#14 Unlocking Midlife's Potential: Flourishing with Dr. Amy Evans

I am excited to share my conversation with Dr. Amy Evans with you.  In this episode, we discuss the influential theories of midlife developmental psychology and how we can use them towards the goal of midlife flourishing.  We talk about navigating personality and relational shifts and how being cognizant of these changes can help us adjust our social circles and lifestyle choices to match our evolving selves. Retirement and second careers also come into view as we explore how to adapt healthily and maintain cognitive flexibility amidst these transitions. And, when faced with the unexpected, we discuss the importance of being prepared and ready to adjust. This episode is stacked with insight and practical tips - a great listen for anyone wanting to embrace midlife's potential.

More information about Amy:
https://www.bethel.edu/academics/faculty/amy-evans

Resources From Our Conversation:
https://brenebrown.com

Fostering Development in Midlife and Older Age

Values Card Sort:
https://motivationalinterviewing.org/sites/default/files/valuescardsort_0.pdf

If our discussion of Carl Rogers interested you:
Book How Listening Can Improve Relationships

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Glad to be here, Kyle.

Speaker 2: 0:02

Wonderful. Could you start by giving our listeners some insight in your background and how you became interested in the topics we'll be exploring today?

Speaker 1: 0:11

Sure. So a little background information. I've got a doctorate in counseling psychology from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. So I pursued that doctorate because through my undergrad and through my master's I just got more and more curious about things and then wanted to impart knowledge to counselors in particular.

Speaker 1: 0:30

So my focus at present is training counselors that with the program I teach and come in a variety of different developmental stages. So we might have students who start right out of undergrad and we at times certainly have students who start basically post-retirement. At times they're like, oh, I want to go back and do this.

Speaker 1: 0:52

So we have a broad range of students who come into our program. That's just fun and exciting. But I've been curious about development really since my own undergraduate degree, with that would have been the first time I was really exposed to the field of psychology and when I took my developmental psychology class I was just fascinated. And since then I just continue to really look into it At times have taught developmental psychology classes or development at the counselor level, so the master's level, teaching that or how to apply that in the counseling field. So I just love to continue to stay in it and pay attention to the details that are out there in the field. But I digress, I should probably stop babbling about those things.

Speaker 2: 1:40

Oh no, that was perfect. You are speaking my language and you're getting me fired up for our discussion. Amy, this is exactly why I started this, because I love talking to people like you and your interest in this midlife flourishing and midlife to human development area is just really self evident and contagious. So maybe this is a good chance for you to talk a little bit more about your perspective on midlife, based on your training in developmental psychology and human development.

Speaker 1: 2:09

So really, kyle, in the past the focus from developmental psychology in the field was on decline. For this stage of life it was all about what's going wrong in our bodies, like the fact that I have glasses on right now. I didn't have to wear these two years ago and now I have to when I'm sitting at a computer. So it's a big challenge, with so many things that do change in midlife, that the focus was so much on decline. I'm really thankful that the field has really shifted a lot towards growth at present. So realizing that development happens across life, not just when we're infants and children and adolescents, but development is happening throughout and that can be growth that is happening as well. Certainly in development there's losses that occur, but there's also gains that can occur. So that focus is really something that I appreciate in the field, that even through older age we can still develop as well.

Speaker 1: 3:13

The other thing I really appreciate about the developmental psych focus is that with the different types of development we might do like health development, social development, emotional development. There's so many different things that come into there. There's a multi-directional influence that happens. So realizing that is really key that if we do something to change our health that can impact our thinking, so our cognition, our social opportunities and abilities, depending on what our health was like emotional opportunities, spiritual, et cetera. So I think it's just really a great shift that's happened from that focus on decline to instead really the idea of flourishing.

Speaker 2: 4:00

Yeah, I love that and I hear you talking about it being kind of a web of wellness. Almost it's not, we're not in all these different areas of wellness, but they influence each other and kind of build this braided rope of, hopefully, strengths that come together and help us move forward.

Speaker 1: 4:16

Yes, I really like that description.

Speaker 2: 4:19

Oh wonderful, thank you, I think I just came up with that. Actually I still look from the literacy world, but that's the first time I've used it in this context. But enough about my ego. What are some kind of milestones or changes that happen in this midlife time in this study of developmental psychology?

Speaker 1: 4:43

Sure, so I'm gonna focus first on kind of some of the theorists that really are impactful within the field. So most people who have heard about developmental psychology or had a course in it at some point have probably heard about Eric Erickson. So his focus on healthy development I've always appreciated. It's one that stands out the most to me from my undergraduate education when I first started learning about development. Yet it's one that sometimes often gets forgotten in later adulthood. So the stage that really applies to this midlife period and depending who you ask, midlife could be 40, 45, up through 65, it really depends on who you ask before what the opinion is there, but that broad range.

Speaker 1: 5:33

Erickson would have talked about the idea of generativity versus stagnation. So that might be terminology people have heard before. So in this stage, this psycho social development is how he talked about it. Generativity is really what we want to aim for, that. So we want to figure out how we contribute to society, to our families, to our friend groups, to wherever we might be involved in the community church, different social organizations, so forth. So figuring out how we contribute to the world versus a stagnation. Really where people might struggle with that is that lack of purpose, not seeing their place, not really knowing how they can contribute.

Speaker 1: 6:20

So Erickson is certainly one a name that comes up that most people are familiar with.

Speaker 1: 6:26

Another one that not as many people are familiar with, surprisingly, is Robert Keegan, who is out of Harvard from quite a number of years ago.

Speaker 1: 6:35

But he talked about a stage model as well, and in this midlife stage what is happening for a lot of us is we might move from what he would call socialized mind to a self-authoring mind.

Speaker 1: 6:49

So when I came across this it was really fascinating to me that really the main difference in these two stages is what's most important to us, how we take our view. So, really, with the socialized mind which the majority of the population who are adults probably are in and stay in, which is okay but it's the looking at what's important to us from an external view, so how others see us, how we operate in the world, based on others' views, whereas the self-authoring mind, then, is this shift towards how we define ourselves Rather than external sources, really figuring out what do I value, what do I believe, what do I hold is true for myself. So I think that's a really lovely thing to think about here within this stage too, that that's what we want to move towards, rather than having the world around us define who we are, figuring out what we value and what we hold is true and figuring out how that fits for us internally rather than that external view.

Speaker 2: 8:02

Oh yes, I absolutely love that. I hadn't heard of that theory before, but it reminds me of an idea from existential psychotherapy that I heard recently, and that's the idea of an existential hero who, instead of just following societal norms, uses their internal compass to navigate life's big questions with a strong sense of purpose and morality. So midlife is a unique time when we think about all of these different areas in terms of our psychosocial development, moral development, determining our own values and authoring our lives in that way. So what are some of the key challenges that people experience during midlife that these would apply to?

Speaker 1: 8:48

There can be so many different challenges that we might encounter, but one that I wanted to highlight today with this conversation is the idea of happiness that there is in the research. It points to this U-curve that happens in the life, that you know in the 20s you know happiness is really high but that actually in the 40s it bottoms out.

Speaker 1: 9:16

But then thankfully it can start to go up in the 50s. So realizing that this happens and it is not universal Not everyone's going to have this bottom that happens in the 40s but realizing that this is part of what might come is helpful. So there's so many things going on, Depending on the individual. There can be, you know, kids in high school. Like I'm thinking of myself right now, I've got kids in high school also, one in college, one heading to college next year, but there's all of this. But then I've got aging parents in in-laws. There's the busyness that comes with this stage of life. Yet there's also in my life a little more freedom. That has come because I have kids who can drive.

Speaker 1: 10:36

So this is, it's a very busy time of life. So just realizing that, yes, that busiest and everything that comes within the 40s, depending on what is going on in your individual life, can really impact how we're doing psychologically. So just realizing that we have to pay attention to that and honestly acknowledging that there is this kind of the term middle essence is a term that's used rather than adolescence. Some people will talk about middle essence that in this point of life there are so many transitions. So someone who's in their 40s, moving into their 50s, is thinking about retirement but also, in some ways, starting to come to the reality of life's going to end.

Speaker 1: 11:25

So that traditional idea of a midlife crisis that people talk about, especially in the industrialized world, is that these transitions impact us and are ones that can be struggles. So if we have that awareness and are paying attention to that, then we can account for that in life to be able to manage those transitions effectively. We have way more ability at this stage, compared to the adolescent time period, to be able to deal with all the transitions that are coming our way.

Speaker 2: 11:59

That's right. It really all have such unique experiences. It's hard to you know, talk about one area across all people. Our listeners are in so many places with their kids, their parents, their jobs, their marriages or their partnerships, and so there's just so much diversity to this, the challenges and the rewards of this time of our lives, so there's no one answer. But what do we know from developmental psychology in terms of factors that we might want to focus on as we think about flourishing during midlife?

Speaker 1: 12:34

One of the biggest things that comes out of the research is really having a mindset shift. Rather than this idea again of decline that the field talked about for so many years, instead having this shift to the idea of flourishing, that it is possible to have flourishing in midlife and beyond. That is something that we can grasp and figure out how to do each of us individually. So that mindset shift is really key. When my so I have three daughters, when my daughters were young, you know I would have people talking to me about, ooh, those teenage years, ha ha ha, you know, in that fear that so many people have of that stage of life with three teenage daughters.

Speaker 1: 13:23

But even at that point I had a conversation with someone in my life who was further along than I was, had teenage daughters at the time and where they were heading off to college, and she's like it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't have to be this horrible time period where it's really hard to, you know, interact with these teenage girls and to be able to get along with them and all that. It doesn't have to be that way. And so I made a mindset shift at that point and, truly honestly, the teenage years with our girls have been wonderful, so many rewarding times, because I took that time to shift my perspective there. I think that's what we need to do in the midst of these years as well to really take that shift in mind, to think about flourishing and what can I do differently to flourish in life? So positive psychology is something you know.

Speaker 1: 14:19

some people would call it pop psychology, but there's actually a lot of research out there related to positive psychology, and that idea that we can grow and change is key in this stage for us. So, really, looking at what are my strengths, what do I want to keep exploring in life, what are those things I am hopeful about, while acknowledging the struggles too. We don't want to just ignore what's going on in life.

Speaker 1: 14:49

We need to prepare, but also be realistic about the struggles and also figure out what are the strengths. How can I grow, how can I continue to flourish in life rather than thinking that I'm just on this decline, there's no hope anymore? That's not the perspective I want to take. I really want to keep moving towards flourishing throughout the whole lifespan.

Speaker 2: 15:14

Yeah, that's a great point. I think it can easily be a cognitive distortion that we're on a decline. We may see gray hairs, we may not have as much energy, but it's a distortion because we really have built up strengths along the way too. As you said, it is a struggle, but I think it's important to be aware of how much balance we have between focusing on our strengths versus that decline. You talked about teenage daughters. I just wanted to, since we have you as a director of counseling. When I encountered some active listening, carl Rogers types of ideas really made a huge difference in my relationship with teenagers. Could you just say a little bit about that?

Speaker 1: 15:59

Yeah, now Rogers is huge within the counseling field, for sure. Those skills that Rogers focused on actually are helpful in building the therapeutic alliance, building that relationship so that we can actually do the work to help someone. Well, that's the same in any relationship we have.

Speaker 1: 16:22

Being able to learn how to use active listening skills and to actually display empathy in the way that the person experiences. It is really key Certainly with teenagers absolutely for them to feel heard in a way that they actually value and agree that yeah, you get me, you understand what I'm saying, versus so often the tendency might be for us to be like oh yeah, I remember what that was like the teenager, because of their development and where they're at, they are absolutely like no, you have no idea what I'm going through. Being able to instead listen and use skills to be able to appropriately repeat that what they're saying, so they feel heard, can then supply that empathy. That's really key. Brene Brown's one who talks a lot about empathy. I think that's a great resource for people to consider. She's got some wonderful short YouTube videos and a whole host of books and resources out there that are really helpful.

Speaker 1: 17:33

One of the things I teach my students related to empathy is that it does have to come from the perspective of the individual we're sitting with. We might think we are the most empathetic person in the world, but if that other person doesn't experience it as empathy, that's not empathy. That is really key for us to keep that perspective of what is the other person experiencing and how am I going to be able to listen to them in a way that's going to be helpful for them as an individual? We have to do that with each individual we interact with, in life too. I interact with one of my daughters is not the same as how I do with the others. It's got to shift and change.

Speaker 2: 18:17

That's right, that's so well said. Thanks for going with me on that kind of tangent. It's just been so powerful for me, interacting with adults and emerging adults, to have that background from Carl Rogers.

Speaker 2: 18:30

I'd encourage listeners, if they're unfamiliar with that, to continue to look into that more. It relates to one of the next areas I wanted to talk about, which is relationships. I'm no developmental psychologist, but a lot of what I've seen relating to well-being in midlife has to do with relationships. Can you talk a little bit more about that, how they evolve and how they impact our well-being during midlife?

Speaker 1: 18:59

Again, one of the things with this is just the awareness that, yes, we all need people, but we need people at different levels and that might shift through life. There are sometimes personality changes that we might experience that someone who may have really felt, for example, that they were very introverted early on in life might shift to being someone who actually gains more energy being around people. Those things can shift and realizing that might happen with us is important. The opposite can happen as well. Someone who might be further along and the extraversion spectrum might realize over time that they really do gain energy from time alone. It's okay that we shift in personality in certain ways, like that, realizing we need people in some way, but the way, kyle, you might need people is not the same as I do. That we all have differences there. That shifts over time is really important to realize.

Speaker 1: 20:01

Again, if we're moving towards that self-authoring mind idea and we're understanding ourselves better, our values better, then this might shift the people we choose to spend time with.

Speaker 1: 20:14

This might shift the social activities we choose, based on how we are shifting. There's also work shifts that might happen. Some people are choosing second careers during midlife. Others are moving towards retirement or trying to figure out how am I going to continue to work to sustain what I want to in life but also still have life change with not maybe working quite as much? There's so many different ways people might choose and have to choose depending on their life circumstances. This shift happens for all of us and the way we might have relationships with people can shift as well with this. Someone who does go from an intense work situation where they're with people all the time to retirement where they're around maybe just their partner's spouse, maybe kids at that really changes for individuals. We have to be aware and prepare for that, especially if you're someone who really Gains that energy from being around people needing to make sure that you have that still in your life in some way with relationships.

Speaker 1: 21:33

But if you're thinking about this to like we're changing and growing and shifting in relationships During this period of time, so are the people around us. That's what we have to realize as well, and that some individuals are moving into this idea of self authoring mind and shifting and might choose to spend less time with us.

Speaker 1: 21:57

and we have to be, okay with that and realize that we're all on our own the developmental trajectory and talking about that, having conversations about that, is a great thing to do to be able to just be real with the people in your life as things are shifting, versus just dropping people or trying to pull people in more, because you need more and more. Just really really having those conversations and being aware of the fact that, yeah, I'm changing and shifting. And I would love if we can spend more time together because I realize that I have this hole in my schedule now that I didn't have before because of work or vice versa you know, there's just all of those factors are important to reflect on and then make sure we're having conversations with the people in our life about those relationships ships.

Speaker 2: 22:51

That is a great way to look at it and think about it. I love that so much. I know from experience it can be difficult to cope with these transitions in a healthy way, so could you talk a little bit more about healthy ways to adapt to these changes?

Speaker 1: 23:06

I would say really a way to focus on this is, as I've alluded to this idea, that preparing is is important, that we are thinking about how can we best Shift in our life and how that has positive impacts on other people's lives versus making it harder on them. So just having that realization and preparing. So when I think about shifts, I often think about the idea of curves in roads. So we have road signs out there for us the majority of the time Not always, but the majority of times. So some are curvy roads. In our family we call them danger noodles, those signs that have the curve. So those danger noodles, like it tells us OK, I have to do something different here. I have to to make some sort of shift, actually physically in the car, have to downshift or slow down, hit the break, anything like that, to be able to prepare for that next stage. So having that patience for ourselves, realizing that it is OK that this shift is coming, this, this curve or multiple curves are coming, and realize it's OK to slow down, prepare for it, figure out how we are going to navigate, that is really important Because if we don't, if one of the road signs missing because we haven't been aware or we just don't have that information to know that this is possibly a shift that's coming in life. For example, if you know someone loses their job in this stage of life and aren't expecting it like being able to stop and figure out, what do I need to do now so that we can manage that that change effectively?

Speaker 1: 25:00

So anticipating as much as possible is really what the research tells us to do to really pay attention to what, what is coming and prepare for that. So you know the what ifs of caregiving with, with parents, with possibly grandkids, with like there's so many different things there, like just preparing for that, including with things like wills, including thinking about conversations with Our parents are caregivers if they are still alive and what is it that they need in their stage of life and anticipating those struggles rather than Just being like, ok, it's going to come and I'll deal with it when it gets here. It's a lot harder if you have to hit the brakes quick because the curve comes up and you weren't expecting it, or it's such a big curve that you go right over and it's a mess because because you weren't expecting it. So preparing as much as possible Is really helpful, including, you know, so many people are focused right now on the idea of OK, well, cognitive decline is something that happens. So what am I going to do to make sure that that doesn't happen to the extent that it might? So what?

Speaker 2: 26:19

can I?

Speaker 1: 26:19

do in life to keep keep as cognitively flexible as possible and learning and growing, rather than just letting that decline happen.

Speaker 2: 26:32

That is a great analogy and a great answer that really spoke to me, amy. So thank you so much. During this interview we've been talking about midlife and it encompasses thinking about your past and we kind of think about as many years I kind of like to drill down to kind of our daily lives. You know, how can we use so psychological knowledge from counseling and developmental psychology in our daily lives to promote flourishing both in the day and long term? Well, I train counselors.

Speaker 1: 27:03

so Go counseling. It's something that can be so helpful for many of us at different periods of life. But when one surprises happen, especially with the curves we're talking about if a curve surprises you and you're like I don't know how to handle this, just having that process of being able to talk about it with someone is going to be helpful For sure. So definitely counseling.

Speaker 1: 27:34

You know, seek out someone who can be helpful in that way. To have those conversations is a good thing, but also having we're talking about the relationship to having those people in your life that you can trust to be able to process with and talk through what is going on is really key with what might come our way during midlife. So I think that's one of the biggest things to realize is that we don't have to navigate this alone. We might be moving towards understanding ourselves internally better and really grasping who we are and what we value internally. That doesn't mean we have to do all of this alone. Bring those people around you in life that that you know you can rely on and turn to Before the curves pop up unexpectedly and, as we know, the curves that are going to come.

Speaker 1: 28:29

Just being doing life with people that we can Trust and love to help along the journey, seeking out individuals that we see, who are further along than we are, who we do see as flourishing, is Something that is key as well if we're like okay, well, how do they do it? Just as simple as that example that I had before with my kids when they were young and talking with someone who was essentially the stage above me where she was dealing with the teenage girls who were moving off. You know, heading towards college, like realizing that it's good to have conversations with those who are Older than us. Certainly what we know Longevity, wise part of what is really helpful, certainly diet, exercise we know all those pieces. But also relationship are key and it's really important to realize that those who are Flourishing in older and old, old adulthood, it's wonderful to be able to just pick their brains, talk with them about well.

Speaker 1: 29:32

How, how has this worked for for you, what's worked for you in life? And that doesn't mean it's going to, for sure, apply to us in our life, but it can just also provide us that hope that, yes, we can do this in our own way, in a way that's going to be something that works for our life, but, yes, we can flourish presently in this stage of life and in future stages as well.

Speaker 2: 29:55

Oh, that is so good and I just want to echo what you said about counseling to. I've experienced the power of that and I hope everybody out there can. If they haven't, they will. I Don't like to stereotype generations really, but people are age, my age, you know we were in a little different age as it relates to mental health, in terms of that stigma or not seeking help. What would you say to midlifers who may have grown up with that stigma? Do you feel like that is still kind of the case in midlifers, and what would you tell them?

Speaker 1: 30:31

Yeah, certainly, you know, obviously not for everyone, but certainly that that still can be the case, and so that's where turning to some of the people who are younger than us can be really helpful too, to have those Conversations with individuals who are like well, yeah, I go to counseling, of course.

Speaker 1: 30:50

I do like that my friends do like having those conversations and Realizing that, yes, it is okay to ask for help. That is a perspective shift, that that can be hard for some individuals, especially if they've had this mentality and this, this thought throughout life that no, I can do this myself, I don't need to reach out to others and and Therapy is something that's just junk and it's just. You know, quacks trying to it's. It's not. It's actually very, a very helpful thing for many individuals. It's not for everyone. But also one of the things that I think is really important to realize is that there are a lot of different styles of counselors who are out. There are different Training and backgrounds. It's like I train clinical mental health counselors. There's also licensed marriage and family therapists. There's psychologists. There's, you know, in, a whole ton of different types of psychologists. There's many other branches of helping professions as well, more all trained slightly differently, yet at the same time, we can often do very much the same work.

Speaker 1: 32:00

So realizing that there's a lot of different options and and styles for how people will approach things. So if you've heard from someone well, yeah, I tried counseling and it was awful. I couldn't stay on the person, whatever One, encourage them to try again with someone different. But to just realize that sometimes it is about finding someone who's a good fit for you, that it's someone that that you feel like actually listens to you, that has empathy for you and is helping you move in the direction that you want. We do know from the research that counseling is beneficial and that it is is helpful, especially if there's that agreement on goals. So the work that we're going to do in counseling is if we know that the counselor is Seeing it the same way and is going to help us with what we need to work on, what we want to work on. That's actually key too.

Speaker 1: 32:58

So really it's another one of those mind shift things where, if we can shift the thoughts we have about Counseling and realize that it is beneficial and have conversations with people who have sought it out, who have found it beneficial, then that might move us in the right direction.

Speaker 2: 33:19

Yeah, I love that answer. For me, I think it's been kind of a mind shift of I Asking for help is a sign of strength rather than trying to do it yourself.

Speaker 2: 33:31

That's a sign of wisdom and strength to ask for help. I Am very thankful that I found that perspective. So, as we come towards the end of this episode, amy, I think you and I could talk for a few more hours here, but could you, could you give us practical advice or techniques from Developmental psychology that listeners can use to make the most of their midlife journey?

Speaker 1: 33:55

Sure, sure. So Let me talk about a few different things here. First of all is I've already talked about try to take that positive outlook, so the positive psychology perspective it is possible for us to grow, develop and change. So, really in that, taking an active stance on our development rather than passive this is happening to me Really being active in that and realizing that, yes, we can Influence our development. So in that, if you're someone who Doesn't have a strong handle on what you value in life, that's a good place to start To really figure out what are my values.

Speaker 1: 34:36

There's lots of great tools to do this. One of my favorites is actually comes out of the motivational interviewing field. That is a part of the addictions world that is used throughout Many different other mental health professions. Now as well, they're motivational. Interviewingorg has a website and you can find the values card sort on there. But essentially there's these free printouts you can do and With clients, the way I've used it in the past, as you print them out and you have it on cardstock and you have these stack of cards, it's like, okay, this is not at all important to me, this is important, this is very important.

Speaker 1: 35:13

And through that process, being able to uncover. Okay, what are the things that I Value the most in life? And one of those things that are just not as important to me, and Really trying to narrow it down to like three to five really key values can be helpful for us to understand Just where we're going in life, what we want to do with the time we have in life, for the relationships, with work, with family, all of those pieces and then Choosing to make changes, to move us towards those values a little more.

Speaker 1: 35:46

I really recommend small, incremental changes. I think sometimes we want to do it all at once and that is generally not helpful. So some practical pieces here from different models out there in the field. So from behavioral perspective, one of the models that gets talked about frequently is the calm be model. So COM B, so capabilities, opportunities, motivation to change and then the behavior. So it's this idea of if we're going to choose to make Change, what do we need to do that with that? So we need to have the capabilities, those actual opportunities to do it. But then that motivation for change is key as well. And then there's behaviors that are going to help us move towards that change. That motivation to change comes from our values. So we're not going to make a change that doesn't fit for our values most of the time unless we have external pressures.

Speaker 1: 36:46

I also like to add on a model of the stages of change model. Prochaska and DiClemente created this a number of years ago. That is, you again heavily came out of the addictions world. This model really grew up with motivational interviewing. But there are separate models, but there's there's the stages here, so people are curious about this. I encourage you to look into this some more, but there's pre. Contemplation is the first place, and this is where we're not even considering a change.

Speaker 1: 37:24

Contemplation, though, is when we start to think is this something I want to do? Is this something that I value? Is this something that's worth me making a change? And then, once we have decided, yes, I want to make this change and we're in this action stage, but again In conjunction with the ComB model, we need to have the capabilities and opportunities to be able to start making that change. And then there's maintenance, where we are taking that time to continue that pattern so it gets ingrained into our life, and then definitely, something that happens is relapse, where we return to old patterns. It happens. So a change I made in my life Quite a number of years ago in relation to assignment.

Speaker 1: 38:09

I kept having my students do where they had to give something up in class. When I was teaching them about addictions counseling specifically, I started doing it myself as well. Each time I taught the class I'd give something up. This news button is what I gave up, because I read research about it, realized, yeah, this is actually harmful, but I actually, given this was a class that I did teach each semester at that period of time, I had to give it up a number of times to get it to stick.

Speaker 1: 38:42

So I returned to those old patterns and then, eventually, I got to the point where I don't use it anymore. I don't need it. I see that it's not helpful for me and I don't use it, but that's. It's challenging and to realize that, yes, we, when we're making changes, we will fall back into old patterns. So when we're in this stage of life, we want to think about OK, what's most beneficial for me? Where do I want to start? What do I value? So, is it something related to my health that I want to make a change, with not jumping on everything automatically?

Speaker 1: 39:17

OK, I'm going to work out. I'm going to totally change my eating patterns. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. Take it slow, one thing at a time, until we have that pattern well established. Then add something on. That's really what I recommend for really practical things right now.

Speaker 1: 39:34

As you're thinking about, as you're listening to this, as you're thinking about, what are those practical things I want to do right now? Really, what do you value and what are those shifts that are going to help you move more towards those values? So if, like family, time with family is a huge value and you're someone in this stage is moving towards, or maybe has grandkids, moving towards grandkids and wants to have that longevity, to be able to spend time with those grandkids for as long as possible, then what are those health changes that might be important in life and where's the where's a place you can start. That is going to be a smaller step to really get those patterns changed. Sleep is a great place to start. People don't realize how much sleep impacts us. That's a great realm to start, if anyone's curious about sleep. But there's so many different like minor patterns that can help us shift, that will help us then see that hope of oh yeah, I am able to change Old dog nutrients. Absolutely. There's so many different things that we can change.

Speaker 1: 40:40

Yeah, that is so good and so helpful and I definitely appreciate you sharing the snooze example, because it reminds me of something I heard recently, that healing and progress is not linear, and I love how you had self-compact.

Speaker 2: 40:56

You know I'm making progress and you will it's not linear and have self-compassion and really I think helps that persistence and long term change so Absolutely and I'm definitely I wanted to mention to. I'm definitely going to put those links in the description so people can find those easily as well. Wonderful. I just want to try one other question with you. I should have given you a heads up, but are there any other books or resources or websites that you would recommend for listeners that want to dive deeper into what they've heard today?

Speaker 1: 41:37

There's. You know, there's so many different resources out there.

Speaker 1: 41:41

The biggest thing I would say is yes like start exploring those pieces that are most interested To you of anything that we've talked about here. So start exploring, start really thinking about those pieces that are most important to you, for your life, for what is going to be flourishing for you. I would say there is a recent book that came out just this year that is really all focused on midlife and older age and really that idea of flourishing, fostering development in middle life and older age and spring or publishing 2023. It's really a nice focus on where things are at presently, with the research encouragement for more. I think it's one that that, if someone wants to take a deep dive into these ideas, that that could be a place to start.

Speaker 2: 42:38

Yeah, very cool. Well, amy, this has been absolutely wonderful. Your enthusiasm and knowledge for this are just Really incredible, and I'm sure many listeners out there are so thankful for the time that you spent with us, and so, on behalf of them, and especially for myself, to just thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and what you do. It's been a real pleasure talking with you on the show today.

Speaker 1: 43:04

Thank you, kyle. It's been a privilege being able to join you for this podcast.