Modern Financial Wellness

EP: 018 Talking Finances With Erika Wasserman

August 21, 2024 • Jim Grace CFP®️ • Episode 18

Share episode

In this episode, I talk to Erika Wasserman, Your Financial Therapist, to explore the relationship between money and emotions. Erika shares her journey from learning finances from her father to a dynamic career that included significant life transitions, such as marriage, children, divorce, and inheriting assets. Through these experiences, Erika deeply understood money's impact on personal relationships and the importance of clear financial communication.

We talk about the crucial role of estate planning and life insurance, particularly for parents with children and aging parents. Erika gives great advice about reducing spending, setting financial boundaries, and using conversation tools to facilitate healthy money discussions. She also talks about the benefits of small, sustainable financial habits and introduces innovative methods, like using conversation cards, to improve financial wellness. 

We Talk About:

  • Importance of estate planning and life insurance
  • Communication between parents and children about financial matters
  • Financial support for aging parents
  • Setting boundaries in financial discussions
  • Challenges in talking about finances and overcoming them
  • Reducing spending and building sustainable habits
  • Practical tips for financial conversations
  • Aligning spending with personal values
  • Creating a “Yes Plan” for financial priorities
  • Importance of updating estate plans and documents
  • Erika's background and journey in financial therapy
  • Using conversation cards to improve financial communication


READ+LISTEN+LEARN:

Erika offered a great list of resources for helping with estate planning and money conversations:

  1. Books:
    • Cash Flow Cookbook by Gordon Stein
  2. Resources:
  3. Wellbeing and Music:
    • "War" by Katy Perry 

ABOUT ME:

My name is Jim Grace. I am a CFP®️ (Certified Financial Planner) and the Director of Wealth Management at Silver Pine Capital, LLC, (www.silverpinecapital.com) a registered investment advisory firm in Medfield, Massachusetts. ​

In my spare time I host a podcast and write about Financial Wellness & Wellbeing.  Check out some of my other work @  www.ModernFinancialWellness.com. On the website I try to unpack each episode a little further and also spotlight any other resources I think might be helpful to anyone trying to feel better about their finances.

Jim Grace [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Modern Financial Wellness, the podcast dedicated to helping you feel better about your finances. I'm your host, Jim Grace, and I'll be your guide as we discuss the psychology of money and explore the emotional aspects that shape our financial decisions and how we feel about them. A quick note before we start, although I do hope that you find the information on this show to be helpful, in no way are any of these discussions to be taken as specific financial advice. Please do your own research and talk to your own advisors, especially when making important financial decisions. Alright. Erica Wasserman, your financial therapist. Thanks so much for joining me on Modern Financial Wellness. It's great to have you here.

Erika Wasserman [00:00:48]:
Yeah. I'm super excited to have a great conversation or real conversation around money and emotions.

Jim Grace [00:00:56]:
Yeah. It's a loaded topic. So I'm I'm very grateful for your expertise and your time to help us unpack what what comes with those two things. Before we jump in, do you wanna just tell people a little bit about yourself and your business, who you are, and what you do, and then we'll tackle it from there?

Erika Wasserman [00:01:11]:
Yeah. Sounds good. So like all of us, I've been on a roller coaster of life. Never met anybody with a flat straight line. Not sure I ever wanna meet somebody with a flat straight line. Right? This is why we have interesting stories and experiences. So my journey has been, one of ups and downs and lefts and rights. I graduated from the University of Florida with a degree in finance, And math was fun and easy for me and something that I enjoyed, and I enjoyed with my dad.

Erika Wasserman [00:01:36]:
Like, it was just something we talked about sitting at the kitchen table, argued about, you know, doing homework, but overall was something that came naturally to me. My mom and my sister, not so much. And, as the years went on, I started trading stocks with him, and he became my financial accountability partner.

Jim Grace [00:01:54]:
Oh, wow.

Erika Wasserman [00:01:54]:
Really cool. Especially now as an adult, I see that that's not always the case across many families.

Jim Grace [00:01:59]:
Can I ask you a quick question there? Because this is something that's come up recently with a client where I wanna ask what did you feel that that was a healthy relationship that the conversations that you were having, learning from your father, did you was it comfortable for you to be having those conversations at at that time? How how was that experience when you were going through it?

Erika Wasserman [00:02:20]:
Yeah. For me, it was super comfortable because it was natural. It was just something that I can remember being in 4th grade and, you know, my prize for doing double math, you know, what was it double addition and things like that. So we're always were talking math in terms of and then I got, like, a reward afterwards. And then as we started growing, you know, he would be trading stocks, and we'd start talking about the stock market. And then when I went to go buy my first car, we started having these conversations again. So because we started off small and I'll give you a great example. And nowadays, it's different, so I do different things with my kids.

Erika Wasserman [00:02:53]:
But we go to the grocery store, and he'd take out his coins, you know, back in the day with the jiggling of, you know, all all my dad's coins in his pocket and and cash at the grocery store. That's why I say we don't do this anymore. And he would say to me, go make change. Right? And so I'd have to start doing math problems out in the world. And it rolled over, and it started to grow as I grow. I do it differently with my kids nowadays because who carries cash?

Jim Grace [00:03:19]:
Right. Right. Yeah.

Erika Wasserman [00:03:21]:
Yeah. So for me, it was very helpful having those conversations because I had

Jim Grace [00:03:24]:
a safe

Erika Wasserman [00:03:25]:
place to continue to create conversation and ask questions.

Jim Grace [00:03:29]:
Mhmm. Yeah. It's great to hear. And so the particular case I'm thinking about, had a father who was well meaning and well intentioned, but put a lot of pressure on it. And she wasn't comfortable with met the math. She wasn't comfortable with the subject matter, and all she kinda really received was the pressure and the stress and the seriousness of, you know, taking care of your money. So I was just interested in in how you experienced that, and it's a interesting, distinction. But I cut you off on your journey.

Erika Wasserman [00:03:57]:
You did. But I wanna echo on that a minute is because we all get our personal relationship with money from 3 things. One is our background. Right? So for her, her background was money was stressful to her, and it was taught to her in a stressful environment. And so that's her background. Add in religion, money might be seen as greed or doesn't buy happiness. Men are the ultimate decision makers. You have a certain amount to charity.

Erika Wasserman [00:04:24]:
That is messaging is passed down. And then your experiences. So if your experiences are positive, you do it again. Experience negative, you don't. I'll use a great example, and I keep using myself on this one. I had a horrible experience at the car dealership. I don't wanna go back. My car light's on.

Erika Wasserman [00:04:40]:
I know I need to go back, and I keep driving around with it. It's for a sensor, so I know, like, I can still drive the car. But I didn't like the feeling, and so I'm putting it off. Which in the long run might cost me more money and more aggravation because every day I have to look at that stupid light. And this is

Jim Grace [00:04:56]:
That's, like, typical avoidance. Right? Because it's gonna be a negative emotional experience and just not dealing with it.

Erika Wasserman [00:05:02]:
Right. And I have to put myself out there in an environment that I'm not comfortable in. And so we get our financial relationships the same way. So what you find is so, like, with your client, her experience wasn't always so positive. It didn't feel good. And so there might be some avoidance there. There might be some hoarding going on because that was the met the messaging that she received, and so spending might not feel good. And so yes.

Erika Wasserman [00:05:26]:
So money is emotional, and we get it those three things.

Jim Grace [00:05:30]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I'm glad we flushed that out right up front because I think it's gonna have a big part of our longer conversation here and how that shows up with couples. But Yeah. So you had a good experience with dad. You're trading stocks, and let's let you take it from there.

Erika Wasserman [00:05:43]:
Yeah. So then, you know, moved to New York City. Actually, I started working for IBM after I got my job, consulting. Moved to New York City in an apartment I couldn't afford with the new boyfriend who later became the husband. We bought our first house and moved overseas. So corporate America, got the opportunity to live in Japan for 2 years and China for a year.

Jim Grace [00:06:05]:
Oh, very cool.

Erika Wasserman [00:06:05]:
Had my first daughter, moved back stateside, left my job, had 2 more kids. So I had 3 kids in, 4 years, and got divorced. So, again, this roller coaster ride. We're going up. We're going down. We're going all sideways half the time. Difference was and I moved back to Florida and, you know, been here a decade now, over a decade, and discovered financial therapy shortly after my father passed away. And I knew what the money was about.

Erika Wasserman [00:06:32]:
My mom knew where the binder was. So she knew where the money was, but she didn't know what it was supposed to be for. That wasn't her role traditional role in in the marriage. And so I and I continue to help guide her in this. So along the line, I discovered financial therapy, and this was my big moment. You know, where I was like, I know nothing about cars, but I know how to have a converse a positive conversation about money that can help others.

Jim Grace [00:06:54]:
Right.

Erika Wasserman [00:06:54]:
So all of those twists and turns that I talked about in life, merging money when I moved in, you know, expanding money when I had children, separating money when I got divorced, inheriting money with my father. Right? The difference was I was in the driver's seat. I was in control through all of those shifts. The difference what I was seeing around the people around me was without a strong sense of finances. Their opportunity and options were different, and the feeling of self defeat kept coming through. So when I discovered financial therapy, I went to Kansas State, and I got a graduate certificate in financial therapy. I then joined the Financial Therapy Association. I was one of the first 15 to be certified, and now there are over 70 certified financial therapists in the country and growing every day because this is a topic that's so taboo to talk about, but yet it impacts literally every part of our relationship to the day we die and afterwards when we start talking about estate planning.

Jim Grace [00:07:51]:
Right. Right. So you've lived it. You've experienced it. But at the same time, we're very well prepared and had a really healthy relationship and education and lessons that you learned from your father. And therefore, you know, you've dealt with 2 of the big ones, these big transition life events of divorce and and loss and felt like you were in a spot to really take care of that. And then we're able to transition that into your next career, next chapter of your life, which is helping others through financial therapy.

Erika Wasserman [00:08:21]:
Absolutely. That and that was it. That was my purpose. And, again, know nothing about cars. I'm not gonna be a great runner, but I can have a conversation about money. So Awesome. I'm glad that I can put my skills to use to help others that did not grow up with that background or have the confidence to ask questions. They're scary sometimes because we've never done it, and we don't see it modeled.

Erika Wasserman [00:08:42]:
So what happens again, I'll use the car analogy. I know nothing about cars. I've never been under a car. How am I supposed to know what questions to ask of what's wrong with my car? The same with money. We don't skill our kids, our adults, you know, and the world to ask those right questions or any questions at all.

Jim Grace [00:09:01]:
Mhmm. So let's talk about money. You've mentioned 2 big life events that are impactful. They come up. They're disruptive, divorce, and and losing somebody you love. But I think in getting to know you, I think we also spend certain amount of both of our time working with the same types of folks who are just busy, successful people, right, who have a lot going on. And they have different roles within their household. They're running businesses.

Jim Grace [00:09:27]:
They're having kids. Their parents are getting older. There's just demands on their time and their attention and their emotional needs regularly. I'm squarely in this camp myself.

Erika Wasserman [00:09:38]:
Me too.

Jim Grace [00:09:38]:
So, yeah, I appreciate the admission. I think we all are. Right? And so I think it's obvious that there might be some challenges when something big happens like a divorce or somebody is lost. But I think all of us could benefit from thinking about some of these things. How do we kinda get to the table and start having a healthy relationship with money? So I guess when you work with couples that we've described and kinda use them as an avatar, what are some of the challenges that come up most often? What do you see as kind of being some common hurdles to get over when we when we at least start to try to get to the table. Yeah.

Erika Wasserman [00:10:15]:
So the first hurdle is there is not a single person that has the same background, religion, and experiences than you. Even in your home, if you look at your siblings, you you interpret things differently, your experiences are differently. And so now all of a sudden, you are partnered, a life partner with somebody who has different background, potentially religion, and experiences. I'll ask you this question, because most of you are married couples out here. I'll ask our listeners. So how long did it take you to say I love you to your partner? Jim, how about you?

Jim Grace [00:10:46]:
God, you're gonna put me on the spot. She's gonna listen to this. It was it took a while. It took a while. Probably within the 1st year, I think we were saying that when we were dating.

Erika Wasserman [00:10:56]:
Okay. So

Jim Grace [00:10:56]:
But I will find out, though, after the fact when this is released. I'll know for certain. But I think it was probably within the 1st year. We got pretty serious for

Erika Wasserman [00:11:05]:
months, let's say.

Jim Grace [00:11:06]:
Right.

Erika Wasserman [00:11:07]:
Okay. On average, it's 5 months to say I love you. Well, because, again, yes, some people are saying after 5 days, and, you know, some people are saying after 5 years. Right? So Right. The average is 5 months. How long did it take for you to share your credit card, your credit score, your student loans, or any debt that you have, or your salary even with with your partner.

Jim Grace [00:11:29]:
It was years. Years. Years after that. Yeah. Much longer. Yeah.

Erika Wasserman [00:11:33]:
So and again, back to your listeners, think about that. So the average is 9 months. And again, I've been asking these questions for years, and a lot of people come up with never. Yeah. I've been married for 20 years. My wife has no idea what my salary is. You know?

Jim Grace [00:11:49]:
And I should clarify. I mean, there's probably a general amount of conversation that we're having about money, but we're not getting into our statements. We're not looking at what the what any of it means. Right? So I might have known how much money she was making and vice versa or, you know, obviously, what we're spending money on, but we weren't having meaningful conversations about money and really getting into the details until much later in our relationship.

Erika Wasserman [00:12:12]:
Right. And so now you have somebody who you love. You are so in love. Right? You've said I love you. You're living together, baby, and you've all this, you know, togetherness, but you haven't talked about a major topic in your life, which is finances. And especially as you go buy a house, you have children, you have aging parents where the demands are different, but guess what? So was your background, religion, and experiences. So Right. What I find, yeah, the number one thing that couples come to me on, and I do couple sessions, is they don't understand each other because they haven't taken the time to learn how to communicate of what's important to them in their financial values.

Erika Wasserman [00:12:54]:
And one of the questions that I ask is, you know, what does your partner spend on that annoys you? And so I'll give a great example. I recently had a couple go through this, and he said, she buys plants. I don't understand. She buys plants. It just annoys me every time she buys a plant. Okay. So we talked about it. And I said, why do you like buying plants? And her response was, I used to live in New York City.

Erika Wasserman [00:13:17]:
I didn't have a balcony. So, therefore, I could never have a plant. I enjoy earth and plants. And, you know, for me now that we live in a place where I can have plants is a sign of success. So her buying a plant isn't about the extra $50 or I don't even know how much a plant is because I have a black thumb. But for her, that was something that added value to her life. Her partner didn't understand. So sometimes it's breaking down and asking some different questions and learning about what's really important to your partner and why, and the why is a big thing.

Jim Grace [00:13:51]:
Yeah. I've lived that myself. So as a financial planner, I'm studying our budget pretty regularly. I'm studying our spending. And one of the things that used to annoy me was my wife would spend blocks of time working from a restaurant for lunch or a coffee shop in the morning. And I would always circle those things and identify them as maybe that's a place that we can cut if we're trying to save money or reallocate our resources. But the more experience that I got in kind of this emotional side of money and thinking about those things and COVID forcing us to all work remote, what it came down to is that's really some of the only time she's out of the house during the week. Right? And to get out of the house, relocate, have a cup of coffee or a lunch, and get some work done, filled her up, gave her some energy.

Jim Grace [00:14:37]:
And it wasn't until we had that conversation did I feel more comfortable saying, alright. Well, that's something we just need to include in how we're gonna spend money moving forward because it's meaningful to her. So I'm glad that we talked about that. And what are can you just go a little bit further? What are some of those questions look like? How do we start to understand each other a little bit better when we're when we're thinking about who our partner is and where they they come from? How do you coach your clients on that?

Erika Wasserman [00:15:01]:
Yeah. So one of the questions that came to me, just like you're asking, is I don't even know how to start the conversation. So what I did is I created a deck of cards. So these are 50 conversation cards called Let's Talk Finances. This is the couple's edition. It's available on Amazon because we don't know how to start the questions. So this gamifies it a little bit where you can pick a card or 2 to say, you know, tell me your background growing up without using the words upper middle or lower class. And all of a sudden, you're storytelling.

Erika Wasserman [00:15:32]:
And we relate better when we storytell. You know, I couldn't go on the field trip because my parents couldn't afford it, Or my mom was always the room mom and paid for the snacks. Right? So all of a sudden, you're sharing how you grew up, and then it understands why maybe you splurge at the Dollar Tree or for your kids, you know, parties or things like that because that's what your experiences were. So these are just small examples. Some of the questions also is, what's your favorite bill to pay?

Jim Grace [00:16:00]:
What do you hear when you ask that question? What are your some of your favorite answers?

Erika Wasserman [00:16:04]:
Oh, it varies. It varies. Favorite bill to pay could be anything from my monthly massage. Right? Because it makes me happier. Mine, personally, when my kids were younger was my nanny because it allowed me to be a human. So I couldn't rather shift spend and pay her because Right. That made me feel good. Now as a single mom with 3 kids, mine is my mortgage because I pay it every month.

Erika Wasserman [00:16:31]:
My kids have lived in the same house for 12 years, and Right. And so for me, it feels good. So when you start identifying what feels good to you and your money is energy, you start aligning. And so for other people, you want to feel good about where your money is going. So start thinking about what your favorite bill is. And by the way, start thinking about your least favorite bill and how do you reduce that.

Jim Grace [00:16:54]:
So we wanna understand ourselves a little bit better. Right? We wanna get to the table, start having conversations with folks. When going back to the dates, right, that you said I love you and when people start talking about money, what's your recommendation or suggestion for folks? When should you start having these conversations?

Erika Wasserman [00:17:13]:
As soon as possible. Right? As you're getting to know somebody, start asking some questions. And you don't have to be as direct as what your credit score, you know, but you can be as well as you're looking at, oh, I wanna buy a new car. I'm looking at a car and you know, but it's a 0 point you know, 0 interest rate or what's what's what's your interest rate? You know, like, you can start

Jim Grace [00:17:36]:
Right.

Erika Wasserman [00:17:36]:
Kind of slowly integrating some of these conversations in here. Like, retirement's really important to me, so I started retire, you know, retirement account early. You know, what is your what does that look like for you? And they might say, I I haven't paid for retirement. Nobody told me about it. I was just with a client yesterday who was saying nobody taught me to invest in retirement. So when I got my first job, I needed all the money. I was a school teacher. So, like, I was living in the now.

Erika Wasserman [00:18:03]:
I wasn't thinking about putting a money away, and nobody told me. I didn't have anybody to have conversations with. So I think that's the other thing is when somebody gives you feedback of where they are, maybe ask, well, why why has that happened? Because Right. It might be that's all I knew.

Jim Grace [00:18:20]:
Right. I thought of the question I wanted to ask you, is the space creating the space for this conversation to take place, what's a healthy time and place for these conversations? Because I feel like we're all if we go back to who we're talking about, we're all busy. We're all up to our eyeballs in life. We have a lot coming on at us, lots of demands, and I find sometimes that I'm interested in it. It's my profession, so I will be guilty sometimes of not forcing, but bringing up this topic when it's just absolutely not the right time. Right? Because both of us aren't in a good space headspace. We've got other demands. Do you have any suggestions or ideas to how to create a healthy space for these conversations?

Erika Wasserman [00:19:03]:
Yeah. So I'm gonna give you a few. The first one is schedule it. Schedule it like you would any other business plan that you have or business meeting. Look. We're gonna do some financial meetings once a month or every other week. What time works best for you? Well, let's do Sunday morning while the kids are watching cartoons. Like, we'll get a cup of coffee, and we'll go sit out back.

Erika Wasserman [00:19:23]:
Cool. Right? Or Tuesday night with a glass of wine, you know, is generally, like, at 9 o'clock after our favorite show, or or the reward is we get to watch an episode of our favorite show after we spend 30 minutes. And block the time. Also, write down the question that you wanna answer that, period. So just like you would for business meeting, have an agenda. Don't start throwing 18 different conversations. So we're in headed into the summer right now. So maybe it's talking about summer spending.

Erika Wasserman [00:19:53]:
What is that gonna look like? Kids are in camp. Will those expenses change? You might need to work from the coffee shop more because the kids are home. You know, so the expenses might change. We're gonna be spending on on, vacation. Where can we shift money? So I really believe in shifting money. I don't like the word budget. I like yes plans.

Jim Grace [00:20:14]:
Neither do I.

Erika Wasserman [00:20:15]:
Right? Yes plans. What do you wanna say yes to this summer? So we start saying the yes to things, we're able to say no to others. So, yes, we're gonna go on a week vacation. Cool. But does that meet our yes plan while we're standing at Target checking out? You know? Right. Friends invite us over or out for dinner and the babysitter and everything else. Is that gonna get us to our yes? If it does, great. If it doesn't Right.

Erika Wasserman [00:20:37]:
Shift your mindset.

Jim Grace [00:20:39]:
Yeah.

Erika Wasserman [00:20:39]:
Back to having the conversation, though. Here's a couple other tips. Sometimes having that face to face conversation is challenging. Looking at your partner, vulnerability, feel of maybe rejection or embarrassment is car rides are amazing, is, hey, let's go for a car ride. You know, or over the summer, when you're out on a ride, you're sitting shoulder to shoulder. So the vulnerability is a little bit different.

Jim Grace [00:21:06]:
And Wow. That's an interesting idea.

Erika Wasserman [00:21:08]:
Grab the deck of cards. Right? You can make it part of the road trip too and and add in some questions while you're going or, or pre write some questions ahead of time that you wanna ask. But, again, the car ride, the side to side really works out well.

Jim Grace [00:21:24]:
Yeah. That's great. Because I you know, it makes a lot of sense. Right? Scheduling some time, being consistent with it, being organized and having an agenda, knowing what you're gonna talk about just like you would a business meeting or anything else you have to tackle.

Erika Wasserman [00:21:36]:
For even a doctor's appointment. Right? You're gonna go in

Jim Grace [00:21:38]:
with,

Erika Wasserman [00:21:38]:
I wanna these questions when you go to the cardiologist. And when you go to your GP, it's gonna be a different list of questions. The same thing with meaning for finances.

Jim Grace [00:21:47]:
But I love the idea of changing the physical space because sometimes there are some people that I work with just sitting down face to face and having this conversation about finances itself feels overwhelming. Right? So just to be able to change that physical space, I think, is a really cool idea.

Erika Wasserman [00:22:03]:
Yeah. And and the last one is, for all of our couples out there, you can use this in other areas. I'll I'll give you permission. It's come up with a code word. So anything from, you know, palm tree to, banana rama. I mean, you you could become up whatever word you want. But the idea is you and I both know when we get into a fight or we're in a discussion, we'll call it not even a fight yet. It's not gonna go anywhere.

Erika Wasserman [00:22:31]:
Nobody's gonna be heard, and we're headed south. And come up with the code word to use. But when you come up with the code word, also come back with how you're coming back to the conversation. So, for example, some of my clients do a 10 minute timer. One of them is in charge of setting the timer for 10 minutes. The other does a walk around the block. So now all of a sudden, you're changing scenery again, getting your endorphins going. And I have one.

Erika Wasserman [00:22:55]:
They're adorable couple. One of the things that bothered her was he was always buying stuff on Instagram. So I said, okay. What's gonna be your callback? And she goes, well, we have a dance button. So there's, like, a you know, like, the Staples button. Like Yeah. There's a button that that you that you hit, and everybody has to stop in the house and do a dance. And so the funny thing is, like, oh my god.

Erika Wasserman [00:23:14]:
I need that. Where'd you get? She goes, Instagram. So we're putting his Of course. Uh-huh. We're putting his Instagram spending to use. And they have to hit the dance button and do a dance and then come back. So Awesome. A code word is really important and to be able to be exercised and respected.

Erika Wasserman [00:23:31]:
So come back to that conversation.

Jim Grace [00:23:33]:
Right. Yeah. That's another great idea. Because oftentimes, you end up with a situation where, at best, you're just kind of agreeing to disagree and moving away, but not really getting back and solving anything or working through it. Right? So being able to take a break, I think that's another another great idea. Thank you for that. I wanted to ask you about the Yes plan a little bit. So it sounds like the Yes plan might be a good way to start to connect the dots between how you're spending money and the things that you're talking about being important to you.

Jim Grace [00:24:01]:
Yes. And that's something that that I see a lot oftentimes on my side. We're sitting down with a couple, and then we get into spending and cash flow, and it becomes this exercise of measuring what they're spending our money on and maybe saying we need to do things differently, but it's disconnected from the things that are important, the things that are meaningful, the things that we truly wanna be spending our money on. And that seems like this yes plan is a good way to kinda connect those two dots. Could you you know, do you have any other thoughts on that or any other comments you can make for us on on the yes plan?

Erika Wasserman [00:24:33]:
Yeah. So for me, a yes plan also gets both of you on the same page. What are we agreeing to say yes to? And because we have young families or families in the audience is is a yes plan could be a yes to buying a home. It also could be a yes to a summer vacation. And I'll give a great example is when you start saying yes to things, I also encourage you to come up with a visual for it. See it. So put a picture up of it. So if it's that new home or it's that vacation to Ireland, you know, put a picture of it and start talking about it.

Erika Wasserman [00:25:05]:
Going back to conversations and background, talk about it with your kids. There is a great way to get a family involved in getting to your yes is and I have several families that do this, is they wanna go on vacation. They wanna go to Ireland, let's say, and it's gonna cost $10,000. Family of 4, probably more. But, you know, let's let's just go with that.

Jim Grace [00:25:24]:
It's good to have a goal.

Erika Wasserman [00:25:25]:
Yeah. And they wanna go next summer. So what they did is and I is does a chart, and they're gonna color in the country of Ireland. They can color in a thermometer to reach that goal of $10,000 because they're gonna say yes to go to Ireland. So anytime they're at the grocery store, they're out shopping, the kids wanna go out to eat, the question is, do we want does this align to our yes plan? And if it does, great. Absolutely. If it doesn't, let's do this instead tonight. Move that money over right away.

Erika Wasserman [00:25:58]:
So move that $50, move that $20 and color it in. If you're wanting to get the younger kids involved, all of a sudden asking for all the toys and the crayons and all that kind of stuff when they see the adventure they're gonna go on, they're gonna put the toy back and let them come in and color that $5 or $20, right, that they just saved. And everybody starts working towards the yes plan.

Jim Grace [00:26:21]:
Wow. Yeah. I love that on so many levels, especially getting the kids involved is, again, a healthy lesson about where you're gonna spend money, what resources you have. But I also I just think that it's a good way to avoid the budgeting conversation that I see most often, which is just an exercise in you and I of telling our partner that they're doing something wrong. Right? You need to spend less. I need to do something a little bit differently and not aligning the things that are are going to be most meaningful and and make that that family the most happy. So I love the yes plan a lot.

Erika Wasserman [00:26:56]:
I equate a budget to a diet. Right. Short term, gonna rebel at some point, and generally end off in a worse situation than before I started, where a yes plan to me is a lifestyle. So it's about shifting. So if you love live music, great. Let's go live music. I love live music. But I might be going to the concert in the park or the $20 ticket at a local, like, smaller theater than spending $1,000 for a concert ticket.

Erika Wasserman [00:27:24]:
And then that extra money, I'm able to shift into my yes plan

Jim Grace [00:27:29]:
Love it.

Erika Wasserman [00:27:29]:
Without denying myself, what what brings me joy in a smaller day to day basis.

Jim Grace [00:27:34]:
Right. Right. So that's fantastic. So we've talked about getting to know our partner a little bit better, having those conversations as soon as possible. We kinda started in the space of challenges that you see. Are there any other besides not knowing where our partner is coming from, what are some of the other challenges that you see in your practice that are common amongst busy, you know, couples with kids?

Erika Wasserman [00:27:56]:
I'm gonna hit 2, and I'll let you pick which one we or both we can talk about. The first one is estate planning.

Jim Grace [00:28:04]:
Okay.

Erika Wasserman [00:28:04]:
Super uncomfortable conversation for a lot of people, but now that you have children, the importance of estate planning, life insurance, and sitting down together and making making those phone calls to an attorney, make sitting down together and building out the plan also takes communication and commitment in our busy days. And so, you know, half things fall off my list, you know, it's how do you get that back on your list and make sure it's updated. So that's really important. And the other one is aging parents.

Jim Grace [00:28:32]:
Okay.

Erika Wasserman [00:28:33]:
Back to our background, religion, and experiences, people have different beliefs on how and where they support their parents.

Jim Grace [00:28:40]:
With huge financial impact.

Erika Wasserman [00:28:42]:
Huge financial impact.

Jim Grace [00:28:43]:
Right. Let's start there. And I do wanna talk about the estate planning piece. But let's let's dig into that a little bit. So, again, in this demographic, my wife and I, our parents are both in their seventies and getting older. What do you commonly start to talk to your clients about with aging parents? What are they facing? And how do they start those conversations?

Erika Wasserman [00:29:05]:
Yes. To all of it. I'm also in a similar situation. So it's about having open conversations with your parents that you probably never had before. So there's 2 major conversations that happen here. 1 is with your parents of, like, where where are the documents? Are they updated? Is there anything that I need to know? Because if not, I'm going to be digging through your drawers, and I don't wanna do that. And you don't want me to do that. Right? We want we are

Jim Grace [00:29:35]:
all grieving. Right? You're hunting on a scavenger hunt, looking for forms you don't understand and statements while you're supposed to be spending some time grieving and working through laws. Right? Terrible time to be hunting down documents.

Erika Wasserman [00:29:48]:
Exactly. So the that's a good conversation to say, look. I'd like to set up some time with you because at some point and and what I do with my mom is also by the way, here's my information. Right? So here's where my stuff is kept. So it's not just a one way conversation. It's like, listen. I went to the estate planner. I you know, here's my every year, I update my document.

Erika Wasserman [00:30:11]:
I put it in a safe. This is where it is. So it's a two way conversation also. I think that that's it was important for me that she felt trusted with my information as much as she trusted me with hers.

Jim Grace [00:30:25]:
Right.

Erika Wasserman [00:30:25]:
So that's enough that's one way of going about it. But but having those conversations and if your parents aren't ready, then make some suggestions. Or can I schedule an appointment for you? Maybe they don't know who to ask. And, again, this is a conversation that they haven't had before. So I would start with there on a high level is just say, are you prepared? Where is this? Is it updated? If not, how can I support you in this? Can I make some phone calls? Because in the long run, it's going to help you. So Right. That's a good starting place. With your partner, it's a very different conversation.

Erika Wasserman [00:30:59]:
With your partner, it's and especially if you're married and you have kids at this point is, what is your feelings of supporting adult parents, you know, adult family members? It could be an uncle. It could be anybody. And hear them out and then ask why. Because the reasoning could be important or not important. Right? But but it has an importance to them. And then ask the question of, well, how much is that gonna take or how much do we need to allocate in your dreams, right, in in your wishes, and find out the number. So you're having clear communication. Then go back and look at your numbers and say, yes, that can work or no, that can't work.

Jim Grace [00:31:37]:
Right.

Erika Wasserman [00:31:37]:
And I have clients that go into debt taking care of their parents because they don't have clear communication. So a parent especially first generation. Right? A parent will say, I needed to get to Dominican Republic and it's gonna cost $1,000 because I'm leaving on Tuesday. And it's expected that they pay for the plane to get for their parents to go back to their home country.

Jim Grace [00:31:56]:
And that gets back to knowing who your partner is, where they come from, their experience, what's expected of them culturally. Right? All that communication that we talked about upfront.

Erika Wasserman [00:32:05]:
Right. And the conversation then to that person back to their parents is, I will support flying home. Right? But there is a $500 cap on plane tickets or $1,000 for the year that I can do. So having some clear boundaries is helpful for everybody. Again, might be really uncomfortable in the beginning, but I this is what I can afford to do, and I wanna help and support you.

Jim Grace [00:32:29]:
Boundaries, I'm glad that this came up. I wanna click in on that that term boundaries a little bit and maybe a great context. What's your experience like? What do you see with the clients that you're working with on establishing healthy boundaries? We just touched on it a little bit in this idea of putting a cap on certain things. But let's assume most people wanna be supportive of their spouse or their partner and obviously respectful of their family. How does one's, if there's a disagreement about what those boundaries should look like, what is a healthy conversation about it? What is an example of that in a healthy way?

Erika Wasserman [00:33:04]:
Let's go back. Again, I let's use diet as a word and and lifestyle, and and we have boundaries around food. You have some people that say I'm completely gluten free. We have some people that are dairy free. We have some right. We have people who eat dessert every night of the week, and we have people who eat dessert once a month. Right? And there's something in between. So everybody's boundaries are also gonna look different.

Erika Wasserman [00:33:26]:
The difference is we have very clear, often clear boundaries in what we eat with nutrition.

Jim Grace [00:33:32]:
Right.

Erika Wasserman [00:33:32]:
We have boundaries of how often we work out or how much weight we're gonna put on our on our workouts, right, lifting. With finances, we often don't have boundaries put in place because we haven't been taught them, and we don't know how to talk about them. And nobody's asked you, what is your boundary around loaning money to a friend? So when you start putting some boundaries in place upfront, the conversations get a little clearer. Now when they don't align, it's again about the why. It's about understanding what's important to you and what you're willing to shift. So listen. My boundary is I wanna support my parents a $1,000 a month. Not 1500, not 500.

Erika Wasserman [00:34:12]:
It's a 1,000. Okay. Great. With that 1,000, we need to move 500 from somewhere else to accommodate your goal with your family and my goal with my family. So how are we gonna shift? So you can make it a priority, and it might come out to 808100. Right? And and but it's it's having those conversations and agreeing together. I had a client who we did a a worksheet to find out their spending, and they were overspending. And I said, sit down together, see where you wanted to shift.

Erika Wasserman [00:34:41]:
And they came back, and you just zeroed out line items. And I met with them, and I said to to her, did you agree on this? And she goes, no. Because it's it wasn't worth the fight. It took it saved hours of conversation. And I said, but you understand because you both didn't agree to this. This is not lasting.

Jim Grace [00:34:57]:
Right. We've just kicked the can down the road on something potentially I'd imagine more more serious, which is some kind of conflict about it.

Erika Wasserman [00:35:05]:
And he had an moment in that moment, and he goes, I missed the assignment. Yes. Right. You did. These are hard conversations because they're we're uncomfortable we haven't had them before.

Jim Grace [00:35:16]:
Yeah. Especially, you know, I think of the bigger example within aging parents is where they're gonna live. And I've seen that where I have a couple and one spouse or partner has just come to the table without even much thought that if mom or dad get older and sick, that they could come live with us. And that is exactly the opposite of what the the other spouse or partner had in mind. And they just haven't talked about it, but now they have to start to make these decisions and unpack these conversations. And that's more than just a huge financial commitment, a huge emotional physical commitment to have an aging parent or family member in your home. So just like everything else, it sounds like the sooner we can start to have these conversations, understand what we will or won't agree to, what our boundaries are. It's just, you know, makes total common sense to start having these conversations now.

Erika Wasserman [00:36:08]:
And I'll use that as a great example because and maybe it's why are you hesitant to move data into the home? And be honest about it because I lose my privacy because of this. Okay. How do we make it that you don't lose your privacy? Again, set up a boundary. Dad doesn't come out of his room after 8 o'clock at night. And, you know right? I mean, like, there's ways we go away at 1 month a weekend where it's just us. You know? There's ways to get creative when you have conversation and in a problem solving mode. Relate this back to work. If somebody came in and just said, I'm doing it this way and we have to get this done, the rest of the team doesn't jump on board and and meet meet the deadline and exceed.

Erika Wasserman [00:36:50]:
You need to get buy in. You need to get collaboration. You need to get conversation, and it's the same with financial decisions. Yeah.

Jim Grace [00:36:57]:
Real quick. I just wanna jump over the estate planning, topic, if you don't mind, because I think it's an interesting space to think about tough conversations because no one wants to think about dying or getting older, quite frankly. That's probably a bigger one. But for this conversation, if we just think about passing away and all the things we need to get done just to practice good financial hygiene and having an estate plan, Guardianship is the other thing that I think comes up oftentimes with the couples that I talk to. It's very difficult, especially if they both come from supportive families, to decide who gets our kids, who's gonna take care of our kids, and that's often where I see a disagreement that leads to them not getting the plan in place, which is probably at the end, a problem. Right? So

Erika Wasserman [00:37:42]:
Well, then they become custody of the state, and then Right. It's worse.

Jim Grace [00:37:46]:
Right. So in thinking about being vulnerable and having a tough conversation and needing to face that, do you have any tips for for clients that are entering or should be doing some estate planning, but maybe having a difficult time communicating about it. Is there anything there you wanna share?

Erika Wasserman [00:38:02]:
Yeah. As far as, like, the guardianship, which is a big one, but everybody changes also. So who you pick today might not be who's available in 2 years or 5 years. And so knowing that this is decision today doesn't mean it's gonna be your forever decision. And maybe that's a little bit helpful in these conversations, because the cousin or the sister that lives down the street today might not be in a situation 3 to 5 years from now. And so it can change. And to leave that open is, yes, we're gonna go with x family member today, but we were gonna revisit this in 3 years, or we're gonna revisit this if her life situation changes, and both agree on that. I think that will be helpful also.

Erika Wasserman [00:38:47]:
Also, with the state planning, it's not just about death and dying in your seventies. I had a client in their thirties have overnight a tragic event happened and became paralyzed. Right? You know, breathing tube, 3 small kids, They happen to have the power of attorney, the health benefit all done, and here's where it got interesting. The mother and the white didn't agree on the treatment.

Jim Grace [00:39:12]:
Oh, wow.

Erika Wasserman [00:39:12]:
But because the health documents were in place for the wife to make the decisions, she was able to make the decisions.

Jim Grace [00:39:21]:
Right. Right. And that's that's a huge one. I'm glad you shared because I because unless you've experienced that, and it doesn't happen very often, but it does happen. In the famous case is Terry Schiavo in Florida many, many years ago was on life support, and it became this battle between husband and family. And those things, it's important to have your wishes laid out ahead of time, agree to them, and get those things in place, isn't it?

Erika Wasserman [00:39:45]:
It it is. And, again, these are things that when you're young and healthy, you don't think about, but you need to. And especially if you have young family members, right, little kids running around, you wanna make it as easy for everybody involved. So take the time, put it on your list, and and make sure that you start your estate plan as soon as possible if you haven't, and or make sure it's updated because people around us, their lives have changed just like ours have.

Jim Grace [00:40:12]:
Right. Right. So some sound financial advice from Erica in this conversation about broader financial well-being. It'll help you feel better. So we've had a wide ranging conversation, which I really appreciate because I think there's a lot of rabbit holes I, you know, love to pick your brain about when it comes to couples and money and emotion and and everything. Is there anything else you'd like to share for our avatar of the professional successful couple who's just busy and has a lot going on? Are there any other tips you love, tricks you like to introduce to those folks besides the cards, obviously, which we'll definitely spotlight? Is there anything else you would wanna leave us with before I let you go?

Erika Wasserman [00:40:49]:
Yeah. Listen. We're gonna make mistakes. We're gonna make mistakes with money. We all do, everybody from the ultra rich to the ultra poor. Right? Just like with their eating. You were gonna splurge once in a while and have, you know, the extra cake or a glass an extra glass of wine, whatever. Right? The same with money.

Erika Wasserman [00:41:06]:
So, like, if you get off track for a day, a week, a month, you can get right back on. So forgive yourself, move on, maybe even laugh about it, You know? And be like, I cannot believe we just spent all that money at dinner last night and but we had such a great time, and we're gonna pay the bill for it and move on and probably not do that for another year or 2. Right? So so take that moment and just say, yeah. I really messed up, but that's okay because I can get back on track. And just know that with money, you can get back on track. It's a math equation. You can increase income, decrease spend. And by talking about it and aligning with your values, you could still do it and live a full life.

Jim Grace [00:41:46]:
I love it. It's been great. A couple of final questions related to this topic or not. Are there any books that you'd recommend that you really love, other podcasts that you're listening to that are tackling some of these things that you think might be helpful to spotlight for folks? Of course, we're gonna spotlight the new card game, and I would encourage anybody to check that out. It's on Amazon like like Erica said. Any other resources that we you might wanna put out into the world for us to link to that people can check out?

Erika Wasserman [00:42:17]:
So for resources, Cash Flow Cookbook is a great one by Gordon Stein.

Jim Grace [00:42:22]:
Okay. Cool.

Erika Wasserman [00:42:23]:
It's like a recipe to how to, like, reduce some of your spending, areas to look at, things that maybe your parents didn't teach you that is out there. So that's conversation just conversation just keeps growing on this topic. So just keep listening. I also would recommend, a board of directors is have a bunch of people and resources that you use to bounce ideas off of. So if it's a financial a legal person, a a chef that you have in your network. Right? I called up my board of directors because not one person's gonna have all the answers. And by the way, your partner doesn't have all the answers because they are very successful in one area of business and you might be in another. Well, that carries too.

Erika Wasserman [00:43:14]:
There's so much in the world that we don't know. So Yeah. Get yourself a board of directors of trusted resources that you can bounce ideas off off of, ask questions, and, and not be embarrassed. Or if you're embarrassed, at least laugh about it with them.

Jim Grace [00:43:26]:
Yeah. That's all great advice. I'm I'm glad we wrapped on that as far as resources because that's what it's all about. Right? Just helping each other, sharing resources, learning from one another. Such, such a great idea with the board of directors. Final question or 2. This is a show about financial well-being. Well, well-being overall, are there any habits, rituals, routines, things that you do that just make you feel better and help you kinda deal with some of the difficult conversations and everything that we just talked about.

Erika Wasserman [00:43:54]:
Music. Music makes everything better. So if you have ADHD and you wanna do your finances, set a music timer. So create a theme song, get a hype song, like, grab grab some music. It makes it great. And, also, like anything else, a great habit is look at it. Look at your money. Open up your statements.

Erika Wasserman [00:44:15]:
And if that's a big step for you, great. And then once a week, put it in your calendar that you're just gonna look at the money. For some people, just opening up the accounts is overwhelming. And then as you get into it, you're able to do more and more. So just like, you know, I say I don't like running. Right? The first time you run a block, the second time you can run a block and a half, and you start building. It's the same with your relationship with finances, is start off small and build sustainable habits that you can grow off of.

Jim Grace [00:44:42]:
That's awesome. What is your favorite song? Your pump up song where you're gonna open your statements and deal with your money. What do you have a fire up song that you go to? War. War?

Erika Wasserman [00:44:53]:
War. Katy Perry. War.

Jim Grace [00:44:54]:
Oh. Oh, got you. Got you. Awesome. Cool.

Erika Wasserman [00:44:57]:
That song gets me hyped. I could do this. We got this. You know? Kinda

Jim Grace [00:45:00]:
We got this. Yes. Awesome. Very cool. Last question, then we'll let you go. Where do people check you out? Any websites, socials, anything you wanna spotlight for us before we say goodbye?

Erika Wasserman [00:45:10]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So the best way of reaching me is on my website, which is your financial therapist.com. I'm on, LinkedIn, Instagram, your financial therapist, and the cards let's talk finances, couples edition is available on Amazon.

Jim Grace [00:45:26]:
Great. Great branding, by the way, for the business name. Congratulations on that. Erica, thank you so much. Again, I think I just felt like I scratched the surface on all of these things. You're such an amazing resource for us to explore all things couple and money and emotions. So thank you so much for your time and expertise, and thank you everybody for listening. We'll see you next time.