Bonus Ep. - Melodies of Resilience: A Soldier's Path to Healing Through Psychedelics

A trigger warning for those listening to this latest episode. Please note that this episode contains content surrounding trauma, self-harm, and PTSD. Please exercise self-care as you need.

Normally, as the title of the podcast dictates, it's a LIFE in six songs, but this episode is a little different. This one will be highlighting a specific experience through music. Today's special episode will focus on our founder and host, David Reese's recent experience in traveling to Mexico for PTSD treatment, primarily through the experience of a psychedelic called Ibogaine.

David was diagnosed with PTSD in 2021, following years of battling the illness as a result of his military service. After that diagnosis, He and Carolina, his partner and co-host, embarked on what's been almost three years of all kinds of different treatments, medications, tools, and therapies, which gratefully helped move the needle, but not quite enough to where David felt a sense of healing. Through a veteran community advocating for psychedelic treatment, Carolina found a treatment clinic in Cancun, Mexico, called Beōnd. This specific clinic uses the psychedelic Ibogaine to treat people struggling with depression, anxiety, PTSD, and also substance abuse. So in today’s episode, we'll be discussing the six songs that David was listening to during his trip and 10-day treatment. 

Medical Disclaimer. None of what we share in this episode should be considered medical advice, and everyone struggling with any of these diagnoses needs to do their own research and due diligence before embarking on a treatment journey.

Find out more about Beōnd and their approach

You can also book an informational call with Beōnd (and let them know you heard about them from A Life in Six Songs Podcast!)

Read the recent Stanford Medicine article about Ibogaine safely leading to improvements in depression, anxiety, and functioning among veterans with traumatic brain injuries. 

Follow your hosts David, Raza, and Carolina as they embark on an epic adventure to find the songs that are stuck to us like audible tattoos to tell the story of who we are and where we’ve been to help us figure out where we’re going. It’s a life story told through 6 songs.

RESOURCES & LINKS

• Are you a veteran who is struggling?  Get help here:
  • Call the Veterans Crisis Line: Dial 988, then press 1.
  • Text the Veterans Crisis Line: Send your message to 838255 
  • Visit the Veterans Crisis Line website to chat virtually
  • PTSD Online Questionnaire
  • National Center for PTSD
• Reach out to us at alifeinsi

Transcript

Carolina: 0:00

A trigger warning for those listening to this latest episode. Please note that this episode contains content surrounding trauma, self-harm and PTSD. Please exercise self-care as you need.

David: 0:18

I'm out. Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of A Life in Six Songs and another season. Our sophomore album is out now. I'm joined by my co-hosts, as always, carolina and Raza.

Carolina: 1:02

Hey.

David: 1:03

Hello hosts as always, carolina and Raza, hey, hello For those of you new to the podcast. Each week we embark on an epic adventure to find the songs that are stuck to us like audible tattoos, that tell the story of who we are and where we've been, to help us figure out where we're going. It's a life story told through six songs. We approach our conversations with love, kindness and curiosity to counter the prevalence of hate, anger and judgment in the world. Our goal is that, by you all listening to these stories, you can bring more love, kindness and curiosity into your own lives. Let's go have a listen together.

Carolina: 1:37

All right. Well, today's a little bit different in that it's somewhat of a special episode. Normally, as the title of the podcast dictates, it's a life in six songs, but this episode is a little different. This one will be highlighting a specific experience through music. Today's special episode will focus around our founder and host, david Reese's recent experience in traveling to Mexico for PTSD treatment, primarily through the experience of a psychedelic called Ibogaine. I think David has discussed it in the past in previous episodes his PTSD diagnosis and kind of moving through that journey.

Carolina: 2:22

For those of you who aren't familiar, david was diagnosed with PTSD post his military service in 2021. After that diagnosis, we embarked on what's been almost three years of all kinds of different treatments medications, tools, therapies which gratefully helped move the needle and move him further along, but not quite enough to where I think David felt, you know good and healed. So I began to start looking for alternative treatments, stumbled onto a veteran community that was really advocating for psychedelics and through that, found a treatment clinic in Cancun, mexico, called Beyond. This specific clinic uses the psychedelic ibogaine to treat people struggling with depression, anxiety, ptsd and also substance abuse. So today we'll be discussing the six songs that you, david, were listening to during your trip and during your treatment. Before we continue, though, I want to make sure to give a bit of a disclaimer. We want to make sure to note that none of what we share today neither us or David is considered medical advice, and everyone struggling with any of these diagnoses needs to do their own research and due diligence before embarking on a treatment journey.

David: 3:46

We are not doctors. None of this is medical advice. This is my experience.

Carolina: 3:52

Exactly so. To kick us off, david, briefly, what role did music play during your time away at Beyond and, through the Ibogaine experience, your time?

David: 4:04

away at Beyond and through the Ibogaine experience. Yeah, so, you know, for anyone who's watched any of the first season of the podcast, right, you know music is a huge part of my life. That's why I started a music themed podcast, and so I always knew music was, you know, huge for me. But doing this, you know, kind of adventure, right, going down to another country to have this treatment, um, I really learned how important music is to me and my overall wellbeing. It is music is my, whatever you want to call it, my binky, my stuffed animal. It is the thing that to call it my binky, my stuffed animal, it is the thing that when I get anxious or nervous, music is the thing that can bring me back to myself and bring me back down.

David: 4:54

And so it's really fitting that I get to tell this story in this format, because I'm telling it through six songs and the music was such a key part of my time there, like it helped me get through it, especially because, as we'll get in when we talk more about my experience down there, you're you're kind of, you know, cut off from things, right, you're down there, um, you don't necessarily have TV or I didn't want to watch the TV that maybe was in our room and for a few days around your treatment you know you have a digital detox right, so they, you know. And for a few days around your treatment you know you have a digital detox right so they, you know, will collect your stuff, lock it up. Everything is all safe. We'll talk more about that coming up too, so you can really focus on the treatment, because so often we hide from these emotions and feelings with distractions and right. So you get those distractions taken away, but what I was still left with was music, and so it was a huge part of the journey.

Carolina: 5:46

I love that you set it up in this way where you talk about how music just has this profound like psychological experience for you. It helps kind of kick us off. Kick off our first question here Before we get into like the actual treatment. Can you give us a sense of where you were at just before you went to Mexico and what song do you associate with that time?

David: 6:10

Yeah, so a song I was listening to a lot in the weeks before I left was by the band Currents, a metalcore band, and the song is Kill the Ache.

Carolina: 6:24

All right, let's have a listen. I remember you talking to me about this song quite a bit when you sort of discovered it. You would kind of go upstairs and like disappear into some music for a bit. Why this song?

David: 7:12

yeah, it was it. You know one I I liked the band currents a lot, so I was listening to them a lot and stumbled on this song. And you know I I know we talked in our first season when we were going through our stuff. Raza and I talked about how a lot of times I in the past haven't paid as much attention to lyrics. I was much more focused on music and I think in a lot of ways it was because of the anxiety, depression and PTSD. I just sort of like focused in on the music and didn't really want to listen to the lyrics as much, in ways almost like a protective way.

David: 7:46

And this was one that just hit and like one of those songs where every line is just perfect for me and my experience right. Especially, there's a part in the song where the singer is sort of talking to somebody else and he says if I let you stay, you're going to ruin everything. I don't know what their intention was behind that, but the way when I heard it, how I took it was this other person was my PTSD, and so in this way of like you got to go, because if I let you stay you're going to ruin everything. Right, and it just hits like so perfectly. And then there's the next line with that is um, you're making me hate a world that's so good to me, right, in the sense of like the anxiety, depression and PTSD wasn't because of the life I had. You know, I love my life in that sense of like I got, you know, great partner, great kid, great friend, you know, like all these things are good and so, but like I couldn't enjoy it. And so this song just kind of hits in that way of just so perfect, and like it says the name of the song, you know, the last line I live to kill the egg.

David: 8:58

Right, that's how it felt for so long that I was. Just, my existence was just to fight through this right it, it. You know people that knew me during this time. I was me, but it took so much effort to fight through all of the, the mental, you know, uh, uh, pain, um, to let me come out, and so it was just like perfect, in that way of just, you know, I live to kill the ache. That's very much how it felt. Perfect, in that way of just, you know, I live to kill the ache, that's very much how it felt. Um, the. You know, I think this is just a great song that captures, you know, depression and or anxiety and things like that. That it's like it just feels like that's.

Raza: 9:34

That's your whole job is just, you're living to kill the ache for another day hey, dave, was this song, was this playing before you decided to go down the path of the experience and something sort of? Did this song sort of initiate that sort of self-reflection and wanted to find a solution? Or was this, yeah, like, was it completely random and this song started you down a specific path? Or was this?

David: 10:02

yeah I think it was yeah, I think it was more of the second. It wasn't like we had found the treatment center in cancun and then, once we signed up, I found this song. It was more the other way. The song came first, but it was kind of right in sequence with it. I would say like they very much kind of lined up.

David: 10:22

Once I kind of had this song and I kind of really connected to it. It enabled me to kind of like talk a little bit clearer about what I was feeling. In ways, it just kind of captured it so much and so, yeah, it was kind of like and like Carolina said, it was my comfort song for so long. You know, like we say, like you know, a lot of people, especially with, like metal music, right, it's like, why do you want to listen to that? It's all yelly and screaming. It's like, well, this is why. Because that's what I felt like inside. So here's someone that gets me Right, so I can listen to it and go yes, that is exactly how I feel and I feel like I got this buddy, you know, with me.

David: 10:58

And so, yeah, once I found the song, or like once I you know, cause, like I said, I've been listening to the currents, um, for a couple of years, um, but you know, I I came across this song and was I just happened to start paying attention more to lyrics, I think, cause we were doing this podcast, right, we had done the first episode and people were talking about lyrics, so I started to pay a little bit more attention to the mute, to the lyrics of the music I was listening to. And, yeah, when I, when I heard this, I was just like, oh, that's, that's, that's perfect, and so, yeah, it was my comfort, like Carolina said, I would listen to it, like on repeat numerous times and that would kind of okay, I'm not alone.

Raza: 11:46

It almost sounds to me like the culmination of all of season one. And while you were processing that and processing everyone else's sort of, while you were processing how all of our interviewees processed their relationship with music, you know, like a band like this, like currents, that's something that you've already been paying attention to and was on your radar. All of a sudden, boom, something happens and, by some osmosis, yeah, um, a song that you may have already heard just hits differently. Now, all of a sudden, boom, something happens and, by some osmosis, yeah, um, a song that you may have already heard just hits differently. Now, all of a sudden, and it sort of starts you down the path, yeah, absolutely.

David: 12:13

And I would say like, um, you know, people, through all of my treatments right for the years, every time I would go to a new group or a new individual therapy or something like that, everyone was always telling me how, like, how much courage it took to come Right. And you know it take a lot of courage. And so, you know, and I could never feel that Right, it just didn't feel like I felt terrible. I was just, I was sort of giving up in a sense. I'm just like, whatever's next, fine, I'll go and just fine, let's do it Right. Um, and I, I see now you know, kind of being on the other side of all of this treatment, um, that you know it did take a lot of courage every time.

David: 12:54

Right, it took courage to, you know, reach out to you, raza, in the beginning of all this and say, hey, I got this diagnosis and you had experience working with vets on, you know, disability claims and things and you helped me talk me through that. And then starting this podcast, right, that took courage. I had the idea, but it was like, no again, it was always me there. I just had to fight through so much muck and stuff to get out there, but I was able to do enough to do these things. That kept inspiring me to keep fighting Right. I think once we did got this podcast and we started to talk to people and I was like this is amazing, this is what I love doing, this is so great, I want to get better Right, and that that very much kept me going. So, yeah, absolutely.

Carolina: 13:38

Roz, I really like how you sort of tied it in with like processing of stories and storytelling and through music, because I really think I don't know, david, correct me if I'm like wrong but I really think music helps you process things and I I say that to put it in somewhat of a timeline context here David was still undergoing lots of different therapies and meds and things, but, like we said, it wasn't working enough and this treatment to us felt like a Hail Mary, like if this doesn't work, I don't know what else we have left right. So that's big to process and getting yourself ready to go do something in another country that feels scary, away from your family, away from your kid, away from your you know your life. I don't know, david, did this song help get you ready, like process, to sort of let that PTSD finally go?

David: 14:36

Yeah, no, I think that's a good way to kind of summarize what I was trying to say before. I think in that way of like all of these things beforehand were steps towards it. Right, it wasn't like there was everything before and then I went down to Mexico and did this treatment and like everything changed. It was a process beforehand and as I was going through all of the treatments over these years, like we said, it would move the needle a little bit after I'd finished some 12-week group on you know whatever it was, managing emotions or something like that. You know, uh, I feel a little bit better. I'm like okay, okay, but then, real quick, it would just kind of come right back and I would get so angry and frustrated and be like no one's able to help. None of this is working now.

David: 15:18

Being on the other side and having gone down to Mexico in this hell Hail Mary attempt, um, gone down to Mexico in this Hail Mary attempt, I realized how all of those things I did were all steps that helped me be as prepared and ready for this Hail Mary to be as successful as it was Right. So I think if I could talk to anyone out there who is at some point in where I was in my journey. If you just started to get help or you just started to contact the VA and your first thing and you're frustrated, as all hell, just keep going. Keep saying yes At the end of something. If they're like what do you want to do next? We have this other group for this. Just say yes, keep going, because all of it is building towards healing. It might not feel like it in the moment, but it is, and I wasn't able to see it during. But now, being more healed, I'm able to look back and realize that. So just keep going.

Carolina: 16:14

All right. So you've kept going. You decide to go right, we decide to embark on this journey. Tell us about heading to Cancun, tell us about arriving at Beyond, at the clinic. I know you and you fly and you always have headphones on, so what song did you associate with that experience of just going?

David: 16:39

Yeah, so I was listening to pretty much most of the time in my travels down, predominantly less than Jake. They're a ska punk band from Gainesville, Florida. They were there when I was a student there. I know my band's never played with them, I don't think I can't remember, but we're definitely playing the same places a lot and you know, definitely awesome and it was from their album In With the Out Crowd. Really the whole album spoke to me, but specifically this song, Hopeless Case.

Carolina: 17:12

Let's take a listen.

David: 17:14

Truth is that I'm self-destructive, I'm insecure, I'm out of focus. The truth is that I've had enough, but you still have me. You, you don't see me that way. You hear the words that I say. You just tell me my heart's in the right place.

Carolina: 17:50

It's the world that's confused. What about this song helped you as you were embarking on this journey?

David: 18:02

Yeah, I know I said it about the current song that it's like every word sort of feels perfect. I think this one is even more so and the perfect song for on the travel down there. Right, I've left you guys. I'm on this flight. It's the Hail Mary going to another country and, like I talked about, you know, with the previous song, there had been so many steps along the way of trying to get help and there was so many people involved in that right. You, carolina, of course, like the greatest support ever, raza, you as well. So many people along in my journey Linnea, georgetown, corey, marsha, terry so many people that you've got the list in front of you, carolina that I missed someone that's on the list. I'm having a little trouble thinking clearly right now.

Carolina: 18:55

No, you have just, you have everyone.

David: 18:57

All of all of like when I was just so deep in it all. It was so tough to see that. And I just love this song Cause you know the it's sung from this perspective of you know I'm going through all of this, I'm a hopeless case, but you never saw me that way, you know, and that's just like how it felt from everybody, and so it's just like you know, perfect. And so it was just like I from everybody, and so it's just like you know, perfect. And so it was just like I was making. I felt like I was making that transition again, raza, like you talked about, like the podcast first season, like all these steps started to kind of bring me up and kind of you know the, the flying down there and and getting to this point where it's like, okay, I think we're going to something that's really going to help. Um, it just made me like be able to see everybody that was always there for me, you know, cheering me on and and helping, no matter how bad I was.

Raza: 19:50

So, yeah, I think one of the things that we, that we sort of wanted to let our audience and our guests know, was that you know we're going on this journey, but this really, I mean you're sort of this is your, this, this podcast is your baby, this is your idea, this is your, and it comes, and it comes from a really simple premise of you know you like talking to other people about music. It's as simple as that, right, um. So so I think when I in, in, in, in, speaking about the last song and then transitioning into this, it really was that simple um, to see your journey with, with, with season one, and how you look at music and things, and, and, and even now, in this really really sort of critical and significant moment, I mean music is the sort of anchor that's tying you down, that's the, that's the bookmark that you're using. So it is. It is really cool to see that.

David: 20:49

Yeah and absolutely and and and, like I said, I've been a less than Jake fan ever since I was in college in Gainesville and seeing them, you know, it was like I was like this band is fun, it's awesome. Their lyric their songs are, you know, they have their silly songs, but they also have these kind of deep songs. They really capture that experience of, like you know, college age coming of adulthood angst and confusion and what am I doing? And I'm told to do this, but it doesn't feel right and these types of things. And this was another case of, like the song helping me to realize something.

David: 21:24

Right, because I kind of threw the Less Than Jake on, not because I'm like this song is going to or this album is going to help me process stuff. It was just like I like Less Than Jake, right? So all of this, like a lot of these songs were kind of by chance that they kind of came up right in this, in this journey over the 10 days or more that I was, you know, gone and traveling there, and I remember, just I remember being on the plane and playing this album and this song came on and it just like hit me of, just like, oh, my goodness, yes, that is exactly how I felt. I have felt like this hopeless case, yet all the people around me never treated me that way, and so it just helped me see that. And so, yeah, the music very much came in and sort of was like we're going to help you figure this out, right, we're going to make some sense of this for you.

Carolina: 22:14

And so you know you're feeling this way as you arrive, right, you get picked up from the airport, you get taken to the clinic and you're feeling kind of like a hopeless case here as you arrive. What was that a little bit like, and did they? How did they take care of you and kind of put you at ease? It's scary yeah.

David: 22:31

Very scary, very scary. I don't know.

Carolina: 22:33

Like we are not a family who was into psychedelics before had ever done anything like that, so this was a leap of faith, right?

David: 22:42

Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, and it you know. Yeah, you kind of have those thoughts in your head of like, am I really doing this, like and it's. You know we'll get into this a little bit in the next songs when we talk about the actual treatment and the medicine itself and that experience. But you know, it's not like a little bit. We're not talking micro dosing here. This is like they call it, the heroic dose. It's like there's, you know, the micro dosing, there's recreational dosing of psychedelics. Then it's over here what we're doing, right, so it's intense. This is a big deal and this song set me up so well to arrive, because it just continued that I was able to see all the support people had given me along the way. And then you arrive there and the staff at Beyond couldn't have been better at making you feel welcome, safe. You could trust the whole place and everybody there. The second you walk in the door right, they have a car that picks you up from the airport. You don't have to worry about getting there, they've got it all scheduled and stuff. You walk through the door and it's this converted like house, right, think of, you know, if you're from South Florida or something like that, you know concrete house, you know pretty big pool in the back and stuff. You go through the front door and you're in the living room. They got all furniture around and all that and they take you down and they sit you down on the couch right there, a nurse and another nurse and they start doing your intake, right, because you're there, and so they got to get you checked in, make sure all the stuff, make sure everything you submitted is great. And it just felt so great because it wasn't like you walked in and they brought you to like a hospital room to do this right, you were doing it in this living room of this home. That felt just like a home, um, and they even have that. They had TVs around that would like have different information on there of activities of the day or whatever. But there'd also be like little sayings of theirs and, uh, one of them was something like that of like you know, don't worry, your home now, or something like that, and it's totally how it felt. Don't worry, you're home now, or something like that, and it's totally how it felt.

David: 24:49

There's people that go down there for drug addictions, opioids and others, and so we knew this beforehand. But they said we're going to go through your stuff because they have to, because there's people trying to detox and they can't have people walking around with drugs and stuff and that could derail everybody. And I was doing an intake room with the doctor and the doctor was asking me questions and the nurse was there, had my stuff on the table, going through it all super kind, super gentle with everything, super thorough, and, oh my goodness, talk about a difference between my military experience, because when they went through our stuff there they just dumped it and it was like the most you know, you know, kind of humiliating thing really. Um, and then when they were done checking everything, nurse folded everything all back up, all my clothes and everything and put it back in my suitcase and stuff. So everything like they have to do this.

David: 25:38

Right, they've got to go through your stuff Cause they got to make sure there's no drugs or anything else that could be hazardous to you or anybody else going through treatment. But they could not have done it in a more kind way and so, yeah, just the second I got there I felt so at home, so trusting of everyone there. Everyone was kind and welcoming. It's a medical experience I've never experienced before anywhere else.

Carolina: 26:07

And I'll say that that was important to me. Like I mentioned, we are not familiar with psychedelics. My only frame of reference is like ayahuasca, in the middle of the desert with like a shaman, and I was not cool with sending him to the middle of nowhere with some person. So, as we vetted this clinic, the fact that there were doctors and nurses on staff 24 7, that he had an ekg while he was doing it, that he like that he was like fully monitored by mds, just put me at ease because, as the family of somebody who's going through this, when you don't, you don't hear from them for six or seven days is rough. So to know he was in good hands, this was huge for for me, since we're doing this collectively.

Raza: 26:56

Carolina, can I can? You maybe elaborate a little more about that. You know how, how was it for you and and and and and your household, you know I mean.

Carolina: 27:07

At first. Like you know, I was able to talk to him the first couple of days. He was there before his treatment dose and so I felt pretty cool about that. But then I knew at some point they were going to take his electronics and he wasn't going to, he was going to be out of contact and the clinic did do an amazing job of keeping me posted that during the treatment, which is about 12 hours, they let me know when he started, they let me know when he was halfway through and they let me know when he was done, said he was stable, he was, you know, in good health, everything went well, great.

Carolina: 27:35

And then it was like radio silence for like seven days and I have my own anxiety. Um, and I'm a person who likes information Like that makes me feel safe, and so to not hear anything from him for those seven days I'm not going to lie the kid and I were like a wreck. Like every morning I would wake up and Bella would be like anything and I was like nothing and I knew he was in good hands, like I knew he was safe, but like we all have a lot at stake in his recovery and he's like the most important person in my life. So like I just want to know he was okay. You know which I knew physically he was.

Carolina: 28:13

But like, did it work? How are you feeling? Are you happy? Are you sad? Are you like what, who send their loved ones for treatment and don't hear from them for a while? Like it's a lot. Um, further reinforced my idea that, like, had I known him when he was in the military and he was just like gone on deployment for months, I would have not handled that Well. I did not handle this well at all. There were a lot of tears. I was kind of a wreck.

David: 28:41

Yeah, and, and just you know, full disclosure. Um, you know they had your. Your digital detox is basically the day before your treatment, the day of the treatment dose and the day after Um, and they on that like end of that third day, or it might've been the next morning, which will you know. We'll get into how the treatment structure was in these next songs they had. They came up to me. A nurse came up to me and said hey, your digital detox is over, do you want your stuff back?

David: 29:11

And I was in the middle of treatment and I can tell you, for anyone who's hesitant about it, in the sense of like I don't want people to take my electronics, it is. It is essential to have that digital detox to do the work that you're you're doing. And there was still so much more work that I was doing that I was like like I wanted to talk to carolina and bella more than anything in the world. But the thought of getting my phone back and like you can't just kind of open your phone and just kind of like go right to you know, all notifications would be there for three days, news right, I was just I think if I open that phone, I'm going to like derail all the progress I made, and so the the extended uh, non-contact was was more on my side.

David: 29:56

Um, so anyone who's thinking of going, I would, I would encourage you all with friends and family, anyone that cares about you, while you're down there, kind of talk through a little bit of the plan of what you think you might want to do, because I think I could have probably grabbed the phone and just real easily tried to get in my text and say, hey, I'm good, I'm just I'm giving my phone back because that's what's needed to do this and stuff. So yeah, but it was crucial. The digital detox is a crucial part of it. You know you're trying to break. What you're basically doing is breaking deep, deep subconscious habits really of the way you're thinking and all these kinds of things that you know is is what anxiety, depression, ptsd is, and you've got to kind of cut off from all of that.

Raza: 30:44

Yeah, I read somewhere very recently just to that digital detox point. It's our brains aren't designed, weren't meant, to process the amount of information that we have access to. I think someone said something along the lines of you know, it's an organ that, up until the last, maybe few hundred years ago, was basically designed to gather food and use your you know your five senses.

David: 31:16

Right and worry about the 40 or 50 people in your little community.

Raza: 31:20

Right, yeah, yeah exactly, and now, in the palm of of our hands, we have all the information that was ever made available, at any time in any place exactly. We're just not we. So this, um, I totally get it when you say you know the digital detox is, is is a big part of just erasing bad habits and and sort of starting fresh.

David: 31:43

Yeah, and I and I would encourage people, anybody who's on their own treatment journey if you're, you know you're, you're maybe not at the point where you're booking your ticket to Mexico, but you're, you're, you're doing treatment, you're doing talk therapy or something like that I would encourage you to do whatever digital detox you might be able to kind of get off social media or kind of stop following some of the things, like you know.

David: 32:05

And it was tough because for me, um, in in these years before going, when I was kind of at my worst and, you know, depressed and everything like that, and I could barely get off the couch on certain days, I would be like, well, the least I can do is stay informed. So I would just have the news on all day, right, and and. But it cause it felt like I was at least doing something. Right, I can't be, maybe, out there making a difference or, you know, teaching or whatever, because of what I was going through, but I can at least be informed. And I think that really just did not help me at all, right, cause I was just refilling of like, yeah, there's all kinds of stuff to be anxious about and the world is a constant threat, right is. You know how I felt.

Carolina: 32:44

So, yeah, digital detox highly recommend well and I think for me, I got really used to being able to reach him whenever I needed and when he was at his worst yeah, I'm just right there on the couch. You knew exactly where I was well, yes, but at your worst, when you were having, like persistent suicidal ideations and I needed to leave the house. Being able to reach him meant I knew he was alive and that he was safe.

Carolina: 33:15

And that he hadn't done something catastrophic that he couldn't take back Right, and there were times where I couldn't reach you, that I was in a full blown panic, like that's it, it's over. I need to send police for a wellness check, like it was. It was that hard. So then to give me like six or seven days where I couldn't reach him at all, I was like right, Lose my mind.

David: 33:38

And again, because not because you didn't think I was physically safe you knew the place, you knew I was good, You're, you're're, you're, you're, you're, contained in this building, you're safe, you're fed, there's wonderful staff. But you get so used to doing that when you can, it feels off. And yeah, just to kind of say that too of like, um, kind of the full disclosure thing, because part of this is also, you know, telling the story is about doing this treatment, but it's also about, um, you know, um, keeping these, these feelings and and and thoughts and depression and everything like that, not keeping them hidden, um, and and I, I think I did a good, uh, well, not a good job, but I, I definitely kept some stuff hidden.

David: 34:17

I downplayed a lot because I knew it was scary, um, and I, I think I was downplaying it to myself at times too, but there were definite days where, when I was at my lowest, where the predominant thought in my head all day was wanting to take my life, having this vision of getting a gun, and, you know, doing it like are you having any suicidal thoughts? And I was like no, because I wasn't like thinking about it to plan it and do it Right, but I was sort of like for lack of a better word fantasizing about it. Right, and it's and now I understand more that suicidal ideation, what it means You're, you're, basically, you're in such pain that the thought of going on day after day like this is so much that your brain you start just envisioning ending it, because it keeps you going, like you know, like well, I could always stop this, right. And so if, again, if you are someone out there who's listening to this and you're having any of those types of thoughts, even if it's just a little vision of a dream or like kind of thing of like you just imagine, yeah, I could get a gun and put it, you know, to my head. You know that's suicidal ideation, okay, and you know, please go talk to somebody. There's plenty of people out there that can help and it does get better.

David: 35:37

I didn't believe it a few years ago, but you stick with it, it can get better.

Raza: 35:42

You stick with it, it can get better. Would you be okay sharing when, or up until when those types of ideations were? You were having those types of thoughts.

David: 35:54

Up until my treatment at Beyond.

David: 35:56

Oh wow, yeah, I mean much less, so so this wasn't something that like while you were deployed or right after you were discharged, oh yeah, no, they actually the those kinds of thoughts in here and and that's a really good question too, because it gets it something else uh, that that we see, um, you know veterans specifically with this, but you know anyone who's experiencing it. You know, um, you start to you, you, you gaslight yourself in the sense of you, you, you doubt what you're feeling and you're like, well, no, I shouldn't feel this way because this didn't happen to me. I had this saying that we define trauma as anything worse than what happened to me, right? So whatever happened to me is not trauma, it's whatever is more than that, because we can always imagine someone worse off or having a worse experience. And as veterans, this is like just on steroids, right, this idea, because it's always about like, don't complain, you suck it up, and all these types of things. And so it's always that thing of like, no, no, no, no, no, no, you got to put on the good face and drive on and suck it up and stuff like that.

David: 37:00

And so I doubted myself for a long time. I was like I can't have PTSD, but then I was like I mean, I was in combat, we were shot at, people lost, you know, people on the other side. We took people's lives and and you know all of those things and so, but it's not even just about that, because a lot of it was from just the culture and stuff I saw. I mean, I saw what I took to be abuse of people. Right, that I thought was not good leadership but just straight up abuse, um, and so it's all of that together and so one, it didn't start right after. You know, um, uh, the way I, um, you know, trauma and PTSD works by additive right, it's sort of you have these experiences that put your body into this. You know trauma state or you know, shock the body in some way. You don't automatically go right into it, right, you can, but it's as you keep trying to go through life, like go back to what I was saying in the beginning of it was always me there, but I'd have to like fight to get through all of this, but I'd have to like fight to get through all of this. It's that process over time that wears you down to the point where you're just your body's just out of energy and it can't keep doing that.

David: 38:11

So, um, I would say the suicidal ideation you know kind of started maybe, you know, five or six years ago probably, as I got into grad school, not so much during my master's degree, but when I graduated from my master's at Oregon and went to, we moved to the DC area to start my PhD at Georgetown. I think that's where things really started to kind of go down for me, and I think partly too is I started to make my research veterans issues, and so I think in a way, it kind of brought all that stuff back up and I was talking about it all and giving talks to, you know, lectures to groups and and, and being this sort of person who's talking about veteran trauma and you know, veteran issues and all these types of things and military training and how it contributes to this and things, but I wasn't dealing with it in any type of like mental health way, and so I think that whole process of of talking about it um kind of rebrought it up and kept it fresh in my, my, my body in a sense. Um, because that was like the, a breaking point, right. I was in my third, third year of my PhD, um, and I was just every semester was getting worse than the next. I was writing just horrible papers, just just putting down words to turn something in. Um, you know, I was on probation for that last semester, like, if I you know, I don't turn things around, you know, this is you're not gonna be able to stick around.

David: 39:34

Um, and I was just every every semester I was like, all right, I just need to put my head down and work even harder to do it, which was just reinforcing all of the issues and making the issues worse. Right, because I was also doing all the negative talk of like God, you've got to suck it up, Come on, make it happen. And so I ended up leaving the PhD. I remember Carolina and I were in the car and she had picked me up from the train in Arlington and driving me back home and we were in the driveway of there and I was just in a terrible spot and Carolina just said you don't have to keep doing this and I just broke down and I said, yeah, I can't keep doing this. And so that was the first breakdown.

David: 40:15

And so I think that's what really kind of the intensity of the PhD, but specifically also the research I was doing and everything, and the time that kept going by of having to just keep trying to struggle through it all, um, just finally kind of caught up with me. So the the the thing I would say for everyone listening is you know PTSD, whether it's military related, or you know childhood trauma or anything, um, it's not something that shows up necessarily right away. It's something that over time, kind of keeps getting worse and you can't seem to really get better. And this is why you see a lot of veterans finally present or get treatment or, you know, have to get help, and it's, you know, 15 years after their service, right, or something like that, because it's all that added time. But yeah, go back to the question.

David: 41:08

The suicidal ideation was definitely stayed up until I went to beyond. It started to get a little bit less, like we said, with everything, with the podcast going and these other things, I started to kind of, you know, felt like I was like coming up above water a little bit and I'm like, okay, okay, I can get there, and so it would wane a little bit, but always still there. And that was kind of the scary, one of the scariest things. They always asked me in any therapy when I would bring it up and they're like there's this big distinction. It's like, okay, is it just ideation or are you actually making plans? And I was always like, no, I'm not making any plans, I don't have the intention, I don't want to do it.

Raza: 41:44

In my rational mind, talking to you right now, no, I don't want to do this, but yes, it is some days the dominant thought in my head yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm here with you, you know, listening to this and and obviously I've, you know, I've, I've known you personally in the last couple of years since we reconnected, and things like that and and it's, it's.

David: 42:05

Yeah, I think I'm gonna need some therapy after it's true, and and um, but, and I think um kind of going off that point. One thing I will say is, like you know, I I call it the Robin Williams scenario.

Raza: 42:19

I was thinking about him as you were explaining the last segment.

David: 42:22

Because I bet most people that know me would think I was the last person that was having these issues and these thoughts. But it's there.

Raza: 42:35

Well, I know you better than I know Robinin williams, because robin williams, I don't know at all.

Raza: 42:40

Right, of course but but I I'd be lying if I, if I, if I, if I said that I didn't think about how david the, my friend david, who I've known since high school, right, how like I've I'd be lying if I if I said that I didn't think about how you were doing while you were doing, for example, the podcast. I think the podcast is probably the most consistent amount of time that we've worked on a project together, right, and it was a heavy it. It is a heavy project. It's not. It's not something that I've I I don't take it lightly in the sense that I think, as a project, I want to do a good job and I take it seriously. But I think the subject matter can certainly get to be a lot for someone who himself, who themselves, are going through a lot of the things that our guests are talking about.

Raza: 43:39

Yeah, right, like we've had veterans on this show, we've had, uh, we've had, we've had all manner of like we always we try to go for a diverse crowd, but but we are back and watch season one everybody but but one of our sort of um, not mantras, but one of our sort of not mantras, but one of our sort of recurring themes is veterans support and mental health support, and talking about those types of issues again under the context of music. But taking a step back, yeah, I'd be lying if I said that I didn't think about. You know, like two, three, four interviews into it. Well, you know how is my boy doing. You know how I remember.

David: 44:20

Yeah, you both, both of you would do it. You would be always checking on me. I'd be like, all right, yeah, I'm going to get this episode edited and up tomorrow and I've got some clips going, and you were always both like, yeah, it's cool If it. If it takes a little bit longer, it's okay, there's no rush. You know, you, you you both were always looking out for me and you weren't wrong in that because, like I said, um, I could be me, but it just took so much damn energy that after we would record an episode, like in season one, I was pretty much done for the rest of the day, like I was sleeping on the couch. I was done Like that's it, that's all I had for that. And so, yeah, you're I mean, you were, you were correct to be concerned, but it was always so great and I appreciate both of you for this one, for being part of this, because I was telling Carolina right before we were getting ready to set up here and record this one. I'm like, I'm so glad I didn't try and do this podcast by myself One. It's just so much more fun with co-hosts and stuff like that, but I definitely needed the support. I don't think I would have been able to do it without you all, raza. You help and find guests and stuff right.

David: 45:24

Reaching out to people was a very difficult thing for me to do. At my worst I couldn't even answer my phone at my job, right, I'd have to let it go to voicemail and then so I could know exactly what the person was calling for, because the unknown was just, you know, a threat. And so I just appreciate you both so much for that. And, you know, getting this podcast off the ground because it has been so great. Like you said, you know we're trying to talk about these stories. We're not, it's not therapy, we're not just like tell us about your trauma, but we're talking about people's life stories through song, and so people are bringing up difficult, challenging times, and that was kind of the whole goal of like, all right, this can be, like, you know, the first step for people kind of sharing these types of stories and realizing like talking about things is good even if it's scary. Yeah.

Raza: 46:14

But I guess I would just say that, if you know, if, if at any point it stops being good, you know it's okay to call timeout, right, of course, um, and, and that goes for anything that anyone else might be going through Um, like, don't, please, don't keep doing shit. That's going to hurt you. That's not the point.

David: 46:33

Yeah, and that that that's a good way to describe it too, because where a lot of the pain comes from is trying to continue on in the world as if everything's okay. Right, we talk about kind of putting the mask on. Right, you got to put that mask on to get through whatever you need to do. So you make it through whatever you have to do, whether it's parenting, work, friend, you know, just whatever driving on the road, right, I don't want to like flip out and, you know, run someone off the road, right. So you got to be like, okay, I got to pull it together to be able to get through these things and, yeah, that wears on you.

Carolina: 47:09

So and I'll say people who are going through this sometimes are really good at like putting on the brave face. You know they have like their moments and the people closest to them see, you know, the day after day, but even then like it can be really hard to know how bad something might be. You know, I live with David every single day. We both work from home. Like we were together every day and I wasn't aware of how bad it had gotten Right. So we went to the VA and they asked you know, have you had suicidal ideations? And he was like yes, which I knew. But then they were like how frequently? And then he says every day. And I was like wait a minute every day. Like that floored me, cause I thought it was a once in a while, maybe on a really bad day. I didn't realize this was something persistent, every single day.

Raza: 48:03

That kind of goes to the question that I was asking ahead of this. That kind of led to this discussion, which is I was trying to, from my frame of mind, figure out. Okay, I've known this dude when I was 16. I remember seeing him at UF in his 20s and then we got back in touch in our 30s and 40s. We were in our 40s now and we've been on this podcast journey. So I was trying to, in my mind, make a chronology of OK, I know when you were deployed, I know where you are now, when was the last time? And yeah, carolina, like you just said, every day up until this treatment. And yeah, carolina, like you just said, you know, every day up until this treatment. And I'm my jaw was on the floor as well thinking wow, we were doing all that podcast stuff and you're probably processing other people's stuff and then having these ideations and thoughts yourself and I'm just what are we doing here, you know? So, yeah, right, yeah, and that can feel really hard.

Carolina: 48:58

I've had conversations with this with other friends who are caregivers to spouses. It can feel really hard, the like long term midness of this, like people might know, but then like months go by and they're like, how are they doing? And you're like same, and they're like same still you know, or, but your spouse or whatever wasn't ever in combat. They had a non-combat role in the military, like what you know. Or but your spouse or whatever wasn't ever in combat. They had a non-combat role in the military, like what you know. Just all of this sort of like misconceived notions about what trauma looks like or how it plays out or how persistent it is in your everyday life. There's a lot of people don't know because they don't talk about it.

David: 49:33

Exactly. Yeah, it's that saying I love it's. You know, you see it on t-shirts or whatever, and it says be kind to everyone you meet. They're probably you know, they're probably fighting something and they just don't have the energy to kind of keep it together anymore and that's how it kind of showed up. So be kind.

Carolina: 50:08

All right, let's. Let's get to the good stuff, let's get to the meat of it to the meat of it all, which is your main dosage of ibogaine. It's a, like I mentioned, a 12 hour, somewhat, um, medically supervised experience that they call your flood dose, because it's the highest dosage of the drug that you will get during your stay. Um, what? Without just saying like, what was that like? But what? What do you think to music?

Carolina: 50:38

Because I think you process things through music. What song do you associate with your flood dose during your Ibogaine experience?

David: 50:46

Yeah, so this song, it was a band I knew about but really connected with. While I was gone I had my phone for a little bit so I was able to do that, but I also had a TV in my room and they had like all of the stuff Netflix and YouTube and stuff. So I was just kind of watching YouTube and pulling up music and different things and I came across this and it just floored me. I watched it probably like 10 times a night. I would just watch it on repeat, um, and so this was, if I had to pick one song for, like, my time there, this would be it, because it was just throughout so much, and it is Ginger Pisces.

Carolina: 51:27

Let's take a listen. Raza's like what. Let's take a listen.

Raza: 51:34

I drew a different reality With unconditional loyalty. Ego hardly can be picked Because I'm selfless Still above the lakes.

David: 52:13

Virgin innocence. One being brings life Without a refidget.

Carolina: 52:26

Well, you two are rocking out listening to it. If you are watching this podcast episode on YouTube, you obviously probably see a clip of the video which you can see the singer. If you are solely listening to this podcast, you should know that the singer both the traditional singing and the screaming is the same person.

David: 52:50

It's this woman doing both parts which melts my brain every time.

David: 52:56

This video um, it's not just the music video for the song. The song originally came out on like a 2016 album or something like that. They re-recorded this, so this is live recording. They've added, you know, added some other stuff afterwards and post-production or whatever, but this is like they redid it in 2019. And this version is just like amazing. It's got something like 90 million views on youtube because it's just like it's there's a joke on there. It says, like this is the.

David: 53:24

This is the video all metalheads are showing their non-metalhead friends to be like, check this out, you gotta see this. Um. So, yeah, um. Where to start their backstory? Right, I mean, I know, like and this is how I kind of found out about them, because they're ukrainian, um and um. So they've been around for, you know, since like 2009, I think, or something like that, like most bands, right, they're toiling in in, you know, the, the empty clubs and stuff until they get noticed. So they've been bigger for a while, but when the russian invasion kicked off, they started popping. So they've been bigger for a while, but when the Russian invasion kicked off, they started popping up because they were talking about it Cause they're from the Eastern part of Ukraine, so the part that's like invaded and things and so, um, yeah, I don't know if there's. You got more to?

Raza: 54:08

yeah, that was it. Um, uh, I I heard about them from some other friends and, yeah, I'm just going to put it out into the universe. I mean, I would love. I think her name is Tatiana Shmila.

David: 54:24

Yeah, Tatiana and the bass player is Eugene. They're the ones that I've seen do most of the interviews. Yeah, yes, if you want to come on, we would love to have you 100%.

Raza: 54:42

We would love to hear your six song story. They've got some killer stories and stuff. Just just from the interviews that I've seen, uh, the skills I mean. Um, one of the um, eugene's one of his biggest uh influences, I remember in one of the other videos was was uh, ryan? I think it's ryan martini from, uh, from mud vein, and they've got the same sort of bass tapping style, which I love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and this song, has.

David: 55:04

Like this song has all kinds of cool time signatures in it that change, but like they're not so abrupt to where you're. Like, if you don't know about time signature whatever, like what the hell is going on? Yeah, it's just. I mean, it's just. To me it's like a masterpiece, and not just the song but this performance, and this is what specifically drew me to this video when I, when I came across it, like I said, I've been listening to ginger just through, like you know, audio, um, but when I was down there and I was just poking around youtube and watching other metal stuff and whatever reaction videos, right, this comes up in, like anyone who's ever done a reaction video to something has done it to this, because it's just, everyone's face gets melted. Carolina, like you said, it's like that's the same person, so, yeah, so I'll talk a little bit more about the song and how it was with my healing, but I'll relate it to why I chose this song, to talk about my actual treatment dose, that main dose, because she's playing these two parts in this song, right, we've got this sort of more. I don't know the technical term, I'm not a singer, but the clean vocals, right, which is beautiful and calm and melodic, and then we've got the growl and there's just demonic sound, um. And that's a perfect example for what my 12 hour main treatment was like Um. So to go into you know a little bit, set the stage and kind of tell you what that experience was like Um.

David: 56:33

So at beyond, most people do this. They call it the flood dose, cause it's like I said, it's that heroic dose, that high level dose, which gets you all these psychological benefits and addiction benefits. They normally do them during the day, so you normally start at like 7 am and then you're done by like 7 pm. They do that because logistically it's a lot easier to have the medical team and staff all there during the day, right, do that because logistically it's a lot easier to have the medical team and staff all there during the day, right. But when I was there there was just a number of us that were kind of lined up such that we're getting our flood doses those same days, because a lot of people that come in with addictions their timeline is a little bit flexible, because those first few days they have to detox and be clean to start the treatment, and so it can, you know, and so we just had a number of people lined up that were supposed to go on this this one day and there's only three treatment beds in the room to do it, so they can do maximum three at a time.

David: 57:30

And so the CEO was there you know he's very involved at the site and stuff and he talked to me and another person and asked if we would, we would be interested in doing a night treatment, right, so starting at six at night through 6am, and he, you know, talked me all through it, told me about it. He's like no pressure, you can do what you want, I'm not going to force you. But he did bring up and said you know, hey, there's, there's cool aspects to doing it at night. He said he was almost like you know, I would do a lot of them at night if I could, but just logistically we can't. And so I was like no, that's cool.

David: 58:02

And we sort of talked and heard more about my story and things and I said how so much of the trauma I experienced happened at night. Or one of my big symptoms was I was having terrible, terrible night terrors where I was waking up, you know, throwing up, and I was in full panic mode. And so, like it got to the point where I didn't even want to go to sleep because I didn't know what was going to happen, and so he and I together kind of came up with this slogan of reclaim the night. That was our, my kind of tagline. So, yeah, we're going to do the treatment at night because we're going to reclaim the night for you. And so we did a fire ceremony, because the traditional way this medicine comes from a plant in Western Africa, in Gabon, the Iboga plant, and the people there have been using it for thousands of years. And when they do their ceremonies they do it at night because they have a whole fire ceremony and then go into the treatment. So when they do them at night at Beyond, they kind of recreate that. So there's a fire ceremony and we did the thing. When they do them at night at Beyond, they kind of recreate that. So there's a fire ceremony and we did the thing.

David: 58:59

We go into the treatment room. Like I said before, this is some of the best like medical care I've gotten, in the sense of you didn't feel like just a piece of meat that they were trying to just, you know, either crack open and fix whatever was wrong or something. There's a spiritual, kind of human, emotional component too. So you go into the treatment room, you get on, you know it's a regular hospital bed with hospital monitors and stuff. Like we said. They hook you up to the EKG and everything like that. They're monitoring that all the time. It's one of the risks of the medicine. They have to monitor your EKG. They can control it with things, but you have to monitor it, um, and you get ready and then they come over and, um, they have the. The there comes in like a capsule form, the powders in like the capsule, but they bring it on this, like you know, slice of wood with a flower and it's like the lighting is real low. So it has this very kind of like a ceremonial aspect to it.

David: 59:54

Um, you take, you take the meds, water, you lay back in the bed and then you, they give you, you have headphones on and anyone who's been, you know, remotely familiar with psychedelics in any way, this has been going on for, you know, since the 60s and stuff in the US with with this of like you're, you're, what the psychedelic does is it gets you out of your rational conscious mind up here and allows you to get into that subconscious. You know part of your brain and stuff, and the way that you help that along is by cutting off some of your normal senses. So if you have headphones on, they have a playlist that they play through. It's got different kinds of kind of. You know what you would almost think of as psychedelic music, but also some traditional Gabon music in there too. You know.

David: 1:00:37

Calling back to the where this plant came from, uh, you have an eye mask that you pull down, so it just is like a blackout mask, um, and so, yeah, you lay back in the bed, you're in the hospital bed. Um, it takes about 45 minutes or so for the for the medicine to start take effect. And, um, the first thing you feel is you feel it go through your body, you feel like warm and then you start feeling it go into your bloodstream and it was wild because it felt like little worker bees kind of going through my body, like they're going around and I'm like, oh my God, they're going in there and stuff. Then the sort of psychedelic trip I guess is what you would call it is in two phases. This medicine works in two phases. The first phase they call the visualization stage which is more just where you're sort of going to see visions and things are going to come up for you and you're kind of just along for the ride. You're just going to watch. Once that, that lasts about two to three hours.

David: 1:01:31

Once that ends, you transition into the second phase, which is much more of a dialogue, where you can sort of have the visions from your subconscious but you can kind of engage with them in ways and kind of work through them. The first part I call it like kind of the dark forest I liken it to where Tatiana gets that growl part, because that's kind of the intense part where the medicine is going to go in and go to those dark places that you've been avoiding. Right, when that's really how this medicine works. Our conscious mind can only do so much, because when I used to say this in therapy I'd say I'm not lying, but I feel like I'm not getting to what's really there, because you're thinking of all these things, of what story should I tell? What's this? This kind of removes that and just gets down to what's going on underneath.

David: 1:02:21

I'll say a person who was doing it with me, my Ibogaine buddy, as we called it afterwards, his vision, a vision he had during this time was he saw this vision of kind of this like creature coming in, think of like ghost of Christmas future, you know, kind of just dark, like you know, looking like creature coming in, think of like ghost of Christmas future, you know, kind of just dark, like you know, looking like um, you know death or something like that, and he was like, oh shit, I'm like this, this person's going to harm me. This creature walks up and he's having this vision. You know um reaches into his chest and pulls out this just black blob and walks out of the room. And so is this kind of of like. What this first phase is like is the medicine's just going in and it's just kind of ripping out whatever bad shit is in there.

David: 1:03:05

For me I didn't really have a lot of visions. Mine just felt kind of like an exorcism. The medicine does make you nauseous and so I did have some vomiting, vomiting and things and I had some visions of just kind of like. It almost felt like combat where there were people lurking everywhere and things. But I wasn't really seeing a lot of visions. It was just kind of this like, like I said, exorcism these two or three hours Now for anyone that's listening.

David: 1:03:32

You're probably saying to yourself that sounds awful, there's no way I'm doing that. You're probably saying to yourself that sounds awful, there's no way I'm doing that, and I would agree with you, right? If someone had told me that, like before, I might've been like oh, I'm not so sure about this. However, that's the whole reason why you're there, right, you have this sense of like this medicine is able to get in there and get to what you haven't been able to get through in the traditional talk therapy.

David: 1:03:57

The good thing, though, is, once that phase ends, I had, you know, it was this chaotic kind of experience cacophony of sound and just like felt like combat and all these types of things but all of a sudden, it just ended, and it went from that this sort of exorcism, feel to like I was floating on the most calm, serene lake in the most beautiful place you could imagine, and it was just this, ah, this sort of freedom, and what was funny about this for me is the first vision I had then was of my dog, veers, sitting on my chest, looking at me with her kind of goofy little face she has, and just kind of like.

David: 1:04:36

Looking at me like, hey, dada, hey, everything's going to be all right. And it was like 10 or 15 seconds and then she was gone and it was sort of like, okay, everything's going to be all right. And then for the next four to six hours you have this experience of having different visions. I'm going to stop there, so I don't go too far and let a few questions, then I can tell you more about what that second phase was like for me.

Carolina: 1:05:01

I'll point out, just as you're describing this from from what I understand and from what you've shared, but just thinking about people who haven't experienced this, like you're not immersed back in this experience, you're able to remove your eye mask and kind of see the room. You're not in like some crazy reliving of trauma that you can't escape from. Absolutely You're fully sort of present and cognizant of your surroundings. The medical team is there to support you. You can hear them, you can see them, you can, you know those kinds of things? Yeah, yeah.

David: 1:05:34

You're fully like for lack of a better word conscious, you know those kinds of things, yeah. Yeah, You're fully like for lack of a better word conscious, right, because it's not a drug, it's not a medicine that takes that away from you. So you can sort, you can be in control, like, and also to full disclosure, not everybody's first part was like mine. Some people just kind of had visions and they might've been kind of like intense in ways and stuff, but it wasn't as kind of kind of combat like as mine was. But, yeah, you're in full control in the sense of, as you're going through this experience, you know, the the more you cut off your senses, the more you're immersed in the visions. But at any time you can pull the eye mask up and you're you're, you're see the room, you can move around.

David: 1:06:14

I remember I had a journal with me and I turned around and grabbed the journal and I was able to write and take notes and stuff like that. You're in full control. In that way you can control how deep you want to take it. And when I got into that second phase, which we can talk about a little bit more here, I actually got into a rhythm of sort of like okay, put the eye mask down, headphones in, lay back, let the medicine show you what it's going to show you, and then that would go on for maybe 15 or 20 minutes. It's a little hard to, you know, have a sense of time. And then once I felt like whatever that experience was kind of ended, I'd pull my eye mask up, come back to the room, you know, I'd pull out my notebook take a couple notes of what I saw and then go right back in.

Raza: 1:07:07

So, yeah, you're, you're in control. Um, can I ask what the please do? What was the? Uh, what?

David: 1:07:09

was the method of the medicine. Was it like an IV? Was it a pill? Yeah, so it was pills. Um, on that tray they bring you it's. It's just they look like regular capsules, like like Tylenol capsules, right, the powder is inside and so, you know, I think I had like 10 or 12 pills for that. You know, flood dose. So, yeah, you just take it with water and it just goes. And that's why it takes about like 45 minutes for the it to take effect, cause it's got to go, you know, through and process through your stomach or however. You know I'm not a physiologist, but however it does that it's got to go through that process to get into your, your system.

David: 1:07:41

Um, so yeah, let me tell you a little bit about my experience on on the second phase which, like I said, connecting to this song is when she's singing clean and melodic and stuff like that, this sort of peaceful, serene experience. Um, so you do a lot of prep work beforehand. While you're there at Beyond, you have workshops every day where you they were in the afternoon they're called prep and integration workshops. So if you haven't had your treatment yet, you're doing prep work and it's you're doing, you're filling out stuff. You want to ask the medicine, right. And the way I kind of the feeling I got from it is you're doing this work, not because when you're there you're sort of consciously asking the questions, but you're putting those questions into that. You know, sort of subconscious, that the medicine is going to allow you to tap into. And so you know I was asking lots of questions of like I want to know, you know about my military experience, what's this? Why did this? Why did I join? Why you know all these different types of things? And there's a saying that they have about Ibogaine and it says the medicine doesn't show you what you want, it shows you what you need, right.

David: 1:08:45

And so you can't control the visions in the sense of be like I want to talk to my dad, right, and have it come up what you can do. Another guy that was there with us he likened it to sort of like a dating app. Dating apps a person pops up and you can either decide to swipe left or swipe right. You can either decide to lean into the vision or say no, I don't want it, I want a different one. It's like flipping through the channels on cable. It's not on demand. You can't pull up whatever. All you can do is flip through and lean into what you want.

David: 1:09:15

Um, and so my first vision actually after, like the vision of my dog and stuff like that um, the first vision that came up is I had a vision of my dad and I when I was like 10 years old and it was back, you know, music connection, of course. Uh, I'd been banging away on you know, tennis rackets and garbage cans and stuff in my room, playing, playing along to songs and stuff, and I had said, can we get a drum set? And my parents were like, yeah, yeah, we can do that. I don't remember the exact conversation, but we got to the point where it's like, yeah, let's go to the music store. And we were in there and we we saw this, you know, entry level five piece drum set. Um, and we said, okay, yeah, that looks like the one.

David: 1:09:54

And so my dad's like, okay, we'll get it. I said, all right, now we just need to get the cymbals right, because it was a five piece, you know, kick drum, two mounted toms, floor toms, snare drum and the cymbal stands and the hi-hat stand. But the cymbals were separate. You had to get them separate. And I remember my dad saying and this is the vision I was watching. Again, like Carolina said before, you're not reliving these experiences, you're watching them from a third-person perspective. You're seeing it happen. I'm watching myself and my dad kind of have this interaction.

Carolina: 1:10:25

Like you're watching a movie. Yeah, like watching a movie.

David: 1:10:28

Yep, yep. And when I said we just need to get the symbols, he was like, oh, we'll do that next time. And I remember being stuck in like I was watching myself and I had this experience of being like why would we get the cymbals next time? Like I understand, just saying we can't get a drum set right now, but if we're going to get the drum set, why would you not? It's like to put it to good. I was like that's like buying a guitar and say we'll just take four of the six strings for right now. And it's like, no, that's, the instrument works by having the pieces. And and I remember that experience, like it wasn't like I had no recollection of that in my conscious mind or whatever, but the medicine was kind of showing me this and what it kind of.

David: 1:11:12

The experience I had was, you know, my dad suffered from depression, from, you know, and alcoholism for most of my life. That I can remember that it just progressively got worse. And what I realized in that moment, the experience I had, as tears were running down my eyes as this was happening, was I was able to forgive him for that and a whole bunch of other stuff because that reaction he had this sort of like irrational sort of decision of like because it wasn't because of money, our family was doing well off, it wasn't that. It seemed just this irrational decision. I was like I know exactly what that is, because with my PTSD and anxiety and depression, I've done the same thing with our daughter. Right, these irrational decisions, because you're just in this protective mode. So it probably took my dad everything he had to go to the music store with me to get the drum set. But then this added decision of buying cymbals or something like that was just kind of too much and he had to kind of just protect himself and so I was able to like forgive him for anything he did or didn't do. Not from a rational point of like, I know I should forgive him because, you know, humans aren't perfect, but because I connected with him, I was able to see myself in him and him in me, and so this lasted for about 20 minutes and it was just the most beautiful kind of thing and I was able to just deal with all of it right there in a way that in conscious therapy one, I never talked about my dad in therapy at all because I was having, like these combat nightmares, and the VA was always very focused on okay. So what moments did you experience? Combat, and they want to get it down to this one experience of like here's where the bad shit happened. So let's talk about that. And what I've learned from this journey is that that's not really how trauma works, right, you carry everything from before into those environments, right? So, yeah, it was just this beautiful moment. And what was really crazy, I had a lot more visions after that, but this was kind of the waterfall moment because you know, um, it, it. It made me kind of see other things too.

David: 1:13:24

Where I was, you know, trying to be who I was. I was a kid who was, you know, philosophical and stuff, very young. I was questioning Santa Claus at five and then questioning God at like six years old and, um, I think my parents really didn't know what to do with me, right, it was sort of like let's just enjoy the holiday and stuff, and so I felt pressure, not just by my family but by, you know, society, in ways to like be a certain way, and like I can't just be a philosopher, I can't be a musician, I've got to get like the real job and do these real things. I always had ideas if I wanted to, like have a Mohawk and do you know, like express myself and always felt constrained. And so I had this experience where, you know, I could see how many decisions I made were affected by that.

David: 1:14:12

And so what really happened how this helped me deal with all the military stuff was I realized that I joined the military not for myself but to seek approval from all these other people. Like if I go and do this honorable thing and serve my country and fight right after 9-11, everyone will kind of just respect me and then I can go do whatever the hell I want and no one can say anything right. I remember saying it a lot. I was like I don go do whatever the hell I want and no one can say anything Right. I remember saying it a lot. I was like I don't want to serve. I want to have served in the sense of like I just wanted to my background.

David: 1:14:44

So it's kind of like the you know the what do they call it? The deflector shield, like in Star Wars. You know this like thing that no one can touch me Right, do whatever I want. And so once I reconciled a whole bunch of things before joining the military and I realized that I went in for the sort of not my own reasons. I was able to forgive myself and the shame and guilt I had from all the things that I did in the military or witnessed or whatnot. They were able to kind of like almost just kind of wash away in a sense, because I didn't have to reconcile it anymore, because I realized it wasn't just purely me doing it. So I was able to forgive myself in these ways too. Again blew my mind. I still am in disbelief how the medicine was able to work and kind of show you these things and have these experiences.

Raza: 1:15:35

So it almost sounds like what you were trying to reconcile has been reconciled.

David: 1:15:41

Yeah, yeah, I mean there's still. It's not a magic bullet. They are very careful to say the medicine is not magic, it's not a cure, it is healing. And so it's still like I'm still me, I'm still aware of certain things, I still get angry at stuff and different things.

David: 1:15:59

I'm not some saint now or anything, but, like you said, I was able to work through and kind of process a whole bunch of things that I wasn't able to get to in sort of regular talk therapy. Right. It kind of got in there deeper in the sense of like that, that sort of more, more more difficult first part. Feel like it just went in and kind of I actually made a drawing of it. It's like a sink with a big clog in it, right, and the therapy is trying to pull out a hair at a time, whereas the medicine just went in and went and just ripped all of that out. And then that enabled me to be in a place in that second half to kind of have these conversations, watch these things happen and process them at a deeper level than I was able to before I know.

Carolina: 1:16:49

I keep saying mine Watching Gaza's face process here.

David: 1:16:53

If I can say, if I didn't experience it myself and someone else was telling me this story, I would be like okay, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I was there, I experienced it. It was a life-changing experience, for sure, without a doubt.

Carolina: 1:17:15

And there's a lot of science that we are not prepared to discuss about what Ibogaine does to the brain and kind of resets and gives you like neuroplasticity that you didn't have and we encourage you to go do that research and read up on that. But there is like actual science too.

David: 1:17:34

We'll post some links to a couple of articles that recently just came out about Ibogaine and specifically veterans, uh to that that talk a little bit about that in ways. Yeah, Cause there's definite science behind it. It was another one of their, their sayings that went up around the screens. It said we believe in science, but not above our compassion, Right? So this is not like psychedelics and science is over here and they leave that at the door. No, the MDs and doctors and everyone that's in here are all about science. They're doing the research on all this. They're all of that, but there's definitely the experience of it. It is something beyond just. I went to a surgeon and they put a plate in my leg for my broken bone, right. The experience of it is something profound.

Carolina: 1:18:23

Yeah, and there is to the point of the science. There's been a ton of studies. Primarily, this drug was used to to treat addiction, but they've noticed that it's also really, really beneficial to folks suffering from anxiety, ptsd, um depression and, I even think, ocd, so like there is, it's just the united states stuff around psychedelics being illegal just has sort of screeched that forward progress and studies to a halt. But around the world, in all the other countries where it's legal, there's a ton of studies being done and research happening.

David: 1:18:57

Yeah, and there's a big push right now. There's things that are happening that are bringing this back up and so you know, part of doing this episode is also to share my story for anyone else that might benefit from this, so they can know about it, but it's also to get the word out there so policies and things can can hopefully start to change here. You know it's kind of the remnant of the sixties and the you know anti-war movement and counterculture that you know the U? S government kind of cracked down on on these Um, and it's been, you know, taking time to, you know, get back into the research, but it's starting to happen.

Raza: 1:19:29

So to you know, get back into the research, but it's starting to happen, so, um, so, none of us are scientists, right and um? So, yes, I don't think we can any of us, I certainly won't approach the science angle, I think, just at a very sort of high level. Um, I'll say that since you've been back and since we've been, you know, communicating and and and talked about a podcast and and and and doing this show, I'll just say that you sound like this, you sound like the David Reese that I that I know. You don't sound any any different. You sound, you sound like the same guy, right? You don't sound like you had this amazing experience and now you've turned into like Buddha or something.

Raza: 1:20:20

Um, it's, it's, it's it's the same person, maybe more more clear, headed, um and and and, uh, more clear, on, on, on, on on the vision that that you want to see, um, as far as this podcast, as far as some of the goals you know outside of this in your life that you've talked about, and things like that. So, yeah, so it sounds, sounds like my dude, dave, yeah.

David: 1:20:41

And that was going back to like my biggest concern before going, one of the biggest things I was worried about. I wasn't worried about like the physical health side, because you know we had read all the stuff, and about their medical protocols and everything like that. So I'm like I felt like you know I'm in good hands medically speaking, but, yeah, I was worried about coming out on the other side. Yeah, maybe without PTSD and depression and anxiety, but also a completely different person. Right, I was like am I going to come out and just have different values and different things?

David: 1:21:11

And the way I described it, I think, in my first text I sent to Carolina when I got back with my phone, was it's still me, but it's all of me and it's only me. So that whole talk of I'm going to fight through all of these things to have me get out we had to fight through all of these things to have me get out. The muck is just gone and so it's just a lot easier to be me, but I'm still me, 100%, still you, yeah, still me 100%.

Raza: 1:21:41

Yeah.

Carolina: 1:21:45

So the drug, from what I understand, like physically sort of acts a bit as a stimulant. So in the days after your flood dose you got kind of what they call the Ibogaine glow. You sort of feel just really amazing. And then you have what's called like a gray day, where you're just kind of on this ride right of ups and downs as you kind of come off that flood dose but you're back in your room, and downs as you kind of come off that that flood dose, um, but you're back in your room and you're able to to listen to music and and that kind of stuff. So what, what song do you kind of connect with with those immediate days after?

David: 1:22:22

Yeah, and so, um, no surprise, it's a song by Rush. Surprise, it's a song by Rush and it is a song off their last, you know studio release, clockwork Angels.

Carolina: 1:22:39

And it's a song called the Garden. Let's take a listen.

David: 1:22:43

The future disappears into memory Lonely moment between Brotherhood dwells. In that moment, hope is what remains to be seen.

Raza: 1:23:07

Brotherhood dwells in that moment.

David: 1:23:12

Rubber dwells in our moment. Hope is what remains to be seen.

Carolina: 1:23:24

Okay, so you know we talked about this being a bit of a ride after your flood dose. Why this song to encapsulate that time?

David: 1:23:36

Yeah, so interesting. This song was not one of my more favorite Rush songs from the past. You know, I think it's a good song in the past and stuff, but they Geddy, alex and Neil always they described this song as the pinnacle of their musical career in ways like this is the song that they finally, like, put it all together and nailed it kind of thing. They're like the most proud of this song. Um, and going back to what I was saying before too about like not really paying as much attention to lyrics, in ways with Rush a little bit more, because Neil's the lyricist and I'm a drummer and I like the writing and so I pay attention. But I think with this one I didn't pay attention as much to the lyrics and so it's a little bit slower and I'm like no, I want to rock, you know. But when I listened to it after, like, I was back in my room, you know, after the dose we just talked about and things and I played it. It just hits so perfect. And I can understand why they're like this is a song where we finally nailed it, because, you know, the whole idea of the garden is we're the garden. You know, in a sense, we're, we tend to ourselves and we've got to, you know, take care of ourselves. And there's lyrics in there that are all about, like, you know, the past is a distant memory, the future is there and all we have is this moment. And that just hits so well because, you know, depression and anxiety is basically being not in the present right. Depression is about the past, anxiety is about the future. So when you're living with depression and anxiety, you're not here now.

David: 1:25:14

And when I came out of that flood dose and you know, rode the ups and downs, but when I leveled back out, I felt so radically in the present moment that this song, just it went from being like that's a good song, cause it's rush, of course you know, to like this is now the song of all songs and I totally get what they mean by it, how they like nailed it in this way. So, yeah, it just represents that feeling of, of healing, of not being stuck in the past with depression or stuck in the future of anxiety, just being in the present moment and just enjoying the present and all it can be and not worried about what happens next, because once that gets here, it'll be the present and you just will enjoy that or deal with it whatever it is, and you'll tend to that garden in the present moment. You can't tend to the garden in the past or future. You can only tend to the garden right now.

Carolina: 1:26:10

And I think that's super helpful because to the, to the, to the extent that this is not a magic bullet, this treatment, this is not just cure you and make you just happy, go lucky in the present for life, like, you're going to have your ups and downs, you're going to have good and bad times. Um you feel like the song and whatnot kind of helps you reconcile that you'll you'll still have good or bad days. Make you feel a little more prepared for those.

David: 1:26:38

Yeah, and and like what the song gets out of, like, you know, it's only in the present. So you, you tend to that garden and some days the garden might be, might've gotten destroyed, right, maybe nothing grow, maybe you had a rough winter or whatever. I'm not a farmer, so I don't know all the gardening stuff. But, um, you know you got to deal with bad stuff, but the only thing you can do is something in the moment tend to the garden, right, um, and so, yeah, it just makes me realize and and kind of I was feeling it, but the song kind of brings that up of like um, yeah, if you're, just if you're fully present in the current moment, you're in, you'll, you'll know what to do. A saying that would they came up of like you know what's the secret to kind of living your life? Right, how do you live a good life? This is not not Rush, this is folks at Beyond, because while they have a medical team of like doctors and nurses and all that, they also have a team of coaches and sort of guides and stuff that are there kind of like we would think of it as like a therapist. Right, they're there to talk you through all this because you have these like kind of just eye-opening moments and then you're just come out and you're kind of raw, and so they help integrate all of it. That's why those afternoon meetings every day were called prep and integration. If you haven't done the treatment, it's prep, and once you've done the treatment, it's about integration. You're kind of putting the pieces back together because it's kind of like my God, this is the first time I've been able to kind of feel all my feelings and see all myself at once and you're kind of like what do I? What do I do? It's like overwhelming.

David: 1:28:12

I made the example of like it's like I left and I had a 1986 beat up Toyota Tricel in the garage and now I got home and there's a Ferrari in the garage. I still know how to drive, but it's going to take some getting used to because you know it's got a lot of power and stuff. So I might spin the tires a little bit, spin out. Hopefully I don't smash into a tree. But you know, like you gotta, you gotta relearn how to live without all of that that muck.

David: 1:28:38

Um and so a phrase when it was sort of like hey, how do we go forward? Um, it was a phrase I just love, and it was just two simple things Be yourself and tell the truth. Right, got a nice thumbs up there on that. Be yourself, right. And when you're mired in depression and anxiety and stuff, it's really hard to be yourself because you're worrying about what everyone's going to think and you're trying to prevent things from happening. So just be yourself and then tell the truth, be honest, and that's all you can do. You can't control how other people are going to react to it and all these types of things, and I think this song gets at some of those things about just being in the present moment. You can't control the future, you can't rewrite the past. All you have is that present moment.

Raza: 1:29:25

You know, the funny thing about this song is that there's a song on Use your Illusion 1, also called the Garden, and that's. I remember Guns N' Roses and it was. It's about a hallucinogenic trip.

David: 1:29:41

Oh, shut up, All right. Well, we've got to go back. We'll have bonus. I'll go listen to it and then we'll have a little bonus. Short about, we'll talk through that song.

Raza: 1:29:51

What are the?

Carolina: 1:29:52

odds.

Raza: 1:29:54

It's Axl Rose's Voice and then Alice Cooper does this like guest Vocals in there and it's About, you know, basically Axl tripping and going through the garden, which is the garden Of his mind, and you know Things about I don't know, just. Imagine A lot of stuff, a lot of stuff, and yeah, that's awesome but it's the garden, oh wow that's cool, but yeah, um, yeah, I don't.

Raza: 1:30:23

I don't have much to add there. I think uh rushed. I'm glad it was a rush song that triggered this emotional state and this emotional result coming out of this trip. It's cool in a way. If it was Tom Sawyer or something, I'd be like, okay, well, all right. Something I'd be like, okay, well, you know, all right, but right. But the fact that it was a new rush song and something that I don't know, it almost seems like, uh, like like a new chapter in a way.

David: 1:30:58

It's like the old familiar, but yet something completely different and something that they enjoyed and and they selected as their, as their pinnacle, right, right, and so, yeah, it's like a, it's like a reconnection with rush in a way, because it's like, oh my god, their song that they're kind of one of the ones most proud of I now have this intimate connection with because of this experience.

David: 1:31:19

So, yeah, it's just you know, I think it's why, subconsciously, I put on the Rush shirt, like I just, you know, I've got a whole number of black shirts, rush tool, all kinds of other stuff, and I just grabbed the Rush one and I think it's fitting because, yeah, it really kind of brings it all together, which is another example. However, I'm still me, right, I didn't come out liking all kinds of different music than I used to and stuff like that. No, if anything, I am just so much more connected to these bands, movies, books I've read it's been me through all of this, right, and so all of my things, all the movies I really like, I still like, and now I'm just like, oh my God, yes, I like them even more because now I can fully feel them and stuff.

Raza: 1:32:02

So, yeah, totally still me, although, if I go down this path and I come back loving Chinese democracy.

David: 1:32:11

That's not gonna be good right, and that's what I was concerned with. I'm like am I gonna come out and have completely different political beliefs and like all kinds of different stuff? Um, but no, it was not that way at all. It's not it. It didn't feel like it altered your mind. In a sense, it allowed you to see your full mind in some way, like if that makes sense.

Carolina: 1:32:35

Well, I think we talk about for so many years and I'll say that I've never known another David than this David. Like, I met him right after he'd gotten out of the military. I didn't know a younger version of him, I didn't know. You know what I mean. So this is the only david I've I've known. Um, there there was a worry of like one is he going to be a completely different person? But two, the only david I've known has been numb for so long and so like to not have that numbness has been really entertaining because he's feeling all the things like a lot of like spontaneous kind of crying and laughing and just like he's just feeling like all of it, because for so long I was so numb from the depression and anxiety but also from the meds that I was on before this were just kind of they kind of numb you.

David: 1:33:26

So, yeah, it can help to decrease the bad feelings and thoughts, but it also numbs kind of everything. So I'm just kind of feeling everything again and there's a learning process there, like this, going back to what we say the medicine isn't magic, right, I've had times since I've been back where I've gotten angry about something and it was really hard to kind of like whew, because it's like I'm feeling it fully. Right, I'm not just angry at like you know, I get the hell out of my way, kid, but like things that are like kind of justified to be angry about, let's say, whether it's something in the world or whatever. But like I got to like realize again the Ferrari. I'm like there's a lot of power here. Got to learn to drive again a little bit.

Carolina: 1:34:10

So treatment is not the same for everybody as I would imagine, and so all of you who, I think, are doing Ibogaine probably get the flood dose, but some folks get additional doses or booster doses while they're there. You did you got two booster doses. I did two booster doses. Yeah, did you got two booster doses? I did two booster doses. Yeah, um, so a little more roller coaster for you. What? What song do you do you associate with with those additional doses, and maybe visions or things that you um experienced?

David: 1:34:41

yeah. So, um, just like it makes sense that rush was a song in here, it also makes sense that tool has a song in here. Uh, I was definitely listening to a lot of tool the whole week I was there. Um, having this experience definitely connected me more to tool and the lyrics and the message, because it is this kind of spiritual trans transformation and a lot of their songs and connection to the universe and these types of things, and so this particular song is Tool Parabola.

Carolina: 1:35:14

Let's process nodding in approval.

David: 1:35:45

Let's listen.

Carolina: 1:35:46

All right. So so what? What was it about this song?

David: 1:36:11

and feeling all of these things and all of the garbage washed away and kind of riding the up and downs, because so much of tools. Music is about these kinds of connections and the spiritual connection and things bigger than ourselves and connecting with the universe and one with everyone. But this song in particular just has these, these ideas of you know, um, all this pain is an illusion. Right, this connection to like I'm in this body but I'm not alone in this body, right, it's more than that and that was a lot of the experiences I had coming out of it, of the main dose and a lot of the other things we did while we were there, because you have your dose and, like I said, about the afternoon meeting and stuff, but you're also like there's massages that are available all day, there's different meditations that are happening, there's all different kinds of experiences that are kind of connecting you back to your body in ways and connecting you back to your connection, a spiritual connection with others, the universe, god, whatever your belief system, is. Doing that, right, something bigger than yourself, which is powerful, because what depression and anxiety does, is it really just kind of closes your world? Um, doing that right, something bigger than yourself, which is, um, which is powerful, because what depression, anxiety does, is it really just kind of closes your world off in a way. Right, your world becomes just you, in in this pain, um, and so the medicine opens that up, and so do all the experiences, and so this song just kind of, for me, represents that kind of like opening up and connection. And you know, we're in our body, but we're not just our body and the pain is an illusion, because it's something so much bigger than that. So yeah, that's the connection to the song.

David: 1:37:41

Specifically, though, going to my booster dose and experiences I had there, so the booster dose is about a third of the amount. So if I had 10 or 12 pills for the flood dose, this was like three, I think it was for me three or four, and so it's not a 12 hour journey, it's a two hour journey. You don't have really too much of a distinction between kind of first phase and second phase. It's not like chaotic and then calm, it's much more, much more smooth. It's not like chaotic and then calm, it's much more smooth. And they do these booster doses. I thought when I was there that it was the people that were battling drug addictions. That did the booster doses because the research shows that doing these booster doses really helps to get that drug addiction kind of out of your system. But it's used for others too, and so me coming in with PTSD, trauma and these types of things, I also got booster doses. And so I got two booster doses and my first booster dose was just kind of like two hours of just kind of calm meditation.

David: 1:38:44

Almost I didn't really have any visions at all, it was just a time where I was very relaxed and kind of in deep reflection and things. I took a lot of notes about stuff. But my second booster and I sort of went in with this intention, remember, I said you can't bring up things in while you're on the IVA game, but you can kind of plant seeds beforehand and so you do that prep work. And for that second booster I went in with the intentions of what's my purpose in life and what the hell am I? I went in with the intentions of you know what's my purpose in life and what the hell am I supposed to be doing? For the rest of it Kind of in like a professional sense of like what do I do in the world? And so I had, just like these beautiful, beautiful visions, of two in particular. One, again, remember, it's always you're not experiencing it, you're sort of watching it like a TV. And I had this vision of me on stage giving this like Ted style talk, and the crowd, just you know, all into it and I was up there doing it and making all these points and stuff and it was just like amazing. I mean, this was just like tears strolling down my eyes as I was having this experience. Because, again, these visions are not like prophecy, it's not telling the future, it's your subconscious coming out and so giving talks I mean, I'm a teacher by training and stuff and it's what I love to do, and so giving talks is something that I had thought about wanting to do.

David: 1:40:11

But what the medicine sort of gives you is because I saw myself doing it. I now have no fear of doing it because in a sense, it's already happened in some way. I saw it happen and I saw it go beautifully. So now it's just, if that opportunity presents itself and I want to pursue that, there's no fear there, there's no anxiety about it, there's no any. If that opportunity presents itself and I want to pursue that, there's no fear there, there's no anxiety about it, there's no, any of that. And so that's like what the medicine kind of gives you in these ways. It's. It's again, it's not telling the future in like a literal sense, but it's those things in you that you want to do your dreams, that you kind of push down right. Your rational mind pushes down, you're like like no, I could never give a ted talk or something like that. And the medicine sort of gives you this gift of seeing it and you're like no, you totally can look, I'm showing you right now so incredibly powerful.

Raza: 1:41:00

All the things that you sort of aspired to do or aspired to want to do have been sort of visualized. Um, you've already visualized the things that you, that you have wanted to do but have not yet been able to do, exactly exactly. Yeah, that's. I mean, that's powerful yeah, and not.

David: 1:41:24

And what's cool is this is what the medicine does and takes it to a next level, because visualization is part of therapy in all kinds of ways. Right, you visual, like before you go do anything they tell you, you know, visualize yourself doing it and imagining it going. Well, and you see it, but that's up here, and so you're fighting all of your doubts and all the other things people have ever told you in your life. The medicine gets you out of here and so it's just here. So it's just that pure. The medicine gets you out of here and so it's just here. So it's just that pure like vision of it in, like without any of like the talk from up here and stuff. So, yeah, really amazing. The other vision I had that really stuck out in it was I had a vision of a building in New York City and it was the building of the publishing house that's going to publish the book I'm going to write, right, city, and it was the building of the publishing house that's going to publish the book I'm going to write. And so, again, not prophecy, not like, well, now I have to write a book, but writing a book, I mean, I was working on my PhD right, and we're about to start my dissertation, which is not necessarily a book, but it's a book-length type of endeavor, and so seeing that again just took all the fear away from it because it's like, yeah, if you want to make it happen, it can happen. You don't have to be scared of it, don't let anyone tell you not, don't naysay yourself, don't talk yourself down about it. If you want to do it, you can do it. So, yeah, just an amazing gift that the medicine can give you. And so this was just I had tears rolling down my eyes and like, when you're in the treatment room this is something I didn't mention before in the treatment room there are nurses monitoring you 24 seven. They're right there with you checking everything. The doctors are in another room, they are getting reports from the nurses of the EKG and stuff, and occasionally the doctors will come through and just check on every, you know, check on the people doing doses and stuff like that. So again, just that level of safety and care is exceptional.

David: 1:43:19

But as people would come in like I would have these visions, so I had the vision of the TED talk kind of thing, and then I like I said I would pull the eye mask up and kind of take notes and I'm just bawling because it was like just the most beautiful, like vision, you know, and nurses were coming by or a doctor was coming by and they like come in and they like check on you, and this is what was great about the entire medical staff is they'd only just check on you medically. They're checking on you like emotionally, spiritually and all of it Right, because they know this experience. And so one doctor came in and he like held my hand and he was like how are you doing? How are you doing? I was like I just saw this vision of my life and it's beautiful and I'm just like bawling and they're like you know they're.

David: 1:43:59

One nurse came in and this was the most beautiful experience. I blew my mind. He came in and he saw me just like crying and stuff. He didn't say a word, he didn't ask me anything. He like held my hand and he just started saying things like you can let the past go, it doesn't have to control you I'm paraphrasing here it doesn't have to control you. Just soak all this in. It's all you, it's you know all these beautiful things.

David: 1:44:25

And I was like, wow, that's going above and beyond as a nurse and I thought that was it Then, like above your head, like there's a shelf there and they have like some essential oils and stuff. He gets some essential oils and he starts, like you know, putting rubbing here, and he's rubbing my temple and stuff as he's there and he's kind of still saying stuff and really just you know, putting me at ease, and I was like, clearly, that's it. Nope, he continued rubbing and then he starts singing this most beautiful song in Spanish about my abuelita and that's the one word I picked up and stuff, and just this beautiful. And it was like he didn't ask me what I was going through. He didn't ask anything, he just showed up with this loving kindness for me in this moment. And so the medical staff there yes, they've got the medical stuff down, but it's so much beyond just that. It's definitely like what they talk about care of the whole person, totally.

David: 1:45:20

It's like a profound experience you had 100%, yeah, and another saying they have that rotates on the TV screens throughout the house is we believe the experience is the medicine, and I couldn't agree more.

David: 1:45:36

Yes, the medicine is key, it does a whole bunch of work, but it's everything around it that's happening before, during and after that really makes the entire experience and the sort of healing possible. Like if I just showed up there and I was in a hotel room by myself and never interacted with anyone and just showed up for the actual treatment doses and then went back to my room, yeah, I'd probably have some benefit from it, obviously from the medicine, but I would not have as a profound experience as I did. Yeah, I was able to connect with the spiritual part of myself that I think had been, you know, covered over for a long time, and I mean spiritual here in the like largest sense of the term, not one religion or anything like that, but that sense of like feeling connected to others, feeling part of the world or universe or all of that like, yeah, definitely profound.

Carolina: 1:46:29

So, as your, as your time came to an end there and this is our last song and you're kind of processing all that you experienced getting ready to come home, to integrate back into your life what was the song that was part of that? Just completion of the whole journey there.

David: 1:46:47

Yeah, so this was a song. This is not an artist that I had been following like tool or rush for most of my life. I came upon this artist by chance on my way down there, as I was just kind of clicking through different music. And you know, when you're in Apple music or Spotify or anything, you click a song and then it's like suggest others you might like, and so this song is by an artist called Kay Flay, uh, and it's got tom morello featured in the song, and the song is called tgif let's, let's take a listen.

Carolina: 1:47:19

The world is filled with psychopaths. So I wanna jank, I wanna fight, I wanna rage against the fucking machine. They tell me I can't be myself, but myself's all I can be. I'm unique and I do it seven days of the week. I'm feeling free, but the world don't wanna keep me down. See, I'm a king. I won't let anybody take my crown. I'm about a Friday and I'm feeling alive. I'll do it my way Till the day that I die. Thank God it's Friday and I'm getting some love.

Raza: 1:48:00

Little fingers up Till the Rico shows up. Yeah.

Carolina: 1:48:11

That was awesome.

David: 1:48:12

Love it, it she's awesome, like I'd never heard of her before and, oh my god, she's this badass. Mixes like alternative with hip-hop and rap and indie pop. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, that was badass.

Carolina: 1:48:26

Um all right, sorry. Back to your question here, um. I love how I learned new stuff here. But um, so what, what, what about? This song encapsulates just kind of the whole thing yeah.

David: 1:48:40

So I mean I said it a few times already of just the feeling of having no fear. Now, um, and this song just kind of represents that. Right, I feel like you know a lot of the depression and anxiety and stuff is, you have all of these ideas coming from the outside world into you of what you should be or what you shouldn't be, and you're always kind of fighting against that. You're trying to be yourself, but you feel constrained in ways. And now after that, but you feel constrained in ways, and now, after that, after all the treatment and all the work, I just am like unapologetically me and I have no fear about being myself. And so this song just is like that, I mean middle fingers up till the Reaper shows up, like that's, that's it right. Like fuck all of you all, and what you want me to do, I'm going to be me until the day I die. I'll leave you all, and what you want me to do, I'm going to be me until the day I die, right, and so it just like I said, I heard it at the beginning of my journey, before I actually had the treatment, and I just love the music, cause I was obviously listening to like raging at some machine or something like that.

David: 1:49:42

So it suggested this cause Tom Morello's in it and I I like the second it kicked in. I was like this is some pretty awesome stuff here. And so, yeah, it just felt it feels like the perfect anthem for coming back into, not the real world, but coming back from the treatment center to my actual life. Of this is kind of my anthem and maintaining of I'm going to be myself and I'm going to tell the truth and it's up to you whether you want to stick around or not and that's all we can do. So, yeah, yeah, middle fingers up to the Reaper shows up.

Raza: 1:50:13

I love it. It's cool. It always sounds like like throughout the experience I don't know if it's, if it's chemicals or the brain chemistry or the mix of both or whatever you know all of it is, but probably all of it. Yeah, the experience Right, both or whatever you know all of it is, but probably all of it. Yeah, the experience right.

Raza: 1:50:32

Yeah, and not not just the treatment experience, but the experience of your life, filtered through this experience, and and and and and uh, and whatever changes and shifts may have happened, but it's, it's. It's really cool to see how you're picking out things like from the first song, from from, from, from a scene or or, or dream, or or, or a scene with your dad, to then now not full circle, but but this next chapter. But it's basically, it seems, like the medicine, the experience, the treatment center, all of it. It's allowed you, your brain, to process positive and happy notes that are already there. They may have been sort of subconscious, but it's there and it's helped you sort of pluck out those cherry, pick those cool positive moments and maybe re-appreciate them in a different kind of way.

Raza: 1:51:32

I'm sure you have to be under the influence a little bit to get to that state, but that's kind of what I'm getting Right and that's where the medicine comes in right. Yeah.

David: 1:51:41

It's not just the medicine, it's everything around it, like you said, of how you set this up, the questions you ask, the issues you're coming in with, whatever all these things. The medicine is just like this, like boost to really get you to this. Yeah, it's doing the same thing the talk therapies and everything else. It's not like I was doing all this talk therapy and then I went and did this and this was telling me something entirely different that the talk therapy was trying to get at. No, everyone's trying to get at the same thing of like, get rid of all the like crap that's keeping you down, so you can just be you in the world.

David: 1:52:11

So, yeah, and this really goes back to that idea of like it's still just me, but now it's, it's fully me, and so I'm just excited to be me, with no fear and no anxiety around what people are going to think, like I used to, man, when I was at my worst, I'd be like I couldn't sit, still I'd be out somewhere, and I'd be like adjusting because I'm like my shirt's not right, people are going to say something, stuff, and now I'm like, hey, today I decided to wear, you know, a whatever and I don't care what you think, because I'm just wearing it for me and I even have ideas. If someone's like, oh, you think that shirt's appropriate, or I can't believe you would wear that and be like, well, I'm not wearing it for you. So it's good if you don't like it or not, because it doesn't matter, because I'm not wearing it for you. Right, this just reconnection to like, being authentically you.

Raza: 1:52:55

I don't know if it was yoda or if it was which, which one of the great you know thinkers but I know I've heard this somewhere, which is that you know um, like a child or a student goes and, and then it's like I'm seeking all these answers and and, and I guess it's yoda or you know um. You could replace yoda with whichever one of your you know philosophers, but you don't get it right.

David: 1:53:20

We're gonna get tons of comments, but that's cool because I don't drive it's yoda traffic to the page yeah yeah, yoda was in star trek, right right, that much I know, oh my.

Raza: 1:53:31

God, yeah, that's for me, but basically so Yoda's response, or Yoda in quotes, the response would be you know, my child, the answer you speak lies within you. That's what I'm getting. The answer's already there. This thing is helping you 100%.

David: 1:53:49

Right, and, since you brought that up, there's also that phrase and I think it's Yoda, but it's like you must unlearn what you've learned, and that's a lot of it too, because the unlearning is all of those voices you've been hearing that have been trying to put you in a certain box or make you not be who you are. You've got to unlearn all that, right, and yeah, it's exactly that. And related to that too is the other like interesting thing about it, kind of, like I said, with the forgiveness of my dad, I also kind of have forgiveness for anybody and anything that's ever tried to put me in a box and make me be not something I really wanted to be, because I know we all do these things because of our own pain and struggles we're going through, right, people want to control things, they get scared of difference and stuff, and so I don't have this like anger towards any of you know culture, society, parents, whatever. That was like no, no, no, don't do that. No, you can't be a musician as your job. You got to go get a real job or you know these things we hear, because I know where that comes from, right, and it comes from those places of pain and fear and shame and guilt and everything like that.

David: 1:54:57

But when you flip that and you aren't operating under fear, shame and guilt and you're operating around love and kindness and curiosity, you don't do that. You're not threatened by others. So you then want other people to be their full selves, and so it's. I know the last song was middle fingers up till the Reaper shows up, but it's sort of just middle fingers up, like I'm not going to listen to all that. But I don't hate you all because I understand why people do those things now in a different light. But yeah, the answer is within you.

Carolina: 1:55:29

Nice, all nice all right, friend, that was your six songs. Yeah, how, how does it feel just hearing these last profound weeks of your life reflected through these songs that carried you through yeah, it's, it's funny because, you know, I've, like we've said I've told the story a few times already.

David: 1:55:56

Like I've told it to you, carolina, I, you know, I I called my mom and I told her all the stories and stuff like that.

David: 1:56:02

I told it to our daughter and, um, another friend or two, but, um, but every time I tell it it's not just like a report of facts, it's an experience in itself, right, we talk about, you know, I talked about how, after you have the treatment, it's about integration, right, putting all the pieces back together in a way. And I feel like this experience of doing it on the podcast with the music in it you know I picked the songs, the songs were there, I knew what the songs were, but hearing them again and having this discussion with you both, really just kind of it is. It's taken it to a next level of sort of integration, in that way of just like, yeah, this is me and so, yeah, it feels, it feels amazing it's, it feels fucking great. Really, I mean, I can't like it's the most amazing experience of of my life in this sort of like personal sense, right, personal growth or personal transformation or something like that.

Raza: 1:56:56

So, yeah, I'm glad you chose to do that. I'm, I'm glad you chose to do this at this time, um, and I'm, and I'm actually I'm super glad that that you have this platform to do this with. Again, I'm just thinking of you know, the David that I know having to process all of the stuff before and then this profound experience and then using the same platform to talk about that experience. So there's a lot going on here, man. Yeah, totally.

David: 1:57:39

And I'll say not to go into too much detail about it, but another vision I had in that second booster when I had the vision of the TED Talk and stuff. I also saw the podcast and other things I want to do kind of all tie together in this beautiful way of how, like this podcast felt like an idea I just had and we're like, yeah, let's do it, this will be fun, maybe we'll get to talk to some of our favorite musicians, or something like that.

Raza: 1:58:05

It'll be cool.

David: 1:58:07

But now I see how this endeavor of this podcast is connected to the TED talk I might give or the book I might write and these types of stories of transformation and help and healing and all of this. So, yeah it it really kind of brought everything together and it's like, yeah, starting the podcast when we did was the right thing and again, it took courage to do that. I didn't feel like it at the time, but it did and it was part of the healing process too, and so, like you said, to have this platform now or this space to be able to tell this story is just yeah, it's awesome.

Carolina: 1:58:44

Now somebody might be watching or listening and saying, look, you know, this guy is doing like watching or listening and saying, look, you know, this guy is doing like flipping, amazing, right, he's, he's got you know, no fear, he's got all of his like confidence back, his joy, all these things, which, which is true, it's been amazing. But somebody could think like all right, so he's good here, like doesn't need therapy anymore, doesn't need to like we're just good to go, and that's not. That's not the case, right? So can you share a little bit about where you go from here?

David: 1:59:17

Yeah, uh, the example I would give um cause I mentioned it before about a surgeon fixing your broken leg, which I also have experience with, um, you know, you go into the surgery and, yeah, they fix your bone and they put the plate on and you're healed, you're better, but that's not the end of your journey, right. You're in a cast for a little bit after that and then you've got physical therapy. You've got to kind of relearn to use the leg. You've got to stretch things out, you've got to rebuild the muscle. You've got to do all these things. Yes, the leg is healed, it's fixed. There's no danger to the leg, like my surgeon said. Like, no, the leg with the plate on it stronger than any other bone in your body right now You'll break every other bone before that.

David: 1:59:58

But there's still work to be done. And it's the same with this. While, yes, the fear is gone, the anxiety is gone, I'm not mired in depression. I feel very much in the present moment and things. There's still a lot of work to be done to kind of.

David: 2:00:17

You know, the way they described it is that integration of like I have to re learn how to live my life because for so long I was living it with PTSD, anxiety and depression. So it's like it's great, you know, but now I've got to figure out how to do it. I mean, we've had that experience, you know, in getting back, you and me, carolina, right, we're sort of like, yeah, it's great, I don't have this, but it's like it's different now, right, cause I have no fear, which also means I don't have much of a filter, right, so I'll say things that before I would have just kept to myself. And so there's that of like, okay, wait, I can't just say everything that comes to my mind, I've got it. So, again, the Ferrari example is really true, right, I have a Ferrari now, let's say, but I also can't get on the highway and go 150 miles an hour every day, or we're going to have some real problems, and so it's relearning all of that. So, yeah, continued therapy, or maybe not in a formal, with a therapist, but like, there's like people that focus on psychedelic integration, coaching, right, that help you kind of rebuild after this process and kind of how you go forward.

David: 2:01:19

The other thing about it is you know they say it there the medicine is not a cure, it is not magic, it is healing. And going back to the. We won't get into the science of it because I don't necessarily know all the science, but one thing the medicine does is it sort of resets your brain to a level of neuroplasticity quote unquote, kind of a buzzword now but to where it is much easier for you to create habits, right. So we all know a kid at like six or seven years old can pick up stuff like this. Right, they learn foreign languages super fast.

David: 2:01:52

Us in our 40s, it's much harder. That's because our you know, synapses and all the stuff in the brain are much more weathered in, right, they're worn into it. It's much harder to get out of it. What the medicine does is it sort of removes that and kind of makes it easier to create new habits. So if you, like you were depressed and you weren't exercising and stuff, well, now it's easier to start the exercise habit. Those barriers aren't there.

David: 2:02:21

But it's just as easy to create new bad habits, right, you're sort of in this almost vulnerable state where you know they talk about, especially with the people that were struggling with drug addictions, right, like if you go back home and you go right back to your same group of people doing those same things that you left from, you're going to develop those habits again and you'll be back there, right.

David: 2:02:45

And so it's work now on the backside to continue to develop those habits you actually want. And some of those habits are the ones we learned there, right the meditation and different things that can help you stay grounded and focused and not get overwhelmed by anger and these other things. And so, yes, it is still work. It is not a magic bullet, but I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. I'd said that when I was there. I was like if someone walked up to me today and said, I will give you $100 million right now, but you will be back where you were before you went down to beyond and the Ibogaine treatment, I'd said no way, not in your life, no way, absolutely not.

Carolina: 2:03:31

That's awesome. I know I'm your spouse and I'm super happy for you, but I'm super happy for you.

Raza: 2:03:37

Yeah.

Carolina: 2:03:37

Yeah, all right. So in the few minutes we have left here, you know, tell folks what you've got going on. We're excited for a season two of this podcast or our second album, and for the people who might be interested in what steps they may take if they're struggling with trauma, anxiety, pt or addiction, maybe some steps if they want to look into Ibogaine or the Beyond Clinic.

David: 2:04:06

Yeah, yeah for sure. So, yep, we've got, you know, season two of this podcast. This is the. You know this is the first track that we're releasing, if you will. We've already got guests lined up so there is more in the store. We've got all kinds of good guests coming and we're going to have more conversations on telling people's life stories and key life moments through music. So, you know, you know the drill, like and subscribe and all of that. So you, you hear those episodes, um, and yeah, for anyone out there that is um, uh, struggling, whether it's with addiction or veterans with PTSD, depression, anxiety, all of it, um, my, my.

David: 2:04:49

The thing I would want to say to you all is take the first step. The first step is, is is most likely for me, you know, is the scariest right. Take that first step and then just keep saying yes to whatever people offer right. Not whatever people offer right. No, we won't, not not the bad things, but any types of treatment and therapy and the next group and the next group and stuff like that. Just keep saying yes and and you'll get there.

David: 2:05:20

And if you specifically want, you know, to look into, you know, psychedelic treatment, you know I went to beyond. It's B, e, o, n, d. We'll have links in the show notes. But I went to Beyond for my treatment and you know I would highly recommend it to anyone. There's a number of other treatment centers around. So you know, look around, find what feels right to you. Don't feel pressured to do anything you don't feel comfortable with. If it feels wrong or sketchy, it might be and that's what you know. That's why I can stand by Beyond so much, because it never felt that way at all. It was the greatest experience of my life. So definitely check them out and you can always reach out to us through the podcast. You know a life in six songs podcast at gmailcom. Send us a message, reach out and we'll try and point you in the right direction or at least chat with you and find out where you're at and try and get you going in a better direction. It does get better. You're not alone.

Carolina: 2:06:21

Stay with us, stay here alright, our fearless host, would you like to send us off?

David: 2:06:41

alright, everybody. Thanks for listening to another. All right, our fearless host, would you like to send us off ibogaine or other psychedelic treatment? Share it with people who might have a more rigid view around this type of treatment so we can come to normalize psychedelic treatment. Share it with your local, state and federal government representatives so we can get these medicines approved for medical use in the US. Again, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on A Life in Six Songs.