Bullets 2 Bedpans
EP:7 Walking a Fine Line: Self-Defense in the Medical Field
Dee Tox, Leslie Yancey and John Malone, a nurse with a unique background in martial arts are diving into the thin line between self-defense and potential legal consequences in the medical field.
Don't miss out on this enlightening conversation that offers both challenges and solutions in healthcare defense.
Nurses and Medics: This is your platform! We want to hear your stories of the good, the bad and the ugly. Send us an email at cominghomewell@gmail.com
Do you know a health worker that needs a laugh?
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Special Thanks to
Artwork: Joe Weber @joeweber_tattoos
Intro/Outro/Disclaimer Credits:
Pam Barragan Host of 2200TAPS Podcast
"Racer" by Infraction https://bit.ly/41HlWTk
Music promoted by Inaudio: ...
Dee Tox, Leslie Yancey and John Malone, a nurse with a unique background in martial arts are diving into the thin line between self-defense and potential legal consequences in the medical field.
Don't miss out on this enlightening conversation that offers both challenges and solutions in healthcare defense.
Nurses and Medics: This is your platform! We want to hear your stories of the good, the bad and the ugly. Send us an email at cominghomewell@gmail.com
Do you know a health worker that needs a laugh?
B2B N.F.L.T.G. Certificate click here
Get the ammo you need to seize your day at Soldier Girl Coffee Use Code CHW10 for a 10% off at checkout!
Special Thanks to
Artwork: Joe Weber @joeweber_tattoos
Intro/Outro/Disclaimer Credits:
Pam Barragan Host of 2200TAPS Podcast
"Racer" by Infraction https://bit.ly/41HlWTk
Music promoted by Inaudio: ...
simple self-defense that I can teach somebody in just a few classes is not that it is you get away from the hold. Most likely you're going to have to strike your attacker. And as far as the hospital is concerned, especially if it's a patient, there's a little bit more of a gray area when it comes to, like family members and stuff like that. But if it's a patient and a nurse, a respiratory therapist, a physical therapist, whoever it is, if you strike a patient they're going to fire you.
Speaker 3:All right, bullets to bedpans, you'll see it, say military nurses and a medic. But a lot of what we talk about crosses over onto the civilian side. When we were talking about workplace violence I said, yeah, when we're deployed, we expect it. I mean we expect that if a bombing happens or there's a sniper. I mean you don't want it, but you know that should happen. But when we're in garrison and we're back home, it's not the place we're expecting to have to dive under a stretcher or subdued somebody or whatnot.
Speaker 3:So this one's focused on the solution part, but a lot of it is just we want your expertise, is it? You have like 8,000 degrees in martial arts. I'm sure we can figure out some solution. Yeah, that's really kind of where we're at. So I guess my first question is you know where? What got you into nursing? Because you know we got to make the joke. The joke, right, is the. The BNC is what we call it in the military. The boys nurse core. Right, there's not a lot of male nurses. There's not. I mean, I appreciate them because, holy shit, you just put a whole bunch of females together and I was a nurse manager and it was the most stressful job in my life, not because of the patients, because of freaking too many women together.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I always joked with my nurse manager. I asked her. I was like hey. I said hey, we've got enough guys on, not Shift. Now I said can you give us a week stretch, once every 28 days, of just all guys? Seriously, it'll make our life a whole lot easier, because when they all get synced up it can be a little cat scratchy.
Speaker 3:A little, so I get it. So what made you decide, hey, let me join this group that is mostly women.
Speaker 1:Well, from when I was, like you know, started thinking like, hey, you know, like, what do you want to do after high school? And all that Medical, the medical field and that side of stuff just always interested me. I actually started out thinking I wanted to go to pharmacy school. Not sure what changed my mind there. I thought about radiology for a while. My instructor is actually a nurse as well, so and he is about he's not a lot older than me, he's six or seven years older than I am. So I got to see you know in here, like when he went through nursing school and then started working, you know, as a nurse and stuff, and that kind of piqued my interest and he was somebody that I looked up to and respected. So kind of just seeing you know the path that he took kind of piqued my interest in that. So I started looking more into it and then got to see, you know, all the different avenues that I could take when it came to nursing, whether it was, you know, nurse practitioner, which is where I'm at now.
Speaker 1:Originally I was looking at CRNA school, but then I did the whole, you know, got married, had kids thing and that kind of shot CRNA school in the foot just because of the not being able to work for you know, like three years and stuff like that. So that's kind of kind of what got me started was like I always had the. I had the interest in the medical field and then just you know people that I knew and then another guy that I trained with that I actually we tested for our black belts together. He's quite a bit older than me but he's a nurse practitioner as well, you know. So you know he at the time when I was looking at that he was working as like a flight nurse and you know things like that. So it's like, you know, I had the interest in flight nursing. I'm too big to be a flight nurse, so that kind of got. I'd have to lose 40 pounds to meet the upper weight limit with gear on.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, you're on the. You're on rotary wing. Fix the wing. We take you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm a, I'm six, four away, about 260 pounds, so yeah, so. I was like I'm more suited for that than I just keep my feet on the ground. But so that's kind of what got me into the nursing was the interest in the medical field. And then you know, somebody that I really looked up to, respected kind of he was, you know, obviously. I mean he's a big mentor of mine growing up, you know, seeing him go into it it just kind of sealed the decision.
Speaker 3:All right, everybody. So again we're we start with conversation because we always have great conversation and everybody's probably like who are we talking to today? And so everybody bullets to my pins back and we've been doing a little series on workplace violence and we wanted to continue that because we've talked about all the issues with it. We've gone through it a couple times and we're like so what's the solution? So I'm here with my interim co-host, leslie Yancey.
Speaker 3:Hello, leslie, hey hey, hey hey, and MZ is out for a little bit right now, so Leslie's filling in and Leslie and I had this discussion about workplace violence and I was like you know, we know there's a problem, we know a little bit's being done, but what's the solutions? And then she smiles, she goes you know, I got a friend. And when Leslie says she got a friend, it's going to be infrastic. Oh right, you do have great friends. And so this friend is John Malone.
Speaker 3:John Malone's been a nurse for 15 years. He's a nurse practitioner for about a year and he works in the CVT and he loves it. And on top of that and this is where part of the solution comes in he's a sixth degree black belt in the Chuck Norris system. I know there's a lot of jokes coming to your head right now, keeping to yourself. He's a third degree black belt in Crab McGaw and he is a blue belt in BJJ, and so he actually we're going to talk about this. He was like I got a solution for you and he wrote up something for his hospital. So, John, it's awesome to have you here.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 3:So you joined the BNC, as we call it in the military. You took the leap, you came to the dark side with all of us nurses over here, and then, 14 years then you decided you had enough of just straight nursing, became a nurse practitioner. Where does the martial arts come in Like? When did you start that?
Speaker 1:I actually started. I started karate in kindergarten the same year.
Speaker 3:Oh damn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I started like August of 1988. Ninja Turtles were huge, karate Kid was huge.
Speaker 3:They start, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really was, and you know, I told my parents that I wanted to do karate. They signed me up thinking it was going to last six months and 35 years later, here I am still doing it, still each, and it's really something that I, like you know, picked up well, really enjoyed. I tried other sports, like school sports and stuff. It just wasn't my thing and this is this kind of what I've stuck with over the years.
Speaker 3:Wow, and for the audience, if you have never done any martial arts, my kids did a small amount of it and I will tell you that is dedication. So when you see somebody, that's a six degree black belt, they weren't just sitting over there eating cereal, you know, watching the world go by. I mean that is dedication. So it's impressive. And now you can fuck a lot of people up, and now you're a nurse, and so now how does that all come together? What happened to kind of lead you to go like, hey, we can do this better.
Speaker 1:Um, as far as like the um, you know, like becoming the nurse, like I said, you know, my, my, my karate instructor, somebody that I really looked up to, uh, respected um, he was a nurse, he, he took that nursing route and I kind of, you know, following his footsteps with that. Right. Um and then.
Speaker 3:Did, did you see? Did you see a lot of workplace violence is like? Were you watching this or was it happening?
Speaker 1:I have seen, um, I have seen, you know, quite a bit. I've been in, you know, I've been involved with, you know, several instances where I was called because they just needed, you know, mail, you know help or reinforcement, like with you know, violent, whether it was like violent patients or sometimes even family members. I've been called to different areas. Typically, a lot of times it would be I'd be called to the emergency room. That's probably where you're going to see the greatest part of it. I've never worked in the emergency room. I've always been in, like critical care or intensive care areas, um, but I've been called to to help in those areas.
Speaker 1:So I've seen that, whether it's been from patients, um, that were under the influence of some type of substance, whether it's alcohol, drugs, whatever, sometimes it was just patients that were, you know, for you know, lack of a better term or just assholes, and they come to the hospital for help but then they don't like what we're doing, um, or it's family members that are upset because they don't think we're doing what we should be with patients or it's.
Speaker 1:I've even had instances where patients have, you know, passed and it was an, it was a untimely or, uh, unforeseen circumstance and, you know getting upset and you know, then they they kind of turn violent um or you know, have threats of, you know violence and stuff um has come about because of that, you know. So those are the instances that I've seen and like one of them I mean one of them has been recently, within the last you know six months that, um, we were having issues with a patient and the nursing supervisor called was like hey, can you come here and just be a, uh, like a male presence and, uh, you know, a large. You know, because I'm a bigger guy.
Speaker 3:I was like who's going to pick a fight with you? First of all, I mean you're what you said, six, four, what you're saying Six, four, 260, some pounds. So and you know martial arts. I don't know who the hell would want to fuck around with you, so just your presence alone. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And you know, I saw it a lot in the pediatric world, which John's hospital doesn't have pediatrics, but I saw it a lot because you have the mixed dynamics as far as families. Um, as far as you know, maybe a lot of co-parenting going on and a child ends up injured and, like John said, you know, anytime a child gets sick or injured there seems to be a lot of blame that goes around, or if you'd have done this or they'd have been watching him. So I've seen a lot of workplace violence surrounding children.
Speaker 4:Right Um and probably one of the most prominent um. One of the in my career was a um, I said a, twins that were born. The one of the babies went for a um, uh, a procedure that should have been a very basic surgical procedure, uh, routine surgical procedure, and one of the twins died and the dad came back and he threatened all of us in the room that he was going to kill us all, and at that time, of course, we assumed oh, it's just emotions, yada, yada, yada. They did put a security guard at the door. We, you know, had to take care of. We actually let the, the, the body of the child, all night long in the room, expecting him to calm down, come back, visit with the, the child, um, that didn't happen. But we always laugh about the security guards because, you know and I think it's different now Um, but you know, they have no weapons, they, they look like they're, you know, 70 pounds, soaking wet, like they're. They're not going to be able to do anything but 82 years old.
Speaker 4:Yeah Right, but like um, I think, four, four to six months later that child ended up being like a CPS case and um, um they had to do home visit and he actually murdered the social worker. So that person who threatened violence and threatened to kill all of us actually did murder the social worker about six to eight months later.
Speaker 3:Holy crap.
Speaker 4:I mean, we can't think that, it's just empty threats.
Speaker 3:We want to think the best right. We want to think emotions take over. I mean, I've seen it too. I've been involved, I've seen it happen Emotions take over and they're crying, they're not thinking straight, they're they're just reacting and we all want to believe that. But there's this risk that they can't re-contain themselves and shit like that happens right. So again, john, you walk in a room and people are being asshats. I'm pretty sure, when you walk in it, that ass-hattery if that's a word, it's a new word Ass-hattery.
Speaker 1:I don't know, but I'm going to use it now.
Speaker 3:It subsides when you walk in right.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it does. Um, sometimes you know they'll, they'll, they'll calm down a little bit. But then also, too, there's this mentality, especially among guys, is like you know, you, it's that, it's that, that, that that prison, like that prison thing. It's like you got to pick the biggest and the toughest person to pick him out, you know. So, sometimes it's like I could be standing there with a 120 pound female and like they're like, okay, I'm going to attack somebody, I'm a pick, but just like, well, if I can take him out, then you know, everybody else is going to chill. So it's kind of like it's 50-50. It's like either I'm going to come in and they're going to calm down, or I'm going to come in and it's like, all right, I'm going to end up in a fight tonight.
Speaker 3:All right. So I have to ask what's the the funniest or worst scenario that you've been in? Or they could be together.
Speaker 1:Probably the worst is the one that I just said. That just happened, probably within. It happened just a few months before I started the nurse practice job that I'm in now and it had to do. We had a, a lady that came up. She was admitted to our ICU for a reason she had and she had two sons. One of them was an adult. They were both adult sons.
Speaker 1:One of them had was either had some type of mental disability or he I want to say maybe he was like autistic like, but very much so needed to be under the care of somebody. She was not doing well. She was wanting the autistic son to stay with her and we were like that's not something that we can do. We're gonna have to find somebody that can take him and come and get him, because it was looking very much like she was gonna end up like on the ventilator, you know not, and not be able to, and it's like we can't be responsible for taking care of him because he's not a patient. So she was really upset. She was calling another son. He ended up coming in and kind of caused a scene down the lobby with the security guards and turns out he ended up having a gun on him the, I guess and he was on his way up to the unit. So it's kind of one of those ones where you like skimmed by, you know like just by the skin of our teeth on him getting to our unit, but I guess he had put his hand into his pocket for whatever reason.
Speaker 1:And one of the security guards we do have you know, talked about the security guards Sometimes I look at them and I'm like, oh, when they show up, it's just not. This is like they're asking for oxygen for themselves when they run into a situation and so or they look, you know, like you said there's, they're 70 years old, and but we do have a few that are like retired. Some of them are like maybe like retired, like military police or retired police officer, state, you know, state trooper, you know state police officer, that kind of deal, and those guys can if they have the training and like the background, they're allowed to carry weapons now. So we do have a few security guards like Kerry Firearms and stuff like that. But I guess one of them kind of saw him reach into his pocket, didn't have a good feeling about it. They got hands on him real quick and then just held until local PD came and took him away. So that was like one, that was like kind of close, and then Now he was.
Speaker 3:He was the autistic child. Can you add that guy?
Speaker 1:He was not the. He was the older brother of the autistic son, and so this was like the supposedly intact. Normal, yeah, like the one that was, you know, I guess normal is not really their best term.
Speaker 3:They don't even exist in the medical community. I gave up on that word.
Speaker 1:But the one that you know, the one that was you know would have been considered, you know, like you know, have the ability to be the caregiver for this, for the, for the, for the other son. And then, probably the funniest one was this was a patient. You know, dealing with the patient was basically what we call social intubation. You know, comes in, he was strung out on something, the ER intubating because he was just belligerent and they couldn't do anything with him. Clearly, system he woke up, basically chewed through his ET tube, so we had to extubate him and he's, you know, screaming and hollering and he's wanting to get up. And it's like I actually wasn't even working on my unit that night. I picked up overtime on another ICU and I was just coming over, I guess, like my spider sands kind of tingled. So I was like I'm going to go see what's going on over there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a smart thing to do, yeah.
Speaker 1:I just I walked into this situation and he's and I was, and they were like we don't know what to do. So I asked him all the you know, who are you? Where are you? Who's the president, what year is it? And I was like he's oriented, let him sign out. And so he was threatening, he was telling me he was going to kick my ass and all this other stuff. So I was just you know, I told him I'm like I'm going to untie it, but you lay hands on anybody myself or anybody else. I was like it's not going to turn out well. And so I untied him and he goes to stand up.
Speaker 1:Turns out he had a history, had a Huntington's disease. He looked like a newborn baby deer trying to walk around Like he could barely get to the wheelchair. I'm like, and you're threatening to kick my ass, like how is this possible? I was like you can really walk, let alone. It's like I just like pushed you back in the bed and problem solved. So that one was like yeah, exactly. So I was kind of like well, this, this, this like started out to be. I was like okay, this could be bad. And then, when he stood up, I was like, this is not an issue. We had.
Speaker 4:We had spoke before. I had a similar nurse that worked with us in critical care all the time Big guy. We loved having him because he was always the enforcer if we needed somebody. But during one situation we had a patient that had gotten violent with several females. He was extubated and the nurse had shoved him back into the bed. The male nurse and we had all known that the patient had had violent tendencies. All this but someone from speech saw that nurse shove him back into the bed. She went straight to HR. She did. She skipped the nurse manager. She didn't talk to anybody. She didn't understand what had gone on with that patient. Not only did he got fired, he lost his license.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So, like, where do you think? Like, how do you think that, that that you know anybody listening, you think, okay, well, I mean I can't just let somebody beat up on me. So where is that lined in the sand where we say we're able to protect ourselves?
Speaker 1:And that is where, when we talk, when you know you mentioned that I had written something up from a hospital is actually the facility that I work for has a like an auxiliary like facility about 20 miles away. It's a, it's a, it's an ER, is what it is, and they also there's some doctor's offices and some outpatient testing and stuff. But it's kind of like you can go there and then they can treat you just like an ER. But if it's something that's going to be need admitting or whatever, they can take you up to the main campus or to another local hospital that's close if it's something that's beyond what they can do. But she also used to. She was before she was the manager. Then there she was the house supervisor and she had come to me and said, hey look, we've had a lot of issues with, you know, nurses being hurt by violent patients coming in. You know, can you come up with something for us?
Speaker 1:Hospital use, hospitals use this program. It's called CPI. I don't remember what it stands for. I know the C. In my opinion the C stands for crap, because I was really worried about what's in food. Yeah, I just recently had to go through this class just because of you know where I worked the hospital and stuff I mean and it's like and they tell you this isn't self-defense, they're showing you what to do If somebody like grabs you by the neck or grabs you by the wrist and all that sort of stuff and none of it would work. From my professional opinion, from a martial artist side, this stuff is not going to work. Like if people try to use what they're showing you in this CPI.
Speaker 3:You're going to die. You're just going to end up in a seizure or worse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's a hospital. It ends up it all boils, it all goes back to a hospital liability. So they.
Speaker 3:It might correct in saying this or maybe I'm assuming they don't really want you to defend yourself. They just want you to get out of a situation with minimal injury to everybody.
Speaker 1:In my. What I feel like it is is they want to be able to say, well, we've given you training to protect yourself, and then they want to be able to, at the end of the day, say, oh well, this nurse did what they they should have, so we're not liable. It all it all boils back down to liability. So that line, yeah, so that line in the sand, it it kind of comes down to the individual of okay, what are you willing For me, you know, like if and for me, I mean, and it's different for me because, like with my experience with more large and stuff like I don't, I would have no issue with somebody laying hands on me and me being able to, you know, keep myself safe while you know having minimal or no injury to the person that is, you know, trying to hurt me.
Speaker 1:You know, because it's like you know I've worked on, you know and I teach a lot of what you know, control tactics and different things like that, to where it's like I can get somebody's hands off of me, control them in a safe manner until help gets there to either restrain them or whatever it is. But that stuff takes years and hours and hours of training and repetition to be able to do Simple self-defense. That I can teach somebody in just a few classes is not that. It is you get away from the hold, most likely you're going to have to strike your attacker. And as far as the hospital is concerned, especially if it's a patient, there's a little bit more of a gray area when it comes to, like, family members and stuff like that. But if it's a patient and a nurse, a respiratory therapist, a physical therapist, whoever it is, if you strike a patient they're gonna fire it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're screwed.
Speaker 1:You know, then you're gonna have to appeal to the board you know to whether it's a nursing board or the respiratory board or whatever, when it comes to your license and stuff. But then it comes down to it's like okay, what's more important, my nursing license or my overall general health and wellbeing, which most people I think would probably I would hope would choose their wellbeing over something like that. So that's where that really fine line comes in and it's a really blurred line in the sand, unfortunately.
Speaker 3:Well, and then things happen like the person that Leslie knows. But not only you're fired, you lost your license, so you just lost your career in one move, right Like boom.
Speaker 3:And that dude, from what we can tell, was so duding somebody that was violent towards females. He was protecting the staff and, however, that whatever they found out or didn't find out led to him getting fired. So I mean it's such a pickle that and we're already in enough pickles, right? I mean we're already. I mean after, and I don't wanna get into this, but I'm just making a statement that after the big, what was it? La Ronda, la Donda, the.
Speaker 3:Vanderbilt LVN and that was a whole freaking hot mess and when they went and prosecuted I mean holy crap. So I'm just saying that we've got all these other things to think about to protect ourselves and the patients, and we shouldn't have to be thinking about a family member losing their freaking cookies, coming after us with a gun, a knife or whatever. I mean.
Speaker 3:I get it, I get things happen and I think all of us maybe I'm making an assumption, but all of us can kind of put in a proper place the person that has altered mental status from like. I had one with a subdural hematoma. It kicked me in the face right, Didn't know what she was doing. We're trying to get her med as this in the wrong spot at the wrong time. I took it to the face, got it. I'm not gonna go attack her. If that whole scenario that you gave with the gun and the older brother, if that was the autistic kid, we'd have a different place to put that right. Altered mental state, you know. But when it is peers, have you ever seen a peer to peer? Has it ever happened?
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:Leslie's seen everything.
Speaker 1:I've seen some verbal stuff. I've not seen anything physical between peers, but yeah.
Speaker 4:Now you know, back in the day, that was another thing too.
Speaker 1:I feel like that we have became so soft that everything is Don't even get me started on that, oh my God.
Speaker 4:Listen, everything is let's run straight to management, let's run straight to HR. And that was like the situation that I was talking about. If she'd have taken the correct and spoke to the chain of commands correctly but she didn't she saw a very small picture and did not know the whole situation and she went directly to HR, downstairs manager, and that, to me, that was just it's a grievous person.
Speaker 3:I mean, if that happened on the military side, they'd be slaughtered Like you go up over your chain of command. Like you know, you're putting your life in your own hands just by doing that. We don't do that If you do, it's a death sentence and the fact that the civilian side does not correct that. That's like also a problem yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean it's Like she said too, we've become so just generally salt as a society and it's like even the way I treat my karate students now is so much different than the way I was able to and I'm not saying I mistreat them, but it's the harshness that I treat my students with now and it all boils down to discipline Building respect.
Speaker 1:And discipline is a huge part of martial arts and you have to be able to do that. You have to have that discipline and that respect for one for you to be able to learn this stuff. And two, that's just an invaluable life skill that I'm seeing now personally people coming, new people, whether it's it doesn't matter if it's x-ray text, respiratory therapist, nurses, anybody in the hospital I mean even like dietary that deliver patient trays. There's not that discipline and that amount of respect that we saw five, 10, 15 years ago. And then the way that my instructors my God, I thought my first two years of karate I thought my parents signed me up for push-up lessons because I couldn't stand still or my mouth shut Every time I turned around I was being made to do push-ups. I thought that's what karate was for two years.
Speaker 3:But you bring up a very good point right. Here is my son decided I'm joining football this year as a sophomore. I'm gonna tell you where we live. They're starting that before they're out of the womb, right.
Speaker 3:So, I'm all like you're deciding now, like do you even have a spellet? And so off, he'd go in football. And my husband went to the parent meeting and my husband's played football and stuff. And so he comes back and he's smirking and he said the coach says we're gonna yell at your kids, just telling you we're gonna yell at them. And he goes our job is to break them down, build them up. Break them down, build them up. And if you've never been in that environment team sport, martial art, anything where it requires a discipline and you are there to be part of the greater good, like you don't necessarily get this right and I see that same thing. You know it's the butthurt really quick, right, they're offended. So when there's verbal talk, it must be hilarious in a hospital now, because when I was in it was straight talk. I mean I didn't have time to say now listen in turn, I know that you don't really understand that the baby's not quite positioned at getting no oxygen.
Speaker 3:I'm all like move over, like the baby's blue, like I'm fixing it right and we'll talk afterwards and I'm like I'm not mad at you, but I don't have time because if they go into, you know their blood pressure drops and then we're dealing with all that stuff, we get a problem right. So I wonder now, like you're in there, what do you see now? Like, what do you see the differences, and does it attribute to an increase in workplace violence? I don't know, I'm just spitball.
Speaker 1:I don't know that it attributes to an increase in workplace violence because, like I mean, on top of being a nurse and, you know, a nurse practitioner, it's like I've also taught for some nursing schools, for some nursing programs, I've taught clinicals and things like that and like, when I see how, you know, it's just, it really is, it's a generational thing to where, like you know, we said, you know that they're just the way you know, the societal norms and the way things are viewed in society affects you know obviously, how you know, you know kids are raised and then when they get to, you know, even into the college level, it's like even the way that these, the people, these nursing students, are treated now is not the way I was treated when I was in nursing school and I wasn't in nursing school that long ago, yeah, that it is just overall it's much softer.
Speaker 1:So you know I'm you know, before I left the floor that I was on, I was one of the more experienced people. I was the person that was like, okay, hey, if something's going wrong, you know, ask him or he's going to be there to help. But when I've got a patient whose blood pressure goes from normal to now it's, you know, 50 over 30. And like I'm not going to explain why you need to do what you're going to do, I'm just going to say I'm just going to tell you to go do this, you know. And then they start asking questions and I'm like, don't ask questions, we'll talk after. But it's like they they don't want, they want an explanation before they do it. And it's like I can sit here and explain it to you but your patient's going to croak before that happened and then, and then now they're you know feelings get hurt because you know John was shorting me with him and you know my man was Bill's going to pay the bills.
Speaker 1:And, luckily, luckily, my manager knows and she'll tell people. She'd be like, look, hey, if he hurts your feelings, it probably wasn't on purpose. Ask him about it later and he'll explain it, and that's what I tell people. I'm like, look, I'm going to probably come on, especially in an emergency situation. I'm going to come off as a jerk, plain and simple, because I'm just going to tell you what needs to be done because really, my, my, my, my only priority in an emergency situation is the patient or, if we're talking workplace violence, my only priority is keeping myself or my coworkers safe.
Speaker 1:The instance that I talked about the patient that shoot through the ET tube that you know, that ended up, you know, not really been able to walk that great after we got him up out of the bed, like his primary nurse, was like somebody that I'm still good friends with, that she was pregnant at the time, you know. I pulled her back and pushed her out, you know, pushed her out of the room and was like I'll deal with this because, like, it's one thing for somebody to accidentally get kicked or punched, or on purpose, but I'm not going to let you know, a pregnant co-worker put theirself in a place where they could get hit in the stomach, you know, or whatever, and put not only them but now put you know, a pregnancy at risk. But people don't, you know, they're not accustomed to that type of you know, you know correction and that type of leadership where it's just like do it and I'll explain it later. You know, there's not always time for explanation.
Speaker 4:People are too focused on the shortage in healthcare like so that we are candy coating what the healthcare environment actually is. So everyone comes in with this unicorns and rainbows type picture of what healthcare is, and that's absolutely not what it is. It is a very, very tough environment. We're not preparing people for that environment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then having, you know, having people that are softer, that are not, that don't have the gumption to be able to stand up for themselves. I don't think having those softer people like increased workplace violence, but it allows workplace violence to creep in because, like with my patients, if I have a family member or I even have a patient that starts getting belligerent, I'm going to shut it down right there. And if I have a problem telling somebody they have to leave, I have security. On multiple occasions to remove people, I called not one of my prouder moments but I called 911 myself on somebody one night because security was useless. They weren't leaving, so I just called 911. I mean, and I was like, if you're not going to leave, I'm going to make you leave. I can't think of a single person that works on the floor that I just left back in March that would do that.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:And it's like everybody is so afraid of confrontation and being viewed as the bad guy or being viewed as a jerk or being viewed as being a bitch or whatever it is, and I'm like, and I tell people, and I tell people with self-defense, I'm like sometimes you have to be that person.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know if I'm dealing, if I'm teaching women self-defense and we're talking about, you know, unwanted approaches. You know the first approach can't. I don't consider that to be unwanted because if a guy approaches a female for whatever reason, you know he doesn't know that she doesn't want to be approached. But once he's told no, anything beyond that is an unwanted approach.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:And the same thing goes for you know people in the hospital. They, oh, I got a cute nurse tonight. Okay, all right, some girls may feed off of that. Okay, the majority of people. They may not say it out loud, but it's going to make them feel uncomfortable to take care of that person. Once you're told no, anything beyond that is unwanted. But going back to that softness, nobody wants to be, nobody wants to be like. Well, I'm afraid they'll tell my manager that I wasn't nice. So Exactly. Who cares?
Speaker 3:Yeah, let me ask just pop something in my head and I don't know if this is still in existence, but there was a time where insurances or HMOS were sending how was your experience and they were, yeah, facing their how much they were paying the hospitals based on how hotel-ish, I guess, like their experience is how much? They liked that still exists. And your pain raises, oh Jesus.
Speaker 1:It's called. They're called press gainie, which I think press gainie is like the company.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:That does that, and that's where this is another topic. This is another topic, but I'm going to bring it up. But that's that's where we. Those type of things is where we got into the opioid crisis, in my opinion, because they started basing patient satisfaction off of pain control. So then that's where you got doctors that will just write whatever because people think I need to be pain-free. Yeah, where you can't be pain-free, you can be pain-managed where it's tolerable, but you're never going to be pain-free, especially in surgery or traumas. The same thing goes with patient satisfaction, you know. That's why I joke around.
Speaker 1:I tell people I'm like I don't wear my badge because I don't want people to know my name, because chances are they're going to have something bad to say about me more than something good to say. I keep it in my pocket, you know, because the thing is yeah, well, the thing is all right. So I wear the shoes that I wear at work. I wear the Vibram, like the ones where they have like the face in them. So, yeah, leslie's rolling her eyes. She knows, you're not wearing crocs.
Speaker 3:You're not wearing like a.
Speaker 1:I've got a joke about crocs, but it's extremely inappropriate.
Speaker 3:Go for it, go for it, come on.
Speaker 1:Wearing crocs is kind of like getting a blow job from a dude it feels good until you look down and realize you're gay.
Speaker 3:And we are done for the day, folks. Oh my gosh, all right Back to your ridgeline.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so they're, you know, so they're still so it's still based on that, you know, and people don't want to have that negative review.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:And then hospitals. Obviously, you know, want those positive reviews, but the thing is is what people don't understand. And this is the same thing with the compliment cars that they used to put on restaurant tables, like how was your experience? Nobody reports the good.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:Only hear about the bad. So if you have a hospital that's got a, you know they're like oh, hey, look, we brought in a thousand press gainies last month and 900 of them were negative. Well, did we really only treat a thousand patients Right?
Speaker 4:So, now all the rest of them were okay.
Speaker 1:People typically don't, because they're like oh well, if I don't tell them the bad, if I don't tell them that there was anything wrong, they're going to assume that it's good. But they don't. And I've said for years as a joke and it's the truth. The only question on a patient satisfaction survey for a hospital should be did you die?
Speaker 3:No, but there's truth in that. And I know people are like why are they talking about this? And we're talking about workplace violence? Well, because what John said, you know, you do not have people standing up for themselves because they're afraid that they're going to get a bad review or it's going to affect their pay. It's going to affect so everything it creeps in right. So now we're dealing, and then COVID just ripped the shit out of all of the medical community. So now everybody's short staff and now you got people irritated and now you got a staff that if they're still doing press gain, you got to hope that's gone away after COVID, you know. Now you've got people that are afraid how far can I go? I'm going to lose my job? Can I stand up for myself? So how does all of this translate to what you did for the hospital?
Speaker 1:It's that it's going to be.
Speaker 1:It's a fine line that you have to walk, like the and the proposal that I wrote up for the hospital I tried to follow as closely.
Speaker 1:I was able to get my hands on one of the CPI books and so I tried to follow as closely along the lines of CPI and I mean I even gave you know research articles and statistics about, like health, you know, violence related to healthcare workers and things like that. So and the proposal was basically shot down, Didn't fall right in line with CPI, because CPI is, you know, is what the hospital, you know, that's how, that's what protects the hospital. Because, like, if I end up in a situation and a patient lays hands on me and I do something to defend myself, and let's say I do the, the, even if I do use the defense that CPI says in the patient, you know, because they've got balance issues or whatever, they trip and fall and hit their head, I can chart that. You know, patient did this. I did this in return according to CPI and that legally kind of covers the hospital because the CPI is the accepted what was your proposal on it?
Speaker 1:It was basically I'm not providing training. But I think where I went wrong in my wording was I used the word self-defense because that, the CPI class that I just went to back in May, they told us in there they're like this is not a self-defense class. Well, yeah, it is. Yeah, it is because somebody's you're teaching me what to do if somebody grabs a hold of me. That's the basic definition of self-defense. But they kept saying this isn't self-defense. This isn't self-defense.
Speaker 1:It boils down to wording and it boils down to you know, hospital and corporate or even corporation not even this hospital, but just corporation no liability against somebody you know that wants to try to sue. You know, and it's like, and it's like everybody. You know everything is. You know people are so sue, happy. Now that you know it's that it, you know it. Just it puts that fear in people. You know healthcare workers or whoever. That all right. If I do something, you know somebody's going to try to try to sue me and that's. You know another place that you know. You know training with self-defense.
Speaker 1:If you're training and you know and I'm not putting a plug in for myself, or just in general it doesn't matter where you train If they're not teaching you how to conduct yourself when you're explaining what happened, whether it is to law enforcement, to a judge, to a jury, if they're not telling you or teaching you or, you know, guiding you on how to present what happened, then them teaching you the physical stuff doesn't do you any good.
Speaker 1:And I think because you know, like you said, like Leslie said, you know the speech therapist. All she saw in her mind was that guy pushed that patient back in bed. She didn't see the number of times that he either hit or tried to hit that guy previous to this, or, knowing that okay, pushing the patient back on, and so I think that's a common sense in my opinion says that if a patient is trying to hurt me, what's the safer option for the patient? If I have to push away, do I push them into a hard floor, into a wall, or do I push them into a mattress bed? I can't say the number of times that I've had patients. I've pushed patients back into the bed that were about to fall. To keep them from falling into me, I pushed them back onto the bed.
Speaker 4:And the first time I saw someone saw was just that little snippet.
Speaker 1:And stuff like that can look bad. I mean, it can look really bad when in reality it's not.
Speaker 3:So my question on that, on that situation, like I've been right in the through my head, I'm like how in the heck Does somebody do that? They push them in the bed for safety, to protect the, the staff, to protect himself and to protect the patient. So everybody's kind of protected made, the best move was pushing him into the bed. And then this speech service sees it, sees it, or one snippet, and then goes and reports it and all I can think of is that the hospital is like oh, we're taking the safest route, boom.
Speaker 4:I'm firing him, go ahead. If you look at somebody like John, for instance, this is, this is how my mind thinks. Now I know John and I have worked in that situation. But you think of someone who is someone like speech, who maybe doesn't necessarily work to the same extent with critical patients that we do. You know they get them after they've been affected, that type of thing. They're not really hands on in the ER, that type of situation, right, but hey, I know John is trained, I know that that John has a sixth degree black belt. I know that maybe I don't like John's personality, maybe I've heard John be a little too aggressive at times. But I'm saying you take that individual who was kind of removed from the situation most times and I already know that John, I maybe don't really like John and then I happen to see John shove a patient back in the bed. Oh well, that is my time to report him because he is way too aggressive.
Speaker 3:You know I can and I say I get, because I don't, I don't get it, but I get what you're saying. But and I get, even where the hospital, if I'm walking through a thought process where they say, oh okay, we're just going to cut our losses like boom fire. What in the hell came up that makes the world?
Speaker 4:What else happened. I'll tell you what else has had. That just reminded me she had also spoke to the family. That's where it is right, and because of our patient satisfaction surveys, the hospital had to show discipline. Action was taken on this, this person, this, this nurse.
Speaker 1:And it really goes back to that. Like you were talking that taking the safest route. Yeah, I ended up with at a other hospital that I worked at. It doesn't have to do with workplace violence, but there ended up being. It was a patient that I had taken care of, I had given report, had left. The incidents had happened probably two and a half, three hours after my shift was over, but it was involved with a patient getting a blood transfusion and there was an error with that and because there had been previous errors that were significant, like patients had died, like in previous months getting wrong blood products because of a computer error with arm bands, and the hospital said, hey, if it's an error with blood, you automatically get this level of discipline, which is like the level right below being fired. And because my name my name was on the paperwork with another person, that person actually made the mistake but they jump.
Speaker 1:Yeah great to that, and I had worked at that hospital for eight years with not so much as even a warning for being tardy or calling off.
Speaker 3:So far, like I mean the and it boils back to liability.
Speaker 1:It was back to liability because, had you know the instance that happened, basically the patient got blood supposed to be transfused within four hours, right right. So, whatever reason, you know, it took like six for this patient to get this unit of blood. The nurse following me didn't stop it in time but the patient was unharmed, but had something happened to the patient and legal action came back. They can say well, those nurses have been dealt with because they received X number of you know, whatever discipline.
Speaker 3:But how does the board like take away? Obviously we don't know the intricate details, but how does the right say license gone permanently versus suspension with retraining, you know, or something like that? Right like where it's like there's no more middle step. It's like do or die.
Speaker 1:And you know. That's you know. Like you said, without knowing you know the details of that. My you know. My guess is probably how it was reported to the board from the hospital.
Speaker 4:So, like you know how the hospital dealt with it and how they reported it to the board, he may not have been given the option for any type of an appeal or to I think in his situation what it was is he came up for renewal while this was in litigation and his lawyer it's like he couldn't get, he couldn't renew his license while he was in litigation. I believe is how that went, gotcha, and it was kind of like, just because of the timeline, he ended up losing his license because of the way lawsuit was drawn out. So, and at that point I think he was just done. I mean, he was, he had probably been a nurse at this point, probably 30 years he was. He was probably 15 years older than me, I would say 10, 10 to 15 years. I mean had always been a nurse, always worked critical care.
Speaker 4:We were absolutely devastated. And look, and then the morale, right, was it pretty much taught us as a team that, yeah, we had to just take whatever came at us, that we weren't able to defend ourselves, because it's your job or defending yourself. That was the position we were put in.
Speaker 3:I will say that any hospital I worked military hospitals, majority right and that's a different environment because we're not we're not for profit, we're there to take care of our service members. So it does have a little different feel to it. And when I work civilian, I think the first thing I noticed was how little control that I had over me. You know, like it was just you're here and this is from somebody that's in the military and we're all seen as assets and all that. And at the hospital I was like there's no regard. There's, there's like no regard.
Speaker 4:I also think to John's point when, when he said that we're not teaching these younger generations. They just avoid confrontation. They don't take control of the situation from the jump. So like, for instance, if I was going into deep suction a baby, okay, you would have parents who would just lose their minds because it is, in ways, a violent procedure, very traumatic, yes. But right off the bat I would say, hey, if you don't mind, could you please step out in the hallway while I take care of this and as soon as I'm done, you can come right back in. That went over so much better than the mom screaming, crying in the corner. Oh, my poor baby. The baby got more upset because the mom was upset, right, but head and address. I took control of that situation from the beginning. Ask those parents to step out. The kid was fine. You didn't injure the kid. You know, maybe you'd bust a nose every once in a while, but it was. It was something that I was trained to do. You need to clarify on bust a nose there.
Speaker 4:Well, when you're deep suctioning a child and they told their heads back and forth, their nose is dry from the virus.
Speaker 1:She's not in there. She's not in there punching the infant.
Speaker 4:But you had to have control over that child. You had to restrain that child because getting rid of that mucus, like with RSV, for example, that prevented that child from going on. Mechanical ventilation Well, and.
Speaker 3:I had to be done. All of us probably learn while we all learn. You know we have a very romantic view. When we start in our careers, we all do right, I'm going to see the world. And then there's a point and it's probably right in nursing school where you realize that we have to for lack of better terms, we have to hurt, to help. So starting the IV, dropping the energy to putting in the chest tube, whatever it is, we kind of have to cause pain in order to make a recovery.
Speaker 1:And so it's.
Speaker 3:That's a hard concept really to get your head wrapped around, and so it is. It's traumatic. So and I know that's a little digressing, but when we're bringing this all the way back to workplace violence, these are all these factors that are cumulatively coming together. So our maybe not inability, but less training and setting boundaries, less training in how to identify a person that could be an issue and nipping it in the bud early on, so we don't ever get to that point and you know where some of that comes from is building trust. I've had patients that you know they're stressed out and and there will be the baby struggling. Like you know, I was doing labor and delivery and utero and everybody stressed out and if they had trust in me and they had trust in the team, then they fared way better.
Speaker 3:And now we're in a scenario where we're short staff, significantly short staffed, and we're zooming in and out of things. We know what we're doing right in the hospital. We know, like I did this, I did that I did we're probably just running checklist more than anything, trying to keep up with everything, and so we're just the trust being built. When we're not building trust, I definitely know we're going to have an increased risk of workplace violence. Right, and now we are put in a scenario where we're short staff, where it's giving us limited time with the patients and we're not maybe able to build that trust as much. It's a big vicious cycle.
Speaker 3:Add in to all the other stuff we talked about today, which we talked about all kinds of things that can influence it. And then, john, you put the cherry on the cake here. When you're like I had a plan and it was to teach self-defense in a way that protects the patient and the staff member, in a way to get them out of the scenario and hopefully minimally injure everybody and the hospital's, like, yeah, no, that's really doing stuff. We're just gonna do our nice little, you know, jay-ing over here?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't, and that costs money. And if we have to actually do stuff, yeah, that could cut into our profits, or we, as we know hospitals, are not making tons of money right now. It's cutting into our bottom line that we may not have much room for right there. So, again, it breaks my heart to say that we've had three different conversations, right, and this third one with somebody that says, hey, I'm an expert in self-defense, I'm an expert in how to subdued somebody without a sleeper hold, I'm an expert in all these things. And we still can't come up with a solution. And so I'm like my God, where is it gonna be? I mean, I hope administration. Somebody here is our little podcast and I was like ew, because it doesn't look good, that doesn't sound good, and you're all having a staffing issue as it is. How in the hell are we supposed to keep staff when you're treated as some kind of third class citizen and you come behind everything? Yeah, you're the one that's the foundation, I mean.
Speaker 1:But we get pizza parties.
Speaker 3:Ice cream socials. Yeah. So administration get in touch, like, wake up, go see John, he obviously has a game plan, he's obviously an expert and you can offer training. Do you offer this? Do you offer classes for medical people? Like, do you offer that?
Speaker 1:on the outside, I don't. I mean I don't offer anything. You know like that's. You know medic like that is, you know specific to you know, medical personnel I do offer. I do have the CROV classes and those classes, like I can tailor. I can tailor, you know, even having a room full of people, you know I had.
Speaker 1:I've got one of my CROV students that's still with me, is a police officer and he's actually one of my CROV black belts and when he comes to class now and works, I really focus on stuff with him, cause he's got the basics when it comes to CROV. I really focus on stuff with him that is pertinent to him being a police officer, because there are, you know, certain things that he can do that as civilians, like we can't in a situation. But there's certain things too that he has to be careful about, because then he gets police brutality screamed at him if he goes, you know. So I can tailor that. You know, when we're working on stuff, I'll be like, okay, here's what we're going to do in your specific situation. You know it's like as, as a healthcare person, you know, if you're in the hospital, here's an option that we can work on for you. That is going to keep you safe. You know, minimize the minimize, you know the chance of injury, or minimize injury to whether it's a patient or a family member, you know, or whatever.
Speaker 1:And I kind of do that even in my kids' class. You know what I teach. I teach my 10 year olds and my 15 year olds, or my 18 or my 25 year old students. I teach them all the same defense, but it's the mindset Right. You know, as a 18, 20, 25 year old, it's going to be attacked outside of, you know, a bar, or outside of, you know, at the mall, at Walmart or wherever. I'm going to teach them the same defense, but it's the follow up, it's what you do after you initially get loose. That differs between the kid that's 10 year old, that's 10 years old, and somebody grabs him by the neck at school.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to teach them to stomp ankles, knees and kick the groin, you know, and do all this other stuff, because that's going to be excessive. They're going to get in trouble with the school. My goal is that they can defend theirself at school and not get expelled. And if one of my boys defends herself at school when they get expelled we're going to Gattie Land. As long as they didn't start it. It's a mindset and a realizing that okay, the setting that I'm in, because what I would do in the hospital is completely opposite of what I would do out and about.
Speaker 3:Steve, but maybe that's something that, since the hospital's not picking up on what you're putting down handwriting, maybe that's something that we can see. I have your side hustle, you can do crop medical. I mean, I think it would be wildly popular to like how do you protect yourself, you know, and make sure that that patient is safe or the family member is minimally harmed? You know, whatever it is, it's a hard spot. I mean the whole thing, just shinny.
Speaker 4:Well, I think that there is an extreme level of ignorance to think that you can go into these social settings and never have any threats of violence taken against you. That is being ignorance on the workers' part.
Speaker 1:And I think that's another part of where our society's at too. People are being conditioned and have been taught that, hey, it's not your job to take care of yourself, it's your job to be nice and then call somebody whose job it is no, no, I mean, that's not the case. It is 100% your job to be able to defend yourself. And for coming from me as a man, as a father, I'm like I feel even more of a responsibility. You know, because chances are, I'm gonna have my two boys with me that are 10 and, you know, 11 years old, that not only am I responsible for myself, I'm responsible for them. So I think, because of my view, that's kind of how I feel when I'm at work.
Speaker 1:It's like I'm, you know, a lot of times I'm one of the only men working that night. I'm working with a bunch of females who are now coming out of nursing school. We got one nurse that started like. We got a nurse that just started, as she posted on Facebook she just turned 21 years old. I mean, I'm literally I'm 20 years older than she is. So it's like I feel like, you know, just a male response. Maybe it's that toxic masculine language. It's not. It's not a job to kind of be the protector of.
Speaker 4:I love toxic masculinity.
Speaker 3:Please Careful what you asked for, leslie, but you know I'm gonna we're gonna wind this down. But I wanna add this is that you know I have watched people come into rooms, come into areas like coming in with a presence, right, there is a way that people carry themselves, that's 100% you can trust me or I've got it, I've got control of this situation, of my situation.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna walk in and when I would do that, even in labor and delivery, they used to call me the the laboring patient whisperer, cause they were like how do you always get them in control? You're afraid when you have pain. So if you teach them that in this scenario it's normalized and I go through the process and I get the partner with them and I explain all of that Like I don't have a problem, so I grab control of the situation right from the beginning and the advice I think we might all have is like walk in owning it and walk in having a game plan with your patients. Work with them, collaborate with them, build that trust, and when you do that, we're gonna de-escalate a lot of problems right from the beginning. But as soon as they don't trust you, if we don't understand what's going on, our natural instinct, our brain's gonna fill in the gap with its own story and if that story is a negative one, look out, cause that can just keep building. You don't know what's going on in their mind. Know your shit, walk in a room, know what you're gonna do, build trust and when all else fails, call John, we'll give out a cell phone. After It'll be linked. That's right, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. All right, we're gonna wrap this up.
Speaker 3:We've got the best picture of the issues and possible solutions and everybody has to come to table. Everybody has to be accountable. The hospitals, the clinics have to be accountable. The staff members have to be accountable. Patients and families have to be accountable. Y'all gotta behave in there. Don't be acting a fool. Everybody's gotta be accountable. And when we're putting that first, I think that's where we're gonna see the best improvement overall. Right? Just my humble opinion. I agree, yep.
Speaker 1:Yep 100%.
Speaker 3:All right, Leslie, what else?
Speaker 4:All right, I think that was a great session. John, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate the training that we have done together, all the real world training that you have taught me. Yes, I will come back. I promise eventually.
Speaker 3:Leslie's a proud McGraw girl.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well you know, and then I have all these children that like to do everything under the sun, so that prevents me from training.
Speaker 1:So I understand.
Speaker 4:So, but yeah, thanks so much for joining us. Perfect.
Speaker 3:John, what do you got? Anything.
Speaker 1:No, I appreciate you guys having me on, listening to my opinions or my so-called expertise, and it really is something it's like, because I love being a nurse, I love being a nurse practitioner, I obviously love martial arts, being able to help people, and it's for me. It's frustrating when we find ourselves in these situations and it's kind of like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. People are having to choose Do I defend myself, keep myself safe? Do I potentially lose my job if I do so? It's like I'd love to be able to find that happy median. But, like you said, I think it goes in circles and there's a lot of give and take on everybody's part and it's a matter of trying to get everybody on the same page, which is seems almost impossible sometimes. But it's like I'm always here to offer ideas and solutions and potential fixes or whatever. But it's just, it's an uphill battle.
Speaker 3:At the very least, you get your CROB, mcgrath or medical going and let's see how that goes.
Speaker 1:All right, I'll work on it.
Speaker 3:All right, everybody, this is Bullets to Bedpans Great, great discussion, as always, and we wanna hear from you guys Like what we're putting out, give comments, share your stories. We wanna know what you guys are experiencing. Do you guys have solutions? If you got them, share them, we wanna know. So we hope you guys have a great rest of the week and, from all of us to all of you, peace out nossosżeровنcom.
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