Soulful Chats with Psychologist Emma Gray

Welcome to the 'Soulful Chats' Series, where I will be chatting with other psychologists and therapists who have already begun integrating spirituality into their lives and coaching work.

Today in the first chat of the series, I speak with Clinical Psychologist, Coach and Mindfulness Expert Emma Gray.

Join us as we explore Emma's journey with exploring the teachings of the Dalai Lama and Eckart Tolle and the significant positive impact these teachings and practices have had on her life and work.

You can find Emma and her offerings on her website at https://emmagray.net/ or on Instagram @emmaygray.coaching

Be sure to SHARE this episode to anyone you feel may be interested or benefit from this content.

And please don't forget to hit SUBSCRIBE to keep up to date with our episodes and give us a RATING below. ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Intro and Outro music: Inspiring Morning by Playsound

You can also find me on Instagram @integrated_wisdom

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.

Transcript

Tatiana: 0:00

In 2024, I have decided to run a separate series. of soulful chats. With other psychologists and therapists who are spiritually inclined and have already incorporated some spiritual concepts and practices into their life and work. The series will run once monthly. And I'm excited to share with you all the wisdom of my colleagues. Colleagues who are willing to share very openly and vulnerably their insights that they have gained. from their spiritual journey. The challenges that they've experienced in reconciling their scientists, practitioners, cells, and their spiritual selves. And the transformative gains they've made. By integrating these perspectives. To empower themselves and their clients. I hope that you find it as illuminating and exciting as I do. These conversations are part of the movement. That's taking place to lay the path. for the inevitable transformation. That will overtake the mental health industry. And the world at large. As more and more people begin to embrace and integrate their spiritual essences. Welcome to the Integrated Wisdom Podcast. I am your host, Tatiana Da Silva. Join me as we discuss what it means to live an integrated life and explore ways for you to create a life filled with greater meaning, peace, and connection by integrating the wisdom of spirituality, psychology, Neuroscience, Epigenetics and Energy Psychology are hoped to empower you to create deeper and more loving connections with yourself and others, whilst also paving the way for humanity at large to be reimagined and inspired to become the very best version of itself. All right. So I'm very excited to be having this chat today. It's my first of what I hope to be many conversations with incredible psychologists and therapists who have been bridging that gap between psychology and science and spirituality. Today, I have my dear friend and colleague, Emma Gray, who I've had the pleasure of getting to know more fully over the last couple of years. In pursuit of common goals around bridging that gap of spirituality and psychology and how to bring that to the masses more fully. Emma is an international best selling author. She's a clinical psychologist, a coach, and a mindfulness expert. She works with therapists, coaches, and entrepreneurs who are passionate about changing lives. Emma helps women restore balance and unlock their highest potential, and she teaches manifestation mastery to help her clients shift those blocks, keeping them stuck, so that they can live their lives. From a soul and soul driven passions with more ease and flow. So welcome, Emma. Welcome to Integrative Wisdom. We're so, so excited to have you here today.

Emma: 3:12

Thank you so much, Tatiana. I'm so excited about this conversation. I'm so excited about this, this podcast. I think it's such a beautiful offering and just, Ooh, yeah. I can't wait to dive in.

Tatiana: 3:23

Oh, so excited. Thank you. I'm really, I was so grateful that you were willing to join me with. Uh, and I know that you have a wealth of knowledge to share on, on what it means to be a spiritual psychologist and how that can enhance both our personal lives, but also our professional lives as well. So let's, shall we dive in?

Emma: 3:44

Let's

Tatiana: 3:45

All right. So I guess from your, if we float back to the very beginning of your journey with spirituality, what first sparked your interest in exploring that a little bit more fully? Okay.

Emma: 4:00

atheist actually, and a skeptic. And now I've gone way to the other end of the spectrum, total spiritual woo woo. Um, the shift happened for me, I was probably in my late 20s, I was going through some personal upheaval, um, some things that were going on around me and I, It sent me inward. It sent me on a seeking journey to figure out how to find peace in suffering, actually, and I was drawn to the Dalai Lama at the time who I love that he was about kindness and compassion and, and putting love out into the world, but also he embodied or seemed to represent inner peace. It's, you know, the Buddhist philosophy is all about, um, understanding the causes of suffering and understanding the causes of happiness and that it comes from within. Uh, so I was very drawn to that more as a philosophy and as a psychology rather than a spirituality actually at that time. Um, and then I read.

Tatiana: 5:05

Hmm.

Emma: 5:07

And that was the catalyst. That was the spark that really opened my mind and my heart to there's something more. There's something greater here. Um, it was such a powerful. Full, um, and transformational book for me that it that all of those things came together. My own personal suffering. I didn't know it at the time, but obviously my calling to work in this area. Um, so my passion and interest, um, to really understand this. Um, and to explore it and I went on silent meditation retreats and all sorts of things. I just immersed myself in lots of different practices. Um, so yeah, I think it was the perfect confluence of, of a storm and other things coming together that, that woke me up. I had my spiritual awakening.

Tatiana: 5:59

It sounds like it was quite a transformation, and a very fast one, too. So would you say that mindfulness was that first spiritual concept that Opened up the exploration journey for you, or would you say there were other things that also called to you?

Emma: 6:17

For sure, it was meditation. Absolutely. 100 percent it was meditation. And for me, that was a path to peace at that time when I did, you know, I was quite an anxious person. Internally. And there was a whole lot of stuff going on outside of me. So I was just looking for peace. So it started there, but then in my practice and in my reading and the things that I was exploring that what, what started as a mental, emotional, physiological peace, then transformed to being able to connect with something higher. So it became a spiritual practice and it's something that I still try and do every day. If I can, because of, because of the powerful benefits at all levels of my being. So yeah, for me it was definitely meditation. Yeah.

Tatiana: 7:00

wonderful. So what would you say have been the main benefits that you personally have found, so on a personal level, of incorporating spirituality into your life? Or, I mean, meditation but spirituality as well?

Emma: 7:14

yeah. So for me, it is. It's now the basis of everything. It is who I am and how I see my world and how I see the world at large and how I see my work and how I see me fitting into the greater cosmic whole. Without spirituality, I don't know, there'd be no foundation. So It's my understanding of how the world works and this connection with higher self, whatever you want to call that, in a being, in a wisdom, soul source, the universe, God, you know, we all have different words for it, but that, that higher power, that higher presence, that, that wisdom, that guidance, that fortifies me. It brings me so much ease that. There, there's something greater that knows where I am and where I want to be, and in every waking moment is guiding me, loving me, supporting me. So it's, it's been really powerful in shifting me from a fear based reality and being a very anxious person to having this. It's knowing this deep knowing and sense of trust that even in the wobbly moments, even when I can't see the bigger picture, that there's a reason that this is happening. One of my favorite sayings is the universe happens for us, not to, not to

Tatiana: 8:49

Yes.

Emma: 8:51

So that's a beautiful summation, I guess, of, of how spirituality feels. fits for me because I, even if I can't understand something from my limited human mind, I know that there's something bigger at play and that everything is coming in to serve me, whether it's personally, whether it's professionally, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah.

Tatiana: 9:10

I love that because it illustrates so beautifully this idea that once we understand that we are spiritual beings, right, that there's a spiritual context that underpins all of life, it, it, it arms us with different tools to navigate those inevitable challenges that we experience while we're here. Yeah. It was beautiful. Beautiful. Um, So, what about in your professional psychological practice, how have you found ways to incorporate that into what you're doing, but also what benefits you, you've personally experienced from trying to integrate that a little bit more?

Emma: 9:49

It's a very interesting question, Tatiana, because it's not easy to integrate.

Tatiana: 9:53

it's not. And yeah, I, there are some very real barriers aren't there in terms of the logistic way that our, our profession set up. Sure.

Emma: 10:03

absolutely. So I guess there's the perspective of my inner knowing, and even if I don't articulate this out loud to my clients, because I wouldn't do that, um, cause I don't want to overlay my worldview onto my clients, that's not my role. Um, but I have an understanding that. They have an inner being who is guiding them. I have the perspective that every soul is born into this lifetime with powerful intentions, powerful desires, powerful purpose, and that they are born with, we are each born with, a unique constellation of traits, qualities, passions, strengths that are exactly what we need to fulfill that purpose, all those, all those intentions, all those desires. And so I have that in the back of my mind, whenever I'm working with a client that whatever they want, I know they can achieve. If it's coming from their heart, if it's coming from their soul. I know that absolutely they have everything they need to get there. And so it's just working with them to give them the tools to support them at all levels of their being physical, mental, emotional. And if they want to talk about it, spiritual, if they don't, I have that in back of my mind, they don't, you know, we don't have to have that ingredient in the conversation. Um, but I know that. where they want to go and that my role is just to help support them in that and help, help them tune into their own inner wisdom in that, for them to tune into their own guidance, that this is not about me telling them stuff. This is about them figuring out how to listen. So it's been really powerful actually for me to have that perspective in a session and that if someone is suffering that that also, while. That can be painful to see, because I know, you know, we all experience suffering. Um, I know that there's a greater purpose, there's a greater reason, and often through our greatest crises, our greatest challenges, that that's where the richest material is. You know, there's the Buddhist expression, the lotus grows out of the mud, and the mud represents, The mud represents suffering and the Lotus represents light, enlightenment, possibility. And so the deeper the suffering, the greater the potential for, for transformation and to be a big bright light in the world. So even so through that lens, I don't even view suffering as a bad thing, even though clearly it's painful and uncomfortable. That there can be beautiful gifts and learnings that can come through those experiences. So, um, so that is all happening. Inside me, the way then that shows up in practice will very much be determined by the client and their worldview and I will go very slowly, gently in that and will not bring anything to the table that they don't introduce. because as a clinical psychologist I have to utilize evidence based practice and be scientific. So I tread very, very softly and gently in that. Um, that's where my coaching work is wonderful because I don't have to have my psychologist hat on and I can play and I can be as woo woo as I like.

Tatiana: 13:25

It's very

Emma: 13:25

So there's a, so there's a little bit of a split there, um, because I'm, I'm mindful of, of the environment in which we practice. So, yeah,

Tatiana: 13:36

Yeah, and so what, so what's the contrast that you've been able to observe in your coaching practice where you have a lot more freedom to use these tools more openly?

Emma: 13:47

you used the word freeing just then and that's exactly how it feels. There's a sense of freedom. There's a sense of creativity, um, authenticity. I feel like I can show up as my whole self and also that I can connect with my clients. In a much deeper way, knowing that we both have that same foundation and I can use language and I can use stories and I can use examples, which are often more powerful than what I can bring into a clinical session. I can't talk about, I feel like I can't talk about a lot of that stuff and I can't work with a lot of that stuff. So that sense of openness. and, uh, space to, to really work at all levels of being. And it's fun. It is so much fun, Tatiana.

Tatiana: 14:47

Indeed.

Emma: 14:49

It's really heartwarming. I've just come off, I've just come off a session, um, with one of my manifesting joy groups where we, we, we, it's my manifesting, teaching manifesting mastery courses and the human beings who are in that group are just the most beautiful, wise souls. And so they already come showing up just as beautiful beings. And so. We just play in this space and the pearls of wisdom that come out and the fun and the richness and it's just, it's, oh yeah, it feels powerful and special and I feel so blessed and feels a little bit magical. Yeah.

Tatiana: 15:27

how fabulous. So I imagine whilst still straddling both worlds, it can be a little jarring, like going from the, I guess the boundaries and the limitations that we have as psychologists, and then moving to this really free landscape that allows you to go deeper on so many ways. Um, do you find that, that contrast jarring?

Emma: 15:57

I don't know if I use the word jarring, but it does feel restrictive. It feels like I am repressing part of myself and the best part of myself. And what I, and what I know will serve my clients.

Tatiana: 16:09

Fair enough. And I know, Emma, from our conversations in the past that there's obviously the move to embrace being a clinical psychologist and yet being a spiritual practitioner, it can be very fraught with fear at times, largely because of the, the administrative landscape. kind of governs our profession and, and how restrictive and narrow their focus is in what they will permit us to do. So I know from, it's been a journey for you, it's been a journey for me. And I imagine for many people, many therapists who are listening to this conversation, who have been grappling with how they integrate these two parts of themselves, they've experienced that fear also, if they're definitely, if they're Australian based, I don't know. in other parts of the world. But for you specifically, what, what steps did you take to help you override that fear? Or what have you found helpful to, to, to navigate the, that fear that kind of looms over all of us at times?

Emma: 17:14

Yeah. And it was a huge fear for me, a huge, huge fear, fear of being seen, fear of getting in trouble, fear of doing the wrong thing, massive fear that was holding me back. Um, and I can still remember the very first podcast I did, um, without, without mutual coach who we both know. And I said, which version of me, do you want me to present? Do you want the. spiritual me or the science me, you know, there's still this, which one is allowed here in this space? Um, and she said, I just want the real you, just show up as the real you. And so that. gave me permission actually just to talk about all the things that I really wanted to talk about and all the things that I was really passionate about. And that was really freeing and actually felt really healing for me just to show up as me. Um, so that was the unleashing. Um, but I guess it's been, you know, for all the therapists listening, they'll know about exposure therapy. It's been gradual, small steps of exposure therapy of putting myself out there of starting to use the words like. Soul and spiritual

Tatiana: 18:17

Yeah.

Emma: 18:18

in my marketing. I was petrified, absolutely petrified to put those words or speak those words. Cause like, Oh my God, I'm going to get in such bad trouble. I'm going to be locked up in jail. If I use these words. It was such a visceral fear for me, but starting to put it out there and starting to do more, more podcasts like this and, you know, seeing the beautiful clients that I was attracting into my space. Because of being able to, to use that language, um, has been enormously helpful and actually a message that you sent me in one of my deepest, scariest moments was so, I still have it. I've still kept it. It was, uh, it was so, so powerful and helpful for me that it was a message of all is well and we've been guided and I won't share the contents of the message, but your message and your support and your encouragement, um, really helped me feel safe and that even if the world felt a little bit scary, that there's something bigger here and that it's okay to start using my voice now. So I thank you for

Tatiana: 19:31

Oh, I'm so grateful that you could be helpful for you and help you free yourself in that way. But it sounds like you feel the same way that I do about this. That for so long, the fear keeps us isolated and trapped within ourselves, right? That we hide. this spiritual parts of ourselves, like this dirty little secret, and then to find other therapists who are this way inclined, who feel the same way we do, want to have conversations like this, that itself, it emboldens us to do more of this talking, doesn't it? Have you found the same way?

Emma: 20:06

uh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Finding the woo woo therapist. Cause it is like a dirty little secret. It does feel to be that you can't talk about it, but then you, you let a little bit of that show and if the other person resonates with that, it's like. And it opens. And that has actually been really fortifying and encouraging and healing in itself to be able to have these open conversations with other therapists and to join groups of other therapists, um, you know, in, in various forums and in various training programs and in various ways, um, that has certainly given me a sense of safety to use my voice. So for sure, that's been enormously helpful.

Tatiana: 20:51

yeah. There's so much power in numbers, isn't there? And that's how the tide is going to turn as well, eventually changing this profession once and for all. But what, so on that, what value do you see, Emma, in, psychologists and therapists more broadly, um, embracing their spiritual selves and or even allowing themselves to explore any curiosity they might have about around these concepts.

Emma: 21:20

well, it's a very personal journey. I think everyone's different and some people just aren't. Um, you know, don't resonate with spirituality and that doesn't feel relevant for them. It's not part of their value set. And I totally respect that. Um, so it's a very individual journey and I know that there's a, there's a, you know, there's 8 billion people on the planet. There's 8 billion, 8 billion pathways to enlightenment. There's no one way. I mean, for me personally, it was very much, you know, meditation, yoga, those, those body practices and connecting, connecting with like minded people and absorbing the words of and the teachings of the masters. Um, all of those things have been powerfully helpful for me. Um. And I guess the more whole I am in that, the more I can bring that to my clients, but I wouldn't want to tell anyone else how to do that journey. Yeah, it's very much tuning into their own inner guidance, tuning into their intuition. Following the breadcrumbs, you know, if there's something that's of interest, if there's something that lights you up, if there's something that your heart is calling you towards, whatever that is, however that shows up, to follow that, because that's your path, you know, everyone has their own path. So to listen to that inner guidance, to listen to those whispers, um, yeah, yeah.

Tatiana: 22:51

No. Fair enough. But is it fair to say that you see value in One day, if, if this is possible, start, to start to incorporate some of these spiritual concepts into the way that we think about how it, what it means to work with people.

Emma: 23:12

Oh, undoubtedly. Absolutely. 100%. Yeah. You know, we're both passionate about this. The,

Tatiana: 23:18

Very much so.

Emma: 23:19

the, the fusion of science and spirituality. Um, and understanding that we are whole beings and to be able to work with people or work on ourselves at all levels of our being. Absolutely. There are powerful benefits in that rather than ignoring one aspect of our being. Definitely for sure. And, and I feel that that is, that is the future. That is the way our industry is evolving. Um, but you know, who knows how long, how long that will take, who knows what the tipping point will be. Um, maybe it's more conversations like this, maybe it's more, rather than keeping these conversations taboo, um, to be more open in it and to recognize actually maybe there are more of us in this space. And also to acknowledge, I read a statistic the other day that something like 85 percent of the global population is religious or spiritual. And so we're ignoring a big part of our clients needs as well. So it feels like it's, it's. It's going to happen. I just don't know when or how or what that will look like.

Tatiana: 24:36

I know. I am still very hopeful it's going to happen in our lifetime. Because there are many who are taking those strides, aren't there? Like, you and I know of some of the amazing work that Peter Stapleton's been doing with EFT, for example. And not that long ago, that was considered woo woo. And now it's, it's amassed a body of evidence. That shows it's got clinical validity. And so I think once all it takes is one or two people to be interested in and focused in exploring these things more, more deeply within that lens of science to, to be able to start creating a path forward for these things being more integrated. I believe.

Emma: 25:19

Yeah, for sure. And I know that it's different in different cultures and different countries. In the state, in the states, for example, you can do a spiritual masters of a masters of spiritual psychology. So it's there. And, um, um, Uh, I had something else in my head, but it's gone now. Um, oh yes, uh, the psychiatry profession. There is a model in the psychiatry profession. You know, it used to be the biopsychosocial model of, of mental health, but now there's a model biopsychosocial spiritual model of mental health. So, so it's happening. It's definitely happening.

Tatiana: 25:56

Oh, it never feels like there's so much excitement, because it does. It feels like it's, it's within reach. Like we'll be able to see it hopefully within our lifetime. Um, so I guess one last reflection from you, uh, that I'm curious about is if you had to pick one transformative aspect of embracing spirituality more fully, both as a, on a personal and a professional level, what would that aspect be for you, for you specifically?

Emma: 26:28

Initially, it was a profound sense of peace and sense that all is well. And that is, is evolving into a sense of Joy and magic and delight and wonder and awe that the world is a magical, wonderful, amazing place. Sure. I know there are lots of horrible things happening. Um, but when you know how to look for the signs and how to see the signs and when you can feel that viscerally in your body, that magic, and you see what unfolds, the more you follow the spiritual path, um, Yeah, it's made my life more peaceful, more joyful. More special. Yeah.

Tatiana: 27:17

Oh, how beautiful. Is there anything else that you feel like we, it's important to, to incorporate in this conversation or that would be of service to those listening?

Emma: 27:28

I would say if there's fear, don't, which we all have, you know, we're hardwired, we're hardwired to feel fear to keep us safe. And I still feel fear all the time when I'm stepping at the edge of my comfort zone. But if there's fear, don't let that hold you back. Find ways to work with the nervous system. Find people who won't judge you for whatever it is that you're afraid of. Find those safe spaces. spaces, find your tribe, find your communities and start to use your voice so that you can fully express who you were meant to be in this lifetime. Um, because it's the things that we don't do in life that we regret. It's, you know, the, the mistakes and the failings might be uncomfortable, but they're not as uncomfortable as the regret of not trying. So to, to live at the edge of your fear, to follow the heart's calling. If your heart is calling you to something. Do it.

Tatiana: 28:26

So true. So true. Thank you. And what would you recommend if you had to share with those listening a book, a spiritual book that they, for those who are curious about beginning their journey and who want to explore these concepts, what's a transformational book? book that you would recommend or one that really stands out for you. Like you started the talk, our conversation mentioning A New Earth. That may be the book, but there might be others.

Emma: 28:59

Yeah, so definitely anything by Eckhart Tolle and New Earth, The Power of Now, all of his books. Um, the most powerful teacher for me, my favorite teacher is Esther Hicks. So if you can find a book by her, she's a prolific writer, um, two of her most powerful titles are probably Ask and It Is Given or The Vortex. Um, if you're at the beginning of your journey, I would say they may be a little bit too woo woo, they may be a little bit too out there. So if you're starting, maybe start with Eckhart Tolle, if you're a bit further along and curious. I would say check out Esther Hicks. She's an incredible human. I love her so much. Um, so for sure her.

Tatiana: 29:40

Oh, how wonderful. Uh, and thank you so much. Again, this has been such a lovely conversation and can, well, where can people find what you've got to offer? Um, and work with you if they want to do that.

Emma: 29:55

sure. So they can just go to my website emmagray. net. They can find me on Insta emmagray. coaching. Um, they can look me up on Facebook. Feel free to reach out and connect with me. If you've got any questions or anywhere I can support you.

Tatiana: 30:10

Oh, how wonderful. I'll add all of those details in the show notes as well. Um, but yeah, Emma, thank you so much for giving me your time today and engaging in this conversation. I've really enjoyed our time together and I know that for those listening, there'll be a lot of nuggets of gold that they'll be able to take away to help them with the journey wherever they, they may be on that path. And yeah. So thank you so much everyone for listening. this week. I hope you all have a lovely week and I will see you all next time. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Integrated Wisdom. It is my sincere wish that today's episode may have intrigued and inspired you to reclaim your power and step into becoming more fully integrated spiritual beings. New episodes are published every Wednesday. And I hope you'll continue to join us as we dive deeper into what it means to live an integrated life. So if it feels aligned to you, I invite you to hit subscribe and share it with others who you feel may benefit too. You may also find me on Instagram at integrated underscore wisdom. Remember, each moment is an opportunity to embrace your divine potential and create a world that is more frequently inspired. So for now, stay connected, stay inspired and keep shining your light. Into the world.