Soulful Chats with Psychologist Poh Gan

In this month’s instalment of ‘Soulful Chats’ I am joined by my colleague, Psychologist Poh Gan.

In this heartwarming discussion, Poh describes the transformative power that Spirituality, through the study of Buddhism, has had on her life - including how her Spirituality ultimately led her to become a Psychologist.

You can find Poh on https://blossomingtrueself.com.au

Poh’s Book Recommendation: ‘Our Pristine Mind’ by Orygen Chowang

https://www.amazon.com.au/Our-Pristine-Mind-Orgyen-Chowang/dp/1611803276/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&dib_tag=se&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.7Wv0-yxkqwyqcesovKghlUrwQ3LbGJgnwOyjsvi-0k2m7ynWgCxe2mP5QWGxIjqYJR7we6Dv8Cb9hVMUfQxEv6ZMg70Gfp6BEaQIw1ZJVmbELJmA116Svecw7Jmn4V9OrUnWPTBxwdRQiKcP4pXIXq5x2DsSJ5N2ctl0eDfdfvFJWVXdT0CCry7QZtVojo2Ra_1ZaGB9CnKmyt4Hwy63mJh3msT3XfYlD-EKuKyqUhRTaPjnFZOXM9f4vqM9cm7_8lM8gl2fswBsegePP9KlZRovPZtHrbqlu0legtQa45I.olwqZkDdlUDX-gzwxdEQtPUcWSvlUiA9ghj0Jj_fezY&qid=1720965030&sr=8-1

Poh has a Four-week Bodhi Meditation Circle for Therapists starting in August:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C9Wv3hnNTGG/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Some of Poh’s other popular offerings can be found below:

 Free Daily Self-Care Ritual Planner for Busy Therapists here: https://blossomingtrueself.com.au/ritual-planner

Free Mini Guide to Declutter Your Mind and Find Inner Peace:

https://blossomingtrueself.com.au/free-download-for-mini-guide-

 Poh on Instagram @the.blossoming.therapists https://www.instagram.com/the.blossoming.therapists/

 Poh on Facebook 

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100092032200574

 Poh has a Free Webinar – Overcome Burnout: Proven Energy Management Strategies for Therapists coming soon on the 21st August 2024 (Wednesday) at 11 am (AWST). Follow Poh on Instagram/ Facebook to get the final details! 

Be sure to SHARE this episode to anyone you feel may be interested or benefit from this content.

And please don't forget to hit SUBSCRIBE to keep up to date with our episodes and give us a RATING below. ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

 You can now send me your comments or questions, to hello@integratedwisdom.com.au or you can also find me on Instagram  https://www.instagram.com/integrated_wisdom/

Intro and Outro music: Inspiring Morning by Playsound

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.

Transcript

Tatiana: 0:00

Welcome to the Integrated Wisdom Podcast. I am your host, Tatyana Da Silva. Join me as we discuss what it means to live an integrated life and explore ways for you to create a life filled with greater meaning, peace, and connection by integrating the wisdom of spirituality, psychology, Neuroscience, Epigenetics and Energy Psychology are hoped to empower you to create deeper and more loving connections with yourself and others, whilst also paving the way for humanity at large to be reimagined and inspired to become the very best version of itself. Welcome to the Integrative Wisdom Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me for yet another week. Today I have another one of my favorite monthly installments, uh, the soulful chats with some other peers and spiritually minded psychologists. And I am very excited today to be welcoming my, Dear friend and colleague Poh. Poh is an experienced educational and developmental psychologist and a board approved supervisor practicing in Perth, Western Australia. With over 16 years of experience in both the public and private sector, she has worked extensively with children, teenagers and adults facing various developmental and mental health challenges. She specializes in supporting neurodivergent individuals and their families using a systemic and affirming approach to help thrive and grow. Po practices contextual behavioral science, primarily using acceptance and commitment therapy and compassion focused therapy in her clinical work. Parallel to these, Po is a seasoned Mahayana Buddhist practitioner of humanity vehicle Buddhism with 20 years of meditation practice and volunteer work at a local temple. In the past two years, she has embraced integrating spirituality into her professional practice, combining contextual behavioral science, neuroscience, and spiritual wisdom in her coaching work. As the founder of the Blossoming Therapists, Po's life mission and purpose are to support heart led therapists and health professionals in breaking free from cycles of burnout and overwhelm. She helps them reconnect with their true selves and purpose, embody Bodhisattva's spirits and practices so that they can cultivate a balanced and fulfilling life while serving and supporting others with greater ease and energy. Just from that bio alone, you can see why she's the perfect person to have on this podcast. So happy to have you here, Po.

Poh: 2:45

Thank you, Tatjana. I was so, heartwarming to, like, hear you talking about my bio. Reading it out loud makes it all, like, real. Yeah.

Tatiana: 2:57

And, you know, obviously that's one thing that's drawn us together as we've been on this journey of trying to embody our missions and build businesses that feel aligned with what we feel our purpose is. And we both have this drive to integrate spirituality more fully into our work, into our practice, into guiding people to navigate life more easily. I was so excited to have this conversation with you and I'm sure our listeners are going to love hearing everything that you have to say.

Poh: 3:24

Yes. I'm very excited to be here as well. Thank you for inviting me.

Tatiana: 3:29

Nice. My pleasure. So why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself?

Poh: 3:33

Yes. I guess like I'm in the process of incorporating the different parts of me in the spirituality and also my experience in psychology to, to help other therapists to overcome the burnout and to embody more spirituality and practices to help them to thrive in supporting other people so that they don't feel burned out so that they can continue supporting other people. And I can see there's great benefits in incorporating both sides. The ideas and practices and outside of work, I am a mother of two children. Yes. So age eight and 11. Yes.

Tatiana: 4:20

so that's keeping you busy too.

Poh: 4:21

Yes, it's definitely. Parenting is another spiritual journey in itself.

Tatiana: 4:27

Absolutely is. Yeah, I think actually that's such a great point. We could have a whole conversation about this. Couldn't we? I think when I had Tricia, who, you know, as well, Tricia Woods she, she brought up her own. Her spiritual journey really kind of became enhanced with motherhood. And so it's interesting to see you, you raised that same point. Maybe we can have an episode where we have all of you guys, all of you coming together and we can talk about that specifically. going through the motherhood journey probably could could benefit so much from, from that lens.

Poh: 5:01

And in fact, My previous ideas actually started with like working with other mothers and Asian mothers. And, and I think like from, from there that evolve into wanting to support other therapists, uh, who may be a mother as well. And it's just the juggle of the different roles and demands in your life while still wanting to practice as a spiritual minded person. And, and I think with the juggles of the different challenges actually pushes us to go within and, you know, and actually finding that peace and practicing that spirituality actually help us to navigate and like handle those challenges better. And

Tatiana: 5:46

So I think that's a really nice segue into asking you what first sparked your interest in spirituality?

Poh: 5:54

I actually thought about that. And I realized that have a, after I had that deep think about it, I actually he's a very spiritual person from since young And I think we, we talk about that in the retreat when we met each other face to face that my mother was a fairly spiritual person as well. And she influenced me just being exposed to different, like, spiritual practices in in Malaysia. I grew up in Malaysia, and And I guess I was always curious about like, you know, the life's meanings and along with the challenges in my childhood. And I've always been like searching if you know what I mean. And, and in year six, I could remember like, you know, these attending a Buddhist camp. And, and I was just like, you know, signing up to to, to, to go with my friends. But then that's where in one of the small group discussion, this mentor she was guiding one of my friends, talking about like, you know, this friend has a difficult relationship with her parents. And she was like talking about how angry she was with her parents. And then this mentor did not just say about, How you know, she, she acknowledged that, but she also said this you know, did you notice that like, when you're talking about your parents, how many I, how many sentences starts with I, and then she talked about like these I and ego and, but like, I, I just like from there on, I was just a bit amazed about like, questions and like, you know, philosophy and spirituality from, from there and in high school I continue to get involved in Buddhist activities and, and learning, but more from a theory perspective or like learning as a philosophy and it is not until After, when I came over to Australia, where I met my master that I practicing and learning from her that that really kind of like brought a lot of the seeds in me perhaps it's I guess affinity from the past life. If I. Would be open to to talk about like, you know, my beliefs in spirituality. Yeah.

Tatiana: 8:28

Oh, wow. That's amazing.

Poh: 8:30

Yeah. It is it feels like it, it's a connection where like, that I really resonate with the teachings and also like, wanting to follow her footsteps to, to bring To bring about, uh, greater liberation from, like, suffering that move me in my heart, yeah.

Tatiana: 8:57

Yeah. I, I, you know, I feel that so strongly as well, Po, like I'm often saying that guiding people towards connecting with their spiritual essence is the most tangible way we can guide them towards transcending suffering,

Poh: 9:12

yeah, yeah, I

Tatiana: 9:13

And at the moment there's so much suffering

Poh: 9:16

yeah. Yeah.

Tatiana: 9:17

Yeah.

Poh: 9:17

And, and I guess like with that sparks of when I was younger and one of the mentors that I, I work with and he suggested like, Oh, you're so interested in like, you know, human mind and like Buddhism, and maybe you'll be interested to study psychology. And that's where like, you know, him talking about that and like and my interests and. that actually drove me to study psychology. So I don't know which one comes first and I felt like, Oh, actually maybe it was the, the, the spirituality that started first that drove, drove me to study psychology and then and. And they just can't be separated.

Tatiana: 10:04

100 percent agree. And what a beautiful illustration of that, right? That it, the, the spiritual led you to, to study the psychological aspects of people. Yeah. That's wonderful.

Poh: 10:17

Hmm.

Tatiana: 10:18

So let me ask you then, what spiritual concepts did you first begin your exploration journey with?

Poh: 10:24

Like, I, I feel like there, there are so many different parts that like, you know, as Buddhism, as a philosophy of is very different. Yeah. spiritual concepts that I embrace and I honor that like different people will have different like spiritual beliefs. And and I guess like one of the most profound concepts that I find is that everyone on earth, like, you know, Whether it is human beings or spiritual beings or animals or even like the whole multiverse, if I were to be geeky and really spiritual about this that we have this fundamental goodness or spiritual essence or pure nature in us, in every one of us, that they can be at peace and enlightened just like Buddha, like in the spiritual traditions. It is because of the the ego and the conditioning that they cannot see their true nature and true potential. But like these pristine awareness is already within each and every one of us. I think that really resonate with me that like, Oh, if we can quiet our thinking mind and to connect with this pure essence in us, that we can feel very at peace and connected with ourself. And that's where in my coaching work, I talk about the true self and that true essence of who we are as. A person that is calm and compassionate and wise. And in, and in another you know, way I can see other people talking about the higher self or the inner knowing. And that is the most important spiritual concepts that I think that, is it

Tatiana: 12:21

Absolutely. And again, it translates so well into the psychological, doesn't it? Like I know that you're an ACT practitioner as am I, and I, you know, when we talk about higher self and we talk about the observer self, we're talking about the same

Poh: 12:35

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and I think like, when I learn about, uh, that in my spiritual practices, and then when I started to encounter ACT and it's like, Oh, this is like, the same thing that they're talking about and just have a different way of accessing to it. Yeah. And, and I think I think sometimes I realized that a lot of some of the practitioners or trainers, they might say that like, Oh, these concepts come from the spiritual traditions, but they don't really want it to acknowledge some of them. I kind of like teach. That part of the practice and, you know, just talking about the scientific part, which kind of like, I don't know, there's like a break, breaking point that they don't really connect. But if we were to practice both sides, the science part, the scientific part, and also the spiritual part, I feel like it will actually have more profound impact.

Tatiana: 13:46

Oh, 100%. I think the biggest loss to psychology, and we've spoken about this, I think as well, is that in the, in the hunger to be taken seriously as a science, it disconnected from its soul essence, right? Like that's the, the root word what psychology means, study of the soul,

Poh: 14:04

yes, yes, yes, yes,

Tatiana: 14:07

And we lost sight of that because we wanted to be taken seriously as scientists. But there's no separation, right? I believe this. And I'm sure you agree that science, when we discover new things in the universe, in nature, we're discovering the spiritual truth of life, right? Like.

Poh: 14:25

yeah,

Tatiana: 14:26

It's not either or.

Poh: 14:27

yeah. And I, at the very beginning of my learning in psychology I find that I have to be more scientific and like, you know, some of the spiritual beliefs that I learned in Buddhism because it can't be proved in the science experiments or like, you know, in the randomized controlled trials and, and that it's not something that you can tell other people and you have to kind of like, you know, keep it to yourself and like, you know, don't, don't show it, don't, don't talk about it because that's not, you know, evidence based and And I think like one of the things like, you know, talking about like, this science and the spirituality one of the things that I think in my master years, I really wanted to talk about like mindfulness and this is back in 2005 and 2006. I really wanted to use that as my thesis and research. But I remember going to my supervisor and wanting to search for, uh, a supervisor that can supervise me. And I really wanted to talk about that, but like back then at my university the supervisor or lecturer said like, it's. It is perhaps you should do something else, not this. And so like it was at the time, perhaps in Perth it was not very popular and it was only like, you know, I remember, you know, according to all of these articles and the things that I was searching for and I wanted to talk about that. But it was kind of like met with rejection. So like it was then like, you know, one of the things that I feel like, Oh, I need to hide, I need to hide, but to see act and, you know, being, becoming more popular and that I can have a valid space to, to, to practice and, and, and use that language and scientific language to, to, to work with my clients, I think.

Tatiana: 16:32

Yes.

Poh: 16:33

That has been uh, a blessing. Yeah.

Tatiana: 16:37

Oh, wow.

Poh: 16:38

Yeah.

Tatiana: 16:38

But I think that's really interesting that you're starting to talk about the, the fears around incorporating the, the two, right, psychology and science and how there is this pressure from our community, particularly, I think mostly in Australia, but there is this pressure that we should be very, like, these two things should be very separate. So. In acknowledging that you felt some of that fear and you felt some of that pressure, how did you override it? Because now we're here, we're having conversations about this, running a program very soon where you're incorporating the spiritual element. So obviously you've been working on like overcoming that fear and I'd love to hear how you did it.

Poh: 17:22

mm.

Tatiana: 17:22

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm

Poh: 17:25

I think, I think this is, uh, a really recent thing that I decided to do both together. And it's actually quite surprising, you know, like, I think two years ago last year when I met working, when I started working with my coach and Hayley and Emma and, and, and doing this spiritual this future self exercise, I think that probably is one of the things that like, you know, pull me out of like, brought out the spiritual side of me. So I sign up for these like, you know, online program creation, uh, for therapist incubator program. And I thought that I was going to. Deliver a program about neurodiversity affirming practices and supporting children and or like parents with emotion regulation. But when I did that future self, uh, meditation exercises, this part of me just came out so strongly about a spiritual person. And I think like the, the seeds. inside me and that drive inside me were always there and it's just kind of like brought into consciousness and that, and in, in that, in that meditation practice My future self saying that like, you know, what you need, it's already within you, you have what it takes. And, and, and when I align myself to that future self of wanting to be a bodhisattva to be so these bodhisattva that I'm talking about is this a practitioner that have been practicing within themselves to see that spiritual essence themself and and wanting to to do the same thing to supporting other people to see their true essence and that true nature and that part of me just wanting to be wanting this fearful mind, this thinking mind that I've been hiding and hiding to say that like, you know, it's okay, you know, you, you need to step up so that like you are able to reach more people and to, to connect with people. their spiritual self, and that will transcend a lot of the suffering. And I see myself, and, and before I wanted to do all of that, I was really quite trapped in my thinking mind, even though I've been practicing. But because they are so different, it's kind of like parallel line and it felt like it can't be quite integrated. And I think at the time I was also quite burnt out as well. And I stopped practicing my spiritual practices and meditation because I was like really just busy trying to to do a lot of things that I think is important and, but it doesn't really it doesn't really. Resonate with what I wanted to be as a person But I wanted to have more and I wanted to see a greater contribution that goes beyond this lifetime. And, and I think. And maybe that's the main driver why I am so fearlessly, fearlessly you know, wanting to speak about this, wanting to talk about this and wanting to bring about this to share with other people. And I think that passion drives me to break through those fears. and wanting to hide. And there are times when I still wanted to hide. But I was just keep connecting to, to, to that essence and connecting to that future self. And it brings me like back to Yes, I do this because of my mission. I do this because I can see a bigger picture of Humankind and that's what I wanted to do.

Tatiana: 21:48

Yes. Connecting with your essence and the truth of your life purpose has given you that courage.

Poh: 21:54

Yes, yes, yes, yeah,

Tatiana: 21:58

It's so beautiful because then you can embody that for others too, right? You can role model that. Yeah.

Poh: 22:06

going through that journey actually makes, makes me realize that like, I'm not the only one that felt Like that. And, and, and perhaps a lot of the other therapists have always felt like they need to high or, or perhaps they're pursuing something that they think is important, but perhaps if they really quiet down and, and connecting with themselves, and perhaps they might see the need. Differently, and maybe that, that will help them to drive, uh, them to do something and, and get them out of that cycle of burnout. Just like how I did with myself. Yeah.

Tatiana: 22:50

And I, I mean, I'm not, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this Poh because I've, a few other people who I've had on the podcast and we've spoken about. Burnout and sustainable living. One of the thing that keeps coming up is this idea that one of the contributors to burnout is that we're not living authentically,

Poh: 23:08

Mm

Tatiana: 23:09

right? And so in having to hide this very core aspect of who we are, our spiritual essence in our work actually makes the work much more draining than it would be otherwise, if we could incorporate it all. What do you feel? What are your thoughts on that? Does that resonate for you too?

Poh: 23:25

Yes. Definitely. And, and I think, and I definitely see myself being more authentic and like talking a little bit more about and wanting to like bring some of the discussion because I think I'm okay with it and I then have more of these inviting. presence for them to talk about. And somehow strangely and perhaps a synchronicity that like I started like even my assisting clients wanting to talk about spirituality and like they are on purpose and, and, And I could recall one of these clients that I've been supporting for some time, but because of my own journey that he started talking about that and about like, you know, his personal purpose and vision and, and what he wanted to do. And, and by me being able to hold that space for him, and he came to his own conclusion about his own purpose. And he, He was quite brave and, you know, embracing that. And, and making steps and even move like interstate to like pursue his dream and, and me embodying that presence and more proudly embodying that presence actually bring perhaps like, you know, that benefits actually it's felt and that felt sense that presence in the therapy is actually benefiting both Me and my clients.

Tatiana: 25:01

Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that amazing? I mean, that's such a beautiful illustration as well of that exchange that happens in a therapeutic relationship, right? Like yes, we're helping them, but then sometimes we gain things from those exchanges as well.

Poh: 25:17

yeah. Yeah. And

Tatiana: 25:19

so beautiful.

Poh: 25:19

yeah, and I guess like, to, to come back to your questions about, you know, like ask not hiding.

Tatiana: 25:27

Mm.

Poh: 25:28

I think that the, the discussion becomes richer because because we have been dodging, uh, not talking about it and we perhaps perhaps we can only go like to this this far when we are supporting them. But like, you know, if you are able to embrace that full spectrum of Spirituality or, you know, being seen as who we are as a whole person that actually brings them to be able to felt our authenticity

Tatiana: 26:04

Yes.

Poh: 26:06

and, and that allows them to be who they are as well.

Tatiana: 26:11

100%. Yeah. Again, it's that role modeling, right? Like paving the way for other people. Yeah. It's beautiful. So what are some of the benefits that you have found about incorporating spirituality into your life On that personal level? Yes.

Poh: 26:28

I guess I've been more careful and, and I guess like, by me practicing a little bit more and connecting more to these Open spaciousness, my observing self and, and in, in that part of me. And, and I think like in the past I've been quite, uh, high achiever was quite a perfectionistic thinking and perhaps, self identified ADHD, uh, uh, that is kind of like a, my compensation strategies to be a neurodivergent that I think in the past I've been working too hard to, to protect this part of me. And I think like it through the spiritual practices and the meditation is actually allowing me to be more compassionate towards myself. And, and also to to, I don't know. Like it felt like, you know, when I'm at this really core sense of who I am some of these limiting beliefs doesn't really bother me as much. And I was able to kind of like, I'd recognize them. But I don't let them make decisions for me and they kind of can kind of like drop very quickly. I can drop them very quickly, more so compared to the past when I'm anchored in this pristine awareness. So I, I feel that like, you know, it, it has. Allowed me to feel more restful and, and less drained by the thinking mind that I have been operating in the past but more so like really grounded and present here. And I think like, that's where a lot of the energy drives me now come from here and not in the, the past. The small mind of like compensation, like, Oh, I need to do more. I need to do more because I'm not good enough and flipping that to a more grounded sense of who I am as a person

Tatiana: 28:45

Yes.

Poh: 28:46

and that

Tatiana: 28:46

More heart.

Poh: 28:47

helps me to, to do more things.

Tatiana: 28:51

Yes.

Poh: 28:51

not in a burnout way, not in a like, you know, I need to prove myself and, but I'm already whole to begin with. So I think that not just in theory understanding, but more in the practical sense of embodiment sense that felt sense of who I am that really yeah, I think like it's a paradigm shift for, is a, a flip of lens. Maybe. Yeah.

Tatiana: 29:21

I just want to emphasize what you just said then, because that was so beautiful. This concept of moving from feeling like you're not good enough and that you need to prove yourself to having this certainty, no, you are enough, right? You're already whole or the words that you use, I'm already whole. And that, that's so true in our essence, in our soul essence, we're whole. And I think that's, you've, you spoke about that really, really well.

Poh: 29:47

Oh, thank you. Yeah. And I think like when I'm in that sense, that, that really connected way and I really love talking about this and I really want to talk about this. I really wanted to share with other people and, and let them have a bit of that joy and And, and that groundedness and, and, and I think that really drives me to wanting to like speak up and use my voice. Whereas before that I will be like, you know, Oh no, I can't talk about this. And that is more from the thinking that is limiting myself.

Tatiana: 30:27

Yeah. Wow. That's so powerful on a personal level. What about professionally? How do you feel that integrating that spirituality component has enhanced your professional or psychological practice?

Poh: 30:41

I guess like, this embodied presence of who I am as a person and, and feel that groundedness within myself and showing up as this seems to be more of it brings a different energy in the, in the room. And,

Tatiana: 31:00

Mm

Poh: 31:01

and, and I feel that like I can truly listen. I can truly be fully present and

Tatiana: 31:09

hmm.

Poh: 31:10

with my, uh, clients and. And I think they, they would feel that as well. And, and brewing, I think like that being fully present in this pristine awareness. And I think like there is another part of like the, the spiritual concepts that that, uh, that I think it's quite. Empowering is that the person in front of me shares that wholeness and, and, and does share humanity that like this person in front of me and me, and are troubled by the same thing, like troubled by the same limiting beliefs uh, all the conditioning that they are under. And. And it, I think it brings that really full essence of compassion and empathy

Tatiana: 32:08

Mm

Poh: 32:08

to be in the room, holding these persons in mind in a really holistic and like full, uh, way that, that allows that person to heal and, and for them to connect with their essence. That's all. Yeah. They are pristine awareness. Actually they do the work themself and they heal that part of the the wounds themself rather than me being the person that change. But I, I, I'm just creating that space for them to do that work to see for their self energy or their true nature to shine through. So I think. That in itself creates a really empowering sense for the clients

Tatiana: 33:01

Yes,

Poh: 33:01

find out on power. It was not me, but I'm only like an agent to support them, to connect with that part of themself. I don't know. It doesn't make sense.

Tatiana: 33:13

no, it makes sense. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Poh: 33:16

Yeah.

Tatiana: 33:17

It is, it's, it's helping them also connect with that essence, right. And yeah, and be led from that place, which is what allows them to then navigate life with more ease. And like you said, connect with that shared humanity for other people, because that's the human experience, right? Like we all go through different, similar things in our own ways. The S, the things are the same. And we can lose sight of that sometimes and feel really lonely in our suffering or in our pain.

Poh: 33:44

Mm. Mm.

Tatiana: 33:46

and I, that's, that's very true.

Poh: 33:48

Yeah. So I think I, I, I'm operating less of a, like the expert model, but more so with that share humanity and,

Tatiana: 33:59

Yes.

Poh: 34:00

And And, and to trust that they have that, uh, in the resources within themselves to, to make changes and to, to, to relate differently to their pain, their suffering. I think I like to think that like my clients feel that presence and, and, and that the impact is, is, is there and like,

Tatiana: 34:27

I have no doubt that's the case because your genuine nature comes through so clearly,

Poh: 34:32

Oh, thank, mm,

Tatiana: 34:34

You know, and people connect with that. I think that itself is very healing.

Poh: 34:38

mm,

Tatiana: 34:39

So, yeah, I have no doubt.

Poh: 34:41

thank you. Mm

Tatiana: 34:43

So on that, what value or benefit do you see for psychologists and therapists in particular to embrace their spiritual selves or at least be a little bit more curious about spirituality? Yeah.

Poh: 34:56

I think like what we have talked about before that by. Embodying that our own like true spiritual essence and the discussion and the space that we hold for our clients will be a stronger presence and will be, will be allowing for like greater healing that happen in the client and also the therapeutic alliance that we have with the clients will be stronger. And I think there are actually a lot of the, a lot of the things that are not yet being proven in the scientific study. And, and I guess like if. We are more open to the discussion. The clients are, uh, perhaps the clients might feel the same way. You know, like if we, uh, find a need to hide and not talk about it imagine what our clients might be feeling that, oh, this is not something that we can talk with therapists. Maybe that's what they're thinking. But if the clients are. If we are open and curious, then they, they may feel like they have this permission to talk about how they're connected with greater beings or like the universe or their spiritual beliefs as well. And I see that like when they are connected to their spirituality and sometimes it helps them to get through the challenges in their life. And with greater strength and with greater connection and this this commitment and this devotion in themselves that they can get through things. Yeah, I think by us practicing more and being more aligned to our, uh, spiritual self we're no longer operating on that conditioned thinking mind perhaps when we are no longer being limited by our thinking mind that's where like, there's more potential that could be tapped into that we might not yet able to prove. In the scientific study

Tatiana: 37:19

not yet, but soon. Mm,

Poh: 37:24

but not yet. But it doesn't mean that it's not there. And, and I think and we can sense it, we can feel it

Tatiana: 37:32

mm,

Poh: 37:33

And, and, and it allows us to be more intuitive. I have such trust in myself. like if I were to compare myself to when I first practiced as a psychologist and versus where I am now. I think I have to prepare, you know, script by script, words by words, like, you know, what are the right thing to say But whereas now I kind of like being in that that space where I'm really anchored and like some of those things just come through and it just flows and I just know the right thing to say and, and the right actions to take and, and that embodied sense. Actually, I think in neuroscience, it says that like, you know, when you are feeling these and groundedness and our presence can actually impact and co regulating with our clients. And they, they feel anchored, they feel grounded as well in that space.

Tatiana: 38:40

Yes,

Poh: 38:41

know, I feel that like that, that is something that is perhaps less able to be demonstrated in the, evidence based study.

Tatiana: 38:52

Yes.

Poh: 38:53

but we feel it we feel the energy and, and often like a client walks away feeling different, not because of the words that we say, but the presence that we embody in, in the sessions.

Tatiana: 39:09

Absolutely.

Poh: 39:10

Yeah.

Tatiana: 39:11

Yeah. It's that intangible, right? Which it is, it's what makes it so hard to measure. Yeah, but maybe, I think there will come a day when they'll be able to measure it, but in the right way. I think at the moment there's limitations to the way that we approach these things, which makes it feel like it's impossible to, Asia, but it's just approaching it from the wrong place and in the, with the wrong tools. Think that's going to change with time, but that's, yeah, that's so beautiful. Again, it's, it just highlights that the power of the therapeutic relationship and how this spiritual concept or that presence as you're talking about it it just maximizes the healing potential

Poh: 39:51

Yeah. I like the way that you put it. Yes. I like it. It's, it's like enhancing it.

Tatiana: 39:56

This.

Poh: 39:57

yeah. And the techniques that you use is powerfully presented because you are fully present with the person. Person in front of you? Mm

Tatiana: 40:07

absolutely. Who was it that said, was it Carl Jung that said, learn all the, all the theories, learn all the techniques, but when you're in the room with another human being, just be a human being. I'm botching the quote, but it was something along those lines.

Poh: 40:24

I understand exactly what you mean. Yes.

Tatiana: 40:28

It's, yeah, it's, that's the essence of what that's talking about, isn't it? What's, I guess we're in a final reflection. Then if you had to pick one transformative aspect of embracing spirituality more fully. Both on that personal and a professional level, what aspect would that be for you of all the things we've spoken about? What do you think is that one really gold nugget of

Poh: 40:52

Uhhuh.

Tatiana: 40:53

potential?

Poh: 40:55

I guess it will have to come back to, you know, that what my future self said to me, you know, like what you have is. what you need is already within you. I think we often, you know, or perhaps the society in some way has kind of conditioned us to kind of like pursue outwardly and thinking that maybe we need to like, you know, just learn the next techniques and the next therapeutic uh, strategies. But I, I feel like we have so much in here that we

Tatiana: 41:32

Yes.

Poh: 41:33

have not spent enough time to cultivate and explore within us and what that could be and, and how by us going in within and find that stillness and stability and that who we are as in essence By doing that, perhaps the whole transformation of finding who we are as a person and bringing that out and the whole outlook and perspective and the way that you approach therapy or like in the personal level and how you interact with other people and relationships and how your parent and all of that, that, that The need for control, might drop, and the need to impress might drop, the need to please might drop, and you just feel whole within you. And I think that's the, that's something that that's something that you, you can't get in the material sense. And no matter how, how much you get from the material, physical world, that is not something that you can get from here. I think that certainty and that, is that called conviction or like, you know, that, that's That knowing that knowing brings, brings so much abundance and bring so much ease and, and, and peace. And that is not something that other people can get, give you, but you can have it in within you. And with that strong core and you can go about and like deal with any challenges in your life. And, and you'll be able to get through, and you will be able to go about doing whatever mission and purpose that you are here to do, but in a very strong fearless, uh, way. Yeah, so I think that is the most important thing.

Tatiana: 43:44

Yes, I beautifully said, and so I have this little ritual where I always get my guests to recommend a transformational spiritual book. That obviously. Those who are curious to explore spirituality a little bit more or are looking for a place to begin, they can start with that. So from your own experiences, what would be a book that you feel would be, uh, really impactful

Poh: 44:20

Yeah, so I have two books and I think one of them is the The book from the Humanity Vehicle Buddhism about teacup is not a teacup But I think the book is not widely available to to Like, it's not something that you can purchase on Amazon but it's free for distribution in the temple, but, and I guess like for your audience, it might not be, uh, widely available. But this book about our pristine mind and a practical guide to unconditional happiness by Organ Chowan

Tatiana: 45:03

Mm

Poh: 45:04

it brings about that essence of who we are as a person and to talk about the different levels of the the mind and consciousness. I think that is a great place to start cultivating

Tatiana: 45:19

Oh, beautiful. Uh huh. I'll include this a link to that book in the show notes for anyone who's interested in grabbing a copy. My, my library of books to read just keeps expanding.

Poh: 45:33

Yes.

Tatiana: 45:33

going on my library as well. That's going on my list.

Poh: 45:36

Yeah. Yeah. We all buy too many books, Isabel, and I just need that time to actually read, to find

Tatiana: 45:45

I sometimes dream about retirement just so I can have the time to read my books.

Poh: 45:50

Yes.

Tatiana: 45:51

But there's way too much work to be done first. But, you know, it was so lovely to have you here today, Poh. I've really enjoyed our conversations. I love your unique perspective on spirituality and your journey with it. And how you've been incorporating it into your practice so beautifully. I know that you have uh, a program coming up and a meditation circle coming up. So why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about that for anyone who's interested in doing some work with you?

Poh: 46:17

Yeah. So in mid July, I'll be starting a four week Bodhi meditation circle for therapists interested in Buddhism and wanting to deepen their practices and understanding about pristine awareness and, and Buddha nature and also like practically just practicing We are too busy in our practices and in our day to day life that we find it hard to find time. So by bringing a group of therapists together, we can discuss about our insight and our understanding in our cultivation and also how we practice in our therapy and practicing. The spiritual practices together the meditation. And so coming up in July, end of July or mid August, I will be organizing a free webinar about how, uh, therapists can manage the energy effectively By incorporating not just physical energy, emotional energy and mental energy, but also spiritual energy and so that we can kind of top up and connecting to, uh, what we've been talking about the, uh, the essence of who we are

Tatiana: 47:34

Yeah.

Poh: 47:35

In a way to be a sustainable, uh, therapist, work life balance and, and that, and, and hopefully in, in mid August, I'll be launching my eight weeks program for therapist. Yeah.

Tatiana: 47:52

fantastic. So I'll add to the show notes, links to your meditation circle to your upcoming webinar as well on your website. So people can look it up and learn a little bit more about what you're doing and sign up if they're interested. But again, Paul, I just wanted to say thank you so much for agreeing to have this conversation with me. It's been, it's been lovely. I've enjoyed every second. Uh, and if you have any final thoughts.

Poh: 48:20

Yeah. Thank you so much for inviting me Tatiana, you've been really, really generous and, and I think like seeing you finding your voice and, and talking about your spiritual journey, actually really, I wanted to say how much this platform and how you show up actually really inspired me. to show up the way I am as well. So I just wanted to share that with you, that deep gratitude I have for you having this platform to talk about spirituality and for therapists. And thank you.

Tatiana: 48:57

No, thank you. I appreciate you and appreciate those kind words. Thank you. I think we're all learning from each other, right? Like it, it helps to have more and more people coming together that are walking the same path and supporting each other to do so. So yeah, I'm very grateful to be meeting more and more spiritual psychs like you.

Poh: 49:16

Thank you.

Tatiana: 49:17

so I guess that's it for today. Thank you so much for those of you who listened, To this episode, it's a long one today. And I'm sure you've been, you'll get so much value from what we've been talking through and I hope you all have a lovely week and I will see you all next time.

Poh: 49:35

Thank you. Bye.

Tatiana: 49:37

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Integrated Wisdom. It is my sincere wish that today's episode may have intrigued and inspired you to reclaim your power and step into becoming more fully integrated spiritual beings. New episodes are published every second Wednesday and I hope you'll continue to join us as we dive deeper into what it means to live an integrated life. So if it feels aligned to you, I invite you to hit subscribe and share it with others who you feel may benefit too. You may also find me on Instagram at integrated underscore wisdom. Remember each moment is an opportunity to embrace your divine potential and create a world that is more frequently inspired. So for now, stay connected, stay inspired and keep shining your light into the world.