.
Speaker 2:I know which is an amazing program. It'll wipe it all out right there and then our dixie rock.
Speaker 1:You know that I'm supposed to call it the sugar loaf, the historic sugar loaf.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's dixie rock, but it is the sugar loaf too. It was. It was sugar loaf, the historic sugar loaf. Yeah, it's Dixie Rock, but it is the sugar loaf too. It was sugar loaf, I think, before it was Dixie Rock.
Speaker 1:But they want to do an interchange up there and that'll totally ruin that atmosphere. I love taking my grandkids over to the desert gardens and they love going, especially at Christmas time and Halloween, when they decorate it. Well, now you'll have a freeway going right past her and they're saying that won't cause any damage to the human environment. I'm saying at this point we've got a northern corridor we can build. That's only four miles long. That impacts a very small acreage.
Speaker 2:That would pull a ton of traffic off of Green Springs, right, because you'd add so much more development on Exit 13, which really is the center. It's kind of the center of the county, you know, once, once things are finally fully developed right there at the center of the county, that interchange going up into zion sr9 is just up the road a little ways, you know. I I think that it's really important that we develop that side because it'll take the pressure off of green springs, which is a people won't be driving into saint georgia, into washington, to shop exactly those things that live out there.
Speaker 1:And also we get 6,000 acres.
Speaker 2:So I was hoping you could tell me what they saw, but I guess we're both at a loss.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm at a loss because I think that, as human beings, we need to protect our environment.
Speaker 2:Does any of the local community members, like the city council, the mayor, even the state legislators, do they even have a say on what happens with zone six? Like, if we write if you know writing our Congressman, I've seen like these petitions and stuff going out they don't really have a say in what happens with zone six, right?
Speaker 1:Not really. We're asking our delegation, of course, to support us on this and with the Northern corridor, and I think I think that that would help. I don't see it really helping with this administration, to be honest.
Speaker 2:It's just, it really is up to the board at SITLA To BLM Well for Zone 6?
Speaker 1:Well okay for Zone 6. Yeah for.
Speaker 2:Zone 6.
Speaker 1:You know, I think you could go to your legislators but again, it ultimately lands on SITLA and their board Right, because they have that mandate, mandate, they have that fiduciary.
Speaker 2:so maybe the governor I mean the may the governor can influence that board to do something differently. But I mean, even like the, the local, the city council members, you know, the mayors, they, they don't really have a say in being able to, to do anything about that right?
Speaker 2:no, no, no, I don't think so. Yeah, sorry to clarify. Did you say this road was only four miles? Well, like the total, like if you look at the width of the road, because I think it's only a four lane road, right uh, it's a three lane road initially initially a three lane road, so it's just the the distance between, uh, the end of green springs and then to the red hills park, red hills parkway four point something miles, okay I, I find that fascinating Anyway, sorry.
Speaker 1:Continue. Yeah, I don't understand what the problem is. It's not like it's a freeway.
Speaker 2:They're not putting a big old freeway there. It's like there's going to be, so it's only a three lane road, I think it's. One passing lane or something like that. I think different like proposals, different a couple of different routes, so I don't want to go on the record of saying how, but I know it's not going to be four lanes initially.
Speaker 1:Okay, I don't believe it's going to be four lanes initially, but the width of it will be wide enough to the width of the right of way, will be wide enough to expand it. Okay, got it, got it. In fact, I think the plan at first is to do an at grade intersection at Red hills parkway, but they could also do a flyover from red hills parkway to over to it.
Speaker 2:But it's just you know, so I guess, before, before we start to wrap up, I kind of want any any other thoughts on. You know the year ahead and projecting out, you know what decisions the cities are going to be making and counties can be making. Is there anything else that jumps out to you? So we have housing water. You know the northern corridor. Is there anything else that jumps out to you? So we have housing water. You know the Northern corridor. Is there anything else that, uh, you know in the next year that, looking down the road, there's some big decisions to make. I know there's the rat, uh, the rap tax. Uh, that's on the ballot this year. Um, you know, is there any any big? You know?
Speaker 1:decisions the city's going to have to make in the next year or two, that that you're kind of forecasting out, that we need to kind of think about. I think the the only thing that let me that that's a good question, because those are all issues that are ongoing and need to be addressed, right? So growth is is huge and infrastructure right. I mean somebody has got to pay for the infrastructure with the inflation that we have right now. We have what are called impact fees.
Speaker 1:The idea of impact fees is that current residents should not have to pay for new growth, right? I mean you living here in your house in Santa Clara that's been here for 20 plus years should not have to also pay in taxes and fees to help offset the cost of infrastructure for new houses coming in. They should pay for themselves, right? So that's what an impact fee is designed for. The problem is we do an impact fee study five years ago and you can imagine what construction costs have done in those five years, right? So when it comes time to build that new water tank or to put in that new sewer line, we're finding that the costs far exceed what we had planned for, which means now we have to pull out existing funds to help fund that growth, to help fund the infrastructure and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:And so that's a challenge right now for our local governments St George City, I believe it's been. I know it's been over 30 years since they've raised property taxes and people.
Speaker 2:Have they considered doing like a special district taxes? Because my client who's moving here from Fargo. He's like we have our taxes, but then we have these special assessment taxes that are almost equal to what their regular taxes are, that they get paid based off new development. So it's like spread out over a long period of time. But is that something that they've considered is doing? Special assessment districts, special tax districts?
Speaker 1:There are some new tools that can be used that were just been implemented by the state, passed in recent legislatures over the last five to six years. Once called a public infrastructure district where the landowners can get together and usually the developer has it owns the land, so there's one landowner or maybe they did this in up on tech ridge right.
Speaker 1:I think they just passed a pid right in on tech ridge for parks and things like that on tech ridge and there's there's various forms of PIDs, but the traditional PID is similar to that where they say, okay, we are going to fund the infrastructure from the property taxes that come out of this, there's going to be an assessment and it's going to be for 20 years or whatever it may be, and it'll be in addition to the taxes you pay the city to help pay for the infrastructure in this district, and so there are some tools that can be used by developers.
Speaker 1:You know, the political problem with that is, after 10 years, you've got someone living, you're living in one of those homes and you've got an extra $200 assessment on your tax bill. And you're looking at your in-laws that live just across the southern parkway, in a different area, and they don't have it, and you're saying, well, why am I paying that? Why am I paying that? Yeah, and you go to your, your elected officials, and say, well, this isn't fair. Yeah, you know they drive on my streets, I drive on their streets. Why do I pay this extra? Yeah, you know that that's an an interesting challenge.
Speaker 2:Kicking the can down the road a little bit yeah.
Speaker 1:But it can be used and it can be used effectively, especially if it's used the right way. So if you're in an area that also will generate sales taxes, so let's say in that area they get a Costco or have an area set aside where they're Shopping mart. Yes, Because you don't have the bricks and mortar that you used to. So you're not going to have a mall anymore, but you have some of those retail outlets and you have some hotels and stuff that have value. That will add to the Generate income.
Speaker 1:Generate income and generate sales taxes. Then you could look at that and say well, you know what, that can kind of help offset the fact that we're going to take some heat for this PID, because they also are going to be contributing to the overall community with those taxes, right?
Speaker 2:So, you know, thinking about that infrastructure development, it's kind of an ongoing discussion on taxes and figuring out ways to generate revenue into the city that's ultimately going to benefit the entirety of the community, right, right? So that one's kind of always a battle.
Speaker 1:Well, you've seen it here in Santa Clara, right? Yeah, I've watched, as the neighbors were maybe not so happy about the development that's gone on around Harman's, but I can tell you that that has helped Santa Clara City tremendously.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Harman's brings in like a million dollars in city tax revenue every single year. Just one grocery store a million dollars. And then look at those others that are going around there.
Speaker 1:that also help. But also those residents, those people that are coming in to stay at those short-term rental communities right there, and the residents there. Now where are they shopping? They're going right there. They're not driving all the way down Sunset, they're not driving into St George. They're staying closer to home, which means fewer miles driven for people. You know, really, in theory some people could walk there if they wanted to. So it also helps the locals right there not to have to travel so far when they need that gallon of milk or something.
Speaker 2:So commercial development incentives, I think, is definitely an important one, at least on the West side over here, because that definitely is going to help, um, help, help us. Especially police fire Cause both Santa Clara and Ivans they share police and fire and and you know, thinking of, uh, energy costs. All these things are. So they're all interwoven together, which is pretty, pretty interesting. But your job seems very fascinating because you're you're getting a look at all of these different things and kind of you know blending all these things together, which seems like it's a difficult job to do, jack of all trades and master of none master of none, yeah.
Speaker 1:Working on our airport, some exciting projects out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:And and having you know, to be up to speed on federal law governing airport funding, as well as going to the state legislature who, over the last two sessions, by the way, have given us $25 million $15 million to build our airport tower, which was very needed. Most people don't know that our air traffic in St George is controlled out of LAX, not Salt Lake Air traffic in St George is controlled out of LAX, not Salt Lake.
Speaker 1:So when you're sitting on the tarmac in Salt Lake, sometimes on that SkyWest jet, you're not waiting for Salt Lake to clear you, You're waiting for LA to clear them to take off. And we have so much GA going on, general aviation especially coming in.
Speaker 2:For you know, when the Formula One was in Las Vegas, If you'd driven out there you'd see all of those Crazy, how many jets were here.
Speaker 1:And how big some of those private jets were. It's amazing. Well, with the PGA too, uh, we're just finding that we need, we need to have that control.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Um tower here, In fact um and then expanding the runway and expanding some of the services and jet way. The runway is good, we're expanding the terminal Terminal. I'm sorry, yeah, that's right, that's right, not the runway itself. Our terminal is getting very crowded and we apologize to people that are traveling. They're used to 15 minutes. They just get through security.
Speaker 1:But yes, it's getting a little bit longer, so get there a little bit earlier, and we just opened up the lounge upstairs in the secure area so that people can walk the stairs, or there's an elevator to get up there and wait up there as well until their flight's ready to go. Yeah, and also get something to eat. Yeah, and now they're getting the liquor license. Should be here any day and they'll have a place for someone to catch a drink if they would like to do that as well and just kind of relax a little bit. But we need more gates.
Speaker 1:Skywest Airline again, like I said, is the number one airline in the country and we brought Stuart Adams, president Adams from our state senate and the governor down here at separate meetings and one of the questions I asked them is you know who's the number one airline out of Salt Lake City? And they all said Delta. Right, yeah, and who's number two? America SkyWest? That's crazy and there are days Chip Child tells me that where SkyWest is the number one airline out of Salt Lake International because of all the flights they take to Bozeman and those destinations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mountain West, there's a lot of people moving around and they're Alaskan, they're United, they're Delta and they're American. So, they fly for all of those and they're headquartered in little St George. They could be anywhere else, but they stay here and we want them to stay here and we're lucky they're here, because no other city in this country of our size has connections to five major hubs with the different airlines that we have.
Speaker 2:I know I got tickets. I'm going to go to the inauguration, the presidential inauguration, and I got tickets right out of St George going to DC it was one stop in Denver.
Speaker 1:It was like 350 bucks. I was like this is amazing and you know. Fingers crossed that the administration does approve the Alaskan merger with Hawaiian.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, I didn't realize they were going through that.
Speaker 1:Because then we could potentially get an Alaskan flight out of here. Wow. That'd be awesome. You know, go over to one of the Western hubs and then out to Hawaii, and that would be great, yeah, so, so there are good things happening here. And do you know? One other plug I want to put, and I will say I'm on the hospital board, but do you know that St George regional was just named the number one hospital in the country?
Speaker 1:Wow, I didn't know that it's amazing and and the, the previous hospital that had that held that NYU, oh wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So is it based off of? Like what's the Patient care? They have a bunch of different dynamics that they look at, ratings and areas for criteria. It'd be interesting for you to have your own Mitch Cloward that lived in Santa Clara for years and now is over the desert region. I don't know if you've had him on the podcast I haven't not yet.
Speaker 1:But just amazing, they just broke ground in Las Vegas for a children's hospital, the first children's hospital in Nevada. Intermountain's doing Wow and it'll be Intermountain's first hospital, I believe in Nevada as well. But if you look at the amazing things that we have here in Little St George and Southwest Utah, it just shows that Dixie spirit of working together.
Speaker 2:The. St George Regional Hospital, formerly known as Dixie spirit of of working together and St George regional hospital, formerly known as formerly yes, formerly known but that that is, that is not just a feather in St George's camp but in Santa Clara, Ivans um.
Speaker 1:hurricane Washington leads all of our areas, all of our cities and towns here, because all of them participate in helping fundraise for that hospital and do great things. And this is just an example of us working together on that arc, rowing together the great things that we do down here.
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