E5: Just talk to each other with Ravleen Beeston

Can you imagine working at a tech juggernaut like Microsoft for 17 years, navigating the ever-evolving terrain while staying authentic to your cultural roots? Well, get ready to meet someone who has done precisely that. Our esteemed guest, Ravleen Beeston, opens up about her inspiring journey, sharing valuable insights into finding fulfilment, embracing opportunities, and managing the challenges that come with a long tenure at one of the biggest tech companies in the world.

Ravleen's rich cultural heritage, coupled with her impressive professional accomplishment, offers a fascinating look into the world of leadership, identity, and work at Microsoft. Raised in Gravesend, a small town in Kent, Ravleen's journey to the tech industry was influenced by a love for physics and a strong desire for financial independence. A Punjabi woman with roots in Iran, she offers a compelling perspective on internalized prejudice and assimilation in the professional world. It's a conversation that will make you question, introspect, and perhaps even challenge your own perceptions.

What makes this episode truly enriching is Ravleen's open-hearted discussion about her tenure at Microsoft. She provides invaluable insights into managing knowledge gaps, training teams, and prioritizing tasks, shedding light on Microsoft's unique performance ratings and how authenticity and cultural identity can inspire and influence in an unexpected way. So, if you're seeking a dose of inspiration, a broader world-view, or practical wisdom from a seasoned tech veteran, look no further. Listen in and let Ravleen's journey motivate you to carve your own path in the tech landscape.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I started these conversations to discuss leadership, mentorship, growth so much more voices you may not have heard from before. I hope the conversations inspire you, motivate you and give you something to think about this leadership in colour. For myself, shazik Bah, is supported and powered by MEPHAR. Welcome to Lead in Shipping Colour. Really, really excited to have my guest here today, Ravine Beeson. It's been a long time coming. I've tried to get her on the podcast. She is a friend to many, but I think where I'd really like to start the conversation is that name, because it's usually a great story behind the name. So, ravine, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, shaz.

Speaker 2: 0:49

I'm so, so glad to be here, so thanks for having me on my name. Where's my name come from? It's fairly unusual. Although I'd never met anybody with my name until I went to university and the girl living in the halls of residence two floors below me, which was amazing we did become friends. My name is so.

Speaker 2: 1:08

My parents were actually born in Iran, although they were Punjabi, and then subsequently moved to India a little bit later, so my name has some Persian history to it as well. It's meant to mean delicate. This is what my mum told me, but I don't know if I believe that or not, because I think I am anything, but I think it's a nice story. Yeah, so my parents chose the name in the very traditional way. After I was born, went to the Gurdwara, got the first letter from the first paragraph that the priest read in the Guru Granthab, and it was an R and that was my name. But interestingly, most people at home call me Lina. That's my nickname. But at least my nickname bears some resemblance to my actual name, whereas it's quite generally. All the people in my family have a completely different nickname that is not at all related to their actual name. So I'm glad about that.

Speaker 1: 2:06

That's something that I haven't spoken about before, but it's so true that amongst South Asians and I'd say it's mostly Sikhs and Gujaratis, right, but I don't think I'd ever met so many Pinkies, for example. I don't know if you know, but there are so many?

Speaker 2: 2:21

No, but seriously, my brother's names are Danny and Ricky right, which is not their actual names and is the least Punjabi names you'll ever have heard in your lives. Their actual names are Appinda and Menindepal.

Speaker 1: 2:33

Wow, and those are great names. By the way, on our side we've got a Simon, a Michael, a Philip, a Janet, and the list goes on. So when I was introducing them to my wife, she was super confused. It's a bit of a pun, though, right Like it's probably a thing.

Speaker 2: 2:47

What becomes really interesting is I married somebody who I had met through work and so he only ever knew me as Rav Lim or Rav. Once he met my family and all my close friends who don't know me from a professional or school standpoint, or call me Lena, and he's massively confused. He's like well, he said, what do you want me to call you then? When we're, you know, just generally in front of people, I call you Rav, rav Lim, I call you Lena. I thought about it for quite a while, because I find it really weird if the wrong group of people call me the wrong name, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 3:20

Like, if anybody from work or a uni friend called me Lena, I think it was really weird. Similarly, if anyone in my family called me Rav Lim, it would seem really strange. So I'm thinking about think about it. And then I just kind of turned around to him and I said you know what, figure it out, dude. Like just see where you are and just you know, figure it out. But it's a small print, isn't it? In the old marriage vows.

Speaker 1: 3:38

And that's I feel sorry for him. That's you've just put so much pressure on him. Now he's got to work out what to call you and what content. Okay, brine, so we've covered off your name. Now talk to me a little bit about who you are, and what do you do?

Speaker 2: 3:51

Who I am. That's a pretty big question, so I'll go with what I do. So I work for Microsoft. I am the regional vice president of sales for the UK business for Microsoft advertising. I've worked for a really long time actually I've been there, for I make jokes about it, but it's pretty special to me. I've been there for 17 years and I really I feel like I've grown up there. You know, I joined as a young, single, free thing and I got married whilst I was there. I had two babies whilst I was there. I had so many milestones in my life whilst being there and it's been such a big part of my life that it kind of makes I don't know. I feel like in some ways it belittles it to just call it my job, because so much of me has shaped what I do there and so much of what I do there has shaped me. So, yeah, I've been there for a while.

Speaker 1: 4:35

And it does sound like there is a huge part of your identity wrapped up with Microsoft as well. Is that fair to say?

Speaker 2: 4:42

Yeah, I think it is. I really struggle with that actually because you know, I think there is. It can be a bit dangerous when you know your job becomes your identity, and I try and stay really conscious of that. But it's also difficult when you know so much of it is a part of my life. But I'm also really proud of what it's brought to my life and you know who I have become because of it being such a big part of my life. And so, yeah, I'm constantly like in two minds about am I making it too much of who I am, and is that right? But I love what I do and I love where I am and that's why I've been there for such a long time. And so what's the harm in it? But, yeah, it's one that I struggle with. I think about it a lot and I don't think I've quite worked it out yet.

Speaker 1: 5:26

Well, let me know when you have. So you said that that's where you are right now. Let's go back to pre Microsoft, pre everything. What was the education like? Maybe we can kick things off there.

Speaker 2: 5:39

So I grew up in Graves End, a little tiny little town in Kent. Most Punjabi people will know somebody who's from Graves End. So, you know, really got to, actually got to grow up around a huge, huge community of Punjabi people, and so that was a really interesting experience. My primary school was predominantly all people from my community and then I happened to pass my 11 plus, I mean, but this is a time when nobody even really knew what an 11 plus was. I remember we just turned up to school one day and they were like, oh, you're doing, you know you're doing this test and so I'm okay, and telling my parents about it who you know I don't think really had any idea about what was going on and inadvertently I ended up going to the local grammar school. It was such a massive flip for me because I'd gone from being in a predominantly South Asian school to a predominantly white school and it was a real culture shock. It was, you know, those early days were difficult, but not bad. I loved it of my school and I was surrounded by some really lucky to be surrounded by some amazing people, some amazing friends who are still my friends today. But the stark reality of how different my culture of my upbringing was, and you know, having to kind of unlike how to explain the fact that I couldn't go to the pub with them on a Friday night and why I couldn't just go out and hang out after school. You know, because my mum would be standing there with a watch and if I was, you know, 30 seconds late she'd demand to know where I'd been. And so you know you're trying to live this almost double life and that's what I kind of remember going through secondary school. But I loved it and I was there until I was 18.

Speaker 2: 7:18

I went to university and I studied physics, with astrophysics at university, absolutely loved the subjects from pretty much. I had some incredible A-level teachers who made me fall in love with some of. Obviously, originally I had wanted to study maths and become an accountant. That was like my path for life. Mum was very happy with that. But then I remember I was choosing my A-levels, chose biology, chose maths, and couldn't figure out what to do. As a third subject and my career as a advisor said well, you know, if you like maths, you'll love physics. Like, why don't you just do physics? It's mainly maths anyway. And I was like, yeah, sounds like a good idea, why not?

Speaker 2: 7:55

And then, like I said, I just had these two amazing teachers who just made me love the subject. You know, I just decided that I didn't know what I wanted to be or what I wanted to do, but that, like that, was the thing that I wanted to go and explore further, and so also spent years of my mum telling people I was studying physical education outside mum, that they'd just read two different subjects. You know, this is physics, it's both. You know, have their own merit, but they're just very different. You need to get it right. So, yeah, and so I graduated and didn't really know what to do with my life at that point. I didn't want to study anymore.

Speaker 2: 8:31

You know, my mum was a single parent. My dad passed away, unfortunately, when I was 11. And so, you know, here she was trying to bring three kids up and she needed us to just go and work. You know, as soon as we, as soon as we finished up our kind of our education. And so I was at this point where I just needed to find a job and I couldn't figure out what I'd do, didn't want to research.

Speaker 2: 8:50

A lot of the work or the jobs that were coming my way were very research heavy actually, and a lot of them, like, would have meant working alone or working in a basement lab somewhere. And what I had learned really early on is that I get my energy from being around people and it absolutely stifles me when I don't have that. I really feed off of others and so I was a bit stuck and that's when I got a call from you know, a recruitment agency who happened to be recruiting for WPP at the time and we're looking for analysts, grads, so grads with you know kind of this maths or scientific backgrounds, because this new area in their business had opened up. That required lots of analysis, big data sets. And I was like you know well, whilst I'm trying to figure out what to do with my life, why don't I go and do this and earn a bit of money? And then, you know, hopefully I'll have some kind of epiphany and it'll come to me.

Speaker 2: 9:42

And I happened to be one of the first grads on the well, I was the first one of two first grads on the search team at Mindshare all that time ago and we literally just started doing Google AdWords campaigns and it was. It was just incredible I got to fall into this part of the business that a lot of people didn't know very much about. So I became an expert in an area very quickly. I got rolled out in front of clients very quickly, even though I thought I had no idea what I was talking about and just thought the whole thing was was brilliant. And then, yeah, I never left the industry. Really that's where it all started.

Speaker 1: 10:13

How do you feel when you say that story it's funny.

Speaker 2: 10:17

I feel like it could never have been any other way. I, you know, I actually met my husband at Mindshare and you know, now we've been married for nearly 15 years and I couldn't imagine that not happening. So there's a lot of emotion tied up in it for me as well. But I feel, I guess I feel really proud and I feel really lucky, because there were definitely times where I these things just came along but I was like, oh my gosh, and I just went for it, tried not to let the big scary thing make me say no to things, and most of the time it's worked out. But it's funny, it feel like when I talk about it and all of that was, you know, 20, 23 years ago, but at the same time, when I talk about it, it feels like it was just yesterday. I still remember all of it so well.

Speaker 2: 10:59

I remember the people that I have met along the way and I think what's really amazing about staying in the same industry for this amount of time is that all those people that were starting at the same time as you were are now leading right at the same time as you are.

Speaker 2: 11:15

Everyone's kind of risen up through the industry together and you just have all these amazing people that have been on this journey and you've seen that journey and they've seen your journey and now you're all working together and it really does start to feel quite like a big family. That's one of the things that I really love and it does keep you kind of in right, because you're like this lovely network of people. I've never really thought I was great at networking and I always found that quite hard. But someone be like, oh you should be networking about. I don't know how to do that, but what I do love and I think sometimes we forget that is also networking is all these connections that you're making just through your work as you're going along, and even just keeping those alive and touching base with people that you've worked with before or you've done a project with before or you shared some kind of moment with. That is networking, and that is one thing that I really enjoy about the work and the industry that we work in.

Speaker 1: 12:07

Absolutely. And there is something about networking. I totally agree with you. Networking can feel a bit daunting. I do remember being told that we're going to go to these networking events and we've got to try and make some business from it, and I think the associations with it is that right that you've got to have the ROI on every single meeting greet. I agree with you that networking is so much more than that and actually there is value in the connections, not just from a commercial standpoint, but also just from, dare I say, a mental health standpoint or just from a just just, really, really yourself. And one thing that I do is if someone crosses my mind, then I'll. If they cross my mind more than once, then I'll drop them a note and they could be someone from 10 years ago, and it's something I really would urge everyone to do.

Speaker 2: 12:49

Such a good tip Shares. I think that's a brilliant tip.

Speaker 1: 12:52

Yeah, so going back to the parallel between work and school, or actually I'd like to explore that you mentioned that school was mostly predominantly a white surrounding. I'm going to make the assumption that work was as well, or am I?

Speaker 2: 13:07

wrong. Yeah, no, it was actually. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm thinking about now the time that I was at Mindshare. I thinking about the first team that I was in. In my immediate team, I don't remember there being anybody else of color. There were, there were people from other parts of Europe in the team, but yeah, no, nobody else of color in the team that I was in immediately.

Speaker 1: 13:29

Do you think that that education, or that environment for your education, helped you handle the workplace? And I'm asking that because I'm projecting I had a similar experience. I went to a predominantly white school. It wasn't an easy education, to be fair, but I do think that it helped me feel a bit more comfortable in rooms where I was a minority.

Speaker 2: 13:50

I would say that for sure I mean the word I would use is it was easier to assimilate, right? Because I realized that I've been doing that for a really, really long time. I've been doing that ever since I went to school. And I think the scary thing is is when you're doing it unconsciously and the realization there's been a few things in my time that have made me realize, and I know that I've assimilated is that I like, by the time I was probably been a few years in work, I remember people back home saying you like totally lost your Graves End Act. You know, you don't. Although my husband says that when I've had a couple of rings I am like, as Graves End does it get? So you know. But when I hear that, I'm like I don't know whether to feel sad about that or not, because it's there somewhere but for some reason it's changed over time without me even really realizing that it's changed.

Speaker 2: 14:38

You know, I don't know what does that say? Like, what other bits of myself have I lost in this kind of quest to, as you say, fit in, assimilate, to do what I need to do to be successful in the place that I was in? And I think, as I'm getting older, I'm definitely asking myself more of those questions. And you know they're not. They're not easy things to face up to, because no one likes to feel that they. Well, I don't like to feel that I've had to change myself, and I think there are different things right around changing yourself. There are ways in which I've grown and I've evolved that I love, but then there's the questions I ask myself about well, what are the things that I've changed about myself that maybe I'm not happy with, maybe I'm not proud of, and I did them in a bid to be successful, whatever that means and do I want to get any of those things back? I'll give you an example.

Speaker 2: 15:26

There was this a few years back, I was having this conversation with someone. This is pre pandemic. We were in the office a long time back and we were talking about, like we had a few people that would they're all spoke Spanish, the office and I'm often like, what past, maybe you know, chatting away in Spanish to each other and etc. Etc. This was a while back and there were two people in just in the border organization I don't even know what team they were in, but they were speaking in Hindi to each other and as I walked past, like I felt like this little, almost like I felt embarrassed that they were speaking in Hindi to each other and like on, you know, out on the floor and I'm like, and immediately.

Speaker 2: 16:04

I was like what is that? Like, what was that about? Because I hear people speaking different languages on the floor all the time like super, like you know Geo diverse place that I work in. But why did that make me feel a bit like well, almost shudder a bit, whereas when I hear people speaking in French to each other or Spanish to each other, I don't even think, don't think twice about it, really, and I've really challenged myself to stop doing that. I've had to actively like go. That's not weird, it's totally fine. And, by the way, I can speak about the valley on the floor and I can talk about, you know, the sorry that I was trying to tie for some wedding a few weeks ago. That was an absolute disaster.

Speaker 2: 16:40

I actually wore a sorry to one of our awards evenings in Amsterdam one year but, like I changed my mind about seven times before I did it. But I don't know why I did that and you know, because we were doing this whole big training at Microsoft which was centered around covering. Again comes into this this whole piece around assimilation and I was learning for the first time what that really meant. You know how you cover parts of yourself when you come into the professional environment and how people do it. As you know, it's like a self defense mechanism to not have to answer questions about their culture or have to seem like they're different.

Speaker 2: 17:14

Yeah, I mean, it's been a number of years now where I really challenged myself on different things and go am I, why would I not talk about that thing at work? Or why would I not wear a sorry to an awards evening when I would wear it to any other Indian celebration? Or why can't I wear it there? And of course I didn't. It was brilliant. I don't think anyone even noticed, right, and so you realize a most of that is in your head and not doesn't mean anything or you know much to anyone else, but also how lovely it feels when you can bring the two things together and there's this feeling of like liberation and yeah, it's hard to describe, but every tiny little thing makes a difference.

Speaker 1: 17:48

I'm going to ask you a question that I think you can choose not to answer if you want to. I think that when you cross someone who's French or Spanish or Italian in the office, there's something kind of cool and exotic about them. And they are still French, spanish, italian, but they're in the UK. When you pass someone who's Indian, as an example, who's speaking Hindi, they're not particularly cool for us, so we're not looking at them as someone really cool or exotic. And we're looking at them either in two ways One, I thought you were English and what are you doing speaking this language. Or two, I see you as someone who's just come over. And then there is an element of stigma that some people have. I'm not saying that I have it, but I'm just saying that there is a stigma that's associated with those that have come over, and I'm wondering if that plays a part in your thoughts and your experiences of those on the office floor.

Speaker 2: 18:46

I'm absurd. I read up about this, I wasn't reading it. I'd heard it on a podcast that I was listening to about internalized sexism. I've never, ever heard this concept of like internalized prejudice. So I'd never heard the concept of internalized prejudice before. And then I was like, oh my God, this is mind blowing, because I think there are things that I thought that I have that are like as a result of almost internalized racism sometimes, and it's scary, like when you first start exploring that it's like, oh, I don't like that, that's really. Why do I do that? Why do I do that with Indian people? But I wouldn't do that with anybody else who wasn't British and white, and I strongly believe that that happens.

Speaker 2: 19:37

I'm sure it happens on many, many different levels, layers of oppression and prejudice, but for me that's the one that I've been thinking about the most, just because it's the most relevant for me and it's something that is on my mind a lot, and also I have mixed race children and so things around race are such a constant conversation in my house, my home. That is like constant exploration, mirroring the face all the time. What do you think about this mum? What do you think about that mum, always that mum and it's like whoa. So yeah, I absolutely think what you said is. There is definitely an element of that, for sure.

Speaker 1: 20:13

Here's another question when you see the new person list on a WhatsApp group so I'm thinking of MIFA or when it goes around the newsletter on Microsoft and you see that there's another Punjabi person, do you feel excited and want to go to them? Or is there an element of competition? Or is there an element of cringe? Or is there love? Is there something else? That's the first part. Second part of the question is saying all of the above, but not for a Punjabi person, but another person from the South Asian subcontinent.

Speaker 2: 20:53

Personally for me, I think, okay, yeah, there is a difference. So if it's a Punjabi person, particularly because I come from a really orthodox Sikh family so all my family, we are turban Sikhs, beards, everything you're much less likely to see people with turbans and beards in our industry. That's a whole other discussion for us. But when I see anybody, anybody Punjabi, particularly with a turban and a beard, in our office, I get really excited. I literally want to go up to them and be like I'm so glad you're here Now.

Speaker 2: 21:26

I don't know if I've always felt like that, but I certainly, however long I can remember, now feel that way Because I don't know why that is. I don't know if it's because I think we're going to high five and have all this stuff to talk about that I can't, you know, or maybe don't get the chance to talk to other people about, but I get really excited about that. Then, on the other side of like, if it's a South Asian person who isn't Punjabi, I don't think it really registers as anything different to me. I would probably just see them as I would see anyone.

Speaker 2: 21:55

But yeah, definitely I have a different feeling when I see another Punjabi in the office, for sure, so for you, tom Mohammed, sanjay, all the same, if it's yeah okay, yeah, I can't think of a time when any of those have meant different things to me, apart from, you know, if I'm thinking about right, did I say happy Eid to so and so, or did I, you know, say happy Diwali to so and so, and so I'm trying to figure out, like what you know make sure that I am acknowledging that someone's had something to celebrate recently and I would want to be asked, and so I think it's polite to ask back.

Speaker 1: 22:27

That's a wonderful thing, I'd say. People should definitely take note of that. It's lovely to be asked Okay, all right. Well, I think it's quite nice. And authenticity, because for me, there is something there. If I was to see, for example, mohammed turns up in a traditional kurta For those who don't know what a kurta is, the most crest way for me to describe it is it looks like a male dress. Right, it's much more than that. There's a lot of heritage there. I think it's a beautiful outfit for any man to wear. It's also really, really comfortable. I'm just not too sure I could wear it to the office, but if someone wants to turn up in that, I would be super proud of them.

Speaker 2: 23:05

Do you wear the kurta at home much?

Speaker 1: 23:07

No, my wife's not a big fan. She thinks that it's not reason that you'd wear it at home. But I do wear it on Eid day and I would wear it on weddings, or if I was to go to Pakistan, then I'd probably wear a lot more. I think it's super comfortable.

Speaker 2: 23:23

It's brilliant, but yeah, I guess my point being like then it's not authentically you right, because you wouldn't wear it all the time at home either. And so you wouldn't expect to wear it. I feel like that about Punjabi suits I probably only wear them if I'm going to the Gurdwara or if we're going to a wedding or a special occasion. I don't wear them at home or and so I wouldn't wear them into the office or want to either. It's opposite to you, actually. I don't find them as comfortable.

Speaker 1: 23:50

And so I guess, so yeah but I hate to think anyone else wouldn't, though I think that's yeah, but if someone did turn up to work on an office day in a Punjabi suit, how would you feel about that Someone?

Speaker 2: 24:03

I have actually seen someone do that, so I can tell you from experience. I definitely looked up. It wasn't somebody that I knew, just happened to be someone in the office and it wasn't a full Punjabi suit, it was like a Gurdwari, you know, like just the top and she was wearing it with some leggings or something. But even that, like I never really see the office and I have said, I looked at her at first and was like, oh, just intrigued. And then I was like, do I've got some really nice that are quite cool? Would I ever consider wearing some? You know, I don't know it just made me think.

Speaker 2: 24:33

It didn't make me think anything again. I think 10 years ago I would have looked at that and gone, what's that all about? But I just think I'm in a different space now where I question like my reaction to everything annoyingly, and I was just kind of a bit like more curious, like oh, is it someone who's visiting the office from maybe the Indian office and maybe that's? You know, that's the attire they would wear and fair play to you. Like actually quite impressed, really to. I always find, now that I understand the importance and criticality of authenticity, when I see other people do it effortlessly, I'm massively impressed because I know how much courage it sometimes can take. I'm even more impressed when I meet people who are like, really, was that? That was courageous, I was just doing it and I'm like man gosh, that's amazing. You know, you didn't even see it as a big thing, that's what, that's how it should be, but it hasn't always felt like that for me and so I really admire that when I see that in other people.

Speaker 1: 25:26

I think you nailed it when you asked me the question would I wear one at home? Because authenticity for me is based on what is authentic to you, right? And I do think that we're adding more and more bits of some of us anyway, are adding more and more bits of our culture as we get a bit older, because we feel maybe now is the time where we feel comfortable in doing so, because we've got to a certain part in our career. So, you see, people are going to judge you based on what you've already delivered. But for those that are coming up, who are really authentic, if they were to turn up in a Punjabi suit, if they were to turn up in a Gupta or a bug or a turban or whatever, I just feel so proud of them, even though maybe I'm not allowed to right, it's got nothing to do with me. That's their achievement, not even their achievement, that's their decision. Sorry, but there is this thing about authenticity between the two generations. Does that make sense to you? Totally.

Speaker 2: 26:19

Yeah, well, I think there is a whole generation up and coming where being different is almost like a, it's an advantage, you know, which is really wonderful. I like to think that's the case for most. I'm not going to be naive and say that that is the case everywhere, but I definitely think there is a coolness associated to being different that there wasn't probably definitely when I was coming into history or getting into world of work, just generally. I don't think it's just an industry thing and so, yeah, like I said, that's why, when I see it around me, I just I have just a lot of admiration, probably partly because I wish I could have been like that at that stage of my life and I know that I wasn't. I was scared and you know, I just wanted to fit in and not be different.

Speaker 1: 27:02

But do you think you would be where you are now if you had made those choices?

Speaker 2: 27:07

I don't know. I'll be honest, like and I have thought about it I do think that if I didn't feel that I had to assimilate, then I wouldn't have. The fact that I did tells me that I must have felt that there was a need to do that, otherwise why would I have done it?

Speaker 1: 27:23

Okay, yeah, I can, I can. That resonates with me for sure.

Speaker 2: 27:28

And then I don't know about you, but that this is when I was at school.

Speaker 2: 27:30

Like I said, I went to predominate white school and so, like most of my friends at school the secondary school were white as a consequence and I kind of had this.

Speaker 2: 27:40

I went through this really awful time of being like rejected from friends in my community for hanging out with too many white people, and then I don't know if you ever were called a coconut.

Speaker 2: 27:53

I was called a coconut many a time in you know, in my life and, at the same time, like not always fully being able to fit in with my white friends because I couldn't do so many of the things that they were allowed to do, and so, like I just felt stuck in the middle for such a long time and I know it sounds weird, but like when I was choosing which university to go to, I was very deliberate in trying to find a university that had like a high South Asian representation. I was just so fed up of just being somewhere in the middle and not always feeling, you know, just I didn't feel like I could be myself at school, but I always had to think twice before sharing something or, you know, revealing myself. In some ways and I don't think it was anybody else's fault I genuinely loved the people I went to school with, but I felt it and I just didn't want to feel it anymore, and so remember choosing. I went to King's College in London and I went to.

Speaker 2: 28:49

King's at the time, because I, you know, I knew some people that had gone there and they were like, oh yeah, loads of Indian people here at King's, loads. And I was like, yes, I just want to be around people that understand me. And so it was a real culture shock again, because there were things about that I loved and then there were other things about that I did not, and so you kind of you realised that you know, in the end of it, people are just people. It made some things easier and it made other things, you know, not easier. So, yeah, interesting, really interesting time.

Speaker 1: 29:18

I'm gonna try and resist asking you questions on that one because I've got so much more to cover off with you. We're limbs are untied, but so if we stick with you, you know, at the start of your career and of course you made some choices. Some of those were fantastic, some of them maybe not so much, I don't know. You know they've all got you here, which is a great place. What would you more advice would you have given to yourself at the start of your career?

Speaker 2: 29:42

I spent a lot of time in my earlier years second guessing myself and asking myself oh, do I belong here? You know, should I be at this table? Should I say that thing? Should I tell them that what they're saying is a load of BS and actually what we need to be doing is this thing over here? I just wish I hadn't spent so long having all those conversations in my head and actually spent more time using my voice, because I think, you know, and somebody along the way in my career gave me some incredible advice that really stuck for me and has always stuck for me.

Speaker 2: 30:17

I was talking to this individual, somebody really, you know, amazing in our industry, and I was saying to her like you know, sometimes I think, like ex-position that I've been at the time is because, you know, I'm this brown woman, I'm also a parent, you know I tip all the boxes and so you know it made sense to put me in that position. And I'm going on and on and on and she just looked at me and she was like why do you care? But why are you spending so much time and energy thinking about why you're there? Because the position that you're in gives you the privilege of this, this voice that you could actually be using to help and support and just do good. But what if you can flip the narrative in your head and go right, well, who cares how I got to this table? And she said because guess what? The other many, many people that got to that table through their connections or their friends, or because their parents knew somebody who gave them an opportunity, did not sit there and go. I wonder why I'm here. They just took the opportunity and then made the most of it to just do that. Stop thinking about why you got there, accept that you're there. It's a great place to be and now use your voice in the way that it was always intended to be used.

Speaker 2: 31:25

And she said and if it makes you feel better, like, do good in the world with it, like you know, help others to rise, and but it doesn't have to just be about that. Just do it because you're bloody good at what you do and you want to be successful. It's okay. It's okay to just want that for yourself. And it just really changed how I viewed so many situations and positions that I was then in. After that, we're just stopped thinking about why, how, and just be like right, I'm here, what do I want to say? What do I want to make sure I get out on the table? What do I need these people to hear from me and then move on? I wish I'd started doing that earlier in my career than I did I think that's brilliant.

Speaker 1: 32:01

Honestly, I think that's brilliant. Your story in particular is really um, really stays with me because of the value that you bring to the position that you're in, and I think that's that's a fantastic thing to do. So it's not just about questioning should I really be in this place? Should I be given this opportunity? Should I get? I've got it now, what do I do with it? Which, let's be honest, those who'd been in the position beforehand wouldn't have, may not have. I should say, rather, ask those same questions or put that on themselves to do something good with it or do something valuable with it yeah, and I think a thank you for that shares.

Speaker 2: 32:37

But I also think, you know, we don't always have to carry the weight of doing all the good, you know, because it's a lot. You know, it's a lot to put on every person of colour who already has had a journey to get to where they've got to get to and and like that's what I loved about what she said to me in that time was like you know, if that makes you feel better, you should do that stuff. But it's okay to just want to be successful and you know, like, get all the the things that you wanted to get, don't? You don't need to feel guilty about that. And I do think that there's also this, sometimes this this kind of guilt of particularly when there's not as many people who look like you in your positions like feeling almost like well, why? Me, you know, why did it happen to me? And the like. Just stopping that thinking it's, it's a it's a toxic way of thinking in my way was for me because it was holding me back and it was limiting me in my own mind. I needed to stop thinking that way and shift to the what am I going to do with you know what? How do I find meaning in the work that I do? I think that's the other thing as well.

Speaker 2: 33:38

Like you know, I, early on in my career, I thought that my job had to be this kind of all-encompassing, life fulfilling thing and that everything had to come from the work, and I think that's the other probably piece of advice that I would. You know, I got to eventually, but it took time to get to which is your job doesn't have to be everything, it doesn't have to be this be all an end, all thing that fulfills every part of your life that needs fulfilling. You know it should be doing social justice. I want it to be, you know, doing charitable work. I want it to be making difference in the world. You know what was sometimes your job needs to pay the bills and it needs to make sure. You know, maybe there are some table stakes where you're like we are. You know I want to be intellectually challenged, I want to be growing, I want to be doing all those things. But you can find ways to fulfill some of the other things in other places, but by using what you do as a platform and and you know that's that's another.

Speaker 2: 34:37

I would say what another great thing about working for a company like Microsoft is. It's so globally widely recognized that it really does open doors for you to be involved in and do things outside of Microsoft to fulfill you that might not come from your job. You know, as we talk about a lot like DNI, dei is is a really huge passion area for me for many reasons. You know my upbringing because of the things that I've seen and the journey that I've had, and all of that doesn't have to come from Microsoft. But what it's done is it's always given me a platform, open the door to do it in other places outside of work. And so for the past, you know, 13 years. Now 12 years, 12, 13 years I sit on the board of a South Asian theater production company called RIFCO incredible, they're all about. You know they've been around for 21 years in the UK. They do a number of South Asian theater productions, released their first film last year. But working there is all about bringing diversity into the arts in the UK and promoting British Asian talent, bringing it into the mainstream.

Speaker 2: 35:44

And I'm not going to get that out of my job as regional VP of ad sales in the UK, right, but it doesn't have to come from there, but my position there, or being part of Microsoft, helped me get onto the board because I can bring a unique view that they were looking for, and so I get to fulfill a part of myself that needs to be fulfilled through something that is related to my work but is of my work.

Speaker 2: 36:08

Um, it sounds. I now I feel like I've might have over talked it, but you get the point like it. Everything doesn't have to come from the job. You can still enjoy your job and love what you do and find other things that can help fulfill some of the gaps, and I wish I'd known that at some points of my career where I would get frustrated because you know the job didn't give me all the things that I needed, and understand that you can go and get those from other places yeah, I think you know you shouldn't feel guilty about enjoying what it is that you do and you shouldn't feel guilty about the position that you're in.

Speaker 1: 36:39

And if there is an opportunity to do something good and that's one of your values go for it. And if you've got an opportunity to splurge on something fancy, then do it right. Just do what makes you happy. Okay, so getting back to the job then. So I know you left the office. I'm getting you back in the office now. What's going on? What's going on at Microsoft? What's going on with your role at the moment?

Speaker 2: 37:03

At the moment what's not going on? The big thing, I mean what's huge at the moment for us is that we are we're predominantly known, or certainly outside the business. For a long time has predominantly been known for Bing and our search engine and you know, over the last 12 to 18 months we've gone from that to now being. You know, we've got a foothold in social with LinkedIn, we've got native, we've got programmatic. Since our acquisition of Xander, we've got gaming is becoming a bigger part, we now have retail media as part of our portfolio and then, of course, recently CTV with Netflix, and so it's a lot.

Speaker 2: 37:42

Right to the breadth of what now my role, my team, my organization, as an ad business, our role has just suddenly exploded over the last 12 to 18 months and it's damn exciting.

Speaker 2: 37:56

But you know it's also just figuring out how to bring that all together for clients and you know the industry is going through a really interesting phase. You kind of got businesses who are feeling the strain and efficiency is like the big thing, and so taking all of that and figuring out what these real challenges for businesses are and how we're going to work with clients and understanding that and helping them to deliver what they need. It's a time like no other that I've actually experienced in my 17 years there, particularly since the new Bing was released with chat GPT, back in kind of February, march. That was a real like pivotal moment for our business. So yeah, just lots of excitement, lots of new things, lots of evolution going on, tough leadership challenges. You know, even when the evolution is exciting, there's a leader managing people through that amount of change. It demands a lot of everybody, you know it demands a lot of everyone. So that's work right now.

Speaker 1: 38:50

Just feel a little bit like you went to the sweet shop and you said I'll have one of everything. Right, microsoft had a lot going on always. There's always something going on at Microsoft. But, as you mentioned being linked in gaming component as well, xander, then that like fantastic deal with Netflix. There's a lot there under one roof for you to get your head around. How are you handling any knowledge gaps or training for your team? Because, again, you've just been given all these suites in one go. How'd you prioritize?

Speaker 2: 39:22

I think prioritization regardless of how much you have is always a challenge, right so that that is ongoing.

Speaker 2: 39:28

That's not anything new, I think.

Speaker 2: 39:30

From the perspective of training and ensuring that people feel comfortable with the changes, the great thing about a lot of what we're doing is that specialists and experts have come into the organization as part of many of those partnerships or those acquisitions, so the knowledge is all there.

Speaker 2: 39:46

It's about making sure it's being shared and making sure it's done in the right way.

Speaker 2: 39:49

It's about us setting ourselves up so that people are able to leverage and collaborate with each other, and you know, one of the big values at Microsoft is around leveraging others and helping others to be successful.

Speaker 2: 39:59

So you know, we have a very I don't know how unique it is now, but when it first launched it was quite unique where we have these kind of performances marked against these three bubbles. So it's about individually, what you contribute, as well as how you contribute to the success of others, as well as how you utilize and leverage others to be able to do your job better, and you have to be able to show that you have actively participated in all three of those bubbles to be able to get to 100% of any kind of performance attainment, bonus payment at the end of the year. And so what that does is it really motivates and pushes people constantly be collaborating, talking to others, sharing knowledge, sharing ways of doing things, and that is really helping us right now. Right, everybody is working together as one team to do the best that we can do for our clients, for their businesses, and you know what part of it we're learning as we're going along.

Speaker 1: 40:53

I think learning as we can go, as we go along, is something I can certainly resonate with. We at Critter Acquired Ipon Web and we are certainly picking up a lot of insight from those that are joining the fold. Those three bubbles that you mentioned, I think, are a great idea. To be honest, it does feel like that would help accelerate some of that within various organizations not just ours, but I should say for sure I think things are going pretty well, Okay, great. Well, look, Ravine, it was really really lovely to have this conversation with you.

Speaker 1: 41:23

I like to try and wrap these conversations up with a little bit of a bow and a statement, but there are quite a few nuggets there, right? So, using your voice, I thought it was a particularly pertinent one. I think that's really really important the fact that you're in someone's in a particular place. They're there, enjoy it and use it as a platform if they want to. I think the fact that the job isn't everything is important as well. I personally take away from the fact that if your personal color authenticity is maybe defined differently based on where you are, so you're sort of growing in it. Which one? I've given you a lot there? Which one do you think sums up the conversation.

Speaker 2: 42:05

We've gotten in so many different directions, Shares I don't know if there's anyone that sums it all up. I mean, the only thing I would say is that just acknowledging that everyone's journey is so different and just talk to each other that's another thing that I wish I'd done a little bit more when I was earlier in career. It's just talk to more people openly about their journey, and every time, from the outside, journeys can look so simple and easy, and then you start talking to somebody and you're like wow, wow, I did not know all the obstacles, the hardships and just everything that anyone's had to go through to get to where they are. And generally my learning has always been no one has it easy. Everyone's journey is different and there's always something to learn.

Speaker 2: 42:56

And so, yeah, I wish I had spent a bit more time rather than sitting on the edges going oh, I bet that was easy for some, so why can't I just do it like that? They managed to just have in a conversation and having the courage to email someone and say I'd love to just go have a coffee with you. I really admire what you've done and I just want to hear your story. I mean, who doesn't want to talk about their story?

Speaker 1: 43:15

No, I'm trying to build a whole podcast series.

Speaker 2: 43:18

I know I mean you've got it nailed. Shares.

Speaker 1: 43:20

Brilliant. I think talk to more people is a fantastic little bow to wrap this one up. Very thank you again for your time. It's been great to have you on the podcast.

Speaker 2: 43:28

Oh, thank you, shares. It's been a pleasure, as always.