We discuss the complex emotions and motivations behind creating and sharing artistic work in the digital age. We grapple with the duality of making art for oneself versus seeking validation and approval from others, especially in the context of online platforms like YouTube. The conversation touches on the allure of views, the ego boost of popularity, and the manipulative aspects of digital spaces that can distort an artist's intentions.
We also discuss the importance of staying true to one's artistic vision, focusing on the work itself rather than external metrics of success, and finding a balance between commerce and authentic expression. We reflect on the value of in-person connections and experiences outside the internet, and the need to embrace all aspects of the creative process, including the discomfort that comes with putting one's work out into the world.
Throughout the episode, we offer candid insights from our own journeys as creators, sharing both the joys and struggles of walking the line between passion and validation in an increasingly digital landscape. Ultimately, we emphasize the importance of self-awareness, discipline, and staying committed to the work, even in the face of internal doubts and external pressures. -Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
We discuss the complex emotions and motivations behind creating and sharing artistic work in the digital age. We grapple with the duality of making art for oneself versus seeking validation and approval from others, especially in the context of online platforms like YouTube. The conversation touches on the allure of views, the ego boost of popularity, and the manipulative aspects of digital spaces that can distort an artist's intentions.
We also discuss the importance of staying true to one's artistic vision, focusing on the work itself rather than external metrics of success, and finding a balance between commerce and authentic expression. We reflect on the value of in-person connections and experiences outside the internet, and the need to embrace all aspects of the creative process, including the discomfort that comes with putting one's work out into the world.
Throughout the episode, we offer candid insights from our own journeys as creators, sharing both the joys and struggles of walking the line between passion and validation in an increasingly digital landscape. Ultimately, we emphasize the importance of self-awareness, discipline, and staying committed to the work, even in the face of internal doubts and external pressures. -Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to go through all of this experimentation. I am going to go through making content, because I do get excited about trying all these different digicams. There is a little bit of you. You know self-medication through um consume. You know buying shit like it's just a, it's a dopamine hit to see, uh, a little canon digicam at the thrift store and be like I haven't shot with that one yet let's check it out. That one's cmos, this one's ccd, this one has positive film.
Speaker 3:There's definitely something to be said about. Like you're you're feeling kind of down on anything about the work yeah. Or just like, have it making productive work yeah. And you're like, well, buy something and that'll fix it which is terrible. That's like absolutely a symptom of a hundred percent. Yeah, but I get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this will all calm down, I think, and it will narrow down into into into work that I do that doesn't live on my YouTube channel, at least initially start building the body of work and as long as I'm still curious, trying out some of these digicams, I'll put that on the channel. But if I had to think of what that channel is going to end up turning into, I feel like it's going to start distilling down to just a few camera systems, start distilling down to just a few camera systems but then be, um, you know, street photography in downtown omaha if I travel to chicago like I'm I'm gonna be.
Speaker 3:Is there a world where that channel because I can almost see this happening like you continue to put out the yeah, the videos and you continue to get, like you're going to continue to build an audience, it'll go slow but it'll go and like you got to I don't know, two years down the line, you've continued.
Speaker 3:You've got 10 000 people. Yeah, it's pretty consistent. Yeah, and you, but I can, I almost see this world where it continues to evolve and that becomes like the channel, like that becomes your, you know, your, uh, I don't know and insert youtube photographer who's kind of transitioned past the content phase. Yes, yeah, I think, yeah, yeah and it's more work definitely I.
Speaker 2:I could certainly see that happening. I've already had thoughts about you. You know I'm amassing.
Speaker 3:Because Matthew O'Brien started out as Midland Pictures.
Speaker 2:Right yeah.
Speaker 3:And then it got to a point where you're like I got to kind of combine this. Yes, this isn't a business thing anymore.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, so we'll see. I uh, right now I'm just sort of like. You know, there's this connection to photography and and doing what I've done for years, but focusing it it's, it's getting explored through the, the, the mechanism of making content, but I think it will be distilled down even more into, uh, you know, creating work, especially because and this is a bigger conversation about all this stuff, these books that we've been reading and all that Um, I want, I, I want to figure out how to focus more on making work than making content. That is part of the greater commerce. Um, uh, you know, construct that that is YouTube and is YouTube and all that stuff.
Speaker 3:Great transition, and two for those of you who haven't we've got one person listening still.
Speaker 2:Let me put a button on the Poland thing, because I feel like we started the Poland thing.
Speaker 3:I was going to go back and ask you what do you? What do you think about Poland as a place?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Poland is a place. I didn't have low expectations, but you don't when you think about going to Europe. Most of us don't think I'm going to Poland.
Speaker 3:Um, I heard Poland has one of like the fastest growing economies in Europe. Though they growing economies in Europe, though they do In the past 20 years, or something Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they are definitely on the rise and uh, there's a lot happening there. Uh, you kind of got a sense of that while you're there, if you're, if you're aware of that. Uh, the big thing for me was just that, you know, southeast Poland, um, was really beautiful. It's a mountainous area, not like snow-capped mountains, so there's a lot of outdoor activity. The weather was perfect. We're talking like low 70s, dry. There's definitely, visually, some similarities to areas of Colorado, and so that resonated with me quite a bit. Certainly, these European cities are a whole different vibe than American cities, especially because they're so old. The stuff that survived World War Two, the restaurants, camera stores everywhere, little shops, boutiques, coffee shops it was just a lot to soak up.
Speaker 3:So I heard this rebuttal yesterday and I thought about you and you just kind of brought that up yeah to the age of average. Yeah, in a sense a rebuttal yeah of you know there were people 20 years ago that said everything is going to look the same yeah in 20 years, and I don't know if this is necessarily a rebuttal or just like uh, this is where we are now, but they, they, they talked about this idea that you can still travel to different places in the world and they have their unique character.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so it kind of fights back against that. Everything looks the same, yeah, so do you? Did you feel that way and like I was thinking about that.
Speaker 2:I'm like, you know, there there was, there was um an element where, you know, you look at these older buildings and there's certainly different architectural styles that you see, but for the most part there were a lot of buildings that were very similar, especially on these narrow streets in Bielsko-Biala, and you've got a lot of buildings that are less ornate. There's not a lot of, you know, and it's hard too, because some of these cities, especially Krakow, you know, really got hammered in World War II and some of these buildings were rebuilt based on the original design. So it's newer construction but it's still embracing whatever the architecture was before it was destroyed.
Speaker 2:Early 50s yeah embracing whatever the architecture was before it was destroyed early 50s. Yeah, um, you know it's, and it's so hard because you're in a new place. Um, there's so much that feels different about where you live that it's hard to see the sameness within it because, just looking at it, all of it's different than us cities, especially. You know the cities that aren't like more european, inspired like boston. You know the cities that aren't like more European, inspired like Boston. You know the older, the older US East Coast cities.
Speaker 3:I think about that every time we're downtown too. I know we're going to go down and shoot tonight. Yeah, shoot tonight. I'm going to think about the idea of what are we walking by right now?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's so interesting to an outsider that we just don't even register Right take it for granted and all that. And it was interesting too, speaking to some of the, the people that worked at motion VFX, and how they all, like, when they think about traveling, they think about coming to the U? S, we all think about coming to Europe, uh, and so you know, uh, you know, and that's just human nature. Um, so I didn't spend a ton of time in Krakow, cause we, we just basically went back there the day before our last day, stayed the night and then had a little bit of time the next day to explore before I had to take off and head home. So for the most part, we were out in nature. We were in Bielsko-Biala.
Speaker 2:There wasn't a ton of time in town because we were mountain biking. We hiked up one of the mountains and stayed at a mountain shelter overnight, which was like a yeah, it was super cool like a camp shelter. No, it's, it's like a, an old um, mountain um. It's not a home, it's like a two-story thing. There's a bunch of different rooms that have bunk beds so you co-sleep, um, you don't have a kitchen in the room. The people there have a kitchen in like a main dining area and they prepare the food for you. The word that I kept thinking of was like a mountain chalet, like I don't know how else to describe it Like a mountain hostel, almost. Yeah, yeah, exactly, so we weren't spending a lot of time in urban areas.
Speaker 2:Um, and really the big takeaway just to kind of put a button on the whole poland thing was I mentioned to you before we started recording that there's this feeling of, before the smartphone, you went to the internet, you were living in real life and you would went to the internet. You were living in real life and you would go to the internet for something and you would spend a little time in the internet and then you would go back to real life. But the bulk of your life is in real life and now, since the smartphone, I feel like most of my life, especially as a YouTuber, is spent in the internet, and then I leave the internet to go be in real life for a little while. So you get 10 people together that live in the internet.
Speaker 2:They're making YouTube videos, they're on their phones, they're on their computers, they're jacked in all the time, and then you get us out in the middle of nowhere where we can't really be on our phones Most of us are from the US, so we don't have a ton of, it's not easy access to the internet out there and we're like on cloud nine, I think, because we're just like not in the Internet and we are in front of these people who are our Internet friends, that we watch on their YouTube channels, we talk on our Discord server. We don't have like direct face to face contact and there's just like all this excitement about being together, being disconnected from the Internet, about being together, being disconnected from the internet, and all of that alchemy creates this amazing experience and you come away with it like I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:That was possible to have 10 grown men hang out and just talking nonstop, like we do here on our podcast, but with 10 people and there's no drama and everybody's excited to talk about everything from what's going on in their personal lives, their careers, content creation, all of that stuff, and it's just this like love fest it's it was nuts, yeah, um, and so you come away with it. Just, I mean, unica, what?
Speaker 3:you're describing is normal life in 1974. Exactly, and that's what you feel like. You're like. Oh, this you're describing is normal life in 1974. Exactly, and that's what you feel like. You're like. Oh, this is like Tuesday afternoon in 1974.
Speaker 2:This is like what life used to be like before you spent your whole time in the Internet and even a Unica, who was our contact through Motion VFX, were having a dinner one of our last nights.
Speaker 2:Nobody's on their phones and, granted, we're all there like to make some content. So there was time where we're filming stuff or we're posting Instagram story, but we were all in a hurry to get out off the internet because we didn't want to be on it and she's like in tears about not not not in a bad way, but in tears about the sort of the chemistry and the magic of the togetherness and the vibes and the energy Cause we're all focusing this positive, excited energy into this central thing in our group and it was just crazy and I feel like I've had an approximation of that in us sitting here and having conversations. We feel that I have it when my family and I we unplug from our normal lives and go to Lake Okoboji or go to Colorado and you're not on your phone, you're not doing a to-do list, you're not doing all this stuff and you're like, oh shit, like this is nice.
Speaker 3:It's so weird because I do feel like that's almost kind of what, like that was part of the reason that we wanted to start this. Yeah, which is hard to say, right, cause everybody that listens to this is listening on the internet, right?
Speaker 2:But. But they are feeling an element of hanging out with us, we would hope, we would hope.
Speaker 3:And. But also like building a group, like you said, like a group dynamic, and just show like, hey, this can be bigger, you know we dynamic. And just show like, hey, this can be bigger, you know we. We have the camera set up, but we've talked about it before.
Speaker 3:We wanted to keep it as simple and just hanging out at the table with a couple of microphones as we can yeah, we didn't want to do it, the whole like oh, let me get this magic arm and well, and, and that's also why some of these episodes- feel like a little bit of a free-for-all, because we're not like producing a produced show and hey, alex, you're going off on the rails here.
Speaker 2:Like we got to focus on the topic like we got to deliver.
Speaker 3:Some people are listening to this one. They're like, yeah, wish you guys would have done that. But right for sure it's, and it's very much. We're just trying to be like we would be hanging out, we pull in.
Speaker 2:Hanging out, yeah, hanging in.
Speaker 3:Poland hanging out at the cigar bar. At the cigar bar. Yeah, we did a podcast episode.
Speaker 2:So how much fun. That was right Like the three of us hanging out so good. Yeah, it's almost like you have to kind of go.
Speaker 3:It was like four and a half hours too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and a stranger talked to us and we struck up a conversation with her and you almost sit there and go, oh yeah this is normal life, yeah yeah, but we sit here working remotely. We're jacked in the Internet, we're whatever and watching movies. I'm watching YouTube at night, like we're in the Internet, so much that I mean it's nice that when you are actually having like human interaction, that it's heightened because you're not used to it.
Speaker 3:I think I don't like that. I think we're still learning how to implement the Internet. The Internet is amazing. The Internet needs to stay around forever. Life with the Internet is exponentially greater than life without the Internet. That's my preamble, right? Yeah, but we're still learning how to. I I think we were more right in the early 2000s, late 90s, than we are now. Yeah, like having that version of it. I love being like even the the new chat gpt, you know yeah, essentially yeah is it's?
Speaker 3:cool I haven't used it yet I haven't either, but the one you showed me, I was like well, you know how. You know I love to have conversations with my yeah.
Speaker 3:Um no, I think all that stuff is really cool, but, man, it it becomes so like when I'm working at my typewriter or when I'm, you know, developing film, or yeah, if I'm just sitting here and I've got the CRTV on or just sitting in, I told, I told Audrey, like the secret to happiness in life is good chairs, good tables, good books that's great. Good books, that's great. It. It becomes so glaringly apparent, though, that we live in like one of the best times that you could have, could be alive. Yeah, when you, when you start to kind of recognize like we have choice that we can do.
Speaker 3:Get your information from the internet, yeah, but like that doesn't have to be. No, that's not oxygen, yep, it is. Use it as a, you know, on top of a strong foundation, social foundation. Going out, hanging out with people experiences yeah, I mean my best memories from the last couple of, like a couple of months, or I was hanging out at, you know, bars around town, or like picking up the camper together picking up the camper driving around like or just walking around shooting street and talking exactly yeah, it's, and you know, or doing the podcast, it's not.
Speaker 3:There's nothing that comes up where I'm like man, my the best memory I have from the last none of it is internet based.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's just a complete compliment to what what we, if I did have like really good memories of something internet based, I think it's, you know, for me it's discovering new, new, new um topics or sort of like worlds of thought that I didn't know existed. You know, and I do love going down the rabbit hole of watching some videos or um reading articles online or whatever, to develop a better map of how things work and how I work within those systems and constructs, greater awareness, more self-awareness, um of like the levers of society and civilization that are being pulled, and finding some of these books that we're starting to read both together and separately. You know that stuff is great, but ultimately the best part is taking that stuff and then sitting down with you or Bruce. Bruce just sent me another article and he wants to grab coffee and sharing our experiences of consuming that information of each other's point of view, all of that stuff I have to tell you about Audrey and I's new business idea that we've been kicking around.
Speaker 3:Oh boy Off air.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, you're involved in it?
Speaker 3:okay, you're involved in it. You don't know you are, but you are a partner we've already signed the paperwork, so no um, no, I think it's. I think it's important to realize that they're the separation between.
Speaker 3:There is a separation between the real world and the online world and I know that sounds like obvious, but I think to some people and me included in this at different times, it's like it becomes less obvious when you're in something and you're in a I wouldn't say a rabbit hole, because a rabbit hole it's something I think about the positive. But when you're in a internet cycle or like you're in a whatever it's hard to like, you can waste an entire day oh, 100 percent Just doing nonsense, or like refreshing a page, or like checking between four different websites or making stuff that you're going to put on the internet.
Speaker 2:That's my thing is this week, and I don't know why it is for me, but like these, these the spring and the fall, when the weather is basically perfect, it is that's the time I struggle the most. I sit there and I go. It's 72 degrees outside, it's dry, the sun is shining. I want to be out in the real world. Even if I'm on my own doing something, it doesn't. It can be taking pictures.
Speaker 3:It can be in in public.
Speaker 2:You can be reading and sitting and having a coffee, yeah, like being not in the internet and I'm and I'm feeling another desire like, well, but I really want to make this thing and it's a video and I'm going to put it on the internet. So I have to be here in my studio, I have to press record, I have to talk about it, then I have edit it together and I love making that thing and I love putting it out there and I love sharing it, because you're, in essence, having a conversation with the people that are in your online community and all that. But I just I'm like what's the cost of this? I get to the end of the day, uh, and I feel like I I missed out on a rare thing of perfect weather, access to the real life, um, to to real life. But you know, again, the the oxygen is making stuff and I need money. I got to make money, I got to pay these bills. I got to.
Speaker 3:I got to dig out. I had an interesting conversation with a um with a good friend of mine, um, earlier this week and with a um with a good friend of mine, um, earlier this week and um, this person's like just super important in my life. You'll meet him at some point, um, but you know, life lifelong musician, um, he's in his 80s at this point, but one of those guys who just like, doesn't really like, doesn't really have an age to him. Yeah, if that makes sense. Just super positive about everything, always excited about something. It's taught me pretty much everything I know I mean not everything I know, but has definitely given me, like, the way to look at what it means to be to live like a life. Yeah, just creating things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or like doing that kind of thing, and so I was having a conversation with him earlier this week and he's he's really good at just like kind of identifying what's going on and being like, hey, we're going to talk about this, and there was. You know, he's the person that I always talk to when I'm like writing a lot, yeah, and I don't know why, but like he's written a couple of like musicals and you know that's kind of his area Lifelong songwriter too.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But I was talking to him and it got down to like how's the writing going and like there hasn't been a lot of writing lately. And you know, if I were to give an excuse it'd be like well, I'm like exploring a couple of things and like I don't feel, like I've just like put it aside.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like I'm definitely still like, if anything, I have a clear outlook on what I actually care about now and I'm like exploring it in a very specific way. Then I I did a year, two years, go back all the way. You know, yeah, and you and I've had conversations about that like it does seem like there's like a clear this is what I'm interested in. This has a lot of meat on this bone, yeah, to chew. Where are we gonna like, where are we gonna approach it from? But you know, he said this. I was, you know. I was like, oh, I'm worried about money, or like you know, not, I'm not worried about money, but, like you know, I'm working, like I work, I'm doing what I do, and like I gotta make money. Yeah, and he was just like look you, you have to determine, like, what you want to do, what you really want to do, yep, and like this is a romantic idea, obviously, sure, well, yeah, but you gotta pay rent, like gotta keep the white.
Speaker 2:There's that argument.
Speaker 3:You know there's always that argument. But yeah, you know his way of just kind of cutting through the bullshit was like, look, there's always going to be something else, there's always going to be something that you don't have to like, something that'll give you. There's always going to be a plan, an alternative, plan B, whatever it's like. You have to choose. If and you know he's older and he talks about constantly like regrets and like not having regrets- If I could do it over again.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you know he's always like you. You're doing this right. He's like but think about this. That's a really useful perspective, especially when somebody is literally like yeah, you know they are older and he's just like look, you have to decide. You're only given a limited amount of time here. Yeah, and you don't know how much time that is, and when it's over, it's over for all. We know. You know who knows what, but nobody knows for certain. When it's over, it's over. And he's like and it probably doesn't mean anything, like whatever, like you, but whatever you make is what you have. Like that's what you give the world, that's what you give the world, that's what you give the next generation. And he's like you have to decide what you want that to be. And if you want that to be, you know advertisements or whatever. Like that's one thing and like that's fine If that's what you love or content yeah.
Speaker 3:Or if you want to make shoes, make shoes, you'll be a great shoemaker. I'll support you all the way, like that's that's kind of how he phrased it. He's like but you have something that you want to do and you're not doing it and you're making all these excuses and it's taking time out of that. And he was like, I mean, he's, you know, he's an example of this, but he's like look the money, when you, when you're doing what you need to do, the money is there. I don't know how, I don't know why, but he's like that's been my experience is, when you're doing the right thing, it's there. Might not be like the most comfortable, so I don't know. Um, that was just timely, like having that conversation this week, and I've been thinking about that a lot. We had that conversation on Tuesday. It's funny too.
Speaker 3:I've like avoided calling him for like a while because I didn't want to have that conversation right, I don't want the I knew that conversation the harsh truth or you don't want to face the truth but yeah, that was the conversation and it's like, oh, okay, yeah, and I've been sitting with that a little bit and you know it's, it's, yeah, it's, you know it's I, yeah it's. You know it's time to look at it Like hey, you don't know what you're, how long you're going to be here, what you're here for, right, do you want to? What do you want to do? Like balls in your court? Yep, and you know, I'm very, I'm, I'm happy right now, I'm very content and comfortable and you know, life's, life's, life's good, but it's like, what do you want to do?
Speaker 3:Very privileged position to be and I'm not 100, not denying that, but I just think it's interesting and you and I talking so much about like content and creating content, and yeah, you know, and there's a balance too, because, like you said, you got to pay the bills absolutely, but it's like, especially when you start adding external forces that want to box you in more and more, to just not avoiding the work maybe not making work, but making stuff that makes money.
Speaker 2:You know, you throw in a mortgage, you throw in kids and it can be a car payment.
Speaker 3:This is not to say you know you need a car, you need a place to live. Yeah. Say you know you need a car, you need a place to live. Yeah, you're paying a mortgage, you're paying rent or you're living, you know, in some magical situation.
Speaker 3:Please tell us how you're doing it, but you can let those things move you to being a good productive worker versus you know an artist or someone that is you know making work that is you know making work, and you can even, in my case, justify some of the other work as if it's like and I'm not saying it's not Like there still is merit to that. Sure being like oh well, I approach my job as, but it's like it's not the work at the end of the day. No, you can approach it with the same level of craft.
Speaker 3:You can approach it with the same level of craft, and if you can manage to find a balance, too, where you feel like you are making progress in both, I don't necessarily see an issue with that. But it is a conversation that I think everybody who's in this particular dilemma needs to have with themselves. Yeah, Of like what, I don't want to say, what am I trying to do? Cause I don't think there's like a I'm trying to accomplish this, but it's like what? What's important to you, Yep. And then hey, you've only got so much time. You want to do it or not? That kind of a thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think for me, you know, and that's part of why photography has become something that I've gravitated toward and I know I've appropriated a little bit to make more content and you know all of that stuff. But I can definitely see that on the times, especially that I've gone out like I'm shooting photographs of this because I'm going to put together a piece of work, it's not like I feel a connection to what the types of things that I really ultimately want to be able to do. And even if I put together a zine of the photos I took of the tornado damage or I put together a zine of these satellite dishes that I'm just obsessed with right now, uh, you know, um, and I make 10 copies and nothing happens with them, like that's. I'm good with that Cause I cause I had a vision, I made it, it's out there, it exists in some form, and I can move on to the next thing.
Speaker 2:I certainly get a lot of satisfaction out of making content, and the channel member videos I make are a whole different animal. It's a different vibe, it's a different thing, it's sort of more experimental. I can kind of screw around a little bit more. I can do more of what I want than what's expected of me. But uh, at the end of the day, everything I've done, from the commercial work I've done for the companies I've worked for the clients I've had, everything has been I don't know. Everything has been not the work. But I keep thinking that, well, that's, I got to do that stuff to get to the point where I can make the work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you see what scares me and what, I guess what? And this is like this is a difficult thing to share publicly too. Yeah, Because you, it sounds, you know this is so goofy to even I know I'm so stupid podcasters.
Speaker 3:Um, there's this idea, though, that is, you know, it was a difficult conversation and like I haven't experienced that in a while where you're just like, you're right, I have nothing to say. Yeah, I, you know, just like somebody's telling you something you don't want to hear, and they're a hundred percent right, and you have no rebuttal and you're just like, okay, and I was. I was just sitting there listening and, yeah, I'm thinking and I'm just like, yeah, what have you? You know, what have you done in the last? You know, what have you done in the last couple of years that you've felt is significant or whatever? And there's like little things and there's, I mean, and this is one of like it's in a weird way, that's tough to understand, like this is part of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I, you know, I was going through my channel the other day and watching old videos. The studio is part of it. I'll show you, after we finish here, the first video I shot in here. It's completely empty. This is a work of art to me, but this isn't going to stay. This is going to go away at some point, other than what's on camera, and just sitting there and being like, yeah, I haven't really done.
Speaker 3:I found little navigations or excuses, and it kind of gets into that idea of like, when you feel like you're not doing something, so you buy something. Yeah, it's in there similar, yeah, it's similar. Like the idea of becomes easy to kind of find a comfort level and just stay at that comfort level.
Speaker 2:But but I think too, you know there's an argument that I kind of roll my eyes when I say like a season. But like that, you know you're, you're, you're just you're going through some stuff. You kind of halted video production on your channel. You've had, you know, we've talked about, some photo projects you've thought of, especially the Tennessee one where you know you sort of had it in your mind but you just didn't pull the trigger on getting it done. Um, you know we talked to the last photo Friday that we did. You know you were rusty and hadn't. You know you're like, oh, like kind of realized, like I haven't done this in a long time. Um, I think sometimes you need, you need there was some emotional stuff in there too but.
Speaker 2:But I think you need to sometimes go like you need to, whether you go there purposely or sort of it just happens organically. These extremes cause the pendulum is going to swing back and and the conversation with your friend, our conversations here with this, um, you know, whatever you know the the stuff about um hauntology. That, at least my interpretation was that it kind of connected the dots for the most recent video you posted on your YouTube channel.
Speaker 3:Um, you know that stuff's gonna it's gonna it's gonna give you the the, the, the momentum or the inspiration or whatever it is to, to move in another direction from where you were and I see, and that's what kind of like the one you try to get like defensive, and you know, in situations like this you're like no, but the one thing I will say yeah is it's not like I've like. I mean, you're probably a better judge of this than I am.
Speaker 3:I'm the same exact person that I was when the work was the only focus, you know there was no job, maybe before you got hired. Yeah, maybe I am, maybe I'm not, maybe there is a difference, but I don't know that you're not, that you're a different person.
Speaker 3:I just feel like that, not that I'm, but like like I'm. You know, what do I do whenever I have free time? I'm like I'm reading or I'm watching, something like. I might not be writing as religiously, but there is still like a constant consumption. And, like me and you are constantly working through ideas, I'm constantly just like throwing things at the wall. Yeah and yes, there's not like I'm not sitting down or like I'm not doing. You know, I don't know part of. I just feel like I'm trying to be defensive here and that's not the purpose, but there is like the.
Speaker 2:The goal hasn't changed yeah, yeah, and let's not fall in the trap of like labeling you as in the wrong because your output isn't high.
Speaker 3:Right, right, and there's no in the right or in the wrong. It's just this idea of like is this what you want to be doing? Well, it doesn't appear that you're doing it.
Speaker 2:I guess that's I, and I would argue that the absorption element that maybe you're in the phase that you're in right now where you're absorbing things is part of it like maybe you're soaking up all of this stuff make me feel better. But I think that I think we can have those times where we're not feeling a need or a compulsion or an obsession, or whatever the feeling is, towards making something, because we're going through something. Our perspective is shifting, we're gaining new knowledge, we're building more self-awareness. You know who am I? What do I want to make?
Speaker 2:And I feel like you know, as an observer working on the podcast, you talking about stuff that you've wanted to make. You know, I feel like I've seen signs of everything, from still finding your voice to, um, everything from still finding your voice to trying to really be like self to use the wrong words, but it fits within you stepping back and looking at what you made and liking what you made. I think you have really strong taste. You have really strong demands on yourself to make something that is really good and that you really like. And that's such a fun contrast with me, cause I'm like what we've talked about Um, think it, feel it, make it, send it, think it, feel it, make it, send it Like there's less self editing or less self um scrutiny.
Speaker 2:That's going on to say, you know, is this the best it can be be? Is that the right project for right now? And I think that's okay. Yeah, you know, the big thing is, as long as you're not like I want to make this thing, but you're talking yourself out of it for some of the wrong reasons, like well, I don't know what people are going to think if I put that out. Are they going to think you know?
Speaker 2:like if it's, if it's stuff like that is going on, you know, work through it, yeah, but if it's more like no, this isn't right, like this isn't right for me, this is this is appealing to commerce, this is appealing to vanity, or this is appealing to the gamification.
Speaker 3:You know and you're, and you're understanding that I think it's okay yeah, I just I don't want to get caught up in like, caught up too much in the like.
Speaker 2:I'm feeling this, this is good, yeah, no, I think the conversation, the podcast.
Speaker 3:I think just getting off of camera talk was probably, um, but no, I yeah, I just think I worry sometimes about removing myself from the practice as much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, and I need to keep that. I mean, cause there's just days where, like, I find myself caught up in insignificant work, just doing work, like doing the paid work or whatever, yeah, and I think that's kind of where I feel like. When he was saying that and I was like, oh man, this is like a little sharp, a little cut, well, it could be, that's where I was feeling. It is because I was like, yeah, I mean, there's days where you know, I've just whole day gone and like that's fine, like sometimes it's fine to spend a day walking around, whatever, but it's like, you know, I think there's something to be said about working every day. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I like working a hundred percent and I just I just finished the war of art and um, you know, that to me is, you know that's really. You know, obviously the thesis of that book is it's about discipline, that it's about the craft, it's about the consistency, it's about not giving into's about the craft, it's about the consistency, it's about not giving in to resistance and sitting down and doing the work you have to. Yeah, and I can't let like. Well, I made a YouTube video today. I'm good, right, I mean there is. That is one of the factors I put that stupid ass video up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, that day was awful. I guess that day wasn't terrible, but like two days after that was just terrible, because when the video started just like going crazy yeah yeah because you texted me about that one stupid comment that like makes it to your gmail and like there wasn't this.
Speaker 3:Again, I'm not like it's not like anybody was saying anything, but like it was all very positive. Yeah, but it was just the idea of like that excitement, that like it was just a little too, a little too self-involved, yeah, like a little too. Oh, I want people to see this and like this feels good right, like I've literally walked around the neighborhood for like an hour, I know, and then after that I called my buddy and we talked for like two hours. I was like hey, I want to, um, but just feeling weird about the whole thing, like I don't like, I don't like how targeted, like how, oh man, I spent this time and now look, people like it and I care about that, the validation.
Speaker 2:And I do.
Speaker 3:There's a part of me that cares about that.
Speaker 2:It's fun, let's not get it twisted.
Speaker 3:It is a lot of fun it is fun to see that, but then it's also there's a part of me that's just, you know, feels a little grossed out by it, I know, and it was like the, it was like the duality of self kind of just fighting each other and I'm like, yeah, walking around and then I come back and I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to check, is anybody?
Speaker 2:God isn't that. Isn't that just like unavoidable when it comes to making work, though? Because? Granted I, though, because, granted, I was reading the other day about like coppola, like reading reviews of the godfather, yes, I mean, I mean I've read, you know, but I hate that lucas and spielberg go to go to hawaii when the movie when raiders lost art came out, because they just don't want to be like in that state. Yeah, but they're checking the box office, they're seeing what, what's happening and I know seeing like, I like that sucks.
Speaker 3:But even like, like. And how do you like, like in my head, when the perfect situation is somebody who just puts their stuff out and then is unaware for like a year afterwards. But even like the but I don't know if that exists, I don't know if the greatest photographers and painters.
Speaker 2:When they do a gallery exhibit, they're going around seeing how many red dots are on the painting or whatever. The symbol is for this thing sold, this is sold. And when they see a bunch of them, or they see the reviews, or they got an article in the new york or whatever like you're going to get excited about that. It's a thrill. It's um. It's everything from validation to feeling like you're popular, um, um, it's well, it's juvenile. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Oh look, I'm popular in high school.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, and you know, even even if the making of the thing all came from a more pure and truthful place, I just don't know how you put something out in the world and if it does catch on, that you don't get a thrill out of it and from it and have some sense of validation, some sense of I told you so maybe to some of the naysayers some sense of um how it's going to advance your station in the world that you are a part of.
Speaker 2:And I think, like part of the, I agree, Like I just don't, like I don't know if there's a I think, I think you know, did you, when you were seeing it go off, did you start having feelings of like, well, what can I make next to get another one?
Speaker 3:You know no. If anything, I was just like next to get another one? You know, no, if anything I was just like, I think, I think, I think it. I I've created this toxic association between and like look this, it's not like. This is like like this is absolutely a microcosm yeah, yeah, yeah but there is this, like it's like.
Speaker 3:I didn't make that for you, I made that for me yeah and then I want to give it out there, because the other part of me is like, well, you have to put it out there, yeah, for other people to see it. Yep, so you. And then it's like the weird pridefulness that comes with that, and then the weird like thinking like, is this going to contaminate the next thing? Yeah, it really. It's just like, isn't?
Speaker 2:that the beauty of this all, though?
Speaker 3:isn't that the beauty of making something and putting it out there, and you have that duality, you have well and like yeah, I, I, I accept that there's the duality exists, yeah, but I don't know, in my head of my heroes they put their things out and then they just they. I don't look at it, you know, like that's the image that is the Christlike figurehead in my head of, like you know, marty puts out, you know, yeah, good fellas, and then he's just on to the next one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, on to the next one. There's no folk, it, it is the world's. Now, go be, go be the world's.
Speaker 2:I think the beauty of if they are tapping into how much it's resonating.
Speaker 3:I feel like it's that they they are curious if it's connecting with people and if it's meaning something to people well, not that like don't get me wrong, that means that means a lot to me to see like a positive reaction to something yeah, and especially your video, which is no negative reaction to that from what like what made it to me which was very cool because it was.
Speaker 3:It was definitely like a bit of a. You know, I was out on a ledge a little bit with what I was, but I kind of didn't care like I was like if this gets five views, it gets five views, right. We've been putting out this podcast and you know some episodes get like two views, right, um, I mean, some of the clips get like two views, yeah, um, but it's just one the sense of expectation. Two, the sense of pride. I don't know, maybe it's just like immaturity and being able to deal with these things or being able to like properly place these and like yeah, it just becomes all consuming. Maybe that's just personality type yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's hard to say I just don't, I just don't I just don't, I just don't.
Speaker 2:You are on a wave I just.
Speaker 3:You are surfing and the wind is in your face and it is exhilarating.
Speaker 2:I just want you to. I just like wish that you could be like. This happens. It happens to varying degrees. It's going to happen Sometimes intensely. It's going to happen Sometimes maybe very, very minimally. But I have things to say, I have videos to make, I have photos to take, I have stuff to write and that's going to be there. When I put that shit out there and I don't want to get less from you because that feeling might happen- this is what I want ai to do, is I can just ask my scar joe to be like hey put this stuff out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like I think. Well, I think william michaelson was really on to something when he would just like he didn't edit his work, he just handed it over to the publisher. Yeah, you think he looked through his books. You think he bought his books, or do you think there was actually a layer of detachment there where he just put it out?
Speaker 2:I think it probably varied.
Speaker 3:That's what I would ask him if I could ever talk to him. Have you bought your books ever? And you know, know, he's probably on the spectrum a little bit, yeah, and so I don't. Maybe there is like a bit of a social I mean, shoot, I'm probably on the spectrum, ask, ask my wife like, but I have to imagine there's, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, in my mind, the perfect scenario is like handed off to somebody and then they can. They can put it out there, like that's what I do with podcasts. Yeah, you handle all of it Right, which I'm grateful for because, I know it's not easy, and I'm so grateful, though, because it does take that burden off and it just frees me from it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I wish I could do that with my channel and I wish I could do that with my channel and I wish I could do that with I don't know why it's this much of an issue, but I know it sounds ridiculous. I'm aware. I'm aware of how ridiculous it is to complain about this and it sounds. I don't know. It's probably not a good look, but it just. I was hyper aware of it recently and I think that's why it's top of mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And yeah, I don't. I don't know what to how to contend with that. I guess it's just something that you just have to do, but it is. It's a very negative. It's like you throw up after a run or something and you're and your body's like, oh, you don't.
Speaker 2:I just think you just keep drilling. I think any fantasy that you have to eradicate that part of your personality is, it's just I don't know that there's any point to it Because I sat there. I sat there in poland going. Why am I feeling right now that I'm like less popular among all the youtubers here amongst us? Youtubers like why am I thinking about that like I? Why aren't like, why do I kind of want some of them to be drawn to me? Because of some like I'm the cool one or I'm the one that has like an interesting perspective or you know something like that, why do I care about that stuff? I ask myself those questions sometimes and I'm like just just clock it. You know, like we can sit there and con, you know, and think that william eggleston like could give two shits that his photos are at moma and they're selling for thousands and thousands of dollars. And maybe that is the case.
Speaker 3:Maybe he truly is completely detached from that and he's going to go back and my dream scenario is like yeah, you know off in the woods, complete like but, but, but if he's, yeah, like thomas, pension, like hey, but we nobody knows what he looks like.
Speaker 2:We can't. You know, if that's not us, we can't. We can't make it that way within us and we can't let that paralyze the making of the work, because we don't like that. Our hero may not feel that way, but we do, and for me I just have to sit there and go well, how do I make that inform the work? How does that become part of the work? Like, how does me, maybe on a subconscious level in high school, being bummed that I'm not popular, make like? Come up when I'm 45 years old at a, at a youtube retreat, going? I kind of feel like I'm sometimes on the outside looking in. Is it like like who gives like? Like it's so stupid but it, but it's there.
Speaker 3:If I were to, like gain a level of notoriety like I think that would also make me extremely uncomfortable. Uh yeah. Like I just, and I think maybe that's part of why the situation, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think about that too. I'm like well, if, I like, if, if, if my work I don't, I don't want to.
Speaker 3:You know, I don't want a level of like, want a level of like, you know the money that would come with something like that, nice, but that is absolutely not worth, like the trade-off of just being relatively anonymous.
Speaker 3:Yeah, in in my mind, I mean, and I think everybody's different on this, on this scale, um, but yeah, I mean like for me it really is, it's just like I want to make and like, yes, I like that people like the thing. Like if I make something, I love the feeling that I like, that people like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that it's, resonant.
Speaker 3:That's what I really care about.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that also. I hate that, that I like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Cause I'm like you shouldn't, you'd be like you don't want. You're not making work as an external exercise, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But then also, yeah, like the notoriety thing, I don't like the idea of of, you know, I don't, I don't, I have no interest in being famous or what like I I even like a lot of like the fame stuff is. It's pretty gross to me, like I've talked to you about stuff like that before.
Speaker 2:And yeah.
Speaker 3:So I don't know though, yeah, it's just a weird see Cause that's it's. It's funny. Yeah, you, you, I think you're right. Like just you have to embrace all sides of it, like and that's kind of the conclusion I came to, you know, walking around the neighborhood and things like that, I'm just like it is what it is. You know, try to change it, think about it, sure, whatever, but like all you can do is observe it, it just it's there. To me, it's just about it to me.
Speaker 2:I just map it. I'm like, okay, this is something that is in my brain to care about. Is it ego? Is it vanity? Is it, um, a sense of self-importance? Is it vanity? Is it a sense of self-importance? Is it wanting to be the center of attention? Is it all of that stuff? And if it is continuing to map it?
Speaker 2:So, for example, if I had a body of work that went up in front of a gallery or whatever, and they wanted to ask me why did you take that photo? Why did you do this stuff? I might be like I want to tell you, I want to give you the answer, why did you do this stuff? I might be like I want to tell you, I want to give you the answer. I want to sit here and talk about all the nuance and the this and how great I am that I thought of this and compose this and all this stuff. If I have an understanding of that, though, you want to talk about yourself. You want to give them the answers. You want to to talk about it in a way that makes them think that you're this special person with all these great ideas and all that stuff. Okay, that's there. Well, I don't know. What do you think about it, what does it make you feel? Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I and mapping that I might love to talk about myself um, can inform how I handle those situations, but I can't deny the fact that that feeling might be there, just like you can't deny the fact that you might feel a drug from the bar graph shooting straight up. So dumb, yeah, and then being disappointed when it flatlines yeah, I feel that too, yeah, and I think most of us would us would yeah are there exceptions and outliers?
Speaker 2:there always are, yeah, but you know, and I just sit there and go look, that's what's there. It's going to inform the work. It's going to be a part of what you do. It's a part of this whole thing. There's some of it. That's you. There's some of it that's the system they want, want you to. You know it's there to influence you to give it more.
Speaker 3:Trust me. That's part of it. Feed me, feed me, feed me. I feel like you do feel a little manipulated. That's absolutely a part of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And you know, I think part of that is, yeah, just me railing against that feeling of being manipulated.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 2:But, against that feeling of being manipulated, right. But again, the more you map it, the more we read these books, the more we get our handle around it, the easier it is to sort of kind of go all right, I see it, I, I get it, I'm at peace with it. I still want to make this thing. Yeah, and how do I? How do I? Through every step of the process of making something and then wanting to exhibit it I mean, I've thought about this too. I'm like, is just wanting to exhibit your work bullshit? Like putting an effort to get it into a gallery? How much of an ego stroke, is it to?
Speaker 2:take all your photos and take it to some cool space and hang them on the wall and invite people to come see it.
Speaker 3:Like it, you know, like it's absolutely right and like come look at my work but part of it is like, but then the other part is part of it is putting that into the world. So then you're, you're open sourcing the if, if, the work came from a thoughtful place, right, right, you're open sourcing it to everybody else, like, okay, here's what I have to say. Now, please, everybody else, come in, like the genius of the crowd, can come in and tell me what it means now. Yeah, more, yeah, explain my work to me. Right, that would be. But some, a lot of it is just commerce. Yeah, I would be, but some, a lot of it is just commerce. Yeah, I want it out there. Ego, ego, yeah popularity.
Speaker 2:A lot of people probably like we're in a.
Speaker 3:We're in a field of like art, especially like writing. Writing for sure, photography also pretty high, and, you know, filmmaking maybe a little less the grant, but at at certain levels they're very ego-driven, they're very pretentious. People use them as like to become separate and I think you're not going to escape that. But the best stuff and the stuff that I think does kind of stand the test of time, time is a good metric for this stuff, or it's a good lens for this stuff, and it's. It's typically not doing that, but yeah, it's just like. You know, it seems harder to separate those things and maybe it's gotten harder in there watching it.
Speaker 2:And maybe it's gotten harder with the advance in technology and the presence of the internet and the democratization of all this stuff. It brings out in us a predisposition to doing things for self-serving ends.
Speaker 3:We're talking about something on such low stakes, right? We're talking about something on such low stakes, right? Like something that is so low scale, low stakes, low effort considered, uh huh, um, you know what is it? What's it like to put out? You know what's it like to put out clockwork, orange or something? Yeah, like, what does that feel like?
Speaker 2:Like, what's it like to put out zone of interest and sit there and be like okay zone of interest and sit there and be like okay, you know, but I think too, you know, I, I sit there and go like to put out, yeah, what's it like to put out the video that you put out, that this, this build-up of this feeling, and this the battle that we all face, you know, uh, the seduction of making content and selling stuff and getting affiliate commissions and enriching ourselves and getting views and getting subscribers and getting monetized and hitting all these milestones.
Speaker 2:And, you know, you putting out a video that says is YouTube destroying a generation of artists Asking this question, and then putting out something that starts a conversation. I loved one of the comments was like, if you like seeing stuff like this on the internet, then you need to like share this, get this out there. Like it was like a breath of fresh air for that person who commented, um and uh, you know I shared two channels on my discord that, uh, you know a vlog. I shared it with you. And then this guy, austin Augie, who's a photographer, and I'm like, even though this is still arguably content, like I want to see more of this. This is the stuff. That is. That's what I always tell Audrey vote with your dollar.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's unfortunate, but that's the game we play, so you can either choose to play it or not play it. Yeah, and it's unfortunate, but that's the game we play, so you can either choose to play it or not play it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, vote with your dollar, but. But I sit there and go, even though you grapple with these feelings and this, this, maybe this mythology that you've created, that your top artists that you really hold in high, in high regard, don't give a shit about any of that stuff and that never affects them. It never even touches their emotion. Um, I don't want the fact that you might feel those things after you put something out in the world to keep you from putting more stuff out in the world.
Speaker 3:I think it's. Though it's, it's like it affects you in the way that, like being sore after a workout affects you, yeah, or like like you eat a little too much of one type of food and it makes you a little sick yeah, and you just avoid it subconsciously, like you know you're not quite doing it on purpose, you're not like I don't want to do this, but it's just like there's more friction involved now on the other side of that consequence being introduced.
Speaker 3:I'm not saying there's more friction Like look, I'm, I don't know what. Yeah, it was just. It was a very interesting day with myself. Yeah, and like, yeah, you, you were, you were out of the country. You know, that would have been a day where I'm like, hey, you want to grab coffee or something? And yeah, I ended up talking to my buddy on the phone for a couple hours and we just like talked about random stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Um and and when you sent me the text with the screenshot, I was like you know, I know you're going through it right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and look, I'm not going. When you say I'm going through it, there are people with like 100%. This is absolutely a goofy thing. But yeah, it was just one of those days where you're just like huh, but anyways, my camera just went out.
Speaker 2:We lost our wide angle. Wah, wah.
Speaker 3:Well, this turned into a therapy episode, whatever I like it yeah, um, yeah, I don't know well um and that's what this is for, I think something's like processing right now, yeah, and like I'm working through and like I'm sure we'll talk more about it tonight and come to some kind of conclusion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the thing that I like most is, you know, like let's not just like try to control it, try to get a handle on it, try to fix it, try to whatever it's, just be with it. Yeah. It's there, observe it, breathe, breathe. If you have something that is on your plate that you want to make, whether you want to write something, photograph something, make a video, whatever it is. I do think, though, try to stay disciplined in making work and in doing something every day that's doing the work.
Speaker 1:It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer and summer. Thank you.