Kirsten Mah - Next Chapter: Published Author

Thank you so much for joining us!

On today's episode, we will be hearing from Kirsten Mah, wife, mother, teacher and all around amazing human being, who recently decided to go all in on her dream of becoming a published author.

Kirsten will share with us what it was like to transition from a stay-at-home mom of 3, to getting back into the workforce as a teacher and now taking the leap to writing her own novels:  "Resistance" and "Redemption".

We will also discuss our concerns regarding the gap in knowledge and experience women of younger generations are experiencing in the corporate and political world with Gen X women choosing to step away from the senior-level roles they've spent decades working to achieve, so that they can go after their dreams. 

This is a good one!  You don't want to miss it!

If you're interested in reading Kirsten's novels, you can purchase "Resistance" here and pre-purchase "Redemption" which will be coming out in September here.  You can also find more about Kirsten on her website and Facebook and Instagram pages.

Transcript

Thank you so much for joining us. On today's episode, we will be talking to Kirsten Ma, wife, mother, teacher, and all around amazing human being who has recently decided to go all in on her dream of being a published author. Welcome Kirsten, and thank you for being here. Full disclosure, Kirsten is my cousin.

I really wanted to have you on as one of my first guests. Because it was your brave move to go after your dreams. That gave me the courage to go after my own. Oh, thank you. First off, I would love to know whether being an author has always been a dream or is it a recent discovery? Uh, not one that I ever considered being something that I could make a living at.

You know, growing up I didn't know any authors. I didn't even think it was a job, so it was something that was firmly in a hobby. I guess mode for me. And so it's an amazing, the number of teachers who are, are writers, you figure, okay, well, Yeah, I can write a little bit and then, but you know what my, what I can bring home, uh, you know, a respectable money and be a, and be a teacher.

And so I, when I first started thinking about really wanting to do this, it was definitely something that I wanted to have for myself. I mean, I did teach, but I, I stayed home with my kids and that was a bit of a struggle for me. I was certainly a choice. I, I wanted to, but I, I often felt because we were told we should have it all, that somehow I was feeling.

By doing that. Yeah. And that I wasn't, you know, uh, contributing to society or whatever. And so I struggled. I struggled a lot with it. I mean, I, I knew rationally that that was ridiculous and that I, we, we had made the choices that we made for our family and that I don't regret doing that for my kids. Yeah.

And I, as I said to my husband, I certainly was. Qualified to be home looking after my kids. And, you know, when we moved here, I wasn't really, uh, the, the market for teaching. They just, there was no way I could like, you know, like be a substitute. Even it was, you know, people just didn't get called and I, I didn't have childcare here for the once in the Blue Moon call, so I was like, okay, well we'll just put that aside.

So I, we wanted to write, but like, I went to university, I got an English degree and uh, but I didn't ever. Think that I could make a living at this, which is weird, you know, like I didn't even, it didn't even occur to me to be like an editor or anything, which is weird. But, so it was always there. And then when I wanted to have more of an identity for myself, I started to pursue it and it became something that was, I just wanted to get better at, and I challenged myself.

Then I, I was, that wasn't enough. I wanted more. And so I decided I would work on trying to be published. The publishing industry has changed a lot. And so for a long time I didn't see myself as someone who would indie publish like I have, but came clear that if I wanted it to happen, I should make it happen for myself.

Right? So that's, that was the decision. But I had also in the meantime, gone back to teaching. 'cause suddenly there was a teacher shortage and they just, it was like all hands on deck and they really needed people and it was great and I really, really enjoyed it. But I quickly realized that it would be impossible to.

Right, and, and teach. It's just they, they don't actually, uh, there's just too much homework teaching. And, um, I, even though I tried to work, you know, work around it by working part-time and that kind of thing, I still, it just came to a point where, uh, one of them had to go. I either had to go full-time teaching or I had to go, uh, full-time writing.

And so, I am footing the bills for publishing right now. Right. And not actually paying them, uh, that, um, I, you know, switched gears and I'm so thankful that I did. It's, it's, it was amazing. It was very scary. Like I. A lot of fear when I was thinking about quitting. Um, 'cause I did ask my school board for, uh, unpaid leave and it wasn't, I was not, um, accepted.

So it was like, well I guess we're just doing this without that safety net. Yeah. And it was, it was actually like visceral fear of, my God, what am I doing? This is, this is so. Like this isn't responsible. This isn't, you know, this is, you know, even sometimes a little bit, felt a little bit self-indulgent, maybe selfish.

Yeah. That voice in your head, hey, yeah, you gotta play it safe. You gotta be smart and take care of business. Isn't that so funny that we somehow forget about any kind of dreams when we're mm-hmm. Thinking only about obligation. I have to say though, I've just finished your book and I am so glad you decided to go after your dream anyways.

Good for you. So, you know what, it's kind of funny 'cause it, it's kind of a 10 year before I like seriously decided, yeah, this is what I'm going to do. It took me 10 years. I think that that's another female thing. Pretty sure it wouldn't have taken the man 10 years then. Get the courage up to do it. But you know, like that point where, you know, I was, I took course even though I had an English degree, I took courses and I learned about the industry and, you know, I made connections and things as well and have a community.

I, I actually switched genres completely 'cause I all along was writing middle grade and ya fantasy. And I just was holding on, in particular the first book that I wrote, 'cause it's kind of tied into my, my dad. So it was, it was, it's kind of, it was like too close and I just couldn't let it go. So, I thought, okay, you know what I'm gonna do?

Uh, so I decided on the pen name. So like, if you know, it's like this, I don't know, it's like an invisib invisibility cloak. Like, of course everyone I know knows I've done it, but like, it's like, I don't know, it was weird. It was a sort of strange thing. It allowed me to sort of switch. To more of a business-minded head and kind of meld the two together.

And then romance is easily understood in the, uh, indie publishing and they have a massive market share for indie publishers. Women support them. Yeah, it's just, it's just great. So it was easy to understand how to do it. Well, easier and yeah, and I was able to get outta my own head. And so really the, that book was only two year process from sort of like inception to completion, which is like so fast for me compared, compared to the other stuff that I've written, but.

Um, and actually the sec, the second one is already ready to go. I just have to finish copy edit, and I hope to release it in September. I'm so excited, so excited for that. I really love the first one. I'm not just blowing smoke up your behind because you're my cousin, but, um, it's not just. Know you're everyday run in the mill, fluffy romance novel.

There's actual intrigue, there's drama, there's suspense, there's uh, depth in the character, there's actual meat you can sink your teeth into, and I really, really enjoyed it. So I'm so excited for the next one. Uh, the next one is going be as at the, in this series. Uh, it's a small town. I like small town, um, romance because um, it's a group of characters and you just kind of work.

And so the next couple is going to be a song. She was the, the, the protestor and, uh, and Justin, who was the villain in the first one. Uh, he's, yeah. So they're, they're the couple in the, in the second, in the second book. So Redemption's, the second one, correct? Yes. Yes. Redemption. Yeah. And the first one is resistance, of course.

And for those who are listening that don't know much about the book, would you mind giving them a bit of a description and a breakdown and how it all came about? Sure. Um, so resistance is a small town romance, so that it means it's, uh, it's set in a, it's actually a fictional, uh, uh, small town that's on the, on Vancouver Island.

It's on the West coast. It's the word of modeled after Port Renfru. But it doesn't exist except for in my, uh, imagination. It follows a young teacher who has returned home after kind of a disastrous end to a relationship, and she's at home taking care of her grandparents. They don't really need to be taken care of.

And things are heating up in town because, uh, it's a logging town like many, uh, towns on, uh, Vancouver Island. And there is, uh, an area that the, this company wants to log. The company that her grandfather had actually just sold. To another company and they're threatening to, uh, log a pretty sensitive area.

And so there's the towns in an uproar because it, it's, uh, sort of threatening something that they hold dear, and there's a bit of intrigue about who owns the company and what their um, what their motivations are behind it. Over the course of the summer, the protest keyed up and as does Courtney's relationship with, uh, the R C M P officer who keeps resting her grandparents, uh, at the protest who he is also, uh, curious about who is behind, he's suspicious about who is behind the company and their motivations, uh, mostly because his estranged father and brother are involved and he thinks they're up to no good.

So there's a bit of a mystery and it all comes to a head at, uh, kind of a disastrous, um, incident at on.

But as it, it's a romance. It's, uh, always, um, happily ever after. So the couple, well, things are rocky things are, you know, it's a happy ending. So that's good. It'll be interesting to see how you give Justin the chance to be redeemed in the second novel, because he was a bit of a jerk in the first time.

Yeah. Yeah. That was, It was interesting. It was, uh, it was a challenge for sure, but there's something that I learned writing is that the idea of the villain is villains are the heroes of their own story. Like nobody ever thinks that they're the villain. And so that leads me to, uh, that led me to think about, well, what made him the way that he is and delve into, uh, into that.

And also we find out more about song and, and her background. And, uh, she's actually made quite a big life change because, We saw at the end of the, the novel, she kind of hung up her pro, her protesting, uh, signs or whatever, and then she's gotta, you know, try and find a, a new way forward in her life. She was also interesting character to, uh, work with, but your writing reminds me an awful lot of, uh, Helen Wang's.

Series, uh, kissing Principle, although her, uh, her novels are a little more graphic when it comes to the love scenes. But I, um, as I'm reading through it and I'm, we're getting to know the characters in depth and the whole family, I can see where the next series is coming up before the end of the book, and sure enough, we're gonna talk about Justin and Song.

So. Very cool. It's comparison. Thank you. Although, I must admit, I wasn't too upset that your novels weren't that graphic when it came to the love scenes. Scenes, how we're related. Yeah, I do, I actually read a lot of spicy stuff and, but I, when it came to writing, it's a whole different skill and I said, so I gave myself permission with this.

To keep it more, um, they call it like closed door. Um, sometimes they refer to them as clean romances, but I don't really like that term so much because it kind of makes it sound like it's not. Okay. To have that. And it's totally, I think okay to have that. So I prefer like closed door or like they do the spice meter.

So, um, it would be sweet, I call it sweet ish because true sweet romance, like things you find out, like Amish romance is an actual genre of romance. Oh, really? And in it, they don't, they don't even hold hands or anything. Like it's really like mm-hmm. So there's a very big spectrum. So, you know, things you find out.

So I, because I have swearing and stuff like that, I wouldn't actually be in that camp so much. Like, some of them are very, like, they're very specific. They don't want anything that is, that it would be not naughty in their books. So I I, I was like, well, I'm not quite there. So yeah. So, but I, I gave myself permission to, um, to do this series and I'd probably be at least four books, maybe five.

And then I, I do intend to. Try my hand at doing some spicy, I don't know whether I'd be any good at it, but that'll come later. And have you had that conversation with your husband Dale? Has he been supportive of that? Oh, about the spicy. I never, I, I think he totally would be. He never reads any of my stuff really.

Well, that's not true. Occasionally he will. He's not, he doesn't read a lot of fiction. He's more of a nonfiction reader. Oh yeah. And so, um, master science. He's not, none of my family, none of my kids have ever, like any of my stuff, like even like short stories and things they. They, um, whatever, they're all like, man, whatever Mom writes.

And they, so it's a little bit weird and I've always been sort of jealous of people who have like, oh yeah, my, oh, I wanna thank my husband, my first reader. And I'm like, yeah, it's never, never gonna happen. And he is, although sometimes I think I, I wanna encourage him to do a little bit more, just to get more of his.

Kind of like perspective point of view on things. Right. But yeah, I know, I never asked, I never run it past, I've never run it past him and say like, well what do you feel about whether or not I was writing? Um, and I'm sure he'd be okay with it. But yeah, it's, uh, most people that I, I have like the teachers at school and stuff, I actually have started prefacing 'cause I'd be like, oh yeah, it's a romance.

And they kind of, kind of, Oh, okay. Um, but then I'm like, but don't worry, it's not graphic, it's not detailed, it's not graphic. And they all, like, several of them have like, oh, okay, this. Because yeah, it's a totally different story when you, when you know the person, and, and I know this 'cause when, uh, I have a writing group I work with and one of the ladies actually writes the erotica.

And, um, I, I mean, I will read her stuff, but the whole time I'm reading it, You, you can't help but ask yourself like, Hmm, how does she think about this? Pick up this though. It's, uh, yeah, totally get it. And I'm sure your daughters will appreciate it as well when they do read it and they will. And so we're future generations and because we know the author, it's a little less uncomfortable without the extra graphic.

Detail. Um, although there's nothing missing in the novel, and I will for sure recommend it to everyone I know. Oh, thank you. And I cannot wait for the next novel to come out. Yes. Yeah. So I'm not, I'm not a, there's some people who do rapid release. I'm not, well, some people will write for, they'll kind of bank them and then they kind of release them, uh, all at once.

But, and some people just write a lot faster. I, I don't really know how, I mean, I could, yeah, honestly, but I. I did also, um, make the choice. One of the reasons I wanted to, uh, stop teaching and concentrate is because I actually had three jobs, right? There was the teaching, there was the writing, and then there's still, the mom and the girls only have a few more years where I.

Especially since I, and I learned this after Jen left, left home, the end is that in this, you know, era of our li of our life, and so I want to be able to right, have the time to, to drive them, to wherever, help them with things, sit down and talk with them at breakfast and, and that kind of thing. And. So, um, rapid releases.

I wouldn't be working that hard to do that now, but I figured I could do a couple a year. So that's the plan. But I will also have a plan to resurrect some of the fantasy, the, the particular, the middle grade one that I started with. I think I'm going to, uh, see if I can find an editor to work with. That was, A big lesson I learned and wish I'd done so much longer.

Although again, it was that, oh, they're expensive 'cause you have to pay them per word. Uh, is working with an editor. If I had done it like five years ago, it would've made such a difference. I mean, I learned a lot doing courses and things, but have actually working with somebody on your own manuscript, like just a whole other level of, uh, of learning.

And so, yeah, so I've decided I'm going to, uh, Make the investment and see whether or not I can save it. We'll see how, see what somebody else says when they read it. It is, or I'm gonna read it before I send it 'cause it's been a few years. Um, and I will, uh, decide whether or not to do that. But that's the plan.

So it's still planned to also release under my own name. Um, and do some, uh, now that I know self publishing a little bit better. Yeah. Yeah. And the world didn't come to an end when you pressed. Publish. Oh gosh. Sort of. Actually, it was weird that people asked How does it feel? And I actually was saying to, uh, one of my writer friends, I'm like, exactly the same as before.

Yeah. And now I just have more things to do and like, there's more things that I have to look after, but it felt, felt a little anticlimactic. I, I have to say, like, part of it was I published on a Monday, which I don't why, I'm not sure why I decided to publish on Monday. No one was home. Uh, that night, like there was things to do, so there was like no, like celebration and.

I, you know, I didn't have a launch party or anything, and so, yeah, I, I don't know, and I, I felt a little bit more like the, the world would celebrate a little bit more. Yeah. But I kind of, in retrospect realized that this is the way it's always for, you know, people they, you know, do this big monumental thing.

Yeah. It's, it's just the same for other people. So, yeah. I, I felt a little bit like, mm, but I think I'll just have to throw my own, my own party, like, Definitely need to celebrate yourself. Absolutely. No, I know what you mean. Like you put something out there and you think, oh, I'm gonna get all these likes and attention.

It's like, huh, you do realize I just wrote a book. People like, come on. I know. I know. And then, uh, because it's a slow thing and I, I, I'm building like this, this is an interesting thing about this. I actually was having this conversation with Dale and we're talking about, you know, doing our wills and all sorts of fun adults, stuff like that.

Mm-hmm. And it's time to, we, we've already done them, but it's time to change 'cause. Like life has changed. Some, uh, some parts of our lives have changed. And I was saying to him like, you know, we'll have to figure out what we're doing with this. Like, this now is like, this will be something that lives on after.

And so they can have quite a long life. So yeah, on one hand I expected all these like likes and like, woo-hoo. Everyone's gonna be like, look at this amazing thing. Uh, but I also know rationally, That it will build. Yeah. And like 10, 15 years from now, people could potentially still be like, yeah. You know, taking and reading it and, and that kind of thing.

So it has, it has a long life. Yeah. I just wish that it'd be a bit more of a splash. So, uh, yeah. Try not to look at the, the, you know, the stats or whatever Right. Uh, from the different. Platforms that I'm on because it's a little bit like, that's a good question. Um, what are you doing to market your book outside of social media posts, et cetera?

Um, I've just started, um, doing like, I got involved with this, uh, group called Book Sirens and so I wish I'd known about when I was, because I'm a really fast reader. And so, uh, I wish I'd known about it because basically readers volunteer to, like, they get these free books from people and then just, you know, they pay by reviewing.

So they're going to try and find some new readers for me. So they've given a three, a three month window, I guess, where I get to be on their site and, you know, and then, Various things where, uh, I've been trying, there's another one called Book Funnel where you partner up with other indie authors and they do these promos.

And so some of them are for building newsletters and others are for actually like doing sales and or, um, I have a reader magnet that I wrote. That is actually the love story of the grandparents. I, I decided to, that it was like a prequel. And so I give that out. In some ways, I kind of did it backwards.

They, this is the kind of thing you're supposed to do with like a reader magnet, like before you launch a book. But I kind of, I was like, okay, well I could do that, or I can just work at it backwards. It's just, it'll just take a little bit longer. And then I still haven't decided, like there's a kind of different schools of thought.

Some, some writers have, um, their first. Book in their series, they make it like, it's called Perma Free. So they give it away for, for free, and then in the hopes that people will, you know, read that and then buy subsequent ones. But then others feel, well, no, you really shouldn't give any, even if it, you're not only charging 99 cents or something, people should still recognize that, you know, you've, you've worked on this.

And so I don't, I, I still, the jury's out on that whether I will switch things up. When I have the second book, but I have, uh, yeah, some sales planned over the summer before the ne second one comes out. And yeah, it just, it's, it is very difficult to get hurt. It's kind of saturated, uh, market. So yeah, just be the best that I can.

And, um, I, I, on one hand, you know, my deep, dark secret. Stream is to be on the, you know, New York Times bestseller or whatever, you know, make be those good, you know, like Nora, uh, what is it, Nora Roberts or whatever, but that isn't, That, that really isn't realistic. So my real actual goal is if I were able to cover the cost of production, I'd be pretty happy with that.

Don't sell yourself short though, cousin. Well, I wouldn't say no if the other thing happens, but yeah, you gotta, it's that, that tempering your expectations because I find that like the, it's really easy to set myself up to feel like a failure. Well, like, you know, and if I were to have it the other way and.

Successes. So, um, yeah, so there's like planning and Plan Z and Plan Z is. I or Roberts or whoever. Yeah. And everyone's like, oh my God, my book's in Costco. Mm-hmm. Like, like that's down there. That, that's the dream. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. It's a lot in between. Um, oh. But yeah, just, uh, trying to be grateful that I had the opportunity and, um, remember that what's what in appears that did go into.

Very cool. Very cool. I'm so proud of you for putting yourself out there, and I'm hoping you wouldn't mind. Mm-hmm. For those that are out there trying to become an author, if you wouldn't mind giving them a few steps that they could start with so they can get started too. Yeah. Well, I think one of the, I mean, I did finally decide to publish, but for a long time writing because it was a hobby.

But it's also very interesting because of very active communities online and in, you know, well, pandemic. Kind of took a knock back on some of the in-person things, but even in person, like, uh, within my small town, we had a group that met monthly and um, you know, so there were lots of people who are kind of doing the same things.

And so even as a sort of, I guess brain, you know, brain health and like connections kind of becoming a senior citizen kind of idea, I was like, okay, even if nothing ever happens, then I still have these. Wonderful people that I meet with. 'cause I, I still, lots of writers that I know, uh, don't actually have any intention of pursuing publication.

They do it for themselves, like maybe, perhaps they're working on a memoir for their own family, or they just do it to relieve stress. Or sometimes some people, there's lots of contests and things that you can. Be involved with to kind of hone your craft if, if you want to, because the getting into the business side of things can sometimes take a little bit of the shine off the creativity.

So yeah, that's a bit of a balance that I'm finding now that I don't wanna get caught up. It's not, for me, it's not about the selling, it's actually having the, you know, the finished product, a complete. Story. Um, 'cause there's a lot been, there's a lot of, uh, incomplete ones sitting on my computer right now.

So, yeah. And that's been the most satisfying part is that, you know, to have that goal and actually have it completed. And a lot of, well, pride and satisfaction and I was able to, to do it. And the self-publishing thing is pretty easy to do these days, but still a lot of, there's a bit of an uphill uh, growth.

Needed in my technical skills and, you know, managing everything. And I had to figure out, well, I didn't have to, but I decided this is my dad. Hard ingrained in me, oh, you gotta do it yourself. You do it yourself. So I figured out how to do my own website and these things. I didn't have to one 'em was like, oh, it's too much money.

It's too much money. You know, you're not making any, so, yeah. Gotta Yes. Oh yeah. That voice is very, rings very loud. Even though my son will be like, oh, for goodness sakes, just hire somebody. Uh, so yeah, but I just trying to not like, I mean, 'cause you, you can, but that being said, there's massive industry built around, uh, people just like me and who wanna do self publish and uh, unfortunately there's people who are.

Kind of shady. Yeah. And, uh, there's no, no shortage of people saying, Hey, pay me for this and this is a great service. So it's, uh, yeah, you gotta really, uh, go in with a plan and know what your goals are and uh, and make sure that you're doing your homework before you sign up for things. But yeah, the communities are very helpful for that.

Lots of writers and they're very helpful bunch, you know, like, Hey, even on Facebook, if you wanna be involved with different things, lots of people give advice and they're very open about it, so. Fantastic to see, create, you know, the creativity of people. And, uh, that's, that always blows me away. So I'm, I'm really enjoying that part of it.

Yeah. It's so important to have a community, isn't it? You have people to lean on. It makes a huge difference and. That's something I didn't learn till later on in life, and I'm so glad I did because really, truly what drives me, what's fulfilling for me is when I can lift others up. Problem solving is in my nature.

That's what I do even with this podcast. If I can help lift others up through this, you know, it's fulfilling and I wanna create a community because I think it's so important. Yeah, and it's fun. I'm having a lot of fun. Who knew I had a creative side? I had no idea. I've been an accountant my entire career, and even if nothing else, but helping one person comes out of this, it's totally worth it to me.

You must be feeling, uh, the same way now that you're doing what you've always dreamt of doing. It's, uh, pretty satisfying waking up every morning thinking this is what I should be doing. Yes. Yeah. Um, you know, I do, I do miss uh, teaching. I was actually just back, uh, to the school that I, I worked at on Friday, and I do miss the kids.

Miss my colleagues. I don't miss a lot of other stuff that, uh, that goes along with it. But, um, yeah, to wake up every day, I have no shortage of things to do, and I'm just, it's very engrossing, it's super satisfying, um, to, to do. It's just, yeah, just too many ideas and, uh, not enough hours in the day, I find.

So it's a. To be, um, so nice, uh, to be, uh, just like at home, like at home and working and I set my own time and, uh, being my own boss, it's, yeah, I'm really, really liking it. Not, uh, running around like a crazy person all the time. Just focusing on the stuff that makes me happy and, um, yeah, I just feel really, I'm just grateful to be able to.

To do it. And very, very, um, well, I mean, I look back and I'm like, oh gosh, I should have done it so much faster than I did. Uh, 'cause for me, there was a lot of, there's this idea of duty and 'cause I thought of teaching as a calling for a long time and, you know, it's my, it was my contribution to making the world a better place.

And so, uh, I mean, I taught through the pandemic and I, I just did all these things 'cause I thought that I should, so I, mm-hmm. It's, I, I'm not things. I should anymore, I'm doing things because I, I want to That's a right. A big, big difference. Totally. And, uh, it's, it's nice. Yeah. So, um, it, it's kind of funny 'cause I, both of my daughters, um, Vivian is, uh, 17 and she's very gifted visual artist.

And so, you know, the conversation started when she was sort of like, you know, 15, 16, we started talking about, so what do you wanna do? And, you know, oh, she was, oh, I'm gonna be a nurse. And I was kind of like, Okay. Like, where's this coming from? I mean, my mom was, and that there's part is part of that, but I was like, but you aren't.

I don't, so why do you feel you need to to do that? She felt that she couldn't be an artist. And I was like, what are you talking about? You wanna go and be an artist? Be an artist? Like, I, I don't want you to, I mean, your life is going to be different. You're not gonna have this probably like nine to five job or whatever.

But gosh, like even with the, with the Indi Indie stuff, like the book covers, like, you know, I hired somebody to do that. So like, there's pe you know, there's those kinds of things. Totally. For a while she thought, So she was like, oh, okay, okay. So then she's more thinking she's gonna do that. Mind you, she's still thinking about ways to pay the bill.

So for a while it was like tattoo artist, which is actually a growth industry. There's not massive, uh, need for them, believe it or not. Although she's decided no, but now she's saying, yeah, I'm gonna be an art teacher. So she's still not quite at the point where it's the art at she's trying to figure out.

But I, you know, it's, yeah. Even younger generations thinking the same thing, so. It's more of a, I dunno, I dunno. The important difference here though is the fact that you're recognizing this as her mother very early on. You are cognizant of that. You're very sensitive to that, and you're telling her she has options.

That's something we didn't necessarily have when we were. Her age. So that is progress. That's huge progress. In fact, I do know a lot of women, especially in the corporate world and in the political realm, they're leaving in droves. They're quitting their jobs now because they're not af even after decades of working so hard to achieve the roles they have now, they've decided that.

That's not necessarily what they wanna be, so that kudos to them, and it's a great thing that we're realizing that we can do whatever we want to. The only concern I have though, is we're leaving a huge gap between the Gen X and the millennials before they're ready to take over the corporate world. So I don't want us to take it.

Giant step backwards in society. I want women to still have the same level of, uh, say in what, what's going on in the world. So that is the biggest concern for me. I love the fact that the next generations are having a what's in it for me attitude, which is way healthier. Yeah. Than when, how we approach life growing up.

And so I have no fear for the future. I'm just worried about that small gap in between until they take over the world. Well, and the thing with everyone quitting and, uh, the way that the younger people are, what I hope is that there's more, um, Work life balance. And that's why the women are quitting. Like people our age are under such pressure.

They have, you know, the kids that are still, you know, on high, high schoolers still need you just as much. Or you maybe their kids are younger if they started later. Um, they have their elderly parents and, and you know, and then the whole like, I don't know, finding a lot about this whole perimenopause menopause thing is the amount of stress.

And the cortisol that's in us. And, and, and so the, the, the way that work is set up is there's, you know, it's, it's like you have to give them everything and then you're supposed to fit everything else around it. And I think if they were more flexible, I, I think that they would finally would, you know, people need to live their lives.

Um, and that's, I think that's really more important stuff, right? Like that there, you know, your family and your friends and your health and all that kind of stuff is Yeah. Productivity and. Things, um, you people need to eat, but this in terms of like putting everything towards that and then, you know, getting the leftovers for the really important stuff in your life, it's not, not ideal.

So hopefully they, the younger kids can change that. Mm-hmm. And, and make it so that, you know, there can be, you know, women in leadership and things. Because right now, the way it's. It's just possible. Like I look at my, my daughters loved they, they really looked up to Jacinda, like every time she was on the, she was, yeah.

I really sad that even she ended up. Having to to leave. So Very true. I could not agree more. Thank you again for being here today. No problem. There is so much more for us to discuss. Yeah, and I'm sure you and I could chat for several more hours, so we for sure will have to have you back for another episode.

I would also love to have you back to talk about your second novel Redemption. Oh, sure. And how your new life as an author is going. That'll be awesome. Awesome. Okay. Let's chat soon, and for anyone who hasn't yet read Kirsten's book, resistance. Which I highly recommend, you can click on the link below and it will take you to the places where you can get a copy of your own.