Welcome to the show. So glad you're here, Frank.
Yeah. Thanks, Kyle, for having me. Yeah.
Awesome. Well, , could you just start out by giving our listeners some insight into your background and how you became interested in the topics we'll be discussing today?
Yeah, absolutely. So my research, beginning all the way in grad school was. It's focused on development in older adulthood and looking at perceptions of control and how that links to healthy aging outcomes. And ever since then, I feel like I've started to be interested in earlier phases of the lifespan now I'm settling on midlife and what really got my interest going was about five or six years ago I started a empirical research project that was funded by the John Templeton Foundation and we set out to study middle aged adults. So for this sample, we recruited people ages 50 to 65 and we gave them a monthly questionnaire for two years and they completed questions on life events that happened, their well being, physical health, and character strengths.
And what really got my interest going was within these monthly questionnaires we had them Give an open ended response of, did anything else happen this month? And it was truly fascinating to see some of the responses and what people were dealing with during that past month.
Some of the things people were writing in about was, you know, during this past month, my parents were moving to town to be close to us because they're aging and just helping coordinate their move and then set them up with new doctors and vets.
And so really coordinating the appointments. The aging process of their parents, but then also dealing with whether their children are moving in and out of state and a lot of financial and health issues arose during those open ended comments.
Yeah, it really is a unique time. Another thing I really appreciate about your writing is that you've been writing about midlife and how it's unique in this time, in this age. So could you. just give us a little background on how you're defining mid-life and then what's unique about this time and these days for people in midlife.
Yeah. So midlife, we broadly consider, you know, when you're between the ages of 40 to 65 plus or minus 5 to 10 years. I mean, it really is unique to each individual, but that's generally the broad scope of the age range that we're thinking about. What's particularly interesting nowadays, , there's been quite a bit of research in the last 10 years, I would say, focusing on middle aged adults and looking at cross comparisons of how it is that middle aged adults are doing today compared to other parts of the world.
And something that we in writing the review paper that we published several years ago is that we found that middle aged adults nowadays, right? Particularly those who following the great recession are doing more poorly in their mental and physical health compared to, Middle aged adults who were in midlife during the 90s and early 2000.
So we think definitely the ramifications of the Great Recession have had their long term effects, particularly for middle aged adults when we think about What all they're involved with and their various life roles. So they're firmly embedded within the workplace. Most likely be a homeowner that certainly has its ramifications or it did the great recession did.
But also looking at it intergenerationally as well. So young adults nowadays are more likely to be living with their parents who are most likely in midlife because, you know, they're having a tougher time securing long term employment. And even if they are able to find a well paying job housing is expensive and that was certainly has risen because of the COVID 19 pandemic.
And also currently now, I mean, mortgage rates are 7 percent or hovering around that, which makes it. Very challenging to purchase a home.
We focused a lot on the negative sides of midlife, but You know, there's a lot of positive and good.
It is a time of opportunity as well. You know, in terms of say within your career, if you're moving up the ladder in your career, leadership. Developing and building wisdom and being able to pass this knowledge on to younger generations. And oftentimes, because people are living these longer lives, there is that opportunity to potentially kind of pivot within midlife to a new career.
With the asterisk there of if you have The financial means to say, take some time off and re. Train or go back to school and get a master's or a certificate or other programs. So especially with people living longer, you have to hit 50 or 55 and be like, you know what, what I've been doing for the last 20 years, it's been fun.
It's been fine. But. There's something more that I would like to discover.
So not only are there challenges, but it's certainly important to think about these more positive angles as well.
Definitely. And I know that you've been writing about across global perspective. What are some similarities and differences that you found around the globe?
Yeah, absolutely. So my current research project is we're looking at studying historical changes in mental and physical health in middle aged adults in the U.
S. and from nations in Europe, but also Asia and Mexico. So looking at whether these current trends of declining mental and physical health among middle aged adults nowadays. Is it specific to the U. S.? Or is this also similarly happening across the world? And so we're using these longitudinal panel surveys that have assessed tens of thousands of people.
And, which is really great to have access to this treasure trove of data and, you know, a paper that kind of led to this larger project is where we looked at changes in mental and physical health in middle aged adults from the U. S. Germany, Australia, South Korea, and Mexico, and there we found, middle aged adults nowadays are reporting more depressive symptoms and exhibiting poorer memory compared to earlier born middle aged adults in the U.
S., and that this was Specific to the U. S. We didn't see these similar trends within South Korea, in Mexico and Germany as well. And then another aspect of the paper is to try to identify some of the potential reasons that this could be specific to the U. S. as compared to other nations?
Yes, I think that's just so interesting. , what are some of your hypotheses about why that might be?
Right now it's just speculative, but we hope to be able to test this in the upcoming years with the data that we're working with. And I mean, for one, if we look at various policy differences across the U.
S. and Say, you know, Germany or France and other nations in Europe. So there's more of a safety net when it comes to Family and employment related programs. So let's just take, you know, look at the the cost of daycare You know within the u. s. You're probably thinking depending on where you live. I mean in the Phoenix area, it's Somewhat reasonable and I say that in quotes because it's probably around a thousand dollars a month or so Depending on where you go for you have one child in daycare Whereas I have a colleague in Germany who he was ashamed to tell me that he's paying 300 euros a month for a daycare for his daughter And I just absolutely blew my mind.
And in other parts of Germany. So I lived in Berlin for two years before coming to ASU and there it's fully subsidized, so it's free. Obviously there's a trouble finding a spot, but if you think about just the pressure that relieves financially, that you're not. You know, putting so much of your income towards daycare so that you can go to work.
And if you also think about it, if you have less money to go, you know, for paying daycare, then you can put that towards your retirement account or maybe towards home improvements that you need or. Family vacations. And also there's , the healthcare side of things, , there's differences in terms of healthcare coverage, at least within the U. S. and especially when you compare to some European nations and, you know, how much are you paying out of pocket expenses or another financial pressure as well.
Yeah, it's a really interesting comparison. We've been talking about stressors, but I really like how you've also been talking about resilience.
, we looked at various aspects such as social support and whether or not people have people to go to in times of need or that they can count on. Not necessarily that they actually engage with others in that regard, but just knowing that you have someone to go to in times of need has been shown to be a strong outcome.
Resource to rely on and that promotes more positive outcomes in the face of adversity. So definitely social support is a, is a big one. Another one that I haven't really studied myself as much, but I've seen quite a bit of research on is looking at purpose in life, uh, particularly within.
Transitions that individuals are experiencing in midlife, whether it be their children going off to college or whether people are retiring or transitioning into a new job or a new phase in their own, in their life and just developing a sense of purpose and knowing, you know, something you find enjoyable and That gives you, joy and kind of, I think something that goes along with that is a sense of identity as well, because say, with your children going off to college, you may be, your life centers around them so much and then they're off to college and you're like, Oh, what do I do?
Who am I? Everything is about shuttling your kids to and from school and different activities. Having that sense of purpose of engaging in something more beyond yourself or what brings you great joy is certainly particularly helpful in promoting resilience.
Definitely. Definitely. Frank as we get towards the end of our conversation, what are some key takeaways? You'd like the listeners to take from our conversation and from your work.
This is, I would say this is partially research and partially my own kind of experiences as entering midlife. I think managing your expectations. When it comes to, you know, work, family, your own health and, and well being and for me sometimes it's a struggle to just kind of know, you know, living, In the moment and appreciating where you are and not so much always thinking about future oriented aspects or , Oh, I didn't get to work as much today.
Well, that's probably because, a kid was sick or there was just other madness happening. So I think certainly managing expectations. And, my older son loves Daniel tiger. And I think in one of the, I think this is from Daniel tiger, when, in one of the episodes, they were just talking about running your own race.
And not always comparing yourself to others. And, if you compare yourself to someone else, thinking, oh, they look so much happier than us, it may not always So I think trying to run your own race and manage your expectations is especially helpful to think about and know that, yeah, you're not the only middle aged adult out there who may be struggling or having these challenges. Trying to manage the complexities and taking it all in. But. Knowing that if you do need help to reach out and I'm sure there are others who could provide advice and knowing, what you are going through.
It's amazing. How, why some of those PBS kids shows could be.
Sometimes I think we're sometimes getting more from it than our kids.
Yeah, we were just sitting there watching. I was like, Oh my gosh, you are brilliant, Daniel Tiger. So yeah. I guess another take home of this of midlife is just watch more children's shows, right?
Like, take a look at Bluey. Yeah, exactly. You're gaining that
wisdom and you're spending that quality time with your kids. And which, speaking as somebody with kids with a little bit old who are older, I don't regret any times I watched PBS with my kids.
It's truly a fun time. Yeah,
Exactly.
Well, Frank, you're living this and you're researching this and I'm just really excited to share this with the listeners. So thanks so much for joining us today.
Yeah, absolutely. It's been a pleasure and thank you again for having me.