A Life in Six Songs
Ep. 7 - Notes of Hope: Change, Trauma, and the Family Bonds of Music
Join us on this musical journey with our guest, Sarah Mahmood, where we go from her first encounter with System of a Down's 'Chop Suey!' at age 7 to the “dance it out” release of 'La Mama de La Mama' during her demanding pharmacy residency. Sarah's story includes a move to Pakistan at nine and the traumatizing incident of bombs going off near her school. The Beatles' 'Hey Jude' and Kanye West's 'Flashing Lights' served as her therapeutic anchor during these challenging times. Our conversation illuminates the gravity of acknowledging trauma and seeking help. Mumford & Sons and Muse round out her songs. We finish with Sarah's entrepreneurial journey of producing educational content through her TikTok account, @PharmacyToks and her small business, Pharmacy Guides. Pull up a folding chair, grab a drink, find a spot around the fire, and enjoy the conversation and community.
Check out Pharmacy Guides on Etsy
Follow your hosts David, Raza, and Carolina every week as they embark on an epic adventure to find the songs that are stuck to us like audible tattoos to tell the story of who we are and where we’ve been. It’s a life story told through 6 songs. Take a listen, and, if you have someone whose life you’d like to hear in 6 songs, let us know.
WHO WE ARE
DAVID: Creator & Host @ALifeinSixSongs
Drummer | Educator | Philosopher | Combat Veteran | PTSD Advocate
CAROLINA: Co-Host @ALifeinSixSongs
Storyteller | Head of Learning & Development Services @ReadySet
RAZA: Co-Host @ALifeinSixSongs
Guitarist | Lawyer | Solo Project @Solamente.Band
- Liked songs from this life story? Check out A Life in Six Songs playlist on Apple Music and Spotify
- Follow A Life in Six Songs on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube
- Support our work!
- Subscribe to our YouTube channel
- Don’t keep us all to yourself!
Copyright Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, commentary, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit or educational use tips the balance in favor of fair use. The original work played in this video has been significantly transformed for the purpose of commentary, criticism, and education.
Join us on this musical journey with our guest, Sarah Mahmood, where we go from her first encounter with System of a Down's 'Chop Suey!' at age 7 to the “dance it out” release of 'La Mama de La Mama' during her demanding pharmacy residency. Sarah's story includes a move to Pakistan at nine and the traumatizing incident of bombs going off near her school. The Beatles' 'Hey Jude' and Kanye West's 'Flashing Lights' served as her therapeutic anchor during these challenging times. Our conversation illuminates the gravity of acknowledging trauma and seeking help. Mumford & Sons and Muse round out her songs. We finish with Sarah's entrepreneurial journey of producing educational content through her TikTok account, @PharmacyToks and her small business, Pharmacy Guides. Pull up a folding chair, grab a drink, find a spot around the fire, and enjoy the conversation and community.
Check out Pharmacy Guides on Etsy
Follow your hosts David, Raza, and Carolina every week as they embark on an epic adventure to find the songs that are stuck to us like audible tattoos to tell the story of who we are and where we’ve been. It’s a life story told through 6 songs. Take a listen, and, if you have someone whose life you’d like to hear in 6 songs, let us know.
WHO WE ARE
DAVID: Creator & Host @ALifeinSixSongs
Drummer | Educator | Philosopher | Combat Veteran | PTSD Advocate
CAROLINA: Co-Host @ALifeinSixSongs
Storyteller | Head of Learning & Development Services @ReadySet
RAZA: Co-Host @ALifeinSixSongs
Guitarist | Lawyer | Solo Project @Solamente.Band
- Liked songs from this life story? Check out A Life in Six Songs playlist on Apple Music and Spotify
- Follow A Life in Six Songs on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube
- Support our work!
- Subscribe to our YouTube channel
- Don’t keep us all to yourself!
Copyright Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, commentary, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit or educational use tips the balance in favor of fair use. The original work played in this video has been significantly transformed for the purpose of commentary, criticism, and education.
there was an embassy right next door to our school, so we were kind of like congregating there. And then I looked to my left and two more bombs went off, like right in front of me. It was across the street. So you know, like what we saw? We saw the smoke and everything.
Speaker 3:Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of A Life in Sick Songs. I am your host, david Rees, and I'm joined by my co-host, carolina, and my childhood friend, raza. Hey, hey, hey.
Speaker 3:Hey, and you know, hey, we're so happy you're tuning in to another episode and, you know, are joining us on these conversations. You know we like to think of it as we're sitting around the fire, out back, having some drinks and, just, you know, telling stories. So, you know, pull up your folding chair and you know, sit back and enjoy the conversation. Our guest today is Sarah Mahmoud. She is a clinical pharmacist from the DC area with a flair for entrepreneurship, having founded a small business that crafts study guides for both aspiring and practicing health professionals. Beyond these professional endeavors, she is a passionate mental health advocate. She is the youngest of three siblings, with a significant age gap between them, and you might recognize her older brother, who happens to be one of our co-host, raza Sarah, welcome to A Life in Sick Songs.
Speaker 1:Thank you, I'm very excited to be here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're excited to have you. So before we dive into your, your six, just kind of a broad, kind of question give you a chance to you know, share with us just you know what? What role has music played in your life? How do you see music in your life?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great question. I actually I think of music as it is my life. You know I was exposed at basically from the womb. I come from a very musical family. I'm pretty sure my siblings would be playing music when my mom was pregnant.
Speaker 1:We were yeah, so I literally grew up on classic rock, heavy metal, and I just associate it with every key moment in my life. You know, keep people who I've met. I can tie them to some sort of song. So it's gotten me through good times, bad times. So it really just it's my life. I love it.
Speaker 3:Great thanks for that. Yeah, we're excited to chat. All right, carolina, take us into our first question.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely. Um, we're gonna just start at the beginning. Right, you talked about hearing music. You think like in the womb, which is so special. I'm sure there's like a lot of science behind what happens, like in your door, of listening to music. But you know we'll, we'll transition to just an early age for your first question and first song. What is a memorable time when you were first exposed to maybe a band or an artist's music?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think a lot of my exposure comes from my brother, raza. Again, he's always playing music. When I, my earliest memory was just him jamming to songs, playing the drums guitar. He's always listening to music and I remember we were in our computer area in south Florida and he played Chop Suey by System of a Down and I just remember loving it. I love the drums. I thought it was funny. The lyrics obviously don't really make sense, especially for a seven-year-old, but I just I became obsessed and I would always have him play it 24-7 for me when he'd visit from college oh, that's awesome let's take a quick listen all right, I didn't realize.
Speaker 5:I brought your attention to that song, that's you did yeah, you played it.
Speaker 1:You were visiting from college once and just played it. I think our uncle gave you a CD of these random rock songs and this was one of them yeah, no that was that was really old stuff.
Speaker 5:That was like in the 80s and 90s. This one I remember this was like 2000, 2001 or so.
Speaker 1:So I met yeah, it was probably like love, junior, senior year in college and visiting and saying hey right, yeah we're listening to up in college young and I was seven, and just imagine a seven-year-old knowing every single word of the song. That's how much I played it that is awesome.
Speaker 3:You know we we've talked a lot, yeah, we, just we, you know, we we talked a lot on the show about, you know, and it's kind of one of a theme of these, of the the show in the sense of, like these songs that find their way to us and how, just you know, chance it is right, and so you know, if raza doesn't come home, that that one break in college and decides to go to cancun instead, right, and and doesn't play system of a down for you, right, you, you have a completely different trajectory and so it's just so like just fascinating the, the way we kind of get these little, little nuggets exactly, yeah, so I would look forward to him coming, because I was only three years old when he went to college, so I get very excited every time he'd visit.
Speaker 5:Yeah, you were the baby, I mean still are right and a lot of ways still are. Yeah, it's like because my, my mental image of you is three years old, for better or worse. It's like yeah, no, no, no, not clinical pharmacists.
Speaker 4:It's like you know, it's the girl with the cheeks oh, but yeah yeah well, and I think about just how kids are just sponges, um, and a lot of times when you're little like you get the lullabies and like the songs that are in your cartoons and and stuff like that. But like the pivotal role that sometimes parents who like veer from that and are just like listening to whatever they jam out to, or the like deep impact of the older siblings and like what that has on you as a kid you're just like soaking that all up and I mean chop suey. Like melted my face when I first heard it, right, so I can only imagine.
Speaker 4:At seven you're like this is amazing, this he's like yelling but it's like so, like funky and cool, and you just like want to sing it right all the time.
Speaker 3:Exactly so catchy yeah, man, it's so funny because I think like in one way, system of a down is like wild for a seven-year-old to be listening to, but in another way a lot of the lyrics are so like it almost could be from like a kids show, right he's just saying so ridiculous at times, and I you know I love them for that too. In that sense, they've either got like these lyrics that are kind of nonsensey, or they're, like, like you know, talking about real, like refugee issues and like all international stuff.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, so cool. Yeah, I don't know if you guys remember, but this is this song. I'm gonna get a little bit sort of historical and nerdy here, but this was I, if I remember correctly. I'm almost positive this was 2001 and I'm I think it's right around the time of 9-11. By the way I said I mean I'm sorry, I'm sure you've heard sort of part of our intro, but so Dave is a veteran and he was deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq right after 9-11, and I remember in 2001 there was this this big like stream of really heavy rock, new metal they call it right, new metal that was coming out, and a lot of it ended up. Also, there was questions about okay, is this, is this the right time for us to be playing this type of stuff on, like you know, whether MTV or or on the radio slipknot, you know, iowa came out. I think I'm almost positive this song came out right around that time.
Speaker 5:I remember Rob Zombie his second album came out around this time too, and there was a big sort of hoopla over is. Is heavy music relevant? Is it right, is it appropriate to play heavy music post 9-11 because the country is in mourning, we're potentially going to war, all this other stuff. So, yeah, and I remember that. So the Rob Zombie song that was out he purposely, sort of, I think, was that song feel so numb and people were thinking, well, you know Rob Zombie, you know corpses and zombies and all this other stuff.
Speaker 5:He's like no, no, no, no, I'm gonna include incorporate patriotism into the video for that song. I think feel so numb, wow, and and and it starts with just this, it's like a silhouette of the zombie band against, you know, against against the American flag, and it's like the coolest incorporate incorporation of, like zombie cheerleaders and it's like, dude, heavy music can be patriotic too without being, you know. And I think that was one of those times where they sort of found this happy middle between, okay, let's move forward, let's enjoy music and you know the other serious stuff going on. But there is a spot for entertainment as well, and then and now, look at us, we are partying all the time.
Speaker 4:I mean, I think that that's what can be so misguided, dangerous, whatever you want to call it about, kind of policing the music we listen to. You can listen to a song like Chop Suey and I'll say for our listeners, the, the excerpt that David played feels, you know, just kind of yelly and intense. But this song is a ride like it takes you through a really melodic chorus and then it gets like just really loud. You feel like you're on this like musical roller coaster, if you will, and so you. You could just make broad, biased assumptions about that, that kind of music. But at the end of the day I think we can't control what makes us feel good, right, what like gives us life and energy and like pumps us up. And it's not always the thing you think it would be right. It's not always like the cheerful, happy pop song or the, the romantic he loves song, like you know.
Speaker 1:I don't know, sorry, you might understand this more from like a medical perspective, but like oh my nervous system like whatever hits us, you can't sort of control that yeah, I was actually listening to this while getting ready this morning for this podcast and it like it hyped me up, it was crazy, put me in such a good mood.
Speaker 1:I like I heard it after years and I still remember every lyric like it's so crazy. This song just had such a big impact on my life, and so you said it came out in around 2001, and 2003 is when I moved to Pakistan with my parents, so this exposed me to System of a Down, so I love all of their songs pretty much. And then it started to get a lot more relevant to me because, you know, the political scene in Pakistan got kind of crazy. So I'm like, wow, this is actually. I thought it was just like gibberish at first or nonsense, like we said, but started to get a lot more relevant with songs of this band. So I continue to listen to it for years so at seven, it wasn't scary for you.
Speaker 5:Listening to this was not scary.
Speaker 1:I thought it was hilarious talking about waking up and putting makeup on like that's all. Yeah, I didn't really listen to the lyrics you right. I know, yeah, it wasn't the lyrics of the song, it was just like the drums. The drums made me think of you, and the guitars and everything it was like.
Speaker 5:This just reminds me of my brother the musician yeah, all these scary guys would like really funny haired. Yeah, yelling and screaming, and then you eat cereal with them in the morning yeah, I literally reminded them of all your friends, like your band friends. I'm one of them right now.
Speaker 3:They're not scary yeah, that's awesome that's hilarious, yeah, I, um, I had like so many different thoughts. We brought up so many different things there about, you know, power of music and older siblings and war and 9-11 and things and um, yeah that was a lot. That was a lot and and there's, you know, going back to that, just a little bit of like history system of it down. Has, you know, connections in this way? Because I want to say it's the guitarist is Iraqi-American actually I don't even know he's Iraqi-American, armenian, armenian.
Speaker 3:Armenian and and someone well, someone has an Iraqi connection. I think one of them has family that was in Iraq. Again, we've already talked about this of like not trying to do live info that we haven't sort of vetted and checked yet. But yeah, and I think I remember a system of down, you know being at the kind of center of a lot of these discussions, raza, that you mentioned when, you know, after the war in Afghanistan started, the war in Iraq started and things, and they were kind of right there at that center of that point you were bringing up of how do we, how do we do this now, how do we still fight for social justice and these things while you know this, this time of war and stuff. So yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really important historical.
Speaker 5:You know context there and um, yeah, I think sometimes just acknowledging that yes, in the last 20 plus year we've been through a lot is, um, like a lot has happened, um, and I think sometimes we lose sight of that and it's okay to appreciate all of it. You know the good, the bad, the, the ugly, the um, uh, the uh, and then I think all of it has impact right and it and it for different people that things impact different way. There's obviously a shared experience as well, and we're trying to get to the shared part and highlight that more and more or most of all.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it's all experiences, right yeah, we're interviewing Sarah, not political history and everything. So let's let's get. Uh, let's get. We'll get back focused. Here it's life.
Speaker 4:It's music and and life and they're deeply, deeply intertwined, um, but I'll keep us. I'll keep us moving ahead, um, with continuing that sort of thread of like you never know what's gonna hit or what's gonna make you feel good, or what you know and it might not always like make sense and in the moment, um, and so you'll understand when we hear the next song. But, uh, for your next question, what's a song that that has helped you through a difficult time and situation or situation, and what was it?
Speaker 1:yeah, so first song that came to mind was lama ma lama. I don't know if I said that right by l alpha um very upbeat song. It reminded me of recently. Wait, sorry, I don't know, I was going with that one second.
Speaker 4:I can re-ask, no worries, yeah, yeah sure, yeah, um, yeah so we're, so we're, we're.
Speaker 3:This is the question. We're talking about being on the clinical rotations and codes and yeah, yeah, so for you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so for your next song, um, the. The prompt here is what's a song that has helped you through a difficult time or situation? Uh, and what was it?
Speaker 1:yeah, so the first song that comes to mind is la mama de lama by l alpha. Very upbeat song, very happy song, um, but when I hear it it reminds me of some very difficult days when I was on my clinical rotations uh, for pharmacy, I was doing a pharmacy residency and it was just a very intense time period, um. So this is a song that kind of helped me get through that let's take a listen.
Speaker 3:That's good stuff.
Speaker 4:How? How does it feel listening to it now?
Speaker 1:You know it'll always put me in a good mood. Again, I was also listening to this. I was listening to all six songs getting ready this morning and I was yes, I was just like twerking while getting ready for ever put me in a good mood.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I can imagine particularly.
Speaker 4:I don't have a medical background but you know intense times in your life, like you know, residencies are, you know, just dealing with with patients, tough situations, really difficult outcomes, like for folks in the medical profession. How do you recover recharge from just the difficulties of what you see just day in and day out?
Speaker 1:Yeah, very difficult. So one thing about residency is that you're still kind of in training, so a lot of people don't really know what they're doing yet. But then you're still a licensed pharmacist so you have all that responsibility still. So it's just a really scary time. And then you have crazy hours, working up to 80 hours a week, some shifts like I'll have a normal nine to five of rotation and then after that I'll be on call or just staffing at the normal pharmacy, so it turns out to be like a 16 hour day and you're so tired and then all of a sudden your pager will go off, like somewhat the code blue cardiac arrest. So as a pharmacist at a hospital, we're one of the first responders. We're the ones who have all the medications that we run like we run the whole team runs to the patient.
Speaker 1:Everyone's freaking out. Doctors are like where's the pharmacist? Where's the pharmacist? We need a pharmacist here right now. And even in pharmacy school I did not know I was going to be doing all of this, so it was just so crazy, so I'd be running. I'm tired as hell. There's a patient literally dying next to me and on the spot, I have to think of every medication, like what's the right medication to give? I have to draw it up on the spot, pushing the drugs or giving it to the provider, telling them exactly what to do. Like the doctors are relying on the pharmacist for all that information, doing math on the spot. So it's just a lot, and a lot of times, thankfully, the patient was able to survive. But then there's some where they don't, and that's it was just so crazy. I'm like, wow, someone literally just died in front of, like inches away from me, and then you know, you see their family they're crying and it's just like a really intense emotional experience.
Speaker 3:So I can imagine. I mean and now you know some people might be wondering again, like you know, how does this song Work into that? Like you just described, you know this terribly difficult time and then this is the song attached with it. Were you listening to this song and songs like it like right in the moment, like right after the code, and you got five minutes to breathe? Would you like go to a you know a closet somewhere and you know kind of put this on to pump it up? Or was this more like after the days over and you're driving home or something like that? Are you putting this?
Speaker 1:music on. I wish I could listen to it right after, because you're just so winded after that. But unfortunately you're done with the code and then you have to go straight back to work, like that's how intense it is, so I didn't even have time to listen to it. So, more so, after the days over I come home, you're kind of in like panic mode and you know you're you just, I don't know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4:Sorry, it's like you're just like a fight or flight on the ground, yeah it's a lot of adrenaline.
Speaker 1:You're in fight or flight mode, you're still kind of pumped, so you just go back to work, finish everything. But then, yeah, the second I would get home to a silent apartment alone. That's when I could actually process like what the heck just happened. So I'm like, wow, I'm not okay right now. I just dealt with a lot. Yeah, I can't even sleep right now, so I would just play. I'm like I need to listen to music, I need to dance or something like get this out of my system. I don't work out, so that's not my life. So I'm like I need to just yeah, I need to dance.
Speaker 1:So I'll play bad buddy.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm like I just I need to find like the twerkiest song and just twerk it out, and then I can go to sleep and then do it all again the next day.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so is it in the emergency room setting? You know, and again, I have no reference point, so I think I should ask you as a, as the, as the, as the professional so is it like in the movies and in the TV series where it's super high intensity, there's stuff going on, okay, you know, stretchers coming through and ambulances and and and and. You know everything stat, you know, because, compared to the legal world, right like lawyer shows are, I think, exaggerated, they're overly hyped, they're overly dramatized. It's usually actually pretty boring to go to court. It's like very standard, methodical and and up down vote, yes, no, you know, wins, losses, whatever, so so, but but the ER experience, is it sort of accurately depicted? What's your experience been like?
Speaker 1:It is. It's pretty similar because even in that moment I'm like, wow, this is just like Grey's Anatomy. Yeah, I felt like I was on an episode of Grey's Anatomy and like, wow, this is what I always dreamed of doing. And now I'm actually here and it's a little intense. So, yeah, I think that's probably the most accurate representation, not all Grey's. Anatomy is accurate. I actually was watching a few episodes. I'm like that's not right, that's not the right medication. Yeah, what are they talking about?
Speaker 4:That's funny, that's good. I think I worked in a yard for for a few years not not on the medical side, on the operations side but I did witness my fair share of codes and things like that. I think on the patient side you, you it can be like misrepresented on on TV or things just how many people respond to a code Like that? Room is bursting at this.
Speaker 4:It's packed full of respiratory folks, pharmacy folks, physicians nurses in and out the EMTs and paramedics that like maybe brought the person or like, I mean, these rooms are like packed, and so this is this is that gentle moment for folks. If you ever go to an ER and you're waiting a really long time and you haven't seen anybody in a bed, it's cause, you know, everybody all hands on deck might be trying to save somebody, and so patients it's crazy. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then some people have like 10 family members in the room too and you know they want, some really want to be there and you have to respect that.
Speaker 4:So we allow all of them in there too, and it's just a mess, yeah, and all the things, if, if, if that person is crashing due to some sort of violence, up there's police everywhere. I mean the amount of people is. I don't, I don't think folks, folks realize that unless you sort of work in that world.
Speaker 4:All right, we will. We will pivot and transition out of challenging situations, because you do have a life outside of your clinical and pharmacy life. So for for your next song, and prompt here, what's? A song that is intimately connected to just another activity.
Speaker 1:For this one first thing that came to mind was hopeless wanderer by Mumford and Sons, and this reminds me of my favorite activity, of just hanging out with my dad chilling after a long day of work. My dad, he, loves music. I think he's the one who exposed my brother and me to music very on, so we have very similar music tastes and personalities. So this is just one of the songs that reminds me of spending time with him All right let's take a listen.
Speaker 2:Hold me fast. Hold me fast because I'm a hopeless wanderer. Hold me fast. Hold me fast because I'm a hopeless wanderer. Now we're locked. Now we're locked. Love the skies, I'm a day.
Speaker 4:Now we're locked. How does it feel listening to it now?
Speaker 1:Just makes me think of my dad every time. That whole album, actually Babel by Mumford and Sons. I think my sister gifted that to my dad. She's like I think you'll really like this. So I guess, just for some background, my dad he also worked for Bose for a while, the speaker company.
Speaker 1:So, every corner of our house. My brother knows this. There's a Bose speaker somewhere. So he actually has the famous 901 speakers, like the massive wooden ones that he put in our living room that they just sound so amazing, and he just he'll listen to everything on that. He listens to Drake on that, like everything. Yeah, imagine a 74 year old man listening to. Drake, just like the beat. It just sounds so good and you can really hear every instrument and every note of every instrument being played.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we did a hand pointed that.
Speaker 5:So he's, he's an audiophile right, he's, it's, it's not necessary.
Speaker 4:I don't know that, but I think wow.
Speaker 5:Yeah, this is, yeah, this is now. That's so much more perspective, right, yeah, yeah, so it's not. It's not the words, it's not, it's not any one particular thing, it's not. You know what's an artist saying? It's okay, well, how does the bass sound? Where are the mids? Like it's reactive, like that. I think something about that. It's very, I guess, holistic, organic. And he's like yeah, I mean, check out the stereo effect on this, and it could be the violinist, like you know, like two life crew, I don't know.
Speaker 2:You know it's like oh man, the bass really hit really hard.
Speaker 5:It's like, dad, do you have any idea what they're saying? I don't care Exactly, wow.
Speaker 3:Do you instrument of?
Speaker 5:the speakers.
Speaker 3:Do either of you know really, because you said you know he worked at Bose and so you know, had all this did. Did the working at Bose come from being an audio file, or was it the other way around? Did he happen to get a job at Bose and then being around it like that grew?
Speaker 5:Yeah, so he's, he got his first. Like when I was born, he already had his first set of Bose speakers, I think. Oh, because I've always, he's always had some, some set of Bose speakers. So I think it was more like a fan type thing. It's like being a guitarist all your life retiring and then, just for shits and giggles, you go work at guitar center just to be around it.
Speaker 5:So, that's kind of the context. You know, our dad retired a few years ago and I think, yeah, just to keep busy and being, you know, and staying active and keeping the like the nerves firing and staying with it. He's very interested in staying, you know, relevant in our around, the people around him and what are they up to, and that's how he keeps up the date. So Bose was one way, I think, of doing that. Plus he got little perks and stuff as well.
Speaker 4:I mean, I'm checking on you, David, if you're okay, because I think that's like one of your dreams is to have like speakers.
Speaker 3:Oh, I know Really.
Speaker 4:If you're watching the video, watching David's face and the grinding- videos of science having speakers everywhere.
Speaker 3:I'm thinking back to my dad, and my dad was audiophile on that way too. We had, you know, he was the one that like, climbed up in the attic to run the one speaker wire to get that back right surround sound speaker going because the wires had to be hidden and you know you had to have that. But he did not work at Bose, he worked at a fruit company as an accountant and so we got a lot of free fruit and stuff like that, but that's, I don't think, as cool as Bose speakers and stuff. So yeah, a little envious there, and I think my dad would be too. I think my dad would say, hey, why couldn't? I've been an accountant for Bose.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, it's so funny, he's so cute. And it's odd hearing SARS version of the same Because. I have a similar but like I think there's a big time gap as well, so it's funny.
Speaker 1:Again, he plays Drake for me. My dad actually got me into Drake because I guess he was playing it for some client at the Bose store, I don't know. So he's like have you heard that Drake? Song Like no. Why are you listening to Drake?
Speaker 4:What comes to mind for me, I think sometimes we, you know, they're just our parents, right, like we take for granted, like it's just dad. But like just how cool it is that you have a parent in his seventies now is he, yeah who has just such an open mind and perspective to all different kinds of music. You know, I think that's really rare and just how lucky are the two of you. Like that's so cool, so fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember I was driving his car once and the music that was playing it was like techno. Like dad, what are you doing on full volume? I'm like this is a Bose music right here. That's so great.
Speaker 3:And so, just like you know, I think you know there's an important lesson in there for us younger folks here right Of how to you know, live your life and be. You know, like at 74, you could say like I've seen it all. You all don't know anything, and I'm. You know this, but you know that's a way to be miserable. And so you can. You can say, hey, there's a world around me with all this exciting stuff and so let me just soak it in.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Well, I think yeah, I mean a lesson for us as we get older, a lesson for those of us who are parents and parents who are listening. But I hear just in my side gig lots of conversations around just intergenerational relationships and how we have folks much older still in the workplace and how just those folks with like Gen Z, how everybody's getting along, and so I love your dad's sort of attitude of like just staying young and like, yeah, I want to listen to that. I don't care what it is, you know, I think that's a role model for all of us and I'm just going to go ahead and invite him on the show. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:It would be a good job.
Speaker 4:All right. So you know, as as as we're talking through your songs and all of these memories that come up, you know there's sort of the the difficult challenges with work, but our lives sometimes take turns and we have to transition and pivot a lot throughout our lives. It's been actually a common theme with with a lot of our guests is how folks navigate weighty transitions. So for your next song, and prompt what? What is that song that you associate with a weighty transition in your life and what was it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this one also kind of going off the dad thing. So my dad exposed me to hey Jude by the Beatles. He was an Abbot Beatles fan so he exposed me to that during transition. So the first major transition in my life was moving from South Florida to Pakistan when I was nine and he exposed me to this song kind of around that time. So every time I hear it it sort of takes me back.
Speaker 3:Let's take a listen.
Speaker 4:How does it feel?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was great, yeah, and even listening to it now I feel like this is such a positive song. That kind of it still gets me through tough times and transition. So again, the move to Pakistan was probably the biggest first transition in my life and I remember so once we moved there I hadn't, I wasn't starting school yet. I was homeschooled for about six months. So I was kind of alone, didn't have friends yet, didn't know anyone. So again, I would kind of use music to help me get through that transition and this was my favorite song at the time.
Speaker 1:I did play the piano for a few years. I took lessons when I was little, and then this became the first song that I learned how to play by ear. So that was really cool. So I started playing this every day just during that time when I really had nothing else to do. And I actually remember I had a little book where I could read and write music a little bit. So I actually wrote the notes of the song too.
Speaker 1:I learned piano in Florida before, like before that move, and then I still I brought my keyboard with me to Pakistan and I didn't have lessons anymore obviously. So I just started playing everything by ear, and hey Jude was the first song that I started playing by ear, and once I finally nailed it, I wrote all the notes in this little book. And just last month I was going through my closet. I'm back home now and I actually found that same book of all these songs that I wrote as a nine-year-old and I drew like little pictures and graphics along with it and I was like, wow, I really did that. Aww.
Speaker 4:Aww yeah. And that's hard. The line is you've started to make friends in your neighborhood and moving to, just, despite being of Pakistani heritage, still moving to another country, leaving what you've known your whole life. Yeah, it's really hard at that age.
Speaker 1:It was hard. I remember landing and I'm like where who guys brought me? There's like donkeys on the street, the traffic. There's no concept of lanes and traffic or traffic lights. It was just so chaotic. People shouting on the streets. I'm like, what is this place? I'm American.
Speaker 3:It's true, that's yeah, and it's funny, carolina, like you said, you know, like you all are Pakistani Americans and so you are not an entire foreigner going back. But that can almost make it worse, I think, in some ways, because you're sort of like I should get this more. I should feel you know, like you know, and so, yeah, that's a struggle. You're going back to a place that you, you is part of you, but you you're not, like you said, you're a foreigner. You're a group in the States, you know, and, yeah, that can be, that can be a challenge.
Speaker 1:Exactly. And then finally starting school. That was a transition in and of itself because I was like American girl with American accent and I'd get made fun of for that, whereas when I moved back to the States after that I kind of had a Pakistani accent, so I'd get made fun of for that too. So it's like wherever I am, I'm still an outcast. I guess it was hard.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's, that's a thing as an immigrant myself. I was born in Latin America, I was born in Colombia, I moved to the United States and, and I don't know, Rob, if you feel this way too but sometimes you can just feel like you don't fit in anywhere, Like you're not of your home country enough to get like all the slang and all the jokes and all the stuff. But you don't. You're not as American as apple pie either, because you come with all of this like heritage. You know that's different with you, and so sometimes, yeah, I feel just like just nomadic, Like what? What am I?
Speaker 1:Am I exactly?
Speaker 5:I have this odd, so it must be. I must be an oddball in this and in that. I actually have not felt out of place anywhere. I didn't. I'm very yeah, Well, yeah. I'm very lawyer.
Speaker 5:Like, I'm very comfortable with the fact that I was born in Lahore, pakistan. I speak the language fluently, I understand, like all of it, and I'm also, like, equally comfortable living in America, being, you know, an attorney by training and and, and you know, enjoying like the nuances of everything that's considered American, because that in itself has all sorts of different nuances and, you know, where does an immigrant sort of fit into that? And I've definitely had these kinds of conversations and I've thought about it. It's like am I Pakistani, am I American? Am I half this, that the other? You know, what am I? What are my kids? Where's my family? Like I've sort of grappled with all of that.
Speaker 5:But honestly, I feel very, very comfortable, and I hate to take this back to 9-11, but that was probably the only time where I, I, I, I had some really distinct thoughts about, okay, culturally, where do I fit into this horrific event that just happened? Yeah, and I don't want to go off in tangent but, but yeah, so I. So I thought about it and I've thought about it over over many years and decades, and now, you know, as a parent and things like that, but, and and I've traveled back to Pakistan and I visited and I felt just as Pakistani there is like yo high five, let's play cricket, you know, and. And then coming, and then arriving back, and whether it was Houston or or, or New York, or whatever it's like you know, we'd land, I land back at the airport, I high five the customs guy who signs my passport and I'm on my way. Maybe I'm lucky in that way, I don't know, because obviously, you know, there's all sorts of lists and things like that.
Speaker 5:Those, those are facts. Some people are discriminated against, some people are. You know, I've seen lineups and stuff traveling to Europe. You know, here comes the Pakistan air, the PIA flight, landing in, I guess, london and the entire, the entire plane. The list of passengers has to have a separate line. This was many, many years ago and they check and double check and confirm and reconfirm status and visas and blah, blah, blah. There's dogs, I get it Like. I know that it exists. But me personally, my experience has by and large been, you know, okay, I'm good, I'm good here, I'm good there, I'm good everywhere.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, but that's my experience kind of sucked, like the complete opposite. I was always kind of a shy person growing up, so these transitions were really hard for me. So, unlike my brother, I wasn't fluent in Urdu when we moved there.
Speaker 1:I always I was able to understand it. I spoke Urdu up until I was maybe three years old and then, once I went to preschool and was, you know, learning from an American schooling, I just I started speaking English and only English from there on. So when I moved to Pakistan and everyone's speaking Urdu, I'm like I, I understand you, but like I would always respond in English and then I feel like they'd give me a weird look. So that was hard for me. Teachers would pick on me. There, the teachers, they're kind of mean and scary, Like we had an Urdu class, just like an English class here, and feel like they'd purposefully call me out and like okay, sorry, you tell me what, what this is, and like tell me your thoughts on this thing and I'd start talking in English and then you're like no, in Urdu, and then I just freeze. And that's actually where a lot of my social anxiety stemmed from thinking back. So it was rough for me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I could. I could totally get that, like you know, and that goes back, I think, to a little bit of what I was thinking about before of like there's an expectation right Of of you should be speaking this, you should know this, and you know Carolina talks about that in in, in the Latin culture of like if your kid doesn't, you know, it's like they should speak English, because that's why we moved to the States and you got to, you know, succeed and whatever, but at the same time, like what, they don't speak Spanish. That's terrible. You know in this and that, and so I'm glad you brought that up because I was gonna. That was a question I had in my my head about language. Right, where was your fluency when you moved? And I think that can speak to you a little bit of the different experiences in that way of like you were saying of, of being raised and born in the US and then going back and that that struggle.
Speaker 1:It was hard, yeah, and I was. So I briefly talked about that six month period where I was homeschooled. So my mom actually homeschooled me and she taught me how to read and write in Urdu from scratch. So by the time I started the fourth grade I could read and write. So they kind of assumed that I knew Urdu. So they put me in the same advanced class as everyone else. But inside I'm like I can't talk though. Like what is this? Like, yes, I get, I can understand it, I can write, and if you ask me to answer a question out loud, I'll freeze. And that's literally where my social anxiety came from, because they would do that, they would call on me all the time. So it was hard.
Speaker 5:But, slowly.
Speaker 1:As the years progressed, I got more comfortable speaking in Urdu with my friends because everyone speaks English and Urdu there. So I got a little bit more comfortable, but it was definitely a rough transition.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so so any teachers listening out there you know there's a kind, supportive way to challenge their students and then a way that can can cause them anxiety and issues later on. So you got to find that that balance. Be kind, be kind.
Speaker 5:Be kind always. Maybe the token Pakistan teacher. What is this kindness? My God, yeah, I would show you kindness, you get something wrong there.
Speaker 1:They're like literally throw your book across the room. Oh yeah, Context.
Speaker 5:Maybe I can add a little bit of context. It's when we so we grew up in the city, right Like Pakistan, it's a country of what? 250 million people and there's three, four major metropolitan areas. We grew up in one of them, and by major metropolitan I mean like 13 plus million people and, and you know people come in all sorts of. You know flavors and backgrounds and things like that. And this, to give you context, would be sort of you know a proper school, brick and mortar, and you know there's, there's amenities, there's computers, there's, there's those types of things that you know for better or worse. Even Sarah had access to. I had access to growing up in the 80s, whatever you imagine. So, but yeah, I think the, the, the.
Speaker 5:As far as the language barrier, I, the closest equivalent that I've been able to find, is, I think, like if you imagine some countries in Europe, like Sweden, if you go to Stockholm, people are fluent in English.
Speaker 5:They can probably speak better English than than than you know native speakers, but then obviously they also speak Swedish and it's a completely different language. You know different structure and everything. So there's like a millisecond or two of if you, if you, if you say hello or or hey, you know, but but, and and and, and it takes a second or two to determine, okay, are you a Swedish speaker or are you an English speaker, but then they'll respond immediately and there's almost almost no language barrier, right? So it's kind of like that. It's like, okay, you need to know, you need to know what, what the native language is. There is an expectation If you have brown skin, black hair, you're probably Pakistani, so speak in your language. However, in certain situations, if you don't respond in English, then it's almost like a, like a status thing that oh well, you know, oh, you don't even speak English.
Speaker 5:Oh right, so it can be, it can be difficult, in in like a multi, a multitude of ways and and these are nuances that you have to sort of navigate, and sometimes it's it's, it's difficult, it is difficult, it can be difficult.
Speaker 4:So yeah, and difficult when you're young and you're trying to Find your way, but not stand out too much and not, like you know, be sort of the outcast or be made fun of. You just want to kind of fit in right when you're young and that can be really hard. Yeah, I, I, I sympathize, I, I know that feeling. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 3:I'm glad you had the Beatles there to help you through. Oh, always To bring it back.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 4:Music does that for us often, and particularly too, I think, when we travel and we're experiencing like new places or we're feeling out of our otherwise comfortable element, like what brings us that comfort. So it's really cool that you had that and something that kind of anchored you maybe towards English even though the Beatles are British but gave you a little comfort.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's actually a really good point, because it is it's music that actually helped me connect with so many people, even in Pakistan. So when I started school I made friends with everyone and a lot of them they had really good music tastes, like they listened to rock too. Their parents exposed them to the Beatles and Led Zeppelin, everything. I'm like wait, my dad listens to that too, and it kind of became a bonding thing and that's. I made so many friends through that, and same with my transition back to the US. They're like, OK, who's this weird girl from Pakistan? But wait, she has like a sick music taste. So that's how I was able to make friends when I moved here back in high school. So it was really cool.
Speaker 5:Was it odd for like a nine year old to listen to the Beatles and some of the old, and then maybe for you and your friends as well? Did you guys think that it was? It was like you know, old and classic, or was it like? No, this is still cool. It's still relevant.
Speaker 1:It was still cool. Yeah, I didn't think of it as any different than the modern songs, and I think again, my friends too. They all had parents and uncles like our parents age who probably exposed them to the same thing. So I think I made friends who had similar experience with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's always that question of like the music you listen to when you were like in high school or something like that, like when it was like just everything. Was it good because it was when you were in high school or is it good because it was actually like good? And so you see these things where certain songs or groups or genres or whatever speak to people in different generations in ways and at different points in their life, and so you know that's kind of that thing of where it's like no, there's, there's something more going on here than just well, it was just the music that was on. So, yeah, it brings me back and I remembered it's, it's good music.
Speaker 1:Right and I think in my generation. It's like it was cool to like old music. It's like, oh, it's cool to listen to classic rock.
Speaker 4:Right, it's vintage or retro or whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I remember Guitar Hero was a big thing for that when I was I taught. I taught middle and high school for a few years and and yeah, my students knew, knew all of this stuff and it was a lot because they were finding it from. You know Guitar Hero and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:I mean the musicians, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the musicians knew it right, because they've been doing it forever. But, like for everybody, it really just Guitar Hero really blew it up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like Guitar Hero was a great way to expose people to rock and good music Because, yeah, a lot of the songs I listened to were actually from playing Guitar Hero when I was 12. Yeah, we could play list of the strokes.
Speaker 3:Nice.
Speaker 1:I got that from Guitar Hero.
Speaker 4:Reptilia.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, that.
Speaker 4:I love that you got to use like music as like a social currency. Yes, to like trade and meet people right, when other cultural aspects might have been like just a little awkward or you know you're trying to figure out your way. So that's, super cool.
Speaker 5:Isn't it funny how it doesn't matter, it almost doesn't matter, that you moved from South Florida to Pakistan, right, I love this word of social currency, or music as social currency. That's so on point. Because, like I'm thinking of, like Dave's example, moving from Jersey to Florida and it's just like what was the thing that helped in that transition? It was music. Some guy introduced him to Rush, right, or there was some things about a fact and say, oh, you like this music, I like it too. Great, like we can be friends, we have something in common. Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and another type of music that really helped me was Bollywood music. So in South Florida, grew up listening to Bollywood music and that was a way of me connecting with the people in Pakistan. They're like, oh, she's American, but wait, she knows all about Bollywood. Wow, so I was able to make a lot of friends. We connected that way as well. That's cool.
Speaker 4:You're like vetted a little bit, like she gets it. Yeah, I know Bollywood.
Speaker 1:Because you know it's the same language that we speak, so that was also a good way of connecting, super cool and relating to others. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Social currency and social identifier. Yes, it's a way to find your people right, so you know your stuff. It still happens now all the time. Carolina Lassai well, you know, rush is my favorite band and I'll wear a Rush shirt in the airport and sure enough, someone will come over. Hey, man, love it, saw them in 82. And blah, blah, blah. And it's just like this thing, and you have this moment and they go off and it's like that way of just hey, that person's going to get me Right and so, yeah, it's this currency to say like, hey, I'm legit, I can hang, but also, hey, those are my people, I connect over this.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, it happens all the time my daughter's like what is happening, like you're, not like a celebrity. What is with this like shirt that gets you Like random dudes coming up all over the place.
Speaker 3:And it's usually always dudes, and it's usually always dudes, and you know he had to think about it for like a while at the airport.
Speaker 4:He's like do I say something to him? I say something. He's wearing the shirt. Do I walk up to him, do I not? You know like, and then like works up the courage to walk over and be like love your shirt man.
Speaker 1:Like when I started high school back in the States, I would purposefully wear all my band T-shirts so people would know that, okay, this girl's cool, she knows what's up. And then that was actually a really good conversation starter too, like oh yeah, I think I went to that same concert as you, so yeah, that's a good point Totally, and that's it.
Speaker 3:That's like instant friendship, right? Exactly you don't need anything else, it doesn't matter. You know where you're, from what language you speak. If I see you wearing that, whatever shirt it is, and I'm in, you know it's in. Yeah, Because again.
Speaker 1:I had social anxiety so I did not have the courage to initiate conversations at the time. This was back in high school, so I would use my music and my shirts and posters to show people who I am. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I love that so much, so great.
Speaker 4:You just like put it out there like I'm good people, this is who I like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm cool, I promise. I feel like the spin tip.
Speaker 3:And I just had another like, thought too of like, with both of you, rauza and Sara. You know so much of this music literacy you have is from your dad, and how much music has given you this currency, this armor, this ability to move through the world, and so, like you know, it's like the best thing a parent could do, right? He gave you this tool, this knowledge, this appreciation that's helped you navigate the world in challenging situations, and so that's just like yeah, thank you, what a wonderful gift.
Speaker 5:Yeah, thanks dad.
Speaker 1:That's it dad. Thanks dad, thanks dad. Thanks to my siblings also Having again we have that big age gap, so my siblings were kind of like a second set of cooler parents so they also exposed me to, like my sister exposed me to punk rock, like I think there's a video of me singing Green Day, when I'm like one, so nice to my siblings.
Speaker 3:That's so wonderful.
Speaker 4:It's like teaching you a language too. That you can speak with others, even if they don't speak your language. Right you like you speak music, right you know yeah you speak this band right? Yeah, that's true. Oh, I love that. All right, let's keep us. Let's keep us moving ahead. You know we're talking about, like, all different aspects of your life. You've been in, you've been here. I know this this experience is a ride.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a ride. I feel like we'll talk about this later, but I feel like after you're done with this interview, you sort of just let it like I just went on like this whole life. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 4:In a short period of time, exactly, but we're going to. We're going to kind of keep moving through through your life here. So for your next song and prompt what is a song that when you hear it, you are just instantly transported to a specific time or a place?
Speaker 1:So for this one I picked Flashing Lights by Kanye West and this. This was like 2007, 2008. So it instantly takes me back to eighth grade, when I was still in Pakistan. Kanye was getting huge at the time, you know, stronger had just come out and it was just like the year of Kanye for me. So I'd listened to that constantly, like on the way to school, after school. So it just it reminds me of eighth grade, which was also very crazy time in my life, which we'll talk about in a second.
Speaker 3:All right, let's take a listen and then we'll we'll hear what was going on at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that instantly transported me back to Lahore, pakistan, eighth grade. That was, yeah, crazy time. So I was still in Pakistan at that point. I was completely settled and it was like it was a great year for me. In the beginning, you know, I was at the height of popularity. People realized, okay, she's a cool American girl, but she's still cultured. So I finally, like, established myself. I went to pretty small school. It was about a hundred people total, so everyone kind of knew each other and you know I had the best friends, I was getting really good grades, everything was just kind of perfect for the first half of the year and then, you know, when things are finally going well, of course something has to happen.
Speaker 1:So that turned out to be a very dark time for the country. Just, political scene kind of got a little bit crazy. So I remember I was in my eighth grade class, just about to take an exam or something, and all of a sudden we hear like the whole building shakes, it feels like an earthquake and it feels like someone or it sounded like someone just slammed the door really quick and then we realized that a bomb had just gone off right across from our school. So we're all just looking at each other. And then there instead of fire drills we had bomb drills.
Speaker 1:So the bomb drill went off and then we're all we just like run outside and there was an embassy right next door to our school, so we were kind of like congregating there. And then I looked to my left and two more bombs went off, like right in front of me. It was across the street. So you know, like what we saw? We saw the smoke and everything. So that was scary, you know. And then flashing lights, so it kind of relates. Yeah, it was a rough time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just had that connection too.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that became a really difficult time.
Speaker 1:And then, same day that happened, I came home. My brother was actually visiting Pakistan too, and that was the same day that our grandfather passed away. He had been in the hospital for a few weeks, so that happened. That happened five days later. Our grandmother, from different side, passed away to in the same hospital, so it was just like two weeks of darkness. Yeah, it was. It was crazy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, I like how you said, like two other bombs went off and they were close, but not real close, and you could see them, but this and it's like, like, yeah, we're still alive, but right, right, like you, know, as someone else who's you know, had explosions go off around them.
Speaker 3:It's, it's that thing. The first time it happens, it doesn't matter how close, it is Right. If you can be aware that an explosion went off, that you can see, that is yeah, yeah. It rocks your world literally and you know, figuratively for sure, exactly how. How was what after that day? What was the next? Like few weeks, like at school, what was?
Speaker 1:it was crazy that whole month was bad. So this happened on a Tuesday and I remember every Tuesday like another one would go off, like it started to become a pattern. So we almost expected it at that point, I think school closed for a few days and in the midst of all of that we're like doing planning two funerals because of our grandparents and it was just like a lot. So I think the funeral stuff kind of helped me detach from the bomb stuff, but then it was still happening, so it was a lot yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's very chaotic and that whole terrorism period that that went on for about a year and that's actually why we ultimately decided to move back to America. We're like all right, we don't even have grandparents anymore. What is the point in being in this country? So we kind of peaced out after that and then came back to the States.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, we can't discount that like this.
Speaker 1:That would be a lot for anybody Right, let alone an eighth grader I was traumatized and, like every time someone would slam the door, I'd be like, oh my God, what was that? If a balloon popped, I'd be like, oh my God, like I, literally it's like PTSD, you know, you're triggered Sure.
Speaker 1:I was triggered so much by so many things and that went on for years, even when I moved back to America and I heard like there was an earthquake in 2010, like recently after I moved back to America, and just that shaking it took me back to the bomb blast because it was also the room shaking when that happened. So, yeah, yeah, I felt the aftermath of that for a few years. For sure, yeah, I bet.
Speaker 4:So oh God.
Speaker 3:Oh, I was just going to say, and that's what can you know? Have just so much of the physical effects of the PTSD. It's not just the moment that the trauma happened, it's what you do in response to that right, that you're on guard for the next, you know few years or longer, and that wears on your body, right, and that's where you get you know the physical effects of it and things, and like, yeah, like Carolina said, you know eighth grade, when you know you're, your world is still like, you have this optimism about it, this, this illusion, I guess you could say, of safety, right, and when that gets you know rocked, it's, it's, it's horrible, right. I mean it's, it's what you know. We have going on in the US here with the school shootings, right, it's not, it's not just whether your school ever had one or not, it's living under this environment of knowing and wondering and wondering is it going to be our school tomorrow? And yeah, it's, it's, it's tough and so yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's so true. You said being on guard and super alert, and that's exactly what I did. So I remember I stopped wearing headphones for a while, even when I was listening to music, just because I wanted to hear, like, what is going on outside. So that was one thing. And again, even with the school shootings, like I've like I lived in Chicago this past year and I did not wear headphones the whole time, just because I'm walking outside and I want to be alert, like who is walking behind me. And yeah, you just become hyper vigilant after going through these situations.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and that's, I mean, that's Common advice for for women as as just from a gender perspective. Needing to be on guard and being safe when you're out in the world is like Either only have one in or you know, because you need to be aware of, of your surroundings.
Speaker 1:My dad actually got me Bose sunglasses, which I think are really cool, so it's like they're not in your ears. Yeah, so then the music isn't going in your ears. You can still hear the outside world, but then you still have your music. So thanks, dad.
Speaker 3:Oh, I just have this Dude. I'm not going to try and do that. Raza, just such a great impression, oh yeah. But, just being like don't worry, sarah, I got the product for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I got you.
Speaker 1:Pretty much.
Speaker 3:That's pretty spot on, oh this. Do you mind oh?
Speaker 4:there you go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, do you mind if I ask do, have you ever talked to anyone about the experience, like, have you ever done any therapy for it or not, and if so, what was your experience with that? It's kind of the undertone of what kind of started this podcast with my experience in that way, so I was just you know curious.
Speaker 1:So I didn't do therapy per se, because in Pakistan, especially at that time, I don't think therapy was even a thing.
Speaker 1:It's also like mental health and all of that. It's people don't talk about it in Pakistan and it's not talked about enough, which I think is a huge problem in that country, because now there are a lot of people who are, you know, committing and it's it's pretty rough. So, unfortunately, like I didn't really have a therapist that I could have talked to at the time, but what I did was I did a lot of journaling. I actually still have this journal, for every time one of these incidents would happen, I would just write it down and I like I got really into it. Actually I turned into a scrapbook in a way, like every time there was a news article, I would you know, cut it out, and I have all those news, little blogs in my journal. So I would just a journal I'd write, and I wasn't much of a talker at the time either, so for me it was more therapeutic just to write it out or type it out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's that's been my experience with trying to seek help for things. It's like there's all kinds of different things out there and not everything works for the same person in the same way, and so it's just this thing of like yeah, you just try whatever you can. In that sense, so what are you going to say, carolina or Raza? You were going to say something.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think one of the things that I've noticed in the last few years and you know when, when, when talking about mental health as just in general, it almost seems like there is help available, but the person experiencing the trauma needs to recognize what's going on and make the connection between experience and seeking help, because once you, once you and I guess that the word for that is acknowledgement, right Acknowledge it, ok, something really terrible happened and I can do something about it, which is I can seek help, and then it's like phase two is then you know what is the help and what is the specific diagnosis, et cetera, et cetera. I hate to use this analogy, but it's almost like when you get service connection right, it's the three step process.
Speaker 3:So for everybody. Listening. Service connection for veterans is when you have an injury or illness or something that gets connected to your military service and thus VA will treat you for it because it's connected to your service.
Speaker 5:Right. So, and it's in order to get service connection. It's there needs to be a diagnosed condition, there needs to be a specific event that happened during the time of the veteran service, and then a professional has to provide a what they call it, a nexus statement. Without that three step process, you know, you're not going to be service connected. And it's in the, in my mind, the civilian version of that is is you know, just, we need to just acknowledge that something happened, there is help available.
Speaker 5:But that make that connection between okay, something terrible happened, now, how do I manage that? How do I what? What is it that's out there in the manner of help that I can seek, but a lot of folks just don't recognize that, hey, something really terrible happened and they processed and maybe go on about their lives without seeking help. So I think that's really important here, and one of the best things that I've seen in the last few years by by just in a manner of folks talking about mental health, is that they're acknowledging, look, something terrible happened. And if you'd, and if you're able to do that and say, hey, you know, something happened, then you can move to the next step, which is okay, seek help, because I think help is available. I mean, there are physicians there and obviously there's exceptions, but by and large help is available. But you gotta acknowledge. You gotta acknowledge that something is wrong and then go out there and then seek it.
Speaker 1:So no, that's a really good point, because I've obviously I started going through major things in life at a very young age, but I didn't start, you know, accepting or seeking help until maybe like two years ago, when I really realized that, yeah, you know, this is actually a problem. I feel like I was always the type just to like push through my feelings. You know, I was quiet, I would just push through all my problems and until my physical health started to catch up with the mental health, I did not seek help at all. It was I was like now my body's reacting, so it's like I can't even control it at this point. I would get migraines and just, you know, muscle pain and all these random physical symptoms and I was like, okay, you know what? I think I need to really reevaluate and actually maybe talk to someone now. So I actually realized this my fourth year of pharmacy school and throughout residency, which is probably the toughest time I've ever had to go through.
Speaker 4:So yeah, I think, raza, the point you made of you know that being that critical step of acknowledgement, and then, sara, what you're describing as like that's so hard to do, I think the way trauma manifests in folks can look so vastly different and sometimes you know it's either like you're irritable or just you just keep getting sick all the time, or like you just can't drop those 10, 15 pounds, like whatever it is that feels like that's not the thing, is the thing, like that's how it's showing up for you and you're not like connecting the things on top of our just super fast, high-performing society where you you know what is that saying?
Speaker 4:I see it on shirts like pain is weakness leaving the body and just like suck it up and like that's like in everything it's not necessarily just the military and so we tend to just brush it off, we gaslight ourselves, we're like that's not a thing, you know. I know there was a point in time when I was physically very ill from other stuff and I had had pretty traumatic history of my life losing my husband, some childhood issues and whatever. And I'm filling out a form at the doctor Do you remember this, david? And they asked if you had ever been through trauma and I'm thinking of David, or I'm thinking of, like war torn regions, and I'm like honey, have I ever been through trauma? He looks at me and goes didn't your husband die? And I was like well, yeah, but. And he's like right, yes, yes, you have.
Speaker 3:And you had to leave Pal because of family members being, you know just all yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:And how much we just like tone it down because someone's had it worse, or like we don't want to complain or like, for all intents and purposes, our life looks pretty good, we've got a roof, we make a nice living, like what is there to complain about? But like our body's kind of falling apart, right. So I think, yeah, between your point, Raza, and your points are like that connection is just seems so like impossible to make.
Speaker 1:Exactly. And like, as a health professional, like you always feel the need to just always be on the move. If I'm not working, I have to study or prepare for my shift and do this, do that. And then I kind of realized, like, if I'm not OK, how am I going to help my patients? You know, like I'm so burnt out. I recognize that. I'm like how am I going to recommend medications or verify orders by the physicians if you know I'm so tired and like nauseous all the time and just like not OK. So I kind of had to take a step back, you know, request a few days off, which is totally fine to do, and just like get my shit together pretty much.
Speaker 1:And then you know you're able to go from there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, I appreciate so much you sharing that because, just, you know, we are different ages, our trauma was different, you know.
Speaker 3:But so much of what you're describing I I've like said word for word before and I think I'm going to add a little something to the acknowledgement point.
Speaker 3:I think in my experience that is coming out through this and my own experience or whatever and I really want to, you know, for anyone listening to kind of take this into of like it's acknowledgement of it, but not in the sense of you're in denial, right, it's not like I've got all these symptoms, I know it's PTSD or I know it's trauma and I just don't want to do anything about it.
Speaker 3:It's really about acknowledgement through understanding, right, that, hey, the fact that my legs are always like hurting and I feel like I need to move them all the time and I can't sit, still, that's related to trauma, that's a trauma response, right, I mean it's not automatic, it could be something else, right, but but like that is it. And so, like this idea that and it can come years later, right, because it's it's not just from the trauma itself, it can be from the years after of what you do to stay on guard and everything in response to it. And so, yeah, it's just, you know, if something's not feeling right one of us said it before if something's not feeling right, yeah, you, you, you got to do something about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and kind of going off of that. I was recently just hanging out with friends at a restaurant having really good time and we you know the buzzer that when you're waiting for your order.
Speaker 1:So we're just minding our own business, that goes off. And it instantly took me back to that cardiac arrest because it sounded just like that pager that would go off at the hospital. I was like, oh my God, that sounds just like that pager and I just like I had like a mini panic attack, almost like my heart started racing so and I had to like calm myself down. So yeah, trauma is, it's always there somewhere and sneak up on you anytime.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4:Right, and just the acknowledgement too, of how trauma can show up in our job, in our personal lives. You know, yeah, it can always show up. So yeah, the pager thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and just also not not seeing it as a weakness, right, because it's that thing of like I know, with me, when I was, you know, struggling with it, I was working on my PhD and stuff like that and, like you know, things were going wrong. I couldn't focus, I couldn't write a paper, I was just doing garbage work, and so I was just like, all right, next semester, I just need to bear down even more Right, less, you know, I can't go to that hockey tournament with my daughter. I can't this, I just need to like lock myself and do this. And that was the exact opposite of what I needed. I needed to space right which I was fortunate enough to get in this last you know year and change to like breathe and look into it and think about it and stuff.
Speaker 3:And so it's not about muscling through, you know it very much like that, the you know PTSD and the trauma response. Like you know you were saying you're walking around it's. It has this feeling of like you're running a marathon when everyone else is just walking through the world, right, so when everyone's just here, you're like exhausted just by going about the world, and so, in the same way, if you got done running a marathon and we're like my legs are a little sore, I think I need a massage and I need to take some time away. Everyone would be like, yeah, it's the same with trauma, right, it's the same with PTSD, it's the same with these physical responses to it. You're like, yeah, you need some time, you need some healing, you need to, you know, take care of yourself, and so we just need to all give ourselves permission for that. So, again, thank you for sharing. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thank you for sharing. I think it's important to hear these stories that have so many similarities, but from different walks of life and different experiences, because I think a lot of civilians can sort of pinpoint trauma to say, well, it's not combat. And even even within veterans, a lot of PTSD isn't necessarily combat related. So you can always look at somebody and say like well, it's not that, but like hey, no, it can happen to anybody. So thank you for sharing that with our listeners.
Speaker 4:As we round out to your last song, your sixth song, we've gone through quite a ride of ups and downs, but it's important to sometimes acknowledge that there are moments in life, in this complicated up and down life, that sometimes feel just perfect. And so we will end with your sixth song and the prompt here is what's? A song that was a part of just a perfect moment where everything just felt right for you.
Speaker 1:So for this I picked, time Is Running Out by Muse, and the actual perfect instance was when I saw them live back in 2016. This was one of my first not first concerts, but one of the first concerts that I actually really enjoyed, and this had been Muse had been my favorite band for prior decade. So this was the first time I saw them live and the second I heard it I was like all right, my life is complete.
Speaker 3:Nice, let's take a listen. I. I.
Speaker 1:Love it.
Speaker 5:Yes, this is your best album, by the way.
Speaker 1:It was. Yeah, the song takes me back to like it's like a whole decade time period, so like high school to college pretty much, and I remember. So I think, raza, you introduced my sister or our sister to muse and then she introduced me to it. So it's kind of like a chain and again, I was at Pakistan or in Pakistan at the time and we would just we'd both be listening to it constantly. And I know one of the few songs first, songs that I downloaded on my iPod.
Speaker 1:I would listen to it like I'd Go like hide in the bathroom at school, escaping teachers, just to listen to muse and it would help me get through that, like teachers who were calling on me all the time. I'm like you know what I got to go to bathroom like just bye, and I just listened to muse to get me through that and then I listen to it. I remember when we were flying back to the States, moving back, and I started high school in Virginia. You know that was like a kind of like a mean girls experience, because I'm like the one from a foreign country and high school this white high- school with all these rich people.
Speaker 1:I'm like I don't know what I'm doing, but just listen to muse. Muse got me through it and then again, finally, I got to see them live and I was like my god. I've been waiting for this moment since I was 11. Oh I.
Speaker 4:Love that. That's awesome. I love muse like their music is just I Don't know how to describe it other than just like.
Speaker 1:I love the drummer too. He kind of reminds me of when my brother would play the drums in our living room and We'd get yelled at by the neighbors.
Speaker 5:Oh, I hated that.
Speaker 1:She was the worst.
Speaker 5:Oh, that neighbor, by the way, I used to listen to, so we lived in the townhouse and we had neighbors on either side. But, but, but the one in particular. In hindsight now, as an adult, I feel bad for her actually, because she was totally legitimate in her complaints, because she had to deal with a home of both home theater system with explosions and like Terminator 2 right and Then on the level above, I'd wake up in the morning like back in high school and it's like you know six in the morning getting ready for school.
Speaker 5:It's like, and her Sandman From from my room and I think my room was was, it was like a. I would wall away so we get complaints about, and it's not even like she could complain to the parents because the parent was creating a ruckus down. Right right, your son is yeah, he's crap, you're doing it too, he's the ringleader.
Speaker 4:So yeah, yeah and just Sam, and at 6 am Is probably perfect, perfect.
Speaker 5:You know, getting you know while I'm putting on my Metallica t-shirt.
Speaker 2:Fortunately there was no long drills at plantation high school. Thankfully we were a lot of our innocence was lost a few years later.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my favorite part about finally being in a single family home is that he can blast his music. We have garden speakers, dex speakers and there's just again always music playing.
Speaker 3:Oh my god, love it, love it.
Speaker 4:All right so we have. We have completed your musical journey here. How?
Speaker 1:does it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, how's it great To hear your life reflected through six songs.
Speaker 1:I loved it. That was definitely a huge trip down memory lane and, yeah, I've realized things that I didn't even realize at the time. I'm like, wow, that really did cause a lot of trauma. That I'm like now unpacking 20 years later. So yeah, it's really nice talking about it. I don't usually talk about myself this much, so mm-hmm yeah yeah, and, and, and, and.
Speaker 3:You know I so love that because, like you know, these discussions are so just like Enjoyable like. I don't know, you know. I don't know what our listeners are thinking, but you know, hopefully we, we, we have listeners that are, I'm sure, if they you know they're they're enjoying it but like just being part of this, these, these you know there's two hours of just chatting through this and, and you know, hitting these, you know key moments and stuff that you wouldn't normally bring up, right.
Speaker 3:Like if we just met, if, like, all of us went out to you know dinner or something like that together, that might not come up right, you, you might not bring it up or it might not come up in in the way it did here where we were able to. You know, we, we, we held space for it and talk through it and things like that. And so, yeah, I just again I appreciate you for sharing those stories and and being open.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely, and I love how like relatable everyone can be, like we all come from completely different worlds but we're still able to relate in some way, like you know, like the bomb blast story, and you know veteran right and you know Someone just witnessing it from afar. So, again, and music is such a great way of like bringing all these people together- yeah, by the way, I have to say yeah, I mean to that point specifically.
Speaker 5:It's it's a little, it's definitely a little jarring for me, but in a good way again, as as someone like I've known Dave since high school and then obviously I've known you for actually Almost exactly the same amount of time, that's true.
Speaker 1:That's funny the same exact mr Carbone's class the year that you were born 1994.
Speaker 5:Oh my goodness, so yeah, that's. It was all leading towards this moment right here, Full circle moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but but but no, I yeah it's.
Speaker 5:It's definitely been an interesting chat for me to hear, you know, almost like two sides of like viewing the same or or the same transaction, Not the same exact event, but the same set of events and circumstances, but but knowing them from the mind, from the, from the perspective of two different witnesses. And it's yeah this is. This is definitely been interesting for me as well. Yeah, just fun.
Speaker 1:All right, so.
Speaker 5:Keeping things you know moving right along. At the end of our session, we usually have what we call our lives and we usually have what we call our lightning round. Okay, and the lightning round is basically it's about your your first, your last and your best or favorite concert experience. So take it away.
Speaker 1:Okay, so first concert I remember was in Pakistan, 2003. It was the band Janoon, which was probably one of the most Famous bands there. They're, I guess, rock band and yeah, I just remember going to that and I think I made sure we called you because you were you're the one who told me about that before we even moved there. Like it, you know, this is one of the bands. Yeah, you did, you're like.
Speaker 1:Yeah you're like there's a music scene there too. So this was one of my favorite bands growing up and, yeah, I just remember you told me about it and I actually went to that concert that same year that we moved there. So it was pretty cool, yeah. So so first concert and then last Actually saw a green day for the second time, like about a month ago, which it's always a good time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, was it? Was it just? Was it just green day, or was it part of a festival?
Speaker 1:It was part of a mini tour. It was like green day one day and then Google doll, not Google dolls food fighters the next day. I went to the green day day and, yeah, they're always good. I saw them, I think, in 2017, before that, and that was probably one of my favorite concerts. I went with my sister, who was the one who got me into green day, so Nice, nice and then best concert.
Speaker 1:For this I actually chose system of a down because my sister and I we kind of went as a joke like I thought I only knew you know like maybe five or six songs. We ended up knowing every single song they played. We were singing. I think I lost my voice the next day. It was crazy. We were thinking about our brother the whole time. I wish you were at that concert because we were just thinking about you the whole time. So that was hilarious and amazing at the same time. They were actually really good live yes.
Speaker 5:That talk about full circle. You started with system of down as well.
Speaker 3:There we go, there we go. First answer system of down. Last answer system of down.
Speaker 4:To. There's something I know when I go to a concert and I don't know the set list, You're like, oh it's gonna be something. I know it's gonna be like a bunch of songs. I don't know and like it gives me anxiety and there's like exactly, it is like the most epic Night when, like you know, every song on the set list Exactly like we went in, there was again.
Speaker 1:It was as a joke, I think it was a free concert that my sister got and we're like they're probably gonna play this new shit that we don't know. And then you know, we ended up knowing everything was great, oh.
Speaker 4:That's awesome. I love that for you. All right, sarah. So you know, in the, in the few minutes we have left, tell us what you've got going on that folks might be interested in, or if your story really really really Resonates with folks, how, how they can reach out and contact you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. So one of the biggest things I have going on right now that I recently started is I started a small business when I basically make study guides for either aspiring pharmacists or any health professional really more practicing. So they're like kind of one-page little cheat sheets. That I developed and I kind of started it.
Speaker 1:We know, when I was in school I I struggled a little bit studying, you know, massive textbooks, about 2000 page textbooks. I'm like this is really overwhelming. I can't retain anything this way. So I started making just one page sheets where it's like okay, this is everything you need to know for the exam, memorize this, practice it, discuss it with friends and you'll do fine. And then slowly the words started spreading to my classmates. They started using my study guides to pass exams and they would actually pass and they're like you know what? You should do something with this. So I started putting them on Etsy. My Etsy it's pharmacy guides, dot Etsy comm and I now have like an ultimate guide. That's basically four years of pharmacy school in one guide. I have disease state bundles, so like a psych bundle, a gastro bundle, all of that and then just one page guides if you need it.
Speaker 1:And yeah, yeah very into pharmacy and you know, influencing people and I also have a tick talk called at pharmacy talks to Oks, where I kind of showcase a day in the life of a pharmacist or day in the life of a resident. I do little. You know. Educational posts Me just like counting metformin. I'm like this is metformin, it's for diabetes, these are the side effects. So like little clips like that, and then I also use it to promote my Etsy. So it's kind of what I got going on in a nutshell.
Speaker 3:Nice.
Speaker 1:That's awesome.
Speaker 3:You are a pharmacy student out there who is Drowning right now and not sure how they're gonna make it through. Go check it out. Get check out the Etsy store. Say it one more time what is it?
Speaker 1:pharmacy guides at or dot Etsy comm.
Speaker 3:And we'll put the links. Yeah, and we'll put those links in the show notes for people too, and your, your, your tick-tock and everything like that perfect. Right, awesome, all right, sarah, thank you so much for for being our guest today. We thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and enjoyed your openness, and it's just been really great, so thank you for that Everyone having me oh.
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally, totally Everybody out there. Make sure you know, like and subscribe, share the word if you like what you hear. You know, if you know someone who could kind of maybe benefit from some of these conversations right and you know could could use you hearing some of this, you know, let them know and we will see you next time. On a life in six songs.