#9 Midlife Sex and Relationships: Communicate, Connect and Enjoy

In this episode, renowned sex and relationship therapist Dr. Catalina Lawsin dives into the complexities of midlife sex and relationships. First Dr. Catalina explores the challenges faced during midlife, including hormonal changes, body image issues, and shifting dynamics.  Dr. Catalina then provides strategies to enhance intimacy, communication, and sexual exploration. Discover the importance of pleasure, open communication, and embracing body changes to revitalize your sexual journey in midlife. 

Throughout this episode, Dr. Catalina encourages us to recognize the significance of good sex in midlife as a normal and vital aspect of life satisfaction, challenging societal norms that hinder open discussions about sexuality. Dr. Catalina's insights highlight how sexual fulfillment intertwines with overall well-being, extending beyond a separate aspect of life. Break free from outdated beliefs, celebrate the importance of good sex, and embrace its positive impact on our lives as we navigate through midlife and beyond.


Keywords:

Midlife relationships, sexual exploration, intimacy, communication, body changes, hormonal changes, self-pleasure, open communication, societal norms, sex and relationship therapy, sexual journey, midlife challenges, sexual evolution, empowering relationships, intimacy.

Transcript

Welcome to Gen X Mindscape, the podcast dedicated to exploring the complexities of midlife and the pursuit of a purposeful life. I'm your host, and fellow Gen Xer, Kyle, here to accompany you on this journey.

Midlife is a phase of life that brings with it a multitude of changes and transformations. It's a time of reflection, growth, and rediscovery. And amidst all these shifts, our sexual and intimate connections are no exception. In this episode, renowned relationship and sex therapist Dr. Catalina encourages us to recognize the significance of good sex in midlife as a normal and vital aspect of life satisfaction, challenging societal norms that hinder open discussions about sexuality. In the first part of our conversation, Dr. Catalina and I discuss the challenges faced by individuals and couples during midlife, including hormonal changes, body image issues, and shifting relationship dynamics. In the second part of this episode, Dr. Lawson shares invaluable strategies to enhance intimacy, communication, and sexual exploration in midlife. I am excited to share this episode with you, so let’s get to it!

Today’s guest is Dr. Catalina Lawsin, PhD, aka "The Intimacy Doc" - a licensed psychologist, professor, and researcher with a passion for authentic connections and genuine intimacy. With over 23 years of experience, she fearlessly advocates for breaking free from societal expectations and embracing our primal needs and desires. Dr. Catalina's recent article in USA Today about aging and sexuality was very insightful and perfectly aligned with the focus of my podcast. You can find her @TheIntimacyDoc on TikTok, IG, or visit TheIntimacyDoc.com 


Kyle: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast Dr. Catalina. So happy you're here. Thanks so much for having me. Yes. Uh, as I've said a number of times, I'm so excited for this, , interview and, and talking with you.
Could you start by just giving us some personal background and , how you came to be a podcast guest on midlife sexuality? Absolutely. So for the last, over a few decades, my specialty as a professor and researcher was in psych oncology.
So I developed interventions to support couples, , move through things like bone marrow transplant, as well as address sexual concerns after cancer. Wow. , and so through that work, I really predominantly was working with individuals in midlife. , and obviously not only were the physical. Of cancer, um, happening, but also just midlife in general and how our bodies changed for both women and men.
Um, and.
And [00:01:00] really delved even further into addressing sexist relationships and do predominantly work with individuals in midlife who are wanting to reclaim that intimacy in their relationships. And, um, very much working a lot with particularly women post-menopausal men with prostate cancer, but also with chronic pain.
Ms. There's all these physical stressors that are just naturally happening that we don't talk enough about, and particularly outside of the context of it just being a chronic illness, um, but then the layer of chronic illness there, as well as a lot of the so psychosocial things that just change as we develop.
And a lot people, particularly in midlife, I'm loving. In general, we're finally paying attention to it, and a lot of why we're paying attention to it is, is because like people like Oprah and Drew Barry Moore are [00:02:00] in midlife now and experiencing these changes and finally forcing the issue, particularly for women because when we look at women's health versus men's health and the amount of care and research that has actually been put into it.
Particularly around sexual intimacy, the physicality of it. This idea of pleasure really is a new concept. Um, and we're talking about it. I'm talking about it. Um, really acknowledging our privileges being in the states where, you know, we think, oh, we're so progressive and we talk more about pleasure and sex when that's minority, you know, and outside.
Breaking down a lot of these barriers, and particularly as a woman of color, um, and [00:03:00] empowering other women of colors to really assert and men to really assert what we actually need, want and desire to own that. Expand it. Explore it. That's, that's what basically a lot of my work has. Kind of folded into, so I see people in my private practice, I do coaching programs.
I give a lot of talks, all really trying to, the more we talk about this, the more we normalize it and the more we normalize it, the more our bodies feel safe to actually get curious. It's from curiosity that we expand. I'm laughing because that was so fabulous, these are things we need to talk about and realize they're normal to embrace ourselves and advocate for ourselves.
Could you start by telling us some of the misconceptions that you see, in mid midlife?
Well, the biggest misperception about midlife is, is that just sex isn't important anymore. You had fun in your twenties, so sex doesn't really matter. Like, and particularly if you're in a long-term relationship, well, you [00:04:00] know, you guys are stable, you're secure, and sex doesn't, isn't a priority. And if it is, what's wrong with you?
You know? Um, I think that's the one of the biggest. Is is, which is really ironic because we actually know that.
Gain so much more awareness, confidence, and willingness to assert what it is they need, want and desire. Yes. Which is also now they, there's been more social acceptability around that. And so this is also why women are leading divorce, um, and saying, you know what, no longer am I going to settle, no longer am I gonna, and it's not just when we talk about sex, I think one of the biggest things that.
People wanna talk about like frequency and positions and things like that, which is all great, that's all that, that's fun. But none of it really matters. Uh, if outside the [00:05:00] bedroom, a person doesn't feel empowered, doesn't feel sexy, doesn't feel connected, doesn't feel like what her needs or his needs, wants, and desires actually matter.
You know, so, so much of, I think when we talk about. Sex in midlife. It's, it's also, it's appreciating that our bodies do change, you know, um, testosterone levels go down, stress, estrogen levels go down, and those are inherent in that. Like we, we can cognitively get it. But then experientially, what does that mean?
It means our energy levels are down. It means our emotions are a more of a rollercoaster and
moment to experience. Isn't as, isn't as steady and, and our bodies basically trying to hit us of saying, Hey, hey, hey, I'm something, and take more of our capacity and demand more nurturing, [00:06:00] but. Also, particularly midlife, we're talking about generations, particularly Gen X, where we weren't taught like, like I love working with people in their early twenties.
They feel so empowered, their mental health and their emotional self-care. All of that is ingrained. There's an entitlement to it. But when you talk to Midlifers, gen Xers, We're, this is new. We actually had to do a lot, um, and go to a lot of, like, pay a lot of money to, and, and that is a very small amount of people to actually experience what most people consider self-care.
And so this is a whole paradigm shift where our bodies are demanding this, but then we actually psychologically have to adapt to it, you know, and actually think we deserve it. Um, and so, so much I also think is a mis misconception around aging is, is that, well, you just have to accept it. You just have to accept that your body does this and that [00:07:00] if you, your hormone levels do decrease.
Well, that's just part of aging. When that actually isn't the case. I think the biggest part of this is particularly women and getting hormone therapy. You know, there was one of the worst things that medicine did was for several decades say, oh, there's a higher risk of breast cancer or other types of cancers if you do hormone treatment when you do hit perimenopause and menopause.
And that's actually been completely challenged and there's so many opportunities there for. With hormones so that it isn't such like a slam in the face for women. And, and when we address women's health, we are addressing men's health too, you know? Um, and I think that that's important. So I think one, the assumptions that sex is an important, and two, that our bodies just, this is what aging has to look like.
I think that those are, We all need to challenge if [00:08:00] we get to challenge, but we also that in challenging it means we have to advocate for ourselves and then put pressure on the system. You know, so much of this is because like it's really hard to find an ob gyn and a urologist who is going to address sexual concerns because they're not trained in that.
Like, it's, it's shocking. I've done a lot of talks and assess, particularly ob GYNs of what have you learned about sexual wellbeing? What have you learned about sexual, um, sexual function and libido and desire and how that changes? And there's, there's not, there's no formal training in, in residency, in fellowship.
And so when women, you know, who are you supposed to talk to about this? Of course you. When the reality is, is that even I'm in LA and I work with people in Chicago and New York, there's very few specialists who actually know how to address this, that no wonder [00:09:00] even in your largest cities, If they can't get help there, where are they supposed to go?
So where do they end up going? The internet. Um, and, and there's just a lot of misogynistic and really poor, um, stuff out there, you know, that just, you know, different. There's a lot of benefit in alternative medicines, but there's just a lot more marketing Yeah. Around things that are just gonna be quick fixes rather than a holistic lifestyle, uh, treatments.
You know, and I do think that as we go into midlife, this is a developmental change that really needs to be embraced as that, as this, this period. That one, there is no rush. Even though people want to be like, I, everyone wants it to be how it was before. Yeah. Rather than embracing what it is now. And that makes sense.
All of our culture is focused on being young, being, being fresh [00:10:00] in energy, and particularly when it comes to sex, that's only for the young, you know? So yeah. I love your perspective on, it's really as an extension of yourself, , it's not just this separate part, it, like you said in the beginning, it's uh, it's learning from your past.
It's accepting what is, it's accepting who you are, but yet moving forward from that knowledge and that base to really. Flourish . At least, , in all aspects. Absolutely. In the bedroom is definitely a part of that. That shouldn't just be this blah on the side. Right? Absolutely.
I mean, I, I started and will reboot my podcast calling that's named Sex Marks a spot. And so much of my research, and I am working on a TED talk on it, but like is, is the centrality of our sexual wellbeing. Sexual satisfaction has been shown to be such a strong indicator of overall wellbeing, physical, mental, and overall quality of life, and yet it's never assessed.
But if we ask people one question, [00:11:00] how sexually satisfied are you? One that normalizes that it matters. And, and then it, and when you think about what, what it would be like if your physician asked you that, that opens this whole other door into actually holistically getting to know you, holistically assessing.
What are your relationships like? How, how confident and empowered are you feeling to make health decisions? Because those same health decisions and like when we want people to be assertive with their bodies, that translates absolutely in every day. How assertive are you at work? How assertive are you with your family?
How assertive are you with your, with your, with your kids, and all of these things? Things that happen outside of the bedroom absolutely impact us inside the bedroom. And one of the things that I think is really important when we look at sexual wellbeing, and particularly we know that midlifers and beyond are the, they're gonna be the larger users of [00:12:00] healthcare.
Mm-hmm. Because this is when chronic illnesses start hap popping up. That's right. And. Knowing that we have to look at the systemic factors that unfortunately are hindering, you know, and that's why it's just hindering people from actually getting multidisciplinary care, you know? And so, so much of this is, is really heightening awareness that it exists.
It's been existing for a long time, like in. Literally for the last 15, 20 years, there's been guidelines of how can we provide both psychological, physical, and, and medical support, right? And incorporate PT, nutrition, and all of these things. It's mandated, and yet so many cancer survivors still, or cancer patients still don't know these services exist.
Insurance doesn't cover. A lot of these services. And that's, so it's talking also acknowledging that, particularly in the states, how many systemic barriers there are that inhibit, [00:13:00] you know, so much of our sexual wellbeing and particularly in midlife to actually be supported. You know, so, so, so what happens?
People aren't going to think if they know that they, there's no help. Why even, why even get it assessed if there's nothing you can do? Then why even bother? Right. Right. And if nobody's asking, so there's less likely for it to to come up as well. Absolutely. I hear one word you're saying a lot is assertiveness.
Yeah, I say a lot. I say it a lot. Well, but I, I love the way that you're saying it. Um, you know, , , it, it does, it goes across all aspects of yourself, um, uh, in the bedroom and in your, at your job and in your relationships. It's something that's necessary and, you know, contributes to that.
You're getting your needs met. Absolutely. Well, and I teach my clients three things, three steps. Um, acknowledge, empathize, assert, acknowledging what comes up in our [00:14:00] body, what's happening, what sensations are we experiencing, because those sensations are emotions. And all emotions are, are memories from the past that our body has developed physiological reactions to that we experience over and over.
This is why pain, hurt, anger, frustration. Feels the same. And in turn we have the same ensuing behavioral reactions. We get mad, we cry, all of those. So when we begin to first notice and acknowledge these, then we can begin to actually empathize, understand, well, yeah, that makes sense. Like what, where is this coming from?
And also, what am I doing now to begin to nurture that? So that then we can assert what does my body need or want right now that I can give it and when, and generally it's just breath, sound, or movement. Those are the three ways our body wants to process emotion. And when we, and it's already doing something like it's already clinching.
So when we exaggerate that, [00:15:00] Or when we are already breathing heavy, when we take deeper breaths, when we give our body an opportunity to actually process that emotion in the moment and assert that need or want, that builds our body's trust that, hey, you're gonna take care of me. And then it's going to start trusting your choices so that when we then apply that same process to Wait a second, what do I need for, I'm having hot flashes all the time.
What do I need for this? Who can I go to? We can start to make, listen to our bodies and make more conscious aligned choices that we can then assert. So much of this, when I talk about assertiveness is, is alignment. Our bodies wanna take action. That's what's empowering. It needs to take action. And I think that's the thing is, is that so many people, particularly in midlife and particularly in Gen X, um, so much of how we were raised [00:16:00] was to suck it up, stay stuck.
If you don't, if you don't knuckle through, if you don't, it.
It's actually a bit hard because particularly like, and they're beyond midlife, but thinking about boomers, they get criticized for it, you know? Um, and so it's, it's, it's really nurturing that and understanding, well, shit, we've been trained to be like this for over 40 years, and now our bodies are saying, Like, wait, and then you're seeing in social media all of these things that basically just make self care like, oh, it's just so easy.
You know? And if, and just all you have to do is go to a yoga class or just do this breathing, which every single one of those is a choice that someone needs to assert and to get there mm-hmm. Requires so many different steps that I think one of the biggest things that I hope your listeners. [00:17:00] Really can appreciate is, is have compassion.
Because so many of the things that, particularly in social media are just said, do this, do that are quite, they're, every single one of them are actions that require a change. Yeah. And our body doesn't wanna change because the way it's been has been felt really safe. Even if it's been really uncomfortable.
Yeah, that's right. And I bet you run into a lot of people our age that. Um, becoming assertive is, is difficult for them. It's difficult to change. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, think about assertiveness is, is what do I need? What do I want and what can I do for it? You know, there's so many norms that have taught us what you need or want, doesn't matter.
You'll get rewarded and stay accepted when you curb your needs and wants to satisfy someone else. That's right. You know, humans are social beings. Acceptance is the number one thing that our bodies care about, and so, We're norms, we're socialized [00:18:00] to acquiesce, to put aside our needs and wants. And again, then you're a team player.
You're a good mother, you're a good dad, right? You're a good community member. So it's this healthy balance of where we can have interdependence. Without Codependence. Right. I love that because, you know, and it gets me thinking about relationships as well, you know? Yeah. A lot of us, the relationship is a big part of it, as you've said already, and as you said in your article.
Can you tell us a little bit about how relationships , in our age change and some of the factors that we should really be thinking about? Absolutely. When you think about midlife, this is generally the time when people start getting divorced, you know, um, particularly in our generation where a lot of people got married in their twenties.
Now their kids are done with high school. That's the, that's the pattern. And, and once the focus isn't on just taking care of kids, then. Well now what? You have to take care of yourself. Now what are we gonna do? You know? And one of the things that what you see [00:19:00] happens is, is that it does not take long at all for our bodies to just learn to be with another, and relationship dynamics form very quickly, right?
We choose our partners for a reason and then. That sa, those same things, those can be pros and cons that like create just the relationship dynamic and that becomes incredibly sticky. But we just talked about all these changes that happen in midlife as we change, the relationship needs to change. It needs.
Again, that's change. And our body isn't gonna wanna do it. And the thing in relationships is that it's a dynamic. It takes two. And so often what you're seeing is, is that one person will have some kind of change and that disrupts the system. And then there's a mismatch. And one of the biggest things, most common things is, is that there's a mismatch in libido.
One person starts losing interest [00:20:00] in sex and, and that's the number ones.
Oftentimes it takes couples several years to ever look for support for addressing this. You know, and so one, my number one thing I tell people is, is that, well, if you've been in a long-term relationship, expect that there's gonna be a point where there is a mismatch where one person wants less or more than you do, and that that is absolutely natural and that it doesn't have to stay that way.
The relationship is demanding. Some shift and, and that requires both people, you know. Both people don't typically come to the table at the same time. And so you start with one. And that person who is one, is the person who identifies as it's a problem. Mm-hmm. I'm a big believer of, in relationships, it's who ever shit stinks less.
They're the grounder. They're gonna be the initiator. Right. Because this idea of it's always gonna be 50 50, it's always [00:21:00] reciprocal. It's just not realistic. Right, right. And it's actually leveraging that commitment, that love leaning in on that. And saying, you know what? Right now I, I can, I have the capacity.
My shit doesn't stink as much, and so I'm gonna feel this, I'm gonna initiate that, right? Because so much of when there is this mismatch, when there is that imbalance in relationships, man, that festers resentment. , when I think about resentment, so much of when we think about that, it's a resentment that our partners are doing this, they're doing this. When all I. We are upset at ourselves for doing something we don't want to do, for settling for something that we don't wanna, for agreeing or acquiescing, we resent ourselves.
And so that's where, again, it always comes back to control what you can control. Right? Right. And that is only ourselves rather than projected on [00:22:00] our partner. Exactly. I'd like to stay on that topic. Um, you said that, uh, mismatched libido is probably the most common presenting, and I'm sure there's a lot of considerations for both sides of that.
Can you tell our audience a little bit about, you know, where to go from that, or ways to have that conversation and, well, first is, is absolutely like one, acknowledging it with compassion. So much of when there is a mismatched libido, it is pathologizing the person who no longer wants sex, right?
Saying You are the problem. What is wrong with you? We used to have great sex. You must be depressed. Or it's all about you. It's all about you. And. Well that's, that's gonna make someone wanna come to the table and feel safe. Right? Exactly. And so I'm a big believer of stop blaming your partner because like, who wants to come to a party if the party sucks?
You know? Um, and so the first is, is really acknowledging it, [00:23:00] trying to understand and for the person who has experienced the shift, whether that, and again, that shift can also be that one person's drive has gotten. Two, but who, where whoever's experienced the shift, what shifted for them? What's happening?
Get curious because likely now there's just new needs or wants. How can the relationships support that within the boundaries? And this is the thing is, is that I think in relationships, We come in them with, well, this is what we want. And, and I say that, but most people actually don't talk about what do we, what do we believe in?
What are we going to that, what do we share in our values around sex and around how we treat each other? How are we going to take care of our relationship? But all of those, if you want, if you didn't do 'em, then in midlife, it's really important to renegotiate those. Check in. Where are we now? What do we actually, what works for us now in the relationship?
How much time do we need from each [00:24:00] other or want with each other? Mm-hmm. And then that transcends into what are your needs, wants and desires in the bedroom, and how can that be met? Now, acknowledging rather than pathologizing the physical and emotional changes. Because I think the other thing to keep in mind is, as in midlife, yes, is it's also the time where, particularly in your forties and and fifties where people are hard charging on their career too, you know, they generally are, have more responsibilities and so on top of any caregiving.
But then on top of the caregiving of children also, now there's the caregiving of parents and. Across the board. And where does that, A lot of that, we know the burden often goes more to women. Yep, yep. Right. It sure does. And so going back to your earlier question of also what's one of the assumptions around mismatched libido, the assumption is, is that it's generally the woman who has less desire.
Hmm. And I'll just [00:25:00] say that a lot of that research is becoming challenged as women. Uh, we know that more educated, more professional women are, are more sexually assertive and that the norms have changed. We assumed that women just didn't want it, but what they didn't want was they didn't want shitty sex.
Um, you know, and so like, again, like I think the biggest things with pandemic. You're not gonna get ready and go out and make all these efforts if you're knowing it's not gonna be that fun. And so we know when we think about desire is, is that desire can be responsive or spontaneous, and our brains need to be open to there being a reason for sex.
But in long-term relationship, it really doesn't take very long for that sexual script to become, Hey, I'm in the mood someone has, and I'm talking about hetero predominantly, but this is across all types of orientations and couples. Is is that next thing you [00:26:00] know? It's, oh, I'm in the mood. There's a little kissing regularly, not foreplay, and then you just go straight to intercourse and then maybe if you're lucky it's five minutes.
Well that, who the hell wants to keep around for that party? It's a shitty party. Let's just keep it real. But that's actually the majority of sex that's happening out there. And you know, why would you get excited for that? Exactly, when we're this age, we have our, our patterns , but it's really now saying, oh, Okay, now I'll get a chance to think about what I really want and what I really want this to look like now that I'm in a different, we're in a different phase and that sounds really like what you're advocating, um, your clients and for people to do is to rethink it, to communicate and really grow from your own experience and, and be open to exploring and making the most of what we have now.
Absolutely. You know, a lot of my work is informed by my own tan practice and one of the things that I've always admired is, is that like you look at Tantra, you look at sex positive spaces more [00:27:00] B D S M, and the cool thing is, is that that demographic is generally midlife and beyond and, and it's actually, I think it's great because the cool thing about midlife is we also have fricking earned the right to be like, Oh, actually, who gives a fuck?
You know, like amidst the generation X, but like this whole idea that. We've put up with a lot. We've had to like do a lot of things. So, and at this point, that built up our confidence. That built up like, well, you know what?
I can tolerate a lot and I'm going to assert my own needs and wants and desires. That's right. So when it comes to sexuality, Who gives a shit anymore? Like, right, like, I mean, it's what you wanna do with your body. It absolutely is your choice at this point. And the good thing about midlife is that people aren't worrying about pregnancy.
 . But I do think that that's one of the things that in midlife, we get, we get privilege to. [00:28:00] Those, whatever, those norms that dictated how I had to live sexually in my twenties as a woman and a man acknowledging again, so much.
Um, as a woman, I do think it's important to very much acknowledge the pressure that we put on men to perform. Okay. Um, while also supporting that and saying teaching women how to, how to. Know that, you know, these sexual scripts of just having intercourse and a man maintaining an erection that whole time as we age, this is where it's learning to shift up the repertoire, shift up that script that allows for things to go up and down, literally like and physically.
Right. Right. Um, and that, that actually sexual experience, you know, And it's acknowledging that you know so much around erections and orgasm. Those, [00:29:00] those have been ways that communicate. I'm turned on. I find you attractive. Those are validating, um, indicators that our bodies have learned and they don't have to be.
They, there's other ways that we could communicate and stay connected, and the more we focus and explore those one, we actually see, we see tumescent expanding. Um, men can experience internal orgasms. They can experience multiple orgasms and the experience. Yeah. Yeah. We're beyond shitty sex here, it sounds like, basically, right?
Like and it's demanding that. Yeah, it's, it's saying, wait a second. Why do that? Like, yeah. We particularly like when you look at like how much craft food there is, how many different food flavors of a green juice there are. We can be go to Starbucks and see all the flavors. When it comes to [00:30:00] sex, okay, I'll take five minutes.
It'll be a missionary and it doesn't matter if there's any kind of any kind of workup or foreplay or anything like literally our Starbucks orders are more, more exploratory than most people's sexual routine. Right. Um, and, and it's like, what the fuck? Like, it doesn't have to be like that. Exactly. Right.
So, so if we can here, help us transform a little bit. What are some of the key things that couples need to know or do you know, to move, move towards that? So first I always say explore self pleasure is the best pleasure. First, find out, like start exploring with yourself. And yes, that can include masturbation, but it also includes how does your body like to move when you dance or when you get massages.
What start, what as actually brings your body pleasure because again, when we think about sexual our body,[00:31:00] 
First to heighten our openness to actually want to engage in any sexual activity. So then from that comes arousal, which then promotes more sexual activity. And so, so much of it is, is first starting from your yourself, listening, going back to what we talked about assertiveness, listening to what does your body need and want.
On Emily Nago, um, who wrote, come As You Are, is, does a really, I love her. Her line of pleasure is the measure follow pleasure, right? Acknowledge shittiness from the past and say no more. Follow pleasure. And while doing that, know that particularly with women, that our body is going, may get triggered. While that that pleasure because it's gonna be like don't.
Right, and it's nurturing. And, and, and [00:32:00] becoming more playful with it. You know, starting slow. And so doing things like, obviously not only masturbation, but like I said, playing with, getting different massages, playing with different textures. There's, um, pleasure mapping that you can do with yourself or with your partner where you go throughout your whole body and you bring out different things like
chocolates. Pressures of feeling things on your body. What actually, and, and again, and not just focusing on the genitals, we have a whole body, you know, engaging all of our five senses of different tastes and smells and not just our visuals. So I really encourage people to do things blindfolded, where we begin to really explore our sensations.
One, particularly if the sex has gotten dull by midlife. Really focusing, and one, acknowledging that this does not have to [00:33:00] be a simultaneous experience, um, that one person can give, one person can receive pleasure and actually playing with that, and that the person who's giving pleasure. Their focus should be on how does it feel?
How does my body feel? How am I getting around? By giving this pleasure focusing, if everyone focuses on their sensations that promotes and expands that sexual energy, I. And so, so much of it is, is starting with yourself when you're ready, inviting in your partner, and then through that beginning to going back to how we process emotions, breath, sound, movement, use your body, communicate.
Use, give like thumbs ups, talk about what feels good. I recommend that debriefs be after and outside of the bedroom, but start talking about what worked, what didn't work? What do you see? Really do see sex as something, how that, just [00:34:00] like every other activity that we get into, if you want it to get better, you are gonna wanna explore what worked and what didn't, right?
And, and normalize that. You know, the more we normalize it, the more, the only reason people don't talk during sex or after sex is because they're worried they're gonna say something. Their partner's gonna be offended by that. They're gonna feel rejected or judged. And so that's where it's really acknowledging and really creating a safe environment for this.
And that's why so much of the work in promoting. You know, exploration in the bedroom starts outside the bedroom and really starting to have some of these conversations where you talk about your needs, wants and desires. And for couples who already didn't talk about that, it's starting with it outside around of sex, talking about, well, I want to eat this tonight because this is what I'm in the mood for and this is what this feels like or I on this trip because,[00:35:00] 
Across all of these different avenue parts of our lives, the more we're gonna do it in the bedroom, our body needs to build up that trust that that is okay. Yeah, I love that. I absolutely love that. It makes so much sense too. You know, like we enjoy going out to a , fine meal, and what do we do?
We talk about it. What did we like, what do we not like? What did we. What would we wanna do again there or a movie? You know, we break it down and how did we feel during this part? And, you know, there's no reason that sex can't be the same. It's a, it's a part of our lives. It's an important part of our lives.
I, I love that perspective. I. Well, absolutely. You know, so many couples come to therapy and say, we really need to work on our communication yet, I mean, seriously, some of these people can be like public speakers and like managers and directors, and I'm like, it's, you know how you just don't know how to talk relationally when this, when I, you [00:36:00] do this, I feel this.
And that's the biggest difference. So it's actually becoming and when, because we do talk about, oh, the food and what we're doing, because that's not the other person. Yeah. Remembering that it's the relational component that our bodies are most threatened by. And so it's acknowledging that because you actually have the communication skills, now you just have to actually bring it into the relationship.
 What, what are some roadblocks people might run into, um, along the way? Getting triggered because the past always comes up like, and as much as couples are like, oh, let's do this, let's do this, it is acknowledging that those dynamics have been there for a reason.
And again, and those dynamics when you, particularly when you begin to talk about like how attachment very much. Those really need to be nurtured along the way. [00:37:00] Right? And so what will often happen is, is that couples will come into therapy and they'll be like, Ugh. You know, they'll get a lot of relief of, finally I get to talk about this.
But then, and, and it's an understanding of, okay, yeah, now we wanna know. Now we know. And so now we're gonna do something. But it's appreciating that one. Now you do know now it has been talked about. And so your body can't unknow that. Mm-hmm. Um, and so while un, while your body wants to unknow it, that's where all of those past things that have supported the unknowing may come up.
Right. And so, So much of this is, is I tell patients they need to have, their body wants control, predictability and consistency for long-term change. And so it is appreciating, this is not a linear process. Mm-hmm. It is appreciating that when you hit these roadblocks, one anticipated that that's normal and it is how you move through it.
Beyond it that matters. It does not matter. If [00:38:00] it happens, it's gonna, it's more, okay, now what do you wanna do with it now? And the more you get to have more of those reparative, expansive, shared experiences, God, then that brings the relationship to a whole new level. Yeah. And I think the one, the biggest thing when we talk about relationships and sex and midlife is, is again, gosh, this is an opportunity.
For you to, you get to create it. We get to co-create relationships to be exactly what we want 'em to be. Yeah. Yes. And open communication and acceptance is huge there, isn't it? Yeah. We have covered so many great things, what else do you want us to know...
 well, I mean, I think the biggest thing that.
Is really important to highlight, and I know we've talked about it, but is really to appreciate how much of our bodies physically change and how embedded in that, how we see ourselves and how we see our partners also changes. It is normalizing [00:39:00] that. It is normalizing how much body image, you know, while, like earlier we talked about how man, now we're much more confident.
Let's just also keep it real like as we age and shit gets saggy and we, we don't have as much energy, we're forced.
You know, um, and that's also where new insecurities that we thought we got over in our twenties may pop up, you know, and, and it's, it's nurturing those, right? And particularly like when our hormones are changing so dramatically, the emotional toll of that change, I think really needs to be nurtured. You know?
And so it's appreciating that. That there's all of these things happening and colliding at once. Um, that, that's a lot to cope with, and that's our [00:40:00] perceptions of ourselves. Again, we get to check in and figure out, okay, what is working? What, how do I want to see myself now? What needs to shift? What do I want to shift?
You know? And I think reminding ourselves that. First foremost, it is okay to feel like that. Really, on one hand, I feel like when we talked about things like menopause or erectile dysfunction and natural things that happen, yes, we're normalizing it, but too often this toxic positivity of well, but you can fix it.
And now look at Jane Fonda. She's like 80 something, and look at how great she's appreciating. Everyone's path through this looks very different. And the majority of shittiness that people experience is alone and silent. Like people don't see that, you know, and I think physiologically how our bodies are changing, um, [00:41:00] your partner sees you every day.
They're not gonna notice the nuances that your experience experiencing on daily, appreciating that, you know, um, Really seeing, seeing midlife as an opportunity that, and normalizing that, Hey, actually this is a good time to check in. What are you liking? What did all those have? Toss and shoulds? Mm-hmm.
What would it be like if instead it was, what do I want? What do I desire? That's right. Mm-hmm. You know, and I think, um, those messages that we get. Conventional beauty, I think is another term that I think just, you know, we're just inundated with conventional beauty, which I just think throws us so off as it relates to body image and our sexuality.
Oh, absolutely. Well, and particularly when you put in, like when we think about sexuality, [00:42:00] particularly amongst marginalized communities and particularly people of color, that's where another thing of 'cause the norm of what's conventional is, is white. It's white, it is fair skinned. I. It's, I was just in Sweden and, and it was like, damn, everyone's so good looking.
I'm like, well, it's because everyone's fucking white and six feet tall. You know, like, like, I mean, that's the norm. But then when you put around it, particularly when we're talking about sexuality for, for people of color, particularly women of color, Like, there's also what's too sexy or what's too slutty.
Mm-hmm. There's absolutely racial, um, components there that get overlaid on that where you don't wanna be that, or maybe you do wanna be that. Right. That there's just inherent in a lot of those norms. And, and I think that so much of that is, is really in midlife [00:43:00] figuring out one. Spreading the awareness.
Like if you look at even like how, where the majority of sex research and relationship research, who's doing that? Older white men. Yeah
That's the other thing is the majority of research on sex is done on college students. Yeah. Like, you know, I mean, and there just hasn't been as much, I mean, N NIH hasn't funded like extensively sex research in a long time. Mm-hmm. A lot of these things, studies are, the reason there aren't in college students is because they're free subjects.
Then you have a student running the, running the study, you. So it's appreciating that what we are learning about sexuality is growing. Um, but then it's also knowing that like where the priorities in our, in our healthcare and research. Aren't necessarily following that demand, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but, but definitely those norms of what beauty are and how someone should appear sexually.
This [00:44:00] is where so many women of color are hypersexualized as an Asian. Absolutely. Like the, the amount of hypersexualization, I mean, that's what fostered Atlanta. And all the killing's there, and it is acknowledging that when we go back to assertiveness, the number one thing our bodies need to feel to assert is safe, and when we live in a world that constantly is not safe.
Mm-hmm. Then. You can be the most confident person and have so much success, but you can walk out your door and your body can be threatened. And particularly for women, that is absolutely the reality. You know, like absolutely. I've lived, me personally, like I've lived in New York, DC, Chicago, and the most threatened I have been chased and followed and called Chinese Horror here in Santa Monica, California, in this small beach town.[00:45:00] 
And And why did that happen? Because of all the whole Chinese virus, like all of this Asian hate was the most intense I've ever experienced it. You know? And those are realities I night. So, so much of when we talk about these norms, it's really appreciating also the social climate in which people are existing.
Again, how we feel safe outside the bedroom Yeah. Impacts how we are going to feel safe inside. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a super important point and, and so thank you for bringing that up. Yeah. No, for sure. Well, this has been fabulous. This really has been enlightening and something that I really will go back and listen to and talk with others about, and it's been really incredible, uh, having this time with you. So I appreciate your generosity with your time. Well, thank you so much for actually, really one for your podcast in general and to creating this space where we can talk about these things.
You know, they, it hasn't always [00:46:00] existed, so it's great that you're doing this and dedicated, continuing on with this. And, um, people like you are inspiring to keep going with it. 'cause I think this will help a lot of people, including myself. So, yeah, hopefully so. For sure. Before we head out, if people wanna get in touch with you tell us again where they can find you.
 Absolutely. So I'm the only Catalina Lawson, s i n in the world. Um, because, so I'm pretty Googleable. Um, but you can follow me on TikTok or Instagram at the Intimacy doc, or you can go to my website, the intimacy.com and reach out, you know, if there's any support I can provide directly, feel free.
I do therapy in California, Illinois. A lot of coaching programs that specifically deal with sexist relationships and for individuals as well as couples. And so there's, and if I can't help you, I'm always happy to answer questions and refer you to people who can. Wonderful. I'm so happy to hear that. 
So once again, thank you Dr. Catalina. [00:47:00] And, thank you so much for your valuable time and your insights. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks so much for having me again, Kyle.
Closing: I hope you found our conversation with Dr. Catalina Lawsin as captivating and enlightening as I did. As we navigate through the uncharted waters of midlife, let's challenge societal norms and embrace the importance of good sex as a normal and healthy aspect of life satisfaction. Dr. Catalina's wisdom reminds us that sexual fulfillment is interconnected with our overall well-being and plays a significant role in our midlife flourishing.

Thanks so much for listening today.  If you enjoyed this episode, I’d be very grateful if you would subscribe and share it with your friends who might also find today’s discussion helpful. So, until next time, keep exploring, stay curious, and stay true to yourself.