Join us for part two of our interview with Bron Lowe, as we talk toxic relationships, narcissistic abuse, and the toll this takes on mental health.
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health, abusive relationships, or if this episode is triggering for you, reach out to the following organisations:
Read the transcript here:
https://enabled.buzzsprout.com/2191914/12942395-episode-3-toxic-relationships
Transcripts available for each episode on the website: https://enabled.buzzsprout.com
Let us know what you think!
Get in touch with us through Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/EnabledPodcast/
Or email us on:
podcast@advocators.com.au
This episode is brought to you by Ability Advocators:
https://www.advocators.com.au/
(02)65 824 946
Join us for part two of our interview with Bron Lowe, as we talk toxic relationships, narcissistic abuse, and the toll this takes on mental health.
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health, abusive relationships, or if this episode is triggering for you, reach out to the following organisations:
Read the transcript here:
https://enabled.buzzsprout.com/2191914/12942395-episode-3-toxic-relationships
Transcripts available for each episode on the website: https://enabled.buzzsprout.com
Let us know what you think!
Get in touch with us through Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/EnabledPodcast/
Or email us on:
podcast@advocators.com.au
This episode is brought to you by Ability Advocators:
https://www.advocators.com.au/
(02)65 824 946
Episode 3: Toxic relationships
Colin: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Enabled, the podcast where we talk about normalize and celebrate disability and mental health. You are listening to part two of our episode with Bronny, our fearless leader at Ability Advocators. Last episode, we spoke about Bron's background, including having to deal with sexism in the workplace. As well as single parenting. Today we are zeroing in on Bron's biggest mental health struggle to date. Stay tuned for part two starting now.
Kirsty: Well, we, we spoke briefly the other day about your personal mental health journey and about a time in your life that was the most challenging for you mental health wise and it was really surprising to me because I just assumed that that would have been centered around the separation from the father of your first child and that single parenting journey, [00:01:00] because that's, that stuff is hard. But it wasn't. It was not that. And before, I'll just do a tiny disclaimer for the purposes of the podcast. I'll just let people know that we are, we are gonna talk about this, but we're gonna do it in a way that sort of de-identifies people in situations a little bit because we're not about naming and shaming, right? We don't want to wade into call out culture or anything like that. So we want to sort of try and tread that line between authentic conversations and you know, not waiting into that toxic sort of cancel culture. So by necessity, some of these details might be a bit vague, but. With that in mind?
Bron: Yes.
Kirsty: What was, tell us about that time that was the hardest for you, for your mental health.
Bron: So the hardest, I think, time that I've been through personally was a journey even though I was married and had family and actually quite a lot of support around me, I felt very, very alone. And it was all because of [00:02:00] my a relationship with another person that made me question myself entirely. And. It, it it, yeah, I guess it floored me entirely. I'd never called myself to question in that way, perhaps, I don't know. But it was a person with a personality disorder. I would say leaning towards narcissistic. Personality disorder. So and I, I did a lot of research on this because I was trying to work out what the hell was going on. And so you do a lot of research and you try and work that out.
Kirsty: They actually say that that's one of the- in terms of how do you know that you might be in a relationship with a narcissist or in an emotionally abusive relationship? And one thing that I've heard people say is when you find yourself in the middle of the night googling like, what is happening? Because it's so foreign to you and you are so confused. [00:03:00] That can be, that can be a sign that you are in an emotionally abusive relationship.
Bron: Yeah. Yeah, I guess the, and even the tricky side of that is too, that a very intelligent and skilled person with a personality disorder knows those signs and symptoms and flips them onto that other person. So they play the victim. When they're trying to, yeah. So it's, it's, it's a tough one. Probably the toughest. Mental mess in a, in a relationship that can be, I just can't yeah. Explain enough. And this is part of the problem. You cannot explain to other people, your family, your friends, that you can't explain what's going on because it's so foreign to your thinking.
It's tiny, little teeny things that on their own don't make. So what, so when you try to communicate them, people will just look at you like, well, Yeah, that's not a big deal. You're being [00:04:00] a little bit precious, right. But yeah, it's not until you've fully experienced it to the nth degree, it really messes with your brain.
Kirsty: And so did you, while that was happening to you, did you. Did you talk to anybody about that experience while it was happening? Or, or even after? And what was that experience like for you of sharing it with people? How, how did you feel?
Bron: No, I couldn't. I, I think I tried, but like I said, I could hear myself talking and it made no sense anyway.
Yeah. So how could I, it didn't make sense to me. How could it make sense to the person I'm trying to talk to? So that's why I think I felt so alone, because I was not alone. I have awesome you know, Support around me. But you are alone because you are alone in your head with this, with the mess that this other person's put inside your head, and it's all up in the head. So what can you do with that?
Kirsty: Yeah. I think that's such an interesting point and probably so relatable for anyone who's [00:05:00] listening who has found themself in this sort of emotionally abusive situation. I think that's a key thing that people would relate to is feeling... almost feeling ridiculous when you hear yourself speak about it.
When you hear the things coming out of your mouth and try when, when you find it so hard to explain what it is that they're doing wrong, because as you said, It's , it's subtle, it's insidious, really, but the compounding effect of all of those things on you
Bron: And the emotional mess, the emotional, it's like a whirlwind. And you are generating these emotional. And you don't even know why, why am I feeling this way? I, it's not making sense. Yeah. So it's, it's, oh, it's awful.
Kirsty: And also those mind games of, if you hear sort of psychologists talk about this, this sort of personality type, I guess, or these kind of toxic relationships, they use an acronym called DARVO.
D A R V O, which stands for deny attack, reverse victim and [00:06:00] offender. And so, and that's the strategy that they use. If you do feel like you can say it to them, try and confront them and say, Hey, this is happening and it's not okay. They deny they attack you and they try to reverse that status of, I'm not the offender, you are doing this to me, I am a victim. What impact does that have on you when, when something like that happens? When people. I mean, is it gaslighting? Is that, did that happen to you?
Bron: Yeah. In a sense that happened. It was certainly wasn't an intimate relationship, so therefore there wasn't that level of emotional toying. Fortunately, but it still definitely messed with my head. Yeah, I definitely think it would be a lot harder for those that are, are romantically, I guess entwined because that's a whole another level of emotional twisting.
Kirsty: How important is it, do you think, When you do talk to somebody about this sort of thing, how [00:07:00] important do you think it is to be believed?
Bron: Oh, it's, oh, it's so everything because you just, as I said, feel so alone. Because. You are not even making sense to yourself. How can you expect somebody else to believe you and they can't, and you can't even articulate the feelings and the emotions and the stress and the, it's so illogical as well. But I must say again, once you've been through it, you can identify it. As well. And I think that, and I have since, you know, had relatives and friends that I've been able to identify and therefore I can firm up against it. Immediately. So I can step away without feeling guilt because guilt's a great, a great emotion and it's what keeps you in that cycle.
Kirsty: Yeah. . It's interesting because I spend a lot of time and [00:08:00] energy trying to teach my children about, you know, how to be safe and body boundaries and safe and unsafe people and, and behavior and that sort of thing. And we have a couple of books that I sort of read to them on rotation. And one thing that each of these books have in common is that children should have a safety network of three to five adults who they trust and that they can speak to if something happens. And one of the books identifies what qualifies a person to be on a child's safety network. And it is that this is a person to whom this child could say anything to, and that adult is going to believe them.
And that really struck me. How important. Being believed is to our safety. Yeah. Especially our emotional, psychological safety. And I think often in these sorts of relationships, these sorts of people, toxic people, will make you try to try to make you think that you're overreacting. Or you are crazy. Or you are irrational . Or you are the problem. [00:09:00] And that just, it keeps you stuck. You're trapped if no one will,
Bron: And they will go out of their way to make sure other people in, in your circle. Think that you are the, the nut too. Yes. So you are stuck. You are alone, you are not believed. It's, yeah, it can be really, really devastating.
Kirsty: How long, when this was happening to you, how long did it take you to realize this is a really unhealthy situation for me and I need to get out of this?
Bron: I had other issues that I guess forced the end of that relationship. My back issues. So I sort of, yeah, I was in chronic pain and that's it. I was bedridden, so I kind of went underground for the next six months.
So that was kind of the end of that relationship. But I guess. I had been researching for the previous six months. The whole relationship was only about 18 months long. There was some, some long-term things that happened [00:10:00] afterwards that were really devastating, and that was that this person had deliberately sabotaged my life in a really big way.
But in a way that that person would never have even known the outcome. They wouldn't have benefited. And they literally sabotaged my life and for no reason. Yeah. Just because they could. Yeah. And it was, that was what was mindblowingly my devastation, I think. How could a person do that? Yeah.
Kirsty: What was, did, did this have an impact on your health, do you think? What was the long-term impact? You said it was an 18 month relationship. Was there a long-term impact on your physical health? Emotional health? Health?
Bron: Well, I, don't know if you could correlate that, because I had the back injury. And so wa was that part of the, the slowness of my recovery? I don't know.
You could argue that it would've paid a factor. I certainly [00:11:00] came out. With no confidence. I had, I was a person of strong confidence and, and, you know, on paper lots of accomplishments and lots of experience and blah, blah, blah. And I had no confidence. I felt like a little child again. Yeah, absolutely floored me.
Kirsty: What was your self worth at that point? H How's your self-esteem af at the end of this colon? You're shaking your head. What did, did you, could you see this sort of gradual dissent into
Colin: I could, you could certainly see that it was affecting just the way that she perceived herself. Certainly. Yeah.
Kirsty: Which, I mean, that's fundamental to our mental health, isn't it? How we think about ourselves, how we- how we feel about ourselves.
Bron: Yeah. Yeah.
Kirsty: How did you feel about yourself at the end of it?
Bron: Well, I felt completely incompetent because, and, and of course remembering that I was the, the breadwinner [00:12:00] Colin had done the, you know, the, the parenting role or the home dad or whatever.
So I was the bread winner, the primary bread winner, and now I was, Totally incompetent of doing that. I couldn't do that. So I was complete and utter failure. Not to me. It wasn't me. I was so concerned about, I have devastated my family. I have failed it to provide. Yeah. Yeah. I just failed.
Kirsty: Do you feel like the impact of this relationship on you was any less significant because there wasn't a physical threat, nobody hit you, do you feel like
Bron: No, it, it would've been a lot easier and see you know, if somebody'd smack you in the face, and I've been punched in the face for stepping in between a, a man hitting a woman, which was a bad move, but he floored me and it was fine because, you know, what was I doing, you idiot, what was I gonna do?
Okay. But it's over. Pain is, yeah. You know, it's like childbirth. It bloody hurts, but it's over. Uhhuh
Kirsty: Uhhuh, Dr. Ramani, [00:13:00] who's a, a resource that you put me onto in the lead up to this episode, she said that, so she is a, a clinical psychologist and a leading expert on narcissism and narcissistic abuse. And she says that emotional trauma needs to be given the same level of seriousness as physical abuse because it has the same level of post-traumatic deficits in functioning. What would you say to that?
Bron: Oh, look, I, I've never been physically abused, so I would not try to weigh one up against the other. I would definitely say that messing with your head is just so undefinable that that's what, that's kind of half the problem, you know, a, a punch in the face. It's at least it's there, it's done. It's, but, oh, the mess with the brain. You can't see a recovery when you're in that mess. You can't see clarity when you're in a cloud. Do you think, Colin, do you think it's taken as seriously emotional abuse as [00:14:00] physical abuse?
Colin: Probably not. No. Because you always hear about, you hear about domestic violence, it's always about somebody punching someone or pushing them on their scars or bruises or whatever. But yeah, I suppose not. But then, yeah, it probably is becoming more, more something that people talk about with PTSD and things like that. So yeah, it's probably starting to equal out.
Kirsty: Yeah, I feel like it's certainly increasing. I mean, you, you hear a lot more these days about like gaslighting for example, was the word of the year in 2022.
Bron: Really? Okay. Wow. Wow.
Kirsty: People are talking about this sort of thing. More and narcissism is, is something that's more sort of widely understood and you know, coercive control is being legislated against and these are really great things, but I feel like. They're only, not only, but one of the key reasons why they're being treated with [00:15:00] concern or seriousness is that people are identifying that these can be almost like gateways to physical abuse.
So if there's emotional trauma or psychological abuse that can lead up to physical harm. And was that in any way wanting to discount how serious physical abuse is? I feel like we do need to recognize that emotional abuse is inherently an independently devastating. I mean, Dr. Ramani, the post-traumatic deficits in functioning are the same. For physical abuse versus, emotional abuse.
Bron: Yeah. Look, that makes complete sense, I think because. Yeah, it's, as I said, it's in the mind. And then also as well, what you're battling against is culture. So you know, physically, okay, if you've got a black eye, you know, and your husband's beating you or your [00:16:00] wife's beating you, whatever you. People can see and feel bad for you and stuff like that. But actually in our society, we are still not a hundred percent accepting of you know, emotional damage. Yeah. And so therefore you are fighting cultural boundaries as well. Yeah. I can't see any, I know myself, I'm in chronic pain and the amount of times that I need to remind people actually.
I can't sit there because I'm in pain. Right. Because they can't see it. They go, oh, is it that bad? Well, that's chronic pain, right? And I've been telling you for five years, but they can't see it, so they forget.
Kirsty: And if you haven't experienced it you just have no concept.
Bron: That's right. Absolutely none. And I'm not gonna whinge the whole time because I'm sick of hearing myself. So, yeah. It's the invisibility that can make it even harder.
Kirsty: So after you did, or, [00:17:00] or even while this was happening to you, you went on that investigative journey that you talked about to try and figure out what is going on. Can you tell us about some of the resources that you came across? We've talked to, I mean, Dr. Ramani was one.
Bron: Yes. Yes. And I think it was really helpful to find things on YouTube and things that identified some of the behaviors and the, the tricks I suppose, that these toxic relationships can use. One of the books that I did really enjoy was, David Gillespie's, taming toxic people. Because I thought, you know, in this world, if this is before I sort of left that situation, I need to have some sort of control over what I'm doing and what I'm allowing into my brain. How do I control these toxic relationships? So that was really good.
Kirsty: Yeah. And that book, he actually, he actually refers to these sorts of people as psychopaths.
Bron: Right.
Kirsty: Which I found deeply [00:18:00] uncomfortable.
Bron: Yes. Yes.
Kirsty: When I was, because we think of psychopaths as, you know, the serial killer. Yep. The person who's inherently dangerous to our physical safety, you know? But then I thought it was so key, he, because he explained in the book, this is why I am deliberately choosing this word. And there were two reasons. One was he wanted to highlight. The lack of empathy, which people like this have. I felt like that was so insightful to what's going on behind the scenes. At one point, he says people. People like this. They don't care about your feelings any more than you care about the feelings of your hair follicles after you've had a haircut, right?
Bron: Nice.
Kirsty: The fact that somebody effectively doesn't have the capacity to understand or appreciate the pain or damage that they're causing, does that make it better or worse, do you think, to have that knowledge of it?
Bron: Yeah, it's a, it's a really tough one, and I think that's why it's so mind bending because we who have empathy for other people can't wrap our head [00:19:00] around the fact that they can't have any, like, none. Like really we can't. It's like it's just beyond the edge of our brain and we can't really quite grasp it.
Kirsty: Yeah. I feel like in some ways it's almost like a freeing revelation because. It gives you permission to sort of stand back from that cycle. And not expend so much energy trying to appeal to that person's better nature. Trying to explain to them, look at the impact of what you are doing. Look at the, the real damage that you're causing. They can't under, they, they can't, it cannot impact them. They cannot have that understanding of it. So it almost gives you permission to step out of that emotional spiral they have you in.
Bron: Yeah. Actually that's, that's a really positive way to look at it because yes, people do get stuck in that wanting to explain and, and. More so to get them to take responsibility. Yeah. But being freed from that look, they're not gonna, yeah. You're wasting your time. You're banging your head against a brick wall.
Kirsty: Exactly. And [00:20:00] the second reason that he says he's using that term deliberately is to highlight how dangerous people like this are to your wellbeing, you know, which is really important and not super recognized in society. Is there anything that you've found particularly helpful or beneficial about the book?
Bron: Oh, it's actually several years since I've read it, so but I do remember that him explaining that terminology about a psychopath. And I think that it's helpful for us to use a language that's appropriate even if it's shocking, so that people will be, paying more attention to it because I think that it's disarming the toxic person, their little tools and their tricks, the, the gaslighting, that sort of thing. It's getting known. And it's disarming them.
Kirsty: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. What have you done to safeguard yourself from being in a situation like this again?
Bron: I've actually cut off relationships, even relatives. Or, you know, long term or [00:21:00] you know, whatever they may be, I have cut them off without guilt and that, that was a huge thing for me. And I still get backlash from that. But I am, I am very confident that that is the right choice.
Kirsty: Yeah. And that's because in this book, taming Toxic People, he does have some guidelines on how to manage people in your life who are this way. And his main thing is if you can get out. Get out. Cut them off completely which is very telling in terms of there's no capacity to change. There is no. There is no remedying this situation.
Bron: Yeah. There is no solution.
Kirsty: Yeah. Which is tough to accept.
Bron: Yes. Very tough. It's like being in quicksand, but surely, surely if I could just grab a branch, right, I would be able to drag myself out. But if there is literally no branches around, it's hard to accept that you're just gonna have to stand there and. Yeah. Die or, [00:22:00] or run away completely, I dunno. Yeah.
Kirsty: Do you think, what do you think are, I'll ask this to both of you. What do you think are maybe some warning signs or some red flags that if people experience this in another person, that's something for them to, you know, get a bit careful about and really assess that person or that relationship?
Bron: For me. I guess for me, when a person comes to me and says, look, look, I want to get your thoughts on this. This is what happened, and this is what I said, and this is what he did, and then this is what I did. And then, and that, what do you think? That's weird. Like when they start to question their own sanity and rationality in, in circumstances, and that to me is, is kind of one of the warning signs.
Kirsty: Yeah. And I think we, you spoke about. A reduction in confidence and your self-esteem listen. I, I think if you're in a relationship with anyone, whether that's at home, at work, intimate relationship, friends, family, coworkers anybody who over time [00:23:00] is changing the way that you feel about yourself for the worse. Reducing your self-esteem. That's, that's a toxic relationship for you.
Bron: Yeah. Yeah. And you usually tend to be fairly quick on those emotions. You can, we just tend to ignore them culturally. We accept that we should be nicer to everybody and that we should, you know, give everybody the benefit of the doubt. So we will sometimes suppress those feelings that we know, oh, I feel I don't like this person, but we just keep going.
Colin: And that's my problem to a degree because I probably give everyone the benefit of the doubt and think they're just having a bad day or whatever. It takes me a lot longer to. Understand.
Bron: And this is what makes it so hard because I would agree, Colin always wants to see the best in people, and that is a beautiful thing. Right? Right. Do we really want to undo that? Yeah. We don't really, [00:24:00] but we, we have to somewhere along the line, draw a line and say, okay, yes, let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Until we get to this second marker or something. And then you know what, start to back off or something.
Kirsty: Yeah, yeah. Would you say that you have also had experiences of these sorts of people in your life that-
Colin: Oh, definitely. But at the time, I wouldn't have known. Probably not, yeah.
Kirsty: But you can look back and see retrospectively, the damage and the impact and the unhealthy sort of pattern,
Colin: that partic-. Yeah. Yeah.
Kirsty: Yeah, if you could go back and completely avoid having this experience, would you?
Bron: Oh, absolutely not. No. No, not at all. Because if I can empower one person by letting them know that I understand what that mess is, then.
You know, I think that's so [00:25:00] valuable. Yeah. And it, it's, it's changed me as a person. It's broadened my mind in a whole other realm that I probably wouldn't have gone down. And it, yeah, it certainly brought me to my knees. And once you are down on your knees, the only way is up. So, yeah.
Kirsty: Yeah. Great. Colin? Anything to add?
Colin: I'm just amazed that I got to sit here and listening to two amazing people. I had nothing to say.
Bron: Shucks
Colin: No, it's just incredible.
Kirsty: Well, thanks Colin.
Colin: There you go.
Kirsty: It's kind of you to say, all right, well,
Bron: You get a pay rise.
Kirsty: Hey.
Bron: Kirsty, Kirsty, you get a pay rise.
Kirsty: Yes. Well look, I mean, hopefully this has been validating for some even one person or a couple of people who, who are listening and if you are experiencing any kind of abuse, if, if this has triggered anything for you or have any concerns, can we encourage you to talk to somebody about it?
We are not [00:26:00] mental health experts. We are just trying to generate a conversation about mental health, but there are people, there are things that you can do and people that you can talk to. In Australia, we have a national abuse counseling hotline, which is one eight hundred seven three seven seven three two. You can call Lifeline 13 11 14 speak to a friend, speak to a doctor. Don't stop until you find someone who believes you.
Bron: Amen. Sister.
Kirsty: Well, and we'll also link, we might, once we figure out how to do show notes. Which we're working on. Right. We can link to some resources that we've spoken about in the show notes as well. So
Bron: Yeah, so we do have resources on our website at Advocators.com.au.
Kirsty: Perfect. All right. Well,
Colin: There you go.
Kirsty: Thanks for listening to another episode of Enabled
Colin: Enabled.
Kirsty: See you next time.
Bron: Woo-hoo.
Colin: Bye-bye.