Kyle: [00:00:00] Welcome to Gen X Mindscape, the podcast dedicated to exploring the complexities of midlife and the pursuit of a purposeful life. I'm your host and fellow Gen Xer Kyle here to accompany you on this journey. Today we'll be diving deep into a topic that is incredibly important and relevant to many of us in midlife body image.
Today I'll be talking with Dr. Rachel Rogers of Northeastern University in Boston. We will be seeking to better understand body image and midlife challenges to having a positive body image in midlife and how to promote a positive body image in ourselves, our loved ones and our communities. Talking about body image can be a difficult topic, especially in midlife when as if we don't have enough transitions to navigate.
Our bodies happen to be going through a transition too. So that's exactly why I wanted to bring this conversation to the forefront. [00:01:00] I really am incredibly thankful Dr. Rachel Rogers has been so generous with her time and is joining us today. So welcome and thank you so much Dr. Rogers. Thank you, Kyle.
It's my pleasure. Yes. Well, let's get to it. Can you start by just telling us a little bit about body image and, and why it's such an important topic to our lives? Yes. Body image is the subjective experience somebody has of being in their body and how they evaluate their body. So it's important to distinguish from somebody's appearance.
That's something that you can see. You cannot see their body image because that is their own internal experience of being in themselves. So we're not talking about people's appearance here. We're talking about their inner experience of that body. Image is important in a number of ways. One of them, I believe, is that our society is increasingly moving towards a place [00:02:00] where a appearance is capital in terms of financial, social capital.
In a number of ways. . Mm-hmm. And therefore, this makes physical appearance salient to people. And because the visual environment is very saturated in images that are highly unrealistic and offer appearances that are unattainable to most people, a lot of people's experience of being in their body is of being in one that doesn't look like what they're seeing in those Exactly.
Yeah, so that's such an important topic and wanted to get into the particulars of midlife and concerns about body image in midlife. What do we know about that? Yeah, so first of all, I would say, I mean, midlife is a loose conceptualization. Let's, let's imagine it somewhere between the age of 40 and say, 65 there, there's really a firm boundary there.
But it's a time of life.[00:03:00] As you're saying where there are a number of transitions and those can include having children and that might be a physical experience for you or another type of experience, but it's not, it's an important one either way. And then there are social roles towards the end of midlife.
There might be changes in terms of work, retirement, and then some people may go be going through menopause or equivalents of it, hormonal changes of some sort. So there are a lot of things going on. And appearance ideals, as we were just talking about, are not only unrealistic, but they're also incredibly youthful.
And therefore, . As people age, inevitably they move away from this very youthful ideal. And that can lead to concerns with things that are specific to aging, like. Hair or tone or skin quality, complexion, all of those types of things. We know that as people get older, the way that weight distributes on the body also changes.
And that can [00:04:00] lead to you being red socially as it belonging to a different age group. And so all of these things can affect that in terms of how prevalent it is. Unfortunately we don't have good data on this. Developmental period, let's call it. Yeah. I'm sure we'll talk about this more, but it affords a lot more investigation and research.
Given however, that we know that there are these unrealistic ideals and that most people are moving away from them, I think it's fair to say that many people will have some level of concern, dissatisfaction, and we do know that for a small group of people, this actually becomes quite impairing and severe.
Yeah, as I was talking about this interview with some of my closest friends, it, and I think it is something that, it's another one of those topics that we just don't talk about, and so we think we're the only ones. Yeah. Which makes it worse. What Factors do we wanna be aware of that can make midlife [00:05:00] body image difficult...
Transcribing...
Kyle: . So we, we know that body image is affected by things at multiple layers. So there, there will be genetic and epigenetic and personality factors, and then there are social ones and. All of this contributes. If we think about some of the big contributors, and particularly some of the ones that are modifiable, which are often the ones we are most interested in, there are some of them that are at the personality level that include things like perfectionism.
People who tend to be more perfectionistic, more anxious are also likely to feel that way about their bodies. Then there are things like the degree to which one, adheres and scribes to this idea that there is really only one way to work and that some bodies have more value than others. We call that internalization of the ideal.
And so the degree to which one internalizes that ideal is gonna be a risk factor for having [00:06:00] concerns, the degree to which appearance is central to you as a person. So your investment in appearance is also going to modulate things a bit, and that, of course is not, it's not only a factor of who you are.
It might also be dependent on what your social position is, what your profession is. Professions are intimately tied to the way they look, and therefore for them, clearly this is going to be a very central part of who they are. For other people, it, it might be less.
Yeah I was interested in how you talked in your article that we sometimes compare with our younger selves. Mm-hmm. So so our understanding is that people's trait level of investment in these ideals and how important it is to them is then activated as they move through the world through things like appearance, comparisons.
Which can be with other people that they're seeing. You know, you are in a social situation, you're seeing other people or you're [00:07:00] watching a movie, but it can also be with our memory of a younger self. And I think in, in midlife, that's definitely something that comes up because you know, maybe you're going, let's say the reunion of a group of people you haven't seen for a while, right?
Yes. But there's been covid and for whatever reason, You haven't seen people for a bit, and so comparisons to the way that you think you looked before last time you were in that situation are, are likely to come up. And people people who do a lot of that comparing or who believe that they're doing poorly in terms of that comparison and that's their experience are, are likely to have more concerns.
Yeah, that's an amazing point. And for me, just having that self-awareness is just really helpful that I have been trying to train myself not to compare with others. And now I have realized, have, I have to not compare it to my own younger self as well.
I think for [00:08:00] some people, Seeing their bodies aging, can kind of make them confront mortality too, which I know is something that you, you have written about. Absolutely. The aging of the physical body is in some ways the external sign of the fact that we are aging and we are all mortal.
And so even in people for whom appearance is perhaps not something that gives them a strong sense of self and who are critical and resistant to these appearance ideals can still see those signs of aging as a reminder of time passing. And the fact that we are moving in one direction and so, and so that can bring up a lot of anxiety.
It is absolutely normal to have anxiety about the idea of death and passing away. Mm-hmm. Yep. It's something that is also slightly taboo in society. We don't all spend a lot of time at dinner parties talking about how we feel about our lives and, you know, if we, if we have resolved our existential anxieties and are at peace with the [00:09:00] world.
We, we probably should do more of that. That's right. in terms of living a good life, you know, for me it's embracing reality which is really a major goal for a lot of us, I think. So I just love that point. I agree. I not wanting to get too far off topic but I would actually that a little further. I think that Appearance ideals are not random.
Right. They're, they're political and economically driven. Yes. And one of the reasons for which appearance ideals are youthful is that they serve as a way of containing existential ideals and denying that. Right? Yes. And in in the same way that the body is positioned as a project. So we are all socialized to be trying to look our best, right, to be trying to move towards the ideal, even as we know that it is impossible.
And therefore we participate in that process by consuming products and services and we are virtuous. By doing so even if we [00:10:00] never get to the ideal, and therefore this is also a way of containing existential anxiety by focusing it on something that's very controllable. I e are emphasizing, are we eating?
Yes. It's, it's so related and it all, as you say, takes us away from an embodied perspective where we're actually a attuned to what is going on in our bodies and its needs because, you know, Needing rest, for example, is another kind of way of saying One day I'm gonna die. Yeah. And for the more we can deny that, the more we can be part of grind culture.
Right. Yeah. That is such an amazing point. That is spot on like a motto for this. This podcast, so thank you Rachel. Yes. You know, it is, it is about embracing reality and it's about being aware of your experiences and your influences and. And making your own decisions at this point, being wiser, not being a child that just swallows it up whole and isn't, isn't aware of it.
And, and moving [00:11:00] forward with the time that we've got . Any other factors that we wanna be aware of that makes midlife body image difficult, yeah, there's, there's one point that I also want to bring up, and that's the idea of, of someone's social and sexual capital as related to. Appearance and this is something that changes through midlife.
And as people start noticing it change, that can be an important moment as well. And it doesn't have to be a negative moment. And I think this is one of the really interesting things is that if we, if we think about the way that body image And appearance are gendered. One of the things that we notice, for example, is that women and gender minorities tend to experience a lot more sexual objectification.
Their, their value is reduced to their appearance to a greater extent than happens to [00:12:00] men. It happens to men too. But more so in women and gender minorities, and therefore, as the aging process occurs though, that process of objectification lessons because people's. Sexual capital decreases. Mm-hmm. And that can be experienced as a real relief.
Somebody who has spent their life feeling unsafe because of the way that they are perceived by other people as. Attractive and being catcalled and those types of things Yes. Can find it really enjoyable to no longer be submitted to that gaze and that social experience. Yeah. And to, to benefit from the invisibility that aging gets.
Oh wow. For other people it can be a huge loss. Yeah. Of a way that they were recognized of a way that they interacted with people that was pleasurable, that gave them a sense of value, and that is now no longer there and won't really be recoverable. Right. [00:13:00] Wow. Two, two big sides of the coin there.
And your paper that I found was in particular on men and would, would you talk just a little bit about , can you give us some insight on that as well ?
Yes. So I think a couple of the particularities for men are firstly, that to some extent they have been protected from these appearance pressures due to being men. At the same time, there are particular aspects of appearance that they might be sensitive to. For example, one of the things that is strongly associated with masculinity is muscularity and as men age, As with anybody else, they will gradually start losing muscle tone and body shape will change and that can be something that is concerning.
They, they may also have receding hairlines and other things that are related to aging. And those, those specific aspects can also [00:14:00] be concerns that are gendered it. It may also be that they have an experience in which there is sort of a disconnect in terms of their social capital compared to the women in their lives because they're socialized differently.
And so that can be. And experience. And then of course, we also know that people's relationships flow during life. And I think something that is really interesting to think about and that we should know more about is how, how that and aging are, are wrapped up. I mean, for men and for anybody else, but we, we know that.
Such a large proportion of relationships and at some point, many of them in midlife. But therefore there's also kinda a, a tension point there of, of things going on. Yeah. You know, and you know, I'll just admit I can really relate to that. And this is one of the questions that I've been working through as I've thought about talking with you, is [00:15:00] I'm lucky.
I feel healthy. I enjoy going to the wellness center. I've been, I enjoy lifting weights for a number of reasons. One is I enjoy the experience. It makes me feel stronger. I know that it's good for me in terms of helping me, my longevity and my energy, but part of it too is, It affects how I look, right? And so I've been trying to reconcile that a little bit in terms of, you know, doing it for the right reasons, but also having that, I don't know, I'll call it anxiety, body image anxiety.
I don't know the right term. That is a mini motivator there as well. We can edit this out if that doesn't make sense, but what, what would your reaction to that be? It makes perfect sense. I mean, my reaction is that that seems very human, but I think one of the really difficult things in this area is that You can recognize that appearance ideals are political, that they serve [00:16:00] the interests of those who already hold power and privilege, that they're a part of gatekeeping, that they're, you know, oppressive.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. We live in a society where, That is a fact of life and therefore it's also entirely human to want to reap the benefits. Yeah. Benefits are there. Right. And, and to feel pressure from a system and to be responsive to those pressures, it's. That's right. It's, it's not an easy situation.
It isn't. But you know, I'm, this might sound weird, but I think let's , let's be the generation here, and let's see if we can you know, , move the culture in a different way, even in our small ways in terms of, like you said being aware of the system and embracing a different way, if at all possible.
So let's transition to talking a little bit about where we might go from here. What are some healthy ways to approach body imaging in midlife ? Yeah. Well, I think that there are some things that are inward [00:17:00] facing and then that there are some things that are more outward facing and sort of moving towards that activism.
But in terms of of one's own equilibrium, I think it can be helpful to remind yourself of the fact that. An aging body is a good thing to have. Mm-hmm. It means you're still alive and you're still aging and that That's right. Good thing. Yes. I'm making that into a bumper sticker here, Rachel. Very nice. And so you, there is a, there is a place where an aging body is a success.
It's a series of wins. You've got this far. I love it. I love it. And the i, the idea that bodies don't age or that they continue to look youthful and polished and perfect is something that is sold to us to get our money and to make us feel bad about ourselves. It is, it's not, it's not realistic. Right.
It's. It's not realistic. It's it's, it's a marketing [00:18:00] technique and and that doesn't mean that it's not valid to wake up on Sundays and not feel entirely delighted with one's appearance. Right. I don't think that the goal should be to feel delighted with one's appearance 24 7. Perfect. Yeah. In my opinion, the goal is to be at peace with one's body.
And that means that when feelings or thoughts come up, and they will, as we all move through life, we can observe them, we can see them, we can be reminded that we live in this society in which we are told that appearance is the most important thing about us, right? And that we will inevitably not live up to that standard and we cannot react to it.
Right. We can notice the thought, let it go, not feel that we have to behaviorally react to change our appearance in any way and not be affected by it too much. And I think for me, that would be [00:19:00] an ideal position is to have that flexibility and acceptance. That, that there will be fluctuating feelings and thoughts that this is part of life.
Right? We live in this very demanding and unrealistic society and that we don't have to engage in it. Yes. That is, I love that. I love that It's being, it is being mindful. For me. Yeah. It says for me to be more mindful of the influences to recognize, to filter out truth in terms of the what I'm receiving.
And like you said, like we've talked about acceptance. Acceptance of where we're at, where we're at, we're all doing our best. And like you said, cherishing what we do have in terms of, I'm I, this, I'm hearing this phrase myself.
I'm cherishing my aging body. Today is just a wonderful way of looking at it. I have been thinking too about others in my life and [00:20:00] influencing them positively one of the populations I've been thinking about Are my kids. A lot of us midlifers have children who are adolescents or emerging adults, and
can you talk a little bit about , what you might suggest for parents of that age? Yes. And this is such a great point, and I think it speaks to bit to more of those outward facing things that that I was mentioning. So parents have a huge influence on the way that children relate to their own bodies through two main pathways.
One of them is through modeling. So as parents, Move through their lives, their children will observe them relating to their bodies in, in certain ways. Do they make comments about their own bodies? Do they change their behaviors in terms of eating and exercising? Do they avoid putting themselves in certain situations?
Right? Those types of things. And children use those as cues to understand how one should feel about one's body. And so if a [00:21:00] child sees a parent, Being accepting, being non-reactive to changes in their appearance emphasizing other aspects of a person rather than appearance. Those are all things that will help to foster positive body image in children.
Yes. The other pathway is the way that parents directly relax directly. Sorry, relate to the. The children's bodies. Yes. So do parents make comments about what their children are wearing, what they're eating, the way that they're moving their bodies, or that they're not, those are things that make a really big impact on children.
It's, it's really important to emphasize that parents are always well-meaning. I'm convinced yes. Parents are always well-meaning, right? And sometimes their interventions can be paradoxically not particularly helpful, right? That's right. They, they see something, they wanna fix it, they want it to be better.
That's what we [00:22:00] want in all aspects of parenting. Again, it comes back to mindfulness and getting our, our mind straight. I, I think for me, as I hear you talking about that, making sure that I exude. Acceptance of myself, acceptance of my body values, value of other aspects of me in terms of how I treat people and what I'm creating or how I treat myself.
It really starts from there. And I would imagine would exude out from there. Exactly. Exactly. And the more that parents can also convey unconditional acceptance of their children's bodies, yes. The better. Oh, I love it. I love it. I was just gonna ask too about those of us in partnerships or marriage and
I think when a lot of 'em started, how has it started? It's a lot of 'em start by body, you know, body attraction . It starts from there and our relationships change and our bodies change. And [00:23:00] I wonder if you have any other insights on that.
Yeah, that's another really important point. And obviously those types of relationships, as you say, are special because there was physical attraction at the beginning.
And maybe there still is, and maybe that's changing. But I think overall the message is the same. We've actually been doing a little bit more work in midlife women this time. And I, I don't wanna scoop any findings, but but partner acceptance, Will be a helpful thing in relationships.
And we also know in contrast that people who experience that their partners are dissatisfied about the way they look or who experience their partners as being encouraging of them to seek things like cosmetic treatments are more likely to do so. Such great stuff. I could go on and on Rachel, with this, is there anything else you feel like we should know about this topic?
Yeah, I guess a couple of thoughts. One of [00:24:00] them is that while we do all live in this culture, there are ways in which we can choose to expose ourselves to certain things or not, and that therefore you've mentioned mindfulness several times, and I think it's so relevant and cultivating a mindfulness of how we react to certain things such as, Different types of media content, different types of social settings, and therefore using that to guide how we interact with the world is a helpful practice.
We, we are not endlessly resilient and therefore being aware of how we are reacting to things and choosing to protectively filter what we expose ourselves to is, is a very important thing. The, the counterpart of that is that we also. Create culture, we contribute to it. Yes. And we not powerless and therefore If, [00:25:00] if we are indeed resistant to appearance ideals and believe that society is mistaken in placing such an important emphasis on people's appearance as part of their self-worth, that is a message we can relay and we can do that through our interactions in our family settings, but we can also do it in other ways if we see practices in our local.
Community in the Wellbeing Center, for example, that are emphasizing appearance and performance in ways that we think are not embodied. Maybe that's something we can provide feedback about. Yes, maybe we can show up on social media in ways that are. Diversifying the types of bodies that we see. Maybe if we have a high profile position, we can be visibly comfortable with our aging appearance.
Maybe if we have a podcast we can use that threading the message all of these ways. I love that. This is like, [00:26:00] it's hitting all the notes of what I want to accomplish with this project in terms of being aware of ourselves, being aware of our authenticity and making those small ripples that we can, those small changes outside of ourselves that shape our culture and make our smaller communities, and hopefully community by community healthier
all right. I, there's so much to think about and digest. I know I'll be listening to this episode a few times myself. I know everybody listening here is very thankful for Rachel's work , and I look forward to sharing this episode with as many people as I possibly can.
So thank you. It was absolutely my pleasure. Thank you for having me and for talking about this important topic as we bring this episode on body image and midlife to a close. I really wanna extend my heartfelt appreciation to Rachel Rogers for her insightful contribution. I [00:27:00] sincerely hope that our discussion has sparked a shift in how we perceive ourselves and understand the influence of society and others on our body image.
It was a great reminder for me that I'm on a journey of self-acceptance and growth, and it's okay to embrace where I'm at today. Let's continue to challenge societal norms and celebrate diversity in cultivating a positive and accepting environment. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode.
Until then, keep exploring, stay curious, and stay true to yourself.