Episode 12 - Dumpster Fire to Phoenix with Ally Owen

Ever wondered about the vibrant role of diversity in leadership and why it’s crucial in the corporate world? Join me, Shez Iqbal, for an insightful and dynamic conversation with Ally Owen, the energetic founder of Brixton Finishing School, who’s revolutionizing diversity in the advertising industry.

In this episode, named (by Ally) Dumpster Fire to Phoenix; we explore Ally's inspiring journey—from her beginnings as a determined innovator to becoming a leading advocate for inclusivity. We discuss the vital importance of authentic representation and the power of mentorship in uplifting diverse voices within the corporate world.

Get ready for an engaging discussion on how opportunity and diversity can transform lives and careers. Discover how a training program, born from the vision and determination of a single mother, has become a beacon of hope, breaking down barriers for individuals from all backgrounds. This initiative is more than just a curriculum; it's a thriving community where support is constant, and cultural nuances are embraced as core values.

As our conversation winds down, we tackle the delicate balance between individuality and corporate expectations. We delve into the challenges of code-switching and the dynamics of authenticity in the workplace, questioning how much of oneself should be compromised for professional acceptance. With a rallying cry for inclusive leadership, we invite you to join the mission for equitable representation and success for all.

Tune in for a raw and fun conversation filled with insights on diversity, leadership, mentorship, and authentic representation. Get inspired and be part of the movement for a more diverse and inclusive future. Support the show!

YouTube - @LeadershipInColour 
Socials and podcasts - https://linktr.ee/sheziqbal

YouTube - @brixtonfinishingschoolteam263
BFS - https://brixtonfinishingschool.org/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I started these conversations to discuss leadership, mentorship, growth and so much more from voices you may not have heard from before. I hope the conversations inspire you, motivate you and give you something to think about. This is Leadership in Colour, from myself, Shezik Bal, supported and powered by MIFA. Welcome to my next episode of Leadership in Colour, so pleased to have Ali Owen with me today. Hi, Ali.

Speaker 2: 0:34

Hi, how are you?

Speaker 1: 0:36

Yeah, not too bad, thank you. Firstly, thank you very much for joining me.

Speaker 2: 0:40

Thank you for inviting me on. I feel quite privileged because I believe I'm the first person not of colour to be on your podcast, crushing responsibility, and I'm desperate not to make a mess of it really.

Speaker 1: 0:51

Well, let's see how the conversation goes right. Let's see if this becomes a trend.

Speaker 2: 0:55

Oh no, I'm literally bear with me. I'm going to do my best not to mess it up.

Speaker 1: 1:00

Well, I think once people have heard this conversation, they'll realise why you've joined and why I've invited you. You definitely have a valid place in the conversation, but before we get into that, tell me about your name.

Speaker 2: 1:14

So my actual name is Alison Owen, but when I was born I was going to be a Rachel, but I was the wrong colour to be a Rachel. Rachel's are quite dark and you can't see them on a podcast, but I am as ginger as they come. So my parents welcomed this baby into the world the first redhead baby in the family and immediately any naming conventions went out the window and apparently it took about 10 days before they chose a name and, yeah, I ended up as Alison Owen, which allegedly means noble warrior in some kind of Welsh or Gaelic, I'm not too sure which I think is pretty cool. I mean, that's a great. You know, noble warrior is a great kind of nom de pleur.

Speaker 2: 1:58

But also, ironically, it's kind of I spell Ali A-double-L-Y because I used to live in the east end of London and when I spelt it with an eye everybody thought I was a bloke. I get lots of posts to Mr Ali, but since I've changed it to a double l? Y, people are fine with me being a female. Now it's like, yeah, that's okay, she's definitely a woman, yeah you're right.

Speaker 1: 2:21

So Ali a, so ali ali. Not only would people assume that you're a bloke, they probably assume that you're from a particular diaspora. Right, so like yeah, especially because I was living in white chapel.

Speaker 2: 2:36

So to stop confusing people, I am change. I changed the spelling from ali to a double l? Y, which, yeah, which ironically kind of became what my job is now, which is being an ally, isn't it? So, despite all best laid plans, somehow I've ended up with my name being the same as my job.

Speaker 1: 2:57

It's interesting because, for me particularly, my dad goes by the name Iqbal. Right, that's his name and when he introduces himself on occasion he introduces himself as Ali or Alison, just because it was more palatable to to present so it's funny that you went from Alison to Ali and you went from Iqbal to Ali and and yeah, you both look completely different. So tell us who you are and what you do.

Speaker 2: 3:28

Well, I'm Ali Owen and I'm the founder of Brixton Finishing School, which is designed to change the makeup of the advertising industry. So it represents all talents. We're essentially a series of programs free national programs that find amazing talent from across the country, from socially mobile multicultural groups. We train them with the help of the employers through a series of award winning programs and then we support them into entry level roles in the industry. So I suppose we're part of the answer to the many challenges our industry has around representation and equity a small part of it anyway.

Speaker 1: 4:12

What's your why behind setting up Brickston Finishing School?

Speaker 2: 4:16

I just really cross. I mean, I think for me I set it up eight years ago. I was in industry. My last big job was at a very big newspaper. Uh, when I was, I was doing programmatic client stuff as well, and I think I just had enough after about 25 years and I remember the paper employed somebody called katie hopkins, if anybody's familiar with her.

Speaker 2: 4:40

I just had a moment of clarity around my life, my purpose. It wasn't like a big thing there, wasn't like a thunderbolt, it was more just like a I can't do this anymore. This needs to change. So I stepped out of the industry and decided I was going to set up a program that was going to make things a bit fairer, much more accessible, more accessible pathways. But looking back, I didn't have any money. I'm a single mom, I live on an estate in dalston and, um, I didn't have any experience either, apart from selling advertising. So it was quite a ballsy move, I think. But at the time I was just went for it and luckily now you know it's worked.

Speaker 2: 5:20

We've got, you know, a wonderful system that helps people get in from all types of different backgrounds, and you know we've been doing it for's worked. We've got, you know a wonderful system that helps people get in from all types of different backgrounds. And you know we've been doing it for eight years. We've won lots of awards, we've got lots of people employed. We're seeing those people starting to rise up the ranks. You know, I'm hoping for my first ex-alumni ceo in the next five to seven years. Would be amazing, yeah. And we've got lots of amazing industry supporters. So, yeah, it's one of those miracle things where sometimes, because I'm still in the same house and I do a lot of work out of the same kitchen, nothing, you know nothing has kind of changed, but everything's changed, if that makes sense. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:57

What was version one of recent finishing score?

Speaker 2: 6:08

and finishing score 2018 version one was me raising funding by kind of going around people I knew with a kind of logo I'd created myself on Canva which I will never show anybody, because one thing I can't do is draw or design anything and I'd literally just corner people, tell them what I wanted to do. You know, I want to do this thing. We're going to attract talent, we're going to put them through a free course and then you're going to guarantee a job for that talent at the end. So again, it was pretty punchy In my head you were going to give me money and you were definitely going to commit to employing one of these graduates from this unproved course for a minimum of 12 months. And unbelievably, about six kind of six, seven companies signed up, which was great. You know really forward-thinking companies Clear Channel we had Visium, primesite at the time, mccann London, pretty Green you know you had these. You know they put in some seed money. You know some of them are still my partners now and we built out a 10-week course which we ran in the summer and we had 24 students.

Speaker 2: 7:06

Anybody that sat on a media sales table with me I'd recruited into phoning up schools and colleges and youth workplaces to say, have you got any people? Et cetera, et cetera. And yeah, it was kind of like a bit of a chaotic ride and steep learning curve. We did mentoring, we had coaching, you know, the employers helped contribute to the curriculum. It was all designed around making yourself as employable as possible in a really short space of time.

Speaker 2: 7:35

And because I'm kind of socially mobile, I understand that things have to be free, but I also did it so you could kind of work enough hours to pay your rent around it. I mean, bear in mind that was seven years ago, seven, eight years ago, I don't know whether that's possible now. We used to run like 10 to four, four days a week so you could pull a prep shift or pull a pub shift, you know, and do for like Saturday, sunday, do whatever jobs you were doing, um, but yeah, we had 95 employment and some of those people from that first cohort are still in the industry today, which is great news, and we kind of proved that, yeah, this was possible. And then we started to scale, which was, yeah, a journey in itself do you stay in touch with any of that first cohort?

Speaker 2: 8:21

we are in a whatsapp group. I'm in a whatsapp group with every year up to, I think, 2021, when they put the groups on slack and I've got adhd. So the idea of me being on slack I'd never, ever get anything done it's bad enough. Now, if I have a different input, I'll end up somewhere completely left field. So, yeah, we do. We know we had a fifth birthday party, I think it was. Was it last year or the year before? Again, no sense of time. Yeah, and people came and that was amazing and you sort of yeah, it's just like really special.

Speaker 2: 8:51

I like to think of it as a family. I also like to think of it. As you know, the industry can be quite a challenging place if you're from a, I'm going to say, pioneering community. That's a nice way to describe all the communities who aren't well represented. So it's good to have a group of people who understand that and have had some shared experience. Maybe they're not directly from your cultural heritage, but they've all got the experience of maybe being slightly on the back foot when it comes to understanding the, you know, quite weird alien world that is our workplaces. When I was younger, I remember the first time I ever went into a media office. I thought it was just the oddest place but the most exciting place I'd ever been. But it was nothing like my experience of life and I think sometimes, once we've been in for a bit, we forget how odd our spaces are.

Speaker 1: 9:45

So talk to me a little bit about that then, because when you say how odd our spaces are, I can relate from the perspective that when I sit with any of my family who have proper jobs and I try to explain what I'm doing, I feel really weird because I work in programmatic as a day job. Talk to me a little bit about your early years in your career as well.

Speaker 2: 10:07

Yeah, I mean, one of the big things I suppose, is where I live. You know, the schools look very different to the offices and I think possibly one of the privileges I have where I live is that's a really stark, obvious difference. Now you can have a sixth form that's made up of the certain groups of amazing different people and bang next to it you'll have a workplace that is just made up of quite a singular group of people and I think one of the things that definitely this part of London that I live in gives me is that visual reminder of that's a bit weird, and when I was younger my experience was definitely one of coming from a big, comprehensive, not really understanding any office etiquette. I fell into advertising. I started as a PA. In fact I had no idea really what to do. I was the first one to get to uni, so that was job done.

Speaker 2: 11:04

Nobody thought what do we do after she's got to uni? Getting to uni was enough. So I was very confused as a young person in my 20s. I moved to London lots of debt and, yeah, slept on floors and temps and then one day temps at this kind of business to business publisher. That was just full of young people that had jobs and it was like it was just, yeah, it was really busy and I thought, gosh, I want to do this. And there was a lady there that looked a bit like me. She was a red haired lady and she was the boss, which was amazing Female boss, you know, didn't have those and she had this thing called a pashmina that she used to throw over her shoulder as she walked around telling people what to do.

Speaker 2: 11:45

And I remember thinking, wow, that's, that's a pretty good job. I wouldn't mind doing that. Um, yeah, and that was kind of when I had my little north star set, but I didn't have a clue about office etiquette or anything like that, and I think one of the biggest things in my early years was understanding the dark arts of the office, the unsaid. You know, I am neurod. I have no understanding of subtext, which is something that probably has been a superpower actually, because I can't. If somebody's trying to passively, aggressively put me down, I won't notice at all, and I realize that's been a major advantage in any office where if you've been slightly sarcastic I won't have noticed, I'll just carry on. You do have to actually say to my face if there's a problem, because I won't understand otherwise. But that also meant I was a big disadvantage at kind of seeing those hidden rules and obviously because I come from a background that wasn't, I don't know, middle or upper classes, the rest of the office it was just, yeah, it was a really sharp learning curve.

Speaker 1: 12:50

Even things like going out to lunch were really high stress.

Speaker 2: 12:52

Yeah, my first business lunch was just a disaster. What was, uh, what happened in your first business lunch? Well, I was taken out by, so I sort of taunt. Then the publisher employed me and he took me out to lunch in soho with the ad director, who I still know today actually and they took me to this french bistro and there was a tiny table and it had so many bits of cutlery and plates and glasses on it and I'm really clumsy, that's quite stressful. Anyway, I didn't realize that it wasn't their money, so I ordered the cheapest thing on the menu, never having had it before, which, sadly for me, was avocado soup, and it was cold avocado soup. It was like grey, and as I thought, oh my God, I'm going to have to eat this grey sludge, they started asking me questions, which I now understand is small talk.

Speaker 2: 13:36

At the time I just thought it was a secondary interview and maybe they were re-interviewing me for the job. I had no understanding that this was something you did, because the jobs I'd had before were like, I hate to say it, like places like McDonald's, I mean, where you just do a job task, what you're gonna do, make a burger, sell a burger. There was none of the chit, chat bit, yeah. But to be honest, after that that was kind of a bit of a baptism of fire.

Speaker 2: 13:59

I soon got the hang of eating for free at other people's expense. It's amazing how quickly you can get get on to that in the old days of an expense account, yeah. But yeah, I think it's good to remember where you were when you first came in, because obviously you're so conditioned by this industry to presume these experiences you have are normal. Actually, a lot of stuff experiences we have are just outrageously not normal. They are just really amazing privileges, a lot of the time, a lot of the things we do. So, yeah, awkward. I describe myself as awkward for the first couple of years.

Speaker 1: 14:33

I had not quite the same experience. So my first lunch in the industry was before I got a job. I was, you know, through school. We had work experience. We had two weeks I was at Low Howard Spink.

Speaker 2: 14:46

I remember them yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:49

I was taken out with, you know, one of my bosses over there for a lunch and this was a really what I thought was a really fancy Chinese restaurant and they had chopsticks.

Speaker 2: 15:02

Oh nightmare, oh God yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:05

Do you know how to use chopsticks? I was like, and then, before you know, they didn't really wait for me to answer, they just carried their conversation. They did the chit chat thing and I couldn't really get involved. I just felt like a child going for a meal with mum and dad and then I dropped the chopsticks a couple of times and I remember I got, I got starter, I got a main, and then I wasn't really allowed to stick around for the dessert. They sort of sent me back to base in a car because, uh, I think they'd had enough of me and they wanted to have their dessert and their drinks and what have you, and have a proper media lunch. So that was, that was my, my baptism into media lunches, and I didn't get the chit-chat right.

Speaker 1: 15:42

Like you, it just felt like a lot of pressure to deliver and to entertain. Okay, so it sounds like you've become well-versed on company lunches or industry lunches and, for anybody that hasn't noticed, ali's not bad at talking either, so I'm pretty sure he's quite good at the old small talk now. But is there an element of you that you've had to leave behind, or do you still ensure that you're turning up completely authentic and true to yourself, or, you know, talk to me a little bit about that.

Speaker 2: 16:18

I would say I've recovered a lot of myself in the current job I've got. I think I left, I discarded a lot of me to fit into the industry and succeed in the way I thought. You know I was trying to guess what would make the industry work for me. So I was trying to mold myself into this kind of every woman when I was in, like the first couple of years. No, when you're on that upward trajectory, especially when you're thinking about the industry, how there's a certain look and feel, there's a certain way of speaking, especially when I started out, there wasn't a lot of variance. Everybody sounded like they were from London but there'd be like one token Northerner who was known as the Northerner. Yeah, you know, it was that, it was that obvious. So everybody kind of became, I think, an aspect of the same person, like white shirt, brown mulberry bag, little pearl earrings, and I used to.

Speaker 2: 17:16

I definitely think I probably had a posher voice for a bit, but luckily now and what I do now, I think being me is probably my superpower. And also I think if you're going to be a leader which I am of my company, then if I can be me, awkward, clumsy, but sort of sometimes quite joyful and irritating the same moment. Me, then, that gives everybody else permission to be themselves as well, because being yourself that's enough. What else are you going to be? And I remember it was exhausting having to like switch into different variants of myself, depending on what I thought was most palatable, because I knew that this no me now wouldn't be palatable in certain places. So you were kind of just always dialing back certain aspects of your background or dialing up your voice into a more well-spoken version.

Speaker 1: 18:07

Quite sad really, but there's a lot of parallels there with what you're saying and what I've heard a lot of people of color say as well. You know it's I think it's dubbed code switching. Where you're, you have to bring either certain parts of yourself to the table or a representation of yourself, and it's definitely true that I've also had to posh up my voice on occasion. So I've been in this for about 20 years. I don't think I was speaking like this 20 years ago.

Speaker 2: 18:34

I definitely wasn't. I can't even remember what the original version of me was like yeah, yeah, but it's, I don't know, does everybody does every's? I don't know, does everybody does every, I don't know? It's that thing. It's like as if by osmosis, we're all becoming a version of each other so do you think that's true?

Speaker 1: 18:50

because, uh, that's very interesting in the way that right now, there is this continued theme of authenticity and being yourself, and when I first started out in the industry, I also started off in a b2b publisher you had to turn up in a suit yeah, you know when I was at News UK, we had to wear ties on occasion if you're in leadership roles, guardian, I think it was a little bit more relaxed so but there was.

Speaker 1: 19:20

There's definitely this, this whole element of turning up for work and in work attire, and there was, there was a certain sort of work. Look um, so that you know there is a staple. Look for for certain, you know, for certain men within the industry, of maybe a certain age group, dare I say, but it's essentially people that are told that they should turn up as themselves and just be their authentic selves. Do you, do you think that there's this truth in that? Do you think employers want that and that's?

Speaker 2: 19:50

quite. It's dangerous, isn't it really? I think this is one of those things where, actually, if you are, if your authentic self is palatable to that, whatever it is, the particular fish no environment you're in, then please do turn up. If you've ever read the class ceiling by sam friedman, they did, um, some research in tv production houses and it was kind of, yeah, everybody wore trainers, but they were a certain type of trainer. So I, when you go back to the suits, that's quite a narrow bandwidth. I kind of feel, yeah, people aren't wearing suits anymore, but they're wearing a very narrow bandwidth of trainers, jeans, casual tops, you know, etc. There's, it's, it's still quite a narrow song sheet. Your fashion is singing from, I would you know, maybe some places that would be okay, but I think you'd have to test the water first before you decided to bring out your whole self. That's not what you're being paid to do, is it? You're being paid to fit into a company culture and produce for them.

Speaker 1: 20:47

That's I kind of feel and do you think that's a positive or a negative?

Speaker 2: 20:52

I mean, I think you could produce anything brilliantly being yourself, but whether that's allowed is a different question and I obviously am not responsible for most corporate environments, so it's hard for me to answer. I know in my experience when I was trying to fit in, it definitely was easier to try and fit in because if you lent out too much and you were already on the outskirts whether it was being by being a single parent, in my case, or my accent or background, or being a bit too not posh then there were definitely risks around being that edge of the outer circle, if that makes sense. So I think it depends where you are in proximity to the centre of the circle. In my head I visualised a kind of sphere with the center being the majority and the most accepted, so they can play a bit more but they're less likely to not fit in because they're much more homogenous and as you go out maybe things get a little bit less comfortable.

Speaker 2: 21:56

Do you remember when Google said everybody had to be googly? Do you remember this? How googly are you? But that just basically meant everybody had to be their brand, which is the least diverse concept of it. So I do think we may have moved on from that. But whether you are free to be you without some kind of too loud, too different, oh, I don't know. They're a bit of a risk taker, et cetera, those kind of comments that you could get. Whether you'd still be seen as a safe pair of hands. I don't know In your current workplace how you can, you be?

Speaker 1: 22:31

So I think at Criteo actually you can be pretty loud and flamboyant if that's what you choose to be, so you can turn up.

Speaker 1: 22:43

I mean, there are some people that turn up in some fantastic outfits, right, and it's a fantastic outfit, yeah so I don't I don't think it's so much of an issue here, but, yeah, so at a traditional media owner.

Speaker 1: 22:53

Um, you know, like like news when I was there, or guardian, when I said, I do feel as though you had to have earned the ability to be so loud, right, so you've got to show that you can deliver first and then show a bit more. So each time you deliver you show a bit more of yourself. But I don't know if that's true of all industries, but definitely within the media industry that's certainly the case, and I don't think it's just down to fashion, it's, it's you completely. So there have definitely been times where I've seen individuals when they start off in the organization, they speak in a particular type of way, they behave in a particular type of way and then a year down the line, all of a sudden they seem different and you know, by osmosis they've well, I don't think they've become more like yes, there's a component of them buying into the organization more, but I was more sort of saying there's more of them, I guess, delivered because I feel like they're more comfortable.

Speaker 2: 23:58

I like that way of doing it. So the safer you feel, the more likely you are to bring you, and that's it's not just about clothing or voice, it's about opinions on things as well, isn't it? Yeah, you know, when you know within the workplace how far you're going to push certain aspects of the culture or the agenda, or yeah, it's just like, and that, yeah, I think you do have to feel quite safe to do that. So how do you think that quite safe to do that.

Speaker 1: 24:22

So how do you think that relates to the people that you see going through your programs, because they're asking for something that's really different from what perhaps you and I were asking for when we were starting off in the world of work?

Speaker 2: 24:35

I think it's really, really interesting and we try and manage expectations a lot. I think, especially with COVID, there's been a real disconnect between emerging talents coming into work and experiences. The reality of work you know you talked about your work experience. That hasn't. You know, that's been so dismantled and so you know it's yeah, it's all over the place. It's such a scattergun thing. Now. A lot of people didn't get any office experience at all coming in or they their experience is being being onboarded virtually.

Speaker 2: 25:07

There's like two things there's the kind of culture of gem zed, which has its own needs and you know ways of being, and workplace culture and I do think there's sometimes a bit of a gap between the two and that's about a misunderstanding of expectations, whether that's around timekeeping or how you present yourself. We have a thing where occasionally people will forget to take their hoods down on Zoom calls and that could be because they're quite anxious and the hood makes them feel more comfortable, more comfortable. But actually when you sort of it's kind of getting people to understand about when somebody's looking at you put down on or you know headphones off, you know if somebody's speaking to you, you know. Don't sit there with your headphones on while somebody's trying to present to you, you know, those big kind of beats headphones. I just think there's certain little things that you know. I, at the very beginning, I mentioned the dark arts of the office. I think those kind of unwritten rules have moved on. But we're now we are now the custodian of those rules and we're kind of like, oh, they're not meeting up to, like, our expectation of being on time.

Speaker 2: 26:14

And you know, when we entered the workplace, I definitely worked my ass off to not to understate it I was just so amazed to have got in, like I got in by accident. I would do anything to keep the job. So I worked relentlessly and I was definitely driven by fear. I was driven by fear of not being able to pay the rent, lots of that kind of stuff. I'm not saying it's different now because the cost of living crisis is extreme, but I do think it's rarer to see that overworking in a kind of person in their early years. They've got a much more probably healthy approach to work-life balance than we did, because you'd have to work loads. Then you'd have to go out in the evening with work as well, mostly to the pub, whether you wanted to or not, though at the time I did, now I definitely not. Would not want to do that. Yeah, and I think it's really interesting how things have changed so what's the main composition of the individuals on your programs?

Speaker 2: 27:13

just because I don't know if everybody knows so London, for Brixton, the summer school, it's 80 percent multicultural talent, of which 60 percent will come from black heritage, 20 percent white talent, but ideally everybody's socially mobile, because for me social mobility, especially now in the current, current dumpster fire that is everybody's financial situation, is a really important factor whether you're going to even be able to get to where work is, which tends to be London, and nationally it's 50% global majority, 50% white working class.

Speaker 2: 27:49

So yeah, so we tend to look at within that neurodiversity is embraced as well. So it's kind of we started as all the underrepresented within 18 to 30 year olds that we could manage within 18 to 30 year olds that we could manage. And yeah, we've kind of honed it down to those groups. But we look at the data every year and then be particular discrete groups within that. For example, we had a we'll have an outreach focus on those furthest from work. Recently that's been Bangladeshi female talent, which seems to be the furthest from employment in London. I haven't looked at the data from other places. So we'll try and work especially with that community to encourage more people to apply and how do you think this?

Speaker 1: 28:31

you know this group of individuals that are coming through would fare in the world of work as we knew it you know what some would do really well.

Speaker 2: 28:40

I'm not going to lie, but talent is talent, yeah, and I think if you are deciding to come into this industry and be into one of our courses, you're not afraid of hard work, you're not afraid of taking an opportunity and definitely some of the courses are, by very nature, a bit of a test because the reward at the end the jobs you're going to get into you have to be prepared for those jobs. Yeah, they're not easy jobs. They are jobs that are going to get into. You have to be prepared for those jobs. Yeah, they're not easy jobs. They are jobs that are going to demand quite a lot of you.

Speaker 2: 29:09

I would say the biggest effect has been seeing what COVID has done 2018, 2019, 2020, it was rare that anybody who went through our courses kind of found it hard to be retained Since sort of 21, 22,.

Speaker 2: 29:25

It's not a significant percentage, but there's definitely more conversations around behaviours that, in the long term, are not going to help somebody win in that job.

Speaker 2: 29:36

So it's kind of that. There's definitely more noise around a percentage not the majority, but the percentage of our talent where we just need to really go back to basics with some of them, and that's what we're looking at at the moment actually looking at retention products, looking at people re-releasing talent to us so we can work on particular behaviors that aren't going to help you win, because we all know that you can be as genius as you want, but what you want in an entry to here's job is consistency. You want kind of to be easy to manage. Your managers doesn't want to have to say you're late again every morning. They want to just be able to rely on you. And I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding with some young people how reliable you have to be, because I think COVID meant that you could opt out for your safety and that's entirely understandable, but that's not the case in work. Really, you do have to turn up and deliver most of the time.

Speaker 1: 30:31

I think that's a key point is that you do have to turn up and deliver. But what I've noticed from individuals that have joined Criteo and younger individuals that have joined the industry, I'm just in awe of them because they step up and they challenge and they know their values and they don't bow down to the conformities that perhaps I did yeah, more authentic and they know what they want and that's really inspiring.

Speaker 2: 30:59

I definitely think that it's a lot healthier now. I would have never put my head above the parapet in my first 10 years. I was too afraid of losing my job, and I do think it's a blessing that people are allowed to express themselves. I also kind of think as well, it shouldn't be their labor either. You know, if things are wrong, it shouldn't be up to the youngest people on the block to sort it out. They should be learning their craft. They should be being mentored and coached. You know they can bring something to the table. But it should be up to the more senior members of staff, who created that culture and are custodians of it, to change that culture for the better. And I think sometimes, yeah, it's. Where does the labor lie on the change? And also, how much change? At what pace is that change going to happen? Because actually sometimes in structures it can be slower than I mean. I want everything done today, but I have learned, sadly, that sometimes I have to wait at least a couple of days for things to be done.

Speaker 1: 31:58

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's quite tough, right, because I'm I'm from that generation as well who just makes a request and wants it now. Yeah, and what I what I call it is a switch in thinking between the destination and the journey. So are we still going to get there? Yes, okay, the journey is a little bit more scenic. Put it to the side work or something else, like we'll come back to it. I want to quickly talk about your day job and what you're working on the moment and what challenges you're facing at the moment.

Speaker 2: 32:26

So my day job is to, yeah, lead the Brixton Finishing School family of programmes and change the blend of talent in this industry and make it, yeah, a better, more equitable place. I mean, the biggest challenge is the fact that sort of 2023 has seen. Initially, it was a silent defunding of D&I. We had the tech companies lay off their heads of D&I and then we had a big rollback on some of the promises that occurred since 2020. And by the end of 2023, you had Elon Musk saying D&I must die on X and we actually ended up with I think it was Nanny, I think 247 grand whole in our budget, which is very significant last year. So I would describe it as a dumpster fire 2023.

Speaker 2: 33:17

And what was quite obvious was there's still a significant number of companies who are loyal to equity, progress and inclusion, but there was also clearly some companies that were quite performative and within those companies, there were some amazing advocates who really wanted the change to continue. But then you'll have CFOs in America removing projects on an Excel spreadsheet and that's it. So I think this year it's about, yeah, resetting. It's about doing less but to a higher quality. It's about really caring for and loving our partners and making sure we deliver the best ever product to talents and to those partners and just really securing the future, because it's been really I've never seen such a volatile couple of years as we've kind of survived through, but I'm just grateful we are surviving and we're continuing to. You know, make a significant difference to talent outcomes.

Speaker 1: 34:14

Well, it's great to hear that you are surviving and I'm sorry to hear about that.

Speaker 2: 34:18

Yeah it's not just us, it's all projects that are in the kind of change-making space, and it's as if somehow inclusion is a nice-to-have rather than a business imperative, whereas all the research shows that if you want to increase your you know plus 10% in your EBIT earnings before tax and interest, if you have a diverse management team, you know every single metric you can look at. You know diversity, representation, the feeling of being included, creates really positive financial gains. It's as if fairness I mean it's very basic. I know business isn't. You know it's not set up to be fair as capitalism, isn't it? But you know the very basics.

Speaker 2: 35:02

Why would this ever be a nice to have? You know it's supposed to be all about the best talent. You keep saying we've got to attract the best talent. Why are you reverting to a system that actually shuts out a lot of talent, whether that's because you're only selecting people who have managed before to go to uni or you're looking for somebody who sounds right for your culture. It's a very irritating rollback, but I suppose not unexpected when one thinks about the kind of global narratives that are going on at the moment.

Speaker 1: 35:33

No, no, I hear you, but the work that you do is phenomenal right, and I've got a lot of respect for Briggs Finch's work and in fact, I don't know if everybody listening in knows this, but you were awarded the MIFA Changemaker Award, right?

Speaker 2: 35:49

Yeah, I mean that was amazing. I mean I nearly I really didn't think I was going to win that. So I sat at the back of the hall in the middle seat and I literally fell over about 10 people trying to get to the front. I was just so gobsmacked. I've been very fortunate. I mean, Brixton has got so many amazing supporters who see its value, and I think, especially last year, which was a dumpster fire I'm not going to lie the thing that kept us going and certainly kept me just clinging on to my sanity, was how many people who did stand by us and were willing to help us. And I think that's all that matters. You don't need everybody, you just need enough on your side. You're not going to win everybody over, but as long as you've got the ones that you value and I really do feel winning that award is the most valuable thing I've won- you were sat just behind me actually.

Speaker 2: 36:38

Was I.

Speaker 1: 36:39

Yeah, you were sat just behind. I didn't say anything to you. Because, well, I didn't say anything to you because, well, I didn't say anything to you because there's a huge swarm of people around you. So I thought I'd catch up with you a little bit later, but I was really happy to see you in and I'm so happy that you joined me in this conversation today. It was a great conversation. So this is where everybody gets a little bit stressed. All right, Ali.

Speaker 2: 37:03

What's the surprise end question.

Speaker 1: 37:06

The surprise end question. Go, go on, then let's have a go you're gonna name the podcast, you name the episode dumpster fire to phoenix perfect. Yeah, supply to phoenix is brilliant. Is there? Is there a message that you want to say to anybody that's listening?

Speaker 2: 37:21

yeah, I sort of think. If you haven't got involved already in brixton finishing school, please just get in touch, because you can mentor, you can fund us, you can deliver content. We're going, we're taking a selection of future leaders out to cans this year cans lions because it's not just about entry-level talent. You know, our mission is to get talent from every different background right to the top, where it should be, basically, and the best way to do that is by uniting together. I mean, we are just the sum of all of our parts, aren't we? So, yeah, come and join the family would be my sign off brilliant.

Speaker 1: 37:56

Don't want to ruin that sign off. Thank you so much. That was a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 38:01

Thank you.