Bonus Episode: Food for Soul

This episode of Leadership in Colour presents an unparalleled Black History Month dialogue. Clinging to the edges, we navigate a series of unexpected revelations and insightful detours, led by our distinguished guests on a captivating journey of discovery.

In this special edition, we re-welcome the perceptive Aaron Adams from Criteo and introduce the extraordinary Prena Khan from BidSwitch. Be prepared to be moved as we delve into themes of personal development, the influential sway of mentors, and the nuanced meanings behind names. We honour Black History Month, shedding light on its profound effects on both individuals and communities, debating the significance of an all-encompassing historical curriculum, and analysing the financial consequences of restricting cultural appreciation to just one month. Additionally, we celebrate the deep-seated relationship between cuisine and identity, inviting you to share in this rich and thought-provoking expedition.

This instalment also features compelling narratives of determination and triumph. Listen as we recount how the guidance of a dedicated high school teacher and a challenging friendship motivated an individual towards a remarkable career in advertising, overcoming initial obstacles and familial indifference. We further explore the life-changing impact of role models and the delights of lifelong learning. As we pay tribute to Black History Month, we delve deeper into the critical need for a diverse educational narrative and consider the long-term effects of brief marketing approaches versus the necessity for ongoing endeavours in corporate inclusivity. Prepare for a session brimming with introspection, growth, and festivity.

Fulfil your intellectual appetite as we link cuisine with culture in this enlightening segment of Leadership in Colour. Join us as Aaron Adams and Prena Khan guide us through a gastronomic voyage, revealing how food profoundly influences our identity and well-being. We investigate the intricate connections between traditional dishes and personal heritage, and how these culinary experiences offer comfort and foster a sense of community. Engage with us in this savoury discourse on the pivotal role food plays in our lives, offering more than sustenance but a pathway to heart and heritage. Anticipate a conversation that’s not only flavourful but deeply satisfying, stirring a hunger for understanding and unity.

This conversation is in collaboration with Criteos BIPOC Community. 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I started these conversations to discuss topics of leadership, mentorship, growth, career and so much more From voices you may not have heard before. The conversations are raw, authentic and made to stimulate, motivate and inspire those who need it. Welcome to Leadership in Color. Welcome to Leadership in Color. This conversation is in collaboration with Critio's BIPOC community. Really pleased to say, I've got a returning guest in form of Aaron Adams, the manager of Platform Expertise at Critio, and a new guest, prina Khan, director at CalStrategy at Bidswitch. Really really lovely titles. I have to admit that, even though we work in the same organization, I have no idea what those mean, so perhaps you could walk me through those and tell me a bit about your roles here at Critio. I'm going to go to Prina first.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Sure, thanks, shaz. So I get that question a lot. What does it mean Ultimately, account management? I am a service provider, we are a service provider and our partners, whether it's on the supply or demand side, are clients, and so I'm their first point of contact when it comes to Bidswitch, whether it's a commercial issue, if it's technical, I do have someone that supports me on the technical side. But any kind of client engagement, I'd say, or account management, I would umbrella under client services.

Speaker 1: 1:35

Brilliant. Thank you and Aaron, how about you?

Speaker 3: 1:38

Yeah, thanks, shaz. So, interestingly enough, I would definitely say that my role has definitely evolved a little bit from what we last connected, I know, those months ago. It was focused on two key questions how does the platform work and should the platform operate this way and I think we've taken a deeper approach to these questions to then be able to think about questions such as how do we take our knowledge and get that in front of as many people as possible? How do we get into the platform? How do we make sure that the tools to be able to maximize their experience, these platforms? And then, lastly, are we making sure that there's proper observability in place? How do we make sure to be just out in front of any issues that could arise? How do we prevent issues? I would definitely say that I love that evolution and that there's a constant expansion of questions, so definitely happy to be back again and I would say that's an unnatural point.

Speaker 1: 2:30

We've focused on today. Thanks for that, aaron. I really appreciate that, appreciate you walking us through the evolution of your title. I got a question that I kick off all of the conversations with, and that is tell me about your name. So we had a little bit of a giggle off camera before about your names, but you weren't aware that I was going to ask you the question. Sabrina, tell me, tell me about your name.

Speaker 2: 2:55

How much time do we have, all right? Well, I'll start with my first name. So my legal first name is DePrena and there's a whole story that my mother claims she put into my name and, as a Muslim, names are very important. So we had a whole conversation about at one point I wanted to change my name and she convinced me that I shouldn't and she gave me all the reasons why. But my preference is preenah and my last name, khan. Folks make numerous assumptions about my background, which is mixed we need a whole other podcast to talk about that but Khan is actually my husband's last name, so but it's really interesting when I talk to folks on the phone or without camera. Even you know, before getting married, folks always made assumptions based on my first name, and I found it very interesting.

Speaker 1: 3:46

And to ignorant ears like mine, you've got quite a neutral accent, so did you? I don't know if everyone agrees with that. That's my only is that that sounds like a very neutral accent. So do you ever get into situations, or did you ever get into situations, where you're on the phone and then you meet the person and the phone voice didn't meet the. You know what they're expecting because of the name, mostly because of the name.

Speaker 2: 4:11

Oh yeah, all the time throughout my career I've had that happen. About 15 years ago I was working and this is before, maybe even a little more than 15 years, more like 20 years ago I was working at a company and we didn't really have zoom. Everything was over the phone, actual phone call, and I had this one client partner that I talked to on a regular basis and you know we get on really well. And then it was time for us to meet for lunch. So we invited him into the office for a formal meet and then we went out for lunch. But we must have hung out in the lobby kind of looking for each other for quite some time and then we had this whole conversation.

Speaker 2: 4:46

He's like you know, in the phone, you know you're selling, you're from Long Island. He's like I thought you were Jewish. I'm like, no, not. So it's really interesting. We had quite a laugh about that. But I've gotten a little bit of everything. I'm originally from Brooklyn and when you catch me, my super comfortable element, the Brooklyn, will come out and you'll hear, like a heavy New York accent, some words I can't. I can't hide, but for the most part it's neutral. But every soft in the New York comes out.

Speaker 1: 5:12

Aaron, that feels like a challenge. Do you think we get trying to get the Brooklyn out to the arena today? Aaron, tell me about your name.

Speaker 3: 5:21

I am a little bit I'm curious as to as to the guests for this event today, because there is a uniqueness to the history of the name. My name wasn't always Aaron, so for each of you here and everyone, my name prior to July 2021 was actually Curtis. And the history behind that Even patient behind the chain, it was a father's, and the reason for the change is very simply a desire to have my own path and my own legacy felt. That's actually very important, to have that as something and for that motivation, it's actually felt very free to have that kind of ownership of self.

Speaker 1: 5:57

So, yeah, long story short there. That's a long story short. I feel we need to make it a little bit longer. So what made you pick the name Aaron Adams then?

Speaker 3: 6:07

So I don't know if I missed it, but it's you changed your first name, or your first name and your surname, just my first, I actually I removed my original first name, so my full name prior to the change was Curtis Aaron here's your guidance, and I simply just drop groups and now it's just Aaron for your guidance. So it's a name I've always held. It's more a matter of agency of self on my terms.

Speaker 1: 6:31

And do you have anybody in your life that still calls you Curtis?

Speaker 3: 6:36

No, I mean it's funny because I've had I've had some great support in this transition, mainly because I think, with who I am as a person and the people I interact with on a day to day basis, I've actually been told Aaron fits you better and I'm like, I'm like I don't know what that means, but I'll take it. But yeah, I mean even for myself, like even introducing myself to people, like I've actually never tripped up and go hey, my name is so close to me to you. Yeah, Kurt, Aaron, I've never had that actually happened, so it's felt like a natural change.

Speaker 1: 7:06

Yeah, I really. I have to admit I really love that question because the stories that you get out of people's names is is fantastic. I really appreciate you both sharing that. Thank you so much. So talk to me a little bit about your early years, the bit of the story that you're happy to share with everyone, and I don't mind who wants to answer that, who wants to go.

Speaker 2: 7:28

So early years, as in my career, or just even before that that's the beauty of the question.

Speaker 1: 7:34

I want you to share what it is that you're happy to share.

Speaker 2: 7:37

Okay, so going back 40 years, I was going to be a professional dancer and I was part of bands, music, dance, anything arts from the 10. I was at elementary school through high school, but then life changed and I didn't really have family support. So I've been on my own since about 15 years old. So it's kind of hard to like concentrate on school and I didn't really have the finances so I gave up on that. But then I came across a woman in high school and not having any role models or really like a family support system. Now, when I think about her, she was not only a teacher but a big sister, a mother figure, all the things and she was. She had a career as a secretary, legal secretary, and in those days that was like pretty glorified for a woman. And then she became a teacher. And what I loved about her, she came to school as if she was going to work. So I was part of, like this business I think we call it. The high school is broken down into different houses and I was part of this business house. So she came to school dresses if she were going to work, heels, dress, makeup, everything and I just latched on to that.

Speaker 2: 8:48

And so then I decided I wanted to be a legal secretary and that's what I studied for a while sonography and I had this friend throughout junior high and high school. We were very competitive and I remember him calling me up and saying you know, that's all in the past. I'm going into advertising and at the time he was going to work this company like super entry level Jay Walter Thompson, and all I heard was Jay Walter Thompson and I was immediately jealous and I was like how can I one up on him? And I eventually got my foot in the door at an agency and I keep dating myself. But remember, guys, I started out when I was like 10 years old.

Speaker 2: 9:26

So just if you do on the math, I started at this company called DnB and B didn't got DnB, they didn't box his face, bitten in bowls, and today I think they're spark foundry. But they've had different iterations, the agency, over time. So, long story short, I had a different trajectory in terms of where I was going to be in life. Twice by the time I found myself in advertising. But it's interesting how I got here. And that friend his name is David. Anytime I connect with him, I always just attribute my career path and kind of success and finding my way to him. If he wasn't so competitive, I don't know if I'd be here. Then again I might be on Broadway, who knows?

Speaker 1: 10:08

Do you think of him fondly most days All the time yeah. Yeah, that's good, I'm glad. I'm glad to hear that, because this is a number of things. Right, I enjoy the fact that I work in advertising and I work in ad tech, but I just wanted to double check that you were happy about that too. All right, aaron, same, same question for you.

Speaker 3: 10:25

Yeah, I also had questions about your question, but I understand it a little better now. Proudest moment, I would say I'm living it. I hope that doesn't sound like it wasn't an attempt to be profound or anything like that. I truly enjoy the ability to solve problems and I wake up every day with the opportunity to do that and I love that I get to wake up and I get to explore new challenges and I think that throughout my career, much of my career has been aiming to get deeper into the puzzle that is. That is. That is. That is. That is something that I started in this industry.

Speaker 3: 11:04

I know, like I know, initially I told sounds and that was one piece of the equation taught myself to code and I got me into an optional, and then I have this comfort with and it took a while actually but this comfort with being the dumbest person, and a lot of people who know me know that I personally love being the dumbest person because I see a level of the highest, the art of being a student, the art of the learning process, that process in and of itself. I'm kind of obsessed with it and it's fun and it makes waking up every day fun Because, like, let's be real here, like no one woke up and said I want to be an art tech. No one woke up and said I want to be anything short of success, right. And then life gives you a bunch of like curve balls and side winders and so on and so forth. And then you reach, like your 30s and like, what am I doing? And you start having that introspective moment.

Speaker 3: 11:59

I can't answer for that. I can only share, for where I am in my process. The reason why I say I'm living it is because where I am today is that life is nothing more than what you decide to give me to and you operate it with a kind of blind focus on that. You'll live a fulfilled life and I've identified that about myself, right, love solving problems and I focus very widely on that. It benefits others, so I get to check off that box of serving others and you get to check off the box of writing because I love writing. So it's very fulfilling.

Speaker 1: 12:30

I appreciate that. That's quite inspiring as well. Just for the record, I did wake up and say I want to be working advertising. And I did wake up and one day I decided that actually I wanted to make this shift into ad tech. But you're right, I have yet to meet other people who have done that, so I think I'm one of a few. I like ads. My life calls me out all the time. I really like ads, Especially when she's watching something and there's an ad in the wrong place. She blames me for it, but I haven't delivered all the ads in the world, just for the record and should she listen.

Speaker 3: 13:03

But isn't it cool how you just know why it happened the way it did.

Speaker 1: 13:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ok, so it's Black History Month and I think, for me, some of the conversations that we've had on Black History have all been fantastic in terms of being extremely educational for individuals that want to learn a little bit more about the community, or maybe motivational for the community. But, in all honesty, I'm seeing a bit of a trend. That is one that I'd like to dive into and to kick that conversation off. The first question I have is how important is Black History Month today?

Speaker 3: 13:41

Who wants to take it? If I may, I'd actually like to jump in on this. First, I appreciate the vagueness of your question because I, just a few moments ago, said that life is nothing more than what you decided to be me to. So then, for me, I'm going to say, yeah, black History is definitely important, but I will say that the importance has a lot to do with the fact that the importance of me as a person needs to be regarded with the same level of equity and equality as the right of existence of another person. That is where the truth exists.

Speaker 3: 14:12

Black Lives Matter movement in America it's been muddied in the public eye a little bit. The muddiness of it was more or less escape go for the message that many other people who were not direct pioneers of this movement were trying to say that my life matters, I belong here just as much as the next person which was met with this very subtle rebuttal of articulation where it's like, well, all the lives matter. It's like I'm not just agreeing with you. I know that all lives matter. I need for you to understand that all lives includes me too. So, on the question of Black Lives Matter, black History, mom, the history becomes more important when it's under attack and the lives that play a role in that history become more important when it's no longer being regarded as an important part of why we are here today at this kind of discussion.

Speaker 1: 15:09

See that point there about there's two things. So one is I never really thought about it as I understand all lives matter. Black Lives are parts of all lives. The way that I saw it was I understand all lives matter, but right now we're talking about Black Lives and right now Black Lives Matter and you have to understand the backdrop of what's going on and the context of what's going on. So it's interesting to hear your perspective on that, because that's the perspective that I took. But at the same time, this context is very different to when the BLM movement was won.

Speaker 3: 15:45

So I hear you. Well, yeah, and the thing is, the context is very important. Think about the conversation that happens. So, conversation between you and I, let's say I were just doing Black Lives Matter, you're like, yeah, that makes sense to me. And let's say I say Black Lives Matter and let's say that this person may feel a level of contempt, not with you, but with this statement, because of what it could mean for somebody that may have wronged them X amount of years ago. And that's the motivation to respond to Black Lives Matter.

Speaker 3: 16:16

No, all life matters. Like, what are you trying to say to me? And it's like, all right, I'm going to play this game with wordsmith. Or like, what do you want to say here? I'm saying that I matter here. Do you agree with me or not? It's a simple yes or no question, and life is very simple in that regard, because people just want respect. Miscommunications are not the failure of relationships. Respect, the lack of respect, is that's where the real issue is. So if that's not something that can be afforded, you're going to have articulations of fighting for respect in many different variations, including Black Lives Matter, including Black history, and these are just going to be one of the many variations of people saying I want respect.

Speaker 1: 16:58

So you also mentioned that Black history matters when it comes under attack, and this is Black history month. To go back to the question is Black history under attack this month? Is it always under attack every February? How important is Black history month If what you're saying is that it's importance comes out when it comes under attack?

Speaker 3: 17:20

Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. I think that Black history month is under attack. But the reason why I say that is not because I think there's like somebody with pitch for attack. That's because I think that there isn't the same reverence or that it may have added another place in time by people who are not Black and also by people who are Black, and that's a personal accountability choice that we go accept our role in that to actually make an impact. Because without that, what I say is nothing more than a statement.

Speaker 3: 17:57

But if I internalize my own message and I say I'm contributing to this problem, here's my role. So here's why I'm contributing to this problem. Now I cannot say do something about it. Equally the inaction, the lack of acknowledgement of my role, with the lack of reference for Black history or my predecessors who have allowed for me to have conversations with them, have opportunities today, the lack of acknowledgement for them, their role, their sacrifice, their discipline, their character and how that was a very important part of the process of evolution. I don't face that and I don't face how my lack of acknowledgement, my inaction, is problematic. I'm doing just as much damage.

Speaker 2: 18:40

I'd like to jump in here a bit. I have maybe a slightly different point of view, and it also could very well be. You know, I started in my career before the internet and you know. To answer your question, shaz, is Black History Month important? In theory it is. Personally, I'm not comfortable with a month being set aside. I'm not comfortable with Juneteenth being a holiday that's set aside specifically just for Black people or people of color, because throughout my life I've been accepted and then unaccepted because of my multiracial background. Sometimes I'm, you know, black, other times I'm a Brown girl, other times. So, depending on who you're talking to, that may include or exclude.

Speaker 2: 19:26

My personal opinion is it should be part of history period. We don't have White History Month. When I went to school and we were learning about Columbus Day, all that Columbus did to discover America using air quotes that was part of history. So when I look back, what's disappointing is I still don't see that history in education. It's starting to creep in just a bit. But if we made it part of history, would we then? You know, not to eliminate the need or the importance of it, but it almost feels like it's important these 28 or 29 days of the year and then the rest of the year not so much. Again, if our history was part of the history that was taught collectively, I'm not going to say it wouldn't be necessary, but that would be more meaningful to me. And then you know we live in a world where there's so much into marriage and different cultures and races coming together.

Speaker 2: 20:31

The definition of Black, again from my personal experience, could mean a plethora of things depending on who you're talking to, and sometimes it can make you feel excluded if you're not Black enough. And so I would like to celebrate Indigenous people, people of color, brown, yellow, all the colors but, more importantly, make it part of history. I just saw a movie the other day on the plane about Hila, the African-American woman that her cells were used in, apparently for everything from cancer research to coming up with polio vaccines, and it wasn't the first time that I heard the story, but I didn't hear about this in my 20s. I didn't hear about this in elementary school, so that would be more meaningful to me than seeing a movie. Because it's Black History Month, yay.

Speaker 2: 21:20

What happens to my grandchildren or my great-grandchildren if they're not learning this in school, if they're not exposed to that movie or that book or part of a group that focuses on that, you know, then it's still lost. You can keep your month if you're not going to teach history appropriately. As far as I'm concerned. So yeah, that's my take on it. It's not that it's not important, but I also see it as a scapegoat. It's like, okay, we're giving you your month quiet down now, and that's not enough and it doesn't cover everything and all the things and all the people as far as I'm concerned.

Speaker 3: 21:56

I'd like to actually say that I would like to add to my position, because a lot of what you said was very, very accurate. Thank you for that.

Speaker 1: 22:06

Yeah, I agree. I really appreciated that answer, prina, because the fact is that the theme is from a number of these conversations. I've done a number of Black History Month talks for a few years now, both in the UK and the US, and the themes that I see, or the trends, are not that we don't want Black History Month, it's, we don't just want Black History Month.

Speaker 3: 22:30

I've had this thought for the longest time that the exclusion of black voices in the role of history, or humanity, or human advancement, it's actually uneconomical and in a society where the world leaders, america is driven by a capitalistic structure and the world kind of follows that footsteps in some regards, if it is financially disadvantageous to exclude a people who are actually major contributors to the advancement of human society, how much advancement have you actually blocked yourself from willingly, purely for the sake of ego self, your expensive and from a leadership perspective it's a horrible leadership decision. You shouldn't be trusted to be in this capacity. If we had established these principles to be able to make such important decisions for less, this one seems quite obvious.

Speaker 1: 23:29

The economics and the politics of it is something that really could be unpacked From an economic standpoint. You know, what comes to mind is the fact that if you have a month dedicated to particular cultures, then that is something that you can lean on from an economic standpoint. Think about the shows that come out, think about the books that come out, think about the music that comes out, maybe certain products in the supermarkets to try and help individuals celebrate Black History Month, certain additions to the curriculum just around that period. So I think, from an economic standpoint, actually that's one of the things that is supportive of the month. And then your points about, I think, from a macro perspective, not having it entwined within the history almost for me makes it sound like well, if we had it entwined within the history and the daily curriculum, then we wouldn't be able to capitalise on this community for one month of the year. Did you know what I mean?

Speaker 2: 24:34

Yeah, I can see your point, but I don't necessarily agree with capitalising on the month. You know, if I have a successful product, I should be able to make money from it 12 months out of the year. I haven't done any research, but I don't think it's Black or brown Americans that are solely profiting from products or events that happen around Black history. I'm just going to throw it out there and argue that I'd say more than half of those that are benefiting from it are probably non-Black, non-brown. So again, it's an opportunity for whoever is using that month to make money or to capitalise, If I have a meaningful product or if I'm contributing to humanity. To Aaron's point, in some way it should not be limited to one month out of the year.

Speaker 1: 25:27

Agreed, absolutely agree.

Speaker 3: 25:28

The point that I was trying to make was more in the sense of like. So to piggyback in Prina as well. If I'm able to have this spurt or influx of cash flow one month and I'm capturing these consumers, my consumers are being trained to think about me for less than 30 days. So if that happens over the course of 10 years, I've created a pattern of behaviour. So it's counterproductive to me and it limits my earning potential, but also the earning potential of others, to only less than 30 days. It's counterproductive.

Speaker 1: 26:01

Okay. So if I dump it down for myself within Black History Month, you've got a make-up product. I don't know why I picked a make-up product, but a make-up product. And within Black History Month you just happen to change the messaging. On purpose. You change the, deliberately change the messaging to ensure that you're targeting Black and Brown women within America or maybe globally. That could be within the creative, that could be within whatever right. Is your point? That well, you're making that connection with that audience for that one month or a year. Why don't you just carry it on all year round? Because there is huge commercial upside, precisely.

Speaker 3: 26:41

To simplify it further if I have a product and I'm able to make $5,000 a month on it, if I have it running for 12 months, or if it's $20,000 in one month, my earning potential was cut short $40,000. Because the earning potential was true with $60,000. Except selectively, we as a people have been conditioned to only think about this product for one month. It's not entwined as a standard of our infrastructure as a people. This is the economic disadvantage for not just black people, but people. Everyone loses, it's not some people just lose worse. That's the poor decision. This is a problem, so, but it doesn't make sense for people who love success. Well, you're willing to lose more for this feeling. That is actually expensive to you. This is this doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1: 27:33

Well, I think it's. It's more perhaps overlooked right and within Black History Month it might be a box ticking exercise, and the reality is is that the analysis has not been done that, as opposed to taking this box one month out of the year, extrapolate it and then you've got huge amounts of upside over the entire year.

Speaker 2: 27:56

I agree with that. I think it's a big part of it is ticking in the box, right? Because if you have a successful product, maybe I am exposed to it for the first time during Black History Month. But we're in the subject of makeup. I shop at Sephora two to three times a year. They have their 20% off sale. I immediately I'm always looking for designers or creators or companies that are black or brown owned, not just in February. So if there are good products out there that hold up with their promising, then yes, I'm going to buy throughout the year. But I think there is a bucket of those looking to make money, fast dollars, that will put things to market just for this month, to make the money, but really they're not thinking about the consumer, the end consumer and the long term. It's just like oh, it's Black History Month, you know, buy this t-shirt, buy this makeup, buy this jewelry, but really it's, you know, it's just for the month. So again, I think that it's just another way for certain people to come in and make a couple dollars, capitalize off of it, and I really don't love that. And I think that, going back to a point that Erin made earlier about everyone being accountable again.

Speaker 2: 29:12

I can't describe the difference of being in a workplace before the internet. When I started out at DMBNB, at any given time on the floor, I was the only one, the only one, so it was my job to carry myself a certain way. I've had things said to me, happened to me up and called the N word, and I had a choice to represent who we are as a people and educate. That was always the first route. If I had to go another route I would, but that worked 90% of the time. And so you know, I understood that. You know I'm going into this agency and I'm probably going to be the only one in this meeting, probably going to be the only one invited out to this dinner, and I I saw it as an opportunity and I was so grateful because I did have my grandparents in my life and my grandfather had a first grade education, my grandmother junior high school, and they were always worried about me going out into the world and you know what I represent or what would happen to me. So it was my honor to kind of enlighten and educate and I've had to do that along the way. Sometimes it was unfair, but I wanted to be accountable for doing my part, and so that's what I can control, that's what I could do. And so now, fast forward. We have the internet and things are easily accessible. We talk about, you know, fast forward to 2020, black Lives Matter. All lives always matter, and what was happening in 2020 was happening in 1980. It was happening in 1990 in Brooklyn. The difference is we didn't have our phones up and readily able to share. I saw these things happening. So for me, fast forward.

Speaker 2: 30:58

I have a different perspective about Black Lives Matter. I don't necessarily support the movement. I think it was a lot of rhetoric, semantics and a way to kind of distract and divide people when the bottom line is this has been going on forever, let's deal with it. Companies came and, oh, dei, we're hiring a you know C level DEI rep and we're doing this and we're doing that, and lots of rhetoric about all the great things they were doing.

Speaker 2: 31:23

Foundationally, nothing really happened. I worked at a company that at one point I was super excited, but the net outcome of what actually happened and what changed was minuscule. So, again, I think we all have to be accountable non-brown black people as well as brown and black people and this should not be contained to a couple of days out of the year. This should be a year-round conversation and I want to see action. I want to see action from individuals as well as corporations, businesses, companies. That's what I want to see and that's what I expect out of a company, out of a product, my colleagues, my families and friends. You can keep your month and your holidays, but let's actually bring about real change.

Speaker 1: 32:12

So I really appreciate that. I think that, with the backdrop of everything that's just been said, how do you feel about people celebrating Black History Month?

Speaker 3: 32:23

Kind of ties back to what I was saying a few moments ago, but it's a reference thing and reverence is important, regardless of what you're celebrating. If there's this month that exists to commemorate Black History, you want to treat it with a certain level of okay, why is it here? Now that I know why it's here, I understand it's important and now, when you know, it's like all right. Well, there are a lot of people that know why Black History is here or why Black History Month is here, so, and then it's just kind of like out of sight, out of mind things. It's too stressful. I don't want to address this and I understand that sentiment, believe it or not, to a degree, because Black History Month is not going on social media and watching a young Black child be murdered. That's not commemorating Black History Month, like that's just trauma. Black History Month can be using that as your personal New Year's resolution to take a moment to take a step back and be mindful of how you represent yourself and how you represent anybody who may be connected to you. And it's as simple as that. Black History Month doesn't always have to be educating yourself on your predecessors. It could be very simply how am I advancing myself today? How am I improving myself? How am I contributing to the present? Because I too will be history.

Speaker 3: 33:41

Maybe Black History is a bit more than what we've communicated it to be and more than the capitalistic turn it's taken. You identify what exactly it is through the reference. Freedom brought up. A very good point. Is it necessary? That's debatable. I'm not, and I'm not and like I'm purposely not going to answer that because my position whether or not it matters is actually irrelevant to what can I do with it? The real challenge that exists is, since it's here, how can I use it to better myself and others? You actually have to be a person who takes that reflective step to basically say am I contributing to the betterment of this resource or the plight of this resource? And we're all guilty of both, Like we're all hypocrites of this movement or month. We really need to take a moment to acknowledge why we are hypocrites of this, what our role is in this, and we could actually have a more positive month and even year.

Speaker 1: 34:45

So there is something in there that I just want to call out which is a lot of people listening aren't black and might be feeling a little bit confused as how they can celebrate Black History Month and also what the thoughts and feelings are of them celebrating Black History Month, because I like exactly what you said. It's beautiful, right, talking about a community, global, very important community, taking this time to self reflect. For me, as a Muslim man, it feels a little bit like Ramadan right In Ramadan, we go back to the roots and we really sort of focus on our religion and ourselves and what we call our deen right. It feels very much like that in terms of how you've described it, but as someone who's on the other side of the fence, how would they celebrate Black History Month? And then also, how do you feel about them celebrating Black History Month?

Speaker 2: 35:41

I welcome it To your point, shaz. I think I was going to make the same connection. During Ramadan I've had folks ask me questions and sometimes they come up to me like I have a silly question. You know, can you not eat for the whole month? And I'm like, no, you can't eat. When they ask me those questions, I love it. I've been in situations where, like I'm at work in the office and folks are eating their lunch and like oh my God, I'm so sorry, this must be bothering you. And I'm like absolutely not, I am hungry, but I'm looking at your pizza and your burger and I'm trying to decide which one do I have. But then I remember it's Ramadan, I can have both because I've been fasting all day. I'm excited, keep eating.

Speaker 2: 36:19

So celebrate, you know. Watch a movie, read a book, ask a question, ask a friend. Don't be afraid to engage in conversation. But again to Aaron's point. For some of us it's definitely a time of reflection and you know to use that opportunity to make sure we're doing our very best to represent Maybe it's teaching our nieces and nephews, or our children, our grandchildren, whatever that looks like. Celebrate away, but again, the bigger picture, let's not. You know, we don't have a problem with Muslims celebrating Ramadan. We don't have a problem with the Jewish celebrating Rosh Hashanah or Hanukkah and we don't say, well, why are you only doing it this time of the year, and it's not limited to that time of the year, right?

Speaker 2: 37:05

As a Muslim woman, I love talking about Islam. I love talking about religion. I'm very open to other religions. I love when it's time to celebrate Christmas. Do I, from a religious standpoint, believe in it? No, but low key, I like it. Valentine's Day, all the things. So definitely embrace it, ask questions, be there for the community. But my problem is it shouldn't be limited. And the other thing I will say too, black history must be very painful. When I learn about some of the things that happen, I almost I'm like that's, that's wow, that's blowing my mind. That's so much right now. I think it would be helpful for non-Brown, non-black people to understand that kind of you know, you guys read that book, you guys watch that movie, so maybe you'll understand a little bit more. But I think keeping the conversations open, the celebrations within reason, that there's no problem there. I just again, we need to move away from this box. You know, one month out of the year, and then you don't hear anything else.

Speaker 3: 38:09

I think I'm going to actually revert back to a thought that I shared earlier on this At the root, every single person you ever meet in your life wants to feel respected. There's no escaping and there never will be. How to celebrate Black history month is to begin to acknowledge yourself. This is like an independent exercise you can take Acknowledge how this month has attributed to the disrespect of a people. It's a very basic question. You can talk to scratch the surface there and then for any Black person that you know and like, it's uncomfortable.

Speaker 3: 38:46

And I didn't learn this. This is actually a true story. I didn't learn this until in my 30s and one of my friends, namblehack, and he, and he flat out asked me. He said can I ask you something? And I was like, yeah, what's going on? First he asked me about my name change. So then he said what did it feel like to change your name? And I told him. And then the next question was did you feel like you had to do it for? Like your race? And now it got interesting because he paused that same way, like did you have to do it because that paused your race?

Speaker 3: 39:15

He was scared to ask this question. My friends not, and I'm sure he wasn't scared Me. He was scared of the topic, the ability to have a conversation. That was regarded as taboo as don't touch it, I'm sure, and a lot of our relationships being at home or in our family structures and our friends structures. We've conditioned ourselves to frown upon having difficult conversations, so you don't have to do them. It's actually very unrealistic to think that you can get through life without difficult conversations. They're going to happen. The more we avoid them, the uglier they're going to get as time passes, because time is the inevitable fuel. And then also allow yourself to be open to hear a perspective outside of yourself. Your stubbornness is an inaction and that inaction is also fuel. It's an action. Inaction is still an action. So, wrapping it all up, it's one that is pretty both.

Speaker 3: 40:15

How has Black History Month been a thing for Black people? Because I imagine that somebody, somewhere, must feel disrespected. Engage in that discussion with your colleagues or friends and start to explore what that disrespect looks like. Empathize, would you put up with that disrespect? Probably not. Do they feel they have to put up with this disrespect? Possibly they have to put up with it. Okay, there's a problem. I wouldn't do this the way I should, and there's the equality.

Speaker 1: 40:43

Thank you, aaron, thank you Prina. I've really enjoyed this conversation. The closing tradition is one that I'm already so excited to see how much you're going to squirm over, and that is you got to name the podcast. So how would you name this conversation? I've got a couple of ideas to help you out buying, and let you squirm a little bit before I throw them out then.

Speaker 2: 41:09

Why this is hard?

Speaker 1: 41:11

It's not easy, right yeah?

Speaker 2: 41:13

Thinking about food, some kind of Taj Mahj of I know.

Speaker 1: 41:17

Burgers and pizzas. What about what respect looks like? What respect looks like yeah? Or what does that disrespect look like? Prina, what are your thoughts? You want to go with food, right?

Speaker 2: 41:29

Yeah, Eat the pizza respectfully. I don't know.

Speaker 1: 41:32

I love it so much. You happy with that, Aaron?

Speaker 3: 41:35

I'm marinating on it. Respect for the soul.

Speaker 2: 41:37

Respect for the soul food. A little bit of a twist.

Speaker 1: 41:40

You want food in there, don't you?

Speaker 2: 41:41

I feel like that's good, that's a good like baby, like whoa. What is this about? Food for soul? I could get with that.

Speaker 1: 41:49

Yeah, food for soul. Here we go. So for anyone still listening, hopefully we've cut out a whole bunch of other conversations we just had because it took us a little bit of time to get to the name. Thank you so much for listening to. This conversation with Prina Aaron called Food for Soul. Thank you, prina and Aaron again for joining me. I really enjoyed that conversation. I wasn't expecting you to go in all those different directions, but you were really open and I enjoyed the ride, so thank you so much. Thanks to all those that were listening.