Ep. 04: Overcoming Fear (Road of Trials, Pt. 1)

In this episode, we begin the road of trials in the hero’s journey and explore the concept of fear. Join us as we discuss how fear plays a part in our stories, ways to overcome our own fears, and how confronting and overcoming it ultimately leads to discovering our true purpose.

Transcript

 Kat:
[0:08] The die is cast. The call answered. The future lies in wait. The hero steps forward and begins the road of trials. The perilous journey,where they will face the crooked landscape of their own fears,failures, and weakness. Do they have what it takes? Just as Seneca says, a gem cannot be polished without friction,nor a hero shaped without trials. Welcome to the Fellowship.

 [1:06] Welcome back, and thanks for joining us on the fellowship. My name is Katherine,and I'm joined by my co-hosts, Robert and Steven. We are three friends discussing the many obstacles of life through books,movies, fantasy, faith, and more. This season, we are talking about the hero's journey, upon which we all find ourselves. Last episode, if you tuned in, we discussed how we establish community and the many roles community plays in our lives.
 In this episode, we are kicking off four episodes that focus on the Road of Trials. And today we are discussing fear.
 So, gentlemen, what are you chewing on?
 
 Robert:
[1:45] Um, who's Seneca? Who is this guy?

Kat:
[1:51] He is an ancient Roman philosopher.

Robert:
[1:54] A philosopher.

Kat:
[1:55] Yeah, you have to say that with a very *proper* accent.

Robert:
[1:58] Like a somebody special.

Kat:
[1:59] Yeah.

Stephen:
[1:59] You're saying proper like British when we're talking about Rome.

Robert:
[2:02] Okay, good point. It's a me, Seneca.

Kat:
[2:07] But don't you notice that whenever you have Italians being played in shows or movies, they all have a British accent in every single movie.

Robert:
[2:16] I never picked up on that. I always think of Italian people as the,hey, bison, we're gonna go get some pizza and we're gonna do some mob stuff.

Kat:
[2:24] I doubt Seneca sounded like that.

Robert:
[2:26] You're probably right, yeah.

Kat:
[2:27] He was a dramatist and he specialized in tragedy and story.

Robert:
[2:34] So I think he might have something to say about fear. A little bit of a linguist. Yes, indeed.

Kat:
[2:42] So my, of course, what do we always need at the beginning?

Stephen:
[2:45] Questions.

Robert:
[2:46] Definitions.

Kat:
[2:47] A working definition. So, what is the road of trials?

 Stephen:
[2:54] Hmm. It's the stage in the hero's journey where they start to encounter obstacles.
They start to encounter roadblocks and things that are trying to prevent them from moving forward on the journey.

Robert:
[3:14] Interfere with the conflict perhaps or add to the conflict.

Kat:
[3:18] Okay, so some of the ordeals, what Joseph Campbell says that, it just so happens that anyone in whatever society undertakes for himself the perilous journey into the darkness,he has to descend into the crooked landscapes of his own spirituality,and then he finds himself in this series of trials.
And so I feel like this is like, you know, Mario levels, but since you said,it's me, I'm Mario, these are the Mario levels, right? But we don't just go to Bowser straight off, we have to level up.
And so the road of trials is kind of leveling up, and there's different experiences, there's different fulfillments that the hero faces along the road of trials.

Stephen:
[4:09] I'm already just picturing the whole Mario level. Yeah, you don't go straight to the end. You don't begin at the end, you begin at the beginning where you're learning the controls, you're learning who the character is in the story and what the purpose is and then the layout of the map.

Kat:
[4:26] It's a deepening of the understanding of the problem, right? All of the different lands and and then like you said, Babur's like the conflict and then a deepening understanding of the conflict. So, now that we have our working definition, why is fear the first ordeal that you think we're talking about?

 Stephen:
[4:50] I think it's because it's so powerful. You know, fear, we are human beings andwe're emotional beings. And the emotion of fear is incredibly powerful. It can, in and of itself, it can pause us, it can freeze us in our steps,and it can completely paralyze us. And I think the whole idea of this whole road of trials process is,If we're paralyzed, we can't succeed. We've lost, if we're dead in the water. So I think fear is...it's quite fitting to start with that one because so much of the journey has to do with the courage to partake, the courage to step forward. And the antithesis of that courage is the fear to stay stagnant,the fear that would cause one to stay stagnant.

Kat:
[5:49] Yeah, so choosing courage, choosing stepping into the unknown over comfort. And so the hero faces that initially in the call, but then he's faced with it again on the road of trials.

Robert:
[6:00] Yes.

Stephen:
[6:01] I like how you said that he chooses, the character that the hero chooses. It's interesting, I would suggest that fear is a choice.

Kat:
[6:11] That's very interesting. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

Stephen:
[6:15] Well, we have the ability to control our emotions. emotions. Fear is an emotion. Now we learn to get better at it. Bob, you're giving me the look of like,oh, do we though? I would say that we have the ability, it's within a realm of possibility for us to control our emotions. As we go through life, we are given opportunities and practice to become masters of our emotions.

Robert:
[6:43] To get better at it.

Stephen:
[6:45] To get better at it. Right. there's no situation where any one person can confidently say they've mastered all of their emotions. But the emotions are an expression of something, of a turmoil going on inside. I would say that the emotion in this case, we're talking about fear,there is that sense of self-doubt. You know, with that fear, there is a sense of I can't, or what if I can't, or what if. That question comes up a lot when we're confronted with fear, I put in quotes. So, you know, why is it the first? Well, without confidence to move forward,we won't, can't, we'll never see the finish line.

Robert:
[7:39] We'll never accomplish anything.

 Stephen:
[7:41] Right.

Kat:
[7:42] You struggled, Bob, you struggled with the fact that fear's a choice, why?

Robert:
[7:46] I gave him the look mainly because I was thinking to myself, I could think of a handful of students that fear has crippled them,or even adults. I mean, I have family members that suffer from anxiety. I mean, I, myself, I mean, it's, I don't, I wouldn't say that it's always a choice. There's a lot of the times, I mean, I think we might find strategies that help us navigate it,but, I mean, maybe that's where irrational fear begins to come into play,and it's because of the fact that it is irrational, it becomes difficult to control it.

Stephen:
[8:25] So- If there are strategies to overcome it.

Robert:
[8:28] I shouldn't say overcome it.

Stephen:
[8:30] Well, if there were to manage to navigate, if such strategies exist,then wouldn't it be a choice to not utilize such strategies?

Robert:
[8:41] How does a thought come to be in your mind? Can I always control what is placed maybe subconsciously?
I mean, can I control my thoughts at all times?

Stephen:
[8:53] No.

Robert:
[8:54] So then I would say no to your answer to your question.

Stephen:
[8:57] Fair. Can I control the source of my thoughts? I would say no. But once the thought exists, can I do something about it? I'm confronted with the choice to do something with the thought. You know, we're called to take every thought captive. Every thought captive. And so, no, do I think that we have control over the source of our thoughts? No. but we are called to train that muscle to know how to respond to every thought,including the anxious ones.

Kat:
[9:35] And I think that...we're going to face fear. We're going to face issues in life that elicit a response from us. And it's about how we choose to handle those responses. We can't choose whether or not we're going to respond, right?
If I see something that's terrifying, I'm going to be fearful.

 [9:55] If something happens and, you know, a life is at stake or I'm in a situation that I'm unsure of, I'm going to be fearful, but then it's how,how do I react to that rumbling? Right? I'm in the rumble. I'm in fear. I, how do I react to that? Like, what do I do in that moment?
 
 Robert:
[10:13] So are you saying that you, you're making the choice to enter into that fear? Is that what you're trying to get at? Or?

Kat:
[10:20] No, I think that we enter the fear and then we make the choice how we respond to that fear.

Stephen:
[10:24] Yes.

Robert:
[10:25] Okay. I agree.

Kat:
[10:26] So I think we can't choose whether we enter the fear or not,like you said. I think that happens automatically. Forgive my snap.
It's like, that happens automatically. But then it's just what do we do in thatmoment? And we're going to talk about strategies later.
So we might be getting ahead of ourselves a little bit. Yeah.

Stephen:
[10:46] I think it's just natural to recognize that there is a response,there is a way to respond and there are ways not to respond.

Kat:
[10:53] Right.

Stephen:
[10:54] But we recognize the need for a response. So fear necessitates response.

Kat:
[11:01] It does. And it, and...

Stephen:
[11:03] And we'll get there.

Kat:
[11:04] Yeah. So what do we fear? What do you think the hero fears the most? What do we, a better question, who, or what do we as the heroes fear the most?

Robert:
[11:17] I think death, that's me, but I know where you're going with this,so I'm going to temper that and just kind of step back a little bit.

Kat:
[11:26] No, I want you to explore that.

Robert:
[11:28] I fear, and I guess the fear of death or being sick, not being able to provide for my family, not being able to take care of them. There might be a much broader overarching title you can put that under perhaps. But yeah, I mean, I think most people, I mean, life is important. We value it.

Stephen:
[11:55] I would add, or just summarize what you just said, inadequacy. Oh. A hero is called on a journey and there is a built-in assumption that they will see the journey to its end.
If they don't have that assurance that they will see the journey to the end,I think that that fear comes into play.

Kat:
[12:20] Am I good enough?

Stephen:
[12:21] Am I, can I actually do it? Can I, is it really within me to do it? And I would say that at first the answer is no.

Kat:
[12:30] Right.

Stephen:
[12:33] That kind of question is what they discover early on in the journey. It's what Luke found out the hard way. Right. I can't do this without my friends,without training, without preparation. I can't just jump in and try to take down Lord Vader.

Kat:
[12:50] So you would argue that a hero does not have what it takes in the very beginning.

Stephen:
[12:55] I would, right.

 Robert:
[12:57] Yeah, I would agree. You agree? Definitely. Yeah, I mean, it is a road of trials. It's what we learned from it. It's a journey, the road.

Kat:
[13:05] And it's funny because one of the trials is fear. And one of the biggest fears is that we don't have what it takes.
And so it's like our own fear is the thing that's going to teach us. By recognizing where we are weak, it teaches us in where we need to grow. And it's almost like we fulfill our own fear and then satiate that fear or solve that fear through our own growth.

Stephen:
[13:31] So for anyone who follows our social media, I put a quote up there in promoting this episode. And it's from Mike Tyson. It says, fear is the greatest obstacle of learning. Without fear, can we really know what we need to learn?
So I love Mike Tyson, who's a champ as far as boxing goes.
And everybody would look at Mike Tyson and go, you're fearless,you're freaking Mike Tyson. But for Mike Tyson to go, fear is the greatest obstacle to learning,that tells me that he had to go through process himself. Kind of cool, right?

Robert:
[14:14] That is cool.

Kat:
[14:16] For sure.

Robert:
[14:17] Somebody you would think that would be fearless.

Stephen:
[14:20] Oh, how could, what would he have to fear? He's the strongest, fastest, best boxer. Well, I'm speaking from somebody who's not a boxer, but I do know...

Robert:
[14:30] Really?

Stephen:
[14:32] Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for the positive affirmation. No, but I do know that There are...
how many of us look at other people and say, you've got it all made,You've got it all together. How could you be afraid of A, B, and C? And those are the questions that we ask because we're feeling those very same things. And I don't want to like deviate too far, but we talk about the imposter syndrome and feeling like, man, I don't have it all together. I see people have it altogether and I'm not like them.

Robert:
[15:11] It's an illusion.

Stephen:
[15:12] It's completely false.

Robert:
[15:13] Right. We're all imposters. We are. We are.

Kat:
[15:17] We are. And I think, we think that other people don't feel that same way. And so we're sitting in a room and you're like and you feel like I am an imposter here I don't belong here at this table. I don't belong on this journey.

Stephen:
[15:31] I'm not the hero But then everybody else feels that way too and we're scared to death of if people find out that we're not right We yeah,because we have it in our head that they're going to judge us for not being what we think we need to be And I have in my notes that I was preparing,mental notes that I was preparing, the idea of the imposter syndrome comes from the place of feeling inadequate, but expecting perfection. When we expect perfection of ourselves and under-perform, then that idea of being put in a room with other people who we feel like I've already reached that level of perfection we're going for, can very well create that dissonance between what is and what we expect.

 [16:21] Right. So, yeah, the imposter syndrome is a very powerful enemy.
 
 Kat:
[16:29] So it's interesting because Ayanla Van Zandt says, she categorizes four primal fears. And Bobbers, I know you have an issue with this because you're like,death is the big one. Why is it on here?

Robert:
[16:41] Well, when you showed me what the categories are, I can see how death would fit into probably two. Do you wanna go through the four?

Kat:
[16:52] Yeah, I'll go through them. So the first one is fear of losing someone's love, so rejection. Fear, number two, fear of being powerless or helpless, so safety, so kind of thinking, I guess there could be emotional safety, but also physical safety, like the lowest here on Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
We've got number three, the number one human addiction, it's not chocolate, it's control. So being out of control. Number four, not being seen as valuable, worthy, or necessary.

Stephen:
[17:24] Interesting.

Kat:
[17:26] And so I think that kind of goes with the imposter syndrome. Like I'm not worthy here.
And so our biggest fear is that, are we good enough? Do we have what it takes? Or not biggest, but one of the biggest.

Robert:
[17:41] I'm just thinking, how does this play out in, you know.
Star Wars, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings. How would Frodo have seen himself in this?

Stephen:
[17:57] Luke was very clear with how he saw himself. When Obi-Wan was saying,you are a son of a Jedi, Luke was like, who am I? He didn't know the answer to that question and that was the beginning of his journey, was figuring out who you are as the chosen one. And it was never, I find it interesting, Obi-Wan never actually told Luke, you are the chosen one. Obi-Wan needed Luke to find that out on his own. But he had to introduce the conflict, he had to introduce where Luke was in the story and why Luke had a part to play in the story, he gave him the call.

Kat:
[18:40] Mm-hmm. So do we fear, you know, we fear not having what it takes,not being good enough, but through the road of trials, we gain those skills. Mm-hmm. Do we also fear actually having what it takes? Do we actually fear having like being good enough like Having good having the power having the ability. Do we fear that?

Robert:
[19:08] I don't think so. I mean It would be something that I would look forward to I would just have to be careful to not get too proud With okay with that but to be capable and fearless Imagine how you can use that for the kingdom. I mean, just that would be beautiful.

Kat:
[19:28] Right. I'm going to tell a brief story here.

 [19:32] Recently, I took a big exam, the leadership, the feely.
 It's got terror stories across the school district.
 And I recently took it, and I remember just ahead of time being in a state of fear because I was almost in a trap of comparison. All these people have passed this. If I don't pass it, who am I?
 
 Robert:
[19:54] {Siri} Oh, there's a problem. Please try again.".

Stephen:
[19:59] Siri has a problem.

Robert:
[20:00] Siri was listening.

 Kat:
[20:01] Siri's listening. She has a problem with my Phele story.
So I was kind of in this trap of comparison and I was overwhelmed. It was the next day of the exam, and you guys had prayed over me,and so I felt confident in that. But Stephen came in, he goes,I know what your problem is.
And he reads this quote to me. Do you have it?

Stephen:
[20:24] I do.

Kat:
[20:24] You want to read it?

Stephen:
[20:25] I knew you were going with this.

Kat:
[20:26] So, maybe not the whole thing, but...

Stephen:
[20:28] It's from Marianne Williamson. Recognize the author? No.
She famously wrote, Our Deepest Fear. And return... Do you recognize the poem?

Kat:
[20:39] A return to love from her book, A Return to Love.

Stephen:
[20:43] Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? And so she goes on, breaking down our role as creation under a creator. He has created us to be in his image. Who are we not to be bold?

Kat:
[21:21] You're a child of God.

Robert:
[21:22] Bro, you gotta share that with me. That's good.

Kat:
[21:26] But it's this trap of comparison that we can get into between confidence and humility. And I feel like we, in the road of trials, we can sometimes get into a point where we start, we get into a cycle of self-doubt, which turns in,you know, with fear, self-doubt. We have to remember who we stand on.

Stephen:
[21:48] Right. Hmm. And, how would you, what if faith is not a factor? I find it so difficult to speak to fear, to speak through fear,without having a sense of faith in someone or something greater than me. For myself, knowing that I am a created being, created by a creator,has really helped me recognize that the fear is just a part of his plan.

 Robert:
[22:28] I never thought of it that way. Why does he say to fear not then?

Stephen:
[22:34] Well, he tells us a bunch of things and he's testing us. I think that fear...

Kat:
[22:38] He does say to fear the Lord.

Robert:
[22:40] That is true.

Kat:
[22:41] And it is the same Hebrew word, interestingly.

Stephen:
[22:44] The idea of fear is the lack of trust.
Don't fear, because if you do that, you're going to take your eyes off of me. And if it's the hero's journey, don't fear, because if you do,you're going to take your eyes off of the road that I've placed you on,the road that you've been called to. If you fear, you'll fall. And without that sense of purpose and calling, you won't be able to get backup and move forward. You won't know which way's up. You won't know which way is forward. You won't have that sense of direction.

Kat:
[23:21] So. So, what are the signposts that you're currently in fear?

Stephen:
[23:33] Like how do you know?

Kat:
[23:34] How do you recognize it inside of yourself?

Robert:
[23:38] I feel like we're going back to episode one here where I get really sweaty,I start to get fidgety, my chest gets tight.

Kat:
[23:46] You can hear Bob Bresley with the papers in the back of the podcast. Yes.

Robert:
[23:52] Anxiety, I think, manifests itself in a lot of different ways for different people. But for me, my chest gets tight. I feel like I might want to throw up. And I think a lot of it depends on what type of fear it is, too. So sometimes my stomach might start turning, shortness of breath. Yeah.

Stephen:
[24:15] Can we maybe characterize, which is that fear you're talking about?

Kat:
[24:22] You are fearful of something.

Stephen:
[24:24] Okay.

Kat:
[24:25] How does it manifest in your behaviors, in your emotions, and your actions?

Stephen:
[24:31] I know for mine, it's I implode.
I take all of my stress and I internalize it and I shut everything out and I kind of isolate myself because if I don't know how to overcome it,if I don't know how to function or operate in a particular environment,I'm not the best at asking for help.
And because I am not the best asking for help in a time of need, I feel alone. And then that sense of isolation kind of becomes a loop. I'm isolated, I isolate myself, which makes me feel isolated.

Kat:
[25:13] Right.

Stephen:
[25:15] So for me, how do I know I'm operating in a cycle of fear? When I'm doing things alone.

Kat:
[25:19] Oh, interesting.

Robert:
[25:21] Okay.

Kat:
[25:22] And we talked about that last time in community and how kind of the evil force is isolated and wants to draw us into independence. So it's interesting that that's kind of where you land in a place of fear.

Stephen:
[25:36] It's interesting that, you know, you can be independent, but be in a good place.
Right. I don't think that independence is the absence of fear.

Kat:
[25:48] Yeah, that was the wrong word. Isolation is better.

Stephen:
[25:50] Isolation.

Kat:
[25:50] Yeah.

Stephen:
[25:50] So, the enemy to any journey wants to pull us away from a support system,whatever that support system is, because we are far weaker in isolation than we are in groups.
So, I think that that is a tremendous strategy for, I say, the enemy,whatever the enemy of of success or the end of that journey. Whatever the enemy wants is going to try to break you down to the smallest possible piece.
And for us, that means breaking us away from community,breaking us away from support, breaking us away from accountability,breaking us away from the places that would cause us to grow and mature and develop those skills that we need. So that's how to tear a one down.

Robert:
[26:49] As you're saying that, I'm recognizing it in my own head. Everything you just said made complete sense, and I'm like, I'm getting in my head rather than,hey, Stacy, this is what I'm struggling with right now. Can you pray for me? Or can we walk through this together? Hey,Cat, Steven, this is what is happening. But if I allow myself, that's where I begin to get tightness of chest and all that, because I'm not bringing it to my support system.

Stephen:
[27:21] It's funny you just said, that's what's happening. When we're by ourselves,we tend, it's very easy to slap a label on something and say, that's what it is. And we operate under the assumption that we're right. But when we're in a community, we have each other to kind of bounce those ideas. Hey, I'm feeling this way, right? I think it's this and somebody from the outside would go It's not that at all.

Kat:
[27:46] You're dealing with a B and C It's like speaking the same emotional vernacular, right? We have words for these feelings and sometimes they're just umbrella words and we have to go deeper into the well to really understand This is a manifestation. It's not what it really is, right? I've noticed that when you two are dealing with something, you isolate. I don't isolate. Do you guys know what I do?

Stephen:
[28:12] You plug in.

Kat:
[28:14] I plug in, but I also- You fill the space with other things.
I do. Yes. I didn't recognize that, but that's true. I get angry. And I think sometimes I get angry and I get self-righteous and,and I enter this space where I feel like I'm right. And if I go deeper into that, you know what I find? I find hurt and I find fear. And it's my first response to get angry because if I'm angry, then I'm strong, right? And that fear, that hurt can't get me. And I'm, I'm afraid of that hurt. I'm afraid of diving into that well, because then I have to swim in it. I've got to unpack it. Why am I afraid here in this moment? And if I'm angry, then I can be angry about all this surface stuff,what you've done to me, but that's not what this is about. This is about me. It's about my hurt and dealing with it, my fear and dealing with it. So it's interesting. You can call me out on that now, just so you know.

Stephen:
[29:18] Ha. I'm just thinking about how we all manifest our fear differently.

Kat:
[29:27] It's true.

Stephen:
[29:29] And we have to know what fear looks like in others.
I think that's really important because it can help us kind of navigate our own fear. So, if we can see how Bob operates when he's in fear, we're not operating in that same place when we see him operating in fear.

Kat:
[29:53] So we can help him.

Stephen:
[29:54] There's perspective.

Kat:
[29:54] There's perspective.

Robert:
[29:55] I want to add something to this. This week, somebody had talked to us about how do we address fear. And I thought it was interesting, like, the way we do that is in community, right? If I can see, and if I know you, I see you every day and we communicate with one another, I begin to pick up on all your little cues, all your little tics,and I can sit there and say, Stephen, get out of your classroom. It's time to eat lunch. We're eating lunch together. Get your butt in here right now.

Kat:
[30:24] I can tell when he's isolated, but he's like, he doesn't show up for lunch. We're like, uh-oh.

Robert:
[30:30] But that only happens because we know you.

Stephen:
[30:33] Right.

Robert:
[30:34] So it becomes important to, I mean, you have to allow yourself to be vulnerable first in order to enter into community so somebody can know you.

Stephen:
[30:43] I love how the conversation, each of these conversations kind of piggyback on previous episodes.

Robert:
[30:49] Of course, yeah.

Kat:
[30:49] It's all connected.

Stephen:
[30:50] This is all about the road of trials, but we've- The hero's journey. We could not have had this conversation had we not talked about community first.

Kat:
[30:57] Yeah, that's true.

Stephen:
[30:58] And the importance of community.

Kat:
[31:00] So there is a reason behind our madness of doing this cycle, right?

Robert:
[31:05] Right.

Stephen:
[31:07] Yeah, I mean, think of Lord of the Rings, they could not have gone through the Mines of Moria had they not had some semblance of fellowship first. Yes, good point. Recognizing that they could all trust Gandalf. They don't necessarily know everything ins and outs about each other,but they know they can trust Gandalf.

Kat:
[31:25] They know they can trust Gandalf.

Stephen:
[31:26] And if Gandalf says this is the way, then by golly, this is where we're going. When they lost Gandalf, that was a blow to their safety. And they had to learn to develop and cultivate that community between each other,despite their differences.

 Kat:
[31:46] It's interesting because I wonder if that's the same with us with God,right? We come together. I'm not saying God is like Gandalf is God,but we could just use it as a symbol for a brief moment in time. You know, we come together with the common purpose of love. And then I'm not saying, you know, that love disappears, but I'm saying,but there's times that we face trials that pull us away and we have each other that we have to lean on and learn about each other through that trial, that particular dark moment. And we can't, like you said, we can't get through it without each other. We can't get through that trial. We have to keep each other growing,keep each other in check to move forward.

Stephen:
[32:30] I'm already looking at the question you have next. I don't wanna go there.

Kat:
[32:36] You can't go there yet.

Stephen:
[32:37] But I'm thinking about this idea of fear and navigating it would be so much more difficult. I would even say impossible done in isolation.

Robert:
[32:49] Yes.

Stephen:
[32:53] Like, I'm afraid thinking about having to go through this life alone. It's not just about being alone, but that aloneness is really rooted in a fear of failure.

Robert:
[33:08] I'm wondering, I'm just, I'm thinking of the naysayers. Like,what would somebody say? I've done this all by myself. I mean, is that possible?
I mean, is it possible to navigate life alone? No.

 Stephen:
[33:22] I don't think that we were made to be able to do it alone.

Robert:
[33:26] I agree with you. I'm just imagining, like, what would somebody say to that? Like, I can be successful without others.

Stephen:
[33:32] Remember that perspective cone that we were talking about? One might say,I got here by my own doing.
Their family might say differently. Right. Their coworkers might say differently. Their employers might say differently.
So just because one doesn't acknowledge the other people in the equation does not mean those people don't exist.

Kat:
[33:57] Yeah, good point.

Robert:
[33:58] That's very good.

Stephen:
[33:59] And instead, it just highlights a character flaw.

Kat:
[34:03] That's a great point.

Stephen:
[34:04] That their journey is not over.

Kat:
[34:06] I have a little story, you ready? Yes. It's about loneliness. God creates Adam and he's lonely. So God says, "do not fear my child, I will create a partner to accompany you and she will be known as woman. She will be obedient, loyal, passionate, nurturing." Adam hesitates. "What is this going to cost me?" He asks. God responds, "an arm and a leg."
Adam retorts, "what can I get with a rib?
I thought that went with loneliness."

Robert:
[34:37] That's good. Yeah. That's good.

Kat:
[34:41] We're all looking at each other like, okay, that's great. I'm breaking all sorts of rules of social sensibilities here by bringing in a somewhat sexist joke,but it's okay. All in good company.

Robert:
[34:52] Yes.

Stephen:
[34:53] The feminist gives a sexist joke.

Kat:
[34:56] I'm not a feminist.

Stephen:
[34:57] You're not, you're really not. You represent strong femininity.

Kat:
[35:03] I do. There are feminist qualities, I would say, but this is not a character profile of counter-Madagascar, so let's keep moving here. Okay, so we've talked about signposts and how we currently know that we're in fear. What do you think works to break the cycle of fear in our lives? Like, how do we interrupt this? When we started off in our first episode in The Call, we talked about The Call, and some of the feedback that we got was, "you guys talked about The Call, but you didn't talk about how you overcome the fear or the, you know,the pressure of accepting The Call." So we really want to talk about strategies to break the cycle of fear. Not that we're experts.

Robert:
[35:49] We're not psychologists.

Kat:
[35:50] No, we're not experts. We don't have the answers, but...

Robert:
[35:54] We're talking from experience. We're talking from experience. Personal.

Kat:
[35:57] And some other people have posted and brought in some ideas and strategies as well. So we'll talk about those.

Robert:
[36:04] I know. So Stephen, when we knew we were going to address this,Stephen's like, I got a list. And I too have a list. So I'm like,I'm looking forward to this section.

 Kat:
[36:14] I got nothing, so...

Robert:
[36:15] Oh, cool. Because you manage it so well. You don't need these.

Kat:
[36:19] Yeah. Okay.

Robert:
[36:22] The first thing that always comes to mind when I think of fear is the litany of fear from Dune. I don't know if you're familiar with it. Love it. "Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past me, I will turn to see fears path. Where the fear has gone, there will be nothing. Only I will remain." And I just love that because, I mean, going back to the basics is, I need to recognize my fear and treat it as something that is transient and will leave, right? And when it leaves, I'm able to see, what it created what it what I allowed Kind of going back to what you had initially said about We have control over it. Mm-hmm, right? I have a couple of strategies I'd like to share but you want to share something first I just want to put a little note that this is the book Dune by Frank Herbert. Yes.
Yes Mm-hmm superb book by the way.

Kat:
[37:30] Yeah, everybody should read it I just want to pipe in real quick,and then I know that you're stewing over there. Yeah, he is. Stephen's got smoke coming out of his ears from his mental work right now.

Stephen:
[37:41] No, I have a lot to say about fear.

Kat:
[37:43] Okay. So this reminds me of something called cognitive behavioral therapy. And cognitive behavioral therapy is essentially leaning into the uncomfortable sensation. It's used a lot with people who have ritualistic OCD. and I know that because I have it. And so OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder, is not just like wanting everything color-coded. It goes way beyond that. And it goes to the point where there can be compulsions and rituals that need to be fulfilled in order for somebody to feel satiated in their brain.
And so this, that's essentially what cognitive behavioral therapy does,is it allows us to feel the uncomfortable feeling and then let it pass over. And then realized that the thing that I was so worried about did not happen. And the thing that I was so fearful of, that restricted me so much,it didn't happen, it's immaterial. It was false evidence appearing real. It was acronym of fear.

Robert:
[38:50] Fear, that's very good. Remember your dad taught me that.

Kat:
[38:53] He did give me that. Did he tell you that too?

Robert:
[38:56] Yeah, when we were at your house, yeah. Your dad told me that.

Kat:
[38:58] Oh, that's funny.

Robert:
[38:59] That's a great dude, that false evidence appearing real. That's beautiful. All right, Steve, let the smoke pour, my friend.

Stephen:
[39:07] I like to think of fear as a fork in the road.
You know, fear, we have an opportunity, we have a choice to make when we've encountered, when we encounter fear.
Do we see it as a threat or do we see it as an opportunity?
There's two different ways we can go with that. There are some fears that come up as a result of a very real threat against our body, against our family. You know, we don't look at those as opportunities, we look at those as,it needs to be destroyed. My family comes first and I need to defend my family. Or my body, my life, okay, there's a car coming, wrong lane,wrong way, going 60 miles an hour, we don't have time to think about that.

Kat:
[39:52] That's an instinctual response to fear.

Stephen:
[39:55] But when we're confronted with a fear that causes us to stop...where we have the opportunity to think about it, kind of take a step back and look at it from a third-person perspective. One of the things that's helped me kind of navigate fear is look at, is there an opportunity for learning?
Is this highlighting something that I could learn? Fear has a way, just like Mike Tyson identified, fear has a way of being an educator. And we can choose to run away from the opportunity to learn or we can,like you just said Kat, lean into it because I think we will surprise ourselves when we lean into the very thing we feel like we want to run away from.It's counterintuitive to do that.

Kat:
[40:50] Right.

Stephen:
[40:50] But it's awesome. One of the strategies that we as educators teach our students is to have a growth mindset.
Without that growth mindset, any opportunity for change is a threat. And we have to think about that. If change is meant to make me better, then why would I run away from that?

Kat:
[41:22] Right. Well, I mean, if you're a hero, sometimes it's this large swinging axe, and, you know, a plague with crocodiles underneath it, and, you know,we've got to traverse these obstacles to get to the other side, and...

Stephen:
[41:36] Kind of wish I didn't have that extra meal just before...

Kat:
[41:39] Right, exactly. And so, but in getting to the other side, right, there's growth, and then there's, there's also the entering of the next stage.

Stephen:
[41:49] Mm-hmm. The promise that there is more to come.

Kat:
[41:51] Right. So this wasn't just it. This is to prepare you for what's ahead.

Robert:
[41:57] That's a hard sell though, I feel. That's a hard sell. I mean,some people don't quite know how to navigate or how to take that step. It's like, okay, I see that fork in the road.
This looks a bit hard. I don't know that I want to go that way, you know.

 Stephen:
[42:12] So, when we think about fear as just an emotion, it can control us. But if we think about fear as an intentional part of our makeup that is meant to guide us, I think that can change how we respond to the thing that is bringing about that fear.
We were all, fear is a natural part of every one of us. Right.
So let's learn from that fear. What is the fear trying to tell us?
In the same way that we respond to certain people that make us feel love,you know, oh they make, you know, that person makes my stomach butterflies and my heart flutter and all those things. Okay, so we've learned to respond to those feelings with, okay,I'm gonna go closer to that person.
We learn to respond to it. Well, when we're younger, when we're 10,11, 12, those butterflies might make us do things that we wouldn't necessarily do here as adults because we've learned how to navigate those emotions. So I think that if we can learn to navigate those, I would say that fear is a very difficult emotion to navigate.

Kat:
[43:34] Right.

Stephen:
[43:35] If we can learn how to do it, then we can get better.

Kat:
[43:38] Yeah.

Stephen:
[43:38] And if we wanna get better, then we have to be willing to go into it.

Kat:
[43:41] Right, so it's that well of hurt and getting to the root of it. So we've talked about our response to fear and understanding that,and then allowing that to help us deal with the fear. We've talked about letting it pass and kind of go over us. We've talked about perspective, so bringing other people in to help us face the fear.

Stephen:
[44:03] Can I add one more, one more point?

Kat:
[44:05] Yeah, we can add as many more as we want.

Robert:
[44:07] Yeah, so- This is not a complete list.

Kat:
[44:10] Oh. we've talked about so far.

Stephen:
[44:12] I just wanna make sure, like, before we... If we...

Kat:
[44:14] No, because I've got one to share from our listeners.

Robert:
[44:17] Okay, one more.

Stephen:
[44:19] If we can pretend that we are beginners, then the fear of failure is not as much of a threat, I don't know how to put that. But if we just forget about being perfect and recognize that perfection is not something we'll ever attain, we'll never be to be able to achieve,and that anything beneath that is just a part of the process. You know, whether it be fear of not getting that job, okay, there's gonna be a better job.
Or fear of failing somebody, okay, there's opportunity for reconciliation. You know, we're not meant to be perfect.
We can't be, we're imperfect beings, right? If we can just accept that, then we can be more at peace with the process of getting better.

 Kat:
[45:14] Yeah, no, I was gonna add one of our listeners, a friend of ours, Kelly, she mentioned a response to fear like a NASA launching. And she does a countdown in her head, like counting down from 10 or 5. And then she knows at the end of that countdown, even though she's in fear,she's going to do it anyway.

Robert:
[45:31] That's good.

Kat:
[45:33] And I like that a lot because it's like giving in In education,we give kids wait time in the classroom.
Like we post a question and we can't expect a response right away. We get wait time. A lot of people like will ask my daughter questions and then they'll expect a response right away. And when she does it, they'll ask another question and we're 15 questions in, she's still thinking about the first.
But if we give wait time, it allows a cleaner response.
And I think that's the same with us when we're in fear. if we allow wait time,it gives the body maybe the initial adrenaline push, clearing of the mind,and then we can really just do the thing and focus on the goal. And so that was Kelly's suggestion. I thought that was a great suggestion.

Stephen:
[46:17] Thanks, Kelly!

Robert:
[46:18] Thanks, Kelly. Thank you.

Kat:
[46:20] You have another one, Bobbers?

Robert:
[46:21] Grounding, grounding techniques. I didn't really know about these until recently,and I found them really useful.
Interestingly enough, it was a book that my daughter read called Guts,and it's a graphic novel, whatever.
And in it, there's this girl that I guess suffers from emetophobia and she...learns how to do grounding. And I'm like, okay, well, let me talk with my psychiatrist about this. Let me like try to understand this.

Kat:
[46:56] What is emetophobia?

Robert:
[46:58] Fear of throwing up. Oh, okay. All right.

Stephen:
[47:01] I think I have that too, then.

Robert:
[47:03] I think most humans probably have that. Yeah. Nobody wants to do that. I don't want that. No.

Stephen:
[47:10] Metaphobia?

Robert:
[47:11] Emit, like E-M-I-T. Emitophobia.

Stephen:
[47:13] Emitophobia. That's even gross to think about.

Robert:
[47:17] Yeah, it is, it is. in the book, it was very scary for this young girl. She's 12, 13 years old. So, I mean, you can understand she's going through puberty,trying to navigate all of her feelings, and that on top of it created a fear that she didn't quite know how to handle in her youth. And grounding, I thought, was really an interesting strategy. And normally, one of the most basic things you can do is the five, four, three, two, one, five things you can see. You just stop five and you're looking at these things in a non-judgmental way. Five things you can see, four things you can feel, three things you can hear,two things you can smell, and if possible, one thing you can taste in your immediate environment. And you're supposed to look at it without judgment, and it's supposed to cause you to be present. And one thing that I have found is for myself, my daughter does this for me.

Kat:
[48:17] She automatically grounds you.

Robert:
[48:18] It is divine. I'm telling you, God has put her in situations with me where I feel something coming on, like when we were on vacation in North Carolina,and she found this snail. We were at this beautiful waterfall, we had the dog with us,and I'm just like worrying about, Oh, you know, we can't leave the dog at the place anymore because he did this.
And anyways, she has the snail and she's letting it crawl in her hand. And we're just watching the way the light from the sun reflects through the snails shell. And it was the most beautiful green color than just listening to Charlotte's voice. And it just was everything else went away. And it was the most beautiful, peaceful, present moment that I've experienced in a while. And I believe that's the Holy Spirit, right? God is blessing you in that moment, right? And it was just superb. And it's like, okay, I was grounding myself, but in it, something more divine, I believe, was happening. And it's happened numerous times.

 [49:30] Charlotte knows how to do that for me.
 
 Kat:
[49:33] It's interesting that somebody you're so close with helps to ground you, right? That relationship, that connection, and that love. I would say that out of everything, out of all the strategies that kind of ground me, I always go back to Isaiah 41:10, "do not fear for I am with you." And if I remember that, then I can breathe. "Do not be afraid, dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you. you. I will uphold you with my righteous right hand." And there are times that I just don't want to believe that, you know, like there's times where I'm just, it doesn't feel real. And when I allow myself to step into that promise, I can let fear go. Because I know who holds me, and I know who loves me. And stepping into that love, and that love is reflected through Charlotte,that love is reflected in our friendships, right? And when we see it in a stranger's face that's smiling, we see that love. And it's taking the time to see it. Maybe that's part of grounding,is that taking the time to see God's love and his upholding of us throughout our lives and throughout our experiences.

Robert:
[51:00] You've lost sight.

Kat:
[51:01] Right. Now get back to it. Look here. Pay attention.

Robert:
[51:05] Eckhart Tolle refers to that as the now, being present.

Stephen:
[51:11] Fear is the absence of trust, right?
You know, I look at the way your children interact with you,and because of the trust that you have instilled, the trust that you've cultivated with your kids, when you say something, they do it because they trust you.

 Kat:
[51:40] Ideally When it's important, right?

Stephen:
[51:43] If you were to tell Jamie Get over here.
Hey duck or Run, I don't think he's gonna question you right,right Aliana it's not gonna question you when you say get over here now, right?

Kat:
[52:00] Yes, mommy means business. There's a bone.

Stephen:
[52:03] I think she doesn't work for her daddy, but So you pulled up that passage,there's one that I wanted to share that I know many have heard be anxious for nothing,but it's like many passages regularly used, there's probably more context to it than what is readily shared. And so the passage, "be anxious for nothing", comes from Philippians. That's a Bible verse, and I'm trying to scroll to it in just enough time.

 [52:45] Verse six, "do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and pleading with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God."  I think that aspect of love, in everything with thanksgiving, let your request be known to God. If we have a grateful heart. in the situation that we find ourselves fearing or when we find ourselves confronted with fear. If we are grateful for the opportunity to be where we are, grateful for what we have, who we have in our lives, that gratitude takes us to a very different place than fear wants to take us. Fear wants to take us to a place of despair.
 
 Kat:
[53:39] And scarcity.

Stephen:
[53:40] And scarcity. Gratitude takes us to a place of fulfillment.

Kat:
[53:41] Fear wants to bring us to scarcity and gratefulness brings us to fullness.

Stephen:
[53:48] It's why the rest of that passage at the very end said, "so finally, whatever is good, whatever is pure, whatever is right, whatever is great,set your mind on those things."

Kat:
[53:58] Right.

Stephen:
[53:59] It's a mindset.

Kat:
[54:00] That.

Stephen:
[54:02] So if we, if we find ourselves encountering fear and we find ourselves imploding or wanting to run away,focus on the good, focus on what has been a blessing to you and it'd be amazing how much your worldview changes.

Robert:
[54:23] Fear can't exist where there's praise, right?

Kat:
[54:27] We can't get through the road of trials unless we're grateful for where we are now and then allow the fear and the experience to take us where we need to be.

--- 

Thanks for joining us today as we discussed fear on the road of trials. We want to leave you with a thought so you can be a part of the discussion. Share a story about how fear played a part in making a difficult decision and what you did to overcome it. Respond to this prompt or make comments about this episode on our Facebook, Instagram, or on Spotify.
You can also find us on our website, thefellowshippodcast.com, or write to us at questions at thef3llowshippodcast.com. On our next episode, we are exploring how the road of trials can be as much internal as external. Join us as we investigate the the potential of heroes to shift from selfish to selfless on the journey. We are so glad you tuned in today, and we hope you join us next time on The Fellowship.