COVEpod | Carganilla Online Variety Entertainment Podcast | Storytelling, Interviews, Poetry, Music, Arts & Inspiration

Zach Woods | In the Know | COVE Podcast 31

• Paul Carganilla / Zach Woods • Season 1 • Episode 31

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Actor / Writer / Director / Producer / Improvisational Comedian : Zach Woods
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Witches. Road rage. "The Office". Art. Death. Imposter Syndrome. Swag suites. "Silicon Valley". Passports. Stop motion. "In the Know". 

Let's talk about all of it (in under an hour).

Zach Woods and host Paul Carganilla explore a variety of topics, including (and certainly not limited to) the emotional punch packed by sad films, the transformative nature of art, and how places are steeped in memories that can trigger unexpected emotions. We navigate the curious interplay between the roles we play in life and those that leave an indelible mark on our identity.

You'll be riveted as Zach peels back the curtain on the contradictions of celebrity life, sharing how the glitz of VIP treatment coexists with the humbling moments that keep him grounded. We explore the moral puzzles of fame, the all-too-familiar imposter syndrome, and how grounding ourselves in authenticity and imagination can uplift anyone seeking a life rich with purpose and passion. Join us for an episode that's as enlightening as it is entertaining, reminding us to savor life's mysteries and the joy of a journey shared with remarkable individuals like Zach Woods.

EPISODE VIDEOS: www.covetube.com
COVE DIRECTORY: https://linktr.ee/covepod
COVE PATREON: www.patreon/covepodcast
CONTACT: covepod@gmail.com

POETRY PERFORMER: Craig Jackman
POETRY: “Acting" [ George Barlow ]
VOICE-OVER INTRODUCTION: Malcolm McDowell ( "A Clockwork Orange", "Star Trek Generations", "Halloween" (2007) )
SOCIAL MEDIA TEAM: Craig Jackman, Emily Thatcher, Christina Marie Bielen, Dary Mills, Amanda Benjamin
PATREON CURATORS: Jamie Carganilla, Emily Thatcher, The Faeryns, Charity Swanson, Krista Faith King, Kelsey B Gibson, Angelica Bollschweiler, Anna Giannavola, Gina Dobbs, Merrill Mielke, Susan Kuhn, Josefa Snider
INTRO MUSIC: “Papi Beat” [ KICKTRACKS ]
CREDITS MUSIC: “Fat Banana” [ KICKTRACKS ]
HOST, CREATOR, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, CREATIVE DIRECTOR, EDITOR: Paul Carganilla

Speaker 1:

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Carganella online variety entertainment podcast.

Speaker 2:

Here's your host, Paul Carganella.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to Cove. This is the online variety show in which we aim to both entertain and inspire both our podcast listeners and YouTube viewers through a variety of entertainment offerings art forms, music, poetry, storytelling, special guest interviews, travel blogs, dramatic readings of great works, original works from listeners and friends. But today is a very, very special special guest interview, as someone who's very near and dear to my heart and I also admire so much creatively is joining us today, and we'll talk about him and introduce him in just a second. But before we do, there could not be. We could never eat, grandmother, if Red Riding Hood didn't exist. So let's bring in and say hello to our producer, producer Craig Jackman. Oh, welcome. I don't know if that made sense, but it sounded intriguing in my head before it just came out of my mouth which is why the Howling Wolf had to come out.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Brought it out, if I'm sure people knew what we were talking about. Yeah, now, of course you know, stalking in the woods to find Red. We actually found what I think is quite a person to be part of our podcast today, and what a history he has being around the performing performing on the screens is what I like to say, because it's a variety of different characters, different things that he's been involved with. It's so refreshing to see someone who has been not just in front of the camera to, but behind the camera as well. Sure.

Speaker 1:

And with an improv background. You know we do so much improv or we did at least during COVID so much improv virtually here on this YouTube channel. But yeah, what I love about Zach is having I was thinking about this on my walk this morning. Having a conversation with this man is like connecting with an old friend who you've known before you were born, and also just celebrating and reflecting on all of the beautiful things in life at the same time, like I feel like I could talk to him for days on end and never get tired of it. I'm sure he'd get sick of us, but let us not waste any time. We'll get right to it. We'll tell you all about him.

Speaker 1:

Zach Woods, our guest today, is an actor, comedian, writer, director, originally from Trenton, new Jersey. He grew up in Pennsylvania and got his college education at NYU. He started performing improv at the upright Citizens Brigade Theater in New York when he was just 16 years old and then went on to teach improv at Columbia University, duke and the Lincoln Center. Eventually he came out to Los Angeles where he booked a role in a little tiny show you may have heard of, called the Office, in which he breathed hilarious life into the awkward character, gabe Lewis, in the last three seasons seasons seven, eight and nine. He has since done a ton of movies, television voiceover work. For the full list, pull up his IMDB, but most notably HBO Silicon Valley, where he starred in six seasons as Jared Dunn. Avenue Five is Matt Spencer, and he was recently the murder victim in season two of Apple TV Plus's the Afterparty, which you'll remember Everly. My daughter was in season one, so that's a cool connection.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

But the biggest thing we want y'all to take away from today as far as his projects go is that Zach is currently the showrunner, director, writer and actor on the upcoming series In the Know, which he co-created with Mike Judge. The Mike Judge, if you're my age, you'll remember Beavis and Butthead, office Space and the Endless Things that never Hank.

Speaker 3:

What's his name? From Texas? Dammit Lobby, that's it. King of the.

Speaker 1:

Hill. Yeah, King of the Hill, thank you His writing partner, brandon Gardner as well.

Speaker 1:

For Peacock, it's actually dropping on Thursday, the 25th of January, here and, as I mentioned, he's a creator. He also has two amazing short films that he's created. Check them out on YouTube's David and Bud. Of course, the reason I know him is because of through Everly, my daughter was cast in his second short film there, called Bud, and just getting to know him and watching him work, watching him work specifically with a family member and a child, both in one fell swoop it has been fascinating for me to see and, just as I mentioned, any conversation with him is just invaluable. So let's get to it. Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming to the Carganilla Online Variety Entertainment podcast Zach Woods.

Speaker 2:

Hello, we joked about it before it started and then I still came in at the wrong moment. I put it out into the universe and just like the secret, that's right, you manifested my social awkwardness, but I feel so happy to be here and a little bit shy, and I'm so glad that you guys invited me and I am crazy about you and I'm crazy about your whole family and Craig, I am now newly crazy about you as well, so thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

Oh, dude, we're so blessed that you're here and it's been. We've been talking about this for so long because I launched my podcast like right when the strike started and we've been saying we're going to, we're going to make it happen and, thank goodness, the day is here. So I just got down and chat and normally I've got like a ton of notes, I've got like a roadmap of where I want the conversation to go, but with you I just knew like I wanted it to happen organically. So I've got a couple of bullet points, but for the most part I can't wait to just pick your brain about creativity and your process and your experiences and all your takeaways. But before we jump into that, we put all of our guests through the ringer at the beginning of the episode with the 60 second introduction icebreaker challenge, and then we have a little bit of a chat here. Other than anything that I read professionally or anything on your resume, what could you possibly tell the world about Zach Woods in 60 seconds or less? Are you up for the challenge?

Speaker 2:

Of course.

Speaker 1:

All right, here we go, and three, two, one, it's just anything non professional, okay, okay.

Speaker 2:

When I was a kid, I was terrified that my mother was a witch, even though she was a wonderful person. I had in my head that maybe she was a witch. It wasn't telling me I don't. I'm a vegan La cliche but I love old Jewish delicatessen and I like hanging out and them. I like the ambience of them, like I like the idea of um, like the cozy ambience. Okay, what else?

Speaker 2:

I think that dogs are basically people. I make very little distinction between the two of them. I consider my dog more or less a person. I have road rage. I have road rage.

Speaker 2:

I feel like in my life I try to be a kind person and try to treat people with respect, but the second I get behind the wheel, that all goes out the window and I become a true ghoul, a demon, and if I've ever been rude to you on the road, I apologize. You were probably in the right and I was just frightened. I like sad things. I sometimes find very comforting. I feel comforted by sad movies, and sometimes happy stuff can also be comforting, but sometimes it can make me feel like it's like when you're in a bad mood. On a sunny day I can't play any sports, but I love watching boxing. I love watching boxing very much and I also like this YouTube channel called Street Beasts, where it takes place in, quote unquote, satan's backyard, which is just some guy's yard in Virginia, and then people fight each other and think it's fascinating. Maybe it's not a good thing to support because maybe it's like people get hurt. I don't know. I have mixed feelings about it, but I do find it fascinating. How am I doing on time?

Speaker 1:

You're great. I mean, that's two minutes. Are there's two minutes, Paul? You shouldn't stop me.

Speaker 2:

I feel bad. I'm just like nice to stop people. I don't look whizing.

Speaker 1:

The whole reason I do that is because I want to hear what's at the front of people's minds. When you ask somebody don't tell me about your work, tell me about you and you only have a very fine night time to do it, you get to hear what's right there for people to share about, and it's a great launching point to just find things to talk about. As if we didn't have enough, but my mom's in the YouTube chat actually right now, and she says love the witch story. That is fascinating, right. My mom's not a witch, though.

Speaker 2:

I'm not, as far as I know, she would reassure me. I'd be like, mom, are you a witch? And she'd be saying no. And I'd be like, oh, thank goodness. And then I'd be like, but that's what a witch would say. And so I'd be like mom, that's what a witch would say Are you sure you're not a witch? She'd be like, no, I'm not a witch. And I was like it was this kind of endlessly renewable source of anxiety, and it came from reading Roald Dahl's the Witches, and in the beginning of Roald Dahl's the Witch.

Speaker 2:

Have you ever read that book? I think it's been years. Boy, it's scary. Basically, the first line, one of the first lines, is anyone could be a witch. They don't ride roomsticks, they don't wear tall, pointy hats, and he lists all these people. The postwoman could be a witch, that woman who offered you a suite earlier this week could be a witch. Even your school teacher who's reading you this right now could be a witch. See how she smiles at the absurdity of the idea that could be a cover. She could be a witch. So my parents read me that book and I remember thinking like, oh no, oh no, anyone could be a witch. And I feel like I've had some version of that for the rest of my life. Obviously, I outgrew the witch thing, but that kind of feeling of like is this person? Can I trust this person, or can I trust myself? Am I going to be disappointing? Is this person going to be disappointing? I think I have a little bit of that still in me. So thanks a lot, roald Dahl. You ruined my life.

Speaker 1:

Do you and my mom's saying in the chat? You say witch like it's a bad thing. Maybe I'm a good witch.

Speaker 2:

That's right. That's a good point. I love witches.

Speaker 1:

Now I will say that Do you believe in like the afterlife and stuff Like? Do you think that there's a possibility that you were involved in Massachusetts at some point?

Speaker 2:

Like I was one of those dreadful judges who, like sent adolescent girls to be, like drowned or whatever. I know you're, it's certainly not.

Speaker 1:

Your soul is still kind of trying to atone for it and you're like reading. Your parents reading that to you when you're a child was like the worst thing they could do.

Speaker 2:

It's interesting I mean, don't rule it out, I'll never say decisively that I wasn't a Puritan judge in a past life, but I think I don't know that it was about witches specifically as much as feeling like there's this kind of unbridgeable gap between me and the people.

Speaker 2:

I love that, the anxiety of that Like it was the first time as a little kid where I was like, oh wow, there's no way around this, there's no way to conclusively know that I understand the sort of contents of my parents' hearts and minds and imaginations.

Speaker 2:

You know, there's just this unbridgeable distance and you have to kind of go on faith, like and I think that was something that, even when I was much older, was a kind of core anxiety that like there might be, it might be hard to close the distance between me and people. I love, and I think it's part of my attraction to stories and art and music, which is, it feels, like a way of reaching past, language and past, all of these kind of, you know, faltering tools we have to connect with each other to go like straight, like soul to soul, basically Like I feel like when you, when you hear a song or you see a movie or you see a painting. It's like you can tunnel under all of the malarkey and get straight from like. It's like a direct line from your heart to mine and I think it so. For that reason, I often feel kept company by stories even more than like, like just being around people.

Speaker 1:

I mean, I love being around people too, obviously, but there's so much of that in the short film that that is the whole reason we know each other is you cast my daughter in this brilliant film called Bud that you wrote with your writing partner, brandon Gardner, and you wrote produce directed.

Speaker 1:

And every time I watch it and not just because she's my daughter like I get so emotional because, if anybody out there hasn't seen it, you're listening to the podcast you're watching on YouTube. As soon as you're done with this episode, go to YouTube, find. It's called Bud. Just put in the search engine Bud, zach Woods, you'll find it. It is a beautiful film. It's like 11 minutes long and, if I'm correct, what do you?

Speaker 2:

think that's right.

Speaker 1:

And the link is in the chat. If you're watching the live stream, so watch it later. But the whole it's this beautiful story, beautifully told, between a daughter and her father, and the father has done something, but you don't know what it is and that doesn't matter. And it's fascinating to see in the YouTube comments, comment after comment after comment what did he do? Tell us what. I don't get it. And that's not the point. And what you just said is just like exactly that. It cuts through. It cuts through the specifics of what and why and just gets more to the feeling behind it.

Speaker 2:

I think I'm really like in that particular movie. We were really interested in these instances in which people are sort of publicly shamed. There's a tendency to focus on whether or not they deserve it, you know, like what they did was bad enough to justify the kind of public ridicule or or ostracism if that's even a word that they receive. And we, Brandon and I, were thinking like it would be interesting to see that experience from the perspective of someone who just doesn't have the information to be able to do that kind of moral algebra, who is just having an experience of seeing somebody they love sort of pilloried in this particular way.

Speaker 2:

And I think Everly is such a beautiful person and soul but she's also such a spectacular actor and seeing the way she received the events of that little movie is the movie. I think it's her, you know, it's her heart, is the kind of animating, that's the, that's the fairy magic that makes the story come alive. Because I think I feel like sometimes people, or maybe it just I feel like if I have the information then I really understand something. But I think there's a lot of ways of understanding things and and just having sort of literal facts isn't necessarily always the best way to understand something. There's a, there's a more kind of like intuitive or experiential way of feeling things that I think has its own benefits and limitations. I guess. I think I'm starting to veer into the veer into the direction of the pretentious Paul rescue me, no, and what I love about you is that you know.

Speaker 1:

You're so curious. You ask a lot of questions and a lot of people don't, and you you wanting the information, you wanting to make decisions based on being informed, is something that feels like it's dying in this world, and that film that you made is such a commentary on that.

Speaker 2:

Can I ask you because I'm curious, like for you, are there any movies that you saw when you were growing up or now or recently, where you're like I've never been able to explain this experience or this feeling, but but I could show someone this movie and be like this is what, do you know? What I'm saying, like has has have you ever been able to use a song or a film or a piece of art as a way of explaining some part of yourself to somebody else? Not even something you made, just something that, because you've made like beautiful, lots of beautiful things yourself, but but have you ever decoded some part of yourself to somebody else using a third party's piece of art?

Speaker 1:

I don't think I've ever been ever felt so connected to something that it would explain something better than I could. But I can totally understand that Like it. It to me it just it might be completely unrelated, but it reminds me of the first time I hear music. I the neck for the rest of my life at any time I hear that song. I remember the first time, I remember where I was, I remember the smells I was smelling, I remember the text, text, site. Like I feel like that's kind of just like a relation to, to art, in the way that you're saying, like you, if you can't put it into words, put it into a feeling, I don't know why that I feel like it's related somehow.

Speaker 2:

Wait, so like you can. Oh like, if you hear a song, it's like a little time machine that sends you back to the first time, so they're sort of grafted onto each other. It's almost like a duck, like a baby duck who sees its mother, and it's like that's it imprinted on you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I mean it's not overwhelming, like it's all I see, but it's always there and I can tap into it. You said something fascinating. Sorry, whenever I have guests on, I try to consume other things that that other podcasts, episodes they've been on, so I try not to talk about the same thing people can hear somewhere else, but I also. It's a blessing and a curse because I hear things that I want to bring up when I talk to you.

Speaker 2:

But you said something that I think you said, your friend said, and that is that, like time, places aren't places, their time yeah like often when, like, for example, when I think of New York City, it's less than I'm thinking of the geography of New York City and it's more than I'm thinking about the time that I lived in New York. And so what? So often people go to places expecting to find the place, but really what they were missing was the time. And so you go there and you feel it's. You might feel slightly like I don't know, betrayed by the experience, because you're like oh wait, I didn't want New York. I went to New York in 2003, you know, or whatever.

Speaker 1:

I thought that was a brilliant way to explain it and I've said many times throughout life like I equate it to going to Disneyland. How many times have you gone to Disneyland? You still have a favorite time? Why? Because of who you are with, because of the time you're experiencing what was going on in your life, so you can keep going back to the same place and you're going to experience it different every time, because it's a different time and you're with different people.

Speaker 2:

I think it's really interesting, like this is okay. I mean, I feel like I've been talking about lots of sad stuff, but whatever, this is something that I thought was really fascinating. It's a little on the dark side, so, but someone told me this thing once that I thought was so moving, which is, they said, like if someone you love passes away, you don't just grieve the loss of them, but you love, you grieve the loss of a version of yourself that is specific to them. In other words, the way you were reflected in their eyes is a version of yourself that is really specific and can't replicate it, and so it's. You know that's part of what you're grieving to is is the particular version of you that only they saw, and I thought that was so beautiful and I think about it now.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes, you know, certain people make you feel, yeah, it's almost like there was some theater director, there was some Eastern European theater director where he would get like lifetime best performances from all of these actors. I can't remember his name, but at some point someone started interviewing the actors he directed and they said what is it Like why you get all these incredible performances out of all of these people? Or no, no, no, no, sorry, they didn't ask him. They asked the actors. What was it about him that allowed you to access that performance?

Speaker 2:

And the actors all said some version of the same thing, which is I knew, no matter what I did, he would respond with love and with fascination, and I thought that was so interesting. It's like so, in that case, for for those actors with that guy, the version of themselves they felt like in his presence was lovable and fascinating and that freed them up to be experimental and take risks and be more vulnerable and all that stuff. And I don't know. I think about that a lot like what, what version of a person are you inviting them to be, and vice versa. I don't know if that makes sense.

Speaker 1:

No, and I think that's truly fascinating how, like you know when, when your loved one dies, it's not only them that's going away, but it's how they perceived you and how they felt about you. I did one of my episodes. My episodes drop every Tuesday. Tuesday this year fell on the five year anniversary of the borderline mass shooting here in Thousand Oaks and I, you know, felt very connected to that. It's right here in my backyard, basically, and I did a special episode where I talked to survivors who were there that night and they had a recurring theme that I thought reminded me of this and is devastating and dark, of course, too, but when something like that happens, you're, you're there, you're present for a tragedy where people lose their lives, and it's a horrific moment, but you don't only mourn, maybe, your friends that were there, or mourn the people who died in that incident, but you mourn who you were before that Wow, because you will never be that version of you again.

Speaker 2:

Wow, that's really fascinating. And you don't get a chance to say goodbye, it's not. It's not like you get to say goodbye to the version, it's not like you get to do some kind of right, it's just like that You're, you're, you're transformed. That's really, really interesting. Do you know Esther Perrell? I don't.

Speaker 2:

She's this like therapist who does a lot of podcasts and things like that, and she said this thing that I thought was interesting. That's sort of similar in a weird way. She said most people over the course of their lives will have like six or seven major love, romantic relationships. And she said some people will have them with like six or seven people and some people will have them with one person. Wow, you people were like, over the course of a marriage, as you change and your partner changes, you become, you have sort of different marriages within your marriage, because what you need, what you're afraid of, what you yearn for, changes so drastically that if you were to sort of parachute in to different decades, the actual way the relationship works, the rules, the norms, the whole thing would be different. And I was I've never been married, but I thought that was fascinating to think about and I talked to my folks about it who have been married a long time, and they were basically like, yeah, that was, that was our experience.

Speaker 2:

And then I said to other people have been married where they're like. I feel like it's we sort of like. You know, it's been one marriage, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Interesting. Yeah, I was. I was kind of laugh internally when I hear people who are 24 or 25 and they're like, oh, I'm 25. I'm not married yet and I feel like that's such an old fashioned way to think about it. But like how? I mean there's scientific, all the science bit that will tell you when your brain is fully developed. But you as a person, you change throughout your life. Like your brain could be fully developed but you're not going to be who you are year to year. We're constantly changing. Life is a journey.

Speaker 2:

You feel like this is kind of a weird question, but do you feel like, as life has progressed for you, do you feel like life has gotten more intense or less intense, or just the same?

Speaker 1:

Probably just different. I feel like I was. I feel like I was under a lot more stress before or earlier in life. I think you know a lot of, a lot of it is school, being brought up, and this and that and finding finding the right partner, finding the right job, finding the right home, creating a family all these expectations that life puts on you. I think I'm at a point now that's really I've never been happier. But I also feel like if I, if you asked me this question any other point in my life, I would say I've never been happier, except for a few, you know, maybe a six months or a year, a couple years back when, when I was at my lowest.

Speaker 1:

But I feel like I, you know, I've always had this mentality.

Speaker 1:

I don't know if you and I have talked about this, but I, when I was in college, I took a class called on death and dying and the purpose of the course was to teach you that that anyone who's living is going to die and the grief process and how to deal with that, but also that you're going to die too.

Speaker 1:

And it was the most valuable course I've ever taken, and I talk about it all the time because it just like as a 20 year old kid, just kind of drove home the fact that yo, you're here once and the natural end is death and it's going to happen to you and it's going to happen to everyone that you meet and it's going to happen to everyone that you love, and just having that prepare me for the rest of my life. I feel like was it a blessing, because I have just, since that class, lived my life as, like you know, today sees the day today Like and enjoy every moment as much as you can. We all get caught up in the day to day, the chores, the work and the things we got to get through, but I try to take time every day to think of all of the things that I'm grateful for and my heart just swells and fills with the love for not only the people in my community and my family, but the life that I have and that I'm living, and I just feel so blessed.

Speaker 2:

That's so beautiful, paul. I mean I feel so lucky to know you and Jamie and Everly and Noah, because I feel that you guys sort of radiate that. I mean you're it's interesting.

Speaker 2:

It's like it's funny, there are people who have this kind of enforced positivity all the time, where it's like you get the feeling they can't acknowledge the dark parts of life because it makes them too uncomfortable.

Speaker 2:

I never get that feeling from you guys. It's like you can handle sadness or you know complexity and all that stuff, but you just seem like such a joyful, loving tribe and and your relationship to art too I find to be like very moving that you play music together. I heard a song that Jamie wrote the other day that was so beautiful and it just seems like you're you have a ha, I mean maybe romanticizing your family, but I just feel like I just all you know. Your kids are so playful and and and imaginative and goofy and and kind and I don't know. It just seems like at least from a distance it really looks like a beautiful. It's not surprising to me, I guess, to hear that you feel like you know your cup run it over, because from a distance it looks that way. It's like, wow, these, these people, seem totally crazy about each other and and really you know in the, in the flow of life or something.

Speaker 1:

Where I think we're surrounded by magic and I think we try and recognize that and I think everybody is to a point and it, you know, it's all about mindset and the decisions that we make and how we choose to Approach things and how we choose to react to the life around us. Speaking of magic and being surrounded by magic, I just want to talk about something that, of course, this is the I wanted to talk to you about create your creativity, your creative process and what part of your heart you bring to your projects and why that is so important to you. But I was, you know, researching your story and it's funny, I was telling producer Craig like I didn't know like anything about you when we met. I didn't know like really about your. I'm sorry, I had, like I watched the first two seasons of the office and then I stopped and I never watched. No, but so it's been like a journey within an eye opening journey, to just to look back at your catalog and hear about your story.

Speaker 1:

And something that really struck me with I think it was the podcast you did, the Office Ladies, was the story about how you, you come out to LA. You're a huge fan of the office, you meet the casting director and she puts you in the show and it's your first. It's your first major television role and this is something it was so interesting we just had a conversation with. Did you know that I'm interested in the Titanic? I like the Titanic, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I think that's one of the many things I love about you.

Speaker 1:

So about an hour ago we were recording an episode with iconic Titanic Titanic historian Don Lynch he literally wrote the books on the history of the Titanic and he's been down to the wreck site twice and James Cameron's historian on set. And so there's these magical moments in life where people who have a dream or have a passion or are following their heart just are, are blessed with these magical moments. Like him, his passion was the Titanic. He became the world, world renowned historian for, for everything Titanic. And then he finds himself on the set that James Cameron built, that is Titanic, to every last detail, and he's walking around the ships go, multi level sets and huge sound stages where he says, you know you could walk the halls and you'd never know you're on a movie set and to have that experience. But then to also go down. He went down to view the wreck site, sitting next to James Cameron in a submersible and just.

Speaker 1:

These moments in life that occur because you're following your heart and you're doing what you're driven to do. Sometimes these magical doors open and so you, you land in Los Angeles and you're, you land a role on your favorite show that you've been watching for years. Can you just talk about the like. I know it was a very stressful time for you and you dealt with a lot of hearing you talk about it. I was reminded a lot of like when I was thrown into the position that I currently have at my current job, like so much imposter syndrome and any day they're going to realize I'm not fit for this job and just show me the door. But were you able to enjoy it by the end and kind of recognize how special that was?

Speaker 2:

I was getting there by the end of the office, but it was hard because I think something I believe back then, which I still believe, is that Hollywood is certainly not a meritocracy, meaning, like, obviously, the person who gets the role it's not necessarily that they're the most talented person a lot of random. You know, currents have to converge to make anything happen and also the experience of getting paid to do what you love is such a ludicrous blessing and often with this television paid well that no one really deserves it. You know what I mean it's like, and I think I felt like I know there's better actors out there than me and I know there's people with more experience and I'm getting this insane kind of pot of gold dumped in my lap. And can I justify that? You know, as I've gotten older, I still basically believe that. I still believe it's not a meritocracy and I still believe that I'm sure there are more talented actors out there than me than could have acted in all the different parts that I've played. But what I will say is that I'm okay with that.

Speaker 2:

Now I think I've made my peace where it's like I work really hard, I really love the people I play. I try to show up with my whole heart and throw myself into it and I do the best I can and I'm grateful. And so if I happen to have won the lottery, I'll collect on it. I think I'm willing. I don't need it to be sort of justified anymore. I'll be like if it's me, it's me, I'm not gonna spit in God's face. You know what I mean. Like I'll take it. I don't necessarily always understand it, but I'll take it and enjoy it and try to, you know, give myself over to it when opportunity comes my way. But I think it's also very important to remember that, like when things are good and when things are bad, that that is not really a reliable thermometer for how good or bad the work you're doing is or you know your talent. I don't think success is a metric to be trusted, but I think the kind of internal experience it's exactly what you were talking about. If you feel like you're following your heart and you feel like you're moving in a direction, you're moving in a direction that feels creatively sincere, then that is a more sort of reliable guide to creative decision making and self-esteem and all that stuff.

Speaker 2:

But back then I don't think I knew that by the end I was getting a little more relaxed and a little better able to enjoy it, but I was still pretty panicky. It really wasn't until season three or four of Silicon Valley where I started to enjoy things and like I shot the pilot of Silicon Valley right and I called my mom on the way home, sobbing. I was like I'm just not good, I just blew it. I was terrible. My judge just thinks I'm a hack. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2:

And then years later, then I did the first season and I remember looking around and thinking God, these guys are geniuses, they're so funny, I can't keep up. And then by season three or four I'd come down and I just thought, well, if these people haven't fired me, they obviously like having me around well enough, and I can sort of relax and enjoy it. And at that point it's what you were saying about the Death and Dying class I started to think. I was like this is going to be done, like that. I was like these sets aren't going to be here in a minute and this character is never going to get to speak in a few years anymore, and so drink it in.

Speaker 2:

I remember going around and consciously thinking this will not be here. We will not be here. So don't commit the sin of being so mired in anxiety that you don't allow the gratitude and aliveness to sort of flood you. And that was a real turning point and I noticed that my work got better. When I did that, I think I thought if I'm not freaking out, I'm not working hard enough, and if I'm not working hard enough it won't be good. But when I allowed joy to be the fuel as opposed to anxiety and gratitude to be the fuel, then I felt like my work just got better and deeper and three year and more playful.

Speaker 1:

So yes, absolutely. And it's so wild to think that, like someone as talented as you and as renowned as you as a comedic genius still has these imposter syndrome feelings that really are crippling almost. Oh, it was really.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I remember I sought out my therapist who is still my therapist and I taught her. I was like, I was like I need to figure out a way to do work that isn't ego driven, because my feelings, my ego is basically. When I say ego, I don't mean like cocky or arrogant, but just that where it's not about me, where I'm a small part of a big thing and I don't have to think about myself so much, I can just sort of surrender to a, to a, to something I believe in, and I think that over time I've been able to do that more and more, and it's such a better way to live. It's, you know, but you do see it, you must see it all the time. There's people who have all kinds of success, who are maybe not all that talented, or people who are phenomenally talented, but they don't have a talent for self promotion, and so they, you know. I mean, you know, it's the tale of his time.

Speaker 1:

Is that? Is you know that, becoming comfortable with it and being able to embrace it was that kind of behind your shift to creating your own stuff, or how did?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think so. I think I was in a panic for so long that, once the panic died down, I had all this sort of mental real estate that used to be taken up with fear and I was like, ok, well, now that, now that I'm not spending all this time just freaking out, what do I actually care about? What do I actually want to do, what do I really want to put my money on? And it was these stories and these characters that I wanted to create and and make come alive. I mean, I'll tell you like a really weird story that I've never told anyone before and I feel a little trepidatious about telling. But, like whatever, we're friends and I can.

Speaker 2:

It's just going out to the world, but Well, I want to be careful about how I tell this story because it's a strange story. But basically, right after I got on on the office I they they were nominated for an award like an Emmy or a Sag Award or something and they had these swag suites and they sent out invites to everyone in the cast to a swag suite. I don't know if you're familiar with these. I don't know if they still have them.

Speaker 2:

For the ceremony or no. It was like before the ceremony, like a day before the ceremony or two days you would. I was invited to go to the W Hotel in Hollywood, which no longer exists, and they would take you up to the top floor of the hotel and I there are all these small women in high heels and black dresses and one of them would meet you and they would have a giant. It almost looked like a body bag. It was this giant black sack and you go around this room which is full of active Doing this, and you would go from table to table and you would take a picture with whatever it is that they were giving away and then it would go in the giant sack. So this little woman on her heels is dragging the sack around as it gets heavier and heavier in some sort of like bizarre, like nightmare version of Santa Claus, where it's like the sack's getting heavier and heavier and this little woman in her heels and she and I remember I kept trying to take it from her because I could please don't and she's like no, no, no, we'll get in trouble. So it's like you have to just let her drag this sack of garbage you know fancy garbage around and then I went to this one table that that my pillow guy was there. He was taking pictures with everyone, so weird. Anyway, I got to this one table and they were giving away trips. And they were giving away a trip to Fiji where they would give you the hotel room and the airfare for free. And I didn't have much money at this point because I just started doing the shower and so they gave it to me. And I remember my girlfriend at the time I was like if we ever get married, we will never be able to afford a honeymoon like this. So let's like go enjoy it and see what. You know, this is crazy. I feel like it was some paperwork error or something, but I'll take it.

Speaker 2:

So then I had to get my passport renewed right, and so I went to the bathroom and I was like I'm going to get my passport renewed and so I went to the passport office and there was a long line. It was the middle of the day and I was at the back of the line and there was a pregnant woman in front of me, there were old people in front of me and someone from the passport office went like this from like you know, the line goes all the way to the door. The woman from the passport office goes and I was like she goes, and I was like I don't know what's going on. This is weird. So I walked to the front of the line and she goes. I watched the office, she goes, come with me. And I was like, well, I don't have to. I was like I can, I'm happy to, like I, I, I, I, you know, I'd rather wait. She goes, come with me, and she grabs me and she pulls me into the passport office and we go up to the whatever floor the passport office was on, and she goes, wait in here. And she put me in a room with a view of the Empire State Building. So I'm sitting there looking at the Empire State Building in this room by myself. And she came back and she handed me my passport, meaning like it's the kind of thing where you're supposed to fill out the paperwork and to get a stamp and then they send it to you. She just handed it to me and when I went down the elevator and I started to leave, I swear to God, it sounds like made up but it's not.

Speaker 2:

I was passing this woman and her two little kids and she was going to the security guard. She goes they're little kids, they have to go to the bathroom. I have to step out of line, but I've been waiting a long time and I hear this guy say to her ma'am, rules are rules. And it was such a weird moment because, on the one hand, I'm getting all this crazy, like rich, rich treatment. I'm getting a treat to Fiji. I don't have to wait in the passport line. It's all this stuff is being.

Speaker 2:

On the other hand, I feel like I'm doing like not that great a job on the show. I've been on a television show for two seconds and it's not like some restaurant that's trying to get celebrities to eat there and I'm not a celebrity, but it's the US government. These people pay taxes. There's no, it's an insane, insane thing. And it and I remember calling my father and just being like I'm all mixed up Because, on the one hand, I really hit the lottery, like I'm getting these things, that that it's unimaginable. Like who gets a free trip to Fiji? I mean it's insane and I'm getting this like weird VIP treatment. On the other hand, it's revealing to me how random and like chaotic it is and like and wrong.

Speaker 2:

It's like there's this, there's a pregnant, she's got little kids. Like who gives a shit? If I'm like, you know what I mean, Like it, it. So anyway, I'm going on and on about it. But that was one of those moments where I think that, combined with my own imposter syndrome, like seeing the curtain peel back and being like, oh my God, this is how things happen, it's this unfair, it's this insane but also being on the kind of winning side of that, at least for that moment, was a very weird experience. So sorry, I talked for like a half hour, but that was weird. And and I don't mean to complain, because that's the other thing it's insane. Like you're complaining about your like fast passport experience and your free trip to Fiji, Like you monster, I don't mean like I'm not complaining, I'm just explaining that it was very confusing. I didn't know what to make of it.

Speaker 1:

You know Well, you're a considerate person with a, with a huge heart, and so I think and you're so introspective, that's what I was saying Like but at the top of the show is just like, the way you examine life and you're curious about life is so fascinating to me and that's why I love to talk to you. I could talk to you so much more, but I'm sure you're very busy. We're coming up on the hour here and I do want to talk about in the know. It comes out like this week and from all this self doubting, like suddenly you're. You're creating movies, shorts and a TV show for Peacock, co-creating with Mike judge, the comedic legend himself. And tell us, tell us about the show, if you could, sure.

Speaker 2:

That's a show about the third most popular MPR host named Lauren Caspian, and the people who work at his station with him, and it's a combination of stop motion so the people who did Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio these like world class stop motion animators, animated the show with little puppets and most of the show takes place in the offices of this MPR studio, but there are also interviews with real guests that Lauren, the stop motion puppet host, does so and those people are in video. They're not puppets. So we interviewed, like Mike Tyson and Ken Burns and Tika and Sarah and Hulory and all these amazing people and he interviews them and he's a very bad interviewer and it was just such a treat to get to make it. I mean, I'm so incredibly fun in these puppeteers.

Speaker 2:

I think something I think about a lot is that there's a tendency to reduce people to one thing. You know that that algorithmically it happens on social media. People do it to each other, people do it politically, where it's like, oh, you're just this one thing. But I think one of the beautiful things about fiction and art is it reminds you that people have all these contradictory parts, and one of the incredible things about stop motion is you have the actor who voices them, but then there's like 30 different animators who all get their crack at animating the character. So built into each one of these little characters is like 30 different people who have made them come alive, and so there's no getting around that they have multi-dimensionality because it's done by all these different folks and I thought they did such a beautiful job with it. I mean, the truth is like I don't.

Speaker 2:

I sometimes think I sound more neurotic or more tortured in interviews than I mean to, because I do think that that kind of existential confusion is a big part of life and work and all that stuff. But also the joy of it is overwhelming. The joy of getting to work with people who are not, the joy of getting to work with people who have live hearts and live eyes, who you know, who are excited to play, pretend with you, to get to, to see People will bring such beautiful materials from their past and from from from their imaginations. It's. It's like you get to see the most wonderful parts of people and you get to be parts of these, like little families that form and then disband and then reform in a different configuration.

Speaker 2:

I mean I truly feel so, so happy and lucky that I get the part taken, that part of it, and that's the part you can trust. It's what you're saying before about your heart. It's like all the bizarre money part and the promotional part and the and the and the influence trading and all of that can be so noisy that it can drown out that little whisper underneath which is like Is the? Is the whispered you most need to hear, which is like your creative instinct, your human instinct, and I've been so lucky to encounter so many people who have such a beautiful, where that little voice is so beautiful, it's so beautiful and and I consider you one of those people and I consider all Everyone in your family, one of one of those people I Called it, the heart's fire.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the heart's fire, fire.

Speaker 1:

Before we let you go real quick, I had a question I needed to ask you and it comes. It comes with a story first so.

Speaker 1:

I. I have another podcast that I co-host. It's called the magical mystery hour. We talk about mysteries, aliens, true crime, conspiracies, we cover it all. And my co-hosts her name is Amanda Benjamin. She's a huge fan of the office, huge fan of your work, and Her husband, david, who also has a program here on the network. But he saw you one day on the fairy to Catalina, I'm told, and he she was texting him take a picture of him, take a picture of him. And he was like no, that's creepy. So my question is Do you find times in life where you just notice people taking pictures of you and is it creepy?

Speaker 2:

That's such a funny question. Notice ever asked me that I'll be honest. Here's what I think. Someone asking for a picture never creepy.

Speaker 1:

Someone taking a picture surreptitiously Creepy do you notice it though, do you notice?

Speaker 2:

people in a while. And I remember on that, that the last time I went to Catalina Island, my partner but my, my girlfriend at that time and I had a serious Argument on the way to Catalina. We ended up having like the best time, but I think we're both just like stressed out, we've been late for the ferry and we were arguing. So if he'd taken a photo at that moment of like us like having an argument, it would have and I'd seen it. I would have been like buddy, like working it out right now, like please don't I like legit remember that, because it was like such a stressful journey to such a magical weekend or whatever it was. So thank you for not taking the picture. But if he had come up and been like would you mind if I take a picture for my wife, I would be like totally I'm happy to do it because it's so flattering when people like stuff you're in or their family members like stuff you're in. So that's my, that's my feeling about it.

Speaker 1:

Okay, well, he did not take the picture and he got in trouble for it, so Thank you.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, my hero, my night in shining armor, and thank you for protecting me.

Speaker 1:

Any last thing you want to mention before we release you and say you're free to the world?

Speaker 2:

No, I just I'm, I just am crazy about you and I'm, I really am so happy to get a chance to talk to you and I apologize for my long-windedness, but it was a treat and you ask really beautiful questions and thought-provoking questions, unsurprisingly and, yeah, I'm, I'm just happy that you had me.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, thrilled anytime I get to Somebody in the live chat. Just asked if your beef with Drake is over yet.

Speaker 2:

Oh no, it's gotten much worse. It's, it's, it's really becoming, I would say, dangerous, and only dangerous for him, because I'm very tough and he's very he's very small compared to me. So, drake, you've been warned, and Pull up, pull up, let's go.

Speaker 1:

You hear that rom, tell him, tell.

Speaker 2:

Talk to drink for me, please.

Speaker 1:

I cannot wait. It's it's a I treasure every moment we get to have a conversation and I cannot wait to to hopefully someday work in, collaborate on something, and I love you, sir, you too.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 3:

Just taking in every single thing, every single word that he says. I Mean I've got notes here. It was like being in the flow of life, following your heart, moving in a direction that is creatively sincere. I Mean these, these are things that just everybody needs to hear, to learn to do. If it's me, it's me. Take me for who I am, what I am, allowing joy and gratitude to be the fuel. Oh, my gosh, what great words. And because of that, because of that, his work became better and actually anybody's work Would become better. I think, whether you're a performer or just Working in an office, you know the joy and the gratitude. Let it be your fuel and Let it go and let it happen.

Speaker 1:

Call it a heart's fire, call it a creative whisper, but if it's always there and it's always tugging you and it's always nagging at you, you gotta pay attention to it, or you know you're. What are we doing here in life?

Speaker 3:

Exactly, and I know that you know, with, with Everly, with Zach, with you and I and other people who are in the performing business, actors, acting it's, it is lighting that hearts fire, that that creative whisper, letting it out. And I found a poem from pick me up poetry dot org that talks about acting and Just the different phases of it and how imagination is so important and part of it and Just working it, letting it go. And this is a poem from George Barlow. He's an American poet and it is just called acting.

Speaker 1:

Excited to hear it. Ladies and gentlemen, craig Jackman interpreting a poem by George Barlow, acting.

Speaker 3:

Imagination makes the actors art. The eager brain, the emotional, swift heart that realizes all the power to live and move and have one's being in that same sphere with the audience now is seeing. Whether it be right room or haunted hall, imagination is everything Depends the power to feel, through kiss on kiss, the living passion leap. The power to magnetize oneself, the first To feel to be most blessed or accursed. The power of rapturous joy, the power to weep. The power to feel, within some quiet room, ghost after ghost if need be, fill the gloom With shadowy shapes and sound. The power to love, as If a life depended on winning sweet lips. Air. The evening ended. This gift we seek, how seldom is it found, then? How the power speeds forth and holds each heart, recipient and Responsive to its art, art being life indeed. How the spectators hush their souls to hear yay, listen. With the spirit's intense ear, when a real genius spirit takes the lead.

Speaker 1:

I Turns out I have to make a correction to. I guess I misunderstood or I miss her, but Amanda didn't want David to take a picture of Zach. Surreptitiously, she was trying to get him to take a selfie. So, my bad, I misunderstood and I apologize for misrepresenting your your side of that story, amanda, I didn't mean it, but you're right, it was funnier during the conversation that I that I did misunderstand. Anywho, if you if this is the first you've heard of the magical mystery hour Podcast that I co-host with Amanda Benjamin and you're interested in mysteries, I invite you go find that, subscribe and binge it. We just finished season one and we talked about all kinds of mysteries bigfoot, aliens, conspiracies, true crime, as I mentioned. Who doesn't love a good mystery? And if you're that person who does love a good mystery, find us over there. Just search for magical mystery hour wherever you enjoy your podcasts or on the Vodacity Network on YouTube.

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Paul Carganilla

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