Embark on a journey to redefine patient care with Launceston's own Sinead Tracy, a podiatrist who weaves 17 years of expertise into a narrative of evolution and empathy. Together, we unravel the tapestry of orthotic philosophy as it melds seamlessly with an approach to clinical practice that places the patient at the forefront. Sinead's transformation from a high-volume practice to one that cherishes comprehensive assessments and urgent care availability has not only amplified treatment success but also cultivated a harmonious patient-practitioner relationship. Fiona Allen's influential perspective on managing practitioners also surfaces, underscoring the pivotal role of strategic workweek planning in delivering stellar patient care.
Witness the maturation of podiatry methods, transitioning from guesswork to an enlightened strategy that makes patient-specific needs paramount. Our conversation with Sinead Tracy sheds light on the pitfalls of over-correcting foot alignment and the critical awareness of tissue capacity and proper loading in orthosis use. We peel back the layers on managing children's foot pain, ensuring a balance between reassurance and proactive treatment for asymptomatic individuals, and the value of a whole-body perspective. This chapter is a homage to the impact of continual learning and hands-on experience in refining patient treatment protocols.
Finally, we share a heartening tale of conservative podiatry triumph through the story of a young woman's ankle sprain, which was resolved without surgical intervention. The art of crafting bespoke treatment plans comes to life as we discuss the integration of 3D scanning technology and the discerning selection of materials for custom orthoses. It's a celebration of patient-centered podiatry and the psychosocial facets of healthcare, where even modest victories pave the way for profound improvements in the lives of those we serve. Listen to discover how a dedicated focus on individualized patient experiences yields transformative outcomes for those we're privileged to treat.
This podcast is recorded and produced on Naarm and Bunurong the traditional lands of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to the elders, past present and emerging and the land, seas and skies for which we all live.
Embark on a journey to redefine patient care with Launceston's own Sinead Tracy, a podiatrist who weaves 17 years of expertise into a narrative of evolution and empathy. Together, we unravel the tapestry of orthotic philosophy as it melds seamlessly with an approach to clinical practice that places the patient at the forefront. Sinead's transformation from a high-volume practice to one that cherishes comprehensive assessments and urgent care availability has not only amplified treatment success but also cultivated a harmonious patient-practitioner relationship. Fiona Allen's influential perspective on managing practitioners also surfaces, underscoring the pivotal role of strategic workweek planning in delivering stellar patient care.
Witness the maturation of podiatry methods, transitioning from guesswork to an enlightened strategy that makes patient-specific needs paramount. Our conversation with Sinead Tracy sheds light on the pitfalls of over-correcting foot alignment and the critical awareness of tissue capacity and proper loading in orthosis use. We peel back the layers on managing children's foot pain, ensuring a balance between reassurance and proactive treatment for asymptomatic individuals, and the value of a whole-body perspective. This chapter is a homage to the impact of continual learning and hands-on experience in refining patient treatment protocols.
Finally, we share a heartening tale of conservative podiatry triumph through the story of a young woman's ankle sprain, which was resolved without surgical intervention. The art of crafting bespoke treatment plans comes to life as we discuss the integration of 3D scanning technology and the discerning selection of materials for custom orthoses. It's a celebration of patient-centered podiatry and the psychosocial facets of healthcare, where even modest victories pave the way for profound improvements in the lives of those we serve. Listen to discover how a dedicated focus on individualized patient experiences yields transformative outcomes for those we're privileged to treat.
This podcast is recorded and produced on Naarm and Bunurong the traditional lands of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to the elders, past present and emerging and the land, seas and skies for which we all live.
Speaker 1:
Hi there and welcome back to Simply the Best Paddier Tree where we want to pass on simple tips to enhance your best practice. I am Jason Augusta and this episode we continue speaking with regards to orthoses and I caught up with Sinead Tracy, who's a paddier trist of 17 years and is based in Launceston, tasmania, here in Australia, at Balance Foot Studio, and that name you may recall as Sinead is the practice partner of Fiona Allen, who you may have heard back in episode 20 talking about practitioner management. I had a good chat to Sinead about her development as a paddier trist and thought process and time management. A major aspect of her practice here is Sinead Tracy. We touched on this very briefly when we spoke about you. Have wanted to have your practice very patient oriented and that's been a bit of a key for both you and Fiona.
Speaker 2:
Absolutely. It was always about being patient, focused and also reflecting on the things that we enjoyed and what we wanted to give for longevity in terms of sustainability and not burnout that you touched on. What we were giving to the patient enriches their lives, but also enriches our lives. We get positive experience out of that too. I get it totally. You get people going out being happy and you're happy and everyone's well looked after. That's what we want.
Speaker 1:
I think Fiona did touch on that with her practitioner management episode which by the way has gone through the roof, anyone?
Speaker 2:
who hasn't heard?
Speaker 1:
it needs to tune into it because it's bloody fantastic and it's never spoken about, but I think I said to Fiona as well, and also yourself, when I met you in Brisbane that you guys have set yourself up with this really beautiful vibe and I don't know why I picked that up, but it's just a coincidence and then you came through with it's all patient, focused and it's all about just having a really cool time at work, and particularly after Fiona's history. But can I ask you, did you have a similar history to Fiona as to what she described?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, well, that overworked, seeing 23-25 patients a day, no time to be able to address other issues when people came in the door. So you've got your general treatments, you're doing x, y and z and then they have an extra problem and you go. I want to. I am a people pleaser by Jane and I want to be able to fix people like that's what I am here for and that when people leave happy, you know feeling better is what you want and you don't have time for that. And then you start getting that into your head, think I don't want to hear this, but then you think, no, I actually want the best outcome for this patient, so where am I going to be able to see them? Am I to actually assess them properly? Because I now don't have any appointments for eight weeks in advance and that's too long for somebody to do to be able to deal with.
Speaker 2:
So then you put them in your lunch break, and then you get into trouble for that too. But so what else am I going to do? Because this person needs to be seen and if they need a follow-up, eight weeks they're going to be back to zero again yes so when we looked at our like, focus now was that we'd always have spaces blocked off so that people could always be seen when they needed to be seen yes in the follow-ups and that you can have that consistency.
Speaker 2:
And when you have that consistency and people do improve and get better and start feeling confident in what they're actually trying to know you do, what you're trying to achieve together then they get a more positive experience from that and therefore they get confidence to look after themselves and that they think, oh yeah, no, I can get better. Rather than feeling like they're fobbed off, like it's all too, hard, it's a good point.
Speaker 1:
It's a good point. What you made, though, about being able to get people in relatively soon, isn't it? Instead of like, oh, hang in there, you know, it was nothing for three or four weeks, it's like a nice thing to be able to like yep, okay, next day or within the week or so.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and I think that's been key in terms of the better treatment plans that we've had now and more success in terms of people getting better, quicker and having that time to let them talk as well. We have 45 minutes now as a first as a new patient, and I will pretty much always get them in within a week and I have a day off and if I have to have a fillybooked I will come in my day off. I'd rather see that person through and and and and. Pretty sure Shanee will be happier too, because they'll be better.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
Rather than coming in and going out as a word.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, well, I think you told me that is it. You have all these spaces available on Mondays so you can just get people in after the weekend, you know?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's right, yeah, so as well as Angkor and Tonel, you know they're calling. Oh, my tools works yeah we can see them straight away, so they were not worrying about infection, or or, if they have got an infection, that we sort of try and deal with that pretty quickly too. Yeah cool, yeah, and Wednesday afternoons as well. So I do Monday. Wednesday afternoons have been blocked off, and then, as I say, fridays, which again might be a nail surgery even. We don't want them to have to wait too long and I've got the time.
Speaker 1:
And if it doesn't come through on a Friday, it's like Friday three hour lunch apparently.
Speaker 2:
Well, that's Monday oh.
Speaker 1:
Monday. Anyway, I'm coming down to Launceston. Anyway, hold on, I want to have a three hour lunch. So this some. This series is on orthoses in clinical practice.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:
And you would have heard by the time this goes up that what it's all about and why we're actually doing it and want to get podiatrists speaking about their experiences and their philosophies and what they're using so everyone can learn. Because I keep saying this, that this is everyone's show. I just am the mouthpiece for it and we want people involved and really, you know, get on board and tell us a story. So what I've done is have a series of people just tell me about their orthoses philosophy or the way that you think, and sort of draw upon the use of orthoses in clinical practice. So where are you with this after 17 years of being a podiatrist?
Speaker 2:
Well, it's definitely changed over the years and obviously having more experience and doing a lot more in the kind of exercise we have side of things.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
I've spent the last three years and we work alongside some physios in our clinic as well now, which is great, so probably used to be more of a like a primary part of my treatment protocol. You know as soon as somebody came in the door, give you a little strap, a little stretch that felt good, straight into an orthotic and out the door, not really understanding what's going on with the tissue capacity and overloading and yeah what you're actually really dealing with.
Speaker 1:
How long ago are we talking about?
Speaker 2:
How long? Well, probably from 17 years ago when I first started, yeah, again in the UK. At that time it was more kind of routine based. There wasn't a lot of that we did in terms of biomechanics. We did a bit, but not as much. And then over the years, when I've worked with other people and when I first started working over here, I was kind of on my own.
Speaker 2:
So I sort of had to figure things out by myself. I didn't have a bad boss, but I just didn't have a boss that really communicated all that well and I didn't really like his orthotics that much. Yeah, he was always having to change them like they were always too aggressive to like. Just the same prescription constantly. There was no variation in anything, it was just like mid-foot overcorrected device?
Speaker 1:
basically, was it confusing for you? If you think back to those early years, do you remember being quite confused about the use of orthosis clinically?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think I was just sort of like hope, winging it and hoping for the best and seeing what came out from it. I'd like to think that I always think that's a great description of where we've all been.
Speaker 1:
We've sort of been winging it for a little bit of time and you learn from that, but I mean how many? Times you just sort of think that could have been done better down the track yeah, much, much better.
Speaker 2:
But I think I've always been, I'm always somebody who does, has more of a less approach. If I don't understand something, I personally won't give something to somebody if I don't believe it in myself.
Speaker 2:
Like how can I just give it to someone if I don't really know. So I probably have a little bit more of that side of things and listen, try to listen to the patient and say, well, this isn't working, maybe I'm not the right person for me to maybe move you on somewhere else. Who? Somebody has the experience, whether you know physios and osteos at the time. Yeah, so that's. Yeah, I probably was like weird headlights.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and then, moving on from that sort of the early years, things have obviously evolved and, as you said, you know you change your way of thinking a fair bit. So what's happened since then?
Speaker 2:
So again, obviously just clinical practice and seeing more and more and doing more education I did that P3 course recently and strength and conditioning and that was great and learn more about kind of loading capacity and or tissue capacity and trying to decrease loading and when that's kind of appropriate in terms of putting an orthosis in and at what point In the treatment plan.
Speaker 2:
Do you do that if you need to like? I think personally, sometimes they're putting a bit too early in the like it, as I say again, to come in your foot. Calcane is is really you've already. They're gonna drop a particular low MLA. I'm just gonna put you an orthotic because that's to to straighten you up. But they haven't looked at Strength or range of motion or what else is going on and what's compensating for that too.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, because, if you don't address that first, maybe that will probably be right in the future. But if you don't dress the other issues are going on first. And settle all that done, especially if, like, maybe the anterior component is overfiring First of all to cause you find not to load the medial side of the foot. That needs to calm down first.
Speaker 1:
I think you're right, though, in that that is a massive part of it, in that it's very easy to over correct if you don't Focus on those issues of strength and mobility.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think so. And if you're just focusing on that one point and being, you know, planetary or paying, planetarciography being probably the most common issue, that you're just focusing on that and that we need to sort of Support the arch, but what's the rest of the foot doing? Yeah, what have you looked at? The whole picture when you looked at them walking, and that's where every sort of all my Approach to our products is completely, I suppose, changed.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah right though, because we've all we've actually many of us have spoken about this recently, about that Having that thought process that you've got to get. You have to get that foot and lower them aligned like the textbook. Yeah so let's just beef up the orthoses, and that's early on and without any consideration of the things you've just mentioned.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and also you know now there's plenty of research out there that a symptomatic flat fruits not and that's not. It's just a normal variation. So why do we then need to make it into this? Neutral, Is it? Is it you?
Speaker 1:
know whether you have relevant history of problems, isn't it?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, exactly, and what, and whether you've had previous injuries, or is this the first time this has happened to you?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, so this is where you're sort of at now. It's like focusing on that strength and control and range of motion and all the other things you can offer.
Speaker 2:
Yeah yes, yes, looking at the whole picture and you know a bit more Proximately as well, up the leg.
Speaker 1:
Sure, yeah, well, we spoke about running technique earlier on in this series as well, and that's a huge one as far as the influence of low limb and foot, so that's a perfect example. Just to remind people, go back and look at the running tech. Listen to the running technique episode. Yes, yes what are you actually using now, like 17 years later, after the early stages? What would you be using With Fiona balance foot studio?
Speaker 2:
as far as orthosis, Well, I think Depend depending on what the situation is. So obviously something that's more more. I have break it up into like three categories. Yeah, you know functional anatomical problems, where you know your Posture, atrial tendon dysfunction, or you know mid-through arthritis, that sort of thing where you're really concerned about an ongoing chronic issue. Then they're gonna go straight into I'm not gonna muck around too much with that that's gonna go straight into a customer thought it and probably be a bit more aggressive than then. Then what else that might use if it's more of flexible foot type. But definitely they're the kind of People that you're gonna be going right.
Speaker 2:
Okay, no, we need to be Looking at something to help you long term. The other one I put is like kids, you know that again, that hyper mobile, everted Calcane is low arch but in pain, not asymptomatic If they're asymptomatic, but I'm just reassuring the pain, the parents and the child, that it's it's, it's fine and we'll look again. Look at strength to make sure that there isn't anything that we can see that if they, especially if they're doing lots of sports we get a lot of dancers in as well, yeah, and we do a little bit of pre-point assessment sometimes for them as well, just making sure that they've got the capacity to.
Speaker 2:
To do the load that they've bought because of some of them. Just, it's amazing, that's incredible how much in the sports a lot of the kids do. But yes, those, those symptomatic Hyper mobile kids, are maybe going to be more inclined to put them in an orthotic, maybe sooner than I would an adult, because in terms of just making sure that the structures and the tissues are being supported and Because they're vulnerable and they may not also compliance so into doing the exercises that you set them. Yeah, although surprises some of the kids are quite good, they will do is they're asked, especially if you tell them you know it's gonna help them in the sport that they might want to do. And then the third is the probably the most common with the soft tissue injuries and overloading issues. And I Don't often use unless they've got a really gnarly foot type and there's a lot going on I tend to use more off the shelf right now.
Speaker 1:
So lots of preforms or thoses.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and again, I don't use orthosis a lot anymore. I find that good rehab that it's not often necessary or a heel lift will do the job.
Speaker 1:
Yeah. So looking at all the other things like lifts and wedges and shoes and strength, yeah, all the things that go around it, yeah. So if you are using preforms, what are you using?
Speaker 2:
At the moment we use form subjects. Yeah, I've used others in the past, but I find that they're easy to adjust, easy to keep space in the shoes, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:
And add things on, take things off.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
Rather than I've used other things in the past. I can remember the ICBs and foot bionics.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, there's hate to miss. Now there's something bionic, I know.
Speaker 2:
And I think that's a trouble as well. I'm not against using something different, but it's like this is working for me. Do I try something else? And I'm basically gonna pick a patient that then ends up not working Like I don't know where to go with that.
Speaker 1:
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:
It becomes like a bit of a crutch in itself that you safety net like well, I'll just stick with this. I don't really want to change it. I'm not against anything else, I just don't have to use many.
Speaker 1:
That's it isn't it. Yeah well, I think that's it. When you get on something that is useful for you and your style of practice, there's nothing wrong with sticking with it, is there? Yeah, I think that's what you learn over the years. To keep it simple which is I think what you've put across here today. You're just like keeping things pretty simple. It sounds like.
Speaker 2:
I think so, and I think that, as education education is so, so, so, so important for a patient and for them to have the capacity to look after themselves and empower them to go. Okay, I can do this.
Speaker 2:
Yeah whereas they've done all this stuff that's failed, or somebody who's really trying to get fit, and then something happens. They have this pain and then you say, right, we're going to put this sort of thought again and that can be more detrimental to them. They feel like their bodies failed them, that now I need this thing to function. Rather than going, no hold on, you can do X, Y and Z and if we need this, this will help you, support your tissues and help you to load more, and you'll be able to do more of the things that you want to do, and I think that's really. It's really really important. So, every time they have a positive experience anything then when you put in orthosis as well, it's going to be a positive experience rather than going this is rubbish. I don't like this. How many of you have that? I hate these. I hate these.
Speaker 2:
Whereas you can always say, always reiterating to them that we can adjust them or we can change them, and if we really don't like them, we are personally more than happy to either refund them, do a new one, whatever. Because, I haven't had to do it, don't think in the three years.
Speaker 1:
But it's a really good point. What you're talking about is getting it out there, and we've spoken a few times about this recently, about panartis doing more than just being a dispensary service for orthosis and focusing on strengthening and, like I said, running technique and things like that, which we don't often hear about from people. We spoke about that earlier in this in this series, but you sound like you're along those lines, which is great, yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:
I'm all for it, Because if you don't know why you're putting something in, you can't justify it. I had a young woman, a young Canadian lady, come into me from a physio with a lateral ankle sprain we wanted to put in orthotic but she wasn't weight bearing and she'd been booked in for surgery. But then once I spoke to them spoke to her, I said, well, what rehab have you been doing? It's really stiff and they've just been massaging. So it's like four or five months down the line and she's still on crutches and not making any weight bearing. And I was like, well, let's just, let's just hold off on that surgery there and I'm like I don't really know why an orthotic is going to help you, Like I think it's really important to set your ground on that too.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
You don't just put it in because somebody's told you and you're scared of what the outcome is if you don't do it. But I ended up just getting doing some really simple resistance stuff. To start with, I think seated calf raises, and in three, four days she emailed me going. I actually can wait for the first time in four or five months.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, cool.
Speaker 2:
And then she we ended up rehabbing her completely with the physios that we have and she didn't need surgery. So I think it's really important as well when to go. If you don't know why you're doing something, should you be doing it Like you know? And if you aren't sure, is there somebody you can talk to or learn more from? Is there another podiatrist that you can talk to? Or if there isn't a podiatrist, you can talk to. They're physical, you know whatever.
Speaker 1:
I think that's the importance of having a conservative approach though, too, which I mentioned earlier in other episodes that you learn how you help people, or put it this way earlier on you learn if you can help people and how you can do that, but secondary and more important than that is learning the patient's tolerance by being conservative.
Speaker 1:
Yes, Can I get there over the line or not? Is this patient going to be, like you know, beneficial? Is it going to be beneficial for the patient and can they tolerate it after years of adapting to themselves?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think it's crucial. Is it achievable?
Speaker 1:
Mm.
Speaker 2:
You know if you're putting your thought again. Have they got the appropriate shoes? Are they going to use them, or are, you know, summertime and we're in flip flops and sandals and whatnot you?
Speaker 2:
know, you've got to be realistic as well in those situations and talk to them about it too, and whether it's a shorter period of time that you're trying to offload the tissues and give them that say look, you're going to have to do this for six or eight weeks, three, and then we can go back to being wearing whatever you want. But you have to be realistic. If they're not going to wear them, they're not going to wear them. Yeah, and some people are just like no, no, don't want it.
Speaker 1:
That's it so what if you? What if you move on to like if you have to prescribe orthoses, like either casting or scanning? What are you doing there in that sort of capacity, if you do it all?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, you know, we do, we do, we do custom stuff. So 3D scanning with this with the iPad, which seems to work really well I wasn't, I was a bit like dubious about it, but we did it as because it was quite cost effective. Yeah, we're in your own business, so you have to think about these things. But yeah, and they work really well. But not, yeah, we don't do the doing like, obviously in as much of a neutral position as possible.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
Anything that's weight bearing, do it, and materials.
Speaker 1:
Is there sort of a variation of materials Do you use, or is it just like pretty sort of standard materials with your prescription devices?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and you know don't tend to use a lot of EVA.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, so using polypropylene, and that's just obviously. I don't know. You're probably using like three or four mil or something like that.
Speaker 2:
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:
And that's a standard material.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's a standard that we use and then, very as a savings, just a midfoot issue. I probably would very rarely use a custom, so it'd be more if there's other things going on and especially sort of if we need to support the lateral column and the forefoot. I think the forefoot is so so miss, so often missed in terms of our sources and correcting the forefoot and how much impact that has in propulsion and moving forward and stability through that mid stance phase to propulsion and the rear component, the rear foot as well. I think that's a massive thing. That comes into the clinic as well in terms of people not liking their products ahead before and they're a bit disillusioned. And you go, right, I'm going to make some new ones. Yeah, I think I'm confident that you might prefer these.
Speaker 1:
So can I ask you, just moving on from this just quickly.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
What are the most common problems that really fascinate you with your podiatry, because I can see your enthusiasm. What really drives you? What do you sort of love coming in the door?
Speaker 2:
It's probably nothing specific. I love to problem solve and I love the psychosocial side of it, which is probably fairly evident in all of this. So what I get my kicks from is knowing that you have listened to the person. The person that comes in and has been bumped around to a million people and feel like they have not been listened to, that's the person that I get probably the most out of that, when you sit with them and you talk to them and you start to understand what's going on and give them the ability to look after themselves and have, as I say, a positive experience and not use those negative terms or really big on trying to use positive words rather than negative terminology, or word salad, as they call it, and keeping it simple and then word salad.
Speaker 1:
I like that one.
Speaker 2:
Word salad. I stole that from Talisha, I think it's good yeah.
Speaker 2:
It's good and they have gone and been in pain for a long, long time chronic pain and then within a week they have felt better than they have for maybe years sometimes or 12 months, and a massive component of that is that faculty just were listened to and they feel like now there's some place that they can get to where they wanna be and that you've given them a good plan. And you say it may vary, it may not be exactly to this, but this is what we're gonna do and hopefully, if we get a positive response, we'll move from that forward. That's what I kinda get my kicks off. Nothing specific. I think it's more that.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, the patient management stuff.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it should really be so. I love it. Fantastic Well like.
Speaker 1:
I said but both of you give off the most fantastic vibe and that you just focused on that. That's what you're getting off on is like the patient experience side of things. I love it.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and that's what I hope it should be about for everyone. That's what we go into these industries and to healthcare. It's about the patient, about getting the best out of for their lives and something that may seem particularly small to us and nothing can really impact the whole whole life and we're not to judge that. We cannot judge that what somebody I think I was told in university that what we might perceive as a one out of 10 pain that person thinks is a 10 out of 10 pain. We need to listen to them and not just go. Well, that's nothing.
Speaker 1:
But to them it's a division and we forget that their problem becomes so central to their day and their life. And if you don't step in those people's shoes or have some history of problems yourself, it's hard to imagine that. But you can imagine if you're carrying a shoulder problem you can't go out and hang the washing up or whatever that's right.
Speaker 1:
And do a whole lot of other things in the day that that shoulder becomes so centralized to you and your day and month after month and year after year. It's just so shit and so draining yeah, absolutely, and that's what happens at foot and low limb all the time, though.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, all the time, because it's constant. You can't go to the toilet without blocking the day in the corridor. There's nothing. Have somebody chronic pain? You just wanted to vacuum the house. That's all they wanted to do is vacuum and that seems such a mundane thing. I don't want to vacuum my house, to be perfectly honest, but those mundane things like being able to stand and if you can give that back to that person, I mean that's just for them. It's monumentous.
Speaker 2:
To us it might be really trivial, but somebody in a position like that, that's huge in their day to day life. So I think that's where I get my kicks.
Speaker 1:
Perfect. Hey, thanks so much for coming on Simply.
Speaker 2:
The Best of Art.
Speaker 1:
Drew, you and I have been trying to link up for a long time and we finally are here. But that's life, isn't it? From both ends.
Speaker 2:
It is, but I really appreciate you coming on and I've been looking forward to having you here and I am going to come down and see you for sure. Absolutely, we can have a wine on the seaport. There's a washfront there. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:
Lovely. That's why I'm coming.
Speaker 2:
Fabulous, all right.
Speaker 1:
Hey, thanks for being here. See you soon.
Speaker 2:
See you.
Speaker 1:
Thanks for listening to Simply the Best of Art Drew. You can get more details of this episode from the show notes, where you can also follow and support this show. You can also follow the show on Instagram at Simply the Best of Art Drew. Stay tuned and I'll be with you again shortly. Thanks for listening.
