Episode 13 - Children of the World with Davina Barker

Discover the secrets to success by embracing your unique journey in this thought-provoking podcast episode featuring Davina Barker, Sales Director for Digital Cinema Media. Davina shares her extraordinary life story, from her adoption and the meaningful tale behind her name to her recent accolade, the MEFA Hammer Award. Gain intimate insights into how personal experiences drive professional excellence and learn from her invaluable advice on balancing ambition with mental health, celebrating achievements, and maintaining well-being.

Curious about how career paths can take unexpected yet rewarding turns? Davina reflects on her early aspirations in medicine and the surprising journey that led her to the advertising industry. Hear her thoughts on the resilience and adaptability that minority groups bring to the workplace, viewing their experiences as true superpowers. This episode is packed with advice on mentorship, early career bravery, and evolving confidence, making it a must-listen for anyone at the beginning of their professional journey.

We also explore the dynamic media landscape and the critical importance of networking in a constantly changing industry. Davina discusses the enduring relevance of television despite predictions of its decline and the slow rise of mobile media. Additionally, we delve into the crucial role of diverse perspectives and the increasing representation of South Asian films in cinema. Tune in for a compelling mix of professional wisdom, personal stories, and industry insights.

https://www.dcm.co.uk/
https://www.mefadiversityandinclusionawards.com/awards
https://www.linkedin.com/in/davina-barker-177b656/
https://linktr.ee/sheziqbal

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I started these conversations to discuss leadership, mentorship, growth and so much more from voices you may not have heard from before. I hope the conversations inspire you, motivate you and give you something to think about. This Leadership in Colour from myself, shezik Bar, is supported and powered by MIFA. Hello and welcome to the next episode of Leadership in Colour, really pleased to be here with Davina Barker, sales Director for Digital Cinema Media. Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:38

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 0:39

My pleasure. So I kick off all of these conversations with the same question Tell me about your name and a bit about yourself and what you do.

Speaker 2: 0:46

Oh, tell me, tell you about my name. Do you know what? I don't know a great deal about my name. I'm adopted and I was. My sisters and I were adopted when we were I was nearly seven, and so we're very fortunate to know a lot about our upbringing. We also remember quite a bit, but that's the kind of thing where you get little gaps in your history because it's not everything's not written down. So we came with the, the first names, and that's about as much as I know about it so quite nice though so you were, you came with the names.

Speaker 2: 1:15

Your adopted parents didn't name you Davina no, because I think of the ages that we were when we were adopted. We were three, five and nearly seven. You can't change a kid who started school's name, really can you?

Speaker 1: 1:27

I think there were some middle name tweaks.

Speaker 2: 1:29

But apart from that that yeah, we came with them that's it I got.

Speaker 1: 1:33

I'm keen to um get back to that actually at some point, but before we get there, there's something also you know it's quite interesting that happened to you recently is you won the MIFA Hammer Award at the inaugural MIFA Diversity and Inclusion Award ceremony. I was there. It was a fantastic event. What were your thoughts on the award and do you know what made you stand apart from the other nominees?

Speaker 2: 1:58

So I don't know the details because obviously as part of the judging process there's that slightly awkward bit where you have to stand outside in a corridor whilst they debate that particular category. But my overall, I loved the awards. I thought they were brilliant. I thought they were incredibly heartening about the amazing talent that we have in our industry, the creative work that people are doing, the energy that people put into all areas of DE&I, particularly obviously in that environment. So I know it sounds cliche to say, but what an absolute honour. Really really tough competition. Every paper I read felt like a winner. But, yeah, super fun. I really really enjoyed them. I was very gutted I wasn't able to be there on the actual day to pick it up, but still really delighted.

Speaker 1: 2:50

And has anything taken place afterwards? Have you, have you had any particular feedback after the awards Did anyone take note of, because it's a big award?

Speaker 2: 2:59

It is a big award. I've had lots of lovely comments and congratulations from people. I mean I don't think this is exclusive to me. I think anyone who is in those categories I think it's a nice showcase of you can just do good things, and it doesn't have to be. You know, you don't have to kill yourself doing it. You can fit them into your day job, just doing things right. If I go through the paper, I struggle sometimes with award entries where we don't reward people for doing their job really, really well. Everyone's got a side hustle or an extra. I'm like, just be brilliant at what you do and do it in the right way, and actually you should, you know, do the right thing. You should win awards for it, because it's frightening how many people don't. So I think that for me, um is heartening. It's manageable. You can do everything that was in that paper. Um, inevitably, is not me on my own. There is a lot of other people, um, uh, helping. I like to think I lead it, but it's manageable. There's no excuses.

Speaker 1: 3:59

I love what you're saying there, because there is a reality here. Right, lots of people go to work. Some get the bare minimum done, some do a good job and some do outstanding work. And why not be celebrated for delivering outstanding work? Why has it got to be?

Speaker 2: 4:15

well, this person delivered outstanding work and also did something else that was also outstanding yeah, and I think you know we talk a lot more recently in our industry about people's mental health and then go. You're only good enough if you are killing yourself with 101 different initiatives. Lots of us have other commitments, busy lives, all sorts of things going on, or not. Frankly, it's okay to just not just be at the weekend, isn't it? So I think, yeah, do your job well and do it in the right way. That is a good thing agreed, agreed.

Speaker 1: 4:47

I think that, uh, that says a lot about people and, as you say, the fact that we're talking about mental health and the fact that we're talking about a balanced week and a balanced weekend and the ability to switch off and switch on when you need to yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. So let's go back to the bit that you mentioned at the start, which is the early years. So I'm right that you're half Mauritian?

Speaker 2: 5:09

Yes, but you weren't adopted by a Mauritian family, an English family, you know. This is sort of in the 80s. So I think the adoption process now is very, very different in terms of how they approach these things, but I'm very lucky that we had a very successful adoption and it and it and it worked well for us. There's definitely different criteria these days and more consideration perhaps would be put in for our heritage, but it wasn't then.

Speaker 1: 5:44

Does that make you ever feel like you missed out at all on that heritage?

Speaker 2: 5:48

I wouldn't say I feel like no, I don't think I missed out. In that sense, I I think it makes me very aware in the context of uh, the things that we're, you know, inevitably discussing around diversity, that you have a very different view and it in some instances can be quite extreme, because you were literally the only non-white person in whole vast swathes of your life, not just at work. But I also think it gives you a privilege as well. It gives you an insight into other areas, you an insight into other areas. So I think it's complicated. There's lots of people, I guess, who grow up with families who aren't particularly into their heritage in that sense, and that's just a different family lifestyle, isn't it? So I don't think we miss out. I think it probably doesn't give me the same connection that people perhaps other people might have.

Speaker 1: 6:43

Was there an element of ignorance? Perhaps to the fact that you weren't the same connection that people perhaps other people might have? Was there an element of ignorance, perhaps to the fact that you weren't the same as everyone else? I'm just sort of thinking about family photos. Maybe even at school Were you aware of the fact that you were different from everyone else? And apologies if that's a silly question.

Speaker 2: 6:57

No, it's not a silly question at all. There were a couple of instances as I got a bit older I being about 10, thinking, oh, oh, that mum thinks I'm a brown kid. They don't think I'm just the same as all the other kids, or we. We tell it as quite a funny story. But there's um the first time we, these three girls, are dropped into this white primary school the only non-white children in this school and they panicked at Christmas and changed the nativity play to be children of the world, visit baby Jesus.

Speaker 2: 7:31

I love the fact that the intent was good, that they had considered that maybe we should think about this. Should we make some accommodation? The accommodation they made was absolutely a car crash. They dressed us up in Hawaiian skirts and you know it. It just they got it so completely wrong. But given the context of the time and their inexperience, good intent is still better than not trying and it does make for a funny Christmas story, especially considering the fact that they think that you know we were the anomaly being brown in this nativity scenario. Given where that nativity is supposed to be set, it's even more ironic. So yeah, there were instances, definitely as we were growing up. It's also weird people remember you in a way that I don't remember most of those kids in that school and even now. You bump into people now and they go, oh, I know who you are. And you think, wow, wow, we were definitely different.

Speaker 1: 8:22

Which part of the nativity took place in Hawaii?

Speaker 2: 8:25

Honestly, it was children of the world visit baby Jesus. So they dressed everyone up as children from all over the world, mainly places like Sweden, to accommodate all the kids in the school. And then we were just from Hawaii in December in a grass skirt. I mean it's kind of nuts, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:43

But there is definitely some truth in the fact that, being a minority, we often see it as a bit of a negative, but there are huge positives in the fact that people do notice you right. So that thing that you're talking about in terms of being remembered years later, I can also attest to the fact that there are some people that have come up to me and sort of said to me well, I remember you from school and, like you say, I don't really remember them as much, but because there were only a few black and Asian kids in our school, it means that there is that connection, there is that memory. Perhaps.

Speaker 2: 9:13

Yeah, definitely, and I think some people have horrendous experiences and I'm not trying to take away from that. But there's often some positivity in things and I think there's the extremes which are hideous and unpleasant, but things in the middle you can choose a little bit how you want to interpret people's reactions and behavior. And my thing is is the intent good, you know, is it kind, even if it's wrong? Is it kind? Is the intent good? And then take it as a bit of a positive stance. So I would say yes, it does help you be memorable. And you know we work in an industry where people buy people, don't they? And so the fact that they remember you a bit, for no other reason than you are, you know, a minority. You could take that. There is some downsides to that. Obviously, we would love much more representation across the industry. But take the wins. There aren't a lot of them. Take them when you can.

Speaker 1: 10:10

Absolutely, absolutely so. There aren't a lot of them. Take them when you can, absolutely absolutely so. Last time you caught up, you referenced a fight that you had at school.

Speaker 2: 10:19

Yeah, I do. Yeah, I was not a scrappy child. I was about, yeah, four stone ringing where something. Things have changed. But, um, yeah, I just remember that, being pushed around in the playground and standing up for myself and this mother saying, well, you black girls are stronger. And going, oh, oh, uh, I don't even know what to say to that. You know, um, but I do also think does it make you more resilient in the long run? I think that's not the worst thing that I'd ever been called at that point. If you try going to school when you're the kids from the care home, you know, from the children's home, that is rough, you know, that's really rough. So, relatively, I was like I could cope with that, but it wasn't I. No, it was genuinely the first time I thought, oh, you think we're different.

Speaker 1: 11:05

And when you talk about resilience, what other sort of qualities do you reckon you built up from that sort of experience?

Speaker 2: 11:12

I think resilience is a really complicated thing. I think the thing I'm reluctant to say about it is because I think it implies that people have control over their resilience, which I don't think is always the case. You can't just go and be more resilient. It doesn't work like that, that. But I think whenever you've dealt with a whole range of things that are more tricky, you've got a different starting point of what bad looks like, don't you? And so I do think you can't fake that thing. I mean, one of the challenges I have is I have a 10-year-old daughter and I think how do I make sure she's resilient without being intentionally mean? She's resilient without being intentionally mean. You know it's kind of a weird thing to fake, but so I do.

Speaker 2: 11:56

I do worry about the idea that people think that they should be making themselves more resilient and they're failing because they're not, because I think in the context of people's mental health that's not helpful. But I do think you've been knocked about a bit along the way. You do have a perspective, you know. It's much easier to say there are worse things out there, you know. But I do think that's also a very personal mark of you know how resilient you can be. You know there will be people who are way more resilient than me, who've had life a lot tougher. It's quite hard, I think. If your life is plain sailing, the first thing that goes a bit wrong. It can really derail, you can't it.

Speaker 1: 12:34

It's not something that I'd really thought about, but you're totally right that the experiences that we have growing up do make us a lot more resilient. And at the end of the day, I'm loathe to talk about the pandemic, but the reality is that we have come through something quite major as globally, and that resilience has helped a lot of people, served a lot of people well, that if you were used to a certain setup at home or you were taught to make do or you're happy to be a little bit different, then that resilience probably gives you that ability to be a little bit more of a Swiss army knife, especially in the situations that we've had.

Speaker 2: 13:13

Definitely, and I think it can come from all sorts of different things that you have to. I think Michelle Obama was talking recently I saw an interview with her where she was talking about her girls and about not being their friend and again, obviously they live a very privileged life now, don't they? So how do you build in some of that experience and work ethic and resilience that you know she and barack had when you listen to their early years and, um, how do you make you want your children to have that? You also don't want to take the privilege away that you've worked so hard for. So it's a really complicated dynamic, but I I do think in the long run it is a really important tool to have at your disposal.

Speaker 2: 13:55

And I would say for many people in our industry if we're bringing it back to our work environment who are from a minority group, think about it as your superpower, because there's so much. Oh, isn't it tough being X, y and Z? But you've got a bit of something about you. You've got a bit of grit that you're dealing with all this other stuff In the context of work, just work. You can deal with way more. So, as you can tell, I like to put a positive spin on things anyway. But I just think don't underestimate that experience and what it gives you that other people just don't have.

Speaker 1: 14:32

Agreed, agreed um experience and what it gives you that other people just don't have agreed, agree. So switching gears just slightly, but sticking to to work right. So how do you get into advertising? Because, from what I remember, your original plan was medicine yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:44

So classic uh wanted to do medicine. It actually wasn't my parents pushing in in in my case. Exactly what I wanted to do at about 15 or 16 I did work experience in a hospital. Now, even that is nuts in itself, but we're not talking about an A&E, obviously. Just send me, send me loose. It was like a little cottage hospital and I fainted every day several times in some days and they just went. We don't think you're going to get past this. So I had a bit of a rethink, but I was on that path. You know, I'd picked my chemistry, biology, maths A-levels and was on that path.

Speaker 2: 15:21

I probably went a bit wayward in that latter year when my A-levels didn't do quite as well as I should have done and had a place to do a maths degree at uni and just thought, oh, I can't do this, I don't know what to do with myself, was in the right tears and then did the absolute classic entry into media. My mum's friend happened to work at ITV in the HR team and said why don't you come and do some work experience? Just go and get a different perspective and try something. And whilst I was there they had an assistant role opening up and they interviewed for me and I interviewed for it, rather, and yeah, the rest is history. So, like many people, it was an accident, a happy accident, but nonetheless.

Speaker 1: 16:04

Do you think it was your calling?

Speaker 2: 16:06

Oh, can you call a job in media a calling? That might be a stretch, but I definitely found a place that worked really well for me. I think the the sort of more commercial side of me, the the numbers and the um, that analytical part of my brain, combined with fab people and a bit of fun, is like my, my happy, happy place. So I think it definitely plays to my strengths and to things that make me happy. So it, as I say, a very happy accident that that really worked out.

Speaker 2: 16:39

I'm not sure if you wrote it down on paper that this is necessarily what are those, uh, those charts called where you get that perfect sweet spot in the middle that all your places align, um, I'm not sure if you did that about yourself, you'd necessarily go. This would be the job for you, but it definitely has been and I think, just taking advantage of everything this industry has to offer, it's a fab industry, that's. You know. I'm really proud of my job. I'd love to talk about it outside of work with my friends. Obviously, I don't always talk about the bad days that you know, the accounts, queries and those kind of things.

Speaker 1: 17:10

But yeah, I think it definitely has played to my strengths that's the reason why I asked, because it feels like the work and the job comes naturally to you.

Speaker 2: 17:20

The leadership part of it and the day-to-day job just seems to come quite natural to you that's very kind of you to say, um, I think there's some bits that definitely have been easier. I've also worked for some brilliant people across the years who have encouraged, mentored, tutored, helped me to work out which bits to dial up and dial down. But I think you know, as a slightly scrappy kid, you kind of figure out your path quite quickly what works for you, which bits are you good at, where, where should you go? I think in my early days I was definitely braver. Um, I definitely was like, oh, I could do that, that, yeah, I should have a job over there, I'm going to apply for that, that'll work. And people going who do you think you are? Um, so I have to be good at that.

Speaker 2: 18:04

Um, and I think actually, as you get older and more experienced, perhaps some of that bravery tends to dial back a bit more, and I think that's a lesson for myself to remember. You know what you used to do and what you wanted to go for. But so I think it's a combination. It's got to be intrinsically right for you, hasn't it? It's got to be your fighting something that is not your field, but it's also taken a lot of help and support over the years to get that comfortable in doing what I do. The more successful you are at it as well, the more it builds your confidence, doesn't it? You just go. Oh yeah, I've got this.

Speaker 1: 18:41

It's that journey, isn't it? From thinking that you're going to be good at something to realizing that you're good at something and then being acknowledged for being good at it, and then, maybe, taking the next step up.

Speaker 2: 18:56

Definitely, although there's a load of dips in the middle which go oh, this is a car crash, I'm a disaster, what? Who did? I think I was thinking I could do this, you know, but generally, as long as that path overall is going upwards, um, uh, you know you're winning, aren't you?

Speaker 1: 19:04

so here's a question for you. If you had a time machine, what advice would you give to yourself at the start of your career?

Speaker 2: 19:11

What would I give myself? I think know as many people as you can. You never know who is going to tip up in a different business, who's going to be a superstar of the future. Just know everybody you can, and they don't have to be just your clients, your agency, anyone. It's just interesting to know as much as you can and, I think, don't write anything off. So you think about the media landscape. People have been saying telly's dying for about 15 years now and they've been super resilient and come back fighting it's. They also said for about the other 10 years of that it's the year of the mobile and it wasn't. It never quite got there. So I think don't believe the headlines and just remember that there's a place for everything and have a little bit, do a bit of research, have a bit of thought about what's going on around you and don't just believe the headlines when you're making decisions, but just know more people. Look at another perspective on those headlines from different people with different experiences.

Speaker 1: 20:11

It's the probably the best thing you can do in our industry is no more people and I think I know the answer to this question, but it feels like that's advice that you would have given yourself back then, but it's the same advice you'd give to people starting out now. Is that fair?

Speaker 2: 20:25

yes, yeah, definitely, if anything, I think it it can be even more useful now. As you know, back when I started, everyone was out all the time. We would, you know. Everyone was just naturally thrown together a lot more. You have to try a bit harder now. You know you have to go to the industry events. You have to turn up at the meetings, the presentations. You know. The more you can do in person which I think is harder to do now but I think will become more important um, you get a connection with people. So, yeah, I think you should probably double down on it. It happened more by osmosis perhaps, um, when I started.

Speaker 1: 21:03

Now you've got to work at that you mean we were in the pub a lot more back in the day yeah, and that.

Speaker 1: 21:10

I, I couldn't again. I couldn't agree with you more. The reality is that not being in the office as much, not being in town as much, not having those opportunities to maybe bump into people in the pub, in the bar and you know just the natural gathering spots, means you have got to work a little bit harder and maybe be part of more networks as well definitely, and they don't have to be pub based.

Speaker 2: 21:31

I mean, that's great if that's your thing, but they really don't. I think there's a lot more opportunity for non-pub based ones than there were when I first started. But yeah, you have to just try harder, and I think that's one of the reasons that MeFor is such a joy is it gives you a network of people that you might not have bumped into. You know, I've got to know people who work in different sectors who I just wouldn't have probably met, and then they elevate your network. It's like it feeds itself, doesn't it? You know, you get to know someone new. They introduce you to someone else. So I don't think it has to be hard, but you do have to think about it. It's like anything in this job, I think. Fundamentally, the people who do well work hard at things. It's just another skill that you have to work at.

Speaker 1: 22:14

It goes back to that resilience. Definitely it's just another skill that you have to work at. It goes back to that resilience definitely yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:26

So let's talk a bit about cinema. So I'm interested to know if your clients talk about diversity, um, some a bit um. It isn't perhaps the mainstay of the conversations with advertisers specific to cinema. So most of the almost everything that we run in cinema runs somewhere else. You know, it's running in broadcast, it's running on VOD, et cetera. So I think you do have clients who are massively into having good representation in their advertising and by default we then do well with those brands, but they're not necessarily pushing us. Specifically.

Speaker 2: 22:57

I think the cinema industry itself is getting more and more diverse. The content is. The awards, finally, are dragging themselves to being better in in that space, particularly also behind the scenes. I think talent on screen for certain communities anyway, is well represented, but behind the screen there's still a long way to go. But I think as an industry it has definitely got better. We're also seeing that in our audiences.

Speaker 2: 23:27

So last year some of the biggest films that we had in cinemas were some of the South Asian movies. They did brilliantly. There's an audience out there for really different and interesting content and I think advertisers are starting to go hold on a minute. That's a fab audience for trying to communicate with these groups. So it really really depends and I think it's slightly starting to morph. So the South Asian content last year that did brilliantly, I think is becoming a much better quality and therefore becomes more mainstream. We've just seen this year on the schedule, dev Patel is directing and starring in a film called Monkey man and it looks a bit like our head of film described it, a bit like John Wick in Mumbai. Well, I think that is going to transcend the traditional South Asian market and be quite a mainstream film and therefore I think advertisers will use platforms like that to show, show what they're doing. But unfortunately, I think not enough advertisers are still worrying about their representation. But I don't think that's specific to cinema.

Speaker 1: 24:33

as I say, we're part of a total, a total mix in that sense yeah, I'm looking forward to monkey man, I think um, I think it's in english, but but still, fantastic representation. I'd also say that the ad looks a bit like devs cast himself as john wick, which is what you would if you could, wouldn't you?

Speaker 1: 24:52

back in the day it was james bond, now it's john wick, you know, you know, every bloke wants to be John Wick. Okay, so what about the feedback that you get on certain films? So did you see any feedback, for example, on the? I don't know if we call it a reboot or a new version of the Little Mermaid.

Speaker 2: 25:11

Yeah. So that was, I think, a really interesting one. I think when I first saw that trailer I was like this looks brilliant, I love the casting. Then social media went nuts and you got a real mixed bag of reactions, some people really kicking off about the casting in that film and that you know it's not true to the original. It's like the original is an animation of a mermaid. At what point did you think that was real? But the thing I thought was interesting about it was at least people were having a conversation and there was lots of opportunities where people going A are you nuts? It's a mermaid. But B why wouldn't we have a black woman playing this part? You know what in the rule book says that we can't, and so, whilst it was slightly terrifying that people still reacted like that to that title, I do think it was helpful. You know, just people talking about it and showcasing actually the fact you're surprised means there isn't enough representation. You shouldn't be surprised. And then we've got there.

Speaker 1: 26:16

Yeah, agreed, I think that it is a story about a mermaid it's not true to form no are you kidding, yeah, yeah you're right. I hadn't really thought about it from that perspective, but you're absolutely right. At the end of the day it's. It's a mermaid. The first story was a cartoon, so who cares who plays the mermaid? Right, I mean they could have.

Speaker 2: 26:41

No one was kicking off about the crab, were they? I mean?

Speaker 1: 26:46

I mean they could have switched it up.

Speaker 1: 26:47

Maybe the next version that they'll switch up the the genders as well, you know, but uh, you know, yeah, ariel could be aaron, right, okay, and I don't actually remember what the prince's name is, but that could be a woman. But you know, ariel could be Aaron, right, okay, and I don't actually remember what the prince's name is, but that could be a woman. But you know, and, and who would care? It's just, it's a story. I mean they it's the themes that come out of it.

Speaker 1: 27:06

Do you, do you ever have conversations with your clients about, about the talent on, you know in the first, because I think in the day it's the context of those ads, right? Is that a big form of the conversation? Do they want to appear within, you know in in the first, because I think in the day it's the context of those ads, right is? Is that a big form of the conversation? Do they want to appear within, you know, just just before, a film that's been directed by a particular type of director or a particular sort of theme of film? I'm just keen to get get under the skin of that and it really varies.

Speaker 2: 27:32

So, yes, we have a lot of luxury brands who inevitably the talent in their creative, their brand ambassadors, are often some of the big talent in those films and there's a lovely association for them about around those films. Directors it's slightly different in that the big directors do pull in audiences and so there is an element of do I want to be in a Christopher Nolan film because I just know he's going to pull in audiences, and so there is an element of do I want to be in a Christopher Nolan film Because I just know he's going to pull in the numbers. You do get that, but generally it's a media buy. So it is about the audience and actually the thing that most clients, unless there's a really good creative fit, are asking is what is the audience? Is it right for my brand, is it going to deliver on my brand objectives? And which is good, because that's how they should be buying media. And so generally that's the questions most advertisers are asking us, and particularly around 1634 audiences. That's our sweet spot and the thing they're struggling with to get attention from those audiences, and that we play a really good part in. So more and more they are focusing on that I mean.

Speaker 2: 28:39

A great example of that would be horror. Historically, we've really struggled with brands just going I don't want to be in horror movies and actually it delivers the purest 1624 audience of any category, and so the smart brands are starting to go. Hold on a minute. This is a really good buy. It doesn't matter that it's a bit horror led, because this is where the audience is and that genre has just got bigger and bigger and more viral. You know, if you think about something like Megan and how it blew up on TikTok, it then went on to be massive in the cinema. Who doesn't want to be part of that audience? Who doesn't want to be part of that audience? So that's a great example of how advertisers think are changing their view of. We just have to align with the right directors and the right talent to. Is it the?

Speaker 1: 29:25

right audience for my brand and what I need from my media at that point. So a lot of the ads that are delivered are correct me if I'm wrong sort of repurposed from TV or maybe even the same ad. Can you shout out or call out any brands that um put together particularly good ads specifically for cinema?

Speaker 2: 29:41

you're right, the vast majority of the advertising we carry um runs somewhere else. We do tend to take the longer form copies, so the 60 second versions um more often, but we do have um advertisers. We have a brilliant creative team at DCM called DCM Studios who work with advertisers to produce specific content and they do a whole range of things from we worked with Nat West to make them absolutely bespoke copy, which emulated films and looked brilliant on the big screen through to other advertisers like KFC, who use their big 60-second creative that they've already made and then attach a sort of an M frame to make it bespoke to cinema, which is a really lovely example of. You know, you've got this fantastic, lovely piece of branding why wouldn't you want to show that? But you just adapt it to make it work stronger, and so we've done that with all sorts of brands.

Speaker 2: 30:35

I had a really nice example with Aviva recently doing a turn your phone off message specifically for cinema. That was just funny. It resonates with the audience, so it it varies quite considerably as to how much they adapt them. The thing we do know is that if you do adapt them, they work even harder because your audience is already paying more attention in the cinema than anywhere else. They really notice that you've gone the extra mile to make it relevant for them. So the impact then on brand metrics is incredibly high. It's not for everyone, but it does work really well and it's fun for our studios team to come up with some great work around that space for them.

Speaker 1: 31:15

And it makes sense, right, because you're competing with less distractions, as in, the audience usually hasn't got a second screen, they've put their phone away by now. They might be having a little bit of a chatter with their friends or whoever they've gone to cinema with, but broadly speaking, there are less distractions. So you've got that audience's attention. Why wouldn't you do something a little bit more bespoke to take advantage of that connection you've got with the audience?

Speaker 2: 31:41

And then when you combine that with the fact that the majority of the audience is that young 16 to 24 audience that you're really struggling to engage with, it makes even more of an impact and makes you more memorable for them. And you know they're a challenge, aren't they? For a lot of advertisers, so it does make sense in that environment.

Speaker 1: 32:00

So getting back to the day job, or sticking with the day job, I should say what's keeping you up at night at the moment?

Speaker 2: 32:05

So we've had a slightly volatile period in terms of.

Speaker 2: 32:11

You know, you'd said the dreaded COVID word, but it was obviously incredibly tough for cinema and we were shut for a long time and then, just when we thought we were going again, the writer's strike kicked in, and so that took us a while.

Speaker 2: 32:21

But actually things are settling down a lot now, and so the things that were keeping us up at night were things like the big streaming platforms going straight to streaming, you know, not having cinema releases, but actually that has all settled down. In fact, we were looking at the. The biggest films on the streaming platforms last year were all cinema releases. The top 10 all had cinema windows, so that is really helping and the market's quite tough at the moment. So you know you always worry about that um in the short term, but actually I think things like the ipa bellwether report saying confidence is good um gives you um encouragement for the, for the total year, and our q4 particularly looks so strong this year with uh films like new paddington, wicked um the new joker, that I'm confident that we, um we will have a really strong, strong year. But you hate to leave it all to the end, don't you?

Speaker 1: 33:18

so, um, yeah, just um keeping an eye on things as as they go yeah, those are some times definitely, you know, pulling me back into the cinema, I think. Uh, new joker in particular, that's gonna be very interesting, all right. So it's been great to have this conversation with you. I've got a closing tradition which is to allow my guests to name the podcast as in name the title. So I've got a few things here just just to help you, should you need it, but happy to hear from you on what your thoughts are oh, I didn't think of this it's a little bit unfair of me to spring on you, to be fair.

Speaker 1: 33:50

So, look, I think there are a couple that that really sort of stood out to me. Uh, there was children of the world. I thought it was quite uh funny, right, um, resilience, of course, uh know as many people as you can. Uh, don't believe the headlines and monkey man, but you don't have to pick from them just simply to to plant a seed of inspiration you know, I I like children of the world.

Speaker 2: 34:16

It makes you want to tip into a Michael Jackson cliche, though doesn't it About the future. But yes, that's a nice one.

Speaker 1: 34:26

Yeah, ok, we'll go with that and it's the right amount of clickbait that I'm after. Look, I really really appreciate your time. I know you're a busy person, so fantastic to have you here.

Speaker 2: 34:36

Absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me.