E6: It’s all about empathy with Darren Sital-Singh

What does it mean to be authentic in the creative industry? How does one navigate the tricky path of maintaining individuality while fitting into an industry notorious for its lack of diversity? Join us as we delve into these questions and more with Darren Sital-Singh, the Managing Director of UK agency Studio Pi. Darren shares a heart-warming journey of self-discovery, identity struggle, and overcoming imposter syndrome. His candid insights will resonate with anyone who's ever felt like a misfit in their professional field.

We shift gears to an enlightening discussion about the lack of diversity in the creative industry and the barriers faced by individuals from underrepresented backgrounds. Darren shares his experiences in commissioning over 350 pieces of artwork, highlighting both the challenges and opportunities in promoting talent from diverse backgrounds. We also tackle the burning issue of representation and diversity in leadership roles and apprenticeships, the efforts made towards inclusivity, and the need for long-term change to support and retain talent.

To wrap up our discussion, Darren offers wisdom on establishing relationships and finding mentors in the creative industry, emphasizing the importance of a supportive network for personal and professional growth. He shares invaluable advice on navigating communication styles, finding suitable networks and organizations, and the power of empathy in building successful relationships. This is a conversation you wouldn't want to miss, whether you are a newbie in the creative field or a seasoned professional looking to recharge your approach to leadership, authenticity, and success.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I started these conversations to discuss leadership, mentorship, growth so much more voices you may not have heard from before. I hope the conversations inspire you, motivate you and give you something to think about. This leadership in colour. For myself, shazik Bah, is supported and powered by Mipha. Hello and welcome to the next episode of Leadership in Colour. Super pleased to have my guest here today, darren Cetal Singh, who's the MD of StudioPie, the UK agency. Darren, I'm going to ask you two questions to kick this off with. One is tell me a little bit more about yourself and StudioPie. And the second, which I'll ask everyone give me the story behind your name.

Speaker 2: 0:50

Oh, behind my name. Well, first, thank you for having me so very pleased to be on. So, yes, I'm Darren Cetal Singh, managing Director of StudioPie. Studiopie is an artist management agency that promotes diversity and inclusivity through the representation of photographers and illustrators from underrepresented backgrounds. So there was a government survey off the back of BLM like many, many surveys, but probably late or early 2022, all party survey that identified women, people of colour, those with from a working class background and those with a disability as being overtly and grossly underrepresented within the creative industry. So we set the agency up to try and address the lack of diversity and commissioning of photography and illustration. So we are owned by New UK. They have been extremely patient and supportive parents, if you like so we service them from commissioning amongst a lot of other commercial jobs and editorial jobs. So it's rewarding and probably the first job that I've had, the first role that I've had in my career. That speaks to, I suppose, the values and the priorities that I have in my life, certainly in the last three years.

Speaker 2: 2:12

The name the name is. You know the name causes me trouble. I don't think that's necessarily fair, but the name is obviously sort of Indian in its ethnicity and its originality is broken down in two parts, from what I understand, seeing obviously being quite familiar name and sit down being a first name, I think I was once told. But my background is, I mean, I was born in the UK, I was born in British architecture and my dad was born in Jamaica, and so really all I know is generations from Jamaica. So I probably will classify myself as Indo Caribbean, which, incidentally, having just filled out the Meefa second part of that survey form, isn't an option on that survey. So, nikki, can you get that amended please, if you listen to this or when you listen to this, but it's only something that I've recently started to identify with, that I would have before just said Gwich's.

Speaker 1: 3:06

Caribbean. Firstly, darren, nikki is obviously going to listen to this. Right To think that Nikki even has an option. Okay, and for anyone that doesn't know who Nikki is, nikki is the general manager of MIFA. If you're not a member of MIFA and you can be a member of MIFA, then you should. Okay, so Indo-Caribbean, that's the background, I think so.

Speaker 2: 3:28

yeah, I don't think it's a regular term, but it's a term that I've decided to start using because clearly the name has Indian heritage. But I have no Indian. Well, I suppose traditional Indian culture in the way that I was brought up. There are values that probably shared between Caribbean and Indian cultures, but I grew up with a very much a West Indian and Jamaican upbringing. So maybe Roti's every now and then, but Patties, goat curry, akin's salt fish, sardines and tomatoes, fried dumplings, boiled dumplings, so that if we're defining some elements of culture via food, it was leaning towards that.

Speaker 2: 4:12

So, yeah, I sort of struggle with, quite rightly, people come up and go, huh, you must be Indian. I feel a bit of a fraud. I'm not, I'm not, but it's something that I'm interested in exploring. And my mentee today, actually, when I met her this morning, she mentioned that she knew someone who was involved in understanding how your ethnic upbringing and your cultural upbringing affect who you are today and how you operate today. So I'm quite. You know, I've done some therapy, I've done some counselling, so I'm quite interested in that sort of subtle shift into looking into the cultural influences as to why I behave and how I think today I'll let you know how it goes.

Speaker 1: 4:54

Yeah, please do. We'll get you on a follow up. Yeah, be interested to hear more about it. My immediate question and thought is around authenticity, because if we stick with the heritage component, the heritage is one part of you. The fact that you're from the UK and London is one part of you. Parents another part, and then, of course, your role at work and your relationship with work. How important is authenticity?

Speaker 2: 5:18

for you. I'd say it's important as an initial reaction now, as a response to that question, as a sense of responsibility to the term and to the idea of authenticity following the summer of 2020. But if I'm honest, I struggle with the term authenticity, like I don't know necessarily what that means for me. And I've had this conversation In fact we were going to do a debate at news that sort of discussed what is authenticity and is it useful in your career? Like how useful is it to be truly and 100% authentic? You know, if there are certain things that I do in my private life that don't necessarily lend itself to being socially acceptable or cool within a work environment, am I offering that? Is it going to affect how I am viewed? So you know I have some questions around authenticity In general.

Speaker 2: 6:12

Personally, I mean, I suffer from imposter syndrome, I think in nearly every category you could possibly ask. So I don't necessarily feel I belong in a Black Caribbean community. I don't feel I necessarily belong in an Indian community or a Southeast Asian community. I struggle with the idea that I'm from London when I'm from Hertfordshire by Living Walsham Stores. So I don't feel like I really belong to the counties. So I think wherever there's an opportunity for you to decide which tribe you might belong to. I'm struggling to really work out where that is.

Speaker 2: 6:45

I come in the creative sector. Now, you know, you'd argue, I'm not necessarily within media. I'm in creative services, but my background and my career has been very firmly in media and publishing. So now I feel the elements of being an imposter syndrome within the creative sector. When I'm walking into ad agencies I feel like, no matter what I'm doing, I always feel like I'm not necessarily meant to be there or I'm going to get found out, which then makes it feel like it's very difficult to be truly authentic in any of those given moments. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 7:15

It makes sense and I think that, from my perspective, it feels like you're painting a picture of almost like a man on an island, right, like you're not part of any particular tribe, and the reality is that, in my perspective, I think you're part of a huge tribe of people who don't know where they belong, or they belong to many places. Does that make sense to you? Yeah, that makes sense?

Speaker 2: 7:38

Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, in the sense that there are probably lots of other people who feel the same way, right, Absolutely, I feel the same way.

Speaker 1: 7:44

I feel the same way. So my family are Southeast Asian. I remember going to Pakistan as a young child and people thinking I was Canadian for some reason I don't know if my accent gives something away there. And then you're in the UK or London the school that I went to there were race issues that I mean kids can say funny things, can't they? So you always feel a little bit like it. Yeah, exactly, you can feel like a bit of an outsider. And then you come into this industry and there's things that you can face if you've been there for a while, although hopefully the next generation, not feeling that makes it feel really old when I say next generation, but anyway. But you know, the reality is that there is a component of not fitting in anywhere which could mean that you fit in everywhere.

Speaker 2: 8:29

Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, I can, I can, I can agree with that, and I think what that makes me think is I've had to be, I suppose, part chameleon, or maybe not even part chameleon. I've had to embrace and adopt the skills of chameleon right, because it's felt slightly outsider nearly at every point. I can't really remember too much about junior school, other than that I remember it being fun. But secondary school was just an absolute eye opener, with like kids coming from all areas who were just physically bigger than me, cleverer than me, smarter than me, funny than me, and you just like whoa, whoa. What an introduction to how competitive life is in secondary school. And then in that secondary school it was a really, really good one. It was a day Madison's and potters bar, which is now. I don't think I would get in unless I was in the catchment of that street. So we were very, very lucky.

Speaker 2: 9:16

At the time I was one of, I think, three brown kids in a year of 180. And then, even then I don't really remember. I remember like one above me. So again, you got to try and fit in there. And I remember having some friends because they know there's a renaissance of like blur and then a way to just having a moment. I remember like feeling like I had to listen to blur and away since and sort of indie pop and really what I wanted to listen to was hip hop, r&b, but none of my friends listened to it. So it sort of got shamed in a way and that music meant I had to sort of listen to it on my own or with family, which creates a different feeling on that music then being with your friends and I never really had that connect and it's only recently start to feel confident after mention that to some of them now. But you could listen to anything inside. Yeah, probably could have, but at the time it didn't really feel like anyone would have wanted to have listened to that. So again you're feeling like you've got to fit in university.

Speaker 2: 10:09

I was in Leeds, you know. Again, it was quite eye and eye for me separate myself and family etc. So I had a proper job joining News UK or News International as it was, as a sales exec and they were just all rugby, cricket, loving sales people, good people, very, very talented, great at what they did, and I learnt a lot. I owe a lot to them in terms of how the discipline and the structure that I applied to my work now, but I couldn't say I was anything. I was anything but authentic at that point. It was just whatever it took to ensure that it didn't take the piss out of me daily is what I would do.

Speaker 2: 10:42

Well, you know, when there was that sort of what was it? It was almost this waterfall of, more often than not, like white men, having to get in touch with people, sort of apologise for their behaviour following the murder of George Floyd, that sort of a common word that there was a show wasn't there on Channel 4 where you had to go around and apologise to all the people that had done something wrong. And someone got in touch with me on LinkedIn I won't name them and apologise for how he behaved towards me. When we used to work to get like 20 years ago, I was like, was it that bad? I didn't think it was that bad.

Speaker 2: 11:09

So I was trying to reply oh, yeah, sure, okay, I don't think it was that bad. And he went yeah, because I'm pretty sure I used to speak to you in a Jamaican accent and I was like, yeah, I mean, that's not great, is it? You can't do that now, so that's what you had to put up at the time, right? So, yeah, fitting in, trying to be a chameleon and, as you said, like a different level of imposter syndrome, which probably means there's a lot of people out there who feel the same. So, yes, mifa, mifa is probably the tribe that I feel like I most belong to currently, beyond my family. You've got to get the family in just in case.

Speaker 1: 11:39

Yeah, yeah, no, and of course, there's truth to that as well. Darren's giving big thumbs up for those that can't see, because it is a podcast. I feel like that background makes you and clearly I'm not the only person that feels this way the perfect person to be leading studio pie. Right, because your clientele must have had or must have it's not the right word perhaps have had an upbringing or a background or a story that you can relate to, which means that you can see the opportunities in their background to put them forward as creatives, would you call them I don't know what you artist, sorry, yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:23

Yes, I think so. It makes me well suited to it because there is just wells and wells of empathy what they're going through. However, it probably in many ways makes me sort of quite unsuited to it because I'm not necessarily able to detach the emotional frustration at the lack of opportunities that they get with and the running of a business. So it's quite a roller coaster. It's very different to one of my own business before, but it's quite a roller coaster of emotions within a business which isn't always a healthy situation to be in. But yeah, ultimately it's frustrating to hear that there are young talent who have got talent. You know, they've got skills, they've got an eye, they've got a clear view of how they want their work or their imagery to be portrayed, to be embraced, what people to feel when they see their imagery. But because of where they grew up or how they grew up or the schools that they did or didn't go to, they just don't have access to the networks that more privileged artists do have, and it's not just about race or it's about gender. I think they're probably the one, especially with photography, social mobility is the biggest challenge because you end up sort of being self-taught and there are some technical skills, specifically around lighting, that you really do get found out on. So that's tricky. Where do you find the budget? Where do you find the money to train yourself or go to somewhere central st martins if you go into central st martins, you've had a certain level of privilege that allows you to go to somewhere like that and you come out with a network of people that you might be able to assist or connect with. And again, that's that's sort of the beauty of of what naren and nannikia sort of doing with me, for is that there's a, there's a network, you can go to somewhere and hopefully someone can connect you with someone, which we didn't have when we were going on our careers. Right, you have to find out the hard way or wait to be initiated into a network to be seen. So, yeah, there's a.

Speaker 2: 14:12

There's a lot of frustration with the lack of opportunities for them, but when it works, I mean it's just joy, it's just joyful. It really is, and I just, you know we've worked with over 350 commissions. We've worked with google, empire, sunday times, guardian, the ft, washington post. So any commission that comes in, regardless of how much money it is, just feels like an absolute win for these artists. So yeah it. I think I'm in a good position to do that. I just wish we would be able to do more and for more people and more quickly. But that's the impatience. That's the impatience almost around dei, isn't it? You're sort of, if you're involved in it, if anyone's involved in it, you just feel like you want things now change now, progress now, difference now, and it's patience.

Speaker 1: 14:56

I think there's something in there about not just patience but of course the education component as well. You know, educated there's so much time that needs to be invested in, in educating senior management and leadership and actually people up and down the organization on dei and basically the equity component. I think diversity piece maybe people understand, but the equity component what? What about the struggles that you're facing on your end when you're trying to put an artist forward? Have you, have you faced any difficulties or are you usually answering a brief?

Speaker 2: 15:30

the biggest challenge is raising the awareness of their work. So there's still very much, despite what a lot of commissioners say, there's still very much a commissioning process, if you like, that is based on the existing network that you have and that's look, that's, that's understandable, that's human nature. You grew up in a certain environment. You grew up with an ecosystem of contacts and network which define who you're able to speak with and the work that you see. So in order to diversify the number of people, the number of artists of which you know you've got to put work in. You know it doesn't just come, you've got to spend time going outside of your existing networks to find talent. So that's why the agency was set up to to surface that, to platform a lot of these artists to make it a lot easier to do. But the reality is these, these are busy, busy people, you know it. There aren't many organizations that don't feel like they are understaffed, under resourced, with employees that feel overworked right, because, like the general trend for everybody who has a job, who's fortunate to have a job right now. So the frustration lies with the lack of efforts that we feel that some commissioners have in wanting to move outside their known relationships, but also the lack of appetite for risk, and I think this is what will probably define the success of Studio Pi is people's appetite for risk, and it's in two sorts of faults, even when you're working with small budgets and I'll call out news uk in this sort of instance. So editorial budgets for photography aren't high, they are in the low hundreds of where you're expecting a photographer to travel to the shoot, have your equipment, pay for an assistant if you think you can have a system, do any light retouching, take the shots, do any light retouching and then supply the images. Right, that's low hundreds, which is outrageous for a corporation of this size. Now, the politics aside, they've got the reasons why they're doing that, but that is the fact of doing it. So the lack of diversity and commissioning at that side or at that scale is quite awkward, because there becomes an embarrassment of wanting to reach out to new talent when your budgets are so low. So that's an objection. It means you're not going out to new people and it makes it all the more easier and familiar to work with people that you know that you've built up a relationship over the course of your career because the budgets are so low as you can say oh jim, you know what it's like here, it's only going to be this, but you know, maybe you can do the next three or four and make up for it. And then so you get the same photographers getting the same commissions over a long period of time. So that's at one end of it. And then the other end of it, when the budgets are high 50, 60, 100 k, multiple day shoots, maybe multiple locations. That's just some stills, not tv.

Speaker 2: 18:12

You've got the idea that, well, I don't want to screw up. I don't want to not only screw up this campaign but potentially lose a client in this current climate where no one wants to lose a client. So then the appetite for risk again is reduced right to going to people who have been able to demonstrate that they can execute that project not just once, but only time and time again. So then you're met with this conundrum of they need to get experience. But where do you get experience if no one will give them the experience? And that's that's the problem. That's the biggest problem that we face at the moment is how do you break that cycle of familiar commissioning to give new talent an opportunity to gain experience, to then have trust in them to win the next job, and that's a discussion that not everyone is willing to have, but it's quite clearly required.

Speaker 1: 18:58

And I'm worried that the answer to supporting them is to ask them to do something for free or to. Is that right?

Speaker 2: 19:07

I'd say, I think for anyone who's got budget, that's I'm thankful that they haven't been asking those people to do it, but it will mean that maybe they get smaller projects, so that's I don't mind that. I think if we were able to talk about the mitigation of risk and therefore, okay, I understand that £100,000, you're absolutely shitting it about using new talent or someone that you've never worked with on this project, I get that. But what's your appetite for risk then? What's your mitigation? Shall we say 50K? Shall we say 40K Is any project that any of my artists or any emerging talent can get onto is valuable experience, from learning from the team, in crafting their imagery, in mastering behaviour on set.

Speaker 2: 19:52

There's so many things that you don't realise that you need to be able to confidently do outside of taking the picture until you get on set, until you realise that. So I think that they're the conversation that I'm trying to have with more agencies, with more clients, with more brands, direct that. Can we talk about a mitigation of risk, can we talk about projects that you would feel comfortable with? This, and then let's talk about that, then building trust on the delivery of executing a project and that with some people it's going well and with others there's still a stumbling block, maybe because they only have a deal on big projects, but that feels like the entry point in terms of working with people on understanding their mitigation levels for risk.

Speaker 1: 20:31

And the talent that you represent and support are people of colour, women, working class and those with disabilities. Does that mean those that don't fall into that bucket might find it a little bit easier and I think we know who doesn't fall into that bucket but does that mean that those who don't fall into that bucket would find it easier?

Speaker 2: 20:53

It's difficult. It's hard to say whether they find it easy because it is still quite a subjective view on their art. So we could go through my 23 artists and you'll probably pick out your top five and it might not be my top five. Actually, if any of them are missing, I don't have a top five, they're all my top 23. But you might have a top five and someone else might have a top five and again that makes it also complicated. So in the work that you do now and the work that I've done before, we try to eliminate any subjectivity. If there's an objection, what data led or strategic led or thoughts, insights, response can we apply to overcome that objective? So therefore we can work with that client here and in this agency and in this sort of area of the industry. It is so frustrating in the sense that it comes down to we like this one over that one and you've got nothing there's no opportunity to talk about, there's no levers or handles or buttons to push, to manipulate whether you can do that deal. And as a salesperson for 20 plus years, it's quite unnerving to just pitch hope, get some feedback, and the best feedback being maybe listen. Absolutely love the work that you did for this. It's absolutely great, but we're going to go in a different direction. Hope to work with you soon. Have you got no comeback to that? You've got no comeback to that, so it doesn't see a question.

Speaker 2: 22:11

It's probably not very fair to say that they have it easier now. It's definitely fair to say that they have had it easier for a long period of time, which is why those shooting the top campaigns and have consistently shot the top campaign let's say Gucci, vuitton, chanel are the same names the Tim Walker, the Rankins, the Nick Nights. It's been a while since new talent has come up and surfaced to the point where you're there in the top 5% of shooting that. So I think in terms of the access to some of the networks that more privileged people have, look, I have to say I went to a good school.

Speaker 2: 22:43

I went to university. I have a lot of privilege that I sit with. I'm able bodied, I'm a man, you know there's a lot of privilege that I sit with. So intersectionality is an important viewpoint on this. But in the sense of representation, there are probably 25 to 30 other agencies that a white middle aged or a white 30 plus male photographer can go and speak to, versus us, who's only set up to deal with those from the underrepresented backgrounds. So I've fallen foul, naively on my part, of a couple of white lives matter conversations when really I should have just ended the conversation in a subjective way around. It's not really what we're looking for, thank you.

Speaker 1: 23:24

On that same note, if you talk about representation in general and your experience on representation, have you seen any other struggles in your career or are you seeing any current struggles in the industry around representation?

Speaker 2: 23:39

Well, I mean throughout my career. I mean I've been at news now what we're coming up I'd be three years in October. It's been at news three years in October and this is the first time I've had a person of colour more senior to me in the whole of my career in in Don Carter, the DPP publisher of the Sun. So that in itself is, I suppose, was a big reason as to why I took the role, so I could speak to him and have regular sort of contact with him. But it's quite sad to think that, you know, for 20 plus years there hasn't been anybody that I could have gone to, anybody that I've seen above me that I could relate to in a business function, you know, in a structure where I can see that I might want to progress. So I think there's a lot. I think there's a lot of progress has been made in this. I feel like there are a lot more of those people around now, or at least maybe they were always there.

Speaker 2: 24:24

I just didn't know they existed elsewhere in the industry. You know there was something about never really having got together with other people in the industry who were of colour, right, you know. So I've known what I've started. I've known Dino for ages. I've known Demi for ages, but unless you come across them in, maybe in the context of business unlike now we have with me for where there are opportunities to to meet I just didn't know who they were. So I think you know representation at the highest level is better, but I still don't really look around and see many more than what Dom and Karen Blackett have struggling like off top of my head to name many that could be perceived as having reached the top level. So they're the sort of challenges that I've seen. Representation at all levels seems to be a lot better. Again, turnouts at events that I've been to just feels heartwarming, doesn't it, when you go to specifically me for events and like, yeah, there are, we are here, there's many people, and even great surprise when you start to find out, wow, so you are on your own business. Oh, and you're doing this and you're directing that and you're head of department of this.

Speaker 2: 25:22

There's such a misunderstanding on my part that maybe we were all just kept and suppressed at sort of lower middle management and below. But there are some really, really impressive people doing really really good things. It just needs more airtime, you know. It just means more space with which to be able to make that so that, as you, as you said, the younger generation, as we start to feel old, can be inspired by that. So you know the stuff that you're doing now with the podcast and the leadership group within MIFA. I would have loved to have had that and I would have been just so inspiring to feel like there was somewhere you could go to ask for help, to ask for advice, rather than feeling like again you know that outsider and adding to that feeling of lack of belonging. I'm not sure I've answered your question properly there, but that's my immediate thoughts on sort of representation. There's still a lot of work to be done off of this.

Speaker 1: 26:08

Yeah, I'm wondering if it's, there's no wonder here. Actually, the reality is, you're right, there wasn't enough representation of people of color within leadership and, by the way, I also served under Dom Carter.

Speaker 2: 26:21

Yeah, yeah, I forgot that I was over at News.

Speaker 1: 26:24

The legend that is he used to have a fantastic purple whistle when I worked there. He still brings that out. No, thank God, you look. Only man I've ever seen that can really pull off a purple suit, look fantastic in it. But anyway, look that side. It's not. It's not that sort of podcast.

Speaker 1: 26:44

You're right that we didn't really have representation, although I did always see Dom but I'm wondering if there's been a bit of acceleration post 2020. And now we're just kind of coming up to the edge and that tipping point where, hopefully, we're going to start seeing more people of color around the table. A little bit like and I know I've drawn these parallels in other conversations as well If we look at the framework of women in the workplace and the struggles that they face and I appreciate they still have struggles in the workplace. But I do feel like a spotlight was shunned on the issues. We as an industry or industries or, you know, the working world, has tried to support them. I'm wondering is now the time for people of color to get more of us around the board as well, around the top table?

Speaker 2: 27:33

Around the board. Wow, I mean I probably said at this moment in time to settle for, like senior leadership, let alone the board. I mean, the struggles of women in the workplace are still quite evident, aren't they? And I think you know, even though there's publishing of the gender pay gap, the publishing of those figures are still shocking, you know so public, you know it feels like everyone's patterned their backs on. Oh great, well, we published, yeah, but you published a shocking set of results. What are you doing about that? And then nothing really happens and then you move on a year before we know it, another 12 months have gone and it's not really moved on. So, yes, to a point it would be nice to have things like ethnicity pay gap reporting. You know, I think there are milestones that could happen, that could help everyone. But I'm not sure even in the publishing of that data it's going to actively affect the change that we need.

Speaker 2: 28:21

I think it would be nice to see more people coming industry, I mean, I don't know what it's like at Critio, but certainly at news there is a definite leaky bucket situation. You know there is every effort made and you know, applaud the HR team and the diversity team for the efforts made at outreach for apprenticeships, for graduates, for scholarships. You know, I think that's that's brilliant, that that works being done. But if your company culture is one that when these and maybe it's slightly disrespectful to say young when the you know emerging talent come into your business and they look around and they think, nah, I'm not sure this is the place for me, that's the saddest thing for me that you've spent all this money, you've gone to all this effort, you've invited people in, but what you're showing them isn't somewhere that they feel they want to be, and what does that say about an organization that can do that? You know, I don't feel it's very hard to make people feel included. I just don't think it's that difficult to listen to people. I don't think it's that hard to give people an opportunity to tell you how they feel.

Speaker 2: 29:28

Don't get me wrong. I've got a very diverse team and with diversity comes complexities in managing. You know different communication styles, different styles of working, different flexibility whether they're working from home or ours, and things like that and you have to be a confident but flexible manager to manage diverse teams. That's that's definitely my number one learning about having the most diverse team ever. I love them for everything that they bring to Studio Pi, but it's not without its subtle and nuanced challenges. But I think we're able to do that with the news.

Speaker 2: 30:01

But there's obviously something about the organization that means that that talent decides to go and find somewhere else, and you see that in a lot of the chatter within MIFA. You see that with a lot of more senior people leaving to set up their own businesses or to join black or brown owned businesses. So it's it's frustrating that the level of progress that we're seeing, I think, at grassroots which I think is what you're sort of alluding to is that we're seeing more of a swell, more of an energy, more of an interest of coming into our sector, but that retention of it is still going to be the biggest factor about whether to do it. What's it like at Crisio?

Speaker 1: 30:35

Yeah, it's a good question. So I would say that when I first joined Crisio, it wasn't massively diverse, but over the last four years, we've done a great job of becoming a lot more diverse. You know post pandemic which, by the way, I hate because it's been years now, isn't it Nowadays? Maybe nowadays we don't catch up as much as we used to. We're, of course, we're not reading in the office and that's media Thursday, so, yeah, so if we get together for like a media Thursday or whatever it might be, and you look around the group, I'm so impressed with the diversity that I see. I have to say and I wouldn't say this if it wasn't true we've done a great job, and I would put a lot of that down to the hiring of Rachel Schill, who leads on our DEI efforts globally. From a women in the workplace perspective, I'm super proud of our CEO Menkalka, who introduced Payparity. So yeah, for women, yeah, so it's amazing. Yeah, exactly that deserves a while.

Speaker 2: 31:44

But also, shouldn't it be amazing? Isn't that weird, isn't it? I'm shocked and I'm like, wow, that's incredible for something that should be just normal. I don't know how I feel about that.

Speaker 1: 31:55

I know exactly what you mean, but I also feel like we need to be celebrated means. So you kind of touched on grassroots. What's your advice for someone joining the organization, joining the industry today? I should say joining the media industry.

Speaker 2: 32:07

Indeed, I think it's slightly ironic given that New UK doesn't currently have an employee resource group for race, ethnicity, diversity. But I would seek out the internal groups. I would seek out support, like navigating those early days, not only of your career, where you're trying to. Maybe it's the first time that you've you've ever been in a corporate environment or a working environment. That in itself is quite a change to what the study in life, on the assumption that these are students or they're coming from a non-working background. But you know the switch to coming into working life. Just build a network around you that you feel you can have honest and vulnerable conversations with. Because, again, only off of what I was, I couldn't have any of that. You couldn't. You couldn't ask those questions. You were viewed as weak. And if you're viewed as weak, you were worried that maybe you weren't going to last or get the big accounts or get the big agencies. You know you had to. You had to show or project an image of sort of toughness and steel and resilience and confidence, which not everybody has. So I think I would definitely recommend, in reaching out to any existing organizations or networks of infrastructure that currently exist within your organization, because they're set up to help talent come in bed in and survive. And then progress.

Speaker 2: 33:22

I think it's all about getting through the early stages, getting used to the teams that you work with. The manager style again is you are at the mercy of who that person is and how they like to operate their own bias. So, again, establishing a relationship with them. But I think, yeah, seek out support and if there isn't that support within the organization, there are external organizations. We're doing a lot of bigging up for me, but there are others that you can connect with and seek out and find mentors.

Speaker 2: 33:54

A lot of people say, oh, you know they're not going to want to hear from me, but there is nothing a senior person likes more than having their ego massaged about how great they are and how much you'll learn from them if you could have a coffee with them, et cetera. I'm going to speak from experience in two ways. One, I've had to do it with people to get their attention, and it's worked. And two, people have done it to me and it's worked. So I think the more you can lean into relationship building, I think the quicker you can find your feet and start to understand where you fit me within that organization and if not within that organization, where you fit within the industry, be in my media advice.

Speaker 1: 34:29

I think it's good advice for anyone in any industry to be fair. Yeah, irrespective to media, just networking, I think, networking in general. There's this book see, if I can find it, it's for the first 90 days. Who wrote it? But in that book it does talk about your board and setting up your board and I always thought it was great advice internally knowing who sits where and who you can call upon for particular support.

Speaker 2: 34:57

Yeah, yeah, your personal board. You mean your personal board, yes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:01

And externally, I think it's really important to do the same thing. And maybe it's not a board, it's a network, it's a group of advisors. I do think that joining MIFA, or I think I know a couple of my colleagues are members of BMAR, bloom Women in Programmatic Network. Think of any others that I don't want to offend by not naming them, but there are others. I mean to be fair, you've even got industry ones right, like AOP, iab, so on and so forth, but you've got so many. We do some work with the advertising association as well, some great work actually with those guys. I think just that as soon as you get people together and you allow them that space to check in on each other, you can see a little bit of growth.

Speaker 2: 35:45

Because we're human, right, I think for so long there just wasn't. You weren't allowed to consider people as being human, like colleagues. Some of the stuff that got said my first job at NIEWS just even I don't even feel comfortable saying any of it out loud without inappropriate was at the time but that was classed as banter and, uh, bants. I can't stand that phrase, you know it brings a trigger. It's so triggering for me in terms of what bants was at that time. So just culturally, just being able to feel comfortable and to build a network where you can build your confidence before anyone else tries to sort of smash it or dent it or take it away Because it's hard enough, like work is hard enough. It's called work for a reason, right, it's already challenging enough. So ensuring that you can do it with good people around you inside or outside the organization is just yeah it's crucial to development and it's just so much more.

Speaker 2: 36:37

The industry is so much more set up to helping people understand each other as humans. You know what do they need. How do you communicate? You know, I mentioned we mentioned, obviously one of the selection criteria for the agency being living with this disability. But the clarification on that is is visible or non. You know the idea that people digest and ingest information in different ways, that the communication styles are different.

Speaker 2: 36:59

You know, I remember going on a training course with the leadership team at shortlist. It was. I think it was a two day thing and the first morning was all about understanding each other's communication styles, because at the time I think we were probably I don't know a few egos in the room, probably feeling like we didn't need to do that or this is my way, etc. Etc. And it was fascinating listening to how people digest. You know, one is overly analytical. So if you're going to go and speak to them, you have to make sure that you've got all the data, all the information, because that's what they need. Others were just big sky thinkers, so don't bother them with the data. You know, they only want to know what's the, what's the macro in terms of the situation that you're, that you're discussing. Don't bother me with that. Others were all about emotion, so you got to make sure you're, you're, you understand that side of them. Others were all about ego.

Speaker 2: 37:46

It's fascinating to sort of understand that, and I suppose that moves into NLP, doesn't it? In terms of the way that people understand how they communicate with each other. But that's, I feel like that's being offered quite a lot more freely by employees, by team members now than it ever used to be. You know, I, I, I identify like this or I react to things like this. There's a lot more openness about that and it's uncomfortable, I imagine, for many people it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable for me as a 45 year old guy.

Speaker 2: 38:14

It's not always easy to hear that but the benefits of then understanding it and being able to adapt how you work with your team to understand what their strengths are. As I said before reference before it's a lot more work for me, but the ultimate reward is that we are better as a team. When we come together, we're much more dynamic, we're much more effective, we're a much more high performing team, having understood each other for that. So I think the current crop that are coming through should continue to educate us who are in more senior positions on what's best for them. It rubs both ways right. There's there's only there's a little bit of flexibility required both ways, but I think the more that we can understand the talent that comes into our business, the better we can help them flower grow, progress, flourish, and I think that's I think that's important understanding the human side of things.

Speaker 1: 39:01

Absolutely, darren. I really enjoyed the conversation today. Thank you so much for your time. I know you're a you're a busy man.

Speaker 2: 39:08

Oh, thanks, it's been good.

Speaker 1: 39:10

Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I would say that I'll ask your opinion on this. It feels like the theme of the message is communication. Right so like communicate with your, with your talent, be it your workforce of color or could be whichever diverse groups your workforce comes from, and continue that investment in the communication. Does that feel like the right theme for you?

Speaker 2: 39:33

I'd narrow it. I'd narrow it even further, and I think it's a particular type of communication. It's empathy. Empathy, it's putting yourself in their shoes. For anyone who wasn't sure what empathy, in a non-patronizing way, what that meant, but it's. The more I've been able to do that in my home life as well as my, you know, professional career, the better I have at understanding what that person needs from me as a manager to be successful. You know and that will uncover some uncomfortable conversations but the more I think you can be empathetic with your teams, with your colleagues, the better and the stronger those relationships will be and, as a result, all of you will will benefit from that. So, yeah, I'd agree with that.

Speaker 1: 40:12

Perfect. I couldn't put it better myself and I didn't. Good to see you, Taryn. Thanks to everyone who tuned in. Take care. Thanks for having me.