Shoplifting, addiction, and dysfunctional diversion programs: understanding retail theft in California

This week on Table Talk we dive into the issue of retail theft in California. I talk with Sacramento County Sheriff Jim Cooper about how we enforce and prosecute retail crime, and with California Retailers Association President Rachel Michelin about how retailers are responding.

Transcript

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0:00  
As long as you stay below $950, you can go steal and get caught, you know, 1520 times in one day, and you cannot combine it. So the most you will get is a citation. And that's it.

0:12  
If I ever had a problem with alcohol, and I can continue to go into a store every day and steal a couple 100 bucks in alcohol and never be held accountable, and why am I ever going to want to choose going into a diversion program police

0:34  
This is a retail decision. They talk about how big their losses are all the time. We're losing billions of dollars. We're closing stores, yet they do nothing to stem the tide of shoplifters.

0:52  
Welcome back to Table Talk, this is Vivian and I'm here with Steve, how're you doing? Today we're talking about retail theft and retail crime and everything that's going on with that in the state of California. 

1:04  
And it's a big issue, I think people are seeing a lot more about it in the news. Of course, we had that terrible, tragic incident in San Francisco where a security guard actually ended up shooting someone who was shoplifting seemingly completely out of what's appropriate in that circumstance. But it's a problem, big and small. And we're going to talk to two of the big dogs on this subject. Rachel Michelin who's the head of the retailer's big lobbying organization in Sacramento, representing the big dogs and retailing, and Sheriff Jim Cooper of Sacramento, who has been fighting on this issue, not just fighting the criminals, but fighting the retailers, and his ability to enforce the law keep people safe.

1:47  
Yeah. And it's really about going into stores these days, what people are expecting to encounter what they do encounter when things like people are shoplifting or even organized retail crime happens right in front of your eyes or in front of your eyes on social media even, which is something that we see a lot. So how safe are people feeling in stores

2:07  
and the future of retail? What does this mean going forward? So it's, it's not just the holiday season issue? It's, it seems to be a year round problem. And we're gonna explore it here. I'm here with Rachel Michelin, who is the president of the California Retailers Association. Rachel, thank you very much for joining this conversation.

2:27  
Thanks for having me, Senator.

2:29  
So tell folks, what the heck is the California Retailers Association? And what do you do?

2:36  
So we are the trade association to represent the retail industry in the state of California. So we represent both national brands, and also our small independent retailers from throughout the state of California. We advocate to them before the state legislature, the governor's administration and local elected boards across the state of California.

2:56  
And the issue of retail theft is not new. It's probably been around as long as a commercial store has been selling products. But it has become a bigger issue. Would you say? That's Yes, it's a bigger issue and for your your community?

3:11  
Yeah, I do. I think it is, it's expanded a lot. I think part of it too, is related to the fact that now everyone walks into a store with a camera. So we're seeing it a lot more before we used to have folks coming in and maybe shoving this product under their their sweaters or their jacket. But now we're seeing it more brazen. And it really is impacting both our large national brands, but particularly our small, independent retailers.

3:36  
And why do you think that problem has gotten worse? And I think there's a lot of

3:40  
reasons for it. I definitely think that some policy changes at the state level has impacted that I think the perception that folks will not be held accountable for the behavior has fed into this, I do think a lot of it is that we have seen these videos popping up. I mean, almost every day, you're gonna see a new video of someone going into a store and stealing. I think that's impacted as well. I do think that we tellers are a little bit more sensitive to branding. So it's a little bit difficult for them to necessarily do these big busts in their store that that we did before. So I think there's a lot of factors that are feeding into this increase. And but it's certainly something that we're trying to work collaboratively with various stakeholders, including the legislature and the governor's office and local elected officials on finding solutions to the problem.

4:29  
So let's break down some of those issues. One of them that you mentioned was law changes that have contributed to it. Can you can you elaborate a little bit more on that.

4:38  
So I think one of the challenges was in 2014, we did pass Proposition 47 in California and for us, one of the big issues is dealing specifically to the impacts on retail theft. And you know, while we increase the threshold at $950, which to me is not really the issue. The issue is we took away the ability for petty effort prior, meaning that before Prop 47, people who were repeat offenders were being held accountable for that. Now it's stacking of misdemeanors, which we know is not, they're not being prosecuted. So one of the things we've pushed in the legislature is to bring back that ability to bring petty theft with a prior because really, what we're finding is, the individuals coming into our stores, they're not one offs, they're not necessarily someone coming in and stealing a loaf of bread, baby formula, those types of things. These are folks that are repeat offenders that come in multiple times, sometimes multiple times a day, they hit various stores. And those are the individuals we really want to tighten these laws on. So they're held accountable, and hopefully deter it from happening in the future.

5:46  
And of course, prop 47, decriminalized theft from a felony to a misdemeanor. So and so therefore, law enforcement in from your point of view, is not enforcing the these misdemeanor charges as they used to as felony charges.

6:05  
Yeah, you know, I think it makes it a little bit more challenging, you know, to stop the misdemeanors and then bring them to prosecution in here. Let's just be candid, law enforcement is stretched thin. Our district attorneys are stretched thin, there's a lot of issues going on in our communities. But certainly, I think we need to figure out a way to deter this behavior from even even happening. And I think if people understand that there will be a consequence, and that consequence could result in a felony if you continue to repeatedly steal from stores, that might make a difference in curbing and the increase in retail theft that we're seeing.

6:39  
Now, proposition 47, wasn't passed by the legislature, it was passed by the voters of California, do you think they were misled in the campaign that advocated for decriminalizing these types of crimes? You know,

6:51  
I think at the time, you know, you know, this is my philosophy is whenever you make sweeping policy changes via a ballot initiative, there's always unintended consequences. And you know, prop 47, was a huge change in policy. And I think that when that happens, you're going to see some cracks in that, particularly as you enter in here, we're almost to the you know, 24, will be the 10th anniversary of prop 47. So I think what people thought was that by doing this more individuals would be going into diversion programs, which is what was promised under Prop 47. What I think has happened is that because we took away the carrot and the stick, so we don't have that, that stick anymore, we're not seeing people taking advantage of going into diversion program. So as an example, if I have a problem with alcohol, and I have an addiction to that, and I can continue to go into a store every day and steal a couple 100 bucks and alcohol and never be held accountable, then why am I ever going to want to choose going into a diversion program? You know, what we know is that sometimes folks need to stand before a judge and be held accountable and be told here, your options, you're going to spend some time in jail, or you can go get help from for your addiction. That's not happening right now in California. So I think when we look at some of the other issues facing our communities, as an example, we have people with drug addiction, who come into our stores, who still sell those items, use that funding to continue to buy drugs, we need to have that intervention point. And I think Californians with Prop 47, thought that they were going to get that with Prop 47, that by taking away that stick that was that felony, we're not seeing people take advantage of the diversion that they were promised. No

8:36  
prop 47 decriminalized about nine different crimes, most of which were drug crimes. So it seemed like the focus of the debate about Prop 47 is whether or not we went too far in the war on drugs. Do you think that the issue of retail theft was just ignored in the course of that campaign, and that the voters didn't really know what that meant in terms of how it's going to affect their neighborhood retail establishment?

9:02  
I do? I think it was it was a pretty broad proposition. You know, and I can't recall long time ago, how many other different initiatives are on the ballot at the time? And that's why, you know, I will say that we are very focused on working collaboratively with the legislature because the legislature does have the ability to do some fixes to prop 47 through the process and put something on the ballot. And that's why I want to make sure that as we have this conversation, because there is so much attention to this issue of retail theft, you know, both at an at a legislative level in the media, in our local communities, that we're doing it in a way that is really going to solve the problem and that's having diverse conversations, inclusive conversations with various stakeholders and making sure we get it right. Because that's what California is are expecting and that's what we're really focused on going into this new session when you're back in Sacramento in January.

9:57  
And what exactly would you propose to be up You're on the ballot to change prop 47. What would it say? I

10:03  
think the biggest one will be bringing back petty theft with the prior. And I think that is the biggest piece of it that if we can bring that back and really clamped down on the repeat offenders and make sure they understand there will be a consequence, if they continue to steal, I think that will go a long way to helping curb some of this happen, we're never going to solve it. There's not a silver bullet that suddenly we passed some policy change, and suddenly there's no retail theft. But I think that bringing that back could have, you know, will impact particularly in our for our small businesses and across our communities to curbing retail theft. One

10:40  
other way the legislature has engaged in this space is at the recommendation of the governor, we put millions of dollars aside for retail theft prevention grant programs, is that is that working? Is that does that make sense to you? We support her have it? Is it working? What's it doing?

10:56  
You mean the local law enforcement grants that he just did? Were a huge supporters because it was at our request. And we encourage the governor to do that when he reached out to us when we were looking at how do we curb, particularly at that time, the smash and grabs that we're seeing across the state of California, I do think is going to have an impact. And I'll tell you why I spend a lot of time going around the state talking with different stakeholders, and particularly talking with local law enforcement. And while we've always been very good at funding the organized retail Crime Task Forces that are run through the California Highway Patrol, one of the things that was missing was that funding and that grant ability for our local law enforcement professionals. And so we were really proud of the fact we advocated for that. We are we're hopeful that as we start seeing that take, take flight in our local communities, every different communities using it differently through their application process, I think we are going to see that having a positive impact on curbing retail theft in local communities.

11:57  
And that was a $242 million allocation in the state budget. That was went into effect July 1. So there's no way to assess it. Because the money is just getting out the door. Now. We're talking to Rachel Micheline, president of the California Retailers Association. Rachel, today I had a meeting with about 11 police chiefs from my area. And we talked about a number of issues including retail theft. And one of the concerns that a number of the chiefs brought up was that their ability to get if they go arrest somebody the ability to prosecute has been very limited. They talked about the Target store in Pittsburgh that's now slated to close. And one of the reasons cited was the retail theft that was happening in that area. And some of the other officers, police chiefs talked about the difficulties, the challenges they've had in cooperation from retailers in terms of they say it's a problem. They want to have accountability, they want to arrest the bad guys, but they're not getting the cooperation from retail stores. What would you say to that? You know,

13:03  
they're not wrong. I think that there is a lot of educating that needs to happen, both among retailers and among law enforcement district attorneys on what we can and cannot do under the current laws. I do think it is challenging for some of our bigger retailers. Because again, it goes back to the fact that everyone now has a camera in their hand. They're worried about these viral videos going out being misinterpreted, being changed or edited to, you know, really impact a retailer. I think the fear of lawsuits. You know, California is kind of known for a state where businesses are sued very often. And obviously, our big national brands are targets for that. So I think that, you know, one of the conversations I was having yesterday, actually, with the governor's staff, and then also with some of our member companies was how do we work more collaboratively? And I think the point of view, having that meeting with your local law enforcement or police chief was great. And I think we need to do more of that. One of the things the California Retailers Association does as well as we were in the California organized retail crime Association, where that is an opportunity for law enforcement, asset protection professionals, retailers to come together and share best practices. And we're working really hard to try to reduce those barriers so that there is a more of a comfort level of that engagement between retailers and between law enforcement. So it's definitely something we're working towards and something that we have to figure out a solution to.

14:34  
Sheriff Cooper of Sacramento tweeted on what used to be Twitter now x. Recently he said, quote, I can't make this stuff up. Recently, we tried to help target our property crimes. Detectives and sergeants were contacted numerous times by target to help them with shoplifters, mostly who are known transients, who coordinated with them and set up an operation with detectives in our north, I guess, enforcement team. At the briefing, we were told by their head of regional security We could not contact suspects inside the store. We could not handcuff suspects in the store. And if we arrested someone, they wanted us to process them outside behind the store in the rain, we were told they didn't want to create a scene inside the store and have people filming it, put it on social media. They didn't want negative press unbelievable, quote unquote, this is from Sheriff Cooper Sacramento, just reinforced the point you've already made, or would you want to enhance your response to that?

15:26  
You know, I, you know, I share the frustration with the sheriff. I know that he has been a, an advocate for changes around this issue for many years, both while he was in the legislature, and now in his role as Sheriff of Sacramento. You know, I do think it goes back to the fact that we need to do more educating and more collaboration, you know, part of the challenge is you can't arrest someone for shoplifting until they actually leave the store anyway, because they have to be out of the store with the stolen goods in hand before they can be arrested. Do you stop someone is there no checking out, you know, they could tell I'm sorry, I left that in my cart, I forgot to pay for it. So they do actually have to leave the store. But it is a balancing act between, you know, the customers, the law abiding citizens in the stores, wanting to go ahead and shop wanting to have that shopping experience and doing a sting operation of trying to nab the shoplifters. And I think that that's where we're really trying to have collaboration and conversations around how do we make that be successful in a way that protects our employees and our customers who are in that store.

16:34  
He went on to share another story where his deputies watched a lady with a shopping bag, go down and grab a bunch of stuff, and then take it immediately to customer service and ask for a refund. And then he saw that it wasn't about them leaving the store it was stealing and then asking for a refund at customer service. And the ends is comment by saying quote, we don't tell big retail how to do their jobs, they shouldn't tell us how to do ours unquote, again, referencing the we have a problem. And then when they come in to try to hold those people accountable there, the conditions are set that they can't even do their jobs. You

17:12  
know, you know, that's something that I think Target and I know, target and the sheriff have been having conversations, you know, privately on this issue, I think that's something that they're gonna have to figure out. Again, I don't disagree with his frustration. But again, that's where we're trying to not necessarily go out on social media and solve these problems, but have conversations with individuals on finding real solutions to this because that's what it's going to take. And it's a combination of a lot of things. It's a combination of educating folks developing an A level of trust to, it's figuring out how we can protect the brands, from being you know, targeted by some of these viral videos and such that go national. And then also making sure first and foremost that our employees and our customers are comfortable when they're in the store shopping, and they feel safe from the type of criminal activity.

18:07  
We'll hear more from Rachel Michelin with the retailer's Association in just a minute. But now, here's Steve's interview with Sacramento County Sheriff Jim Cooper.

18:14  
I'm here with Sheriff Jim Cooper from Sacramento Sheriff, thank you so much for joining us. Good to see you, Senator. Sheriff, you were elected just to give some background about you. You were elected in December of 2022. Heading the County Sheriff's Office, it's a big County, how many people in Sacramento County 1.7 million 1.7 million and you had a career as a sheriff's officers for 30 years. You were in the sheriff's office

18:42  
30 years I retired as a captain and before coming to the legislature and serving with you. Right.

18:47  
So you retired as a captain. But you also served 15 years as a mayor and council member in the city of Elk Grove, a suburb of Sacramento. And that is you just mentioned you served eight years in the State Assembly. Yes,

19:00  
I am older than I look. Yeah, you

19:04  
look a lot younger than me. So you It's so interesting, because you've gone from a lawmaker to now a law in force her. How has that transition been for you?

19:15  
It's been good. I mean, I think going to the legislature for eight years was a good thing. I learned so much. And really learn about compromise and how things work, because you never get your way in the legislature. So that was important. So to me, it's like going there and getting a PhD. And now I'm back. So it has served me very well. So I'm very appreciative of my time working with you and other members of our legislature. So

19:38  
you're kind of a frontline officer. Now in this issue of retail theft. You of course were in the legislature while we debated changes in the law. As you know, prop 47 created a new standard and how you can enforce retail theft. But can you talk about the extent of the problem that you have seen from your vantage point?

19:57  
So they passed it in 2014 and It changed seven crimes from misdemeanors to, I'm sorry, felonies to misdemeanors, and it really changed the landscape. And for shoplifting, it took the amount from 400 to 950. And they were very specific in crashing that language is that you can't combine theft. And that's really the big issue more so than the dollar amount, because so as long as you stay below $950, you can go steal and get caught, you know, 1520 times in one day, and you cannot combine it. So the most you will get is a citation. And that's it. So right now we've got 30,000 outstanding misdemeanor citations in Sacramento County. And the rest of the state looks similar to that. So these folks just don't show up for court. And that's a big issue with that is the amount. And my thing is if someone's got a drug problem, drug issue, will be a drug court, the judges can force them in a drug court, obviously, they completed it and got clean, they go ahead and expose that record. Now that they just have no power with that. So the problem is rampant. So

21:03  
there I've read a number of the stories about retail theft, and there's a lot of disputing views. Some say that it spiked and is is out of control. And others say no, the stats don't back it up. What's your view of the extent of the problem of retail theft today?

21:19  
Well, for all those academics, looking at the reporting stats, they aren't there. And the reason they're not there, they're not reported. All of your major big box retailers, Home Depot, Lowe's, Best Buy Target, Walmart, they have a non confrontation policy, in that if someone steals and walks out the store or leaves the store, they will not stop them. So think about this. Senator, we were there for a week, we made 283 arrests, those would not have been reported by the retailers. So it's a VAs under reporting. It has been reported since 2016. And that is when the law took effect, and it's gone down. So that's really the prime issue. Crime is going on. And we've seen the break ins in the Bay Area vehicles, but they're still talking about crime down. No, it's not. It's just vastly under reported.

22:08  
And of course, you just completed a sting operation in Sacramento County at 12 locations. As I understand it, you match mentioned you at 285 arrests. So your example you just use is that a lot of those arrests, shoplifting would never have been reported. So that's why the statistics may not be as they appear to be to some. But can you talk to me talk to me about that sting operation? Why do you do it? Where do you do it and the results of it.

22:35  
So having been in the legislature and been in law enforcement, I really knew what the issue was. So we got some funding for retail theft. And we use that funding to pay for those officers. So from a Monday through Sunday, we ran an operation at 12 locations, and we lost her set up inside and outside the store and getting people and some of these stores these big box retailers that self checkout, there are no staff present there so far. So come in, ringing up one item or to walk out with the rest, folks just walking through the self checkout, people going out emergency exits with big screen TVs, because they know staff will not stop them. And they're not running. They're walking senator, one individual had his kid is his kid, about 12 years old, actually pushed the card out for him out of the emergency exit. And that individual had been there multiple times. So what's going on is, and I think also a good stat is out of 285 or 83, only 42 were homeless. So that that's that's an issue with it. But a lot of these folks are going out committing crimes, because there's no accountability, I'm not getting in trouble. I'm not going to go to jail, nothing's going to happen. So it's really an air of a wild west. As far as these some of these thieves are concerned. Why pay? And and

23:53  
I heard some more stats about those 285 arrests that you made you, you indicated that you issued 233 citations, meaning that the amount that they were stealing was under $950. Which means that they are they voluntarily have to appear in the future. And that goes back to the reference you made earlier about 30,000 outstanding citations in Sacramento County. But you also said something else in your press conference, which was that? I believe it was 65% of them had a history of violence, arrest of arrest for violence. Is that right? Yeah, that's

24:27  
correct. And that's one thing people don't talk about in these studies. They don't really don't drill down deep. And that's why we ask the question, Hey, are you homeless in the house, and we check their records. So we're trying to get as much data as we can to really help it really shed light on it. And the public's fed up. It's pulling in the 80 percentile and as you know, Senator, anything that pulls that high is a winner. And it really it really makes a big statement. And only the realtors as you and I know can change this because the voters were duped into voting for this back in 2014 the safe neighborhoods and Schools Act or Streets Act, it has to go back to the voters, the legislature cannot change any part of the law. Unless they weaken it, they cannot strengthen it. I want

25:09  
to come back to that in just a moment. But just to close on your your sting operation, as you said, you had the money for it. I know the legislature and the governor put up almost 250 $240 million for retail theft grants. So you got nine and a half million, which allowed you to do this staying another stat from your announced announcement the other day was that most of those who were committing these were done as individuals not part of an organized crime ring. Can you talk about that? Yeah,

25:39  
absolutely. So I don't have in second, okay, there's no Louis Vuitton or Gucci stores. So we have a lot of big box retailers. So it's not the smashing grabbed you see that goes on? Yes. This is not even a drip, drip drip. is a constant water flow with these folks going in these stores shoplifting day in and day out 1000s of times a day, throughout the county, and taking those items and leaving and that's the issue. You know, you think the big crime and smash and grabs? That's a part of it. Yeah. But a lot of it's just individuals. They may come in two or three together, yes. But it's individuals doing it. And that's really the big issue with that. And it's frustrating. And then also in that operation, we got several, probably four or five that actually went over the the 950. Mark. So we did make some felony arrests out of that. So the money, we appreciate you and your legislator, the governor, giving us the money. But I guess my big concern is the law is still the law where you know, 233 got tickets, because they can't be arrested citations. They're not going to show up for court, they're going to fail to appear, and then just languishes out there,

26:52  
which means they probably do it again, no accountability, and they do it again. Talk to me about the the cooperation that you've been getting from retailers and doing this important work that seemingly is to their benefit and the general public's benefit. What kind of cooperation Have you been getting? Well, at

27:08  
first, we got pushback from a couple of big box retailers. They didn't want to cooperate. And then I took to social media and took them to task. And they changed their tune. So even this past week, obviously Ulta has hit a lot in Sephora. So we decided to go to Ulta and help Ulta out. So we're in their their security room with their security, corporate calls and says, Hey, we don't want you guys working with him. You got to leave a security room. So basically Ulta kicked us out. So we stayed in this door stayed outside, and it still made arrest for shoplifters. So how ironic trying to help a business a national business, and they don't want you to they don't want

27:46  
your help. And that's Ulta Beauty Ulta Beauty. Yes, sir. Right. And I did see your your postings on social media. And I had and we'll hear we interviewed Rachel Michelin and I pulled out some of your choice quotes to share with her to get her reaction to so. And of course, it's what brought it to my attention about your good work in Sacramento County.

28:14  
Here's the big thing. We have the retail Association, California Regional Association. But at the end of the day, that Association does not tell the corporate board of Walmart, Target, Lowe's, Home Depot Best Buy what they do. They do what they want to do, because it's about getting profits for their shareholders, not about what what the California retailers want. And that's the big issue with that. This is a retail decision. They talk about how big their losses are all the time. We're losing billions of dollars, we're closing stores, yet they do nothing to stem the tide of shoplifters is a matter of fact, they're complicit in it. Well,

28:53  
that's a pretty strong indictment of these retailers. And they have announced closings here and then in the Bay Area, and all across California. And they do cite retail theft. So it's surprising to hear you say that they don't want to cooperate. In the enforcement and the crackdown.

29:09  
It's all about their image, Senator. And that's the big thing with him, hey, they don't want anyone or incidents in their store. They've got incidents anyways. I've talked to a lot of folks that don't shop anymore. That's why Amazon is getting bigger and bigger. And it's hurting our brick and mortar stores. And we've got to do what we can to help them out. And as we know, the backbone of businesses, small business, small, the small businesses, they can't survive. They aren't surviving the big the big guys can. And it's ironic the new norm is everything is locked behind Plexiglas. You gotta go there ring a button. Someone comes five or 10 minutes later, and that's not okay.

29:47  
So you mentioned earlier the problem of prop 47 That that raised the threshold for what would be considered a felony from the $400 range to 950 in order for it to be considered a serious crime. And, and that, of course, was buried in a collection of other reforms, mostly decriminalizing drug crimes, from felony to misdemeanor. So And arguably, the public probably had very little attention paid to this particular element of it. So I know that that you and others have argued for a change, and it can't happen through the legislature because the measure was adopted by the voters. And the only way to change it is through the voters with a change or reform, is there a particular reform that you're supportive of that you would like to see the retailers and others advance?

30:35  
I'm supporting any reform, and hopefully retailers do it. Walmart has put in half a million dollars into the initiative. So far, the other big box retailers have not. So it's kind of wait and see. And with them, you never know, I talked to them, I ran prop 20, back in 2020. And they were all in and then you know, that they they dropped out. So you never know what you're gonna get from the retailers. And it's really, it's a guessing game. And that's why I'm so adamant about what they do is

31:03  
one particular reform that if you've been convicted the first time or you've been arrested the first time it may be a misdemeanor. But if you do it again, it's a felony. So you can stay out or and or can you stack these crimes so that you get above the threshold? Are those some of the reforms you would be supportive of? Yeah,

31:19  
to really combine the amounts? Obviously, you right now you can't combine the amounts and the the people that wrote the law, were very specific in that. If we change it, you combine the amounts, and I think we're looking at maybe, on your entry, your second second conviction for shoplifting, that it becomes a felony?

31:38  
Well, those seem like pretty sensible reforms. To me.

31:42  
It does. But we're not we're not dealing with common sense here. As you know,

31:46  
well, I've always enjoyed our work together in the legislature, and I know you're doing a great job as Sheriff of Sacramento County, I appreciate you taking the time to give us the frontline view of retail theft. And by the way, you didn't talk very much about the the store employees and how they're feeling and how they felt about having your officers in their store helping them as well as the customers who who may not feel safe and not want to do not want to shop. That

32:12  
was actually the best part. The employees were so happy to see us they said they they felt safe for once. This is the first time they feel safe going to work. They were ecstatic. They're happy. Other shoppers at SOS arresting bad guys, they were clapping saying thank you, thank you, thank you. They were very appreciative. And I don't really think the retailer's really think about the image, what's going on right now. And the damage has been done. So hopefully they get together and change. But I don't know, Senator, I'm just, I'm not optimistic when it comes to this. Well,

32:45  
cynicism usually is well grounded from being in our, our political world for a long time, as we both have been. I met earlier this week with 11 police chiefs in the Bay Area. And we and they brought up the issue of retail theft, they're very stressed about it, and what it means for their small businesses in their communities and their ability to, to enforce and keep people safe. And so I know that your views reflect a much broader consensus among the law enforcement community about you, we blew it with Prop 47. And we got to find a way to right size it, we can see it's not working in our communities, for everyone, except for the thieves that know how to take that know how to take advantage of it. Sheriff Cooper, anything else you want to say? As we close this conversation? No.

33:31  
I appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to do the podcast and really inform your listeners what's going on in California. And we need change. Thank

33:39  
you, sir. Thanks for all that you do. Sheriff Cooper from Sacramento County. Thank you, sir. Thanks, Senator. And now here's a final thought from Rachel Michelin of the retailer's Association. And I know that there's a growing use of delivery products, companies that deliver things right to your to your front door, rather than the shopping experience. You go to the so many retailers certainly in the drug space, everything's locked up. Everything's locked up. You feel like that things have gotten so bad that to get get a shaver, you got to have an employee come in and unlock a cabinet. It's not about some alcohol or a pharmaceutical product that could be abused. Now seems silly, seemingly so many different things where that whole retail experience seems to be changing substantially. Do you worry that that this problem that we're talking about, is really going to change the whole landscape of retail for a lot of your clients that what used to be a wonderful experience of going shopping with your family has changed into something that is so much different than it may may really changed the whole landscape of retailing today?

34:51  
I do. I absolutely do. In fact, we have in other parts of the country you see some of our stores that are going to a full on you walk into a store, it's a kiosk, and you order on the kiosk, and then they go get it from the back. So there isn't even product on the store floor. You know, and that's, you know, what we're headed towards if we can't find solutions to this. And look, I love shopping is retail therapy. There's something very fun about going into the store, especially now during the holiday season, right? People love to go to the stores, they're decorated, the music is playing, there's the hustle and bustle. That's all part of the experience. And so that's why we're working so hard to try to find solutions to this, because you're absolutely right. You know, we got an experience of online shopping a lot during COVID. You know, people were online shopping. And what we saw once the pandemic kind of receded a bit, particularly in California, and we were open up a bit more, we saw people heading to the stores in droves, because they wanted that in store experience. And I think that we need to protect that. More importantly, though, too, is that while you talk about the delivery system, and online shopping that works for maybe our big, our big brands and our and our big retailers, I always want to make sure that we keep in mind that while you hear the stories of these big brands being hit, our small retailers are hit just as much. They don't have the ability to turn around and do online shopping or store it or door delivery. So we have to solve this for them as well, because it's our small businesses are the backbones of our communities.

Rachel, anything you want to add that you haven't added already? No,

I just appreciate the opportunity to have the conversation with you. Thanks for having me in and talking about this important issue facing all parts of the state of California.

36:43  
Well, Rachel Mitchell and president of the California Retailers Association, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with us today. Thank you.

36:50  
Great, thank you.

36:51  
So we just finished both those interviews, I thought they were really interesting to hear kind of both their different perspectives on this issue. As a lawmaker, Steve, what do you think is the path forward here? How does this change?

37:06  
Well, as was said, in those interviews, prop 47 was enacted by the people to change it, you have to have action by the people. There's two ways to put something on the ballot. One is for the legislature to put it on. And then the voters decide. Another is for an initiative to be qualified and the voters can decide. Sheriff Cooper mentioned that Walmart's put up $500,000 towards an initiative, the actual costs of placing something on the ballot is much closer to about $10 million. So we're going to see whether the other retailers care enough to invest in that, that that pathway for reform, in terms of the legislature putting something on the ballot, it's possible. But it's tough sledding, there isn't another voice that wasn't in these interviews that says that the reforms that were enacted were just perfectly right. And that charging people for these low level crimes are things that shouldn't be priorities, and that the people who are stealing our ceiling because that they can't afford food, they can't afford housing, and they're desperate. And that that's a more fundamental problem that doesn't get resolved by just charging people and throwing them in jail. And we didn't share that perspective. That's certainly one that you hear often during the debates in the in the legislature. So that's the pathways going forward, whether they're taken or not. We'll learn more in the in the coming year.

38:29  
And you mentioned the ballot initiative. Is there another way to change it that you see happening? Like, that doesn't seem that likely? Do you think there's another way that would actually happen? No,

38:41  
I don't think there is another way Sheriff Cooper mentioned that he had led a campaign for proposition 20 A few years back to make some of these changes, and it wasn't successful. On the other hand, it seems like the problem is getting a lot worse, and people are getting a lot more concerned and fed up and as we talked about could change the landscape for retail. Do you feel safe Vivian when you go out shopping, and it's not just about whether you're worried about a shoplifter, it's also about whether you feel like your car is safe, and it's going to be broken into and the packages that you've stored there are going to be taken, but what's your feeling about it? Honestly,

39:15  
yeah, I feel pretty safe going into a store but I am more concerned about my car. And you know, no matter where I park these days, I always am conscious about and maybe this is part of just growing up in the Bay Area, which is always kind of a thing but you know, I don't leave anything in the car visible I make sure to like put packages in the back of my car before I go to the next location. So like, if I'm parking somewhere new, I'm not putting it in the back of the car right in front of people who might see it while I'm out of the car. So I'm way more conscious about that. And that side of it than actually going into a store I think when I I don't know that I can think of a time when I've seen someone shoplifting in a store but I feel like that wouldn't be as bad acutely scary to me as someone breaking into my car.

40:02  
Well, and this is the fundamentally is going to be consumer behavior that's going to may drive the solution based on whether people keep shopping or they don't, and how their habits may be changing

40:19  
thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Table Talk. Special thanks to Sacramento County Sheriff Jim Cooper and to California Retailers Association president Rachel Michelin. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast and we'll see you next week on Table Talk.