Join us as we discuss staying true to your creative roots while figuring out how or better if it's worth it to "play the game" on algorithmically driven platforms.
We're also taking a hard look at our own podcast, asking if what we're making lines up with what we believe in. We're sharing stories that show the difference between how things look from the outside vs what's really happening, and thinking over the stuff that goes into making content that resonates with people.
This episode is an open invite to join the conversation about finding the right balance between what you believe, what people expect, and the real influence of your audience. -Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
Join us as we discuss staying true to your creative roots while figuring out how or better if it's worth it to "play the game" on algorithmically driven platforms.
We're also taking a hard look at our own podcast, asking if what we're making lines up with what we believe in. We're sharing stories that show the difference between how things look from the outside vs what's really happening, and thinking over the stuff that goes into making content that resonates with people.
This episode is an open invite to join the conversation about finding the right balance between what you believe, what people expect, and the real influence of your audience. -Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again With the summer and summer.
Speaker 2:Good problem to have right. We got too much to talk about.
Speaker 1:Too much to talk about, I'm sure, today for two and a half hours of pre-show everyone, for those of you who are curious, until we arrived at this.
Speaker 2:This might feel like a little bit more of a meta episode.
Speaker 2:One thing we're conflicted about is we have kind of been talking about the podcast as the thing for the last couple of Part of that, I think, is it's winter, we're not out, we're not creating as much work as much, we're doing more just, yeah, we're not as in the world like oh, I'm, you know, I went out, I I'm working on this right now just actively, and I think part of that's just the seasonality of of work.
Speaker 2:But because of that, like the podcast has kind of become a primary driver of conversation between us for the last couple of weeks and, um, we've seen a pattern, so we've a lot to talk about. But essentially where it starts is we put out a clip a couple of weeks ago, at this point a couple of weeks ago, and, um, it really took off. It was the most successful clip, yeah, on on the channel so far. Right, and it was talking about this really general idea and obviously, like we we titled it in terms of like it was rick rubin's idea of the work as a diary right and you know I rick rubin approach the rick, yeah, yeah, like that's.
Speaker 2:You know, it's not there's. Other people have had that yes, that concept whatever, but obviously we titled it that that was a strategic thing. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Especially cause I've seen Rick Rubin clips from other interviews from the past, like on social media, where he's talking about your work as a diary.
Speaker 2:Let's talk through that to start. Then the strategy aspect behind it yeah. You knew how relevant it was. Then I brought it up and you were like what?
Speaker 1:we keep referring to, not that it's a not our own term or anything, but we keep using the just zeitgeist, like like not challenging ourselves, like what's in the zeitgeist. But I'm definitely consuming media in, in sort of my focused, uh, areas that I'm interested in. Yeah, consuming that media within those genres, within that type of videos, going like what are what's the conversation? What's what are people talking about? Who? Who are the people that are are seemingly more present than other people, and Rick Rubin has been there a lot, and maybe that's a lot of that probably has to do with algorithm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, searches putting the book, putting links in my stuff, and so we're getting served this stuff up.
Speaker 2:We're pinged on. Yeah, we check the boxes, but it is. Yeah, it is interesting. I think we just kind of follow what's interesting to us and we talked about that, but then the video clip took off and just to make a point and taking off.
Speaker 1:So when we do the podcast, alex puts together the main edit right and he gives it to me and I upload it to the youtube channel. And we're specifically talking about this clip on the youtube channel, not obviously, we're not doing these clips as just an audio only.
Speaker 2:So and bear with us this is gonna we're getting, we're getting to an actual point, yeah, so, um.
Speaker 1:So then from the full episode, I harvest out the clips that I think that I like or um, I think are interesting, um or whatever. Like I, I don't pull like a chapter from the video. As we have the chapters marked out. I pull a two to seven minute clip. There's no time constraint, but I just try to find something in that area, and so I consciously was like I'm going to put a clip out there that starts when we started talking about this Rick Rubin idea of a diary entry to see how it does in comparison to a clip. That's more about a concept like. The most recent clip from that set was, I think, titled Pride Plus. Does pride plus expectations equal self-sabotage?
Speaker 2:So something a bit more cerebral. There was a different title from that, I think, when it was first. I think the first clip in that.
Speaker 1:Series of three. That's the last one. The first clip, I think, had a different title and I may have changed it. Series of three. That's the last one. The first clip, I think, had a different title and I may have changed it anyway. The rick rubin clip, just to catch up to where you were before I cut off. Uh, it ripped and it got it's up to like 300 views, which, for a channel like ours, that's that's.
Speaker 1:I think we had 50 subscribers when it went yeah, uh, I think it was more or 60 high 60s, yeah, 60.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was 63, I think. Okay, I don't know. Yeah, but anyways.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There was a significant return from that clip. Yeah, compared to the baseline yeah, so a lot of views.
Speaker 1:We gained 8 to 10 subscribers, whatever that was, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so we've had several conversations since then of so YouTube is a game you can game. There's like a gamification aspect to it and if you really lean into it, you can pretty much I don't want to say guarantee, but you can almost guarantee a certain result, right, um? And so we wrote down recipes, formulas, playbooks and blueprints and we've talked about this concept before, but we what's interesting to us is that gamification aspect exists, those buttons exist and we can push them, and we've kind of we've tried to be very conscious of not pushing them right almost anti, whatever that is and in a, in a way, that is our shtick but, it's not a shtick like a shtick is like that's just how we.
Speaker 2:That stuff frustrates us, yep, and we were like we don't want to feed into that more. It's kind of just like put your money where your mouth is, um. But then we put a clip up and one of the tenants of this show and if you've been listening to it for a while you probably know this is we try to remain pretty evergreen. We're trying not to talk about people who are maybe more in the cultural focus, celebrity kind of thing, and it happens, obviously, but we try to kind of navigate around that and just talk about these the underlying yeah, the underlying Truth, concept, human experience you know whatever, yeah, framework and one of I think one of the conflicts that we had was yeah, you put, there's been a couple of clips where we've kind of leaned into it and they rip and the other one was a mart.
Speaker 1:A clip aboutese. Yeah, and that was our first one that kind of really took off. A couple of the early episodes have quite a few views by comparison to some later ones.
Speaker 2:And there's definitely a couple of topical things, but for the most part the topical things are, you know, that's our core viewership.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then each episode does you know it's a pretty predictable amount of views. Yeah, you can almost get within five or 10 of what it's going to be each week, Right, but yeah, so the conflict arises in, like you know, wanting to push back against that, but then understanding that that's there and how much of that do we lean into? And there's a certain aspect of enjoyment that comes from leaning into that that I think Matt and I both get. So we wanted to spend the episode and that's what we spent. Most of the pre show is trying to wrap our heads around this idea of like cause we come.
Speaker 1:You know, we came in here with like notes and ideas. I had some ideas.
Speaker 2:You had stuff in your head like and we spent two and a half hours like volleying these things back and forth until it arrived.
Speaker 1:Is there anything worth talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah, like, what is this? Like, what is this about? And it and came to this so this is.
Speaker 2:I guess the way we presented it to ourselves is like this is almost, um, maybe a companion episode, but also the vibe that we've presented so far. Is art truth good, commercialism bad? Yeah, and so I, you know, we wanted to kind of push back on our own thinking there and then just also see, like what are the aspects of commercialism that are worth like I don't know, like leaning into or given our what is, what is can do these things?
Speaker 1:can these things coexist and given our values, what's the best way to do it, if and when it happens?
Speaker 2:yeah, is there? Is there a way to do it? Is it you?
Speaker 1:know what way, what way, yeah, and what you know, and maybe not specific examples. But is there commercial stuff that's out there in the world that we're experiencing, consuming, being being presented where we're like we have a positive reaction to it, we're like, well, if I did something commercial, I want it to be like that. Yeah, because that that fit, that was truthful, or whatever, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I mean yeah, let's just, let's get in, let's start with. So the clip took off. There was strategy behind that.
Speaker 1:You there was. There was sort of pre-meditation, yeah, of we're gonna.
Speaker 2:This is yeah, we're gonna use.
Speaker 1:It wasn't just this wholesome like oh, this rick rubin clip clip is good, let's put this up. Like I definitely was trying to think, or I was thinking, I wonder, if we put something up that specifically cites rick rubin and the whole point, if it will get more traction.
Speaker 2:The whole point in us doing clips is traction based. Yeah, we're not just doing the clips. I mean, yes, it is nice to break it down into like bits of micro content so people can kind of catch it. But I think one thing we've noticed is there is a core viewership on the episodes and for the most part, it seems like there are some people who just rather listen to the. You know, we. It's thoughtful, we we release an episode every two weeks. Each one's an hour. That's so like you don't have to sit down and listen to the whole thing at one time. You can listen to a little bit. Maybe an episode's not for you, there'll be another one in two weeks. It's consistency. There's there's a lot of factors that went into that and it's also not thoughtful. It was also just like common sense of like this is where we ended up yeah, um, but the yeah, the whole idea behind clips in the first place is to it's three opportunities every two-week cycle. Yeah, to get the word out right. And so you came up with this.
Speaker 1:The hierarchy of intention was like yeah that was my way to encapsulate how to how to have a starting point for understanding the way to do this that I like and the way to do this that I don't like so let's.
Speaker 2:So when somebody has a project and it is, or maybe we break down ours and then they can kind of project what whatever is working, other people are working on to that. But what was our hierarchy of intention with this podcast? And I again I hate to use the meta example, but it's like it is yeah, this I think that's something interesting about the format is this is a piece of work that we can explore and kind of get in like we're inside of it.
Speaker 1:Right now you can wrench like tweak, this bolt, go over here, cut this out, it's yeah, and and, and I think too, as we get into this, this is like. This is applicable to all the things that we love and care about, whether it's a company or a show or uh, uh, whatever screenplay Stuff that's made because they're going to sell it, made because we're going to watch it or consume it, or whatever. You I think innately sometimes have a response when something's presented to you or you see something, watch something, use something, buy something, whatever, where you maybe innately, instinctively, reflex reaction and you're not even aware of, could be on a subconscious level where you kind of understand the vibe of that thing. And I think that that's connected to the people who made it. What their hierarchy of intention is we talked about in an early episode and we put a clip out about it. Is we talked about in an early episode and we put a clip out about it Patagonia? There's a reaction to Patagonia out there where I think the vibe is their first level of intention is to make awesome shit, and then secondary intentions make money from making that awesome shit or whatever it is.
Speaker 1:And I think when we did this podcast at least for me, it was objectively thinking about our conversations after we had them at a coffee shop after a movie, sitting here in the studio and saying I would love to watch something or listen to something. This I want, more of this out there. I want especially as there's so much more noise the democratization of making the stuff. You know we can do it because of three little cameras and two microphones. I'm hearing a lot of noise and this sounds like something that is a lighthouse of noise, and this sounds like something that is a lighthouse, you know, in the storm or whatever.
Speaker 1:Uh, which to some people, I'm sure this is noise. A hundred percent, yeah, absolutely more artsy kids talking about their feelings.
Speaker 2:Great, but for our yeah, for our particular set of interests, we were serving our own need we were making a souffle because we wanted a souffle to quote what you said earlier.
Speaker 1:Um, and so the hierarchy of attention, the first level of intention is I like this, I want more of this stuff out there, so I'm going to so I bet there's more people like me so let's make this into something that we can share with other people and create connections and and also maybe push back against which would maybe be a secondary intention push back against the noise. Uh, especially a lot of the noise that's coming from a place of commerciality first, yeah, where I don't like their order of hierarchy of intention and I want more stuff out there. Where the hierarchy of intention starts with make something meaningful, valuable, whatever. That's talking about everything that we're experiencing as artists, creatives, creators, whatever in the world. So that was, that was my first level of intention in that hierarchy.
Speaker 2:Personally, so let's take a step back to this idea of commercial like. Again, I wrote down recipes, formulas, playbooks and blueprints. Let's dissect that just a little bit, okay, because my first, when we said that it's easy for us, it it's not black and white, I guess is what I'm trying to say is anything.
Speaker 2:A couple of right. Nothing is. Um, it's easy for us to sit down and look at recipes, formulas, playbook, blueprint bad, we're against that. Right, there's a reason. Recipes, formulas, playbooks and blueprints exist Absolutely. And you even, like we started off today talking about some of the things that we've been reading recently or have read in our, you know, over time, where we're interested in exploring and understanding recipes, formulas, playbooks and blueprints. Yep, because it in it informs just what's happening. Like you, you can look at something. Why is that happening? Oh, it's because of this. Yeah, so rest, like, give me what? What is our Outlook? I guess like when you hear recipes, formulas, playbooks and blueprint and then I'm like now, yes, let's push back against that, but maybe what are the good things that come from that? Like, where do we draw that line?
Speaker 1:Well, here's the thing I think when you hatch something, when you're like we're going to make something right, you're going to start putting together ingredients and ultimately, those ingredients, if they work together, are going to form a recipe. Those ingredients. If they work together are going to form a recipe Right Now. We're not necessarily reinventing the video or audio podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:There are ingredients that you have to have, you have to have cameras, you have to have microphones, et cetera. We also looked at what areas of friction are there in doing something like this as something that is for me, a third channel, uh, in the sort of YouTube thing that I'm pursuing, uh, and then also like a tertiary pursuit because I have things that are higher up on the hierarchy. I have to make money, so my main channel is a thing you have to make money, so your job is a thing right, all of that kind of stuff, right. And so we started fat, you know, coming up with what the ingredients could be to make as little impact on those things that we have to contend with as possible. And then we also, um, understand that there's a little bit of a, a recipe or a playbook for the things that that we like. We like a little bit more lo-fi, we like a little bit more standard def, we like a little bit less polish, we like a little bit less perfectly high definition, well lit.
Speaker 1:So you know, polar, right or not polar, uh, pro misfit you know, all these stuff right, and you start coming up with well, we could use these cameras because it checks this box, but it also checks this box, yeah, and then you start having this. Then you start going well, that stuff's kind of cool right now. Or you know, maybe if you're not like consciously going, standard def is like a trend right now, let's embrace it. Yeah, to me that's the I almost.
Speaker 2:It's like you have a recipe of something that you yeah that sounds good. Yeah, I kind of like this. I want this yeah and then you look at the ingredients that you have right, the ingredients that you can access without a lot of effort. How much time do you have? Yeah, you know, if you want to make cookies, you could. I mean, maybe cookies are a bad. You know, if you want to make cookies, you could.
Speaker 2:I mean, maybe cookies are a bad example but, if you want to make, you know, fried rice, yeah, you can make the most yeah you know extra like you could spend a. I don't know if it's, but you could spend a day probably making like a great amazing fried rice to the store, getting all the right stuff for right exactly. Or you could just be like oh, what do I have? I've got some rice. I've got some frozen veggies yeah, and leftover asparagus, yeah that'll.
Speaker 1:That'll go in here exactly, and I.
Speaker 2:I think that's kind of what we, what we did, and I think that's probably the better approach because, yes, the level of skill comes into it. Like you know, if you're a better cook you can whip up something. Yeah, it's a little bit more, and at first if you don't know how to cook, then you have to use the recipe and kind of follow it. But it's learning where you can kind of deviate and where you can right, you know, insert yourself and it with us. Yeah, it was like setting, like we chose this setting. We could have matt has a studio, we could have used that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we we could have invested more money and could have did some space around. There's plenty of spaces around better lighting or you know easier, we could have lit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we could have had cameras like oh're going to have a wide shot and we're going to have two you know we're going to use cameras that will shoot in raw.
Speaker 1:We're going to get $500, sure, sm7bs with the arm, because that's like the playbook of video podcasts is to have that set up.
Speaker 2:So we took the recipe, though, and we looked at the ingredients we had, yeah, and we looked at what are we trying to accomplish, though, and we looked at the ingredients we had, yeah, and we looked at what are we trying to accomplish. And then you know, yeah, we want to eat some good fried rice and I bury that metaphor, but it's interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, think about using the restaurant and sort of food analogy. You have, you know, a Michelin star right, and typically those would go to the highest quality restaurants that are growing their own ingredients and they're sourcing the strawberries from the Japanese guy that grows them and they're $300 for like three strawberries because this guy has like figured out strawberries and they're like it's ecstasy to eat them. But then all of a sudden you start seeing as Michelin kind of grows and expands. They start bringing in places that are a little more soulful, a little more mom and pop, a little more divey and what they recognize and this is my interpretation, not what they've said but they start recognizing that maybe it's not about, uh, you know, checking all these boxes of high-end, luxury, expensive, rare, all that. It's the magic of the person making it and what their intentionality is, what their hierarchy of intention is.
Speaker 1:A chef could go out and be like what are the restaurants that have Michelin stars? I'm going to replicate everything that they do. I'm going to have the fancy space. I'm going to have the stoneware. I'm going to have the space. I'm going to have the stoneware. I'm going to have the knives and forks and all these things. I'm going to put together all the ingredients to try to replicate this thing You're trying to buy it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but then they're missing the magic right. And so I think, without us being super conscious of this, there's a desire to be scrappier, there's a desire to be lower tech.
Speaker 2:Well, partially on the hierarchy. We we tried to start with what is the magic?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, magic was the magic.
Speaker 2:The magic was the conversation which we experienced ourselves in talking to each other.
Speaker 1:I'm coming away from this with a little bit of magic, with a little bit of progress, with a little bit of better understanding. I referenced this in the pre-show. I won't go down this rabbit hole, but I consider myself a bit of a human experience cartographer and my conversations with Alex have helped me map my own experiences, the experience that I see of others, the experience I see of all of us together, and after one after the other, after the other, coming away with that value. Then I start going. I don't necessarily want to bring other people in when we sit down and talk, but I want to share these conversations with other people. And you're feeling the same way. Maybe we've got something here.
Speaker 2:I think it really fits well with the quote that I read. Yeah, so in the pre-show we I read this quote from um, there's a book of Hunter Thompson letters and the book is uh, it's the proud highway and the.
Speaker 2:The quote is talking about this is a letter that he wrote to a letter that he wrote to a friend, yeah, personal letter, and we've talked about similar things with, like why winogrand takes photos or why anybody takes photos, you know like um, but he's talking about now.
Speaker 2:I've run out of things to say there's obviously no sense's talking about. Now I've run out of things to say there's obviously no sense in talking about this kind of thing, or maybe there is at that. I find that by putting things in writing, I can understand them and see them a little more objectively. And I guess that's one of the real objectives of writing to show things or life as they are and thereby discover truth out of chaos. That's right, that's almost a perfect thesis for the whole point of our conversations, what that magic is. That kind of sums it up. We're just trying to make truth out of chaos, see things a little more objectively. And when we sit down and have a conversation and you have a conversation with anybody over coffee, over drinks, whatever, that's the point is to try to make some kind of structure, truth out of chaos. And yeah, we found value in that and you know we thought, okay, we've got, we know about production, we know about some of the recipes we've, you know, we know how to cook.
Speaker 1:We know the yeah. What ingredients to use?
Speaker 2:And so we decided to to and, yeah, maybe you know over time who knows, maybe we in two years we decide we want to flip cameras aren't the thing, or like whatever. Yeah, but we knew we had to start with the magic, yeah. And then we've kind of created this thing that there's like an aesthetic that's come from that, where we didn't we haven't tried to really copy anything, it's just like what makes sense why, does this make sense?
Speaker 2:so this, when we were talking this, uh, this idea came up of um, there's a cyclist, uh, and his name is graham obree, and some people have pronounced my last name that way. Oh, mr obrien master matthew obrien, so obree, and so I just want to show you this is the bike, and we'll put this in the show notes yeah so he designed this bike. Yeah, so he wanted to.
Speaker 1:So, as you can see, like yeah, it's funky, yeah, it's uh not what you would traditionally expect.
Speaker 2:So there's, there's this thing and there's this record in cycling. It's called the hour record. Yeah, and it's basically you go all out on a track for an hour. It's not what you would traditionally expect. There's this thing, there's this record in cycling. It's called the hour record. It's basically you go all out on a track for an hour. The record is whatever the world record is. It's who can get the farthest in that amount of time. It's as primitive as it gets. You have an hour. You have a bike. How far can you get? How?
Speaker 2:many laps can you do? Yep, if you go an inch further than the person that did it before you, then you're holding a record holder. And so it was like when was it so? It was in the 90s, I guess. So he has broken the world record twice and his record has been broken.
Speaker 2:But he grew up and there's a great documentary on youtube you can watch about him. Essentially he was poor, he didn't have any money and cycling was this world where you had to. You had to kind of, you know, have this pedigree to. You know the equipment costs money. Yeah, at different times it has been whoever has the best equipment has the advantage. You know, there's always something to be said for, like, oh, I'm physically more gifted, but when it gets down to it, you're riding bikes where you know well this you, there's a little bit less friction on the ground and it's going to give you this much, especially when you're going for something like an hour record. Well, he built his bike out of a washing machine. Wow, like, designed it in a basement and, um, he, he basically took the design of a bike and redesigned it to where it's like you can see the weird sitting position or anything. He was he at airflow and this was before wind tunnel studies and things like that existed.
Speaker 2:He basically looked at it. I mean that was happening, but not at the level that it is now. And he looked at it and he goes. I think it would be better to do that. And people clowned him for it, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, broke the hour record twice and he was definitely physically gifted let's not, you know he had the physical traits, but I mean, this is just him like you have everybody telling you, no, it doesn't work, you can't do it that way. Yep, and he does it and he breaks this world hour record twice, competing with guys who are on the top of the line equipment, like people literally pay. So he attempted it. They made like a replica version of his bike and but like a little bit better materials, sure, and that's where he first attempted the record on and he didn't break it.
Speaker 2:And then the next day he comes back literally same day day I think like within which an out, like if, for those of you who aren't cycling, like that's like you're pushing. Oh yeah, I mean a crazy amount of Watts for an hour nonstop yeah. It's ridiculously taxing. Comes back on his bike, breaks it and um highly recommend watching it, but it kind of it reminds, like you know like you know yeah, he, there was a recipe, yeah, and he added his own flavor and he broke that.
Speaker 2:He broke that, yeah, that record. And you know they tested this design too and you know he was just going off of what he thought, yeah, like a first principles approach of engineering on this bike, literally made out of the blade of a washing machine and, um, they tested it in a wind tunnel, like maybe 20 years later, and it was, yeah, highly or it makes sense, like the handles, closer his head's down so that the air is for the most part hitting his helmet first, versus with your hands in front of you but he completely changed his like yeah form on the bike right to yeah to optimize it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just crazy and he's he's bumping up against conventional thinking the status quo yeah the playbook as it's a folk story. Yeah, and someone comes in and disrupts it.
Speaker 2:right, the disruptor and um changes how we think, revolutionizes the it's interesting though, because it's not like anybody, it's not like all cyclists ride yeah.
Speaker 1:It doesn't happen. No, yeah, you've never seen it. Right, right, he's the only guy it's uniquely his. And it might be unique for that type of bike race, whereas the Tour de France it's not as, but even now there's nobody's riding Aubry-style bikes in the speed record. It could have been. Just that's what he needed to break the record, but it won't work for anybody else.
Speaker 2:It's just a fascinating story that fits really well, I think, with You've got recipes, formulas, playbooks and blueprints, but that doesn't mean a thing. And then I it's the interesting like john henry aspect of the story. Or, like you know, they tried to redesign the bike yeah we're gonna make this, but it's gonna be better because it's like and it didn't work. So you know, that's the advertising agency coming in and trying to be like oh man, look at how successful.
Speaker 2:This was we're going to copy it. That's the student film looking at a Tarantino thing and being like, oh wow, I really, I really like this. I want to copy it.
Speaker 1:And to me that goes back to the hierarchy of intentions. Your intention you are just, you're copying something instead of taking your magic or your point of view or whatever it is. Um, and starting from that, yeah, and that, to me, has always been something I've battled against in my experience with screenwriting especially. Um, and even some, some approaches I've thought of for YouTube. Well, this person did this, it did well, I'm going to copy it. And sometimes I think one video I did where I basically did that and it got good results 50-something thousand views but I've always felt gross about it.
Speaker 1:Not like in an unethical way, but just sort of like, well, I just took what somebody else did and replicated it, photocopied it, versus starting from a place of my voice or what I want to share or how I want to share it and going there. Now, granted, you're always going to be pulling from influences, right, the stuff you've watched, the stuff you've listened to, the stuff you've read, you know, I like how this person does this, but I would do it slightly different and essentially there's an element of that to this podcast. Right, we want to make, we think, the form of our conversations existing as content is a video and audio podcast and, like we, you know, just to bring it home. There's all these ways we could do it, but with all of the forces at play in our situation, this is the best way to do it. I've actually told people about how we do this who maybe even haven't watched the podcast, and there's a level of and this isn't us, you know, patting ourselves on the back. There's sort of like.
Speaker 1:It's kind of smart and ingenious from a practical standpoint, because these cameras are very little impact, um, with data storage, which is a big thing, with making a three camera video podcast every week every week and then um, and then cost-wise, obviously they're inexpensive, uh, and they're easy to set up, they have a low footprint, they, you know we don't need to worry about lighting and dynamic range because it's like, if it looks kind of man, then you know, so be it. So they, you know. And then when you throw in the other ingredients premiere, pro with the pod I always forget the stupid name, the podcast editing thing they start seeing like wow, you guys kind of really unlocked the, the big obstacle to even thinking about taking on a video podcast well, and we talked about that in the episode where you know reducing friction yeah um, I yeah, I think you gotta.
Speaker 2:You have to learn that, though of like, I have to find what I have to offer yeah look at the recipe and then adapt it to your circumstance and go watch that obree um yeah, I'm gonna send it to matt too because I don't know if he's seen it but I haven't.
Speaker 1:But I'll put it in my queue it's just inspiring in an interesting way yeah um so moving off of, which is a great idea for an app. By the way, if someone wants to work with me to invent an app that's like a queue, like all of the stuff alex has sent me, I can like put it into an app that has it all like oh, there's apps for that.
Speaker 1:My friend, like everything, cody, sends me everything my brother sends me and it's like I can go go. Oh yeah, what are all the things Mike has sent me? Click, then it takes me to YouTube and I watch it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sure there's some, if you guys know, like somebody.
Speaker 1:yeah, somebody's comment, That'd be so great to just like have a place to compile all the links and stuff. Somebody's like WhatsApp, no Like, yeah, anyway, side note, little side track there, sidetracks.
Speaker 2:Well, this is no, that's actually a great transition. Yeah, because I was going to move into what are so we? We talked about the recipes, formulas, playbooks and blueprints, and then you talked about this concept in the pre-show and I I did as well. We like to read things to understand recipes, formulas, playbooks and blueprints. It's not like we obsess over it, but it is something it piques our interest.
Speaker 2:It's interesting from a observational standpoint yeah and and um, we, we talked about some specific resources, yeah, and so people listening if they're like okay, Um, I mean, the first thing you have to do to be able to alter the recipe is to know the recipe.
Speaker 1:You gotta know how to use the oven. You gotta know how to yeah, you gotta know the rules of screenwriting to break them.
Speaker 2:You gotta know the rules of yeah, so, I I tend to think that that is a good place to start is learning the rules Right, Um, or I mean like you can just flat out break them, but you know, like, oh breeze, bicycle is still a bicycle, it's two wheels.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like there are some things he couldn't not do.
Speaker 2:Exactly Like you could. Like you can make something completely different yeah but then he's not racing a bike anymore, right, so you know you can push it right up to the end, but you got to know what the so what I want to talk about first, your thinking and my thinking on why we consume those things, why we enjoy like right, right, right. I talked about reading a book that you know went through some of the top copy headlines Older book, but it goes through some of the top copy headlines.
Speaker 1:What are the words that bubble up in the headlines or the main line?
Speaker 2:of a print ad. Exactly, of a print ad.
Speaker 1:A tag for Nike, just do it.
Speaker 2:Exactly, that's more of like. Yeah, I mean same kind of thing, though, but you know why, are these resources useful? Yeah, and then maybe we'd spend just a couple of minutes talking about some specifics, um, that have been influential in ours, and I mean, I almost want to look up at the books and be like what?
Speaker 1:Well, I'll tell you the perfect word that summarizes when someone's in violation of the hierarchy of intentions. The word clickbait. Clickbait came because people found out that if you titled something a certain way, it would get people to click.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And they started titling stuff to get the click, but then the video didn't actually deliver on the promise and it was bullshit, it was a lie, it was the intention was to get the click but then not deliver on the promise. And so people, you know this term, clickbait came up.
Speaker 2:You baited me into clicking and what you've delivered has nothing to do with the title and there's a violation there absolutely so are you, is the direction, and I don't want to like interrupt your, your thought, but it's the direction you're going. Then people started to, because I'm almost thinking of, like a casey neistat, yeah, who then started to utilize the clickbait and deliver it on it in an unexpected way. So he's almost using the clickbait to inform the narrative. So he still gets the benefit of clickbait, but it's a Cree, it's, but he's using his bicycle, yeah.
Speaker 1:He's using it not only to deliver on the title, but to actually, hopefully, delight the viewer by delivering something where they go. Ah, I see it, casey, it's almost. It's almost like the clickbait. Yeah, it's like a magic trick.
Speaker 2:You draw somebody in with the clickbait and they're they're looking to fulfill that expectation and then you give them an even better fulfillment, or, like you, you might even an expectation that they didn't even come in with. That's better than the one in the clickbait yep and then they're you've almost, yeah, you've won. At that point and if you can, take them.
Speaker 1:You know, and I don't I can't think of a specific case but you can take them to where they're like. I'm about to hit the stop button because you had a clickbait title and you're not delivering. Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. Oh shit, yeah, right, like that's sorcery, right there. Okay, that's understanding the rules and that's understanding the rules, the ingredients. But your hierarchy of intention is I am going to delight these people watching this by using this construct, this thing that's happening out there people lying in their titles and then not delivering on it. I'm going to take that and get them this close to where they're going to jump out and then completely surprise them All the benefits of clickbait of the reason that clickbait became a thing.
Speaker 1:And then you're getting all the benefits of exceeding someone's expectations, delighting them, and then you get virality Thoughtful contentality and then you get yeah, or virality, or just, you know, word of mouth, whatever.
Speaker 1:It's like the twist ending of the sixth sense. Um, you, you do something like that, and then that movie gets terrible reviews or mediocre reviews, nobody, whatever. And then all of a sudden it's you know, one of the top earning movies of all time and I think back then it set a record for like one of the movies, that, one of the only movies that made $20 million a weekend, five weekends in a row or something. And again, subverting expectations, delivering delight playing on human psychology of.
Speaker 2:I know a secret, you don't? I want to get in on this.
Speaker 1:Oh, like you know the secret right, you know the twist.
Speaker 2:You're not going to tell your friend the twist, you're just going to say there's a twist, it's crazy.
Speaker 1:And even that to me is too much information, because the delight is I don't even know there was a twist coming. It happens then you're blown away by it. Now then what do you get? A bunch of people that go, we're making twist endings. And then they happen and you're like, yeah, I see it, but it just didn't have the right ingredients, it didn't have the right magic. So people came close.
Speaker 1:They kind of got the godfather and saw yeah, right, they kind of do it whatever, and so that's. You know that that kind of goes back to again what you're you're hoping to do now. We're not messing around with twist endings and clickbait and all that stuff. But back to the Rick Rubin title. Like hey, we're talking about Rick Rubin here. We can put this title together and maybe earn a few more clicks or get some more exposure as a result. But I, at the end of the day, feel like we're talking about something of value in this clip. So the hope is is that people watch it the Rick Rubin thing is a gateway and then their expectations are exceeded. Well, these guys have interesting stuff to say. What?
Speaker 2:else are they doing?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Subscribe, watch more content, whatever and we continue to connect with more people. So again, hierarchy of intentions. First level intention make good shit, magic you know whatever stuff. I like this and then using other intentions to try to expand our reach, grow our connections, deliver value to more people. You know, whatever. Hopefully that circled back a little bit, yeah, where it started.
Speaker 2:Well so getting like the whole thing was resources, I guess, yeah. So I mean, yeah, clickbait, one example for sure. Um, understanding. I think it's also just understanding that there's an underlying dynamic. It's just about anything, yeah, and you can. I think one thing we enjoy doing is kind of going away from that and just, you know, free, associative kind of putting things together. Here's an idea, let's play with it. Okay, put it back. But understanding there are underlying dynamics. Like casey might have not been, I mean I almost guarantee you that he wasn't going into making videos of like how can I clickbait?
Speaker 2:title this yeah, where's the hole in the market. I'm gonna clickbait build for that and then no, you're making.
Speaker 1:But then he was like skillful at identifying or he could have been like I don't know what the title of video is, I'm gonna tell this story. And then, when he was thinking about titles or whatever, he was like oh, if I title it this way, it's kind of clickbaity. But then if I change this in the edit, it could like oh. And then he's like oh, you know, it's not like he had. You know, you just have it all figured out from the top.
Speaker 1:Um, just just a kind of another meta thing. Like while we were, after we got done with talking about clickbait, and just when you started taking things back, my brain went to I'm going to remember to pull the clip about clickbait and twist endings, because that topic clickbait and twist endings, whatever the title is I'm already thinking of the title of the clip. I'm going on a secondary level of intention on the hierarchy. I'm going that's interesting to me. So if I saw a clip that was titled something like clickbait and twist endings don't lie in your videos, or whatever, whatever the title would would end up being, that to me is elevated above some of the other things that we might pull as a clip.
Speaker 2:Or do you even like go a step further and just title it something entirely clickbaity, you know?
Speaker 1:as long as there's not a betrayal like but yeah, but I think addressing, unless it was like the, the, the addressing the betrayal. It's kind of meta which is a little too on the nose, but yeah, no, there's there's definitely.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think that's part of the fun is experimenting with some of that stuff, and we've got such a low stakes environment here that it's fun we can experiment with it.
Speaker 1:But here's the other thing too. When I think about that in that clip clickbait and twist endings, right the first, one of the first things I'm thinking about is how can I use this clip that has value to me as someone who would stumble across it objectively? I'm looking at it from the objective point of view, like Hunter S Thompson, right, how does putting that clip out there connect us with more people versus how does it get me more views?
Speaker 2:Views to me is a byproduct of connecting with more people, or more people sharing that clip, or more people, whatever I don't, I, I think connecting with more people I think just break that down even a little bit views is a byproduct of emotional connection. Period, right, like money is a byproduct of emotional. Anything in the world right, that is some kind of metric is a byproduct of some sort of connection. Whether that's fulfilling a desire, whether that's, you know, fulfilling a need, there's a human element to it at all times.
Speaker 1:And I think, unfortunately, you know a lot of us there's like this surface level, um, there's like this surface level, um, communication of success or know-how, or uh uh, uh, aptitude aptitude Is that the right word Um, with doing this mastery, because someone hears your video got a million views, like a million views, or 100,000 subscribers.
Speaker 1:A lot of people don't go to that next level, even subconsciously, of look at all the connections you've made, look at how many people have enjoyed your stuff. It's just, you know, it's box office, it's this thing that doesn't make a lot of us think at what that really means. Well, what does that really represent? It stays for a lot of people at this level. And then I think we sometimes, as makers of things, creators, communicate to others yeah, that video got 100,000 views. Use, and we're only thinking of it as that metric, that, that, that that communicates the value or validity of what I'm doing, where the real thing that matters for the people, that whose hierarchy of intentions is a little bit more aligned with what my values are, is look at all the people I've I've connected with and to share these ideas and to have a community or to have a book club, whatever that aspect of it.
Speaker 1:So I think, just to wrap up that point, we got on the phone, the video is ripping, as we call it, rip Ruben, but I felt like there's a subtext there, an extra layer. When we're talking about it, we're not like whoa, this is going to mean sponsors Like we're going to get monetized soon.
Speaker 2:That never came into the conversation.
Speaker 1:There's just a default feeling of this resonated with people and it wasn't bullshit, it wasn't like, well, they care about Rick Rubin. Yeah, I mean, there is an element of that, but then I think I watched the view duration. The view duration was well over two minutes, average view duration, and that tells me again, look like two minutes, like who cares. Well, that means to me that they were going, oh yeah oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Cause talked about the rick rubin point for like the first minute, yeah, and then it kind of went into other stuff related to it and for us like.
Speaker 2:The idea was using work as a diary the idea had nothing right, I mean rick rubin happened to be the vehicle that hit us at that time. Yeah, like we, we both heard it and talked about it, but the idea was something that resonated with us on an emotional level and now, and hopefully for viewers they saw, you know I'm I'm clicking because of rick rubin or I know about the diary thing.
Speaker 1:I want to hear what these guys think about it. Or I have no clue what this diary thing is, but that's interesting.
Speaker 2:I've never thought of it and I want to circle back to what, what you just about, how, our conversation and like, just how, like identifying, for I guess the question would be, is it worth auditing this stuff? And I want to talk about the Bible versus the National Enquirer thing. I want to work that in. But we did kind of talk about resources.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So maybe just let's spend three minutes on resources and then we'll move to that.
Speaker 1:Bible versus National Enquirer intentions and maybe we finish out on that point and can I just say. I just want to say one thing.
Speaker 2:This is not going to take us anywhere.
Speaker 1:Some people listening or watching might be going God, they're just talking about their podcast. This is just like an episode about this hierarchy of intentions and all this stuff, this hierarchy of intentions and all this stuff. My intention in talking about this is how can we use what we're doing and how we're feeling about it, our reaction, our thoughts, the values behind it, the intention behind it. And if you're making something, the viewer is making something painting photographs, a YouTube channel, whatever it is like. Just trying to court, like correspond what we're doing to what they're doing this is.
Speaker 2:This is not us, just like the rick rubin, this is the vehicle yeah, the idea like.
Speaker 1:The podcast is just a useful metaphor, right for how we want to be thinking about what we're, what our thinking is in making stuff. Yeah, um, what our guidelines are, and not necessarily like we went in knowing them yeah we're exploring them and discovering them as we go. But then there are also things that you know, we knew and know going into it.
Speaker 2:Well, I, having something low stakes where we can review, like so immediately and directly, the inner workings and mechanics of right, that is such a creative act. Yeah, and that's so like you know you don't see the byproducts of putting out. You know you work on like a lot of the stuff we screenplays or, yeah, you know, photo projects, and it is more long term, sure, and so it's so helpful for us. I think, just like this is a testing ground, this podcast it's, but yeah, it's a metaphor for what we're trying.
Speaker 1:It's just a useful metaphor and, in this video, specifically being a mechanism to get us into this conversation about these opposing forces, these two camps, if you will, not to make it too binary these two camps, if you will, not to make it too binary but a general part of the population making things with a different hierarchy of intentions and us making it with our set of hierarchy of intentions and we did talk about this at the beginning and I promise we're going to get into it.
Speaker 2:But no, it is this idea of we just kept. We talked about oh we really don't think commercial stuff bad, and then you just sit with that and it started to feel dishonest between the both because we're so plugged into all of that. Like we're so interested in, like, oh well, what if you change this word? And what if you?
Speaker 1:you know the little mechanics, the thumbnail, you know Because that is part of the. You know it's part of it's a puzzle to solve.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's part of the craft of it. Yeah, it's part of the craft, right, and you know the artistic side is fun, but we also do enjoy the craft side and we stress the craft side. Yeah, and I think that's where the interest comes from is like there is a craft to commercial viability, in a sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so like part of the, and what is commercial viability, connecting with more people right Right Like resonating with more people, exactly and in a, not a right Right Like resonating with more people, exactly, and in a not a superficial way, right.
Speaker 2:And not a or manipulative way or an exploitative way, and that's our definition.
Speaker 1:Other people have different definitions, I'm sure, and this goes back to National Enquirer and the Bible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so before we get a National Enquirer and the Bible and talking about kind of I'm just like Alex is like Matt, quit grabbing the wheel.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, I mean we're flowing, I just, you know, like getting on delivering on promises.
Speaker 2:you know we're like oh, we're going to talk about some resources, I just don't want to leave that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we got to stop and get gas first.
Speaker 2:We're going to run out of gas. Yeah, that you found, in exploring this, the craft side of commercial viability. Like you can talk about specific books maybe. Um, you know, I've there's some books that come to mind. Uh, on my end, some of them are, I mean, a lot of them are just more general, like there's, there's a great advertising book I read a couple of years ago called um hey Whipple squeeze this.
Speaker 1:It's about like the toilet paper.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah but it's so, it um, that's gonna be one of your thumbnails by the way squeezing the toilet paper. Squeezing the tp um you know that that book was extremely helpful to me in understanding, like, how to craft a headline, how to craft you know good copy that, and not in the sense of like, oh, if you do this, you're gonna, but just in understanding the underlying mechanics.
Speaker 2:So there's another one, um breakthrough advertising, where it talks about, like the dynamics of copy, and we talked about some of robert green's books um 48 laws, of power mastery, um just understanding the underlying dynamics of um power relationships and you know, political structures and, uh, I mean psychology resources. Yeah, uh, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm doing more of like the pop, yeah, yeah, like the pop.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, yeah, just study like, study, study, philosophy psychology, um, uh, you know, I've read a few advertising books especially, not only just in the copywriting itself, like how to write a good headline and then the supporting material, even though print ads don't really do a lot. I mean the older print ads that I studied it's all have like a lot of copy underneath the headline and the photo but it that's the same thing though body copy is the video the headline is exactly right like it.
Speaker 2:We're the dynamics of yeah, they haven't changed, yeah, there's, there's, and the image is the thumbnail, like we're still working on the same, and that's what I've studied as well.
Speaker 1:I've studied old print ads, movie posters, different different uh thumbnails essentially that um bring people in and understanding the hierarchy of that, you know where's your eye go first and then where does it go. I mean there's even that like how does human biology with the eye make you look at certain things before you look at something else? You know the brightest object in the frame, what colors uh uh. There I mean people studied um uh color theory and complimentary colors and how we respond to that.
Speaker 1:Uh, I've, you know, looked at typography and how do you combine different fonts, serif and sans serif, and what fonts do I like versus? What fonts read well to the human eye on a thumbnail or whatever? Obviously, youtube thumbnails, thumbnail type or YouTube video titles are a science as well, but those all harken back to headlines in a newspaper print ads, things like that. So, yeah, there's definitely a lot of exploration of craft. And then the other is in just consuming media, whether it's a newspaper article and a paper or in an app or um, you know other videos, you start to understand what I like and don't like.
Speaker 1:And then what does that do? It makes you go well, I'm trying to look for the thing that I like, but I don't see it, so I'm going to make it Um and I. I think that applies to my final cut pro tutorials, which part of the motivation was people aren't really making their, their tutorials like this. Um and again, it wasn't like reinventing the form or disrupting everything. It was just sort of like I really want to teach why you do something, not how you do it, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Understanding, understanding the, yeah, the, the underlying principles, instead of, and some books that come to mind. I mean you talked about color. There's a Joseph Albers interaction of color. I love that book.
Speaker 1:I keep it on the little shelf here, yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, where rework was something that was good to me. Um, there's one called um the brand gap, and I think it's um marty. I forget what his name is, but uh just look up. He has his other series of books. He has some books on ideas and stuff that are super interesting. These, these are kind of advertising yeah yeah, specific, but just underlying no logo. Um, there's, alex White is a designer.
Speaker 1:You have one of the books.
Speaker 2:I have two elements of graphic design and listening to type.
Speaker 2:He has a bunch of great work on just understanding how, because you do want to understand why these things work. I mean, and there's you know we were talking about the the chomsky um documentary uh, manufacturing consent, understanding, um, you know, pr, you've got um propaganda. The book is titled propaganda. Um, you've got some of the great um. There's just, there's tons of understanding how media is presented, why it's presented, why it's presented in this way as opposed to this way. It's that's important If you're going to be operating in the space. Again, it's like understanding okay, I still got to make a bike, and then you can really start to manipulate the pieces and make the bike that you want to make. Yeah, Does anything specific come to mind in terms of books that you? Again? I mentioned breakthrough advertising. Yeah, I mean so. So We'll try to include.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the show notes might include, like some post right that we didn't mention here there's.
Speaker 1:There's an advertising book that I read, um and I cannot remember the name of it for the life of me, but I mean, I I just devoured it in like two sittings Um, I think a lot of mine there's great books on just writing too just like sentence structure and just the principles of writing.
Speaker 1:I've also just like watched, read, like, listened to a ton of interviews from filmmakers about, like, what they learned from making the movie or the release of the movie, whether it was a triumph or a failure, the stuff that they never would have guessed would have connected. There was no, there was no knowledge that this ingredient was going to be part of the alchemy that led to um, you know, it being a box office match. Others who did, uh. So you know, you just take all of that information collectively and you know you apply it to what you're doing. Sometimes, I think, in the translation, though, like taking what I learned from advertising, taking what I've learned from, uh, you know, newspapers and just journalism, taking what I've learned from newspapers and just journalism, taking what I've learned from film and cinema. Sometimes things get lost in the translation to a different form, whether it's a book or a YouTube video, and you kind of do something that you think those ingredients can adapt to that form and it doesn't quite work yeah and you have to do some, uh, you know, kind of an autopsy to understand why I do think most things, though, they string together
Speaker 2:yeah like yeah, there's, there's tons, there's not really any field in the world, like if you understand human psychology, well, yeah, that's going to apply to any yeah, any field um, you just have to understand how to apply it to the specific properties of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah and and again hopefully you know in doing that the hierarchy of intentions is um, that it's coming from uh. I don't know a more truthful uhless.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it sounds so like oh, this is.
Speaker 1:Human psychology says that if we incorporate a charity, into our podcast. People are going to develop sympathy for us because we have a charity that they blah, blah, blah and they know that we're helping it and then that's going to get people.
Speaker 2:Here's the other thing, these principles aren't the most complex. Yeah, and a lot of like. If you see people packaging them and selling them to you, those people are. They're trying to take advantage of your underlying psychology. They're trying to like oh, come to our seminar and learn how to get millions of views on YouTube, or dah, dah dah.
Speaker 1:And I've been to one of those.
Speaker 2:It's the same bullshit as the as the come to our real estate, make a million dollars seminar and when you so it sounds like oh, you know, I'm not in, I'm just interested in creating art. I don't need to know any of these things, Right? I would push back against that, because these are, first of all, to be an objective observer you have to understand when it's possible to get pulled into a subjective battle or an art.
Speaker 2:It's just oh, I'm I mean like you're talking about propaganda, that edward bernays, but or like just these, these ideas that are. I mean these, these are ideas that go back as far as human history, um, psychological manipulation, like figuring out how to. They are designed at their core and they might not. They're not all effective. There's no like, you know, dark and smoky, da da, da like, but they are designed and when they are effective, they're extremely effective. To get an emotional reaction, yeah, and to be an objective observer, you have to, and at least understand when that is present, so you can step back and be like, yeah, this is the, this is how I could react emotionally.
Speaker 2:It is the artist's job to be an objective observer yeah or at least that is one of the components of creating art, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:And I think part of that is.
Speaker 2:And understanding this stuff helps with that.
Speaker 1:And I think part of that is you know the artist isn't necessarily going. I know if I do this, that a large group of people are going to have this reaction. I feel like a lot of it for the artist is. I'm going to try that and see how I feel, and I don't have a clinical understanding of psychology that I'm then deploying and going. Oh well, I see what happened here. I did this thing and then in my brain this chemical went from here to here and then did this and then this happened.
Speaker 1:They're just using themselves as a testing ground. For how does this feel? Do I like that? There's something interesting there. Maybe they might enhance it, maybe they end up scrapping it, maybe they go farther with it and it doesn't quite work, but they're listening to their own reaction to it and feeling their reaction to it to go. How does that feel? I was just listening to the, the Trent Reznor um Tetragrammaton uh, with Rick Rubin and he went off and did something and he said it gave me.
Speaker 1:It gave me goosebumps and I'm like, but somebody was telling him in the recording studio no, don't do that, don't do that, whatever, whatever the pushback was, but he knew Whenever I get goosebumps I take a note, yeah. On anything If I'm looking at, if I'm photo film, whatever.
Speaker 2:I try to identify why. And look, I'm not, I'm, I am the last person that would push for like having such a granular and robotic. But it is extraordinarily helpful to understand because then you're, that's the craft aspect of it. Yeah, the emotion is the art, like that is.
Speaker 1:But you, the craft hat, like you, have to serve the craft right as well and, and I think I think, um for me that the example with the artist, sort of sort of taking stock and what they react to me, they're crafting it based from listening, whereas some people, I think with a different set of hierarchy of intentions, are observing. So they can manipulate, yeah, and could both get the same physiological response in someone, the dopamine release, the goosebumps, whatever possibly. Yeah, I just like the idea of it coming from that. More artistic, um, magical, like this was a magical thing, not I know if I, if I if I put these ingredients in this hamburger patty people are going to do it, and then they're going to buy more, and buy more, and buy more.
Speaker 2:We live in a world where you can do it any way you want and it's certainly more enjoyable and the eventual product is much more satisfactory if you do that.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know it is. I mean, that's kind of what unique, what's uniquely human about. I think all of us have. Yeah, it's just a more interesting, and I think that's the way that you you get to stuff that's truly unique. Yeah, because you kind of follow that. Oh, goosebumps, right, let's go down, let's visit, yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, weld up, I unique yeah.
Speaker 2:Because you kind of follow that oh goosebumps.
Speaker 1:Right, let's go down, let's visit. Yeah, all right, weld up. Yeah, all that stuff.
Speaker 2:So I was going to get into the whole Bible National Enquirer thing, but maybe we just leave that on the table. Nobody knows what that even means. We didn't describe it.
Speaker 1:I think it goes to what you just said, though without getting into it. To me it's this point.
Speaker 2:This would have been a better point on just what we were talking about a little earlier, but I read this interesting thing yesterday and I just took note of it because it was interesting. It was like this was from the 80s and, um, it was talking about humans and how we all say that you know, we have this high ideal of ourselves. It's like you ask a class, uh, you know a lecture room full of college students, like. Or you know a lecture room full of college students like. Or you know maybe, yeah, like. Or you know go to a class of writing, or like a, you know, I don't know. Like, do you like theater or movies more? Or it's like do you do you and do you read more theater, or do you watch more theater or film? And it's like they're going to say theater.
Speaker 1:Right Cause like high. You know that that that projects a more favorable self image, exactly.
Speaker 2:But then you've asked for, like, okay, raise your hands. Have you seen a play in the last week? Probably nobody. Yeah, raise your hands. Have you seen a movie? Right, yeah. And same goes for the Bible, national inquire. It's like, right, what's you know with the? You ask this was the example, it was 1980 something, and it was like you asked 20 people if they read the National Enquirer, almost all of them will certainly say no, I don't read that garbage. Yet the National Enquirer is the most popular magazine in the world. You ask 20 people what book they do read. They'll probably. You know this. 1980s is a different time. It was definitely more um, I guess uh, religion was more at a, at a forefront. But I think this would remain true today in a lot of aspects. What books do you read?
Speaker 2:The Bible you know, probably 19 out of 20 of them the Bible. It's like now how many people have actually read the Bible Right? More people read the National Enquirer in a week than was. We were talking about how, like you know, we we're doing this and in our mind there's this like justified reason.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Of like, ok, we're making this podcast because and I do think that, but I also just I raised this question to Matt in the pre-show I'm like, are we just reading the National Enquirer and saying we read the Bible?
Speaker 1:Yeah, are we doing what is expected of us or what we want? Are we portraying ourselves how we want to be perceived or who we actually are?
Speaker 2:And I like to think it's the latter.
Speaker 1:I like to think that it's gray. Yeah, it's always going to vacillate. There's always both sides of it. You're always in certain situations. I mean, there's part of me sometimes that goes. You know, you've got a Back to the Future Indiana Jones and Jurassic Park poster in your studio If you want to be a serious artist. A serious artist wouldn't have this pop culture drivel on their walls. They would have sophisticated books and all this stuff you know like you start like thinking like, but this is what I like. This is you know.
Speaker 2:And I think there's room for both.
Speaker 1:You know there's room for both, but those pressures that you get from how I'm perceived versus who I really am, and I mean this, this is. This is all what this stuff comes down to. The hierarchy of intentions the and tear, the hierarchy down.
Speaker 2:Whatever I think the thing, though, like we're, we're always just trying to be as honest as we can yeah like if as much as we lie to the audience is is the same as like if we're lying to them, it's because we're lying to ourselves. Sure, and I'm sure we're lying to ourselves in aspects at all times. Absolutely, I'm sure we're lying to each other in conversation at all times.
Speaker 1:Well, you said it too. When we did pre-show the minute, you were aware that we were recording. It changed. Yeah, it changed. Something changed.
Speaker 2:Just yeah, the tone of the of of the conversation, the uh, the willingness to just float and just work from a complete yeah, and it wasn't like you were lying. It was just lack of expectation.
Speaker 1:I think we were both like falling into show like structures of conversation versus conversation. Structures of conversation yeah, yeah. Yeah, it didn't mean that it was not truthful, it just it, just it's. It was different.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but when we were also aware of it and that awareness was affecting how we pre-show.
Speaker 2:I that's. I think that's constantly what I mean. Most people are like this it's you, you say something or do something, then you that allows you to be objective about it, and then you gain a new level of awareness. And if you're willing to constantly refine that based on the new level of awareness, it's not like you're going to get anywhere.
Speaker 2:There's no point but you can definitely get a broader understanding of how things work and, yeah, I think also it can lead to a more optimistic day to day, because you see that a lot of stuff is just people trying to manipulate other people and that things aren't that different than they've always been. Um, you know, we're just dealing with different mediums and different characters, but you know, the plot. The plot is still the three-act structure.
Speaker 2:There's just a new twist on it and I think when you kind of start to see that and see those dynamics, those underlying dynamics at play, and you can get there by reading and by looking into and like I'm not saying that we understand these things, we never will no. And all we can do is strive to understand a little bit more. But it does offer a bit of peace, maybe, about the whole thing.
Speaker 1:And I think that factors into the turmoil one can get who is trying to create meaningful work but isn't sure how to integrate the commercial component. And I think, understanding that we're going to touch on both areas, we're going to have a moment where I consciously choose a clip that's about rick rubin because I'm hoping it's going to connect with more people, because it's searched for, it's in the zeitgeist. I love the feeling of checking and we've got five more subscribers than we had the day before 100%.
Speaker 1:I wanna see that more and, I think, anybody who's making something and struggling with those motivations.
Speaker 1:I think for me what works is if I go back to the hierarchy of intentions. If I go, I know I did not put that clip out there because I'm trying to get monetized as quickly as possible and that's my like main thing. Or I didn't put that clip of something that's kind of spot potential sponsor related to kind of to kind of butter them up for the pitch that I'm crafting right now so that when we hit a thousand subscribers, we can subscribers, we can start packaging this thing and getting it out there and making money. So when it comes to the commercial component of this and when that eventually happens, if it does, I'm always going to pass it through that litmus test.
Speaker 1:Is this something that goes with our values and what our hierarchy of intentions are? And is this stuff already in my diary? You know whether it's a product I already use in love or it's something that I'm sent and I give it time and go. I do like this. You know you got to watch out because if there's like a carrot in front of you with that, you know, who knows how that's going to inform whether or not you like it.
Speaker 1:I like this enough. I mean I like it enough. I mean they're going to pay us money. Yeah, yeah, I like it Again. You got to run it through all your checks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're constantly being presented with new scenarios. Like we could sit here and plan all day about oh, this is how we react to this, so we don't know until we're in the moment. Um, but yeah, I, I mean this. This feeling that I have right now, after the last hour of talking, is exactly why we do this.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's the whole reason we we decided to do this thing in the first place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we decided to do this thing in the first place. Yeah, and for very selfish reasons, coming in with some things that I'm working on or not understanding, or think I have a clear understanding, but I want to bounce it off of you. It's very selfish as well in that. Going back to that cartography example, you and your insight, your objectivity and what I'm talking about, or your perspective on it, is helping me better mapivity, and what I'm talking about, or your perspective on it, is helping me better map those things.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to reread this quote.
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean like this is not.
Speaker 2:you know, it's not a. It's not a no, not Thompson quote or anything, and I don't even know if it's, but it's just. I mean it really just now I've run out of things to say. There's obviously no sense in talking about this kind of thing, or maybe there is at that. I find that by putting things in writing I can understand them and see them a little more objectively, and I guess that's one of the real objectives of writing to show things or life as they are and thereby discover truth out of chaos.
Speaker 1:And I use the cartography example, because what is a map? It is an objective point of view of what something is, what land is what, what the terrain? Is so that you can see it objectively and make decisions based on it.
Speaker 2:And I mean he goes on, yeah. And now that I think on it a while, I think that the very fact that I write this letter and that I feel a need to write it shows the value of putting words in order on a piece of paper. That's right, For words are merely tools and if you use the right ones, you can actually put even your life in order, if you don't lie to yourself and use the wrong words. So I butchered the reading of that. But no, for words are merely tools and if you use the right ones, you can actually put even your life in order, if you don't lie to yourself and use the wrong words. I mean the fact that I read that last night. That's not. That's exactly the. That's exactly it, yeah.
Speaker 1:And again that hierarchy of intentions, the magic in wanting to figure this stuff out, to talk about it, to work through it, to not know what it is but to just be aware of it, all of that stuff. That's exactly what I guess we should probably publish this letter in the notes, though, seriously, though, oh sure, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1:And I'm going to make a clip out of this portion To me, not necessarily because, oh, hunter S Thompson's being searched for, but to me, you know, for me, I mean, I almost got you know, I got the good feelings in reading that Because I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, um, just what's behind, why I want to have these conversations with people, and specifically you with my wife, with my family, um, and and and why I like when people seek me out for conversation. Uh, it's just, it's such a great exploration of how complex this stuff is, and and and and. I like the idea.
Speaker 2:And how simple it is.
Speaker 1:at the same time, I also like the duality of my tendencies for control. The negative side of trying to understand this is like, well, maybe I can control it, maybe I can control these things, and on the other side, just listening, surrender and listening and being open and okay, well, let's not label it, let's not define it, let's not grab a hold of it and hold on to it, just be aware of it, know what it is and, you know, include it in the process. What this does it's continuing to build that awareness, enhance listening, create, surrender, um, build that map, uh, so that there's the navigation, is, is, is I don't know, I don't want it to, I don't want it to be easier, because I do want it to be hard, it's just easy.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think it does get down to it's less emotionally turbulent. Yeah Right, there's just less. It's more steady, there's more of a case for optimism, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you're never going to eliminate the turbulence Never.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's like taking this thing and just having the best understanding you can have of it, even though I don't know that you would put that in the past and kind of move past it, but never revisit it and enhance it. Yeah, and maybe that's a whole conversation for another podcast yeah, we need to get out of here.
Speaker 2:We're way over.
Speaker 1:But what's the end game here? And that's the other thing like why are you even thinking about that? There is no end game, it's just yeah time is a fletcher, yeah, well, no, we're absolutely you know, it's just completely transitory. We're gonna so let's not beat ourselves up when we want to put a clip out there that we know might do better than another clip. Yeah, because we know what our values are. We know our hierarchy of attentions.
Speaker 2:And then when those values get completely corrupted, then what?
Speaker 1:No, and when commercial stuff comes in, we, through this conversation, our mutual understanding, our experiences, our failures, da-da-da, we know how best to navigate that. And the great thing?
Speaker 2:about building an audience is an audience can hold you accountable. That too, I think that is one of the benefits, because many, many men and women have come in with high-minded values.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And have given way to the.
Speaker 1:Yeah, been seduced into less high-minded values. But anyways, and it was a golden, afternoon, and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.