E10: Your stomach isn’t a graveyard for dead animals! with Anant Joshi

Embark with us on a captivating exploration of the mind and soul of Anant Joshi, the media maven and Plant CEO pioneer. His journey from investment management to becoming a trailblazer in the ad tech landscape during the digital age's zenith reveals not just the growth of an industry but the evolution of a leader. Anant's tales of innovation and digital marketing acumen provide a backdrop for the profound personal shift that led him to advocate for ethical eating and environmental responsibility.

The heart of our dialogue beats to the rhythm of sustainability, as we unravel the connections between our food choices and the planet's health. Anant's transformation from vegetarianism to veganism opened his eyes to the hidden truths of animal agriculture, sparking a mission to amplify voices of change within the vegan movement. We celebrate the entrepreneurs and experts who are crafting a new narrative for ethical consumption, and discuss the significance of platforms like Beyond Animal that are reshaping how plant-based businesses thrive.

Concluding our journey, we examine the tangible health benefits of a plant-based diet through illuminating research and personal stories of transformation—like that of New York's Mayor Eric Adams. As we look towards a future where plant-based living is integral for longevity and disease prevention, we also challenge misconceptions about strength and diet, aiming to empower the next generation to make conscious, sustainable choices. Join us as we share these stories, recommendations, and the potential for a greener, kinder world.

Recommended content:

Plant CEO - https://www.youtube.com/@PLANTCEO/videos
Dairy is Scary - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI
Earthlings Documentary - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gqwpfEcBjI
What the Health - https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/80174177
Cowspiracy - https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/80033772
Dominion - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko

Referenced products/brands:
Beyond Animal - https://beyondanimal.com
Veggie Victory - https://veggievictory.com
Just Egg - https://www.ju.st
GOOD Meat - https://www.goodmeat.co

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I started these conversations to discuss leadership, mentorship, growth so much more voices you may not have heard from before. I hope the conversations inspire you, motivate you and give you something to think about. This leadership in colour for myself, shazik Bah, is supported and powered by MIFA. Hello and welcome to the next episode of Leadership in Colour. I'm so happy to be connected today and to have this conversation with Anand Joshi, who I've known for a number of years. He's got a number of roles, so he's a media consultant with a number of ad tech organisations, but he's also and the key part of this conversation today the founder and host of Plant CEO. Welcome to Leadership in Colour, anand.

Speaker 2: 0:55

Hey, shaz, how are you doing Great to be here with you and thanks for getting me on your show.

Speaker 1: 1:00

Thank you so much for being here, so I want to kick off the conversation the same way I usually kick off this conversation, and that is tell me about your name. Where does the name Anand Joshi come from?

Speaker 2: 1:11

It actually originates from a Hindu god that was basically it's kind of derived from the word Anand. That means happiness, but Anand with a T is actually a god who is kind of like infinite and endless in its form. So he was the one going through the universe, I guess, but still derived from happiness.

Speaker 1: 1:35

So it's the infinite and universal god. Is that right? Well kind of like one who is endless, one who is endless.

Speaker 2: 1:42

Yeah, that's a great name. Yeah, so hopefully being on a plant-based diet would mean I live long.

Speaker 1: 1:50

Yeah, you're sort of giving away all the hooks here, aren't you? Yeah, I am. Yeah, that's a fantastic name, and to think that your parents would have looked at you and said this chap here, he looks like an Anand. That's such a fantastic, great name to give you. Thank you, I really appreciate you sharing that. So let's kick things off by having a conversation about your career. So can we talk a bit about the early years and what the start of your career looked like.

Speaker 2: 2:18

Very early on, after sort of finishing university, I went into investment management actually, which was quite interesting, working with different funds and more on the software side of management of those assets, I guess. And then it was kind of the era of the dot-com boom where obviously a lot of publishers were being formed. And early on there was a publisher which still exists today in the US. It's called TheStreetcom. It's all about investing and stocks and shares etc. So I joined their UK division that got formed. So that was the first foray in the early 2000s of getting into the publisher side. So I started off with that, then went into a sports publisher called Rivalsnet that had many other sites called Football 365, cricket, f1, rugby etc. So that was when I was looking after research and tech. So that was kind of ad-serving technology. So that was, I said, you know, that's so. That was a publisher side first of all. And then I made a switch. You know I met a guy, a guy who was bringing a new tech to the market and it was a technology company around ad-serving called iBlaster, which was all about what we called in the time back in the day was rich media. So that's basically ads that stand out that are very interactive ones, that take your attention. Obviously, attention is a big thing in our industry right now. So that was the early days, if you like, of attention having these pop-ups and great animations and that sort of stuff video. So that was iBlaster and I sort of grew that. You know, I was the first guy in the ground on the UK in the UK market and I was looking after client services and then I grew that business in about 15 countries internationally. So that's kind of my thing. What I do is take companies that want to expand and I grow them. That's what I've been doing over the years. So yeah, I did that with iBlaster, became MediaMind, then IPO'd and then at some stage it got acquired by its many iterations to Amazon and became seismic. And now they've sort of sunset it after many years because they're changing their model of not getting into ad-serving, I guess. So that was the good days of sort of those early days of rich media.

Speaker 2: 4:46

And then went into video so video ad-serving with a company called Videoplaza and that got acquired down the road to Bright Cove, which is a video CMS platform, and then went into verification quite early with a company called Metrix, and Metrix was a Berlin-based startup that was looking at whether ads are actually viewable on your pages. There's a lot of. At the time, obviously, there weren't any of these sort of metrics and programmatic advertising was rising, but a lot of these ads were being brought, were unseen, and then in relation to that was issues around brand safety, product placement against content that you might not want to associate your brand against, and then also to do with ad fraud. So I grew that sort of German company in Europe. It eventually got brought by Double Verify. That's a huge business now around ad verification.

Speaker 2: 5:47

The last few years have really been focused quite a lot with a company called Undertone, and Undertone is a company that specializes in high-impact advertising. So I kind of now consult with these companies. A lot of it has been around sort of video, high-impact verification and also getting into new areas that you're into as well, like retail media that's a huge market at the moment as well as CTV and digital out of home and all these channels. So it's basically looking at all these channels that are digital, digital-only environments and seeing how effective and how these companies can grow their market share.

Speaker 1: 6:24

And did you decide that you wanted to work in ad tech Because it sounds like you sort of started off in investment management and naturally found yourself in ad tech, or was there a conscious decision at some point where you thought you know ad tech is booming, let's take a step in that direction.

Speaker 2: 6:40

So it wasn't. I think it didn't come from like being in ad tech. It was more like, I think at the time I was working on this project with this company in investment management, like portfolio management, and I was working on their internet or something, and I found the internet fascinating at the time. And then, you know, a lot of the companies were creating websites. I think that's where it came from publishers. It was kind of like okay, I want to still go from the internet to, you know, having an external facing website. That's where. And then it transitioned, I would say, when I made the switch away from just being on the publisher side to looking at technology companies, and that's where the ad tech side and being involved in the advertising got a lot more. I would say.

Speaker 1: 7:27

Got it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. All right, here's a problem that I usually face. What does your mum say you do? Oh man, I don't think she knows Honestly.

Speaker 2: 7:37

I think she knows that I work with different tech companies. I'm not sure she would say that I'm in marketing and advertising. I don't think she really asked those questions anymore. She just sees me as her son.

Speaker 1: 7:50

Yeah, there's something sweet about that as well. And innocent, yeah, but my mum at the beginning. So I kicked off working on ad sales in a B2B publisher group called Euromoney, oh yeah, but it was owned a little bit by Daily Mail. So my mom, I think she, told everyone that I was a journalist for Daily Mail. That's awesome.

Speaker 2: 8:12

Yeah, maybe not so much, but yeah, I mean still awesome that she thought you were a journalist.

Speaker 1: 8:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know what she says anymore. What does your wife say? You do.

Speaker 2: 8:20

Well, she's kind of knows the industry from. She used to work for McCann and Erickson years ago. So she knows the world of creative and you know she worked on helping brands create internet sites that McCann Erickson would use many years ago. She's now out of that industry altogether, so she knows what I do. So she knows I'm in advertising and in ad tech and I work a lot with media agencies and brands and publishers and tech companies and you know being quite vocal in the industry.

Speaker 1: 8:51

I'm so happy to hear that your wife knows what you do. Just a little note to my wife to take notes so she's not from the industry. Okay, all right, so fantastic. So you've got this great career in ad tech and you know within the media industry. But the bit that I want to talk to you a little bit about today was your podcast called Plant CEO. Is it fair to call it a podcast? Is your podcast also on YouTube? It's, you know, it's a great bit of content there.

Speaker 2: 9:17

Yeah, it's mainly a YouTube show, I would say at first. So it's like a it's definitely a video environment show, and then it also gets exported into audio onto all the podcast platforms. So yeah, so we started sort of that journey, if you like, with Plant CEO, based on, I guess, eating habits, I guess. So I was raised a vegetarian, didn't have any sort of eggs, so that's kind of like, you know, you get some vegetarians that would eat eggs. So no fish, no meat, no eggs. And then about five, five and a half years ago, I watched a video called Dairy is Scary and I shared this with you as well. This video, so it's basically like a five minute video of the dairy industry. And then I watched this video and I thought, well, I'm consuming a lot of milk and cheese. That's the main thing that I would have in dairy and it was like it's not great consuming this and you know, as humans, we're the only species that drinks milk from another species and it's a bit wrong. And then, when I watched that video, I started doing more research, watching more documentaries, like what the Health Calspiracy Earthlings is, one called Dominions there's so many great videos and content out there on Netflix as well, but yeah. So I started then doing a lot of research into this and I thought, well, I don't feel comfortable. Supporting that.

Speaker 2: 10:44

Industry is basically, and normally when people have that sort of insight, they'll probably see it in a few ways. It could be either for the animals, it could be for your own personal health, or it could be for the environment and sustainability, and normally I guess, when it's something that's outside of yourself like for me personally, it was for the animals, like I didn't wanna see. You know, these animals suffer, like, especially when you look at the dairy industry. You know cows are basically have to be impregnated for them to give milk and then their babies are taken away. I think maybe even happened after I had kids, right. So you have this thing of like the separation between mother and baby, and then these cows have to for about three quarters of their life, have to always be pregnant, and so it's a horrible way to live for the cow. But the other side was looking at do we actually need to have milk? What's also quite interesting when you look at the research is to see milk would have high levels of estrogen in it. So as men even us having like tiny bits of milk over, you know, each day will start to build up and it basically affects your body and then it will be like well, actually low sperm counts and also healthy sperm, if you like as well. And then for women, the side that's also quite running is linking dairy with breast cancer. And then you think, well, do we wanna be feeding our kids this way when, effectively, you can find many alternatives now on the market, and it's like oat milk and soy milk. So that was my journey. I guess more on like removing dairy.

Speaker 2: 12:33

And then going back to why I started the show, was like to bring this awareness. Like you kind of like when you go through a change yourself, you want to tell other people about it. And then I kind of thought about what can I do and what do I enjoy doing, and it's kind of like marketing, right? So in a way, I see this podcast show, or vlog, if you like, as a way of speaking to really interesting people and getting their views and for me to be educated. So it's like, well, I wanna talk to these interesting people because I wanna know myself. So you know, I started the show and now it's looking at over I think 86 episodes of the latest count, but, yeah, everyone from like startups, entrepreneurs, mature companies, film directors, associations. Even in the UK we've had like Deborah Meaden from Dragon's Den. She's been on the show. There's loads of people and I wanna try and get this as a resource in a way for people to find out more about this subject.

Speaker 1: 13:32

I gotta say that you shared a lot of resource ahead of this conversation, right? So we had the chat earlier in the week. You sent me over these videos and I watched Dairy Is Scary a fantastic title for a five minute video, because you do walk away thinking, geez, dairy Is Scary. And your point about the fact that these cows are constantly essentially pregnant or have just given birth, because the milk that they're creating is for their offspring, exactly so they're just pumped full of hormones, artificially inseminated to make sure that they are, they're pregnant and creating this milk I was totally ignorant. Anyone that hasn't watched the video should watch the video. It's on YouTube.

Speaker 1: 14:15

To the point that I didn't realize. Of course, I always knew that cattle weren't put in, kept in great condition in terms of how they're held, but I didn't realize what goes into the milk, like I didn't realize that there was an appreciated and acknowledged amount of pus and blood that was allowed to go into the milk. So not only we drinking milk that's not created for us, that's created for an offspring the cow doesn't get to see, and the cows then upset and depressed and making this milk and kept in awful conditions, but also that cow because of the conditions that they're in, they can have these formations that essentially fall into pus and blood that then ends up in the milk as well, and there's an allowed amount of this for us in our consumption.

Speaker 2: 15:04

Yeah, exactly, and obviously that's milk, but it will then make its way to cheese, right, right, and so it's kind of a bit sickening when you see those conditionings. And it definitely happened for me. Like, I mean, there was a weird thing. I'll tell you this weird thing that happened to me. So when, after I watched that video, we went to a family holiday in Glastonbury it wasn't we didn't all go to the music festival, we just had a family trip there and we were walking around one of these fields and, like, I was walking with my brother-in-law and we walked past this field and there was a bunch of cows on this field and then one of them sort of comes up, was looking at me. I was like looking at this cow, how beautiful this cow is, right. And then more cows came and they all came towards me and I felt this weird thing, thinking right, so what, you know, what are you gonna do about this? And then my brother-in-law, sort of completely different way, goes no, they're just protecting themselves. They weren't sending you some some liberal message to do something about it. And I was like, well, I see it differently than you do. So that's when I sort of felt like I needed to do something.

Speaker 2: 16:15

And then then you look at the stats and the stats are incredible. Like if you look at, like, how many animals actually killed from the UN, 92.1 billion animals are killed. For me, so that you know that will be you know cows, chickens, you know pigs, etc. And that's not including fish. When you look at fish, then it's another 2.7 trillion. That's an insane amount of devastation. That's how many that.

Speaker 2: 16:46

And then what's even worse is those animals that are killed, not all of them are actually consumed, so 18 billion go to waste. They've then effectively suffered for no reason and died for no reason and gone through all these terrible things. That's devastating for the environment, like from an emissions point of view. Then you've got to look at water pollution. Then you've got to look at deforestation, because a lot of the animals are actually being fed things like soya, not to feed humans but to feed those animals because of our consumption, is just, you know, growing right. So if you look at that, that animals are 92.1 billion just on the meat industry, feeding nearly 10 billion people. The numbers are just crazy and we do that every year. So it's you can see how it's just causing crazy issues in our world today, and so the food system is broken, basically, and that's why we need to educate people. We need to tell them about what are the alternatives and how we should be eating better.

Speaker 1: 17:51

I have to say that watching some of that content, and some of the documentaries on Netflix as well, it definitely made me more aware of what I'm consuming. I'm not going to say that I've overnight become a vegan, but I quite like cheese. Cheese is something that maybe we can talk about a little bit later, but we did make a switch this week in terms of buying almond milk instead of regular milk. That was something that we're going to look at, and I think it's important to try out the different alternatives to see what's going on. I'm keen to get back onto your vlog. So you mentioned that you'd interviewed some fantastic people. I mean Deborah Mead and there were some others that I listened to and, as you say, 86 episodes, so there's lots of fantastic nuggets there. A few key questions I had. So one was did you spot any particular trends across the interviews? And also, have you noticed any unique qualities in the leaders that you've interviewed which you believe are really essential in driving this vegan movement forward?

Speaker 2: 18:55

It's quite a varied group of people that I get on the show, like I always wanted to have it sort of more business, if you like, related and have it as even people, even VCs, for example, coming on the show. So I think you kind of follow the money, I guess, in terms of how these companies are getting created. So one thing that you see is the passion from these entrepreneurs who are creating these companies, for example. So that's something that you see across the interviews for sure. What's also interesting is how you see different companies and their stage of growth. So, for example, there's some companies that have raised millions based on what they produce, I guess on the plant-based side, but also looking at things like cultured meat, which is basically taking cells from an animal that doesn't get killed and it's then grown so to make it into what you would call clean meat to some degree that doesn't have all the antibiotics and that sort of stuff. So they've raised lots of money. So there's people like Josh Tetrick, who's been quite vocal on creating a company called Just Egg and Good Meat. So that's like Just Egg is a product that you can use instead of eggs, that is made of mung beans, very high in protein and similar versatility in terms of how you make it, if you're making it into pancakes or scrambled eggs, that sort of stuff. But he's also created a cultured meat company.

Speaker 2: 20:26

There's also been associations, and seeing how they've started, like Veganry, for example, that's always interesting to hear their story and the founder of Veganry came on the show and also it's been quite interesting to meet these people and I get inspired. So one thing that started to happen is that I meet these startups and they haven't raised any money, so they even precede. I'll give you one example. There's a guy that I met on a platform called Beyond Animal. Beyond Animal is kind of like a LinkedIn for the plant-based industry, where companies can find funding. Investors can go on this platform. So what happened is I met this guy. He was on this call and he's a German-Nigerian guy who lived in Germany for a while, went back to Lagos with his wife and kids and he was vegetarian very vegan, I mean and he couldn't find anything to eat. So his story was that he basically created this cafe and he came on the call because he wanted to speak to other companies to get insights of what they were doing, and he created this company called Veggie Victory, which is basically in Africa.

Speaker 2: 21:36

The way they consume meat isn't the same way like in Nigeria. You have a lot more stews. You don't necessarily have burgers, right, so you'll have stews, and then the stews would be like beef, for example, or fish. And he created this alternative called V-Chunks that you can put in a stew and you can flavor it. It absorbs the flavor. It's sort of soy and wheat-based product and it gives you sort of that same mouthfeel, if you like, and I thought it was fascinating.

Speaker 2: 22:06

And then I interviewed him for the show. He came on the show and I thought, oh, this guy's amazing. I really like what he's doing. I said, well, why don't I give you some money? So I'm going to take my day job, money in marketing, in consulting, and I'm going to give you a bit to help you out. I want to see you succeed Because if you look at the population growth in Africa, it will be over billions by 2050.

Speaker 2: 22:30

So it's gonna be one of those other countries China, india, right, huge population and plus huge amount of need for protein, right, and also good food. Now, if you look at that market and if you look at, you know our heritage. Our grandfathers and grandmothers ate very differently than we did. There was no having meat every single day, it would be an occasional thing. They'll be having rice and beans and all this variety of food. So it's also to try and stop that happening before the big animal farming industry comes into that market.

Speaker 2: 23:07

So I gave him some investment. I got another guy involved who actually went on Sharp Tank in US and created a plant-based dog food company called Wild Earth. So he came in a guy called Ryan Bethancourt. He came on the deal. We both did it together and then Ryan then created his own fund. He raised more money and it sort of started a snowball effect just by me meeting him coming on the show. So that's been quite nice to see that. And he's gone on to raise money now with VCs and he's growing his business. And yeah, it's fascinating just to see how that business is growing in Nigeria in that market.

Speaker 2: 23:46

And then I started investing in a few more. So it's not like hey look, I'm not a millionaire investor like one of the dragons will be, but I would give him a small amount and get him on to the road. Now I can't do so much what my wife would do. You need to save up. Now we need to think about the kids, university. So, yeah, good point. I need also some of these to pay back at some point. So now I'm tending not to do so much, but it's also like, what can I do to help those entrepreneurs? So that's been a quite nice thing to do. I didn't catch everything on your question, though, did I?

Speaker 1: 24:17

The question doesn't matter. The story itself was great. I really appreciate it and actually it leads me quite nicely onto a question that I did have and I think you shared some of it there which is it looks like there were some changes in your own behavior following some conversations. So for some conversations to make you want to put your hand in your own pocket and invest, that's a huge statement, when there are other moments that made you take a shift in your behavior or make a bit of a seismic change in how you operate.

Speaker 2: 24:47

I would say like, personally, what was interesting, I guess? More recently I interviewed a Hollywood stuntman who's been in Marvel films, dc films. He also was like the double for Tarzan, which was effectively a stunt, and body double for this guy. So he's like pretty built and I got quite inspired by this guy.

Speaker 2: 25:09

Jack, he's originally from Poland, the writer's strike was on, so he didn't have much work going on. Now it's come back, which is great for him, and 10 years ago, which is amazing, he decided to go fully vegan. I was like, wow, that's really I've been vegan now for about five years, right, and he's been vegan for 10 years before. It was even popular in what you could buy. And he basically went through a process of he had a friend who was like kind of international, I guess, like looking at your body, so like he would say, do a blood test, do a hair tissue analysis, et cetera, to find out what your body state is at, and then look to change things in your diet. So he went on a meat diet and he found he had high blood pressure, so and he did that for three months and then went off that and then he went onto a pescetarian diet fish only. He then found that he had high levels of mercury in his system and then it took him a year to get rid of that mercury. So he went off that. Then he went onto a vegetarian diet, dairy diet, and he found lots of issues with his stomach and his gut and then he settled on his vegan diet and now he's for 10 years he's been a vegan stuntman, you know, and when he goes on set people are like oh, here comes the vegan guy, but like he's completely built and shredded and everything and into like doing different movements. Because you've got to be able to like especially when you look at stuntmen in the UK you've got to have very, you've got to be able to do amazing things, you've got to be built, you've got to be able to swim, you've got to drive cars, you've got to get on horses, you've got to like just to be a part of the game. So what I learned from him was like you know, I'm really into obviously finding out about health and nutrition, but also how it affects your body when you're training so like we spoke about sort of training, bulking and when he's cutting, for example. So one thing I was quite interested in because I was then also take part in amateur dramatics, and I wanted to get in this part and I had to lose a bit of weight.

Speaker 2: 27:20

He goes what do you need to lose weight? So he was like well, what you do is basically fasting to some degree, so intermittent fasting. So I'm quite into that and into water fast as well. But he'll like have hot water and lemon, like half an hour before he eats, with a little bit of Himalayan salt to activate the minerals, so you'll drink that and then it wouldn't drink anything with your food.

Speaker 2: 27:45

So maybe he'll like skip breakfast and then for lunch he'll have like a healthy salad, you know, beans and lentils, that sort of stuff, and then an hour and a half later he'll have again some lemon and hot water and then he'll have dinner and that's his meal. So that's kind of like heavy, heavy on salads. And when he's bulking then he'll do heavy on protein, for example. So that makes you sort of lose body fat, which is kind of what we all need to be careful about, because that, you know, body fat, obesity, being overweight, leads to many issues to do with heart disease, et cetera, and we can cover some of that by groups. But yeah, so that definitely inspired me and that was, you know, just looking at that, because I was interested in that topic.

Speaker 1: 28:31

And it feels as though there's a lot of nutritional advice and documentaries that point towards a vegan diet not only being great for your health, but also the environment. Right, like each show seems to really talk about how you can recover better or you can get all your protein from a better source. The show that you referenced earlier that I'm keen to talk about is currently out on Netflix and it's called you Are what you Eat. It's that study on 22 pairs of identical twins conducted by Stanford Medicine. One twin is given a vegan diet and the other one's on an omnivore diet, and it's over eight weeks. In all honesty, I don't know about you, but I was surprised by the results and for anyone who hasn't seen the show spread alert because we're gonna spill it all here. But the results were great, right.

Speaker 1: 29:22

So some of the ones that I remember was the reduction in LDC, which is bad cholesterol, in the vegan twin versus the omnivore one, but HDL good cholesterol I think that also decreased, but just not as much in the vegan person. From what I remember, the vegan twin usually lost more muscle mass, but both groups lost weight in general and, from what I gathered, the vegan person essentially could afford to eat more. I mean the reason why they lost muscle mass because they just weren't eating enough. I think they were sort of used to different portions. Some of the reviews that I looked at the show criticized a little bit about how maybe it's a bit one-sided in the vegan diet, but I think that personally, the results dictated the final commentary. When you're seeing a twin that seem to have reversed their genetic age versus an omnivore, that deserves a little bit of conversation. Right, and I think we spoke about it earlier in the week. This is the. Is it the same filmmaker from Game Changer? Is that right?

Speaker 2: 30:23

Yeah, so Louis Fasoius was the same director and he's actually come on the show as a past guest and we spoke about his film career and so that's definitely one to watch. He will come back again, but he's got extremely busy filming and he got inundated with Quests about the show. So, but yeah, in general, what do I think? I think, yeah, the results showed what happened. I was kind of surprised. First of all, it had an effect in eight weeks, right, and quite amazing like. But I would really like to see what happens long-term to these twins, right, especially the ones that continue this dietary change. But the one that really you've mentioned already, those few things that stood out, so versatile fat, which is fat around your organs, just started to melt away with some of these twins. It's like, well, that's quite amazing. That's the danger fat. You don't want fat around your organs. You mentioned about the longevity side, and that was something which I learned about on the show. Actually I didn't know about this, but at the ends of your DNA you have these telomeres. As you age they started to decrease then they kind of protect your DNA and on the vegan diet they started to extend. So you're basically, you know, your biological age becomes younger. So you're actually becoming younger with this and that point is really important.

Speaker 2: 31:52

There's also another documentary I don't know if you've seen it it's called Live 100. And it's around what happens in these places in the world called Blue Zones, which is different places like Okinawa, for example. There's one where people are living to 100. Sardinia. There's a place in California and they're looking at these groups of people like what are these old people doing and how comes they're so active and, really importantly, why they're so healthy in their age? Because we see, like our generation, they're getting old, but they also have issues. They have heart disease, they have dementia, they have Alzheimer's, they've got type 2 diabetes. With these people who are living to 100, are healthy, they're active, they're active in their community, they're doing things, they're gardening, they're dancing, they're laughing, but also they look to their diet. 99% of them are on a plant-based diet. So there's definitely something in it where these people are doing something different. They're living longer and you can see these things starting to reverse right. So I'll give you one story of like in the show in the Twin Experiment show you Are what you Eat.

Speaker 2: 33:06

The mayor of New York, the first African-American mayor of New York, eric Adams. He woke up one morning and he found that he couldn't see properly. He said stuff in his eyes. He went to the doctors and the doctors did all these checks on him and they found out that he basically had type 2 diabetes. The doctor said well, these tingling feelings in your toes and your fingers means that you're gonna lose those. You're gonna have to be on insulin for the rest of your life. And he gave him this leaflet and he said living with type 2 diabetes. He goes nah, that's not my destiny. And then he just looked online. He said reversing type 2 diabetes. So then he found this doctor, dr Michael Greger, which was basically runs this site called nutritionfactsorg, and he's written a number of great books how Not To Die, how Not To Age, those sort of books and he discovered that you can basically reverse type 2 diabetes by going on a plant-based diet, and that's basically a whole food, plant-based diet. So he did that, went back to his doctor, came back with his medicine and goes I didn't use this medicine, I just went. And he said that was incredible. So there's definitely things that you can reverse.

Speaker 2: 34:24

I'll give you another example, actually, which was quite fascinating as well, when you look at sort of ethnic groups obviously within our ethnic groups heart disease is the biggest killer, right. And when you look at things like Alzheimer's very high for women, for example, but what was interesting, it's lower in our community and what I realized is there could be links to something as simple as turmeric. So turmeric is basically anti-inflammatory and when you get Alzheimer's you actually have this protein called amyloid and amyloid basically builds up and it basically forms plaque in your brain. So you've got them like very tiny blood vessels going inside your brain and when it blocks it up then you get Alzheimer's. That can lead to dementia. Now when you have turmeric and inside turmeric is a cucurin that basically joins to that amyloid and it basically removes that and doesn't make it form into that disease.

Speaker 2: 35:30

Now in our community we do have people who have dementia, but having turmeric and this has been in our culture for years and now what's trending is having a turmeric and a ginger shot, for example. But we've known it for centuries, having this ability to have this spice. So it's also quite interesting to see how we kind of go back to those roots that were in ancient times what people believed, and it's really going back to food in a natural form and also when you look at it going back to the natural form, in America, the African-Caribbean's community is the highest group trending group of people who are going vegan and it's not new to them because they've been eating this way for a while. So you can see this effect. But there's still issues with diet. And when you look at different communities, with things like fast food fried food is leading to all these things around obesity, heart diseases, et cetera.

Speaker 1: 36:32

I didn't realise that African-Americans were the leading group to make the switch to vegan food or participate in the vegan movement. And the reason why I say that is because, going back to Eric Adams, I read up about him a little bit more and there was this story that he shared, which was essentially we're passing type 2 diabetes down the line, and he wasn't talking about the bloodline, he wasn't talking about genetics. He was saying, literally, he could see mothers handing recipes down to their daughters and it was for fried chicken or pork and gravy or whatever it is, and it's what gets covered off in this group called soul food. But that soul food was essentially the ability to make something, a delicacy, out of the food that was available when they were living on the plantations. So there is this issue and there's definitely something in.

Speaker 1: 37:27

When you talk about our community, you're talking about the South Asian community, where we have some food types. So amongst Pakistanis, for example, we've got Nihari, which is like lamb stew right, and it's very, very heavy meat lamb stew and we've got some. We're famous for some chicken curries or what have you, but we do have a lot of lentils and kidney beans. There's lots of pulses and wheat as well, but some of those meals are just not healthy. Let's put it that way, right? Yeah, and we're passing that down from one to the other.

Speaker 2: 38:02

Completely. Yeah, and what you said there in the beginning, it's like it's definitely you're passing it down because food is cultural right and it's family, it's what brings people together, it's emotional right and but the problem is these recipes are leading to poor health outcomes, like in the US. For example, if you're male and you're 55 years old, 90% you're going to have heart disease, which is an incredible stat right, it's as nuts as a standard American diet is leading these terrible health health outcomes. And if you look at it from the culture side, yeah, people get used to what, what your, how, you're brought up in that way, but also it never used to be this way, which is kind of like going back to the point like we weren't eating in Pakistan or India or Africa. We weren't eat. We were eating a lot of rice, pulses, fruits, vegetables. We weren't necessarily eating meat three times a day. That then clogged you up, stays in your colon and gives you cancer. We weren't eating this way and it's like it's kind of frustrating when I see this happening and you think, well, just need to change.

Speaker 2: 39:14

But it's also like having that food that's accessible for these communities that might be deprived because supermarkets haven't invested in those areas. So a lot of these people now taking it in their own hands, creating their own gardens right, growing their own fruit and vegetables, and that's what's also key to educate people. And going back to Eric Adams, what he's also done just in New York has gone into the state hospitals where basically 1% were basically just eating plant based food. He's now changed that where plant based is a default at 50%. So in a similar way, imagine you go into hospital and you've got lung disease because of smoking and then part of your food they give you cigarettes. Here you go, here's some cigarettes. So it's just making it worse. So, in the same way. So that's what I'm really fascinating to see now, like how hospitals need to catch up with what's happening around the world, like getting this message of like healthy eating and having more plants in your life. And it's also like super important at universities to know this. So there's a number of universities that are coming out and doing plant based meals now and having that as an option because of the effects to your health and the environment. So it does come down to education and how you're bringing up kids as well. That's kind of vital. That's kind of what we all need to be focused on, like the next generation. We can't just leave it up to them. Having said that, a lot of Gen Zs, a lot of millennials.

Speaker 2: 40:52

If you just look at the UK, 1.1 million people between 2003 and 2024 turn vegan. So now you're looking at 2.5 million people in the UK that are vegan and a fifth of those people are actually also like 20% are actually in London. So there's a lot of people in London. One in five people are vegan in London, which is amazing meat free, so to speak. So if we continue this trend, we'll definitely start to see a difference.

Speaker 2: 41:22

Now there's an important thing. You can have vegan food that is unhealthy, or you can adopt a whole food, plant based diet that's healthy. So you want to be eating food in its natural form. So fresh fruit and vegetables, beans, legumes, grains, ancient grains you want to be eating the healthy stuff.

Speaker 2: 41:43

If you're going to choose to go to a fast food restaurant and have a burger, make sure it's the burger that doesn't have cholesterol.

Speaker 2: 41:51

So you can get a Beyond Meat Burger that will have fiber, because the meat burgers won't have fiber and no cholesterol. Yeah, it might have other things that are slightly higher, but given the choice of two, you're better off having the meat free one. So these things that we know and we do have to, obviously you need to go with how people want to eat. I would say to start with, it's kind of like have a look at what you're eating and you're shopping and then look to replace one item that you're having a lot of meat-wise and then in a week, have one plant-based meal. If you're able to do so and that's like cooking it at home, making it yourself if you're having ready meals if you're maybe older and you don't have the capabilities, then pick a plant-based meal instead. So it's like, just do that and then the more you do it, the more you learn about the food and the nutrition and the benefits and the health outcomes that you will get.

Speaker 1: 42:49

I think that's fantastic advice. It's great takeaways there. Before we wrap up, I was going to ask you a little bit about what's going on with you in your day job. What's keeping you up at night?

Speaker 2: 42:58

So, yeah, still consulting in this area of ad tech and digital and seeing quite a lot in terms of what's happening in the industry for CTV and retail media. So, yeah, still focused on that. That's the day job, that's how I earn a living, and then I guess to plant CEO. What keeps me up is like I don't think I'm doing enough. It's great when I get to speak to people and yeah, thanks again for having me on your show and it's like I speak to all these wonderful people and I think what else can I do? So thinking, do I need to do some more? That gets more traction, like to different groups of people, because I want this content to be accessible for different types of, because I went on a journey right, we know, like cheese was one that I had to give up, and cheese has got this thing called casing in it that makes it very addictive. So the best thing is just to stop eating cheese and then you won't crave it. It's like an addiction. So everyone is in their own journey. And it's like, also, you can't be judgy when you're, when you're talking about this. You've got to lead with the science and lead with research and let people find their own way.

Speaker 2: 44:13

It also came to like how I chose the name of the show, because I could have called it vegan CEO, but a lot of people these days have a negative connotation with what that means, so that's why I call it plant CEO. So with plant CEO, I want to make it more accessible, want to grow the channel, also thinking of, you know, helping different brands. So, like in my day job at the moment, we've been helping Beyond Meat, which is amazing. They've been growing phenomenally well in Europe with campaigns on CTV and talking about sustainability, so we did some campaign work for them. And with plant CEO is thinking what else can I do? Like perhaps I need to create some additional video content, maybe helping some corporates around that. So that's something that I'm considering at the moment maybe creating some short films, but that's obviously still the passion project. So that's kind of is. What worries me is that I don't feel that we're adopting to this fast enough. That's kind of what keeps me up.

Speaker 1: 45:10

I think if anything is proven from the recent trends and when I say recent trends I'm saying that for like last three, four, five years you can create a lot of content on this and it will be consumed. Yeah, this is a subject matter that we're all still really interested in learning more about, and it's just super interesting Again if you go back to game changes and the fact that gladiators were consuming more plant based than meat. That's a bit of an eye opener. I don't think that there were a lot of negative connotations to people who were opting for a salad or plant based diet versus a steak, right in terms of how masculine that person was, those connotations still ring true. I don't know if people still think that way, or at least the mass majority.

Speaker 2: 45:53

Yeah, 100%. I mean, and just to clarify that, you're talking about not the gladiators, the new show, the TV show. You're talking about Roman gladiators, which was in the documentary right. And yeah, so they did. I mean, people think that you can't be strong, but you can be very strong on a plant based diet. If you look at elephants, for example, right and gorillas, you know so, you know, some of the biggest species in the world like are so strong. So there's a lot of stuff to be done. On the negative, there's a lot of misinformation happening from the meat industry that's very much ingrained with pushing a different agenda because of money, also within governments, which is quite they spend so much money doing lobbying. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done on that side and I think the younger generation are seeing it differently and adopting to this faster, and that's what we need to focus on for sure.

Speaker 1: 46:56

My closing tradition is to allow the guests to name the episode. So you can name this conversation.

Speaker 2: 47:02

Please don't let me do that. That's so difficult. Okay, I'll give you one. It's a tricky one because it might be, it might not be seen great. So my dad, my dad, always used to say a phrase to me, and I don't know what you. I want to debate this with you. We want to see what you think. He said your stomach isn't a graveyard for dead animals.

Speaker 1: 47:25

Right. I think that's brilliant. That is the right level of click bait.

Speaker 2: 47:31

So I think that's that I will go, go go with my dad's wisdom.

Speaker 1: 47:35

You know, it's funny because I recently spent a lot of time with my brother. We went away with each other and we started to eat a lot of meat on this trip, and he actually woke up one day and he said I feel a little bit rubbish. My stomach is a graveyard for dead animals. There's no way he actually used that phrase. Wow, I thought he was being a little bit overdramatic at that point because, you know, we just had one extra, whatever. It was the normal. But yes, you're right, though it's a phrase that definitely rings true. Yeah, and there should be more consideration about what it is that you're putting your stomach and actually how long it stays in your stomach, Right?

Speaker 2: 48:13

Oh, 100%. And because meat is very dense, yeah, and when you consume it it stays in your body, takes a lot of time for your body to digest it and come out. The other end it's it's your brother saying that is kind of weird how the universe works.

Speaker 1: 48:29

So I would say a few final things. So one is if you haven't seen the Netflix show, watch the Netflix show. There are lots of other shows that we've mentioned as well. I can put them in the notes. If you haven't listened to a watch, plant CEO do is brilliant. I've watched a few episodes myself 86 episodes there, so there's lots of content there to get through. It's fantastic, and I really appreciate you joining me today. Thank you so much.