#18 Talking about suicide and asking for help - Kelly Saidey and Di Lannister from Lifeline Mid North Coast

What would you do if you lost your child in a crowded, public place? Would you immediately make a scene and ask for help from the people around you? Or is your impulse to try to find them yourself, and avoid asking for help?

In this episode with Di Bannister (Lifeline Trainer extraordinaire) and Kelly Saidey (Suicide Prevention and Postvention Manager) we talk about why asking for help is so hard, including the lack of modeling to children of how to ask for help, as well as the subtle penalties that society imposes if we do ask for help. 

We also talk suicide, which can feel like a scary thing to talk about. We discuss how to talk about suicide safely, and whether or not talking to people about suicide increases suicidal thoughts.

Learn more about the suicide support groups - the first in Australia - that are being run by Lifeline Mid Coast, and the benefits that participants are experiencing, including finding their tribe. 

Transcripts available for each episode on the website: https://enabled.buzzsprout.com

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Transcript

Kirsty: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Enabled, the podcast where we talk about, normalise and celebrate disability and mental health. We've got some big guns in the studio with us today, Colin. 

Colin: I'm not talking to you. 

Kirsty: Why? 

Colin: You just dissed me right from the start. 

Kirsty: Come on. That's what we do. That's our thing. 

Colin: It might be for you.

Kirsty: Aw. 

Colin: I have feelings. 

Kirsty: Well. Here's the place to talk about them, I suppose. Let's, let's dig into that, because today we have two legends of the Mid North Coast Lifeline. We have Kelly Saidey and Di Bannister, not to be confused with Lannister from Game of Thrones, which is who I had you pegged as previously.

How are you guys? Welcome. 

Di: Oh, really good. Thank you. 

Kirsty: Awesome. 

Kelly: Thanks for having us. 

Kirsty: No worries. So, Kelly, you are the Mid Coast Suicide Prevention and Postvention Manager. Postvention is a very interesting aspect of that title that I want to get into in a little minute. [00:01:00] And, Di, you are one of Lifeline's trainers.

Di: Mm hmm. 

Kirsty: Before I met you, you were described to me by a very seasoned professional in the field as the best trainer he's ever had 

Di: Ever? 

Kirsty: Ever. That's big. 

Kelly: That's very true. 

Kirsty: Strong accolade. So very high praise. So I'm excited. We're very excited to have you on the show. We love what Lifeline is all about.

And today we're talking about asking for help. Which kind of seems, it's almost a little anticlimactic sometimes to me. It doesn't seem like that big a deal. But I keep coming back to something that I heard earlier in the year. It's probably the best parenting advice I've ever heard. And it was basically about what to do if you lose your child in a public space.

You might have heard of it. It was called the looking loudly method. And so, effectively what the advice is, is if you are in that horrifying scenario where you're in a public space, you're at the shops, you're at a festival, wherever, and you lose your child, don't search for them quietly.

[00:02:00] Immediately start looking for them loudly and do it in a way that engages other people to help you. So what that might look like, you might immediately start yelling. I'm looking for a four year old boy. His name is Ben. He has brown hair, red shirt, black shorts, white shoes. And you continue yelling that as you're searching.

And then all of a sudden, everybody within hearing distance of you is suddenly helping you. You are covering more space. You've got more eyes, and, God forbid you are in that nightmare scenario where someone is trying to abduct your child, suddenly there's a lot of eyes. There's a lot of people looking for this kid. They are more likely to just drop them and leave. 

And when I heard that advice. I was really struck by two things. First of all, how painfully obvious it seems. After you've heard it, you think, well, of course. But it's also just incredibly counterintuitive because I've seen people lose their child. 

Di: Yes. 

Kirsty: And you see them silently retracing their steps, [00:03:00] checking this aisle, checking that aisle, and maybe as panic starts to build, they might start yelling. But they're still looking alone.

Di: Yes. 

Kirsty: I have never seen anybody ask for help. And this is like the moment of moments when you want your child back at any cost. And somehow, our default setting of just not wanting to ask for help overrides us, even in that essential moment. What's going on? Why is it so hard to ask for help? 

Kelly: We weren't actually taught to ask for help when we were kids.

We were taught to put our hand up and ask to go to the toilet. But in an environment, we weren't actually taught to put our hand up and say, ask for help when we weren't feeling so good or I feel a bit strange or I'm nervous about this. We weren't taught that. 

Di: We weren't taught it. And in fact, we were taught the opposite.

Don't make a scene. It's probably nothing. It's all right. We'll find him, you know, blah, blah, blah. With your most precious thing in the whole world. Wow, that is a big insight [00:04:00] into how hard it is to ask for help. 

Kirsty: And I think that when you said not making a scene, I feel like for me, that's probably my default setting is, I don't want to draw attention to the situation.

It's considered impolite to make a scene, isn't it? 

Di: Impolite and also -  Think of t shirts that you've seen recently. Like I go to Bali and I see them there. Suck it up. Build a bridge. Take some concrete. You know, you laugh when you see them and I have laughed and thought, you know, Oh, but really there's a message in that that our community actually embraces.

We make t shirts with them. So subliminally we're being told That asking for help is what? Weak? 

Kelly: Shame and guilt come a lot into it as well. So imagine that mum looking for her child. Her first initial thoughts, I've stuffed up. I took my eyes off them for one nanosecond and lost them.

So I'm a bad mum. So if I ask for help, that's going [00:05:00] to expose me. As to people say, why, why did you lose your child? Or I have to tell my husband about this. Right. So the guilt and the shame comes in first before asking for help. 

Di Yeah. And the other thing was, at what cost? Societally, if we ask for help, are we seen to be less than?

Is our job at risk? Even somebody brought up insurance and said, if I ask for help and it's on my medical record, That I've had help for mental health issues. 

Does that affect my insurance? It was a good conversation to have - what might we lose by asking for help. But it is a better conversation to have is what can we gain by being better at asking for help.

Kirsty: That's so interesting though, that idea that even at a structural level, we live in a society that penalises asking for help. I mean, it's that endemic, it's that ingrained from a position of, I mean, you said before Kelly that [00:06:00] we're not taught how to ask for help. Does it start with seeing dad muddle through like refusing to ask for directions and I don't care how long it takes us to get there, I'm going to get there myself.

Or mum, this is a very terrible sort of archetypes of, you know, masculine and feminine roles. I apologise, but you know, mum in the kitchen just doing it all herself because it's easier than trying to get someone in. 

Kelly: With children, we're not even getting modelling of asking for help. 

Kirsty: I know, for example, in my own life, I need to construct a trampoline for my children and I can't do that myself.

And I've even had friends say to me, Don't do it yourself. Let us know. We'll send our husbands. Like, they will come and help you. So I've been given permission. 

Colin: Why the husband? 

Kirsty: Oh, I thought you were about to volunteer. 

Colin: I'll volunteer. I'll come around and put the trampoline up.

Di: Even though she dissed you earlier. 

Colin: I know. 

Di: That's amazing. Very well done. 

Kirsty: It's a strong bond. 

Kelly: And I think what a lot of people think is, I'm not going to ask for help because others need it before me. Like, I'll [00:07:00] get through this. It's just, you know, I'll be fine on my own. I don't want to clog up the service, or it's not bad enough for this.

Yeah, so that prevents a lot of people reaching out. 

Kirsty: That's another one that we hear a lot. There's always somebody who is worse off, you know, I'm not, I'm doing okay. But again, it goes back in a way to that idea that as a society, we think that we value that tough exterior, that tough get on and do it.

Why don't we value the idea that people can ask and be vulnerable when it’s appropriate?

Kirsty: I've read a couple of studies that talked about common barriers to that sort of help seeking behaviour. And that was a big one that I found really interesting was that people will continuously alter their definition of what is the normal threshold of stress.

As life gets harder and harder, they will continuously move that barometer to go, no, no, no, I'm still in that normal spot. I still don't need help. I still don't need help. I had to think about that for a while because we talk about on this program [00:08:00] about the importance of normalisation of things like mental health and wanting to reduce stigma.

I thought, well, is that having some sort of negative effects where people are normalising, you know, everybody feels this way sometimes, so I should be fine. But I think the problem comes when normalisation crosses the line into minimisation. Why do we need to measure and relativise our distress against somebody else's for it to be valid?

I also saw this interview with this Lifeline telephone volunteer and he talked about the different calls that they might get in a shift. And obviously a lot of the calls might be people on the brink, people who are really just in the depths of despair. But this one was he received a call from an elderly gentleman who'd lost his wife and he was trying to prepare dinner for himself and he realised, I don't know how to boil rice.

And so he called Lifeline to say, you know, I'm all on my own now, I'm trying to do things that I've never done before, can you help me figure out how to boil rice? [00:09:00] And I just thought that was so lovely. How important are those sort of early intervention moments? 

Di: And that's one of the key things that Lifeline really would love the message to get out there.

Early intervention creates long term better results. Why do we want people to ring Lifeline early? Because that man was struggling right then. Had he have left it, it would have been beyond boiling the rice. It would have been to, I don't even know if I want to get up in the morning. But to reach out and find out how to boil rice, he had human connection.

He learned something. I'm sure, I hope the person was able to support that and. He would have gotten a real human result from being that connected to another human being. And Lifeline was, really, instigated for suicide prevention. 

Kirsty: I'll be honest, it feels scary to talk about suicide on a program like this or generally. I think the [00:10:00] community, you still hear, suicide is sort of spoken about in those hushed whispers. Should it be scary to talk about suicide?

Kelly: I want to say no, but it is a scary subject. We're talking about life or death. Part of what we want to do with Lifeline and getting the message out there is to reduce that shame and stigma around suicide. What all the research shows is that talking about suicide does not increase suicidal thoughts. So the more that we do normalise the word and the topic, then people will reach out for help. Or accept help. It's when it's hidden and not talked about and swept under the carpet. People's crisis and mental health builds up. Builds up, builds up. Till they get to that crisis point where they do take their lives. 

So we are wanting to get the conversations in there earlier. So that way they have access to services with that suicide prevention at a lower level. Like ringing up about the boiling rice. And that's what Lifeline is about, it's not measuring the asking for help, it's meeting people where they're at when they call and listening to what's happening for them right there at that moment in time.

Di: Human to human contact where there's non judgement, where there's unconditional positive regard, those things translate to more, don't they? 

Kirsty: That's everything. 

And another way that you guys really offer that, which is a less known about way, but that locally, I think you guys are just knocking it out of the park with, is the support groups that you run.

Can you tell us, Kelly, about those? 

Kelly: Yeah, so we've got different support groups. We've got the Eclipse group, that's for people that have attempted suicide. And that's an eight week psychosocial, psychoeducational support group, where there's a curriculum where we've got different subjects each week.

So it's a closed group, people start at week one and they end at week eight together. So that's for [00:12:00] anyone that has survived a suicide attempt or several suicide attempts. Then we've got our bereavement support group, and that's an open group for people that have lost a loved one to suicide, and that's where we have different topics each month and talk about the question of why, what could I have done?

The shame and guilt that the family have and unpacking some of that. We've also got a program for people that are just leaving the hospital after a suicide attempt. And that's a peer led program where we offer psychosocial support for people leaving the hospital system. So that's helping them go to appointments, advocating through the hospital system, linking them into local services, etc.

Uh, led by a peer worker that has survived a suicide attempt as well. So all of our programs are led by myself and we've just put on another group facilitator program coordinator, the same as me. And then we've got co facilitators and all the co facilitators have lived experience of suicide. So they've either had a suicide attempt themselves or [00:13:00] they've lost a loved one to suicide.

And that lived experience just really gets that connection and they've got their own language that they speak through their own wisdom. And that's where you see in the groups a lot of people get that connection with that lived experience and you can see them start to breathe again. Like they come in full of anxiety and full of all the troubles that's in their lives and then once they hear another one's story, that sort of alleviates their distress a lot.

I think once the distress goes down, then you actually see them asking for help more. So we've actually got busier and busier over the last few years. It's because of the groups and people coming into the groups. So doing a lot of peer support and getting people into hospital before it's crisis.

Before they would come in and they'd get scheduled because they're going in via a police ambulance and going in in a really bad way. But now they're going in in a supported way with a peer support worker or they've learnt the skills through the groups to advocate for themselves and go back into the system when they're not doing well.

Kirsty: That's amazing. 

Kelly: And they're not getting [00:14:00] scheduled as much. 

Kirsty: There must be such. an element of safety there because I would anticipate that for a lot of people that experience of being scheduled and hospitalisation that's an extra trauma. And necessary, unfortunately sometimes, but if there is a way to navigate that so that it can be less traumatic so that there can be a sense of agency in it… And is that what people are finding through the group?

Di: You know what comes out of that for me? And I don't know that I've thought about it quite like this before. You said that when they meet the lived experience person, they have a bond. And you know the hardest thing when I think about asking for help is the language. Is the words. It comes right down to that.

How do I say to you? I'm not feeling great, or I need somebody to help me with my trampoline, or, you know, whatever. That lived experience person, the barrier of how to say it, has gone.

Kelly: That's [00:15:00] right. 

Di: So, there's like this shared language. That is so important.

Kelly: And it is very powerful in the groups. They'll pick up on each other when they're not doing well.

It's an unspoken language, it's a feeling. We don't report anything back to their clinicians of what's going on in the group. They can talk about their suicidal thoughts, they can talk about suicidal plans. It's not going to be acted upon unless they're in danger to themselves at that moment in time.

When they admit those things to their clinicians, the clinicians have to act and have to follow that up. 

Kirsty: That makes people not want to admit it, doesn't it? 

Kelly: That's right. 

Kirsty: And I imagine that it must just give them such a feeling of relief to be in a group of other people with that same lived experience.

And not have to feel… because there still is so much stigma in our society around suicide. I mean, you think back in the day, people who died by suicide couldn't be buried in church grounds and things like that. 

Di: Lost their insurances. 

Kirsty: Yeah. Those laws only changed 10 years ago, like in churches.

[00:16:00] That kind of stigma is still so entrenched. And it must just be such a relief to sit down with somebody who has had that same experience and who's not touching you, who's not, you know, and have it be normalised. Which as you said, doesn't encourage suicide. 

Kelly: No. And that's where our programs have been heavily researched.

So we've got about five research papers that have come out of the Eclipse group so far. The evidence of what we're collecting is that their resilience is going up by being at the group and their sense of burdensomeness is going down and their help seeking behaviour is going up. So yeah, it's a pretty cool space to sit in and watch that.

So very rewarding. It's a hard group. We talk about the hard stuff, but when you see them connecting and having aha moments… They may disclose that they've got no hope. They don't believe they'll ever get out of this. They can't think of any other options but to die by suicide. But when you see them have an aha moment with each other -  last week we had a guy who was very, he can't [00:17:00] see any way out of his situation, but he connected with two other

people when they were talking about their mental health and he said when you talk, I feel like you're talking directly to me. You're talking for me. What you're saying is exactly what's in my head. That's very rewarding. When you see them have that and that just clicks something in their brain and relieves a bit of distress that hopefully will get some cogs turning to help them on their way.

Di: And the word tribe comes to mind. You know that. Looking for your tribe, such an important thing for us and these groups are providing that opportunity and why not? You know, why not? I just feel so warm when I think about they've found their tribe, you know. You've got other people who can validate that this is real and this happens and you do, people get through it.

People do die, but people get through it. [00:18:00] It's a hard road. Let's talk about it. 

Kirsty: So you said it's curriculum based. What does that mean? What do you talk about? What are the subjects, I guess, that you go through? 

Kelly: So some of the subjects we talk about is what causes my thoughts, what are the daily triggers, the daily stresses, then how do we cope with those thoughts?

If I've got a negative thought, how do I challenge that? How do I check if that's real? How do I navigate a negative thought and sort of validate it, but also move it around. We talk about how to find hope again. We talk about how to talk about suicide safely. We talk about resources, where to tap them into local resources.

They share resources. If it's a book or a podcast that they're listening to. 

Kirsty: Obviously, then, you've shared our podcast. 

Kelly: Yeah. And we will be, especially this one. So the curriculum at the time when this group was being set up, there was no support group in Australia for suicide attempt survivors. So this curriculum comes from a centre [00:19:00] in Los Angeles called D.D. Hirsch. So our CEO, they did a lot of research at the time and connected with these guys. They've adopted us and we're able to use their training. We all train with them each year and we use their curriculum and they help us out with our studies and research. 

Kirsty: You mentioned that something that you talk about is How do we talk about suicide safely.

And I just want to dig into that briefly because I think that part of the reason that we do still talk about suicide in hushed tones is because people worry that if I talk about it I might give someone the idea. And maybe I will encourage them. So I would prefer to go around this subject.

What we've seen from what we've been talking about is, talking about it actually reduces the risk, but how do we talk about it safely? 

Kelly: So there's guidelines that we can follow. It's around our language. So in the groups we're allowed to talk about suicide, suicidal feelings, suicidal plans. We just don't go into methods.

Mainly because that can be triggering for someone else, so if they've tried the same method or if they hear that, that could be, that could be triggering for them. The other word that we don't use is the word commit, and I might get Di to talk a little bit more on that. 

Di: And we use a service called MindFrame, who look at the language that's acceptable around certain topics.

So, we don't use the word commit, because you commit a crime. And yes, it used to be a crime. So it's very much away from that. So people consider suicide, they die by suicide, they are thinking of suicide.

Kelly: And I think to add to that Di, is the framework for Lifeline. It's very purposeful. So we don't just bring up suicide, you know, you don't go to a barbecue and, start talking about suicide.

There's a purpose behind, like, we're trained to listen to certain words and certain what we call invitations in a conversation. And then they're picked up on and then they're reflected and paraphrased and then comes in the [00:21:00] conversation. So it's about making sure it's purposeful, it's meaningful. 

Di: And it's respectful.

Kelly: And it's respectful. But also, when we're having those conversations with people, we're not re traumatising them or re triggering them. So we're kind of guiding the conversation with the framework as well, so, so it keeps safe for everybody. 

Di: And you know, it's a good thing for people that might be listening to this podcast to know that they are no burden.

When they reach out for help. Our crisis supporters, the team that Kelly works with, we're safe. We have good supports around us, we are well educated, we've got all the resources that we need. Therefore, asking or speaking about it or talking to us is of no burden to us. In fact, it's what we know helps and we want to support and be there.

But I think that's a good message to get out is, we're okay. And you talk to us and we'll still be okay.

Kirsty: Yes, [00:22:00] absolutely. That's great permission. 

In terms of the people that do call and encouraging people to ask for help - is it working? How often are people calling Lifeline? What's the stats there? 

Di: So during COVID we were over 3, 000 calls a day.

And we are still around 3, 000 calls a day. So what it proves is that, as you said earlier, there is a culture in Australia that Lifeline's there. And it's 24/7. We've also expanded that to a, we have a text for good now and we have a web based chat line as well. 

Kirsty: Which I think is incredible. 

Di: Which is all meeting the needs of what people are saying. Hey, we want to ask for help, so give us all the avenues. So now we've got the web and we've got the text and we've got the phone. I think it's working because it's everyday Aussies reaching out to everyday Aussies. Crisis supporters are you and me. They're everyday people who've got big hearts, who are well trained, who are well supported, and [00:23:00] who really sincerely know that listening to somebody else at a time when they can't boil rice, or they're going to take their own life. But they're there.

Kelly: And a young guy once said to me, when I call Lifeline, I know the person wants to listen to me because they volunteered to be there, so they want to be there. He said, when I go to my psychologist, he's paid to listen to me, and I don't feel like he's really going down to that depth with me, like a Lifeline call would.

Kirsty: That's so interesting. 

Kelly: So, yeah, and that was from a young, he was only about 16 and I'm like, wow, he’s got great insight. 

Kirsty: And I feel like as well, I love the addition of the text line and the web based chat, because someone like me who has to like give myself a pep talk to call my hairdresser, the ability to just text and not have that pressure of, I've got to talk on the phone.

It's like, that's incredible. It must just make it so accessible. 

Di: It makes it accessible, it makes it more confidential, because I've considered ringing Lifeline at 3 [00:24:00] o'clock in the morning, but I don't want to wake my husband up. So, you know, texting is much, or, or the web, there's no voice, so people can do it a little bit more privately if that's what they want.

Kirsty: You guys don't only offer training to Lifeline volunteers, do you? 

Di: We offer training in the community. The one that's getting the most traction at the moment is the Accidental Counsellor one. Because it's practical. 

Kirsty: Yeah. So if I want to do that, if I say I want to do the Accidental Counsellor training, what do I need to do?

Di: Look on our web page, you'd see advertising for it when it's coming up into the community. You could ring your local Lifeline centre and they're listed in the phonebook, or you can go on lifeline.org.au. And see what's available in your area. We sell it to corporates as well. There's organisations out there that are employing us to train for their staff.

And that's a great opportunity for people. It's good team building, but it's also [00:25:00] good PD. 

Kirsty: Yeah. Absolutely. And I mean if you're a local, so if you're a Port Macquarie Hastings person, you might even have the opportunity to be trained by the best trainer ever. 

Kelly: That could go to my head, you know.

Kirsty: Well, maybe it should, Di, I mean, deservedly. 

Last time we talked, we spoke about how we need to stop asking people to reach out in the darkest moment. We need to reach in. 

Di: If we could make that a mantra. Let's learn how to reach in and stop asking people who are in crisis to reach out. Yeah. 

Kirsty: Thank you so much for coming in guys.

Di: Fantastic. 

Kirsty: Yeah. Really valuable stuff to talk about. I think we'd love to have you back at some point. 

Di: Oh, we'd love, love it. 

Kirsty: A hundred percent want to do this accidental counselling course. Um, we should say that if anything that we've spoken about on this program has brought anything out for anybody listening, has been distressing or triggering in any way, even if you just need a hand to boil some rice, give Lifeline a call 13 11 14, they are always there.

And also please remember to have a look at the people around you, reach [00:26:00] in. If you think someone might need to ask for help, it is a hard barrier to break. So, um, yeah, again, thank you very much for coming in and thanks for listening. And we'll see you next time on Enabled. 

Di: Thanks so much. Bye.