4. Walking the High Wire of Creativity and Commercialism

Ever feel torn between creating the perfect masterpiece and the urgency to release your work into the world? Allow us to guide you through this dilemma. In our deep conversation, we grapple with this delicate balance, stress the significance of understanding our own motivations, and address the pressure to 'level up' in life that intensifies as we age.

As creators, we often walk a tightrope between the necessity to earn and the desire to create meaningful work that resonates with our audience. We share our thoughts on the importance of community among creators and the correct mindset. We also spare a moment to reflect on the reality of our daily lives and the crucial need to make wise decisions with our time and resources.

Lastly, we delve into the realm of letting go – the power of being present, surrendering to the flow of ideas, and the concept of 'controlling the stack'. Listen to our unique discussion about exploring 'controlling the stack' in work and finances, the potential value of conversational podcasting, and knowing when to stop refining and finally release your work. Join us for this journey of self-discovery, wisdom, and creativity. -Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.

Show Notes:

It's a Wonderful Life - https://bit.ly/3PFHThF
Matt's FilmConvert Video -    • Comparing 16mm Film 🎥 to Video 📹 | Is... 
The Toymaker -    • Short Documentary | THE TOYMAKER | Ba... 
General Dodge - https://vimeo.com/622537380?share=copy
Oppenheimer Medium Format Black & White Film -    • Oppenheimer: Shot On Kodak Film 
Mr. Destiny - https://bit.ly/3PNfuGK
Mr. Beast's Interview with Colin & Samir -

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.

Links To Everything:

Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT

Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT

Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT

Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT

Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG

Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Well, what's your point, mr Potter? My point, my point is I want to hire you, hire me.

Speaker 2: 0:06

I want you to manage my affairs, run my properties. George, I'll start you out at $20,000 a year $20,000 a year. You wouldn't mind living in the nicest house in town, buying your wife a lot of fine clothes, a couple of business trips to New York a year, maybe once in a while to Europe. You wouldn't mind that, would you, jones, would I?

Speaker 1: 0:38

You're not talking to somebody else around here, all right, you know, this is me. You remember me? George Bailey, george Bailey, george Bailey, whose ship has just come in, provided he has enough brains to climb aboard.

Speaker 2: 0:53

Ha, oh, it's a macro. Well, how about the billing loan? Oh confounded man, are you afraid of success? I'm offering you a three-year contract at $20,000 a year, starting today. Is it a deal, or isn't it? Well, mr Potter, I'm offering you a three-year contract at $20,000 a year.

Speaker 1: 1:23

Well, Mr Potter, I I know I ought to jump at the chance, but I I just uh. I wonder if it would be possible for you to give me 24 hours to think it over.

Speaker 2: 1:32

Sure, sure, sure, you go on home and talk about it to your wife. I'd like to do that. Yeah, in the meantime I'll draw up the papers. All right, sir?

Speaker 1: 1:44

Okay, george, mr Potter, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Wait a minute here, wait a minute. I don't need 24 hours. I I don't have to talk to anybody I know right now and the answer's no, no, oh God, you sit around here and you spin your little webs and you think the whole world revolves around you and your money. Well, it does. Mr Potter, in the, in the whole vast configuration of things, I'd say you were nothing but a scurvy little spider, you, and that goes for you too, and it goes for you too.

Speaker 2: 2:31

It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer, and summer there's a balance for sure, but you know it's embracing that seasonality of you.

Speaker 4: 2:46

Don't have to put something out every day.

Speaker 3: 2:49

And the tools have made it so we can. Yeah. To a certain extent. And so I wonder, like, how universal is the creator's sort of impatience and feeling like I want to get this done, I want to get it out there, and the battle between those feelings and I can't pull the cake out early because then it's not going to be a cake Like it's going to? Be a mess. Like I need to wait till it's perfect and yeah.

Speaker 4: 3:19

And that's what I was trying to get at is kind of, because I think I take one end of that and then you're in this. I don't mean this in any bad way, but you've taken the opposite end where your cycle is like seven days, my production cycle is like ridiculous. And you know where is the balance? And part of the reason my production cycle is ridiculous is because I don't think I. You know, sometimes you give yourself too much freedom and then it's hard to really dial in and you know, get the thing done.

Speaker 3: 3:50

Well, I think your content too, for some of those more in-depth videos, they have more depth, there's more meaning, there's more research. That's needed. You know, I, some of my stuff, is just a tutorial on how to use storylines in Final Cut, like it's pretty cut and dry and there's not a lot of room to be and not that you're this way but to be precious or to be, concerned about it being perfect or sort of, like you know, having it just right. I did my due diligence.

Speaker 3: 4:19

I quality checked it all that stuff. It's much quicker, more consumable. The actual structure of the video is relatively repeatable as far as introducing it showing what it is, picture-in-picture screen recording. Hey, everyone, thanks for watching Until next time keep chopping that broccoli, you know, and then, out versus.

Speaker 4: 4:40

And especially seeing Versus like the film convert video.

Speaker 3: 4:43

That was 33 minutes long and took me, you know five weeks to yeah, five weeks or whatever After we shot it.

Speaker 4: 4:48

Yeah, yeah, after we shot it.

Speaker 3: 4:51

And you know laboring a little bit more over the story beats or like could I make this more dramatic, but still, though, to your point, feeling gotta get this out.

Speaker 1: 5:01

I gotta go.

Speaker 3: 5:02

Because now this is like holding up the.

Speaker 4: 5:06

And part of that was the brand commitment that you had on the back end. But I definitely this is, you know, this is the great question how much time do you spend on something? How much time do you spend on a piece? When you're working on a piece of work?

Speaker 3: 5:24

I think that I just like using the term work because I think it is, I think of it as work in like a beautiful way, but yeah, you wanna know what one of the biggest factors is for me in my, I think, my feelings of urgency with my release cycle and getting stuff out there. I feel like I finally realized that YouTube and creating these videos is like kind of the perfect fit for me. Yeah. Like I feel like everything in my life was leading up to doing this, but I'm 44.

Speaker 3: 5:53

And although I have a lot of life left, there's part of you that, when you start getting on the other side of 35, and you have kids and you are behind on some of your financial goals and you don't feel like you're quite where you need to be, you start feeling, even if it's self-imposed, like this pressure to catch up. And so a lot for me is, you know, trying to figure out how to, how to get myself leveled up with what my the design is of my life. I want to travel. I want to do this, I want to do that Like.

Speaker 3: 6:26

I see a clear vision. I want to have a nicer house. I don't need a mansion, but a house that's just like is not issues with the backyard and like a retaining wall that's falling over like all this stuff. And you let all that stuff kind of put pressure on you and you sit there and you go. I am doing the thing that's going to get me there. So if I increase volume, turn out, you know all that stuff.

Speaker 4: 6:47

Every video you put out is a chip in that.

Speaker 3: 6:50

It's one step closer to those results. But on the flip side, sometimes you pull back and you sit there and go. But if I'm not making sure the quality is good, if I am just turning and burning these things and not paying attention to what my audience is reacting to, you know, just getting a video out to get a video out, are you actually going slower? Than if you you know, released videos less frequently, ten years yeah.

Speaker 3: 7:20

You know in that video, because of something about it, that you waited for the cake to bake and you had. You know that video is going to do better because people are going to feel that they're going to sense that attention to detail or whatever it is that gives it that different feeling than okay, another tutorial, let's get this video out, let's go, let's go, let's go.

Speaker 4: 7:43

I want like. So here's an interesting thought and we're going to come, we're going to tie this together at some point, but I had this the other day, I figured out. So whenever I, you know, whenever I feel like I'm in that box of just like, oh man, like I, I'm not. So I haven't quite mastered the art of being able to just be.

Speaker 1: 8:12

And I'm trying. It's hard.

Speaker 4: 8:14

Yeah, I, you know I I try to do these things and like I try to have an understanding and I try to catch myself when I'm not, when I'm reacting or how I'm reacting or how I'm looking at something. But you know you're doing, you're working on some piece of copy for a client or something, or you know you're editing something and you're just sitting here and you're like this is life and it's like no, this is just right now and I but I get this feeling of like I'm in a box and you get caught up a little bit. You know I'm the first person to admit I get caught up in these, in like a wanting things or like oh I need, you know.

Speaker 4: 8:57

Like you said, the house, you know you're looking at how oh man, I love that house, or like are you see something and you know some? A feeling of jealousy creeps in. You see somebody who's doing better. You know your first thought when you see somebody who's like similar and they're doing better at least in my case it's not as usually my second thought is I get to eventually like I don't want to be that person, because if I have that person's life, then I have that person's life in its entirety.

Speaker 4: 9:25

I like my life especially, you know the kind of world that we're building and you know doing the podcast and you know working and building the just the things in my life. I love that, I love that and you know there's so much pride that I have in that. But you see somebody and that momentary reaction, that first reaction, at least for me, is like oh, look at how and it's super. And that's such a toxic result of just like this capitalist, like we have this vision and that's better, more, greater, whatever.

Speaker 3: 9:58

Easy or easy.

Speaker 4: 9:59

Yeah, everything's got to be. I just want things to be easier. And you know how you know how my obsession with like just everything's got to be optimal, everything's got to be at the easiest and yeah, like, oh, I can remove this layer of stress if I spend $200 here Exactly, and you know that's stupid.

Speaker 3: 10:18

It's weird how life has become that. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: 10:22

And I try to fight back and you know, eventually I hope I can get to the point where I'm able to kind of step out of that self-image and just again, just be, and I think the work is better.

Speaker 4: 10:32

When you can do that, I think every aspect of your life improves a little bit. But you know, I'll get caught up in that and I'll see oh man, I wish I was making more, I wish I had a nicer house, I wish this or that, and the first thing I tend to do it's not like I go and I sit down and I'm like okay, I'm working on this script, I'm working on this story, I've got this photo project.

Speaker 4: 10:58

It's not like I go dive into that, you know these things that probably actually will long-term move the needle, but I go for the easy fix. You know what? I do.

Speaker 4: 11:09

I check YouTube analytics and you know it's something stupid like that. And I go check that and I'm like like because for some reason, when they lay it out and they know this, they understand this psychologically. They're doing this on purpose, but for some reason, when they lay it out, it's just such a clear there's no ceiling to it. You're like hmm, this could, and I wonder like do you think you fall for that a little?

Speaker 3: 11:32

bit. No, I don't look at that stuff at all.

Speaker 4: 11:35

But do you not in that way, but like, do you see, like.

Speaker 4: 11:38

I almost think like YouTube represents this thing and they've built this incentive structure, which I don't necessarily agree with because I think it is dangerous. I think the move is probably to go into. Okay, I need to just like I feel like I can't, you know, I feel like I wish I had this, I wish I had that. Then channel that, understand that that's probably not a good feeling to have. And you know, as long as you can kind of do the self, you know the self-farm, as long as you can kind of look at how that's affecting you, you can do the work there. Oh shit, the angle's gone, the angle's gone, that's fine. As long as you can do that work, the self-reflection, and move.

Speaker 2: 12:29

Keep that in, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Hey, I'm not driving these things at all these things.

Speaker 4: 12:36

But as long as you can do that self-reflection, I think it's probably better than to channel that energy into working on that story you're writing, or that screenplay, or that film that you're working on, or even just an art project or a painting or whatever your thing is. I guess we have a broad audience, but that photo project, whatever that is, it's probably better to channel into that, because if you've chosen to commit yourself to this thing, this form of work, then that's going to give you better. But for some reason, because of the way that Incident Structure works or the way they lay it out, youtube feels like the way to. Oh man, this is the thing that has no limits. You can see somebody who's making $100,000 or $1 million a year on YouTube, on the YouTube lottery.

Speaker 3: 13:27

Yeah, and you're like I could win that, and it's like it is literally I'm just pulling more video away from that.

Speaker 4: 13:31

It's exactly what my uncles will do when they go into the 7-11 in the morning and they buy the lottery, the scratch off ticket, and it's the same mindset. And, instead of being like man, I can learn a new skill and get a better job, or I can learn a new skill and completely change the trajectory of my working life or whatever.

Speaker 3: 13:52

Yeah, there's no hope for that. I just need to win the lottery so I can check out of the system.

Speaker 4: 13:57

And so we look at YouTube and I'm wondering if 100% this is asking you to do some mildly serious self-reflection.

Speaker 3: 14:05

But oh no.

Speaker 4: 14:06

I'm all about that.

Speaker 3: 14:07

Yeah, that's why it's studio sessions.

Speaker 4: 14:09

No, but do you think that is a reason why you've kind of caught in that? I don't think you're caught in it. You're literally doing the thing, but it's easier in a way than going and editing the Ted Snow documentary or then doing Well and because I I think. And that's a good. I didn't mean to tie that in, but it just struck.

Speaker 3: 14:31

And I think my brain sees the Ted Snow documentary and and gives you context of what that is.

Speaker 3: 14:36

So several years ago Alex and I were out doing street photography in South Omaha and this is sort of like me getting to the next level of embracing photography as a way to express myself and be connected creatively and artistically and all that. And we ran into a gentleman who was coming out of the bank and he saw us with cameras and he struck up a conversation and then after that my wheels started turning because back then I was still sort of a toe into video production as a business but I wanted to do more documentary style branded content with big brands and I thought to myself maybe filming a documentary about this gentleman who is in his early 60s and is still chasing the dream of being a published touring, not rock star like arenas, but like someone who's living the dream as a musician. And we had a conversation, you and I, about how that would work and who would have what role, and we got a little team together you, me, cody and Ian and we shot maybe a week's worth of footage following him to different gigs and in his home and interviewing him and questions, and we have like five terabytes of footage that we're sitting on. That I'm sitting on and as my connection to video production as a business waned and YouTube became more and more my revenue stream, I did get sucked into what you're talking about, where I sit there and go.

Speaker 3: 16:06

I can literally spawn money by doing something I love to do by making a video, by doing the live stream, by teaching somebody final cut, by vlogging about this or that and the more I do that, the more my subscriber base grows, which then informs revenue with like affiliate links and all that kind of stuff helps me get larger fees for sponsorships. You know more channel members, all that stuff Like you just see everything growing. Sometimes you feel like it's growing exponentially, not just incrementally, and you sit there and feel like you hold the power to. It's like. It's like you know the lottery numbers.

Speaker 4: 16:54

Yeah, just have to like plug it in yeah, and you'll, and you'll like, get the. Especially once you can kind of you know this video is gonna do this.

Speaker 3: 17:02

Yeah, and you see, you get that like yeah, affirmation that you see your peers who are making similar content, you know, gain 2000 subscribers a month or get brand deals, because we're all in a discord together and talk about, you know, all that stuff that's going on and it just becomes a powerful magnet Because you finally feel like, first of all, you're not waiting for permission to work. Yeah, which is what the production company was. We have a project. I put a proposal together. You tell me if I get to work and then you give me revisions on that.

Speaker 3: 17:38

Yeah, but then you also Know that when you choose to work, whether it's making a video I'm monetized on medium as well writing an article like you know that it's gonna make money versus Ted Snow, which is it could, but like what's the real endgame for that if you want to be sort of pessimistic and realistic with it, you might finish it and get into some film festivals. You might get, you know, some good feedback if you post it to your channel. You know, and obviously there's a big upside there. You know it could get into Sundance if you put it together. You know, in a way, are the odds you know great that that's gonna happen? No, but it could. You could get nominated for an Academy Award for a short documentary.

Speaker 4: 18:25

That's not or it's not. You know even smaller scale, just somebody yeah could see it. Somebody could see it. I love that go do that again. Here's some money, absolutely. Here's $10,000. Yeah here's $25,000,. You know, very reasonable right now.

Speaker 3: 18:40

But yeah, yeah, and I, you know, of all the things that I've done for commercial clients for production, whether it was the toy maker documentary, whether it was the general dodge documentary not one of them Came from someone seeing something that I or we made. Nothing, nobody. Some of the work that I've done commercially as like a crew person, yeah, has come from my YouTube channel, but nobody has commissioned me.

Speaker 3: 19:11

Yeah, to make something for them, whether it's a corporate client or, you know, a Wealthy person who wants a legacy film of their life or whatever. Nothing from any of that so all of that stuff Comes at you and it has you look at like what things can I make that? Give me the best chance of achieving, of realizing the life that I have designed for myself.

Speaker 3: 19:35

Yeah, and it's not. I Think I'm very modest. I'm not wanting, you know, a palatial home. I don't want, like a collection of cars. I want a newer house that has less maintenance. I want to be able to have like a housekeeper come by once a week some people are watching this.

Speaker 4: 19:54

Yeah, you entitled pieces of shit. You guys are talking into these. Yeah, you know the hundred dollar microphones. You fucking yeah.

Speaker 3: 20:02

Yeah, like my garage doesn't have any drywall or insulation. My bathroom is Mmm, unpleasant, entirely like. Yeah, I wish I had 15 $20,000 to remodel it and I'm not skilled enough to do it myself. We have a. I mean I bought my car in 2005. I mean I have a newer Ford truck, but our car is 210,000 miles rusting and we're still limping along with it. We know retirement savings aren't anywhere near it's a modest.

Speaker 3: 20:31

It's a modest middle-class yeah but I see you know again, I don't want it like a vacation home in Santa Barbara, but I would like you know, to be able to, you know, take my family and travel the US and. America, maybe every once in a while an international trip. You know, own a couple nice things that can ice some nice cameras.

Speaker 4: 20:50

You know this is that great scene and it's a wonderful life.

Speaker 1: 20:53

Yeah, like a couple trips to New.

Speaker 4: 20:54

York, nice, to go take it all away and you're like everything I love you.

Speaker 3: 20:59

What are the the new post that? Is falling off all that stuff and I do think I I take that art and I look at that and I go. You know it reminds me of Andy from the office has a great line where he's like I something, the effect of I wish someone or I wish you knew that when you Were in the good old days, that you were in the good old days. He says it much more meaningful than that.

Speaker 3: 21:21

Yeah and so I think you know back to another thing you said earlier, I do, I do have to like put my brain. Take it out of mode and go.

Speaker 3: 21:32

You could achieve these things. You could achieve the design that you have for your life and you could look back on this moment when you were struggling with YouTube Money wasn't, you know, was was a bit more of a stress point in your life. Whatever you had at your old house and you could sit there and say, man, it was so much as you're back then, even though it was a struggle, there was something to it, there was a sense of being alive. The struggle, the, the, the volatility of it, the unknown, what it's interesting.

Speaker 4: 22:01

It's an interesting time to what we talked about last week. We talked about like the, like the hunter Thompson situation, or just the artist situation of becoming. You know, the work changes once you reach a certain level of status. What you just said, though, like I wish the. I wish I knew in the good old days that yeah and that's what I, that is my when I talk about, and just being yes that's exactly what I mean is I think the good old days are.

Speaker 4: 22:32

You know, we planted our garden this year and when we're planting that garden, I you know, I want to think. I don't want to be thinking about like, oh man, this is gonna be great. Yeah, even even like oh man, this is so many tomatoes are gonna be.

Speaker 4: 22:50

You know, I'm just like I want to enjoy this, the soil, and like when I'm writing it's and it's really difficult, I don't. But I don't want to be like man, this is gonna be so good when it's done. I just want to be in the scene, yeah, and I think you know Not to tie this back in there like wrap it all up in the photography bow. But that's what's great about photography is when you're out shooting, you're just shooting, you just. I think that's part of why.

Speaker 3: 23:12

I've grown To love it so, and you can't.

Speaker 4: 23:14

I mean you can, but it's harder to think Down the road and that's that's a dangerous thing, and but it's it's hard to even identify it as dangerous because it's so commonplace. Yeah, just to be somewhere else, to be ahead in your thinking, and I think the most important thing of creating great work is Is to just be in the in the moment. And it's interesting because I have the same trouble where, you know, I wish this was better, I wish this was a little smoother and I, you know, I fight it at every chance I get and it's the hardest thing in the world because it is the most culturally. Yeah, you know, it's everywhere.

Speaker 3: 23:53

I know, you know, it's just, it's just. I think our lives are going to be that Constant back and forth between these fleeting moments of being yeah. Being in a moment, being in a pure moment, a truthful moment, whatever you want to.

Speaker 4: 24:05

That's what I love about this is like we can just be in the Conversation. I'm not thinking right, right now.

Speaker 3: 24:11

I'm not. I'm. You're escaping from yeah.

Speaker 4: 24:12

We're playing with ideas and we're throwing stuff together, and then that alarm will go off.

Speaker 3: 24:16

I'm like shit, we got to wrap this up right and then, yeah, you know it's yeah, the system comes back right like, like. Oh, we want these to be 55 minutes.

Speaker 4: 24:23

Yeah these containers Start piling but we just get lost in the conversation and hopefully that that shows through. Yeah, people are listening like I think that's part of the reason why we enjoy podcasts is because you can kind of just get lost in the but I think especially this podcast, because we have an overarching thing that we're talking about and but we're not rigid.

Speaker 3: 24:45

Yeah, you know we're trying to let it, let it happen. Yeah, which mirrors. When I was coming over here, yeah, I had time to kill because you had a couple things that you need to do before we started and I had this impulse. I'm like this car dealership is over here that has these old cars. I've got four shots left on my Nikon point-and-shoot. I want to finish this role and all that and I'm literally like getting right to the point where, if you don't hit the Brakes and hit your turn signal like you're just gonna keep going.

Speaker 3: 25:10

Yeah, I'm like just do it, so I turn park and Like pop off four or five shots where, like I don't know, I go up to the first one I'm looking through the finer. I'm like, yeah, this looks great. The clouds are all pop. Yeah sure it's harsh light, but whatever, do it. Then I find another one.

Speaker 1: 25:25

Yes, this is one is here is now in the viewfinder.

Speaker 3: 25:30

Yeah it's gonna be in the photo, another one. Then I'm like, okay, well, I shot all the cars and then I turn around and this guy is coming down, this character on a BMX bike, coming down the sidewalk, and there's these signs and I just quickly frame up. I saw my mind and I wait for him to come right into the middle of frame. Bam, I'm like, it's like like the universe is like like like Rewarding you for listening for just being in the.

Speaker 4: 25:54

Yeah, like listening to your impulse.

Speaker 3: 25:56

Yeah, and then, and then, and then there was a last shot of this gas station that I've never even noticed over here, in this part of council bluffs and the clouds are all puffy and there's somebody pumping gas and there's a white cock. I'm, you know, and it's not like this is you know, I could show this photograph to people after find like, yeah, cool gas station, but for me it was. I see the photo in my head and now it's actually right here in the viewfinder.

Speaker 4: 26:19

And then when I get the photo, it'll be there. Your thought is not to make some great photo, your thought is just to be I see, I Capture and then, you know, deal with it later and that's what the photo is mostly when I look at them.

Speaker 3: 26:32

That's what I think about I go. I remember being in the flow. I remember not thinking about yeah how close am I to the design of my life or? Yeah. Youtube video out or you know all that stuff. You're just and that happens to me when I go on like a like a trip or vacation with my kids, like I can really plug from. You know, like I literally unplug from thinking about YouTube.

Speaker 4: 26:57

Well, you're such a good the metaphor from a couple of episodes ago where you were just let things happen, yes you just kind of you didn't get to do what you wanted to do, but you just kind of let things unfold and I turned out, turned out brilliantly. Yeah, surrendering. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 27:11

I think that's. It's just such an important thing to it to really, you know, just to take stock every once in a while and be like man yeah, everything's great and I think, and you know it's. I think to her just Really quick. Like you know, you talk about man. I wish I had this, I wish I had that and I'm always like I wish I had this, but then it's like life is pretty good, especially for us.

Speaker 3: 27:37

We have no. Yes, it's who you've got. You know, yeah house and you know we have.

Speaker 4: 27:44

No, we have no room to complain and I think it's that's important to remember like you have no expectation and you're just thankful for every, because it's all about the metaphor, the metaphorical framework you apply to it. Because, if you, you could look at it as like, oh man, my house is doing this or this, but then you could also look at it like man, I've got space for my kids to grow up. I've got food in the fridge.

Speaker 4: 28:06

I've got this beautiful space downstairs to shoot my stuff. You know, I've got this beautiful equipment, whatever, and it completely recontextualizes the whole thing. And then it's so easy for us to get caught up in this almost this lie of oh, but I a million dollars a year, like I'm big yeah, yeah, yeah, it's nice, and then I'll be free.

Speaker 3: 28:27

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 28:28

And I think that's dangerous, though, because, just first of all, the work is better when it's just pure. And. I think life is better when it's just that there's that purity to it too. That's why kids are so happy, I know, before you expose them to all the toxic garbage out there.

Speaker 3: 28:41

It's just that I've had this conversation already with my seven year old where I'm like Dot. You don't know how good you have it. Yeah, yeah, like you, just I know you want to be an adult and you want to be able to feel like you can do whatever you want when you want. I know you're contained right now, but you don't want to be thinking about or dealing with the things that we deal with as adults.

Speaker 4: 29:02

I mean, and I think even that, like I used to hear that from my parents, I mean I, you know, and I agree with that, but I think also, we got to you know, you approach it from the, from the idea of how can we be more like them, yeah, how can we put ourselves in their shoes and see the world through there, and it's easy to be like, yeah, but there's bills and there's this, and part of that is this weird projection of our ego and our social status. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 29:29

Complaining about things that we know in our back of our head are good. But we're kind of bragging and complaining at the same time and I think being aware of that is important, because then you can separate yourself and just just be just.

Speaker 3: 29:43

And I think me pulling off the take those photos is connected to what it was like as a kid to wake up in the morning and run out of the house and go play baseball, basketball, explore.

Speaker 4: 29:52

I was. It's funny. I was thinking about that the other day.

Speaker 3: 29:54

Just and that's what it is Like you're not on your friend's door.

Speaker 4: 29:57

hey can tell him to come out and play and you just go. That's what photography, that's what.

Speaker 3: 30:01

That is literally exactly what it is, and I, it is a, it is my adult activity that lets me feel like I'm a kid on my street, going to play, you know, going swimming or going to play baseball or basketball or whatever that's it.

Speaker 3: 30:18

I mean, I would go, I would get this feeling at the end of the week the last couple of years and I'd be like I just gotta like go out to some random small town in Iowa and just go take pictures and even though it was, you know, I was on my own. I felt like I was going out to play and you know, having community, of course, especially in Omaha, whether it's you or Cody, ian, michael Rabin, you know these different people, a DJ that I feel like I can call, like it's an amazing thing to feel like I can call Like four to five people and go do you want to grab coffee? Do you want to go see Oppenheimer? Do you want to go play golf? Do you want?

Speaker 4: 30:56

to you just dated this podcast. Yeah, damn it.

Speaker 3: 30:59

Like all the viewers just tuned out because they're listening to it three years from yeah. Oppenheimer, that ancient movie.

Speaker 1: 31:06

That ancient poorly.

Speaker 3: 31:07

No one's got a new one coming out Geez which, by the way, I was marveling at a feature at for Oppenheimer, where they were shooting in large format and. Kodak, there was no black and white 70 millimeter film. Yeah. It didn't exist, so Kodak just made it yeah.

Speaker 4: 31:29

Well, there's not go down that. We're not going to go down that rabbit hole.

Speaker 4: 31:31

But there's an argument that Nolan's productions have. Say what you want about anything about him, but there is an argument that he is the reason that film is still around. Yeah, because he's an insider at that level that made a financial Unfortunate. Everything's driven by financial incentives. He created an incentive to keep it around. So you gotta be anybody who shoots film gotta be thankful for that. So I love the childlike thing and I want to bring it in before we wrap to a more practical thing. So that childlike notion and we talked about that it's a wonderful life scene and I'm probably going to start the pod with this, with that clip, cause that's I mean, I'm taught and this is probably why I saw that we used to watch that every year. So I've seen that movie. Yeah, I've seen it Every year of my life since I was seven.

Speaker 3: 32:25

I look forward to watching it at the end of the year because to me it's a refresher on what's really important. It's corny as it is.

Speaker 4: 32:30

That scene is burned into my head of couple trips to New York, da da da, couple, nice cigars, some dresses for your wife. And that's my eternal struggle, I think, is that scene. This generation is different, cause it used to be. Your generation is you're a sellout if you, it's nirvana, it's grunge, it's you're a sellout if you join the man. And our generation is like get your bag, take it or get your money. And I'm just, I'm like just torn in between those two ideologies.

Speaker 3: 33:09

Well, and it's a wonderful life spawned of entire subgenre of movies, and there aren't a lot of them, but it's like the glimpse movie. You get a glimpse of what your life would be Really such a good metaphor for this whole conversation, so a nice double feature, for it's a wonderful life is, I think, 80s or early 90s movie called Mr Destiny with James Belushi.

Speaker 4: 33:30

Gotcha yeah.

Speaker 3: 33:31

He is married to the character played by Linda Hamilton, lives in a nice little modest house and but laments that he didn't have a career in baseball. He missed the game, winning pitch instead of hitting it, and he wonders what would my life be like had I hit that pitch? And so Michael Cain, Christopher Nolan, full circle, gives him a glimpse of this is what your life would be like had you hit that pitch. And obviously, off the bat, pun intended, it looks great big house mansion. He's married to a different woman, played by Renee Russo, who was like his big crush as a kid.

Speaker 3: 34:08

All that stuff and movies of course wrap all these feelings that we're talking about into a pretty little bow and it's ultimately the life that he had. That was the best life. Family man with Nicholas Cage and other movies.

Speaker 4: 34:22

It fits into that idea of you can look at somebody and the first feelings that jealousy, and you have to look and be like, do I really? And something I'm sure for some people out there there's never anything that applies to all people. For some people, I'm sure, the answer is yes, of course I will take everything about their life. But for most people I would argue that it's probably the answer is probably I like my life, I like some aspects. But so, just tying this together to make it a little bit more tangible, a little more practical, we wanted to talk about controlling the stack, things like that. So we've talked about this idea of you want these things and there's this struggle between this want and then just being letting things happen. But we discussed Bill Cunningham a little bit earlier, before the episode started, and Bill Cunningham there's the quote that I was telling you about, where he basically says he's like don't take the money, kid. He's like as soon as you take the money, they control you.

Speaker 4: 35:25

So and I think one thing that we are constantly kind of trying to figure out and this has been a constant conversation between us is okay. Well, money is a necessity in our society. We live in America in the 21st century and you can't just you can survive on a little amount of money, but you do need money, especially if you have family. There's stupid things about standard of living that we enjoy and stuff like that, and you can hate it, but it's like, if I'm being honest, I don't want to give up. No, and that's an entitled position, sure, but it's so. I want to kind of switch this into developing a more practical framework, or at least our thoughts around that. And we talked about controlling the stack, which is how do you or what? I guess let's keep it more of a philosophical. I don't want to give like direct points because I don't think we've quite figured out how to do this shit but there's this idea of there's a certain amount, that's just enough.

Speaker 4: 36:29

And it's almost like the Patagonia model of business, where it's like we're not trying to be the biggest company in the world, we're not trying, we're just trying to make a really good product, we're trying to take care of our people and we're trying to have an impact after, for future generations, and I think that's what you could ask for Anybody who creates work for a living. That's a great if you could look back on your life and be like man.

Speaker 4: 36:54

I lived a very comfortable life, but I did never lost touch the work, never lost touch, never lost the humanity and I raised family, raised whatever appreciated, just was able to live in the moment my whole life. I think that'd be a very yeah, that's something a lot of people would probably want. So, controlling the stack, what does that mean to you? And then we can maybe jump off from there.

Speaker 3: 37:24

For me it really means having total ownership over sort of the life cycle of a piece of content, something that you make intellectual property, that you own the production aspects of it, you own the distribution aspects and the exhibition aspects that you are not necessarily You're vertically integrated.

Speaker 3: 37:45

You could argue. Being a YouTuber, you're at risk because if they demonetize you or something happens or whatever, your entire body of work is inaccessible, it's no longer earning any revenue whatever. So they technically own the exhibition of your work and you're at the mercy of the ad rates that they charge and all that stuff for that revenue. So the ideal situation is you make a piece of content or develop intellectual property. You have an audience to distribute it to and mechanisms to do that, whether it's a website or some kind of paywall to view your video or whatever it is that you made.

Speaker 3: 38:24

You could argue that there's little nuances in there of well, you don't really own the stack because that's like through this web, whatever. But for the most part, if you have that audience and they can purchase whatever it is that you've created, you keep 100% of the money, other than the expenses related to making it, having a website or I don't know. Whatever the expenses are production expenses, et cetera.

Speaker 4: 38:46

There's no funneling happening with your distribution. There's no funneling happening with your yeah, and you can sit there and go.

Speaker 3: 38:53

I'm not waiting for the studios to tell me whether or not this big giant movie made a profit and that my 2% of net is gonna yield me a $10 million payday. Like they're gonna come up with ways to manipulate that information to make it look like it didn't make any money. And this is part of the greater conversation of the WGA strike, sag, after all that stuff and what they're trying to do to have more ownership of the stack, because right now they all feel like it's completely lopsided and with the advent of streaming, that is especially owning the stack with like Netflix and the different streamers.

Speaker 3: 39:30

Well, there's no royalties anymore, or there's no, well, and they've manipulated what the definition of a television show is, and so the contracts were signed when streaming was sort of we hadn't really figured it out, but now it's really established and the actors and the writers want more of a piece of that. But of course the streamers don't wanna give it up. The studios don't wanna give it up. They own the news organizations, the newspapers, the some of the streaming services that they've created in response to things like Netflix, et cetera. So it's a lot, but I will say that for me, part of owning the stack is not needing permission to work and put my work in front of an audience, and the fact that I can sit there and go.

Speaker 3: 40:14

I have all the production tools necessary to create a piece of content.

Speaker 3: 40:19

I can distribute that content to my audience in a number of different ways and exhibit that content on YouTube or whatever, and it can translate into revenue that I feel like I have a good amount of ownership over.

Speaker 3: 40:39

Forgive me if I'm not sort of like nailing the exact meaning of exhibition and distribution and all that stuff, but just in a big picture, look at it. That's what I'm talking about, and this comes out of having tried to break into Hollywood as a screenwriter and writing stuff for free from companies that are making millions of dollars a year off of their intellectual property that they've developed with other screenwriters. It's just a given that you're gonna write for years for free until you finally get that script that sells and then you'll be able to start making money. But then you've gotta sell more stuff to get your quote up and all this stuff. And I just didn't like feeling like there were these like real and I don't know if that's me being whiny and entitled that I didn't like that. There were gatekeepers that said, hey, if your stuff's not up to snuff or a quality or commercial enough or whatever it is that we care about, we're just gonna say no in the work that you're doing.

Speaker 4: 41:32

It isn't gonna get in front of anybody. The problem when you introduce those people there's conflict of interest, there's financial incentives to do certain things, there's just orthodoxies that are kind of built into hierarchical structures that it's hard to really innovate or do anything different than what's been proven, especially now we live in an age of computer modeling where everything's this is the way to do it.

Speaker 3: 42:01

Yeah, they can plug a script into a model and say whether or not it's gonna have ROI or what the big concerns are budget-wise, this or that. So there's like a lot of fear there like investing all this money into a movie. I mean, look at Indiana Jones dating or podcast again. But the new Indiana Jones movie needed to make international.

Speaker 4: 42:23

You mean that Indiana Jones movie that came out in 2023, right, that's the one.

Speaker 3: 42:27

It needs to make $300 million just to break even. Like it's ridiculous. And that's a known franchise with a A-list star, all that stuff that seems like a sure thing and it's performing not as hoped. So the excitement from me, someone that felt like I had ideas but couldn't make them because of production, a camera and all that stuff. The stuff's expensive, but now I mean, we're recording this with flip cameras.

Speaker 4: 42:59

Anything goes.

Speaker 3: 43:00

Anything goes and you can really make something. I mean the investment that we've made beyond our time to create this is relatively low.

Speaker 4: 43:09

Relatively low, for sure.

Speaker 3: 43:11

For what could have the potential of building an audience, generating revenue, all of that stuff, and then also just being personally fulfilling to have these conversations that we have anyway and turning them into a piece of content. So that's what, to wrap everything up. That's really what YouTube specifically has done for me is it's really empowered me to take what I see in my mind, whether it's a video, photography, whatever and then bring it in front of an audience to try to earn revenue and earn a full-time living, waking up doing exactly what I wanna do every day. I sat there and got a membership video done today and did a live stream and I'm on cloud nine when it's done because I'm sitting there going.

Speaker 3: 43:59

You know, I made something and got it out there and connected with my audience and my community. I brought my buddy Dylan on to my live stream and we talked about him in his three-year anniversary with YouTube, all that stuff, and it's just. I just love it.

Speaker 3: 44:14

I have had jobs. I worked at a factory in high school. I worked in a cubicle before I went to grad school and they literally drained my soul and all I could think about was what can I do to earn a living doing what I love to do every day? You used to think I've gotta win the lottery. I have to sell a screenplay because it's gonna sell for $250,000 and I'll finally have some breathing room to just like focus on making what I wanna make, not working at the Apple Store in Pasadena to try to fill in the gaps between concert video content.

Speaker 3: 44:47

Editing that I was doing that was not moving me forward other than the revenue that allowed me to keep trying to write screenplays. It wasn't getting me closer to being a screenwriter in a very like direct way. Whereas, just to bring this back, if I sit down and make a video, here's the thing. You are on the cusp. Alex is on the cusp of getting monetized on his YouTube channel. He is at 1300.

Speaker 4: 45:10

I don't know if I want it he is at 1300, 66 public watch hours or, sorry, 1400, 66 public watch hours 30, we're way off 3,900, 3,900, 66 public watch hours which puts in 34 public watch hours, matt just dating this podcast and every single order there.

Speaker 3: 45:33

From getting monetized and going back to what you talked about earlier, like you talked about going to the analytics and all that stuff. I believe very curious for you, knowing what we've talked about, with your personality and some of the things that you struggle with what that switch is gonna do once you sit there and say to yourself if I make this video, it will make money. It's not, if I make this video, it'll get me closer to monetize anymore. Now it's actual money that goes in your bank account and I think part of it is like.

Speaker 4: 46:02

I mean, part of it is I've already thought that question I'm like, well, this is great, like I can take clips from the podcast that can be my, that'll be up there, yeah, because I mean, yeah, I just, I know myself and I'm like heroin addict.

Speaker 2: 46:19

I'm like oh, I mean oh well.

Speaker 4: 46:21

And I also know that as a human, I tend to default to the easiest option and you can fight back against it, but you're still, you have that default and I have things that I wanna do that don't involve with the channel. I mean, I think like my channel is definitely more of a personal thing than and I'm not trying to be like your channel's not personal. It's just like your channel has more commercial viability 100%. While it's also completely personal, but you just happen to like have an interest that is more commercially viable.

Speaker 3: 47:02

There are definitely times where I am motivated to make a video, even though, no matter what every video I make, I want to make it. The motivation, or the larger component of the motivation, is more commercial. It is what's this gonna do for my ad revenue, subscribers, et cetera.

Speaker 4: 47:18

Like I'm happily going to teach this, that's what I'm trying to figure out, cause I like, like, look, I'm not, you know, I don't know if I'm gonna make a video where it's like oh, this is like I don't the most, but I would love to be able to. Just, you know every three months. We put out a video that's heavily commercially viable because it's just gonna it's gonna help me control the stack better.

Speaker 4: 47:42

Like you know, if I'm making enough with revenue and I'm bringing, that's bringing in eyes. The way I look at YouTube is you have to do videos that bring in eyes. Then you have to do videos like convert to the, to the vertical integration of your products or whatever Products is a dirty word, but you know it's literally like you said. It's the content that you're putting out and I think the easiest way to to look at it is through a musician. And they put out an album and I, at least in my head, and I think there's tons of different ways to do it. You just have to find the model that you relate to the most and you you think fits best with your workflow. And for me that's the model of the musician. I mean, we talked about that a couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 4: 48:30

But you know, you put out an album and then you go away and you may release a single here and there, just something new. You're trying something exciting, but you're kind of in the background and you're working and you're developing a new sound or you're trying to do something, and then you know, a year goes by, you put out a new album, a couple more singles. You do like a tour, like you know you can do, especially now you can do podcasts, just kind of journal what's in your what 55. That was shocking. But you know journal what your thoughts are and your as time goes.

Speaker 3: 49:07

But I think and are we are, we, though, romanticizing that life of the musician, because my thought about a musician that either has a successful album or a song is the machinery behind them, the label, the managers, all that they start. You gotta go on tour, you gotta really.

Speaker 4: 49:25

I should preface with like the independent musician and the musician that owns the studio that owns this.

Speaker 4: 49:31

And one thing I wanna touch on. Before we do our little rap, I mean, I guess we don't need to do a rap. We're opening with you. It's a wonderful life. One thing I do wanna touch on, though, is I wanna ask you this Do when you control the stack. I Personally think that there's a limit, like you're not gonna be the biggest artist in the world and control the stack. There are weird little exceptions, like we talked about. You know certain podcasts and things like that that have, if they control the stack and they've managed to become the biggest thing in the world, you way bigger than any legacy thing could, yeah, could produce, but when you control the stack, for that that's a lottery type of thing. Yeah, in a lot of ways, when you, if you want to control the stack, I do think there it for the most For the general population there's probably some sacrifices that after you made. Would you agree with that, or do you?

Speaker 3: 50:26

And then there's also the idea of create, you know, building your own jail cell right, which the first thing that I thought of when you said that was you know, we know we've mentioned mr Beast. On the channel, he has, like the most YouTube subscribers of anyone on the planet something like 150 million subscribers, whatever it's up to now, 120 million, whatever it is. He is working on a deal with a streamer to create a show that will go on something like Netflix, and In an interview he had with Colin and Samir, he specifically says there are people on those platforms that don't watch YouTube and if I make a show and it goes on that platform and they like my show, then they might come to YouTube and not only watch YouTube and you know he's a big, he loves YouTube, just in general but then they might come and subscribe to my channel. So I can literally scour the earth for every corner, every corner of the world to cultivate every subscriber possible, Because he's you know he's that, you know there's.

Speaker 3: 51:28

I'm not saying that's his goal. I'm not sure what his goal is?

Speaker 4: 51:30

it seems like he's very obsessed with growth.

Speaker 3: 51:32

Yeah he's obsessed with with subscribers and views and and, and he's highly competitive, all this stuff. So I Just I find that that that fascinating, that, even though he's someone that could check out from YouTube, create a website or some you know some exhibition he's.

Speaker 4: 51:51

He's also on YouTube at like. At the current level that he's at, it's not like it's him making videos. He is a team, I'm sure, bigger than most small companies, absolutely he's. He's got endorsement deals, I'm sure they almost can't afford it.

Speaker 3: 52:08

He's talked about now that he's so big, videos get so many views that most of these these marketing departments will tell him like One integration on your channel is three quarters of our entire budget for the year, and.

Speaker 4: 52:23

I don't want to like, I just want to. Yeah, I think what I'm trying to like. Highlight is that is the exception, not the rule. Yeah, and you know, yeah, you talk about, like mr Beese, he's massive. Joe.

Speaker 4: 52:35

Rogan is a hamburger massive, like you've got these, and I mean that's probably the closest thing to because I think it's like one other person, yeah, and then they just post and I mean I'm sure there's probably like an editor or something, sure, but it's just sit down, record the conversation and then I'm sure there's a guy that keeps track of hey, this is your guest next week.

Speaker 3: 52:54

Whatever, you know, I'm sure he's got an agent and representation, pr firm, lawyers, you know All that stuff. Like there's a team.

Speaker 4: 53:01

I think the question I'm trying to ask is like when does it get too big? You know, like and maybe that's just something you need to ask yourself when you you're building the stack. Yeah, I don't know the stack term that were of I.

Speaker 3: 53:13

Think it gets too big when, like, the machinery behind you puts so much pressure on you to do things that you don't want to do. Yeah, or to pursue things like hey Joe, we want you to come up with a restaurant chain, we want you to come up with a protein shake or, you know, you know a line of supplements.

Speaker 3: 53:32

We want you to come up with a clothing brand. We want you to. You know, and like all this machinery gets behind them, that you know. We need to come up with a spirit. You know I do. You want to kill it. You want to do vodka, and then we'll sell it in a couple years for two billion dollars, like True, yeah you know I think there's some people that might go. That all sounds great.

Speaker 3: 53:50

I love the idea of conducting that orchestra of Commerce yeah and others. The first person I think of is someone like a Kurt Cobain. Yeah who the machinery and I don't know what.

Speaker 4: 54:02

I mean, and there's even, there's even people non Cobain that have just I think, I think the problem with Cobain is he.

Speaker 3: 54:09

Kind of a t-shirt that just says non Cobain, non Cobain.

Speaker 4: 54:13

No, like the problem with Cobain, I think, is he? I Don't necessarily know if he wanted. I don't know enough about like the intricacies of the Kurt Cobain story, but it seems like there wasn't a pushback against the Quick rise of Nirvana. Yeah and I don't know how much they could have. And you know, it's clearly like he's one person in a group, so the group, you know yeah it's probably multiple people making the decision.

Speaker 4: 54:40

But I Think you almost have to set that expectation early of. You know, and I think it's different for everybody like with with me, I'm, you know, I'm setting that. I suppose. I'm like, yeah, I just really don't want anything massive, I just kind of want to operate my own little studio space but then be able, like, like you said, just be able to call people up and have experiences. But you know, I'm again I'm not looking to make millions of dollars a year. Yeah, that's all. But for some people that might be, you know, I want to control the stack.

Speaker 3: 55:12

I want to make a hundred million dollars and I want to have 50 employees and a whole thing like I enjoy, like that. That sounds good to me. I want to scale up, I want to.

Speaker 3: 55:21

I think it's all about just setting that and and if you know for yourself that that's gonna Give you panic attacks, that's too much. If you're, if your PR person is telling you you've got to go on this show, you got to do this podcast, you got to do this, and it's just like I didn't, like this isn't what I got into this for. Like I'm here to like make my stuff have a have by by. In comparison to what you think my potential earnings are, I'm okay with this being modest and minimal. Yeah, and you know, maybe a Casey Neistat thing.

Speaker 3: 55:53

I'm sure his representation that's a great one wanted to push him into other areas to monetize completely controls. I mean technically, I mean. I mean maybe not because YouTube because of these stuff and he shares ad revenue.

Speaker 4: 56:09

But you know he does well, if he wanted to go like okay, everything's on, casey Neistat, calm now. Yeah he would get a big enough conversion of people in. You know it's not gonna be this whole audience, but it's gonna be enough people to sustain if he literally said hey, ad media browser bar and add it at an event on your calendar where, once a month, you check or sign up for an email.

Speaker 3: 56:28

I mean Casey doesn't even want anybody to edit his stuff. He also sees it more like that's like having someone that's like me writing the music. Yeah and someone else playing it.

Speaker 4: 56:39

Yeah like he just does everything yeah.

Speaker 3: 56:41

I'm gonna play it a certain way. Yeah that is me expressing myself and, yes, someone else can play the notes and kind of do the cuts and do the. Thing. But that's not gonna be me and people are gonna know that it's.

Speaker 4: 56:53

it's an interesting he keeps everything Very simple.

Speaker 3: 56:57

Yeah even though that still, you know, from what we can tell from his channel and the things he's vlogged about, you know leads to Sometimes a chaotic life yeah, and sponsorship deals. You know he does a lot of speaking events.

Speaker 4: 57:10

We gotta we gotta pull out of this before we go down another other hole, but yeah, um so really quick, how do we do? I don't think we do.

Speaker 3: 57:19

What were we gonna talk about? Sharing our work?

Speaker 4: 57:22

Yeah, We'll do, we'll get that and we so what? Do you just want to give us a zero?

Speaker 3: 57:26

or like do you just want to make up this? I think we can just make up the score at this point. We're gonna keep kicking the, share our work, hand down the road. Yeah, this is our Ted snow.

Speaker 4: 57:35

Do we?

Speaker 3: 57:36

I mean what like a I don't know, I didn't give us a rating last last time was points out of three.

Speaker 4: 57:40

These are just Arbitrary at this point. It doesn't matter the first half of it about like cuz.

Speaker 3: 57:46

I'm trying to think like if there was so we talked about, you know, we, you, you brought it into owning the stack. What would? What would we put as like the the topic for the beginning? I mean, just like men.

Speaker 4: 57:58

I think it's just, first of all, it's the mentality towards Commerce to me.

Speaker 3: 58:02

It's like you know, it's not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.

Speaker 4: 58:07

It's the yeah yeah it's being versus chasing. Absolutely it's. It's being versus chasing, it's, you know, understanding the relationship with money, understanding the relationship with wants, and I Mean yeah, I will come up with some.

Speaker 3: 58:26

AI generate some sick title, right I?

Speaker 4: 58:31

So, yeah, I mean, maybe I don't know, let's give us like a I'm just gonna start making them up 1.3 out of six. There you go.

Speaker 3: 58:40

Fantastic. I think the the pad on the back that we give ourselves is. You know, of course, we sit here and talk for 30 minutes or so, leading up to when we hit record on on the cameras, and then you know, and this is what the whole thing is like we, this is what we would do, we would get together for coffee or hangout, talk about some surface stuff.

Speaker 3: 58:58

You go see this, did you do this? My camera? Hey, let me tell you a story about the camera place I went, and then it segues into a deeper conversation about Whatever and I'm interested to see, and that's, and, and, to me, like the fact that we did that is embracing, like the truth of how we work.

Speaker 3: 59:16

Yeah, conversation, you know what we are gonna have episodes where we say we are talking about sharing our work, yeah, and it's like that's what it starts off with and I think we'll have episodes where they're there and I'm interested to see how We'll get feedback right. Look at the analytics. Yeah, it might be off-putting, even like some.

Speaker 4: 59:34

I'm sure there's people that are, just I can't listen to them ramble.

Speaker 3: 59:36

Yeah yeah, in coherent if they would just thought tonnels put together three topics and nail them.

Speaker 4: 59:43

I always feel like podcast and maybe we will do that eventually. I don't, I don't know again it's but the you know we're talking. This is an episode especially. This is an episode about being there, about, yeah, just feeling the grass or you know experiencing the word and I think, I think that you know. It's kind of a perfect fit that we just rambled in a way and we just were Listening to each other.

Speaker 3: 1:00:07

We discovered it in a moment versus coming in on rails, which my biggest complaint about podcasts that come in with like a topic or a series of topics they want to touch on is, I feel like right when it's getting really good, they're like, oh, we got to get out of.

Speaker 4: 1:00:23

We got a little yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:00:24

We're like over time on that segment, like we got to wrap it up, I think we like it's, it's best when we can.

Speaker 4: 1:00:30

I Look at it like writing. You know you always want to leave something on the page, yeah, and I think that's the, that's the way you you do it. Yeah, hopefully we get better too. I mean, I I'd like to see I don't know what that episode threshold is, but I'd like to look back at a certain point and be like, oh man, yeah, look at how, yeah, how much better we were.

Speaker 3: 1:00:50

I don't know what the answer is. If it, if it is a little bit more of what? This episode was, or an episode that's sort of more deliberately centered around a topic, and yeah both of us are trying to funnel the conversation back. I don't want to. I don't want to get there.

Speaker 4: 1:01:04

I kind of want to work our way towards whatever, the yeah, yeah. I, because I think that you know we didn't create this is like we're gonna monetize this. We're gonna do all of this. Well we literally just wanted to experience the the feeling of making episodes. Yep and releasing the episodes, and I think that's.

Speaker 3: 1:01:23

It's so much of what's going on in our lives right at this moment. I think is is what's best to inform what we talk about, versus Us sitting on our own with a notebook going what are some interesting things we can talk about? The podcast, and although that could be something, if we're not coming up with something on any given day we could focus on and you and I are surely gonna come up with stuff to talk about there's just something about.

Speaker 3: 1:01:47

This doesn't feel like work, whatever is going on in our lives is bubbling up, and then we are. Taking that you know unpacking, unpacking it, you know working through it, Identifying with each other's experience, seeing where the overlap is, where the differences are, and I just think, I think that process Certainly is valuable to me. I don't want this to be masturbatory and just.

Speaker 4: 1:02:11

Hopefully valuable to know. Listening, yeah, and I mean, I think you know we take feedback, we figure we work it in, but at the same time. Yeah, it's you know this doesn't feel like we're working and that's the whole point. Once it feels like work. I think it's like that's when we need to revisit and be like oh so what episode is this?

Speaker 3: 1:02:29

five, five or six? I'd be curious for anybody in the comments to put down like hey, I've listened to the first four episodes.

Speaker 4: 1:02:37

We have comments on well, yeah, people that are watching on YouTube.

Speaker 3: 1:02:41

Yeah, exactly, so for those watching the video podcast, you know Knowing what came before this one, if you happen to listen to them leading up, this one being a little bit more off the cuff, and going down and on a pre-destined rabbit hole, if you will. Is there something about an episode like this that feels better than one where we lead off with a topic? That we're gonna dive into. Yeah, I don't know We'll see. I'd be curious to. I would be curious to.

Speaker 2: 1:03:08

And it's been a golden afternoon, and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.