0:00:04 - (Debbie Draybi): Welcome to Finding Sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life. My name is Debbie Draby, and I'm a psychologist and a proud maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all this beauty and. And all its pain.
0:00:32 - (Debbie Draybi): I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast. So please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcasts. So welcome back to another episode on Finding Sanctuary. We're really excited today. We've got a three part series that we've started thinking about and exploring career choices and some of the challenges in that journey.
0:01:08 - (Debbie Draybi): And we thought it's a great opportunity to bring in some new guests. I know we've done that in the past just to get some different perspectives from our guests around their experiences and to hear some lived experiences, particularly. Sometimes we get bogged down in our work and our world. So it's nice to just get a different perspective and to share and to bring in examples and different ways of being. So our first guest today is Joe Zaden, who is a member of the maronite community.
0:01:39 - (Debbie Draybi): And I'm not gonna say too much about Joe, because I'm gonna give him a chance to introduce himself and tell us a bit about his experience, his career journey, and what's led him to do the work that he does. I know Joe's doing some incredible work in the community, supporting young people, particularly young men in our community, to find their way after leaving, you know, school and leaving often a very structured and very nurturing environment into the big bad world and trying to navigate that. So I said, I'm not going to say much, but clearly I've said a lot. So, Jo, I just. Thank you.
0:02:16 - (Debbie Draybi): So excited to have you with us. And also I've got Monsignor Shorer and Eddie Reich, of course, and we're going to share, all four of us in this conversation. But I wondered. I want to stop now. I wanted to give you a chance to tell us a little bit about you, what led you here into the work that you're doing.
0:02:33 - (Joe Zeidan): Yeah, look, thanks, Debbie, and thanks to the group for having me. It's a privilege to actually be here, and I'm loving everything that you guys are actually doing here because I think this is a big part of what we need to do for our community. A little bit about myself. So I'm an electrical and fire protection contractor and I do some workplace training as well. So I do a bit of both. And I've done at least ten years of recruitment, so I've seen quite a few school leavers. I've seen also some mid twenties and mid thirties and mid forties come on board wanting to make career changes.
0:03:05 - (Joe Zeidan): And in that time, while I've worked with some of these young students coming through who have left school, I've seen some of the challenges that they're facing and I've seen also the progression they're trying to make and just how some of them, and probably a large portion that are in a position where they've not made the right career choice and they're the ones that are the school leavers. And whether it's because of some of our cultural habits where we sort of encourage the young men and young women to go into trade based work, but choosing careers for them, and they'll get to their mid twenties where they'll find that they've made an incorrect choice but just can't do anything about it. And they're in a position where they just can't make changes because they're in financial commitments, they may be in a relationship, they may have a mortgage of some sort.
0:03:54 - (Joe Zeidan): And those challenges are real. They're real in that these guys are looking for a way out to be able to earn more income. And how can they do that, especially when we haven't really looked in the early stages of their time, when we haven't looked at what their gifts are? And have they chosen a career where their gifts will allow them to flourish? And in most cases, a lot of them will be joining the workforce and picking a career that they didn't even choose to or want to be involved in, because academically at school they may have been struggling and the way out of that was to go into trade.
0:04:28 - (Debbie Draybi): Thanks for sharing that. Just as you're talking, I'm just getting this picture of the work that you've done has really led you to connect with people, particularly young people who've left school or those early careers, where you see that there's a struggle, there's a tension for them around. This is not a good fit for me. I feel stuck. I don't know where to go. And so it sounds like you seeing a lot of that has led you down this path to find ways to support them and connect with them and to see maybe help them guide them in a way that perhaps they didn't get early on.
0:05:06 - (Joe Zeidan): Yeah, absolutely. And all those points you raised are exactly the situation or the predicament they're in where leaving school, especially when there's academic struggles at year eight, year nine. And that's usually about the time where the struggles sort of surface. It's usually about that time where it'll lead to a few more things, where the child is unhappy at school, whether it's a girl or boy, they'll be unhappy at school and the only way out is to put them out into the workforce.
0:05:32 - (Joe Zeidan): And usually the parents will reach out to someone they know and say, look, you know, can you find some work for my son or for my daughter? I know they're going to be safe with a friend of mine, rather than just send them out to anywhere. But not identifying what their gifts and skills are, what are their skill set? And are we encouraging them to work with somebody that is a close friend of ours, but doesn't align with their skill set?
0:05:53 - (Joe Zeidan): And so for the first three or four years, and especially if you look at trade base, that's a four year apprenticeship, so that's four years they're going to commit. So from the age of 17, at four years of 21, they're in a trade. And imagine if they're in a trade where they're unhappy and trade at TAFE, just about the passing rate is fairly high, so they will get through, and they've certainly got the knowledge and the ability, they've got the smarts, majority of them do that, they're all doing really well, but it's just they haven't been applying themselves, which is where the academics dropped off.
0:06:25 - (Joe Zeidan): And so once they're in that situation where they're working, they've got that job, but it's at 21, they then realise, well, hang on, this isn't my trade. And the solution to that then, is, don't worry, in twelve months time, we'll get your capstone. Once we've got your capstone, you can start your own business. And so we're now sort of snowballing in the wrong direction, because this child has no interest in starting their own business.
0:06:48 - (Joe Zeidan): But through family and friends, it's easier to just say, oh, we'll get you some work, it'll be okay, you can do some cash work on the weekend. And so this sort of, once the money starts coming in, puts a band aid on it. But the reality is the gifts and the skillset is still not being covered.
0:07:03 - (Debbie Draybi): So what I'm hearing, Jo, is just being able to think about sometimes the things that motivate us, particularly for, you know, listeners out there, parents who are thinking about they might be seeing their child struggling at school, and the solution is, well, perhaps getting them out of that environment and putting them on a pathway, something they know really well, they know has worked for other people. They've got family members who are really established in that trade or in that business and that sort of seeing it as a bit of a solution to one problem.
0:07:39 - (Debbie Draybi): But often it's not a good fit and it creates another problem or it transfers the problem that happened at school, the difficulties that they might have, whether it's learning difficulties or difficulties with relationships with their friends, and then putting them in an environment which is a lot less structured and bigger and sort of a lot more pressure, particularly dealing with adults and where there's a generational gap as well. So there can be a lot of things that pressures and tensions that get in the way and that can really create a path to failure rather than success.
0:08:14 - (Debbie Draybi): Even though the parents have all the intention of trying to, you know, get them on their way and to introduce them to the adult world and to a career path that might have some level of security for them.
0:08:26 - (Joe Zeidan): And you raise a valid point with that as well, because when you are working with a family friend or someone that you confide in that you feel is going to be a safe option, you're of the mindset that my child's going to be safe because I know that person. But this isn't about the safety of the workplace. It's more about the fact of the choices. And like I said, the unhappiness at work, the delusion, the level of fear for the child, whether that's a boy or girl, but that level of where they're sitting. Because when they've gone from that relaxed environment at school and not necessarily relaxed environment, but in an environment where they're cruising along and it's okay, but because they had made the choice to get out, the child then sees that I'm not failing anymore.
0:09:11 - (Joe Zeidan): My mum and dad aren't going to get upset with me anymore because I'm not failing. I'm not at school anymore. No results are going to come in. We don't have parents each at night, any night. So I'm safe. If I go to the construction site or go into the workforce or work for a family friend, they're not going to see any more results. So this is actually all right, this will work. But again, it's a band aid solution.
0:09:29 - (Joe Zeidan): And again, I guess the whole idea is to try and find the gifts and the strengths of the child. And the point I'd like to really push out is those things can be identified really easily. Like, we can find those because there's nothing worse than a young man going out working for a contractor on a construction site where potentially they can hurt themselves. Because as we've seen, and as I've seen, you know, boys out there that have never climbed a ladder, and they're the ones that they won't say they're scared to climb a ladder. Who's going to admit in front of the workforce or even in front of their workmates, that I don't know how to climb a ladder?
0:10:05 - (Joe Zeidan): And this person is expected to climb almost the top of the ladder and remain safe. But they're sweating their palms off. We're in the middle of winter, and they're sweating because they're so nervous, and it's an accident waiting to happen. So I guess they're the sort of situations, and they'll pass through. I mean, they are fearless. The young generations coming through are fearless. They'll work through that. But imagine the level of fear that this kid is carrying, thinking, I'm gonna be doing something I've never done before. I've never used a power tool before, a circular saw or a jackhammer. I've never done any of this. But the expectation is, get out there and do it. What do you think this is? This isn't the playground anymore. This is the real world.
0:10:40 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, I'd like to, you know, just invite Eddie to share some of his reflections in terms of what Jo's saying and some of the examples, whether there's something that you're seeing in your practice or you've been familiar with in the work that you do with the community.
0:10:59 - (Eddie Reaiche): First of all, Jo, I'd like to thank you for coming in today. And what you were saying made me really reflect a lot on who the decision makers are in the choice for a career. And it seems to me it's taken away from the child who's the one who's going to embark on whatever the choice is, which is pretty sad. And some of the kids that I've seen are a little bit lost because they're dealing with emotional issues, because in a job they don't like, but they're trying to do things to keep their families happy.
0:11:32 - (Eddie Reaiche): And I don't want to blame the families and say it's all your fault. But at the same time, they're only working because they're coming up with stuff that they know and they're limited with what they know, and it's only through their own experience. And so a lot of the times when the parents make this choice, it's because they think it's the right choice based on their experience. A lot of the times when that people come to me or they bring their children to me is because they've tried everything they can. They don't know what to do.
0:12:01 - (Eddie Reaiche): So then they take them to a counsellor or a psychologist or someone like that. I don't think it ever dawns upon them to take them to a career advisor or someone like that. I don't think they have that capacity because I don't believe they've been exposed to that or they've not had a positive experience with that before. I think what you're doing today is you're showing people out there that there is a choice.
0:12:25 - (Eddie Reaiche): Choice doesn't mean making that choice for the child. The choice is, how about you take it to someone who's professional, someone who knows how to deal with this and help them get to where they want to go. I'm getting really annoyed at seeing kids who take on the family business only because it seems to be what they're bred for and nothing else. And they're so. The parents are so proud, like, I've built this up, now you're going to keep it going and it gives the child no choice, no independence, and doesn't give them any self esteem because they're just doing what they're told.
0:13:02 - (Eddie Reaiche): They're at school, they're doing what they're told. They're now going into a job and they're doing what they're told, and they go home, they're doing what they're told. And I don't think that has a very big positive effect on people. So listening to what you're saying gives me a lot more hope because I'm hoping the listeners who are listening to this have hope that they can do the right thing by their children and start doing things for them, not for.
0:13:28 - (Debbie Draybi): Themselves, and just being able to. I guess what I'm hearing, this theme of family pressure, you know, for the young people to conform and to really follow the path that their parents have set up for them, you know, with the best intention, particularly if it's something that's worked for them or, you know, their need to create some level of continuity in the family, pass on, you know, from generation to generation.
0:13:54 - (Debbie Draybi): But sometimes it's not a good fit, as you said. And it creates a whole range of issues, whether they're feeling that pressure but also really quite unhappy for something. Perhaps they feel a different calling. They should be doing something else in life. And I wondered, Monsignor, as you're listening, what some of your reflections are or, you know, is this something that you're familiar with, with the families that reach out to you who may be grappling with this?
0:14:20 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah, look, what comes to mind. I have had experiences where, you know, people have had pressure from parents or family, you know, to do this, to follow, like, yeah, you got good marks. You should go into law. But no, but I'm more interested in, I want to teach or do something that hasn't got that much glory with it. Like, if you could say that, I don't know, sometimes we've heard the story of the, you know, the grandmother, proud of her three children, three grandchildren. You say, oh, who are they? Well, the first one's a lawyer, that one's a doctor. That one's going to be a politician or president or whatever, you know. Yeah. So there's that experience, expectations. So there's some that have that.
0:14:58 - (Monsignor Shora): There's also been, in my experience, where at a young age, where a person will aspire, I can think of one where they aspire to do. To do, like for going to construction. And then they became disillusioned. It wasn't what they thought, you know, so there's things in that way and where they keep going ahead. Well, they've gone, yeah, well, I've done three years. I might as well finish. And I don't know how to think of anything else. I haven't, don't know where to find or how to work out where my gifts are. There's nothing out there afterwards, you know, for a.
0:15:29 - (Monsignor Shora): There's that side. The other thing is where people are doing work and they don't recognize what the service is that they're doing. You know, I remember a young man who was in construction saying, oh, I'm getting over this. It's this. And, you know, you're doing this. And, you know, and I said, what do you build? You know, what mostly build? We mostly build homes, you know, I said, oh, right. Wow. And I said, so you build the places where a family comes and feels safe. A family comes and feels loved, where parents will bring their newborn child.
0:16:00 - (Monsignor Shora): You're building the room and the space for this to happen. And he looked at me and he thought, I've never thought about it like that.
0:16:07 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah.
0:16:07 - (Monsignor Shora): I said, you know, yeah. Like, it depends how you see your work, too. So it's a little bit too trying to sit where they can try and see in the career that they're choosing what's the service I'm providing, what's the good I'm doing through my work, that I'm doing something good? And how can I be serving, even sometimes, if it is a little bit mundane work, to see where this is helping someone, this is helping people down the track.
0:16:32 - (Monsignor Shora): They're the sort of the areas that are coming to my mind where people struggling at work, not knowing if they're in the right career choice. So that, yeah, there has been influenced by parents where they've chosen it, and they're disillusioned with what's happening, you know, and I suppose at the moment in the building industry, there's a lot of people disillusioned because there's such pressure, you know, with the economic situation, with a lot of the culture that's happening. And so there's a lot of people looking to move away from that, and then what do they move to, you know?
0:17:04 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, I was reflecting on that. Monsignor, you know, thank you for those examples around your highlighting is the importance of not only does it need to be something that they enjoy, and it's a good fit and a good match to their skills or interests, but also, particularly this generation, I think, needing a sense of purpose or meaning attached to what they do, not just doing it because that's just the family business or that's just the expectation, but just framing it in that way. That example that you gave around building homes that people live in and just being able to reframe what we do sometimes, and having that example of reaching out sometimes when you are stuck to talk to someone about what you do and reflect on what is the purpose and can you find meaning?
0:17:55 - (Debbie Draybi): What do you think about that, Jo? Is that something that you're exploring in some of your work around for those that do feel stuck?
0:18:02 - (Joe Zeidan): Yeah, the ones that are usually stuck, or from the experience that I've had with those that are usually stuck, the reason they're also stuck is for them to make a transition in a career or in their career path, some of them have to take a pay cut, and they're not in a situation to take a pay cut. So, you know, we might have someone that may be in construction, might be a concreter or maybe a bricklayer, and that person who for maybe eight to ten years of their career, has earned x amount of dollars and in an industry where it's paying well, but due to physical injuries and physically can't carry it anymore at such a young age.
0:18:35 - (Joe Zeidan): And to go into an alternate career has to take a pay cut. There's a lot of negotiations. So do you plough through the pain, whether it's back injuries or any injury you may have sustained at work, and just keep moving forward in that situation, or do you take that pay cut? Can you financially sustain that, take that pay cut and look for a career that you think this is? What. But what is that career?
0:18:58 - (Joe Zeidan): And the other one, Monsignor, you touched on it was that expectation in family business where the family will look at it and say, you know, I used to work 60, 70 hours a week to build this business, and you're not interested in it. You don't want to be a part of this business. How can this be? What have I done wrong? What haven't I given you for you to be in this business? I want you to take it over and take it to another level.
0:19:17 - (Joe Zeidan): So now we're asking the child to work 60 hours and take it to another level. What pressure is that going to put on everybody? And can that person lead that business into that situation, have that in fight in between family members and siblings, so forth? Because it's just not working out, because they were just never interested in taking that on.
0:19:37 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, looked as you were exploring both you and Monsignor, talking about the financial pressures, and that's another layer that really adds complexity, doesn't it? We're going to be having another episode on thinking about the impact of financial pressures and how that influences decisions that we make. And particularly when people are feeling stuck. And as you said, want to make a choice, want to make a change, which may mean navigating a new career, which usually means starting at the bottom again and less money.
0:20:06 - (Debbie Draybi): But also, Mons, you were mentioning the industries evolve and change. Construction has changed quite a bit. And often taking over from a family, the traditions or the ways of working, you know, led to a lot of success and accumulation of a lot of wealth, really, in a short time. You don't see that happening in the industry now. It's very different. It's changed, it's evolved. And the ways to make money and to make money really quickly are not fair in the same ways that perhaps the parents or the grandparents were able to do. So there's that source of frustration, too, because you're dealing with a whole new culture, but also a whole new financial.
0:20:45 - (Joe Zeidan): Structure and the risks are certainly higher today than they were in the past, so that adds more pressure and the.
0:20:51 - (Debbie Draybi): Competition, particularly in our community, in construction, it's something that continues to grow. And, yeah, it's a very different kind of space. So, yeah, thanks for bringing that up. We'll definitely bring that draw right into our next conversation as well around financial. But just as we think about wrapping up, I wondered whether there were some key themes that you'd like to leave for our listeners who may find themselves in that position where they're struggling, they're feeling that pressure, they're really overwhelmed by the changes and feeling quiet, stuck, you know, what's something that they can do to help them to navigate where to go for help, but also to engage a professional who can give them some good guidance and really assess their needs, but also their skills and their strengths.
0:21:39 - (Joe Zeidan): That's a very good point, and I think both you and Eddy touched on that. Where there is services available, there is professional services available. It's allowing the parents to get themselves to invest in that portion of. Of the child's future by connecting with the school to be a little bit more active in that area where you are making that appointment, to go in there and meet with the careers adviser and your child after hours.
0:22:02 - (Joe Zeidan): No pressure, there's no deadlines. But go in there and have those conversations and do it on a regular basis. Don't just feel like, you know, that the service is there for you to use. And as I said, the schools have got the best services available. It's up to us to connect with the school. They're not going to come knocking on our door saying, come and meet with us. The opportunities are there, the professional services are there.
0:22:22 - (Joe Zeidan): It's a matter of us reaching out and looking at those services and having those discussions with professional careers advisers who've got all the data. And. And they put our children through the questionnaires that are required. They give us a good ballpark figure of where our child's future and skills are, but to tap into that data and then own it and take it on board and have those conversations as family about a roadmap and where are we going to take it. And those signs will come in early, because as soon as the academic results drop off at the age of 1415, they're the signs that are saying, it's not because I'm struggling, I need some direction. And it's not about the parenting, but it's about providing the support and that comfort that the child feels safe to talk to their parent because there'd be nothing worse than your child not being able to talk to you when they need to. And it's usually at that age where they're shifting from that age of 1415 to a point where I need to have this conversation with you.
0:23:18 - (Joe Zeidan): You're the person that I feel safe around. But if you're not going to make time to listen to me and understand what I'm going through, then who do I turn to? So we'll just keep going. If we don't, there is certainly opportunities in early stages. Let's not wait till we're in our mid twenties to realize that we've made a decision that we could have addressed a few years ago and unravel all of that. And there is a lot of services that are also free that are available outside of school.
0:23:42 - (Joe Zeidan): There's nothing wrong with a second opinion from a careers adviser. There's nothing wrong with a third opinion. Go and get as many as you like and sit there and analyze the data. We just need truth and transparency. We just need the child to be honest and answer all those questions honestly and someone that explains them and says, okay, let's go through this questionnaire of 80 questions and get some data at the end of this and let's look at where we go.
0:24:02 - (Joe Zeidan): Let's check in on that once a month and say, okay, young Maddie, young Alex, whoever it may be, let's sit down, let's just go through this every month and say, okay, where are we at? Do we want to stay at school? Are we going to leave school? Are we going to look for a job? Where are we going to go? And looking at that, rather than hoping that, ok, look, just stay to year twelve and we'll see what happens.
0:24:22 - (Joe Zeidan): Nothing's going to happen because we're having these conversations in year nine, year ten, it's going to snowball and we need to be able to address it early and say, ok, let's monitor it. And probably key is the balance is trying to get that balance.
0:24:35 - (Debbie Draybi): Thanks, Jo. Look, what I'm hearing is the importance of, particularly for parents not to navigate this on their own and not to go with the safe option of let's get them out and put them on the family business or with the cousin business or relatives because it creates a whole lot of pressure. Whilst it might feel like it's a safe solution, it's an obvious solution, it might not be the right one. So being able to take a step back and not rush into these decisions and get help like we do with whenever we feel stuck or we have any other complex issues, we get help from professionals and we get some guidance.
0:25:09 - (Debbie Draybi): Eddy, any sort of tips as we wrap up that you think would be useful from what you're seeing in your practice, anything you'd like our listeners to hear?
0:25:18 - (Eddie Reaiche): There's a lot of services out there that are available. Just as you would take your child if they were sick, to a doctor, or you would take your child who's got some challenges mentally, to a psychologist or a counsellor, you're talking about your child's future. And this is something that can be ongoing for the rest of their life. At least give them the opportunity to be the best that they can be.
0:25:42 - (Eddie Reaiche): And if you really believe in that, then take a to somebody who can put them on the right track. We don't know everything as parents, and I'm a parent myself, and we don't always know what's best for our child. The best that we can do is think about what's best for ourselves. And that's about as far as we go. The rest is just a myth. So I think what's a good idea is everyone loves their kids and I believe that. And if you really want the best, then take them to where they can actually be the best that they can be.
0:26:13 - (Debbie Draybi): And, you know, as a parent, as I hear you say that, I feel a relief that we're not always going to make the right decisions and we don't always know everything. So to the parents out there listening, give yourself permission to not know everything and to get some guidance and support by professionals who do this all the time and give yourself that freedom to be guided rather than to always have the solution.
0:26:36 - (Debbie Draybi): And Monsignor, any parting words, you know, as we wrap up this session, so.
0:26:40 - (Monsignor Shora): I hear in all of those, that's very good advice because for parents, sometimes you're very close to your child emotionally. So like in your worry. So sometimes consulting with that outside person just gives it that little bit of distance just to calm your worry or your fear or sometimes your panic. And that way you can be come across to your child then in a way being able, listening, accompanying and advising rather than they're there feeling your pressure and your fear and that they have to take that on. So, yes, I think that's been great sharing here today that I think will be very helpful for that for our listeners.
0:27:17 - (Debbie Draybi): Well, thank you all. Jo, thanks for joining us. And look, you're not off the hook. We're going to ask you to come back for another session. This is a three part series and we'd really like to explore more around some of those family pressures and dynamics and the impact that that has on self esteem and identity. So for our listeners, gentle reminder, if this really resonates for you and it's something you're grappling with, with thinking about your career choices and really questioning where you're at, we're going to put some links in the show notes around referrals and options of people to contact and to get help in this space.
0:27:58 - (Debbie Draybi): I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website, hshl.org dot au dot. If you have any thoughts, comments or ids, please leave us a comment on Spotify. Alternatively, send us an email@adminshl.org
0:28:28 - (Debbie Draybi): dot au dot. You and your mental health matter matters to us, and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary. Bye for now.
