The Spirituality of Justice: A Conversation with Layla F. Saad

In this episode, I speak with a woman whose podcast has deeply inspired me and whose writings have made significant waves in anti-racism movements. I had the opportunity to fangirl a little with Layla F. Saad as we discussed her journey to becoming an anti-racist changemaker and activist.

Layla is known for addressing issues of racism and social justice, but this is her first time speaking publicly about her beliefs and identity as a Muslim woman. The ongoing genocides in Gaza, Sudan, and Congo have profoundly strengthened Layla’s connection to the Divine through the concept of justice grounded within the Islamic tradition. 

Our conversation also covers a range of other topics, including how Layla’s recent diagnosis as neurodivergent has changed how she interacts with the world and enabled her to understand herself better. Layla also shares her perspective on the importance of experiencing collective trauma, grief, and rage as part of our shared humanity.

Layla Saad is a New York Times and Sunday Times bestselling author, speaker, teacher, and cultural worker. She is the author of the groundbreaking anti-racism book Me and White Supremacy and the host of the Become A Good Ancestor and Good Ancestor Podcasts. 

Find Layla online here: https://www.instagram.com/laylafsaad/ 
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/becomeagoodancestor 

Transcript

Note: This transcript has been generated by AI and most probably has some mistakes in transcription. 

Rose Aslan

In this episode, I speak with a woman whose podcast has deeply inspired me and whose writing has made significant waves in anti-racism movements. I had the opportunity to fangirl a little with Layla F Saad, as we discussed her journey to becoming an anti racist change maker, and activist. Leila is known for addressing issues of racism and social justice. But this is her first time speaking publicly about her beliefs and identity as a Muslim woman. The ongoing genocide in a has has profoundly strengthened laylaz connection to the divine, through the concept of justice grounded within the Islamic tradition. Our conversation also covers a range of other topics, including how Layla is recent diagnosis as neurodivergent has changed how she interacts with the world and enabled her to better understand herself. Leila also shares her perspective on the importance of experiencing collective trauma, grief, and rage as part of our shared humanity. Leila Sadd is a New York Times and Sunday Times best selling author, speaker, teacher, and cultural worker. She is the author of the groundbreaking anti racism book me and white supremacy, and the host of the Being a good ancestor and good ancestor podcast. Leila is a black British Muslim woman of Zanzibari Kenyan and Omani ancestry. She was born and grew up in the UK, and lives in Qatar. As a third culture kid, she has always sat at a unique intersection of identities. From what she is able to draw rich and intriguing perspectives. Her work sits at the intersection of social justice and healing. Leila is driven by her powerful desire to become a good ancestor, to live and work in ways that leave a legacy of healing and liberation. For those who come after she is gone. 

Layla Saad  3:52  

I'm so excited to be here. This is actually the first time I'm doing an interview, like, ends up being interviewed by another Muslim woman as a Muslim woman. So I've been really looking forward to this conversation. Oh,

Dr. Rose Aslan  4:07  

that just gives me shivers and chills that are so beautiful, because I've been such a fan of your to podcast. And I like was literally inspired to create a podcast space and listen to your incredible conversations with people about their ancestors. So to know that I'm the first person interviewing this way, just like means so much and it's such an honor to have you here, Leila. Um, that's beautiful, having dilemna from the last so I'll start with the question I like to ask everyone is can you remember when you first started getting interested in spirituality? Oh,

Speaker 1  4:40  

I think it's kind of a hard question to ask because it's always been there. When you ask that question. The first thing that comes to mind or the first person that comes to mind is my mom. Because our entire upbringing she spent so much time in Energy cultivating within our house like this Islamic education for context. My parents were East African immigrants to the UK, we lived in Wales, Cardiff, very white, we went to Roman Catholic schools because my parents felt that the education at these religious schools was better. And they were like, even though it's a different religion, at least God is talked about in these spaces. And so we would go out into the world and be different, I'd be black and be Muslim, and also being given a, like a religious education that was very different to what we believe, as our faith tradition. And so I felt like my mom, like when I look back, I'm like, she made such an effort with not only teaching us grow on and like Islamic habits, but also helping us kind of understand Islamic stories. And she had a lot of books that at the time I like Nitish get them from, but I remember I was thinking about it earlier, they weren't books published in, like, from Africa. So they would have been from Tanzania, or Kenya, where my parents are from, that were English, but that were about Islam. And in the 80s, I can't imagine it was very easy to find books like that in the UK. And so they were bringing them over from Africa. But she really made this effort. Every day, we would read Quran every day, we were talking about Islam. And it was like she was almost trying to counter the education that we were getting outside to ensure that we knew that we were Muslim. And so she tells these funny stories of like, I would come home from school and be like, you have to say grace before we eat. Because that's what we're doing at school. Play Now we're not Christian, we don't do that, you know, I have tapes of my mom would record, me and my siblings when we were younger, because my dad worked away at sea. And so she would record these tapes of that and send them to him so that he could listen to us and hear our voices. And I was listening to one and there's just me in the background just singing. I love baby Jesus just over and over again. Right? Um, so she knew the education that we're getting there. But she was kind of having to like, fill in the gaps for us when we would get back home. They can't think about Islam, and how it originated for Me without thinking about my mom.

Dr. Rose Aslan  7:24  

That's beautiful. That's so funny, because my son went to a Lutheran preschool and he would sing the baby Jesus sung to Yes. And I had to correct that hope. Right? Very popular. Sug. That's beautiful. So you're spiritually lives with your mother? Can you tell me more of like, how did that land with you as a young girl? As a teen? What did it mean to you, especially in a place like Wales, where I'm sure the community was very small.

Speaker 1  7:48  

How did it land with me? I think when you're younger, you're not taking a bird's eye view of what's going on. You just know, when we're at home, this is what we're doing. As lucky enough to have some cousins and other family members. Not many, but at least somewhere I was like, Okay, it's not just us. There are other people who are like us, but you're right, the community was very small. And it wasn't until so I've moved around quite a bit and live in Doha, Qatar. Now, as you know, and I've lived here, almost eight years, it was 25 years. Yes. But before that, I lived in Wales, and lived in Tanzania, and lived in England, and then you know, various places across England. And so we've moved quite a bit. And so seeing these different environments, or places in which being Muslim, felt very foreign. And then there were places in which it was like, Well, everyone, this is what everyone else is, right. And so being a third culture, kid, Third Culture, adult, I think it like many of us made us very adaptable, helped us to see the similarities and the differences makes it so that we feel like we can fit in everywhere. But also if I didn't know where, and again, I really credit both my parents, because my dad when he would be home from See also very active in instilling in us a sense of like, knowing who you are, at your core, no matter where you are, that who you are, shouldn't depend on the circumstances that are around you, or if everybody is practicing, or nobody's practicing. But that should be something that is instilled and ingrained within you. And I really appreciate that. They didn't just teach us from the kind of like, these are the rules and regulations of Islam, you know, although they certainly taught us those things, but also would, even without directly referencing Islam, teach us kind of the characteristics and the habits of how to be as a person. And to this day, you know, I'm really lucky my parents are both alive, they're well, we're very close. And as you I've just entered my 40s. And I feel like I have even more of an appreciation of the things that they were teaching us. But certainly especially entering into like preteens, teens, young adulthood, and being a third culture child and moving around so much, I definitely will say I had a lot of cultural like identity confusion. And that then connects with connected with how I felt it like as a Muslim. And I think it was hardest for me when I left home to go to university, because I spent years when I was 15, to 18, I was here in Qatar, that's when we first moved here. And then 18, I went back to the UK, I was alone for the first time. And you know, I'm the oldest only girl I had been quite restricted in what I could do. And then suddenly, I was in another world. And in my university, I did have Muslim friends, but we were all just kind of like finding our way, you know what I mean? And so I would say that's the period in which I was least closest to my dt, at least closest to, to Allah. And unsurprisingly, it was a period where I suffered with the most anxiety and the most depression, because I really just didn't know who I was, where I was, what was important to me, I think it's a formative time for everybody, regardless of your cultural backgrounds, religious backgrounds, what have you. For me, I look back on those times. And I'm like, that's what it feels like, you really feel that distance from a lot, you feel very alone. And you feel like, it's hard to make your weight back. And I think I had such an understanding at the time that was very binary, that either I like prayed or my prayers did or things covered. My hair was like very Muslim, very visibly Muslim, very consistent in my worship, or I wasn't. And I think as I've grown, and you know, I'm having this very beautiful, deeper reawakening in my Deen at the moment, and really understanding more of like that the spirit of Islam, and not just the rules and regulations. Lila,

Dr. Rose Aslan  12:14  

I'm so glad you brought this up so early on in the conversation. First of all, the fact that everyone post high school for many people University is such a formative period, every single person I've interviewed mentioned the university or college as the time when something big shifted in their lives. I can say the same for myself. But then I love how you identify the fact that for you Islam was very much a binary religion, right? Good, bad. Wrong, right? Halal haram. Right. And that's how most of us were taught Islam, unfortunately. And it's beautiful, that you can openly discuss that for many people. It's difficult right to even talk about these things. Because there's a lot of shame connected to that. And even to overcome this binary, even if it's not true. And to talk about openly is actually very difficult. Because the binary is so inculcated, and so fractured within us that to go beyond is Oh, like, what if? Yeah, so I'd love to hear the journey of how you went from being further from your spirituality in university, and then, you know, in your 20s, and your young adulthood, and what is your journey from binary Islam to becoming further away? And then coming back to it in a more in a deeper way? Yeah,

Speaker 1  13:28  

absolutely. I mean, my journey is very, this place, right, so like everyone, right? It's not a straight line. I do think that there are some important landmarks in my life that kind of helped me to look at things and make some intentional decisions around things. So one of them was becoming a mother for the first time. So I was married, I think I was 24, I had my first child at 25. And at that time, I still felt like I was very much, I'd moved back home and moved back to Qatar. But I felt like I was living a double life where it felt like, I had the remnants of what was left over from university. And then I was like, I have a job now and I'm living at home and I need to be a responsible adult. But I was a cover my hair, but I don't really want to and it was kind of you know that and so I felt this like split, but becoming a mother made me want to be in greater integrity within myself. And to decide either way, like, am I going to like commit in showing up in my game in a way that is consistent that okay, the child is in me now just growing, but they're going to reach an age where they'll notice like, Hey, you say this, but you do this, right? Is that okay? Or, like can I just make a decision about who I'm going to be? And so I did and I'm really grateful for motherhood for bringing me to that place of intentionality and kind of forcing me in many ways to be like you need to decide who you are. And you need to decide how you want to show up, not just how other people see you, but how you feel about yourself inside. So that was a key point. And a major decision at that time was that I made the decision to wear the hijab. Actually, probably two other people who may have known me who weren't very close to me, they would not have noticed a difference because I wore it anyway. But at that point, I was like, No, this is where it doesn't matter if people who might judge me Don't see me, I'm wearing it anyway. Right. So motherhood really brought that out of me. And then I think I'm kind of tracking my journey and how things change. I wore the hijab for quite a time. And then the reach the time, where I just felt the sense of like, I don't think I want to wear it, I don't think I want to wear it, it was really odd, because it wasn't something that I invited in, it wasn't something that I was looking for. It just felt like this feeling inside of like something feels out of integrity. And it was hard for me to explain it. And certainly not something that I wanted to share, publicly like my process around it, because I think there's so much we know that there's so much judgment about Muslim woman, women and how we present how we learn from people who are Muslim, and from those who are not. Exactly right. And so I couldn't explain something where it was like, It's not that I don't want to wear it, because I feel less close to Allah. It's more like, I feel like I made the decision at an age where I was so trying to do the right thing that I hadn't really considered what my relationship was with Allah, it was more about like, this is for my child, so that my child sees me as this consistent human being, that haven't really considered like, how I feel about the hip hop. And it's interesting, because it took some time, I decided to stop wearing hijab, and it coincided with a time in my life where I was doing a lot of healing work, a lot of healing work around my mother wound, a lot of healing, work around internalized patriarchy, etc, to understand a lot of things around my about myself around being a highly sensitive person, there was just, there was a lot of understanding that was happening. And it what I kept with me at the time, there was also a lot around my spirituality as well. And kind of exploring other types of spirituality and what other people believe. And I never was, I never lost the sense of like, I believe in Islam, I believe in a lab, I believe that there are other gods or anything like that. But I was just like, just giving myself the opportunity to see what other people are saying. And what do I think about what that means. And what I found is that, in exploring different forms of spirituality, I could see the same single truth, just with different faces and in different ways or with different archetypes. But nothing to me felt as I guess, true or as complete, as it slammed did. And I'm very thankful for that, that it never got to a point where I felt like yeah, I don't believe in Islam anymore. I actually want to go do something else was at a time where I was like, let me do some analysis. Let me do some investigation. Let me do some research. And my parents always talk to us about the importance of education and about learning about other faiths, because we each have to be responsible for our deen and our relationship with Allah. Because on the Day of Judgment, you know, Allah is not going to say, Why did you do that? And you say, well, because my mom told me or my dad told me, right, you have to take it upon yourself. And so that was what that period was for me. And I think from the, from people looking in, I think they were very confused about what was going on with me. I think they were very like, is she of caring? Is she kind of having some sort of like, break out, like what's going on? But I think it was that break down to break through moment. And I came out the other side. I think I came out the chat. So many stages. But as I look back, I think I came out the other side with more of an understanding there was a lot of that was linked to my social justice journey. And prior to that, I had I hadn't really connected with that, even though I'd grown up like I had grown as a woman, obviously not a grown up like in primarily white spaces. But I hadn't really connected all of these internalized things that I felt and being connected to social justice, and then how that connects to Dean. And so it all came together. And so I think that was the fledgling of like me understanding like there's even deeper stories here. But I think as I look back from this vantage point now, and where I'm at right now, I think I understand even more deeply that social justice is such a key part of Islam. And I would not have gotten to that understanding, had I not made decisions earlier on that look like I was moving away from Islam?

Dr. Rose Aslan  20:13  

Yes, that makes so much sense. Yeah, I understand. And actually, I would love to ask you to dive a little bit deeper if you're really into that experimentation analysis stage, because a lot of listeners on this podcast are seekers, they're trying to figure out they're on the healing path. They're like, experimenting, seeking, learning. And it's confusing, right? Especially for Muslims, who we've been told what is right, what is wrong, and it seems a little bit heretical to go outside and to go do all kinds of other practices and sit with other communities. So I would love if you're willing to share about a little bit of that period of your life or what you tried out who you spend time with, and what you learned from that experience?

Speaker 1  20:56  

Absolutely. It's so messy. It's so rare that you're coming back. Yes. Okay. So there were various things, I think, a huge part of it was exploring what it meant to be a woman. And it's interesting, because now, that feels like, so not important. I feel because of the healing work I've done over the years. My identity, as a woman doesn't feel like this thing that even matters that much. You know what I mean? It's like, My soul is not a woman, my soul is just a soul, you know, but at that time, because there had been ways in which I hadn't understood the ways that patriarchy had influenced what I thought about myself, and where I had been given opportunities or where opportunities had been denied, or how I was supposed to view other women or all of these kinds of things, that I really needed to unpack that. And I couldn't find the space within the Islamic teachings that I knew of at the time, where I could do that. And so I found myself exploring it through the world that now you know, I'm one of the biggest critiques of it, but through the New Age, spirituality world, because that was the only place where I saw those conversations having. Now again, if I hadn't gone down that route, I wouldn't have had the awakening of like, Hold on, why is it all white women here. And also, it seems to be a lot of cultural appropriation of brown and black cultures. But that was my first step into the water, right. And that's where I began to look at other ways of being a woman that a woman is not just that, like a one dimensional being, there are many different ways. And one of the things that gets that we're not supposed to be as angry, like, rage is not something we're supposed to express. No, it's not something we're supposed to say, going against, like, whatever beauty standards or whatever, ways of like pleasing, being pleasing to the male gaze. It's not something that we were supposed to do. And it was only through these faces, so through books, through stories, really archetypal stories as well. So things like women who run with the wolves and kind of those kind of that I began to see and hear and understand different stories about women. That resonated with a lot of how I felt inside. As always feeling like I was different, always feeling like there was a lot of unspoken emotion, always feeling like I was very sensitive, and always feeling that all these things were wrong. And so to find spaces and conversations in which it was like, No, this is just a facet of being a woman. And that's okay. I found that very healing. But I would say that was like step one, if that was step one, because, you know, even as we progressed to like step, whatever, is a big difference between rage and being a woman and rage and being a black woman. And that was a journey I had to make up like, Oh, this is why it's always felt even more dangerous, to express how I feel, or sensitivity and being a black woman when the world expects you to be strong. And all I've ever had modeled to me is strong black womanhood. I of course, the fact that I am very sensitive, and I don't feel like I can connect to that archetype explains that. So I let myself explore a range of different things, energy healing, tarot cards, reading about different goddess archetypes, like, there were a lot of things that I was looking at, but always with the sense of like, just because I'm reading it doesn't mean that I have to believe it. Unless it rings true in my heart, unless it feels like this is a complete truth. I don't have to believe anything. And so I felt that sense of freedom just within myself to be like, It's okay, just read explore. You know, what's the worst that can happen if you know who you are, you know, are. And it took us a number of years to do that. And what I will say as well is that, in doing that, I'm smiling because if I hadn't have done that, I also wouldn't be the writer that I am today. I started, what is now my Instagram account, which has like, you know, 500 plus 1000. People, this was actually a secret account that I started. From my main account, I had a different main account where I would like, you know, all my family were on it. And I would share like, you know, my food and stuff, but not equal what we were doing on Instagram back in the day, then I started a private account where I just wanted to share, like writing, like, I would just write things about how I felt or chip poetry, or I would share like, pictures of crystals or like images of like powerful women, or whatever the case may be. And it became this way in which it was like a private sacred space in which I could start practicing using my voice in a new way. Oh, Instagram is a sacred

Dr. Rose Aslan  25:57  

space. I

Speaker 1  25:58  

love that when Majan. Speaking about Instagram, yeah, yes. And imagine that that's the same account that I use today, that has built so much, you know, with my own evolution, I always felt like, I'd always journaled, I'd always written but I'd never felt like other people can read what I have to say. And this became the first place it was where it was, like, let me practice using my voice and let me practice sharing things that I'm working through or thinking about or playing with. I don't have to, like mask or perform or be afraid that people who know me in real life will judge me for what I'm saying. And so it gave me the space to be like, let me practice being myself, and who do I want to be? And so like I said, it's like, every day I practice using my voice, and then it helped me to become the writer that I am today, because that same very account was the account that started me in white supremacy, it's the same account that I've written and shared viral articles through it's the same account where we've connected right, we would not have connected if not for that. So I'm always in awe of how we, we say right in some way that we plan and allow plan and Allah is the best planner, right? We think the route to get to here is this very straight line. And it's not it's this and sometimes it doesn't make sense. And sometimes what we often see are the most to the point that you were making about people who are being seekers and trying to find new ways, the thing that we fear the most oftentimes, is not that we will lose ourselves. It's that other people will judge us and not understand what it is that we're doing. Because they're only seeing it. They're only seeing the outside, they're not seeing what's going on in our minds and in our hearts. And they're not seeing that we have that secret heart. We're trying to get to the truth for ourselves.

Dr. Rose Aslan  27:52  

Yes, that resonates so strongly within me. 100%. Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1  27:55  

Yes. So I think when you get to that truth for yourself, nobody can take it away from you, because you've tried all the things. Exactly. You did all the things, and you still find yourself in this place. And this is what you believe. And I just think nothing stronger than that.

Dr. Rose Aslan  28:15  

Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. It's really important for others also to hear someone like yourself and how you got to where you are now. So you mentioned briefly step two. So step one is the New Age spiritual. I remember when someone recommended women who run with wolves to me like 10 years ago, I remember that Yeah, that's right. We all have that book on our bookshelves. That's step one. Step two, you kind of briefly touched upon it sounds like it's the more intersectional spirituality Could you please tell because when I watch your posts, it really seems to me your spirituality is so social justice oriented connected. So please tell us more about that. And how you reconcile reconcile but how you kind of manage all that in one person in I

Speaker 1  28:57  

will again give credit to my parents is kind of like the grounding foundation of teaching us wrongly right and how to treat other people and how to be around other people and so I have that always it's a foundation from which I build upon and then understanding and the spark for me was actually 2017 That's when the unite the right rally happened in Charlottesville, Virginia, which is very far from where I live. It just was like this we never know what that like trigger moments gonna be for us or my people. That was when

Dr. Rose Aslan  29:30  

there's a que que que rally in Charlottesville at the college town when University of Virginia was

Speaker 1  29:36  

awful awful. And I just remember seeing those images of those men and thinking that is hate that's what hate looks like I could never seen it so something about the photography of it as well. But there was something that was just other worldly To me that was like coming from somewhere else and how can a human being direct that kind of energy at another human being or other human beings simply Because of their difference, and it really struck me that even though that it wasn't like an explicitly anti black rally, it was against people who are not white. What I noticed was that I've been for a number of years in this world of like, not only New Age Group spirituality, but also coaching. I worked in corporate and then I'd left corporate to become this coach was growing a business is going hand in hand with me using my voice and just sort of coaching women around leadership and spirituality. And the message over and over again, was like, we're here to change the world. And the work we're doing is changing the world. And I'm like, How can you not say anything about this, not a single thing was said, by any of the people who were in that field. And I just thought, That's so weird. You know what I mean? It's so weird, it feels almost like intentional. And before that, you know, it. All these things always happen to like, meet us at the point when we're ready. A few months before that rally my studies that's like womanhood and spirituality, and justice, which at the time, I wasn't really using that language, it was all like smash the patriarchy. But I understand the patriarchy just one part. There's all these other things, but had naturally taken me into books, and readings by black women and women of color, and black people and people of color. And that's when I began to understand or begin to kind of get the seedlings of like, hold on, you're black, you know, and you've you, do you understand the ways in which you have always tried to minimize your blackness or always tried to fit in, or have people not, but I didn't want people to know that I was black. But there was so much under the surface of understanding that my difference was something that separated me. And so I didn't want that to be something that separated me. But I had started to realize that in doing that, I was really denying my own self, I was really betraying my own self. And there was a feeling of shame around that, because I didn't have the language for it at the time. But I was discovering my own internalized oppression, essentially. And that the ways in which I had been taught to strive towards standards of like myths and white womanhood, that were never made for me, and that weren't even like the standard that I'm supposed to be to believe it was. And so I was already like questioning a lot of stuff. And then this thing happened. And so I'm looking to like, are they gonna say anything? Because I'm thinking, if it was like an attack on white women, we would all hear about smash the patriarchy. But this is no odd. And I just thought, What's going on here. So I, that's when I wrote an article that went viral at the time old, I need to talk to spiritual white women about white supremacy. And it went viral. And what was really interesting was, I was still a baby in like, understanding my own understanding around social justice work. So I was suddenly like, inundated with like responses and conversations and things where it's like, I'm still learning, I'm still figuring this out. I just felt it's burning me to say something, because I'm just sick of the status quo. And I just feel like we need to talk about it. But that then became my portal, I guess, into like, this work that I'm in now where it's like, you were always supposed to be here. Usually, you just have a bunch of experiences before, because there was no way for example, I would have even noticed or been able to speak to the kind of intersectional elements of this. Had I not explored the other things, there's no way I would have even wrote something in that way and published it. Like I remember hitting publish and thinking, you know, at the time, like 2017, you can't say white women, right? You can't like you can't say white women and white supremacy together. Now we're like, we there's so many books about it. There's so many articles about it. But at the time, it was like, No, you can't say that, you know, white women are like, perfect, you can't talk about them in that way. So it if I hadn't have gone through what I had gone through, I wouldn't have built up that courage in my voice to write that article in the way that I did. And that then became this portal to continue to do my own healing work around my own internalized anti blackness as well also now starting to advocate and share information and education for other people who are also trying to figure this out. But it was quite a few years there where it was like, I'm figuring this out. And at the same time, I inadvertently become this boy's pupil think as an authority, but I'm actually still figuring things out for myself as well. So it was it was a rough period, I

Dr. Rose Aslan  34:51  

think, yeah, what a journey to have to do that in the spotlight. Right? A lot of us go through our healing journeys really quietly, I was in a very deep cocoon state. Ah, when I was no stages, and so to do it in the spotlight, is an extra challenge. So I can see why you've continued this path. Could you tell me so when you entered into this maybe is that step two or three, this anti blackness spirituality to work on understanding your nature of oppression? How did you delve into this? What modalities did you use to understand your identity and your spirituality and intersectionality? Altogether? I'm sure, yeah,

Speaker 1  35:28  

absolutely. And you know, what I will say, it's really humbling and exciting is that it continues to be a lifelong journey. So I'm now working on my third book, where I'm exploring even more different layers around colonialism. And we're also at a time where a lot of there are a lot of genocides happening in the global south. And that's bringing to our attention, even more like multifaceted ways in which supremacy, culture and oppression manifests themselves, right. So every year we grow, every year that we have the privilege to grow is a year in which we also have the privilege and responsibility to learn more, but also the world is like showing us more and kind of forcing us to have to reckon with it as well. But to your question, so I wrote that article of ces 2017, I wrote that article in and publish it, I think it was August, December, I was completely burned out. Because when I say it went viral, I mean viral. And suddenly it was like every person. naively I have thought it this will only go as far as people in this field. In this like, New Age, spirituality coaching field, it went so far, people that I'm like, I wasn't even talking to you yet. But but it hit on so many different nerves, that every day, it felt like I was battling with people online. I was either it was either people coming at me about what I had written, or about what I was sharing, or I found myself in conversations that were that would go back and forth with me trying to like educate during emotional labor. Or I was in situations where friendships and relationships with white women were falling apart. And it was causing a lot of heartbreak. And so within like three months, I was completely burnt out. Yeah. So December, I decided to take a sabbatical never done that before. But I was like, I understand now why people take sabbatical can completely take time off. And I took the whole month of December off. And what I did was I basically went to the library, like as often as possible, and we have a really wonderful library here. And I got out as many books as I could by black activist writers, black feminist writers, like civil rights writers, you know, Bell Hooks, James Baldwin, Toni Morrison, like as many as you can imagine, and just was like ingesting information, because two things. One, I was like, this is not sustainable. I can't keep doing this. So there must have been, there must be maps, there must be like, guidance that has come before on how to do this, because clearly, I feel called to this work. But I can't do it in the way that I've been doing it. And number two, I just felt like I didn't have enough information. I didn't have enough historical context, I didn't have enough understanding of all the different layers. And then I'm a student at heart. So that was my natural inclination anyway. And so I spent that time reading quite widely, both to understand systems of oppression. But also to understand how how people in the past coat with dynamics like this, I will say one of the books that was really life changing for us sister outside of by Audrey Lorde, reading her essays, I was like, you could have written these today, this would be just as relevant. And so it made me feel a sense of comfort of like, okay, this is this is not something that other people haven't gone through. But it also made me feel a great deal of sadness, like, why are we still replaying these dynamics over and over again, years, decades later, but when I returned, I came back and I hired a coach. I had worked with the black woman coach before but for a very short period, and really just on my business, this is my first time working with a black woman coach, and we worked on me, and how and how I wanted to show up in the world, and what was being internalized within me and how to face it and deal with it. And so that then, I think, was where I kind of started taking back my autonomy and my agency where I was like, I don't have to just be this. I don't. What I noticed was that I felt like I was replicating the very oppression that I was trying to fight because I was making myself so available to do all of this emotional labor work, thinking that was the only way to do change making work. And what I actually found was like, No, you're in trying to this was languaging that came later. But he tried to become a good ancestor. You think that you have to self sacrifice, so that those who come later don't have to, but actually, those who have come before you have already done so much work, so that you don't have to in the same way? And then secondly, that it's not liberation, if I'm not included in it? Yes. If I'm not included in it, it's just a continuation of oppression. Yeah,

Dr. Rose Aslan  40:32  

it's such an important message. And I really appreciate you sharing this, because so many social justice activists and many Muslims, especially in the West, who are always as acting as an apologist, you know, to make sure people know that Muslims are not air extremists, that they're human. This is what I spent years doing as a professor of Islam. And they always forget about themselves. And here, you are reminding us you have to, to be able to do this work, you need to be a well resourced human, and you are part of the liberation, I think you're right. I think a lot of people forget, they're also part of it. And they're just like, basically the cells as fulfilling a mission, not realizing that they need to be well resourced, they need to take care of themselves. So thank you for reinforcing that. And I hope we hear this from you and many other people so many more times, because I think people need to hear this hundreds of times before they might actually start practicing this in their lives. Absolutely.

Speaker 1  41:21  

I think it's hard, because for those of us who those, the kind of people that you're describing, our hearts are so on fire for doing the right thing, and for creating a better world. But we don't often realize that if we haven't investigated our own internalized oppression, that the way that we're trying to fulfill that mission is a continuation of the things that are hurt, yes, and the same, you know, at the same time, and so we have to kind of break apart. And it's hard because it then goes against that the internalized oppression of like, this is how to be good. That'd be a good person, that'd be good Muslims, how to be a good woman, because all of these things, and you have to risk people saying, well, you're not very nice, or you're being selfish, or you only care about yourself, or whatever the case may be. And that comes, that's where it comes back to, like really knowing yourself, but really knowing that no, I know that I'm giving myself to the work. And I also know that in order for this to be sustainable, I had to really take care of myself too. Because it's strategic to do so. But also because it's your right, yes,

Dr. Rose Aslan  42:30  

it's your way. Yes, thank you so much for saying that. And that actually brings me to one of the last questions I have for you. And something I really admire while watching you on social media is you being so open and vulnerable about your need to take care of yourself online? You know, because I imagine the demand on your people making a request of you is huge, because you have so many amazing things to share. And a lot of people want a piece of that. But you've so openly spoke about first of all unmasking yourself as neurodivergent and get diagnosis and taking a break and disconnecting from the world. Can you talk more about how that how that experience was for you? Because I saw that kind of led into perhaps more recently, some of the changes you made in your life? Yeah,

Speaker 1  43:16  

I haven't a lot. today. I don't get those, like high number of requests, I think partly because of how I set up my like settings, you know, strangers can't just get to me directly. And I had to learn, first of all, something that you can do. But also that's something you're allowed to do, you're allowed to set it up where, you know, people can only you know, DM you if you're following them, for example, right? Or people can only comment on your posts if they're following you, right? Or you can block people just because you didn't like the way that they spoke to you. You know what I mean? Like I used to spend a lot of time analyzing, like, is it not being very nice if like, maybe they were just like trying to understand. And really, I just had to let go of a lot of that people pleasing, and the fear of being judged. Because when someone approaches you in a way that you're like, why you don't know me, for you to speak to me like that. I wouldn't allow it in my real life. And I wouldn't engage with it. I just wouldn't engage with it in my real life. Why should I engage with it online? Right. But these were things that I had to these are like technical changes that I had to make that also came with, like, internal shifts around this, okay, you're allowed to, but then you're right. I think I constantly speak about my boundaries and my self care. Because first, I needed myself to hear myself say it. Right. So it's first for me, like I needed to hear myself say it but then I need people to engage with me to understand this. You're not gonna get this from me, this is what you're gonna get. You're not gonna get this. And I think it creates like that transparency and communication. That is helpful. But what's really interesting is last year discovering that I'm neurodivergent And, and it wasn't a huge, it was like a huge shift, but not a huge shock. Someone made the comment to me that you've always been making adjustments for yourself. And so what were like my boundaries and what were my self care and all of these things were actually ways in which I was unknowingly trying to take care of my my myself as a neurodivergent person, understanding that my capacity wasn't the same as other people's capacity, understanding that I can do things this way, but I can't do them that way, or that certain things that may look hard for people are actually easy for me. But things that may look easy for people are actually pretty hard for me. And so I would make adjustments for myself and say, I will, you know, when we go into this meeting, or if I'm going to be at this during this book tour, or in this interview, this is how I need things to be for me to like, show up as my best. And that took practice, because it's scary to like, advocate for yourself if you're not used to it. But I so many times, I've had so much experience in the past of not doing that and then paying the consequences, oftentimes with my body. So oftentimes is like my physical health.

Speaker 1  46:18  

Or oftentimes the bike a complete breakdown and gratitude that I have is like understanding that I'm ADHD that I'm autistic gives me language of disability, but also language of like, okay, this is called like your overstimulated, like this is called a meltdown like this. And these things are normal, these are a normal part of your experience, because you're living in a world that is coming, I feel like it's coming at you all the time, and is also expecting you to show up in a way in and this is where we can go like, into capitalism and other things where we're all expected to show up in a specific way that isn't healthy for most of us. So it took practice to get there. But by the time I had the neurodivergent, like diagnoses, there weren't very many big shifts that I had to make in my life, because I'd already been accommodating myself in so many ways leading up to there. And then the accommodation now has just become like, you can do this even more. Because this isn't something that you need to feel ashamed of. This is you honoring yourself. And understanding this added layer of neuro divergence see, really filled in a lot of gaps that I had in my understanding of myself. So I talked about like, my journey with understanding myself as a woman my journeys, understanding myself as a black person, and then thinking my whole life like, Yeah, I'm in like an able bodied person, I don't have any kind of disability at all. And then finding out no, you do and it actually explains a lot of like, what your personality is, as well as what your struggles are. And that you're those struggles which have so interesting, this struggles which we didn't have the language but a lot of women are late diagnosed. Right? So if we're very high masking, a lot of women are getting diagnosed later in life. And I think, from my I can only speak in my kind of family and my culture, a lot of the ways in which I showed up which I can now recognize the fact that was autism. That was ADHD, was seen as like, something's wrong, and we need to make dua, and we need to like, do these things because there's something wrong religiously in some way, spiritually wrong with her. That's why she struggles so much. That's why she is obstinate seems like she's self sabotaging. That's why it often seems like she can't keep up. It felt like this lack that needed to be like prayed for. And I carried with me for most of my life, a sense of deficiency that, yes, came from what the world was telling me as a black woman, that you're inferior, but also came as like, you're not okay, you know, and so having this understanding and this languaging of being able to speak with my family about it, and then being like, I goodness, there have been so accepting. So understanding this makes complete sense that it's just opened those channels and made it so that they understand you're not broken, you know, and this is just a part of how you are and even for myself saying that doesn't mean there's something wrong with me. It's just how my brain works. It's just how my nervous system works. It's just how I understand and see the world. It's just what my capacity is, and it's okay. And so I'm landing at this place where I feel very grateful to Allah for how I've been made because at a personal had I not been made this way. Again, I wouldn't have had like them cereal like success of this world. I think the writer that I am the teacher educator that I am, comes from being neurodivergent Seeing all these different layers and complexities and being able to make all of these connections, but also even the places where I'm challenged, or in which I find things difficult have now become a place where I can, first of all, not judge myself as like, you're doing something wrong. But really, when I make when I make salah, and I pray, just asking for support, not from a place of light, because I'm broken, but just I need support, this is hard for me, or I'm going to do something or I'm trying, and I need that support. And it feels different. Yeah, it's different. Because it's not coming from a fear play. When you're divergent. And you don't know it. A lot of times you struggle with a lot of anxiety and depression. And you don't know how to explain why you feel that way. And when you come from a cultural background, where anxiety and depression are just seen as a lack of closeness to God, and then you feel like, Yeah, I do feel a lack of waves this, because this is making me feel that way. It becomes this horrible cycle. And then you just fit where it's now. And you know, I just feel really grateful rose that I gotten to be as old as I am. And I hope that I get to live a very long life and continuing to deepen in my understanding, and in my closeness to Allah, and hopefully sharing things that are helpful to other people, as well. It always feels like it's unfolding. And it always feels like everything is in perfect time. But it doesn't feel at the time. But you know, I'm where I'm at now with perspective, and just a sense, a greater sense of who I am. I definitely feel more at peace. And even at times where we're experiencing collective trauma right now we're experiencing collective grief, collective rage. In the past, if I was not at where I'm at right now, when I would have moments where I just feel like, I just want to cry. And I don't know why. Or I just feel so much anxiety. And I don't know why the story I would have told myself about why that was happening would have very much been along the lines of oh, there's your like, deficiency popping out because you're like brokenness, coming to the forefront yet again, you're too busy, like little monster that lives inside of you coming up, and now like, Oh, this is my humanity. This is me feeling the connection with you. This is me feeling that my heart is open and that I am able to feel and that there's nothing wrong with feeling grief and rage. And actually, it's a sign of humanity and it becomes an opportunity. And I really want to end by like saying, I want to choose my wording really carefully. I want what is happening in Palestine, Sudan, Congo to great everywhere in the world where people experienced genocide, oppression, war, ethnic cleansing, to just end right, we advocate for that and speak to that. And at the same time, if what was happening, especially in Palestine hadn't been happening, I would not have started wearing the hijab again, I would not have felt this, like very strong need to become a visible Muslim woman again, I would not be like, we're going into Ramadan, and the way that I feel about this from events, so different on the closeness that I feel to Allah, and then like, their sense of like, the greatness of Allah, but also the closeness is just incredible. And it just moves me so deeply. And I hope that this reignition that is happening for so many of us who are Muslim, and so many who are coming into Islam as well, really like relights that fire and helps us to connect that with the justice work that we're doing. Because we have to be doing our part. Yeah, but it's like, this shouldn't be happening at the expense of massacres and genocides, and ethnic cleansing. And, yeah, so it's kind of bittersweet, because I wear the hijab now, you know, I've had my journey with adapt, but I wear it with now I feel such beauty in it. And I feel such symbolism and closeness, and I also now wear it as a sense of duty. Like it's not just me in my relationship with a lot isn't me and my relationship with Muslim people around the world. Oh, Leila,

Dr. Rose Aslan  54:11  

I'm just like having I have a million thoughts swirling around in my mind with all the beautiful things you've been sharing. I so appreciate this. You know, I really think you're modeling this practice of and shaming your your unmasking, repressor and shaming but you're doing it publicly, to help as an educator, you're educating everyone who's watching you and reading your post and who needs to see this, because most people are not willing to be authentic and vulnerable online. And when you see authenticity in all of its messiness, like we spoke about it really shows other people watching that they can also engage in this is really just what we're talking about Jihad neffs. Right this inner Yeah, all that as Muslims, we work on our entire lives as as how do we understand ourselves and struggle with our ego and our desires and all of that and how do we find this balance? is really what you've been modeling for us. So I'm so grateful. And can I wrap up with one question, if you don't mind? Yeah. Before you do, though, I

Speaker 1  55:09  

just wanted to say I really credit you for creating a space in which, certainly for myself as almost the moment having what it's felt like, I've had a very traditional background, but then also like, a very unconventional life. Yeah. And, you know, I really am grateful for you creating a space in which I feel safe to, like, share all of these things, and in which your guests who are just like us also feel like yes, you know, that this is who I am as valid, who I am is worthy. Yeah, thank you reading this, thank

Dr. Rose Aslan  55:39  

you for that. And I found it so necessary as someone who just doesn't fit into the box. And I was like, we're all the other women. And there's so many of us around the world, many more to come. And I wanted a way that people can find our voices easily. And your voice is so important for people to hear. So I really appreciate you coming on and sharing it in this context, because you said you haven't spoken from this perspective before. So I think a lot of Muslims will really benefit from hearing your story stories, as well as all other non Muslims and others listening to as well. So I'm delighted to welcome to the space and this community. My last question I'd like to ask everyone has unique pearls of wisdom you'd like to share with listeners on anything we've spoken about or any other related topic that comes to mind, from your life journey from your life experiences?

Speaker 1  56:23  

Oh, pearls of wisdom, I think I want to add, just in reiterating that, because this is just it's so powerful for me, just reiterating that the roots of Islam are the roots of justice. And that it is our duty to model what the prophets who came before us also model which was establishing justice, and what Allah talks about in the Quran, as establishing justice. And so and that means, you know, doing whatever part, we're here to play whatever role that we're here to play for some of us, you know, we've been given gifts where we have platforms, and we can speak for them through them. You know, for others, it may be that our gifts are about community building, or about creativity, or about, you know, one on one, like, relationships, right, but wherever that is, like, we're here to be that representative. And I'm really grateful to like, be able to really see the connection between these two parts of my world that are so important to me, and understand that they're not a contradiction, they're actually one in the same. And it gives me a great sense of pride, and a great sense of like energy, as well, like it gives this very positive energy. And so I think the times that we're in now call that forth from us even more, you made a point earlier about the ways in which sometimes we try and make people feel comfortable with us as Muslims as not being threatening as not being terrorists, or whatever the case may be an understanding that where that comes from is Orientalism. And is a western standard of morality that, quite frankly, is hypocritical. And isn't the truth. So, in our justice work, it's not just about standing up for other people, but also about really examining, what are the things that you've been taught to believe about yourself, about your ancestors, ways in which you may have internalized a sense of self that just isn't the truth, and it's honestly very harmful, and that we don't need to, it's hard, because I feel like when we speak up now, we feel this sense of like, not only are people going to come at me, but they're going to come at me because of my faith. Or if they're women because of my faith, and because of my gender, right. And so it makes having courage to speak up even harder. And yes, it is harder. And we have so many beautiful examples throughout our Islamic history. And today in the world of Muslim women who did not fit in the box that did not fit in the box, right? And after speak about the mothers of Islam, like the wives of the prophets, and the ways in which like they were so in conventional as well, in many different ways. Right. And that is a beautiful example for us. Yeah, it's just a beautiful example for us. So yeah, just the the connection between justice and Islam and that they're one and the same thing. I think that's what I want to leave people with. Yeah,

Dr. Rose Aslan  59:33  

well, thank you for emphasizing that. And I think it's incredibly important point. And I hope people are listening here this really loud and clear, because right now we need this message more than ever among Muslims and to be able to speak out in the ways that they're best able to write and to call out and call in and to find their roles in these actions, right to engage in social justice. So, Leila, thank you so much. To honor to have this conversation with you, I hope others benefit as much as I have and less many blessings.

Unknown Speaker  1:00:06  

I'm gonna thank you thank you so much Ra's

Dr. Rose Aslan  1:00:12  

Al Hamdulillah Oh praise be to the one who showers us with Rafa. Thank you for listening until the end of the episode. This podcast is made possible by listeners like you who make small but meaningful donations that enable me to cover podcast production cost, and create a unique compilation of Muslims spiritual and healing journeys. To become a supporter of the show. Please visit the podcast page in the show notes. You can sign up for my mailing list to receive updates about my offers and my inspired writing. You can follow me on instagram and facebook under Dr. Rose Aslan or visit my website compassion flow f l o w.com. If you're walking the healing path, and would like support along the way, I offer intimate, safe spaces in one on one and group settings for people like you to create a life vision that helps you thrive, build new habits. Learn to entertain yourself, build and maintain sacred boundaries. Reclaim spirituality on your own terms, deprogram yourself from being conditioned in a patriarchal society. Connect with your inner knowing and wisdom and more. All with a Rama centered and trauma informed approach.