In this special coaching edition of Leadership in Colour, we delve into an insightful and engaging conversation with Gary Rayneau and Elaine Dela Cruz, the innovative minds behind Project23, Coaches of Colour, and the Equitable Coaching Foundation. This episode offers a rare glimpse into the passionate and dynamic world these two leaders navigate, emphasizing the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the corporate realm.
Gary and Elaine share their journey from the advertising world to creating impactful DEI initiatives, revealing the motivations and challenges that shaped their path. We explore the power of names and the stories they hold, shedding light on how our identities intertwine with our professional experiences. The dialogue naturally transitions into the essence of Coaches of Colour, highlighting how it addresses the need for representation and understanding in the coaching industry, and the transformative power of coaching for people of colour.
Through laughter and candid discussions, we tackle the nuances of competitive spirit, the concept of 'alpha' in leadership, and the profound impact of speaking one's truth, especially for women and people of colour. The conversation is not just about the work they do but also about how they navigate their own identities and relationships within the broader context of societal change and personal growth.
Prepare to be inspired by the stories of resilience, change, and the relentless pursuit of creating a more inclusive and equitable workplace. This episode is a testament to the power of partnership, the importance of authenticity, and the need for systemic change in our professional environments.
Your feedback is always welcome, as we strive to enhance the content's value for you. Enjoy Leadership in Colour - Voices you may not have heard from before.
In this special coaching edition of Leadership in Colour, we delve into an insightful and engaging conversation with Gary Rayneau and Elaine Dela Cruz, the innovative minds behind Project23, Coaches of Colour, and the Equitable Coaching Foundation. This episode offers a rare glimpse into the passionate and dynamic world these two leaders navigate, emphasizing the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the corporate realm.
Gary and Elaine share their journey from the advertising world to creating impactful DEI initiatives, revealing the motivations and challenges that shaped their path. We explore the power of names and the stories they hold, shedding light on how our identities intertwine with our professional experiences. The dialogue naturally transitions into the essence of Coaches of Colour, highlighting how it addresses the need for representation and understanding in the coaching industry, and the transformative power of coaching for people of colour.
Through laughter and candid discussions, we tackle the nuances of competitive spirit, the concept of 'alpha' in leadership, and the profound impact of speaking one's truth, especially for women and people of colour. The conversation is not just about the work they do but also about how they navigate their own identities and relationships within the broader context of societal change and personal growth.
Prepare to be inspired by the stories of resilience, change, and the relentless pursuit of creating a more inclusive and equitable workplace. This episode is a testament to the power of partnership, the importance of authenticity, and the need for systemic change in our professional environments.
Your feedback is always welcome, as we strive to enhance the content's value for you. Enjoy Leadership in Colour - Voices you may not have heard from before.
You're both commercial people. We are Both quite competitive people. Who's more competitive? I started these conversations to discuss leadership, mentorship, growth and so much more from voices you may not have heard from before. I hope the conversations inspire you, motivate you and give you something to think about this. Leadership in Colour from myself, shezik Bal, supported and powered by MIFA. Welcome to Leadership in Colour. Thank you so much for joining us in this special edition. It's what I'm calling the coaching edition, and I'm so pleased to have with me my guests, gary and Elaine, co-founders of Project 23,. Co-founders of project 23, coaches of color and the equitable coaching foundation. It's a lot there and I'm not sure that I can do it justice by talking about each one individually, so maybe I can hand over to you to talk through a little bit more about those three and a bit about yourself as well. So, elaine, coming to you first, cool, cool, thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much. When you get announced kind of who you are and what you do, it's always quite big, isn't it? It makes you realize what you do and that the day-to-day is a lot to keep on top of, but actually we do a lot overall when you zoom out. Thank you, shaz. So Project 23 is effectively a DEI consultancy. We support different organizations to help them to make inclusive, equitable, diverse cultures. Basically, there is lots of space to do things so much better, as most of us know, but it's not that easy and organizations you know with compassion, they need support, they need help. It's often new to them how to do that change, so we help them manage it from a strategy, education, skills, knowledge perspective.
Speaker 3:Coaches of Color is right now is what I'm really enjoying and loving. That kind of work. It's definitely come out from our observations of what's needed, what would be useful for people right now, and Coaches of Color is kind of what's what's needed, what would be useful for people right now, and coaches of color is kind of what it says in the tin. It's coaching for people of color from coaches of color. Um, and really, if anyone has access to a coach, if you are listening to this and you are thinking about coaching, or in order, because you're an organization and are thinking about implementing coaching. Coaching is great for everybody because it'd be audacious of us to think that we could navigate our lives, our careers, without just space to think about that.
Speaker 3:But coaches of color and having that equitable lens for people of color if you add those two things together is really what we're trying to do. We're essentially trying to help. Our mission is to get black and brown people to thrive in the workplace. Coaching is our method. The Equitable Coaching Foundation is somewhat born out of Coaches of Colour. Actually, we wanted to pay it forward somewhat. We work with a lot of corporate organisations for Coaches of Colour and so for money that we get that comes in through Coaches of Colour. A percentage of that goes 10% of that it goes to the Equitable Coaching Foundation, which is there to give coaching and coaching training for underrepresented groups that wouldn't normally get it, specifically in the UK, those with disabilities, people of colour or from working class backgrounds.
Speaker 1:Brilliant.
Speaker 3:Did I do that justice?
Speaker 2:I think so and Shares. Thank you for asking Elaine to go first, because I mean she does a lot of lifting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did feel like that was. You know, it's so good.
Speaker 2:It's so good. That's my trick usually to let Elaine go first so she introduces herself and does all the heavy lifting around the introductions. I think you definitely did that justice. Yeah, thank you, sh, excited to be having this conversation, uh, and, yeah, looking forward to the ground we can cover thank you, I really like the way you put that. That was nice mate it's, it's going to be, I feel, quite a organic go everywhere type of conversation, which I'm all up for yeah, we've no choice it's going to have to be so to to bring the listeners in.
Speaker 1:I've known gary and elaine for quite some time. It's going to be tough to have a the listeners in. I've known gary and elaine for quite some time. It's going to be tough to have a professional conversation here, but we're going to try our best to keep it a little bit professional well, I like, I like the idea of reimagining and, you know, repurposing what we think of as professional.
Speaker 3:We're pretty professional. I think we know what we're doing.
Speaker 1:We're good at what we do. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I did tell gary that he's to be on camera, but he did choose to turn up in a hoodie.
Speaker 2:I'd turn up in a hoodie just for you. I love it. We discuss hoodies and it's a designer hoodie.
Speaker 1:if that makes a difference to you, go on yeah, it makes a difference to you, clearly, you've mentioned it. What designer?
Speaker 2:is it? You know? It's what I would describe as a typical muse over visionist hoodie. Okay, that's a lot of words. It's fiorucci. And wow. My main reference for fiorucci is obviously um, he's the greatest dancer obvious to who?
Speaker 3:obvious to anyone who knows good music I like it, gucci fiorucci that line't know, but for those that are only tuning in with audio, it's a nice hoodie Wasted and he's tied the knots in an interesting way. I like it. He's got flair, Gary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I always ask the question tell me about your name, what's the story behind your name? And I'm going to go with you, gary first.
Speaker 2:Thank you, love. I love stories behind names. I think they're, they're rich and you can take them in so many directions. Um, my, my, my name story, um gary, I I'm not gonna talk about because I think it's quite a boring name if I'm being honest. Sorry, if anyone is listening, it's called gary. I have loved ones called gary. Um reyno is a much interesting name, um, so I think, anyway. So I think, first and foremost, when people see my name, gary Raynaud, and then this bald brown face turns up, it's not what you're expecting, first and foremost. So I think that's a case of, like you know, a layer of surprise straight away.
Speaker 2:Raynaud as a name dates back to or goes back to, it's a French name. Obviously by the spelling R-A-y-n-e-a-e, you can probably tell that. Um, and it goes back to my family heritage. My family history is anglo-indian, so my, my parents were both born in uh in calcutta. Um, they are glory and keith are anglo-indian, and our whole family is a mix of french reno. My mom's main name was fernandez, portuguese. Her mom was a reynolds, very english name.
Speaker 2:Um, so we are just a complete mix of western european and indian heritage going back to the days of empire. Basically, we are our whole family and lineage and culture is a product of empire, um which, you know, I've never really unpacked that in terms of like the violence that goes along with empire and what it means to be a child of empire. Um, what I like about it and the way I've embraced it, is that I don't really consider myself particularly British or Indian, certainly not French or Portuguese. I consider myself someone who is just on this planet and that's why I like that. My name doesn't really represent too much in terms of you can't really place me If you look at me, if you see my name, and that kind of goes along with how I view myself as well.
Speaker 1:So you don't feel like anywhere in particular has your heritage or you have an alliance to.
Speaker 2:No, I don't, I definitely don't. And you know, the Anglo-Indian community is so small and getting smaller. We don't have a homeland, we don't have a really, really strong representation of our culture in popular media. Um, growing up, that wasn't a cultural reference point. Um, so, no, I, I don't have that. Um, not that that really affects me, bothers me, but I think it's something to think about who do you support in international sports?
Speaker 2:You know what? It's a good question, and no one to any great extent. England more than most, I would say, but I'm not a passionate international sports follower.
Speaker 3:I've never thought of it like that. Is that why you think you're like club football all the way rather than international football? Because I know that about you. I think there of it like that. Is that why you think you're club football all the way rather than international football?
Speaker 2:Because I know that about you. I think there's layers to that. I think you know, being a Manchester United fan there's a I mean, it's not a sports podcast, admittedly, but being a Manchester United fan, there's always a tension between England and Manchester United Dating back to you know, for me certainly the 90s, where a lot of United players were booed when they played for England because they were their successful club at the time. So anyway, but I could spend an hour talking about that if you want.
Speaker 3:I don't want.
Speaker 1:Elaine, talk to me about your name yeah, you know what we do.
Speaker 3:We have name.
Speaker 3:I love name stories, thank you for giving us a chance to talk about our names, because we and we, we do name stories at the beginning of a lot of our workshops and the DEI work we do because it's a what do we call you, what should we call you? But it always just gives everyone something they usually didn't know about people. So I have various amount of different name stories. They usually didn't know about people, so I have various amount of different name stories. And when I was thinking about name stories for myself, um, I was like I don't want to, I don't want to just say like the stuff I've said before, because I'm here like talking to you both and it dawned on me that there's definitely a fundamental thing about I love my name, my surname, della Cruz. I've always loved my surname. People have always commented I'm British, born Filipino. People have always commented on your name's really cool, wicked, whatever. Elaine never really thought much. I don't really doesn't ever feel like me. It just feels like someone else, a figure that looks different to me. Um, and I talk about like where my name comes from and who named me my name. Um, and I talk I've got a name comes from and who named me my name, and I talk. I've got a name story where I share that.
Speaker 3:Actually my mum once said that she named me and my sister, judy. Like we have practical names and by that she means pretty profound. Really this isn't necessarily what my mum said. She said practical, but what I inferred from that was so much you know practical means people can understand that shit that you know it's western, it's palatable, um and, and you know my my name story goes that that really makes me look at my mum differently or through a certain lens, because my mum's name is Esusa, j-e-s-u-s-a. So Philippines, spanish, colonization, portuguese, american latter years. So there's a lot of Spanish running through Portuguese, running through the language. So she's called Esusa, but here in the UK, and I think even back at home in the Philippines, she's called Susan or Sue. She anglicized that name. Is that practical?
Speaker 3:But thinking about it a bit more, my dad's name. Is that practical, my dad's? But thinking about a bit more, my dad's name is federico. His nickname is bong everyone. There's so many people in the philippines whose nickname is bong. But when I've been growing up and people always say what's your dad's name, I've always had to be like his nickname's bong, and that's really popular in the philippines and blah, blah blah. Justification for that my brother's name is eric, with a silent j, j-e-r-i-c, which is, I think, classic filipinos. For any filipinos listening, this amalgamation of two names of j-e and federico, which is my dad's real name.
Speaker 1:Filipinos love doing stuff like this um, I thought they just didn't really like him. I thought they just wanted to make. They gave you an easy name and gave him a difficult name I do a more interesting name, but a very interesting name.
Speaker 3:My brother is kind of like he's had to go through. For those of you that might resonate right, he just has to go through his life explaining. Yes, eric Jarek, you know His first name on his birth certificate, I think is actually Nicholas.
Speaker 1:His first name on his birth certificate is Nicholas.
Speaker 3:Like Saint. Nicholas and birth certificate is Nicholas, like Saint Nicholas, but everyone, by Eric, which is a second, which is his name it's spelt with a J yes he's pretty cool he is pretty cool, um, and he's my older brother and he kind of came first and was born in the Philippines.
Speaker 3:There's something about that for me. But when you asked me okay, great to have a name story it just meant to me, like, what does it say about me and us that I explain my I'm here, isn't in this country, in the? What does it say about me and us that I explain my I'm here? Isn't it in this country, in the UK? What does it say that I explain the justification for our names? What if people loved the name Esusa or Bong and commented on that all the time? Would my mum and dad use those names regularly? Like, do I love the name Dela Cruz because it's been accepted by loads of others and I've been validated by others? Or do I just love it because it's a badass name?
Speaker 1:maybe both, but that's my name story it's a great name story, though, to be fair, they're both great name stories and I genuinely do appreciate it. Do you go by any nicknames at home, like do your parents have names that you you willing to share?
Speaker 3:Yes, most definitely and no. Most people that know me, friends and family. Absolutely. I have family names, my nickname, long story, but it gets to the point where it's been changed and amalgamated like warped over the years. Certain people in my immediate family will call me bulzy or bulls, my brother and sister, and then friends of the family. When they want to cut through the noise, they will use this word with me or this name, and I'll answer yeah, but if if I was to use that name, then out of context it would feel strange.
Speaker 1:Right, it's it. Just I think that there is a thing about so. For example, your brother.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You know if, if the if a doctor or someone you know, if there's a professional reason to call him up, they might say hey Nicholas or hi Nicholas, and that's going to feel really odd to him because he doesn't go by that name.
Speaker 3:No one. As far as I know, no one calls him that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:He, they would, they would he everywhere.
Speaker 1:He, he's eric, his all his identification is eric oh right, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because my full name is shezard.
Speaker 3:And when someone says that, what does it do to you?
Speaker 1:sometimes I don't even know they're talking to me. There are occasions where I'm not really, I haven't really, it's not prompted me, and then there are occasions where I hear it and it will say they'll usually read it as Shezad and my eyes are on. Oh no, I haven't changed my name in that system to Shez and I'm going to have to get on the phone and change it because I don't really want to be hauled by that has there ever been part of your?
Speaker 1:professional life. It was at the beginning yeah, absolutely. And then I changed it because I was in a sales role and I wasn't getting messages come through because either someone couldn't spell the name, so the email you know the email had to be the full name. What have you? And?
Speaker 3:yeah, it's wild how often that happens, isn't it? How many times you hear that story? Yeah?
Speaker 1:yeah, so thank you so much for sharing your name story. You're um, you've got a lot on your plate, exactly you know, as you said at the beginning, talk me through the story leading up to project 23. And I believe Project 23 was the first of the. Yeah, right, so walk me through the story leading up to Project 23.
Speaker 2:I think should we try and be as brief as possible, because I think the story is probably long if we went through the whole detail. But Elaine and myself have a uh dynamic which stretches back 20 years now, pretty much. Um working together in advertising for a long time and being, in hindsight, fortunate enough to um be offered voluntary redundancy at the same time. Um, going back almost six years now, and before we jumped back into other roles within advertising, within publishing, we thought about what could we do together, why, you know, we don't need to throw away this. You know decade-long, tried and tested partnership straight away. So what could we do? So the conversation started really open and we started to discuss um okay, what are we passionate about, what's really important to us? What did we do in our advertising careers that made us great? And we kind of like thought about that for a while.
Speaker 2:We definitely knocked it around for a good couple of weeks before we landed on the right thing and we knew that it was about people. We knew that we wanted to create something out of what we did around culture. Really, culture was where it started with us and actually where it still remains for us in terms of we. We felt that we were successful in our jobs because we had a great departmental culture. Okay, so we looked at what made up that great culture and it dawned on us pretty quickly that, out of all the departments that we knew of, both internally back at Dennis Publishing and beyond, our department was pretty diverse across a number of different dimensions. That wasn't by design. We weren't actively pushing for that. It was fairly organic in terms of what we were trying to create. Could have been more diverse, to be fair, it create could have been more diverse.
Speaker 3:To be fair, it definitely could be more compared to others?
Speaker 2:definitely, yeah, and we, you know we to jump forward, we, I think we are good at what we do now because of all the mistakes we made back then. We, we, we were by no means flawless. We were very flawed, um, but we've learned from that. But I think, you know, we, we knew we were passionate about that, we knew that we wanted to try and replicate that for other businesses, um, so that's where the nugget of the idea came from and then kind of developed from there, didn't it?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think there were a few moments, some you know classic media end of ender kind of uh job lunches that you tend to go on and and thank you to anyone that had lunch with us at that time or met us and had conversations with us as us and were kind of offering thoughts. You know, you get flowers at that point when you leave, isn't it? But there was a couple of people that said things like what are you passionate about? What are you really passionate about? And, funnily enough, I wasn't that passionate about ad tech anymore. I wasn't that. I mean, I wasn't loving GDPR conversations in every single conference or every single meeting I went to, and what I was really interested in was people, and what had both given me passion and fire was also kind of the stuff that frustrated me as well Ceilings that shouldn't be there, or realizing that, oh, hold on, I'm not really going to make it that place because actually I'm not valued for the skills that I have, or I'm seen in a certain light and oh shit, this is happening everywhere.
Speaker 3:We can surround this pod. Can we spread?
Speaker 1:yeah, he's sure very much just checking after um.
Speaker 3:So you know, you start to put our lived experience, with the skills that we have, how we want to see organizations do better and we were both in commercial roles how that stuff will just make money or more success, or more better performance or happier people. And that was where project 23 came from. I mean, voluntary redundancy is an absolute privilege that we I don't think I would be here a if we didn't have a financial package that you know, I've got two kids, I'm, you know I'm, I'm not a single mum anymore, but I was for a long time. And you, you know it's about cash, isn't it being able to afford to do?
Speaker 2:that and gave us a year of breathing space. I think, yeah, I mean in.
Speaker 3:Amongst those two weeks that Gary mentioned, I was in Sri Lanka with my two kids, loving, loving life. Thank you very much. But also, I wouldn't have done it if, personally for me, I don't think I would have done it if I wasn't exploring a partnership and a pair, a duo. I would big up to all those people who do this on their own because, personally, I need a partner. I need to do it with someone else.
Speaker 1:Talk to me about your dynamic, because you've known each other for a while.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I could have probably done it by myself, if I'm being honest, yeah, no, I'm only joking, it's it'll be same yeah, it's, it's a purely transactional partnership. You know, we don't really speak outside of work and you're both commercial people.
Speaker 1:We are both quite competitive people. Who's more competitive?
Speaker 2:that's tough. It's a good question. I've I've rarely met anyone more competitive than me.
Speaker 3:I think I think I thought he was going to say I've never met anyone more competitive than you, but I should have known.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no it's about me this, not you. That's why he lets you talk first.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah quiet, quietly, quietly, trying to win all the time that's what gary does just top you. If you go first, I can just be a topper when I was in sri lanka he was going around the world is that a fact?
Speaker 2:no, I wish.
Speaker 3:Sorry, she got more in the voluntary redundancy than I did so okay, that's another podcast that's absolutely not true we want to stack up salaries over the years and the gender thing. We could do that, but not today. We could can we?
Speaker 2:yeah, that'd be another fiery conversation when you were saying sorry, what was the question? The question was uh, competitive, wasn't it? Um, I think I am potentially more inwardly competitive than elaine. I think elaine is more outwardly competitive and will vocalize her competitiveness more than me, um, but I'm definitely competitive.
Speaker 3:I don't like losing yeah, I mean, I think that's that would be a better question. Who wins? That would be me, okay.
Speaker 3:No, no, I think uh shorter and succinct yeah, I, I think we're both competitive, but I, what, what I do like about the both of us being competitive is, I think we both like to have some fun with it, I think, and we need that, I think, between us to just drive us a little bit in the off. Like you know, in the, in the, in the fun times, I think we that's a go-to a little bit, isn't it?
Speaker 3:we like a bit of organized fun, me and gary yeah usually is around some kind of competitive thing, and then I I'll just be really annoyed because gary tends to be quite good at stuff that we do and then I'll throw my toys out the pram and off we go back to work again all right, let me ask the question I really want to ask.
Speaker 1:So who's the alpha out of you two?
Speaker 2:I'm curious to think, to know what you think on that.
Speaker 3:I'm thinking it's probably. I would say it's probably me and I need to be comfortable in that as in whether that's true or not, but I the fact that I think it. Thank you for asking me to go first, even though I think it's just cause you wanted to know. I feel like I am, but I think it's different in different places because in different environments I'm not. I'm not the alpha between the two of us. Gary, I'm really fortunate that Gary gives me a lot of space to think out loud, to process with him, to give my thoughts, my opinions, which tends to mean airtime, because Gary he's comfortable with that and he appreciates that, because Gary he's comfortable with that and he appreciates that, and that just tends. Maybe that's a version of alpha that then builds upon that platform. Basically, sometimes I question what alpha really means, but if I think about it straight up, I would say it's maybe me.
Speaker 2:What do you think? Yeah, you know what. Your last point I think I'm quite uncomfortable with that term these days.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's not a nice term for me, and I wouldn't want to be considered an alpha in any situation.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I think you know what goes along with most people's definition of alpha is kind of like dominance, or the one who's in charge, or the one who has a louder voice. Maybe, then, none of those things do I want to be. Yeah, damn, oh damn, that's a better answer. But that's a learning journey for me as well. I mean, back in the day I launched a brand at Dennis called Alpha it's spelled differently, but because it did for me at the time summarise an audience that we wanted to go after, the Alpha audience. But yeah, as I mentioned already that, the learning journey that we all go on, I I now push against that term alpha yeah, nice, he definitely laid that trap for me, didn't he?
Speaker 3:I think so yeah, it's okay competitive but the competitive, so you.
Speaker 1:So you've got a great partnership I think so yeah, it's clearly you're filling in the blanks for each other and you're supportive of each other and each other's growth. Yeah, and you've got project 23 and then it evolved.
Speaker 3:Talk me through that evolution in terms of the other things that we offer now.
Speaker 3:I mean, yeah, project 23 continues to evolve, doesn't it as well? You know we're all striving to. Anyone who works in DEI space is fully aware of how much the ground moves. The society moves, thankfully, with it slowly, but I think you know it is moving, so you're always trying to challenge yourself to be better, do more, do what's relevant in that space. Coaches of Colour, though, I think, came yourself to be better, do more, do what's relevant in that space.
Speaker 3:Coaches of color, though, I think came out of the fact that you know it can be hard work. Dei work, obviously. Um, it's why we have a mantra and a value of what you know we rise together. You know, when we win, everyone else wins. If our competitor, in inverted commas, does really well, that's great for us. We tend, we try to be open source about the way that we do things, because we rise together.
Speaker 3:Having said that, it can be hard work, and often some of that hardness is for us as individuals and for those that do the work with us is about being an often it's a lot of education right, and the people with the power and the privilege to change things fundamentally, systemically, are usually the leaders in an organization. We do a lot of our work in, in organizations, in workplaces, as you can imagine, leadership tends to come from certain demographics, so we're often doing educational pieces amongst very white, middle-class, male dominated areas and you find that we were investing a lot of time educating such people, such individuals, albeit all at different levels, on that spectrum of wanting change. We meet some amazing people doing this work and some people who out and out challenge us about racism in a room full of white people and we're the only people of color. It's great work, it needs to get done. But what we were starting to notice is that we were often in those spaces and very rarely doing work directly with the communities and the people and the groups we were trying to serve. So from there we started to do more work with ERGs employee resource groups because you could see that you know, sometimes they just start out of a bunch of great people. There's not often sponsorship resource rigor that a business department should have. So we started to do work in that space and we continue to do that.
Speaker 3:Um, people who are in ergs, particularly the chairs of those organizations massive big up and respect to them people. They are out there doing the work. We wanted to do more stuff like that. Um, so the penny started to drop, definitely for me. You know, if I just go through a couple of things I noticed and I saw as coaches we have a coaching mentality and approach in the way that we run our consultancy intrinsic motivation best. So coaching tools is useful.
Speaker 3:When we both trained as coaches loved it. I personally loved it. It's changed my life. But they're very white, privileged spaces because not everyone knows about coaching as a thing, right, professional or life coaching. It's inaccessible, it's expensive. So that means you get certain types of coaches who can afford the training, who know about the knowledge of coaching.
Speaker 3:Um, so you get quite lax diversity as an industry. Then you think there's been certain occasions where you know, you start to realize that things like coaching or therapy spaces, where you need safe spaces and people who understand your background, there's sometimes a lack of those resources for people of color, for people from marginalized groups. Um, and so we knew that with the coaching alchemy, when you get coaches, to get a coach and a coachee together, if you can help support someone by having some idea of a lived experience, maybe there's a minoritized group. You know, we don't. I could coach a Filipino, british, filipino woman. I wouldn't know her life, but I might have some idea of how to create a space where they can be themselves in that space, which is what coaching is all about.
Speaker 3:So these are the things, but fundamentally, as an organization, I think the reason I said earlier and I'm really passionate about Coaches of Color right now is because the DEI work that we do in those privileged spaces leadership space often that's important work, but it can be slow, change can be really slow and it's not to say that we shouldn't do it.
Speaker 3:But what do we do now, today? What are organizations doing now, today to support the fact that inequalities do exist? Systems are busted and broken and they're not made well. They're not busted and broken for certain people, they're not made for certain people. So how can we make a difference now is helping people to think through their careers, around their careers, giving them time and space and being told for once, I think, that you are great, you are incredible, you are powerful, you are amazing, rather than sometimes what microaggressions and the narratives can say sometimes, when you're the only, that you're not so great that you don't have the confidence. So the idea of coaches of color and being a little tiny part in that. I think that's the shit that really excites me and I'm proud of that work. I love that work brilliant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sounds, sounds quite like kind of. You know, a bit of a crazy thing to say as a business owner. But I hope that coach of color one day doesn't exist or doesn't need to exist, because it is a short-term fix for an unfair, slightly broken system. So whilst we try and fix that system with leadership, with management, with the power we've got to help and put something on the table for those identities that are suffering in this broken system. So one day I don't think it'll be anytime soon, but one day I hope there's no need for coach of color and what would you see happening thereafter?
Speaker 1:then we essentially talking about better access to coaches from the top down, because when you spoke about the training, I've also done some training on on becoming a coach and um, and I do some coaching as well, and you're so right that there wasn't diversity in the training programs and I feel like amongst people of color, there might even be a slight stigma attached to getting coaching.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like there is for therapy and there's lots of cultures. That's not for us. We keep our private lives to ourselves. This type, of thing most definitely.
Speaker 3:You know what there's something from there's, there's something about the lived experience and if there's more diversity in the coaching world, then maybe coaches of color doesn't need to exist. But I think there's the other thing about coaches of color is that coaches uh, sometimes in the teaching and the training about being a coach is is you come from a position of neutrality, right that the coachee understands their world and your neutral piece that can help them navigate their world. For us there is an out and out position that coaches of color has that we are not neutral in the fact that racism exists. It's ugly but it's the truth. We can't be neutral in that, because if we're neutral in it, it means we don't talk about it.
Speaker 3:We might not be able to create a space where people might bring that into the conversation if that's something that might be going on. Not that this is what our coaching conversations are always about, but usually they're about my strengths, my careers, how can I build networks on, and every other thing. But I think to get rid of that position of neutrality and to say that we acknowledge that this exists enables us to have the language, the space for our coaches that we can ask certain questions to see if that might be something. Is this you or is this the system you're operating in? And if you can acknowledge the system you're operating in, then you can work out how to navigate that a little bit better, rather than thinking it's imposter syndrome again.
Speaker 1:Okay, so are there huge differences between coaching someone who is a person of colour versus a white person?
Speaker 2:I don't think there's huge differences. I don't think that you know it's. I don't think it has huge differences. I I don't think that you know it's. I don't think it has to be one or the other. Um, what there is there's there's.
Speaker 2:For me, anyway, and this is definitely a personal take on it there's there's differences in terms of how I might approach it, how I'm feeling through the coaching, how they might be feeling, and it's definitely it's easier to have a, a personal connection and a more honest conversation.
Speaker 2:That's how my coachees experience coaching with me, because there isn't a need to have these automatic barriers that we might put up unconsciously. We just put these barriers up. There is something in that safe space which makes the conversation different. It makes the conversation more fun I'm going to be honest more relaxed, more fun, um, and just allows you to get those deeper truth, those deeper points of the conversation quicker, because I don't have to explain myself, I don't have to give you an insight into my world, because, whilst I might not get it exactly, because we are not the same, even though we are both of color, um, I might be able to empathize it that bit more so what you're talking about essentially is the difference is more felt by the coachee or the client yeah versus the coach, because the coach is coming to the conversation in a position of neutrality, as you put it, and it's actually the coach or the client that's getting that benefit there.
Speaker 2:I think so, but I think also, I think the coach does experience it different as well, and we always make a point that all of the coaches that work for Coaches of Colour, they go through diversity, equity and inclusion training, so so so they are, they are equipped to recognize what that person might not necessarily, but might be going through in their workplace. So if the conversation does turn to things like microaggressions or privilege, or or I experience this in the workplace then the coach is equipped to hear that, to acknowledge it, to work with it, um, and not not to have the need to, to, kind of like, find out what that means, even because I get it, I see you, I believe you do you know what?
Speaker 3:I think it's funny because it's classic, like how two, the two of us, see it from different perspectives and also have a middle line of agreement in the middle, because I, I think, listening to the question, like my first thought was about me actually, and I feel more comfortable. I feel not, not, not totally comfortable. You're always trying to be, you know, being a good coach, you're on point, but I personally I've it reminds me of you know, we could be having a conversation and there's a group of us that are Asian, black, filipino, indian, whatever we, however we identify ourselves, or people of colour, and I know that. I mean, I don't maybe it's not the same for you both, but for me I'm going to experience that conversation in a slightly different way. I might be having different types of jokes I might be talking about I don know the quality and taste preferences I have of chicken wings over chicken breasts, I don't know, like all sorts of different things that might not come up in other spaces who makes the better rice.
Speaker 3:Who makes the better?
Speaker 3:Well, Filipinos. But what I'm trying to say is, in the alchemy of the partnership there's something that is present there that I don't necessarily have the words for, but there's just a bit of a knowingness which comes along with cascades to other things, and I think both you know I'm not a neutral person in that. I'm a person in that coaching partnership too. For me it's more free, a little bit, just not every time either, right, but it feels typically a little bit more free. A little bit just not every time either, right, but it feels typically a little bit more free, it feels a little bit safer, it feels a little bit more fun.
Speaker 3:But I think there is something about my experience of coaching more privileged people versus less privileged people in this instance people of color is that I typically find that people are really hungry for it, they really want it, they value it in a different way than my white coaching coachee. Sometimes that's certainly not forensic truth, but just the value and appreciation of that space. For me I feel like it's not out there day to day untapped like it might be for others. For me I feel like it's not out there day to day untapped like it might be for others.
Speaker 2:So there's something really um special about it, I think, as an opportunity for for both of us in that, in that relationship can I give a real, a really oversimplified version of it for me, which is um, I grew up in a in a little town called letting buzzard in bedfordshire back in the 80s. We were one of the only families of color in the whole town and on the rare occasion you'd be up the high street and you'd walk past someone else of colour brown, black, didn't really matter there's a little nod to each other like I see you in it. That's it just a nod, and you carry on walking, but in that moment there was something and it made you feel good, in a moment that, ah, there's someone else like me. That's it Just a moment, but a little feeling of connection, that moment, and I think, if I can simplify it, that's that feeling for me, that's the feeling I get, that I see you in it.
Speaker 1:That nod is something that I try to explain to my wife, Because I don't know if I don't know, if, do women do this as much? My wife doesn't, for example? Just you know, I don't know. Do women do this as much my wife doesn't, for example? Just you know my wife doesn't nod to every person that walks past.
Speaker 3:In male spaces. We do.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:As in. Did you see that? Yeah, I saw that. Ah, okay, yeah it's bollocks, isn't it? Yeah, it's bollocks, or? Haha, that's funny.
Speaker 1:I feel like your level of conversation is a lot more.
Speaker 3:They're deep, isn't it? Just with a tiny little blink.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whereas I'm maybe a little bit more of a. You know, I'm from the simpler gender where, exactly as you say, gary, it's just, I see you, there's some safety there and actually up until that point, we're sort of trying to work each other out. Are we, you know, um, are we comrades? Are we, are we on the same side or not? And that not kind of just clears everything. Yeah, definitely, and there's warmth in there and when you're entering a conversation with someone, especially a coaching conversation, you're you're going to be open on both ends. That ability to know straight away that you're both on the same side, you both come with the same intentions of, of growth and moving forward, I think is is a fantastic thing, and if that's that's helped by both being of color or having similar backgrounds, then then brilliant yeah, and that happens elsewhere in the coaching world.
Speaker 3:Obviously it's why you get a lot of. You know, I know a few coaches who work in the pair because their parents, their mums and the juggling and expectations of women in the workplace, as well as being parents, is a is a niche, isn't it? It's a. It's not a very small niche, but it helps. Often if you're a mum too, you get it a little bit, not a very small niche, but it helps.
Speaker 3:Often If you're a mum too. You get it a little bit. You stay in the unknown, but you get it a little bit. This is not new Coaches of Colour as a concept is not new, it's just audacious in its honesty and truth.
Speaker 1:I was going to say that the next thing could be coaching for mums. Actually I think coaching for mums, but actually I think mums coach each other all the time.
Speaker 3:If I, if I look at, I think that support network amongst mums is strong, right most of the time yeah, I don't know how people did it without whatsapp groups, even though they are also the bane of my life, fyi yeah but yeah pros and cons to whatsapp groups.
Speaker 1:Um, okay, so if if we talk about some of the coaching conversations that you've had, there's one that comes to mind that I'd like to get your thoughts on, and that's how do you approach the conversation of racism with a client? So you think, from what they're saying, that they might be subject to racism, but they've not raised it yet, or they've not raised it at all, maybe they're oblivious to it. How do you handle that conversation?
Speaker 3:I think you know the coaching mantra that I was taught was, you know, stay in the unknown, right that we don't know, and so that's why it's about the power of questions and space. So it's it's different in lots of different situations, of course, depending on how much context you know about about this person, how much they've said, how open and willing they are to talk about things that might be uncomfortable, etc. But I think it is about the questions that we are. So, if, if it sounds like there might be other forces at play besides your strengths, your skills as an individual, and it might be the systems and processes that you're involved in at work, I think it's broadly questions such as what else do you think might be going on around you that you're not in control of? Why do you think? You know? Some of them are basic why do you think that is what else is going on um with others who might be sharing similar experiences?
Speaker 3:And you, you know, as coaches, everyone wants it's like the, the ethereal ted talk, that everyone wants to do the best talk ever. I think most questions well, maybe it's a competitive streak in me, but you know lots of coaches want to have really powerful, impactful questions and just have the one killer question. But I don't think it is really about that. I think it's about asking a question, listening to the watching, hearing the response that comes back and judging whether or not someone with their own adult thinking says something different that might give you a different question to ask them next. It is about really staying in the unknown because sometimes, even if it might be about racism, we don't have to name it. That it's just. I don't really have the ability to network like other people do, so let's talk about that rather than the fact that, typically speaking, people of color will statistically find it harder to get mentors, get sponsors. I don't need to bring racism into that conversation or systemic problems.
Speaker 2:Let's just talk about how you might navigate your way to getting more contacts yeah, it's, um, it's a great question actually and, uh, not always the easiest one to navigate and to build on what elaine is saying. Like you know, our, our coaches have to be true coaches and stay in the unknown and when they're, when they suspect racism or racist actions which is hampering this person, they can't, they can't take it down a leading route and try and uncover that they can ask the right questions. They can. They can see whether your conversation organically wants to go from a coachee perspective, but they aren't in there as dei consultants. They're in there as coaches.
Speaker 2:I think it's really important to make that point and it's why, surrounding a coaching relationship, coaches of color doesn't operate in silo, it operates with the, the parent company of Project 23, right? So there is a DEI consultancy backing this work and we make sure that the coaching conversations that happen. If there is risk and danger involved in coaching conversations which needs to be brought up up, then that's a different person. That's not the coach. That might be someone at project 23 who will bring it up with stakeholders off that business or hr in the company or any.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, but that's why it's so important that you you marry dei expertise with something like coaches of color.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's uh, it's, it's a challenge to your question actually shares and like goes back to the why. Why? Why do we want to bring up racism into these conversations? If it, if it's going to help the individual get to where they want to get to, to acknowledge that exists, maybe it's useful. Um, if we think that it's just the unsaid, it'd be better for them to acknowledge it exists or something like that. Yeah, but ultimately, why are you asking it what actually? I just want to get hold of, you know, move forward in my career might. Might be useful to know, might not be. Maybe we don't have to acknowledge the actual labels of the systemic problems.
Speaker 1:It's just what you're trying to do yeah so that opportunity to move forward and personal development is a huge focus of coaching, right? Yeah, so I totally hear you by labeling something like racism. Actually, maybe we're not allowing the coachee to move forward, maybe we're keeping them where they are or shining a light or something that's not going to support them in this, in their situation, their space. What other benefits have you seen from your work in Coaches of Colour for the coachees?
Speaker 2:For the coachees yeah, I think it's like you know this, you know coaching, as it should be, is for me, anyway, it's kind of like founded in joy, in absolute joy and development and good stuff. And I think sometimes the coaching we can do is amazing for the coachee in terms of they get to see the bigger picture of who they are, where they're at, what they're great at and how they can navigate these systems to move forward. And that's that, for me, is the absolute kind of like benefit for them. It's clarity, it's having clarity on, okay, this is who I am, these are my beliefs, values, motivators, whatever it might be, and this is how I can use that to navigate and succeed and prosper in this system. And when you see that little light bulb go off in someone's head, ah, I get it. I see what I need to do now and that could be anything that that could be. I need to leave this company because this ain't for me, and that happens right and that does happen.
Speaker 3:Have you had one of those?
Speaker 2:yeah, it does right. It happens, and it might or it might be like you know what. I never realized that that was my strength. So that's what I need to focus on and that will get me up the ladder, or whatever it might be, or not even up the ladder, that'll just make me happy where I am, even because that's a win as well, right? So it's those little light bulb moments that are really powerful for me I am one of the one of the only.
Speaker 3:Not now it's happening with the beauty of hindsight. This is so obvious, right, but what we're seeing with coaches of color is the opportunity that group coaching gives. When we first thought of it, was like one-to-one coaching. Like one-to-one coaching they're not, and it was like no, obviously we'll offer group coaching too, but where we're at right now like societal, like career, like workplaces when you get a group of people together, um, and they are able to think about their careers, their situations, the real nuances of this stuff, they can start to people me, I even, as the coach. You start to really yeah, I'm not alone in this, this is, yeah, this is something. It's different, shape different, but I recognize that.
Speaker 3:And people end up kind of for want of a better phrase breaking bread in these workshops or programs and you know, when you start to have profound learnings about yourself in a group setting, you're bonded, isn't it Like we are? We're together. So for me, there is a real additional benefit that we are seeing for the coachees that it's way beyond like a program. It is about relationships. When we're not there, our job in both these situations is to reject ourselves. We shouldn't. We're a third party.
Speaker 3:You want to be sustainable and do it on your own, whether it's DEI work or thinking so. The idea that you can build communities from really rich, joyful work, as Gary described. That goes on way beyond where they are in their career right now the workshop or a program and hopefully enables them to see that actually building community is something I want to just do generally too, and I can pay pay that forward. You can see that going loads of different ways right, so I feel like it's a real privilege to be in them spaces, um, because you can see loads of things popping off in people's minds. That will we want to answer your question fully and exhaustively? I don't think we know, because hopefully loads of shit's going on beyond when we're in the room or when they tell us they're definitely.
Speaker 2:You know. There's the feel-good element of that. Just something you said, elaine, about some of those unseen, amazing stuff that comes out of group coaching, and it makes me think of a session we put on about six months ago, and it was a group coaching session and with very little facilitation. Just as soon as we sat down in our group, um, someone's opened up, said something about their situation at work, and they followed it with an immediate reflection, which was um, I've never been able to say these words out loud before but, within five minutes, surrounded by people who you know.
Speaker 2:She didn't know these people. They just looked like her. There was something in that. There was something in that and she immediately felt safe to say something that she had never said before that is so true, it was such a like, an amazing, and as soon as she said that everyone else connected with that felt relaxed around it and we was away that is so true.
Speaker 3:You know, just think about when thoughts reverberate in your mind and just bounce around. That's how, humans, we start to tell stories from that for ourselves and we start to create narratives. But just the release of just saying that the words out loud with someone's attention is next level really. I mean, it sounds like I've oversimplified things there, but I did that the other day.
Speaker 2:I just said something out loud and I thought fuck, yeah, like something just started to move into place for me because you know people will see you, you won't be judged for it, there'll be no consequence off the back of it and you can say it safely.
Speaker 3:Yeah and people, even people, applaud you for saying things out loud and you help someone else just by saying out loud, because that might be what's going on in their head, but they're just not saying out loud this good work that we do sometimes, you know I was speaking to an organization just yesterday who had the opposite of that and they have an unsafe culture and they, they believe it's because when people speak up, um, and, dare I say, criticize certain elements of the business, there's recommendations, there's comeback, there's there's consequences.
Speaker 2:So people don't, people shut up it's real it's powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really powerful. So I've really enjoyed this conversation. I've got one question for you left, which is what has been unsaid that needs to be said.
Speaker 3:That wasn't one of the questions you asked. To prepare shares.
Speaker 2:About trainers or coaching you got to go.
Speaker 3:I've got something yeah.
Speaker 2:For me, I think we have moved a long way since 2020, and the murder of George Floyd, which was was for a lot of people, for a lot of companies, the trigger point to a lot of dei work, even though that certainly wasn't the origins of it's been going a long, long time. Um, for me, I think we've gone down a route which isn't always the healthiest within the dei sector or di work, which is the need to prove its value, to prove the worth, the financial bottom line worth, of de and I work. Um for me, it it's. It's taken away the human element of this work. It's founded for me anyway. It's taken away the human element of this work. It's founded for me anyway. It's founded in.
Speaker 2:This is just the right thing to do From a moral, from a social perspective. This is just the right thing to do. Does it matter if it doesn't contribute to the bottom line with the fact we are just creating a fairer workplace? Because it shouldn't. Why does it have to mean? You know we make more money off the back of it, which is often the case, which can be true and I can prove that to you. But why should I need to? Why aren't you just doing it because it's the right thing to do, and that's something that I would like to say more to CEOs, to key stakeholders. But it's not said enough, because I know that if I say that all the time that they probably won't go with it, they probably won't move with it, they probably won't put the right resource or budget to it.
Speaker 3:I think the other side to that coin, though, is that it's kind of fair. Maybe this is going to sound overly provocative, but businesses are there to reach their goals that they set in place. We're working with organizations right now Carb 2, I'm working with two similar organizations and much like others. Commercial growth is what they are there to do. There's equity firms involved. This is about the five-year sprint, and, for me, I'll take it. I'll take it If you can see, and if I can help you see, that DEI, greater DEI just going to go over the top of your existing goals and run on those train tracks, because not because it's the right thing to do, but because it's going to get you there, because talent is the piece, because revenue diversification is your piece, and you need different thoughts because your customer base does not all look like you, so you need to change that.
Speaker 3:Then, if I can get leaders to change what they're doing day to day to make time because no one's not busy, everyone is busy.
Speaker 3:So if this is going to have a chance for me, I think often it has to fit on in within what you're trying to achieve, I think what drives it and the spirit of it, to do it authentically within it is that you also start as a human, you start to come at it from a human-centric place rather than just looking for the numbers all the time, because if you do that, then no one wants to feel like just a goal.
Speaker 3:Because you need better marketing campaigns, and so I'm going to let you be your authentic self. Because you need better marketing campaigns, and so I'm going to let you be your authentic self because you know you need better marketing. So for me, like I think what needs to be said more slightly different to gary is um, you know, we know that you think that it's the right thing to do and that's what you should be saying out loud as a leader. But let's not forget that you also need to make sure this is worth it for your business, otherwise you're not going to get your bonus at the end of the year. So what does that look like? And don't be afraid to talk about the business case without you know and think that just because you're talking about the business case, it makes you seem cold and like you don't think it's the right thing to do, because I think that's dangerous and people say that they that it's the right thing to do. They're actually just not really doing the work to make the diversity bonuses happen within their business.
Speaker 3:They can't attach it to recruitment or to sales or whatever it might be. I've just gone right up against it.
Speaker 2:I love we've almost had contradictory points, which is we do this a lot. Actually, we come up the same conversation from different angles, and that's why I feel we work to get the middle ground and to get a better solution off the back of it. That will on a different day, I think elaine and myself would have represented the other side of that argument. Um, so yeah, I think you know, in a very kind of like you know, short example, that's, that's how we get to where we get to, because we will challenge, we will offer counter opinions and we'll we'll knock it around for one of a better phrase until we come up with something which is hopefully better I was just because I was thinking when you, what was your question again, that you asked this last question.
Speaker 3:What's unsaid that needs to be said, I think, is often to. For me personally, is to kind of speak, speak your truth a little bit. You know, we are on a podcast, we're a pair, we are, you know alignment should be the piece, but actually it is about no. For me, what's unsaid often is that you should be speaking your truth. It is about no. For me, what's unsaid often is that you should be speaking your truth. Like I think, um, you know, one of the questions that you asked us about was what is how important is being authentic to you, and and it made me think, actually the overuse of the word authentic is one like. For me, it was about how I.
Speaker 3:It's very important to me that I speak my truth and that, just because it might be a contrary opinion or it might make us look like we might not agree about stuff, you should always be able to speak your truth, because I don't think it's binary either. I don't think it's. You know, you're either authentic or your truth or you're not.
Speaker 3:I think that I like to think of it like elasticity, like you know, I sometimes need to be a certain shape, a certain way to get into the spaces that I want to get into, and that's okay with me. And other times, though, I've got to be aware that if I'm doing that for too long and I'm not kind of being myself and speaking my truth for too long, I'll get run down and I won't be as effective as I could be or should be. So for me, I think, the unsaid is often that, particularly as women, particularly as women of colour, we don't really realise the power of just speaking your truth in amongst certain spaces, maybe with two men who are like beautiful, lovely men open. But I think that, you know, we, as women of colour, need to kind of support each other to speak up and have a voice, not just for the sake of it, but just because sometimes we don't have a voice.
Speaker 1:I've really appreciated your time today. It was great to have you in here in the studio first in the studio as well. Thank you so much for for joining me on this conversation. I really enjoyed it. I'm sure everyone else listening in enjoyed it too thank you so much I mean.
Speaker 3:I feel special. This is this. This is I feel you know we were worthy but you know I appreciate you, ches, and the work that you've done. Thank you very much.