Ep. 10 - Becoming Your Favorite Self: Finding Your Voice in Philosophy and Punk Rock

Fulden İbrahimhakkıoğlu, a passionate academic and punk musician, is our final guest on this first album of the show! Fulden, an associate professor of philosophy and gender and women's studies at Middle East Technical University in Ankara, Turkey, traces her musical voyage from Britney Spears' "Baby One More Time" and connecting with Courtney Love to finding her voice with Babes in Toyland while an undergrad in Istanbul and being inspired by Bratmobile while doing her PhD in Eugene, Oregon. We finish with Fulden’s own voice in her bands, Literally Anything Before Bros and Emaskülatör. It’s a riot grrrl, punk rock trip! Pull up a folding chair, grab a drink, find a spot in the mosh pit, and enjoy the conversation and community. 

Listen to Fulden’s bands Literally Anything Before Bros and Emaskülatör 

Check out her academic work 

Connect with her at fuldenshedemon@gmail.com

Follow your hosts David, Raza, and Carolina every week as they embark on an epic adventure to find the songs that are stuck to us like audible tattoos to tell the story of who we are and where we’ve been. It’s a life story told through 6 songs.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

MIN. Shortly it stopped, but now we're playing this little piece of music. Yeah, it started growing, but now it's loый at its time. I don't know what comes to mind when I see MUSIC. She says wrong songs in a long time. Alright, it just started.

David: 0:22

What about you? Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of a life in six songs. I am your host, David Reese, and I'm joined by my co-host, Carolina and Raza. Hey, hey.

David: 0:49

Hi there. For those of you new to the podcast, and this is the first episode you're checking out each week, we embark on an epic adventure to find the songs that are stuck to us like audible tattoos, that tell the story of who we are and where we've been, to help us figure out where we're going to go. It's a story told through six songs. Let's go have a listen together. Our guest today is Fulden Ibrahim Hakkulu. She is an associate professor of philosophy and gender and women's studies at Middle East Technical University in Ankara, turkey. She's also a punk musician playing guitar and singing, and has played in several feminist punk and metal bands over the past 20 years. They recently finished touring Northern Europe with her band, emasculator, and released a debut full-length album with her band Literally Anything Before Bros. I Know Fulden from our time together in grad school at the University of Oregon. Fulden, welcome to A Life in Six Songs.

Fulden: 1:59

Hi, thank you. Thanks for having me.

David: 2:01

Yeah, we're super excited Me too, yeah. So to get us started, before we dive into your six songs, we've got six great songs and stories behind them. But before we do, just to kind of set the stage, tell us how you see music fitting into your life. What role does it play? How do you see it?

Fulden: 2:26

Well, obviously it plays a really major role, given that I spend a lot of time playing music and listening to music. I do need to listen to music because it's also a great source of inspiration for the stuff that I write as well. But writing songs has been a part of my life ever since I was a little kid. It was actually like a game for me. I would come up with these melodies, I would write some lyrics. They were like very childish songs, obviously, but I would have a lot of fun doing that and I would also have these tapes which I would record on just singing these songs that I hear on the radio and on TV, but singing them really terribly. So it's a big part of my life really.

David: 3:24

Yeah, yeah, oh, I love that. Yeah, I want to. I want to hear some more about those songs from your youth. Those are the best. That's great. I'm going to pass it over to Carolina. Who's going to get us started with your first song?

Carolina: 3:41

Yeah, all right, I love your intro there, that you've been doing this since you were a really little kid it's always so interesting to me what sticks with folks at what age and so you felt a connection to music from very, very young, which is really, really cool, and you do write and perform, as we noted, but you listen to music also throughout your day, and so for our first song, we'll ask what's a song that's intimately connected to another activity, whether it's like a book or a location or a trip? What is it and what was that activity?

Fulden: 4:17

For me I would say that it's Baby One More Time by Britney Spears, which was her very first song. Well, the song that she released, which she came to be known for, and she got really big with that, in Turkey as well, which is where I grew up, and I got a cassette of it, of this album, after having seen a music video, I think initially, and I would always play this cassette in the car. So during those trips that we took with my dad traveling from our hometown, izmir, to my grandma's house in Didim, which is like two hours or so away, we would always listen to this cassette. And I think it would kind of drive my dad crazy, because he did not like pop music at all. He was such a rocker and he would always want to listen to Queen or Pink Floyd or Rolling Stones and classic rock. But I love this cassette, and he wouldn't say anything about it, but I could kind of tell that he disliked it.

Fulden: 5:31

So this song, whenever I hear it, and I think it's a killer song, I think it's become a classic over the years and at that time my dad had this perspective. He would tell me you know, pop is like a bubble it's going to burst, but rock is forever. Like he had to understand. But I think still. I mean this song really did become a classic of sorts and I still listen to it sometimes and it always takes me back to those trips that we took.

David: 6:12

Let's take a listen and go back to those trips. For anyone that hasn't heard, here's Britney Spears. Maybe one more time.

Carolina: 6:54

How does it feel listening to it now?

Fulden: 6:57

Well, it feels wonderful, very nostalgic, yeah, yeah.

Carolina: 7:02

Is this the song? Is this the video where she's got like the red leather output? No, I think that's toxic.

Fulden: 7:11

This one. The video is like she's a high school student. She's just like waiting for the class to be over and then, during the break, they all start dancing.

David: 7:22

Right, yeah, yeah.

Carolina: 7:24

Spontaneously burst into song and dance in high school.

David: 7:27

This is that video that spawned so many Halloween costumes and other cosplay, because it's the you know, the schoolgirl dress and she's got the white shirt on, but it's like open and tied, I think.

Fulden: 7:44

Yeah, like the pink pom poms on her head. Yes, yeah.

Raza: 7:49

Catholic schoolgirl outfit right, Right, right.

Carolina: 7:53

I think so Definitely like a private school situation.

Raza: 7:55

Private school.

Carolina: 7:57

I think we've talked about this in other episodes, about parents and kids, and, like music that you know, parents either put up with or passed down to their kids, and so kudos to your dad for not digging the music but letting you like, enjoy it.

Fulden: 8:12

Well, yeah, it's funny because I, right before Britney Spears, I was really into Spice Girls and I didn't speak English at the time. So I would show my dad all these lyrics and ask him so what are they saying in this song, what is this song about? And he would always look at it and he would say this song is about dancing. Like you want to say the same thing.

David: 8:35

That's awesome. What are? They saying Nothing. Nothing important, they're just dancing.

Raza: 8:42

Well, I think compared to you know some of the classic rock themes like Queen and Pink Floyd and stuff. I think, yeah, the Spice Girls and Britney Spears and some of the more popular bands. It's just completely random stuff, seemingly. It's either that or you know your first crush or your first love or whatever.

David: 9:03

Yeah, I think it's like that thing of you know, this is a, you know a no judgment podcast, in the sense of we're not critiquing what anyone's listening to or not, because that's not the point, but just to kind of say it a little bit. It's sort of like that idea of I think some people can dig on some kind of music, whether it's pop music or whatever it might be, just because, oh, it's not as technical, it's not as deep, it's not as whatever. But it's like music can serve different functions, right. It's like food right, there's different kinds of food. A waffle and eggs, maybe in the morning, is great, but you know, if I have soup in the morning, maybe that's not as good, and so it's matching it to the right things Exactly.

Fulden: 9:48

Like you wouldn't want to go to a club and then hear hardcore punk or something. I mean, if you go to that kind of a club, yeah right, but you wouldn't want to, like, go to just dancing and hear something completely different.

Carolina: 10:05

I'm not dressed for I'm not dressed for. Mashing Like this is Exactly. And then bring band-aids and a first aid kit? I don't know, I've never watched before.

David: 10:16

Oh, we got to change that, then, do we? No To turkey, let's do some mashing all together. Oh, my God.

Raza: 10:25

Do they have mosh pits in Turkey?

Fulden: 10:27

Oh yeah, of course.

Raza: 10:29

Really. Oh, I'm learning, that's great.

Fulden: 10:33

Yeah, you should come to one of our shows.

Raza: 10:37

I, I intend, yeah, at the end of this podcast. I intend to. I think it's going to be a lot of fun, Definitely.

Carolina: 10:43

That's right.

Raza: 10:44

I know, I mean obviously in Europe and Europe and South America are super, you know, big fans of heavier music, but it's always odd, I know like in Dubai they have like the Desert Rock Festival and some other, some other countries it's it's coming up. There's this cultural component as well. It's like new. It's new for for for some people, as it was in the States and in Western countries too. But yeah, no, that's great to hear. I will plan to mash in Istanbul next time I'm there.

Carolina: 11:17

I was going to say, David, write that down. When a, when a life in six songs goes on tour, where are we going? Yeah, we'll be to watch Fulton's band.

David: 11:26

Have to Definitely, definitely, live stream it. Yeah, and it's funny too, cause in like, even in the US talking about like mashing, I don't know how we started with Britney Spears and we got to mashing, but here we go.

Carolina: 11:39

We're we're.

David: 11:40

We're teasing what's coming up next, but even a lot of places here in the in the States are starting to try and limit. You know mashing and you know stage diving and everything else.

Fulden: 11:54

And so yeah, yeah.

David: 11:56

Well, I think it's just because you know the US is very litigious, right, it's all about lawsuits and you know things like that, and so places just don't want to deal with it and they're just like no, it's not that there's nowhere, but it's just you definitely see it, you see it around, so anyway, smaller clubs.

Carolina: 12:20

So we kind of started a bit with with your childhood and riding in the car and listening to some pop music and somewhat like happier times. But you know life, life is a journey with with ups and downs, and so for your next song, what's a song that either maybe you've listened to during a difficult time, has helped you through a difficult time or situation, and what was it?

Fulden: 12:44

A song that's helped me through a difficult time is Teenage Horror by Hall, which was one of the first times where I got introduced to grunge and punk and I then I identified a lot with Courtney Love at the time actually, because she was bullied a lot in school and I was bullied a lot and I very much felt like an outcast and she was the queen of outcasts basically. And I know that she has a lot of bad rap and at the time too, but I kind of understood where she was coming from, at times at least. And we're both cancers, that's the other thing. But that song really helped me go through a lot of those or process a lot of those feelings of being an outcast.

Fulden: 13:47

It's basically about a girl telling her mom or whatever hey, like I'm a teenage whore and you know it's, it's just what I am and like I don't care what you think. And I also had that very rebellious phase as well. And it also helped me see a whole different kind of a world where I wouldn't necessarily have to be afraid of being slut shamed which was something very common, especially in high school like you want to get a little intimate with someone and then all of a sudden you're being slut shamed for it, and especially in Turkey, where people, a lot of people, have these conservative ideas about romance and sexuality. So it was like a song that helped me sort of break away from all of that, and, yeah, it's a great song.

David: 14:55

Let's take a listen.

Carolina: 15:30

How's it feel listening to it now?

Fulden: 15:32

It feels really powerful. Yeah, yeah, it's one of my all time favorite Paul songs. I think and it's from this album that I think their first full length album which is super dark, and when I first started playing punk, I wanted to sound like that. I wanted our music to sound really dark and powerful and not like the happy punk that we're often used to hearing on the radio. Yeah.

Raza: 16:06

Yeah, she's got an amazing voice. Courtney Love does. I don't think she gets enough credit. I remember thinking back to or right now thinking back to, the 90s and when Grunge and those and that genre of music was coming up. We always are usually my reference point for whole and Courtney Love was sort of bad things but not really delving into the issues that she was talking about and there's a lot of darkness and substance there and it's cool to see you know so many years later how you related to some of the things that she was talking about all the way back then. So it's cool to see that.

Carolina: 17:00

Yeah, we've talked across a few episodes of like some of those kind of female leading either it was like Grunge or more alternative band you know, from Melanus Morissette to Fiona Apple to you know, and I felt like you know they sort of made the mainstream right. They were popular, they were on the radio that kind of thing, but there was still sort of like this kind of mainstreamy likability about them.

Carolina: 17:25

And I remember the first time I saw Courtney Love and just like in awe of just how authentically herself she seemed like this, just not giving any fucks about whether she was likable or not. And for people who are a little more repressed in childhood and are rebellious but like really on the inside, you're just like that's so cool. Like you just put it out there.

Fulden: 17:49

Yeah, precisely, and like all this shit that she gets from other people, most of it is like all these rockers, like male rockers do this stuff all the time and everyone thinks it's cool and it's no big deal, but then when she does it, I think there's a lot of sexism involved in that. People are just I think that she's disgusting only because she's a woman doing these things that mend it all the time and they get a free pass.

David: 18:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think that's so true about how her music got overlooked, right, Because she was being kind of either talked about as Kurt Cobain's partner, right, or how she, you know, just like you said, fulton, like doing all the things that lots of male rockers do, you know, and get like lauded for, right, like as rockers, like oh, drug incoming on you know, and it's like, oh, he's so out of it, and it's like, yeah, you know, but when she does it, like you said, it's not okay and they're going to, you know, everyone is going to critique her in that way, and I think you're so right too. I think the music is so powerful in so many ways if we take the time to listen to it.

Fulden: 19:24

Yeah, and people even claimed at some point that Kurt Cobain was actually writing all of her songs which simply is not true. Yeah.

Fulden: 19:38

Right. I mean you should listen to these older albums and it just sounds so authentic. I like that word that you used Carolina. I think she sounds very, very authentic. And after her band got very popular, alongside this explosion of grunge, that's when they started to get very poppy. But still, I like the songs during that era as well. I think they're fun to listen to. But they're, to me, not comparable to this earlier stuff.

Carolina: 20:15

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I remember hearing the comparison, not the comparison, hearing a lot of the narrative around like her fame being solely tied to her marriage to Kurt Cobain and things like that, or like that's why she was famous or he set her up, or you know that kind of thing. But then when you actually sat down to listen to that early work, you're like no, she's super talented, this is really good stuff. It always irked me.

David: 20:43

Yeah, so you know music has a way of connecting people and helps you identify, and we talked about music as kind of like a social currency in ways. And so I was curious when you found you know a hole in this music and you identified with her and you were going through similar things, was it you and you know a hole, or did you find some other people you know in high school or whatever that were also in that way and did you connect?

Fulden: 21:21

Um well, I was pretty lonely. I did have a best friend so this was during middle school but she wasn't interested in the same kind of music that I was interested in, so it wasn't like we weren't necessarily bonding over music. So I was precisely lonely in that regard.

Carolina: 21:44

Right, but when I?

Fulden: 21:45

got to high school I did meet a lot of people who were interested in similar kinds of music and that's when we started playing together. But my discovery of hole. I mean I was already aware of them because they were so popular throughout my childhood. But the summer that I finished middle school I took this trip to California and I discovered this record store in Clermont. It was in Clermont at the time. Later it moved, I think, some other place but it's called Reiner record and they had like all these CDs or four and I got like maybe like four or five albums.

David: 22:33

Do you have any more in the back please?

Fulden: 22:35

Exactly. So I basically spent all my allowance on these records during that trip and then the rest of the trip. I was there with my best friend, so she was like paying for my food herself. But so that was very formative for me because I didn't have access to these records in Turkey. It was a very limited selection that we had in Turkey at the time.

Fulden: 23:09

And then it wasn't very common to download or stream music during those years. I mean, some people did it, there was Lime Wire or whatever, but it wasn't very common. So yeah, it became this very formative experience having all these albums at hand. They became my friends, of course.

David: 23:33

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and I think that's kind of like thinking with that question of sometimes music can be our friend and that's who we spend time with, or it can be this way we find other people, we connect because of those similarities, and so yeah thanks for that.

Raza: 23:53

Yeah, I got a quick question. So in Turkey, if you went to, like your local record store or cassette or CD store to look for some of these records, some of these more obscure type bands, what was that interaction like? Did they look at you funny, Like oh, why are you looking for these obscure bands that no one's ever heard of? You should listen to I don't know Michael Jackson instead, or something more popular. Can you describe that a little bit?

Fulden: 24:23

Well, sometimes it really depends on where you go. At the time there was this little record store in my hometown.

Fulden: 24:34

It was called Excalibur, but it specialized in metal it specialized in metal exactly and it would carry, like all these super obscure metal bands, but also some popular stuff as well. So at some point I think, like the first time I stumbled into the store, I think I bought like a Backstreet Boys CD or whatever, but then, like it was very dark, it was almost like a den inside and the guy who owned the store like just stared at me and like judging me with his eyes basically he's like look, we only put that out to identify who's not allowed to shop at this store anymore.

Fulden: 25:27

But he didn't necessarily carry all these like grand albums or punk albums. He had some of them, but like we really needed a punk record store, I guess, and we didn't have that, it was mainly metal. Metal was very big at the time in Turkey.

Raza: 25:48

Nice. Yeah, I asked because I was trying to find a comparison with Pakistan. I remember visiting a few this was at least 10 years ago now but there's a lot of bootlegging and stuff like that. At least there was back in the day for videos and cassettes and things Basically homemade playlists and someone would create a metal playlist, put it in a store and then sell like hundreds of copies of it. I remember walking in once and asking someone for like a typo negative cassette. I'm like I'm looking for typo negative.

Raza: 26:25

And so this little kid runs in the back of the store. This is, like you said, a den. That's a perfect description. That's exactly what it is. You know, you got stickers and everywhere it's like the CBGB's look. And some kid runs in the back and comes back with a dusty little cassette. Goes is this what you were looking for? And I'm like yes, it is. It was, I think, the October Rust CD, but yeah. But there are also instances where you would ask for you know like, oh, do you have the new Megadeth album or something? And they would look at you funny and go Megadeth, why is such a nice upstanding child listening to Megadeth? You should listen to Backstreet Boys instead. And here's the cassette.

Raza: 27:13

So yeah, I was wondering what that interaction was like in Turkey.

Fulden: 27:17

Well, megadeth at the time was actually very mainstream in Turkey and, like all the high school kids, all the middle school kids, they would all listen to Megadeth and nice, that was good.

David: 27:33

I was just about to ask that because we were saying like you know, what you wanted was harder to find, or you you know. But I was going to ask you know what was the dominant popular music that everybody was listening to in middle and high school? So it was metal.

Fulden: 27:47

Yeah, it was metal and this was like right around the time when new metal became huge. So I think that also. I mean, when I was in middle school, everybody in my school listened to new metal, but then afterwards I think it became like a gateway truck for people that they delved more into like other other styles of metal.

David: 28:16

Yeah.

Fulden: 28:17

And that's how everybody like discovered death metal and black metal and so on. In fact, I was playing in high school. My first bands were a black metal band and a doom metal band. Oh yeah. We were playing a lot of metal. Dove right into the deep end.

Carolina: 28:35

I like it. I'm so lost. Can somebody explain to me what new metal is, please?

David: 28:44

So new metal is a think of that metal that got popular like corn, limp, biscuit, system of a down the metal, the metal bands you probably know are new metal bands yeah. Like that you listen to.

David: 28:59

That's super helpful, and it was just that because it, because it had sort of elements of like rap and other things, it sort of like Fulton said it was the gateway drug for a lot of people into other kinds of metal. You know, they get into this and are like I can kind of get with this, and then the metal friends like try this.

Carolina: 29:19

Take it up an arch. That's cool. Thank you, that's helpful and for any audience out there that doesn't know the distinctions, I'll ask about the other kinds of metal later offline. I'll be like let's do metal and what's black. You know, and we were recently when we were in DC, we were in the car and you were explaining all these differences to me. We didn't make it to these genres.

David: 29:41

Yeah yeah, there's that funny meme out there and it's describing different genres of not just metal but sort of you know, rock and stuff like that in like these cute funny ways. So it's like emo the world's awful and I'm sad about it. Hardcore the world's bad and I'm angry about it. What was it? Goth was the world's bad, but there's beauty in the bad, or something like that, just funny.

Carolina: 30:12

I need that. I need that musical dictionary.

David: 30:14

Yeah, that's my favorite one. Yep, that's Roses.

Carolina: 30:18

Oh goodness.

David: 30:19

And metal people are notorious for like arguing about subgenres and everything like that. You hear it all the time. This is not that this is not that. This is what you get down to when people are like just listen to what you like, Don't worry about the labels.

Raza: 30:33

And you know, if you ask the bands themselves, they always say, well, no, we refuse to conform to any specific subgenre. Yeah, it's like we have elements of everything else. It's like, yeah, but there is definitely one, you know. Sorry, but hate to stereotype the metal, but it's there.

Carolina: 30:52

Well, I think you know, once you start to discover it. A little like me, I had lots of questions Like what's this or what's the difference? You know what would we classify this? So, like, just as you're learning about it, it can help to classify some things, even if it's loosely. So you know, you know, and it might help you open to like what you might like further, right, yeah.

David: 31:17

Yeah, you need to label it a little bit, like you said, so we can communicate about it, right? Like, oh, what kind of music is that? It's like you can't just be like. It's no kind of music, it's just music. And it's like that was a great conversation, right.

Carolina: 31:31

If I said what's new metal? And you came at me with, like it's typically defined by these time signatures and I'd be like you lost me. You lost me when you give me bands.

David: 31:40

That's easy, because new metal is almost oh no Four four, four, four, all the time. You can't be throwing any seven, eight or, you know, 15, 16th time signatures in new metal. I knew I opened the can of worms. I knew it when I brought up time signatures.

Carolina: 31:58

Oh my goodness.

Raza: 32:01

I knew David was all over, that he says no, no, hold on, I got it.

Carolina: 32:08

So you know, thinking about our day to day lives and the role that music plays, sometimes music can can transport us to a specific time in our life or place. So for your next song, what's a song that you know right, when you hear it, you're just instantly transported to a specific time or place. What's that song and where does it take you?

Fulden: 32:32

So every time I hear babes in Toyland's Dustcake Boy, I'm always transported to the first year of college when I was trying to get adjusted to a new city and I was listening to a lot of babes in Toyland at the time and I really wanted to be like and sound like a cat. Who's the lead singer and the guitarist of Babes in Toyland and I thought she sounds fantastic and I'm actually very lucky because they did like a reunion tour and I got to see them live in Portland at some point when I was living in Oregon and so at the time we had just started this punk band called Second, then Underpants, from two of my friends from high school and we all ended up in Istanbul together to go to college and so I would play this for them and I would be like, how does she sound like that? Like how can she do all these screams? I want to sound like that, and so my best friend at the time, jeran, she said, well, she's just, you know, she's just like being free. You know she's just super confident and you can too if you're like that. And I'm like no.

Fulden: 34:02

But then, years later actually, I realized that there was a lot of truth to that, I realized that I was often holding back, thinking that it wouldn't sound good, or at least like it wouldn't sound as good that I, you know, couldn't do it. And those are limiting beliefs that we need to find a way to get rid of, I think, and I mean, that's how you find your own voice, I guess, by not thinking that, oh, it's not going to sound good, you just need to let that go and just let it be, and eventually it will sound good. So I just always think about that whenever I hear that song Nice.

David: 34:51

Let's listen. Dave's in Toilet. It's awesome.

Carolina: 35:36

How does it feel listening to it now?

Fulden: 35:39

Well, it feels really dynamic, it pulls you in and I kind of want to dance right now. But at the time this band was like nothing that I had ever heard before and I do think that they are very unique in their own way. And so they were active during the grunge era and they had a lot of grunge in their music. But I think that all these other elements that makes what they're doing very original and it's just their own sound Like the drumming is so different than what you usually hear, and Kat's voice and her guitar and the bass, like everything is so unique to me. So it always pulls me in. Yeah, I love them to this day.

Raza: 36:35

I love what you said about vocal performance and how, unless you let everything out, unless you let it loose, it really for some reason it does translate. When you're singing into a mic and the sound that comes out If you don't put everything you've got in it, for some reason it translates. People can tell in what they're hearing that it doesn't sound right, and then if you just close your eyes and let it loose, for whatever reason, it sounds more authentic, it sounds better, which is the truth, which is that there is a difference between letting loose versus holding things back. And for some reason, for vocalists it really does translate over into there's something between mouth to microphone to speaker that it has to be authentic, otherwise it sounds terrible and this sounds good. Yeah.

Fulden: 37:46

So the first time I actually sang on stage was for our union. One of our union events, the great cover up in Oregon. We did like a. We had a bikini kill cover band. And that was actually the first time that I managed to play and sing at the same time, whereas before that felt very impossible for me. But during that event which is not necessarily a punk event, it just has all these different genres, but we were the first band to play- I guess that night you guys crashed that night.

Fulden: 38:25

Well, what happened was? We started playing and I just started screaming, basically, and then people were. Some people were covering their ears, which I thought was hilarious. But I had so much fun with it. I actually saw that and felt affirmed by it rather than feeling oh, I must sound horrible or something, because I wanted it to sound very loud.

Speaker 1: 38:54

Yeah, that was a lot of fun that was a lot of fun.

Raza: 38:57

That's what punk rock is. Right, mission accomplished, yeah.

Carolina: 39:02

Folden. You're kind of blowing my mind right now and I'll say because so in the. So David notoriously loves metal, I sort of notoriously don't, and my feeling generally it's more of a gut feeling. When I hear the screaming it makes me tense up and I tell him my joke that it makes me feel stabby Like it just makes me feel like aggressive. But I think maybe my approach to the music wasn't fully open and so hearing you describe the idea of the screaming as almost like human, primal, like letting go, like a freedom in it, I'm having a moment with it, like it's making me think about it differently than then. Aggression, which very well might be there in some songs, depending on lyrics and depending like that that's still very much might be there. But I think I was painting it all with the same brush and thinking about it as like a letting go of emotion and sound.

Fulden: 40:11

Yeah, so I have this, this condition. It's called Hashimoto's and it's it's like it has to do with the thyroid, and so for years I try to like they say it's not curable, it's just something that you live with and you just take thyroid pills, but then you have, like all kinds of other symptoms, depending on if you're hyper or hyper. You just tend to oscillate between the two a lot. But so at some point, my dad was actually the one who told me this. He said look, you're boiling up a lot of emotions and you're not expressing yourself, and this has to do with your throat chakra. So he's all into that, that like chakra, like energy thing. And he said, like you need to learn to express yourself and this is how you're going to feel better. And that's actually how I started to sing and it does help a lot. Yeah, so that that was a game changer for me. I don't know, but yeah, it does make you feel really I don't know like empowered to be able to do that.

David: 41:35

Yeah, I was thinking about it in getting your songs ready for today. You know, you've got a lot of punk rock on here and you know the screaming and the letting loose. And I was thinking about as adults we really don't yell and scream that much. Right, there's not a lot of opportunities to do it unless you are a lead singer of a punk rock band or something like that. But when you're kids, you know you're yelling, you're screaming, you're, you know playing all that stuff.

David: 42:03

And I, what you just said speaks so true in the sense you know of. You know we talk about how we sit so much now as human beings and that's really fucking us up, because we were meant to move and walk and I wonder if we're also meant to like yell and scream and sort of adult life in our contemporary society doesn't allow it. Because, yeah, there's something very freeing about it, like I think about it now and like, yeah, go let out a scream and I'm like, no, I can't do that, that's, that's not what you want. But it's like civilized civilized, you know what would people think, but it's like just so great. And I think that's another thing, carolina, to your point about metal and punk and hardcore, whatever it is, that's, you know, stabby music, as you describe it. That's what I think is really there, because when I hear it I feel that release, they're screaming for me, in a sense, like I'm not screaming but I can hear this person screaming, and that's kind of solidarity with that. So I love your explanation.

Raza: 43:06

Well, you know, from like a PR perspective, that's that that's exactly what a lot of at least the bigger metal bands are doing. They're calling their shows. You know whether they call it like a ritual, like the way ghosts does, or whether they call it like like a family reunion. I mean, if you go to like a Metallica show, hetfield's up there and he talks about, hey, the Metallica family is here, it's like it's family, we're here together in this, like positive experience. You know, chanting and screaming and letting loose, and it's a good thing, and I think something about that. You know, in our times, at least these days, it really resonates. It's just like, yeah, you've got 80,000, 100,000 fans screaming their heads off for, you know, a couple of hours and then after that, we're good, we're happy, we're chill, right.

David: 43:57

You know I scream at the show so I don't stab people Exactly yeah.

Fulden: 44:02

Well also as a kid, like you pointed out, david, you, you scream not only when you're throwing a fit, but also when you're just like playing and you're really happy, and so it's.

Fulden: 44:16

It can also be kind of like that when you're singing. It doesn't always have to be an expression of anger or negative emotions or just like bottled up feelings, but it could just be a form of play, and that's how I've always seen music to be just a form of play. And anything could really be a form of play, anything that makes you feel really exhilarated and whole and powerful, and that's just one of those things, I guess.

David: 44:52

Yeah, totally yeah, I'm thinking of having a weird reference here, but there's a very famous in the running world ultra runner, Scott Jurick. He said all kinds of records and stuff like that and his thing is before the start of every race, when everyone's lined up right before the gun goes off, he lets out this like gutter roll, like yell, and it kind of just gets him in the mindset of like you know, kind of going primal and we're going to run this race and I'm going to do it and it's. And it's so funny because when you see him, he, he doesn't look like someone. I mean I guess I'm stereotyping there, but you're like no, you wouldn't do that.

Carolina: 45:33

You're super, like you know proper.

David: 45:37

Yeah, yeah, but but yeah, I think that's something to it and it sort of sets it up like folding, like you said, like we're going to go run this you know 50 mile race or whatever through the woods and there's play in that, and so let me just pull up my inner child, let out a good scream and go run. So yeah, I think there's definitely something there.

Carolina: 45:57

I'm going to go in the bathroom and yell after this. Well, I'm having all kinds of feelings, because at what point in kids lives do we tell them to like stop screaming and shut? Up and quiet down and like what are we doing?

David: 46:12

Everything wrong?

Carolina: 46:15

Oh, there's going to be one of those episodes that just like melts my brain.

Raza: 46:21

Well, carolina, you know Episode One. You know David's episode was supposed to be. You know, one of our I guess maybe was like an unspoken goal was to get you more in tune with punk and metal. I think we're pretty close. I think we're getting there.

Carolina: 46:40

You're getting there.

Raza: 46:41

You're getting there You're getting there.

David: 46:43

I just had to bring in the big guns.

Raza: 46:45

Folding had to come along, that's right.

Carolina: 46:49

You're like no more messing around, we're bringing on the ultimate here. Oh, that's good stuff. I'm going to. For hours after this I'm going to be sitting there going. What else am I like did? I not see.

Carolina: 47:03

But to move us ahead, thinking about. Sometimes in our lives, when we have difficult moments, music can help get us through, help guide us or be our friends and sometimes, you know, when we listen to it years later, it can bring up challenging memories or things like that. So, for your next song, what's a song that maybe maybe you struggle or not to listen to, but it's definitely connected to difficult memories? What song is it?

Fulden: 47:34

For me it's your Graduation by Modern Baseball. It's a pop punk song that is somewhat sad. It's my depression song and I tend to listen to it on loop when I'm depressed, but it has that uplifting effect for me, I don't know. It's comforting in some way for me and it may have to do with the fact that pop punk got really big when I was growing up. I wasn't really interested in it at the time. I thought it was kind of silly, like all these Blink 182 videos that were on MTV and they were doing this like ridiculous stuff. So this was right around the same time when they had those shows like what was it called? Like they were harming each other, doing all these jackass, oh jackass.

David: 48:38

Yes.

Fulden: 48:39

So it was kind of like that part of that whole, like what are you doing? The type of response that I had.

David: 48:47

to those things your adult came out right there, the punk rocker took a break and it's like what are all these people who are harming each other?

Fulden: 48:57

Well, yeah, and like as a kid, I thought it was somewhat funny, but I didn't really identify with pop punk all that much, even though it was really huge in Turkey and, you know, everywhere else pretty much.

Fulden: 49:14

But right during my late 20s and like early 30s, I rediscovered pop punk and I discovered all these bands that I never heard before, like modern baseball or the Atari's, and I like really fell in love with them and listening to them made me feel very nostalgic because they sounded like all these bands that I didn't like when I was a kid, but they were playing everywhere. But to me it felt like something that I failed to appreciate at the time and just took for granted, and now that I've gotten older it just brings me back to those times. So this is, for me, like a very comforting song, and it's a song about like literally it's a terrible song. I mean, it's very creepy and toxic. Oh no, it's about this guy who's like obsessed with this girl for like three years and can't stop thinking about her, but then, like he finally lets go and I guess that's what your graduation means Like she has graduated from his thoughts or whatever, you moved on.

Fulden: 50:40

Yeah, I mean he uses that metaphorically, but maybe there was also an actual graduation. I don't know about that. But the video is really great too. I really enjoyed the music video of that song as well, but it's in general it's just something that it sounds very sad, but ironically it's also uplifting and comforting and it has rescued me from tremendous heartbreak and it's just a song that I very much like, even though it's tied to a lot of difficult times that I've gone through. Let's take a listen.

Carolina: 52:06

That sounds fun, it is.

Fulden: 52:08

Like I can see why it's uplifting.

Carolina: 52:10

It's got that good nostalgic kind of early-ish 2000s I don't know what.

Raza: 52:18

Yeah, some 41-ish.

Fulden: 52:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

David: 52:24

It's this like pop. Punk is funny in that way, especially like as you get into the more emo things and stuff like that, and it's this like upbeat song, but it's like I'm going to slit my wrist because I can't be with you and you're like, the sounds and the lyrics don't go together here.

Fulden: 52:41

At some point. I try to play this song and it has the most complicated chords that I've ever seen in my life and I still can't play it Like I have no idea. I mean, it sounds very easy when you listen to it. Oh, like this one, you know, but it's really not. It's a very difficult song to play.

Raza: 53:06

It sounded cool. It sounds like it. I'm going to go back and definitely listen to this one again, because it sounds like it goes through different like modes. There's some quieter moments and then there's some like heavier moments and there's some yeah, I like that, like there's a lot to it. I like it.

Fulden: 53:24

Yeah, and so the part that we listened to. At the end the drummer is actually singing there, so it's an interesting song in that regard too. Yeah, drummer has a verse in it.

David: 53:37

I have a thing as a drummer. I have a thing against drummers that sing but not like in their ability to sing, like I don't think drummers should sing because they don't have a voice, but just as a drummer, I feel like when they're singing they are potentially sacrificing the drumming in that way. But we'll leave that for another show, because another podcast altogether, because this is judgment free, so I'm not going to talk any more.

Carolina: 54:10

This one's judgment free. So we need to find the judgy music podcast.

David: 54:14

That's right. That's right If your music is there. I'll start that for myself and I'll just complain about things.

Raza: 54:21

Maybe like the Andy Rooney of here, I am listening to more music that I hate.

David: 54:29

No, you said, folden, that you listen to this when you're depressed or when you're down and it comforts you. We've used the phrase before of a life preserver song, so that song you need when I can't make it and I need to keep from drowning. How do you feel that working for you? Is it the fact that someone else is feeling that same way and so you feel less alone, or how does that life preserver song work for you?

Fulden: 55:10

Well, I think a part of it is the sound. It just reminds me of early 2000s, when I was still a kid. I think a part of it is that, but also, literally, I just call it toxic. But I tend to also get like that sometimes. I tend to get very obsessive and find it very difficult to move on and since this is a song that has that or explores that theme, like someone is having a really difficult time moving on, but then he eventually does.

Fulden: 55:48

I think it resonates with me on that level as well, you see yourself in it, yeah. And it's funny that you what did you call it Like a life-saver.

David: 56:01

A life preserver. Oh, life preserver, yeah Like you're on a boat and you go overboard and you throw the life preserver or the what's the ring called? I don't even know, because the life preserver is technically something you wear, but it came up in our previous episode, oh floaties, or did the floaties yeah floaties. Little floaties little wings. Whatever you want.

Fulden: 56:22

This song was actually featured in one of those compilation albums that go with the name Songs that Saved my Life, oh, so it was covered.

Fulden: 56:32

There you go Like. These albums are basically covers by a bunch of different bands of songs that they deem to have saved their lives. So this was covered by another pop punk band and I'm blanking on their name right now, but I like the original better, I think, even though the cover is still good, it's just, the original seems to have a much more of an intensity of feeling, I guess. Yeah.

Raza: 57:08

I like how you said that the lyrics can be little, they can be taken as toxic and things like that, but I think that that's precisely the point of art, of entertainment, and art is to delve into those creepy or dark or offensive or rebellious themes. It's important to do that because I think that it allows, when you allow artists to have that space, to explore it and then come to some conclusion, whatever that is, and put it out there. I think that expression is super important because, for the very reason that I mean, life isn't all peaches and unicorns and it's important to delve into those themes so that if an audience member resonates with it, it can actually literally save their life, it can literally make them feel like they are not alone, and to prevent artists from having the ability or the right to express that. Whether it sounds creepy.

Raza: 58:17

If verse one is creepy or wrong or it's expressing some thoughts that are just jarring for some people, chances are by the time they get to the conclusion of that piece of art, there will be something positive in it, and I think that that space should be there. A lot of times I know that, especially from a cultural standpoint, art stuff gets banned and stuff gets censored and things like that, and it's important to recognize that stuff that is just on face value might seem wrong or toxic or dark or whatever. It can actually save someone's life. Anyway, I'm done with my soapbox now.

Fulden: 59:04

I certainly agree with that. But the danger that I see in this song in particular is this romanticization of this way of not only behaving, but even if it's someone who is not necessarily bothering anyone, it's still like a romanticization of self-harm of some kind, and I think it's important to not romanticize that. And I think it's very common in pop punk in particular, to romanticize self-pity and self-harm and all these things. I think we need to have conversations about how we can take up these topics but then put them in a different kind of a frame. That's not going to render them as something that's good and desirable, but we need to have these conversations so that we could explore these topics in a way that would serve healing in some way. And I don't mean to say that. I don't mean to say like this song is terrible and we should censor it.

Carolina: 1:00:32

I don't mean that, but I just think that there is this trend that could possibly be harmful, right, Because if we take, you can consider the lyrics or art a metaphor for insert several aspects of your life. And so to Roz's point, I feel like it's good to express those things, but I think if we just leave it like within and not discuss the topic whatever's coming up for you, then it can like fester into something harmful, right? Sometimes toxic lyrics like this can make us self reflect on times in our lives where we were in our best selves, when we gave into vices or obsessions or, you know, didn't handle that break up with your life and you know, things like that.

Carolina: 1:01:22

But there is that danger folding of like aspiring to that in the future. And so I think if we don't, if we just sit with the music but don't talk about it, with the talk about the feelings that come up with anyone, then yeah, there's there's risk that it becomes romanticized or like aspirational and then something like more dangerous. But then when you talk in community or friendship and share, like this is what's coming up for me, you know, yeah yeah, you said conversation.

Raza: 1:01:54

I think that's that's, that's the key right. It's you have the space to say you know what's what's on someone's mind, but let's talk about it, let's have, let's engage and let's discuss and and let's really understand, you know in a positive way, what, what, what, what can be done with what outcomes. We can come up with that actually facilitate healing and things like that.

Carolina: 1:02:23

And I think throughout the story we've told so far, you've had quite a bit of changes, right moving to a new city for for college, and then you know you met David all the way in Oregon, so far, far away from Turkey. You've had a lot of transitions in your life and sometimes music you know kind of scores, the soundtrack to some of those transitions. For your next song, what? What's that song that you associate with kind of a weighty transition in your life.

Fulden: 1:02:55

Richard by Bratmobile is a song that I associate with Oregon a lot and, having lived there for five years doing my PhD there, lots of memories. But I think it's mostly because Bratmobile started in Eugene Oregon. They were students at the University of Oregon at the time, which is where David and I went many years later, but there was the traces of them a little bit. I mean, there was that record shop Was it called like the House of Records or something? I think that used to be like a studio for them, Like there was a studio in the back where Bratmobile used to play. So I mean, I was very excited when I got the news that I got into Oregon, not just because I was happy that I got into a PhD program, but also because that's where like that's where Ride Girls started and all these bands that I really love are from the Northwest, so I was hoping that I would see like a lot of shows there, but of course I mean the movement had died out. Although.

Fulden: 1:04:20

I did see some like really, really cool shows during my time in Oregon. But yeah, the song is a. It's a sad song and Oregon is somewhat of a sad place that doesn't have a lot of sunshine and it rains a lot, so that was kind of difficult for me as someone who's just so used to the sunshine. But, yeah, we took a lot of vitamin D and we, I mean, enjoyed the trees. It was very green, yeah, but the song still reminds me a lot of Oregon.

David: 1:05:01

Nice, let's take a listen and go back to Eugene Oregon. I can totally see that just being played like and some random place Like I can imagine walking into like a pizza joint and they're up there just singing away.

Fulden: 1:05:56

Yeah, it sounds like rainy weather, doesn't it? Yes, totally.

Fulden: 1:06:01

Yes, One thing that really impressed me about Bratmobile is that it started. It was started by, just you know, some university students who had no idea how to play any instruments, but they wanted to be a part of the right girl movement, so they basically picked up a guitar and then they ended up recording one of my all-time favorite albums, and I think that it's actually like one of the punk classics their debut Party Mouth. It's just like such a wonderful album. It's full of these like punk hits.

Fulden: 1:06:49

And it's also the music got featured in this one video game called Gone Home, which is set in Oregon, so I mean it's like yeah it sounds very much like Oregon and it's yeah, it's Oregonian music, I guess. Yeah.

David: 1:07:15

So the move to Oregon and the decision to apply to the University of Oregon for your PhD what motivated that? How did University of Oregon get on your radar? How did you, how did you find yourself applying there?

Fulden: 1:07:33

So I was actually initially a psychology student as an undergrad. In Turkey you don't declare a major, you take a test and then they place you so you like after you take the test and you get like your points or whatever you say okay so this is the university and the major that I want to be in.

Fulden: 1:07:58

So you like enter the university already with a major and it's actually very difficult to change it. If you want to change later on you may even have to take the test again. But so I wanted to be a therapist and that's why I wanted to study psychology. But then I was also very much interested in reading. Like psychoanalytic theory, I really liked reading in general, but in psychology all we had were textbooks, which I did not like reading and there wasn't anything to think about there.

Fulden: 1:08:37

They were just conveying information that we were supposed to know.

Fulden: 1:08:42

There were no discussions, nothing, and that felt very like flat to me. I did not enjoy that. So I started taking philosophy courses and then I ended up double majoring in philosophy. But the thing about philosophy was that I really liked contemporary philosophy and continental philosophy in particular, and I didn't enjoy having to go back to these really old texts and then discussing is this what they meant or did they mean this other thing? That kind of felt like well, I'm not interested in any of that, I'm just interested in how philosophy can offer a new perspective on the contemporary issues that we are having.

Fulden: 1:09:40

So I didn't want to go to a very classical philosophy like a traditional philosophy department. I applied to a lot of interdisciplinary programs, given that I was interested in doing critical theory mostly. But those programs they had very little funding so they could either unable to admit international students or they only admitted one international student or something. And this was right around the time when most of those programs were located in California and California was going bankrupt. At the time the UC system was failing. So I applied to a bunch of different places, some more traditional departments than others, and I did get into two master's programs, but Oregon was the only PhD program that offered like a full package with a fellowship and everything. So that was a really great deal, even though I kind of wanted to go to new school.

Fulden: 1:10:53

They only gave me one third of a scholarship and New York City is very expensive. So I figured, well, I don't think I'll be able to do this and yeah, but I loved Oregon, I loved going there, I loved the program and I'm so thankful to have met you two there as well.

David: 1:11:17

The bonus. I feel the same way. Yeah, whatever my time in Oregon was, yeah, I met some, definitely met some good people.

Fulden: 1:11:25

And it definitely was not a traditional philosophy program, which I also appreciated. Yeah, that's what I was looking for too.

David: 1:11:33

So you know classes in Native American philosophy, feminist philosophy, philosophy of race, just like you said. You know all of those things that aren't just. Let's rehash what Aristotle really meant when he said this you know.

Carolina: 1:11:49

And that was required. Like I remember that. I found that super impressive, that like the feminist philosophy and stuff was required for everybody. Yeah, I remember being super impressed by that. It's a must have.

Fulden: 1:12:04

It's one of the few universities that do that I think it's very difficult to design your graduate program like that, but they somehow managed to do it and everyone's on board with it, which I think is great yeah at my university we don't have, like any required courses whatsoever, so people just take whatever they want.

Fulden: 1:12:27

But I very much enjoyed taking courses, even courses that I had no interest in, like analytic philosophy. Those pro seminars were a way to like. Those required pro seminars were a way to build community, also because it was always like the first and the second years like taking them together. So, yeah, I thought it was great.

David: 1:12:55

And it's a way to figure out what you don't want to do, right? Yeah, because you're like, I think I'm drawn to this same as like music. Right, you hear different music and you're like, well, let me explore this and check it out and maybe there's something to it. Or maybe I realize, yeah, that's really not my thing. So yeah.

David: 1:13:14

That's so funny, too, that you mentioned new school. I'm sure, like all of us, people that were wanting to do graduate work and philosophy, that were interested in these non traditional, more contemporary critical theory stuff, did the same thing. Because I was the same way as you and I was like I'm glad to new school. And they called me like a week before classes started actually and we're like hey, we have a spot for you. And I'm like I have a family. I can't move to New York in a week. It's not going to happen. And then like funding issues, yeah, it's like it was super expensive.

Carolina: 1:13:48

I did a degree after my bachelor's at the new school, at the Parsons School of Design, and I finished the two year degree in one year because it was so expensive like doubled up on courses and I was like I just need the degree.

Carolina: 1:14:04

So expensive between the school and just New York City. Like living in in the city was like who's just a lot I love hearing just because we have that shared experience in Oregon, but like a song that reminds you of of that time I think I have I didn't equate the weather so much, but I think that's part of the package like I have fond memories of that time the rain, the like, darkness, but also like just really cool people, I think. As you were describing the department, I remember Like all of you went on strike, like in the rain, just like picketing and stuff like I don't know, it just felt like a really cool time.

David: 1:14:47

Yeah, going on strike in Eugene Oregon has like an extra layer of it, because it's like that's where you know the anarchist movement in the 70s really got going the the eco anarchism or not, eco environmental environmental. And it's like going there in the 70s. So, yeah, definitely has that, you know, and a great place to, like you said, get do punk rock.

Carolina: 1:15:15

Right, listen to music. Different from all the other cities in which I've lived in the United States, like it just has its own vibe out there.

David: 1:15:27

Did you know when? When you got into Oregon and came through PhD, did you have a plan of what you wanted to do after, in the sense of? Was the plan always to move back to Turkey and get a teaching position there, or was it just sort of like in the academic world? I'm going to wherever I can get a job.

Fulden: 1:15:48

Well, actually it's funny because I kind of saw that fellowship as my way out. I couldn't wait to get out of Turkey at that point, and I think this is a sentiment that's shared by a lot of young people who live here. Given that the you know the ruling party, it looks like they're not going anywhere for any time soon and their politics is just incredibly capitalistic and also like repressive in all these other ways, and so I mean right now especially, the economy is also terrible. So on top of all of that, there are all these like other issues, but so at the time I thought that I never wanted to come back, but being apart for a few years, I actually like really really missed home. I got very sick when I lived in. Oregon.

Fulden: 1:16:57

And during my fifth year, I just remember even telling my advisor I told her like I can't do this, like I really need to go back. I really wanted me to apply jobs in the States as well, which I did, and I think if I hadn't had to finish up so quickly because I wanted to just finish in five years and not take like a sixth year there, I had to like finish my dissertation the same year and did all those job applications during the same year, which is sort of wild.

Fulden: 1:17:33

But if I hadn't done that, if I just took another year, I probably would have ended up with a job in the States. But I was kind of afraid because I was getting all these interviews and I was kind of scared, like I don't want to get this job but I need the practice. So I'm going to do the interview but I don't want to stay in the States. So I was very anxious about that Because if I were to be offered the job, like I'm not going to turn it down.

Fulden: 1:18:03

Right, I'm going to take it, but I really wanted to go back and it's funny because I was so eager to go back, but the summer I went back. There was a coup attempt and then there was like a state of emergency for so long and there was also like this witch hunt of dissenting academics and I was a signatory to this key statement and they were basically firing people who signed this statement and I somehow, like in the midst of all of that, I managed to get a position at Middle East Technical University, which is known as a very like a left leaning university, historically too. I mean, we have a stadium that has the word revolution, like they've written in Turkish written on it. Yeah, it worked out, but yeah, it was strange, like leaving Turkey and not expecting to go back, but then right, sick and like not waiting.

Fulden: 1:19:14

Yeah being able to wait to come back and yeah.

David: 1:19:18

Yeah, it goes to like the music point and the you know the Aristotle point or whatever, like sometimes you've got to explore other things just to know what you had is what you wanted.

Carolina: 1:19:28

Yeah, All right, we are nearing.

David: 1:19:32

Moving along.

Carolina: 1:19:33

We're at your last song and I'm super excited about this song Because it's your band. So, yeah, what's the song? Sorry, I got excited. What's a song that's part of a perfect moment where everything just felt right for you.

Fulden: 1:19:52

So this song is called Cargo Shorts and Broken Hearts and it's by literally anything before Bros, which is my new band, and we just released a full length album this summer last summer and this song is a song that I wrote during the pandemic, which was a very intense period for a lot of people, and so during this period I actually wrote a lot of songs. I wrote most of this album during the pandemic and I think it's quite typical for a lot of musicians. There are all these albums that were coming out post pandemic and this is actually one of them but the song is really about healing for me Because during the pandemic I have had to sort of figure out ways to make myself feel safe and make myself like cheer myself up really, and because we had no way to get together with people and just sort of get our mind off of things. I was struggling a lot and I already mentioned that I have this tendency to become obsessive and that got very heightened during this time, when we were let up.

Fulden: 1:21:29

So I basically wrote the song as part of that healing journey, trying to figure out well, how can I be otherwise, how can I do otherwise, how can I embrace this other way of being that's not going to indicate self sabotage and that's not going to be harmful for me. And I really like this song. I think it's my favorite on the album, even though it's not very punk. It's a song that I kind of experimented with in terms of my singing style. I had never sung in that way before and that was sort of difficult for me because I was just going high and low a lot, and I think this is the first time that I tried doing that. So it's challenging, not just lyrically, but also musically as well. Yeah, that's the song.

David: 1:22:39

Nice, let's take a listen. I love it.

Raza: 1:23:29

It's cool, I like it. What's your favorite lyric from that song?

Fulden: 1:23:40

My favorite lyric from that song. I'm blanking on the lyric right now. No, that was part of the song.

Raza: 1:23:51

I'm sorry.

Fulden: 1:23:53

But there's this part about trying to do what's best for me, rather than what I'm used to or familiar with. But I think that's what happens with trauma bonding, and sometimes it's very difficult to differentiate that from the love that you feel for someone. If it's trauma bond and if it's a terrible relationship for you, you just stay with it instead of just taking a step back and thinking okay, this is a form of self-sabotage.

Fulden: 1:24:31

So, even though I'm very attached, I need to find a way to sort of protect myself and choose to do what's best for me. So the song is about that investment to become our favorite selves. So I used to say our best selves, but then I heard someone say that puts a lot of pressure. So instead of best selves, maybe say your favorite self, which sounds much more doable. And it's not the criterion, it's not external to you.

Fulden: 1:25:15

It's becoming that person that you really like being. So the song is about that, so that's my favorite part, I guess just becoming your favorite self.

David: 1:25:31

I love that it reminds me of. I heard a quote recently. I want to say it was Rick Rubin that said it and it was like sort of the definition of success is creating something that you like. And if you can do that, you've done it right. And I think what you're saying right there is just it, your favorite self. Like if you can put something out there and create something and you go I like that, that's gold. And it goes back to, I think, to what we were saying way back at the beginning of sort of the writing process and you can't censor yourself, you've got to just be free and put it out there. Like you can't write music or create really almost any art by trying to think what people would want, right, because then it just comes out as false and fake and you're trying to get standards aren't there. You've got to just do what you want, and so I appreciate it.

David: 1:26:39

I love we listen to one of Raza's songs on his interview, and this is probably one of my favorite parts of doing these is having people on and listening to their music. It's just like I just love it. I love hearing someone's music and then talking to him about it. It's just, it's great. So thank you, thank you.

Fulden: 1:27:03

Thank you and David, I've been actually meaning to ask you about it. You're sure it's not sure. Yeah, that's like a festival or something, so it's.

David: 1:27:14

it's from what I know of it, we just moved to the Nashville area last summer, so we've only been there about a year. And so what do you do when you get to a new place? You start finding the Facebook groups and other things of what you like, and so, yeah, this is a national hardcore is a Facebook group and group of people that share upcoming shows, talk about the scene, share different stuff, and they recently just put out some shirts for for the group so we can represent. Now is like what a perfect time to wear it when we're we've got this punk rock hardcore stuff for the show. So are there a lot?

David: 1:27:56

of hardcore bands in Nashville. There's a. There's a decent scene, actually there's a. It's so funny because you have downtown Nashville, right Broadway, the strip with all the you know honky tonk bars and you know all of that, and there's all the bachelorette parties there and they all look the same because they all get the cowboy hats and pink and the sashes and it's it's just such a tourist scene. And then you go across the river to the east side of Nashville and that's where all like the authentic local places are to see bands and there's some there's some venues there with some history to them.

David: 1:28:45

To Carolyn and I just went and saw a show, not a hardcore show, but at oh, was it Exit in?

Carolina: 1:28:54

I think so yeah.

David: 1:28:57

People are going to kill me in Nashville for not knowing that, because it's like the story Places to lots of lots of bands and then right across the street from that is another venue that has lots of people. So, yeah, nashville is really kind of Like it's known, as you know, country music haven, but it's really becoming just kind of a, you know, I mean it's called Music City, right, so it's like there's there's lots of different music there, so that's pretty cool.

Fulden: 1:29:27

Yeah, it would be so much fun to play that one day. It's my bad remesculator.

David: 1:29:33

Totally, totally 100% when I get more connected with some people and get going to more shows and see what's going on. See if we can't get you to come over.

Fulden: 1:29:46

Yeah, so we also.

David: 1:29:48

That would.

Carolina: 1:29:49

So, yeah, the music venue is called Exit in and it's yeah, it's, it's historic. Lots of you know bands and stuff have played like early shows. It's a tiny place but it's near, I think, like that music row. There's like a street in Nashville and don't come at me and comments if I get this wrong, but it's got all like the music labels have like offices there and stuff like that. So the city itself is very musically driven from a business standpoint and artists that might not be country but come here for you know vocal coaches and you know all kinds of other like music industry support that's based here.

Raza: 1:30:28

A lot of metal people are retiring in Nashville. I think that I'm sensing that.

David: 1:30:32

Oh, that's right. Yeah, you mentioned that before. Yeah, lots of people moving back here and stuff.

Raza: 1:30:37

A lot of a lot of people from the night, especially the folks that were big in the 90s and, I guess, early 2000s and stuff. Now, now that they're now that they're in their sort of retirement age, still rocking, but it's like, yeah, let's not do the LA thing anymore and then partying all night, let's kind of go chill and buy a farm or a winery in Nashville and hang out and it's a shame there it's.

David: 1:31:03

It just was. Forbes just did a study. I just saw that Nashville ranks as the number one for worse commute in the country and that factors in infrastructure too. So not just like how much time you spend in your car, but like access to bike lanes and trails and public transportation. There's like no public transportation. It's crazy. And so it's kind of getting to a, I feel, like a breaking point. Not that I'm like ripping on it or anything like that, but like things are going to need to like change in the sense of infrastructure and stuff. Because it's just like the airport they're just building like crazy there, because it's just so many people are going it out and so yeah.

Raza: 1:31:48

Speaking of airports, oh my God, the Istanbul airport is phenomenal. It's it's the biggest structure I've ever seen in my life and it's amazing.

Speaker 1: 1:31:59

So yeah, you guys are, you guys did something really awesome. That's cool.

Fulden: 1:32:06

They do a lot of connecting flights for like. So whenever I have to come back to Ankara from like a place I went to abroad, I always have to fly into that particular airport, but then, like it takes it takes you like so long to just get to the other terminal.

Raza: 1:32:26

Yeah, yeah.

Fulden: 1:32:27

It's huge, but it's it doesn't seem to me to be like very well connected, like it's very difficult to get from a place to another place inside that airport. Yeah, it would have been helpful to have maybe like a tram or something like that.

David: 1:32:46

But yeah, I guess you could. So Nashville and the Istanbul airport both need better public transportation. Yeah.

Raza: 1:32:54

Well, you know, after eating all of that amazing like canafé and baklava and stuff, you got to walk it off. It reminds me of.

Carolina: 1:33:03

LAX. Whenever we would fly back to Oregon and stuff was a lot of times we would connect through LAX. If we were coming from like abroad, you'd have like completely exit through customs and completely go back in and you're like this is taking forever. All right, faldun, we have, we've, we've finished your, your life and six songs story. Thank you so much for trusting us with, with your music and your stories. I'll ask here, as we finish that out, like how does it feel to hear your life reflected through song?

Fulden: 1:33:40

Well, that was. That was a lot of fun. So thank you so much for having me and it. It feels really nice. Yeah, I feel very happy right now. Yeah, because I mean it's all like coming together and the way in which you like organize the questions. It's very chronological almost, so that that felt really nice to just do a little retrospective into my life. Yeah, thank you, this was a lot of fun.

David: 1:34:18

Thank you. Thank you for trusting us with your story and your songs, and it's so great to reconnect to and yes, so awesome. You're not. You're not done quite yet, though we have been kicking over to Raza for our last little part before we All right.

Raza: 1:34:38

Yeah, so, yeah. So, faldun, yeah, it's been, it's been awesome, it's been a pleasure having you on, so yeah, so one of the last things that we do before we sign off is we'll ask our guest what was your your first, last and best or or favorite concert?

Fulden: 1:34:55

I think my first concert was this show that I went to with my dad, and there's this Turkish rock singer. Her name is Shevna Ferrah. She toured with this, this like pop singer, kenan Dulu. They were doing like a Pepsi tour actually, so we went to.

Fulden: 1:35:19

Yeah, but it's like two very different genres but I guess they were both very popular at the time so Pepsi decided to sponsor them or whatever. But I loved Shevna Ferrah at the time. She has a very powerful voice and her music was one of those things that my dad really like approved of like. Spice Girls or.

Fulden: 1:35:44

Britney Spears because she was doing rock and her. It's funny because I had a cassette of her first album and I was using that as the soundtrack to these like stories I would make up like play out with my Barbie dolls. I would basically like do like a whole play with my dolls, but anyways, that was the first show and it blew my mind.

Fulden: 1:36:16

And yeah, and I'm so glad that I shared that with my dad, who introduced me to a lot of music and I think he introduced me to Shevna Ferrah too. So the last show that I went to was by this Australian band called D'snuts, and they're a hardcore band and this was in Istanbul a few weeks ago and I mean it was a good show. It's just not the kind of hardcore that I really like. It's like it's super masculine and I guess like a lot of hardcore is, but this one in particular. I mean the band is called D'snuts.

Fulden: 1:37:07

And it's a very representative name.

Fulden: 1:37:10

Like the whole show smelled like D'snuts, if you know what I mean. I went there with, actually, like my partner, whom we just started dating a few months ago, and that was like the third show, I guess that we went to, and he's not really into that band either, but he like bought a ticket and like asked me if I wanted to go and I was like, yeah, why not? He lives in Istanbul, so I was going to be there for that weekend anyways. So we went there and we I mean it was fine, like we weren't in the mosh pit or anything, we were just like in the back and just like watching and also watching people, and people were having a lot of fun. And it's also a venue that I don't really like a lot.

Fulden: 1:38:03

The sound quality is not that great there, but I mean, yeah, we saw that band and yeah, it's a different kind of an experience, I guess. But the best show that I saw is L7. And I saw them in Portland and they put up quite a show. It was amazing. But also it's a show that I enjoyed for another kind of a reason as well, and that reason is the audience.

Fulden: 1:38:36

The audience was comprised of like so many different groups of people that there were like some of them were metalheads, they really like heavy metal. Some of them were, like really into grunge and they were doing that whole like plate like shirts and things like that. Some of them were clearly punk rockers with like mohawks and stuff, and, you know, some of them were just ordinary people, I guess. But it amazes me when it's a band that can bring together people who enjoy so many different kinds of music, and L7 is very much like that. I mean you could hear like all these different influences in their music and they were so energetic, even though I mean, they're not old but they are not as young as they used to be, obviously but they were incredibly energetic and they were on tour. We just finished a tour and I don't understand how people just tour most of the year.

Fulden: 1:39:53

It's exhausting, it's exhausting, even though it's so much fun. I don't think I would be able to do that for like six months or something. I think I would just get like two fed up with it at some point. But yeah, so, even though they were on tour and the show was part of a tour, and even though they're not as young as they used to be when they first started playing this music, they were just incredibly dynamic and like so powerful and drew the audience in so much and, yeah, it was just an amazing show.

Raza: 1:40:36

Oh, sounds awesome, Very cool.

Carolina: 1:40:38

Yeah, I'm like taking notes of bands I haven't heard of to check on later. Like the other benefit I'm getting from talking to all of our guests. Totally. So, yeah, thank you again, so much for trusting us and sharing your story with us. In the last couple of minutes we have left, as we sign off, we'd love to give you the floor for a minute to tell folks what you have going on, how they can contact you or listen to your music. Yeah, you can take it away.

Fulden: 1:41:09

Oh, yeah, sure, Thank you. So right now I play in two bands. One of them is called Emasculator, the other one is called Literally Anything Before Bros. So our music is on Spotify and Bandcamp and YouTube and Apple Music and whatever else you know, whatever other platform there is. We have quite a good distributor for our digital releases. So you can easily find our music and like our music, videos and stuff and you could contact me through my email address, which is fulldenxiedemoncom All one word. All one word, yeah.

David: 1:42:00

Fulldenxiedemon Love it All right.

Fulden: 1:42:04

Which is a stage name. Oh, nice.

David: 1:42:09

Love it. Fullden, thank you so much for being on and for, yeah, just being our 10th episode. It's huge in double digits, so that's a lot of fun. So, yeah, just thank you so much for coming on and exposing us to great music and your own music, and yeah, so that's it, everybody. We have reached the end of the episode. Make sure to like and subscribe so you don't miss episodes. Also, check out, being that you know we've got Fullden's music in the playlist today. We also have a Spotify and Apple Music playlist for all the songs that are on our episodes. You can find that by searching a Life in Six Songs playlist on Apple Music and Spotify. So definitely go check that out and with that, we'll see you next time.