Studio Sessions
Discussions about art and the creative process. New episodes every other week.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
Studio Sessions
44. The Universal Language of Creative Expression - Why We Must Create to Feel Alive
We explore the fundamental impulse that drives us to create and communicate through our art. Inspired by Bruce Springsteen's reflection that his need to express himself is "as reliable as the rhythmic beating of my own heart," we examine this universal language that transcends medium, form, and intention. Whether it's through music, film, photography, or simply speaking our truth, we discuss how creation isn't just something we do—it's essential to feeling alive and connected to our existence.
Over whiskey tastings and spirited conversation, we debate the tension between raw emotional expression and crafted artistic discipline. We question whether today's culture of immediate sharing has changed our relationship with the creative process, potentially sacrificing longevity for immediacy. At the heart of our discussion is the recognition that creating isn't merely about ego or recognition—it's about transforming our personal experiences into something that resonates beyond ourselves, lifting the ephemeral into something that endures. As one of us notes during our conversation, "We want to feel like we exist," and perhaps creating is the most profound way we confirm that we do. -Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
And it had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer.
Speaker 2:You'll keep it in because I'm going to talk about something Marker. Can we get a soft sticks next time?
Speaker 3:I think the slate is the opportunity to set the tone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, and just smash it. Alex brought out three whiskeys, and this is a Cuddy Stark, which I've always seen but never had, and I'm like blown away by how much I like it. I was expecting it to be just.
Speaker 3:I think it's under $20. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, am I going to choose it over a Macallan 12?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:But this is not painful to drink. It doesn't have a lot of burn. It's very light. I could totally have it over rocks and really enjoy it.
Speaker 3:It's got enough of a dynamic palate to keep you at least. Oh, there's something here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm really impressed by how how good this cuddy stark is.
Speaker 3:was not expecting sark, huh, sark, yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. No, no, no, can't even pronounce it right. No, no, no, it's. I feel like a lot of people don't know about it, why did.
Speaker 2:I think it was stark.
Speaker 3:That's really weird I like the bottle design too. It's yeah, dude, a ship.
Speaker 2:I had like my.
Speaker 3:I took from my grandma's house this uh, the ship check out the back too. Yeah, the the etching into the glass. Yeah, dude, solid, pretty cool so I don't know what we were trying to do. I, I was trying to tear it a little bit, not?
Speaker 3:that this is like the top of the top, but um with matt doesn't like peated scotches. So no, I was like, okay, we got a 15 year aged single barrel. Uh, I mean it's a blend, but it's like right, single barrel blend, yep, um 15 year age statement. And then you got the chivas, which is 12 year, mass produced but you know kind of medium level cost, and then the cutty sark under 20 yeah so I'm I'm interested, yeah, if that, if that's the one that holds up.
Speaker 2:I like it.
Speaker 3:I thought it was good. Audrey was surprised too. She liked it as well.
Speaker 2:Surprisingly solid whiskey palate it's really easy to drink and I'm okay with a scotch that's got a little bit of burn. You really want to have just a little bit in your sip, but this is good. I'm going to have a little, honestly it your sip. This is good, I'm going to have a little. You've got me. Honestly, it's kind of dangerously good.
Speaker 3:It's so acceptable, right.
Speaker 2:Someone like me that just might get a little carried away with that.
Speaker 3:It's called the original easy drinking scotch. That's their screw top scotch.
Speaker 2:Once I got introduced to whiskey it took me a little bit. I actually distinctly remember the first drink of scotch. Yeah, once I got introduced to whiskey, it took me a little bit and I actually distinctly remember the first drink of scotch that I had, where I was like holy shit, this is amazing.
Speaker 2:This is really it wasn't the first 10, 15 times I had it, and then I I was actually down. I think I don't know if we had moved here yet, but we went to uh kansas city with my in-laws and my brother-in-law and his now ex-wife and we went into a Jack Fiorello's barbecue restaurant and we were waiting Kurt and I were waiting for my brother-in-law, we were waiting for the rest of everybody to catch up with us. So I went to the bar and ordered a McAllen 12 neat and took one sip of it and I was like like blown away. And I had. I had been drinking McAllen with my buddy, nick in LA, like you know. I had certainly been exposed to it, but this was the first drink that I took where I was just like oh wow, that's good, that's amazing, yeah, yeah. And from then on, you and I'm not drinking scotch or whiskey super frequently.
Speaker 1:If.
Speaker 2:I go out for dinner.
Speaker 3:I might have a Manhattan. I might have some, and we'll have it every couple of weeks on the podcast.
Speaker 2:And I have some in the house and every once in a while I'm making a steak dinner. I'll have a glass of scotch while I'm making it so very infrequent. But yeah, there was definitely that turn the corner moment. So, drinking this. I came in with low expectations. You kind of just think of blended whiskey. I've had Dewars before, not my favorite, so I'm thinking of something along those lines. To drink it and be like, oh my gosh, that's delicious, it's pretty solid, yeah, pretty good, yeah, no, and I love it.
Speaker 3:It's just, it's exactly what it is. It's not trying to be anything crazy. What it is, it's not trying to be anything crazy and it's doing what it set out to do really well, it's a quintessent little scotch. The branding too.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think it's the best looking branding on this table, if you ask me, it's good.
Speaker 3:Pretty good, not bad.
Speaker 2:Pretty good.
Speaker 3:Also we have the Studio Sessions Cubs.
Speaker 2:Yes, with the palm trees Beautiful.
Speaker 1:Very nice.
Speaker 2:All right, nice gift. All right, matt's coming in hot. I'm going to play something here. Hopefully this goes better than the Updike.
Speaker 3:I might enjoy sipping this more than the Chivas, I mean, I think. I'd, I'm going to have to get your opinion on that.
Speaker 2:I'll have to have just a quick splash of Chivas just to compare them, but I think I'm going to like the Cuddy the best.
Speaker 3:This one is top notch, and you know.
Speaker 2:I think there's a time and a place for a whiskey that's really light that's the word I can think. It's just not like a super bold flavor.
Speaker 3:Well, it's like we were talking about like there's nothing better than you know, got a group of group of friends and you guys are just going to drink some. Drink a whiskey. Like okay, we're going to sit down, we're going to just drink this whiskey, hang out, have a conversation, play cards, just whatever. Yeah, there's something really and perfect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really great. Perfect for that. Yeah, just the low-key casual like yeah, have like a beer and a little bit of cuddy and call it good. Yeah, yeah, I like it. Uh, I was watching. Um, I watched a documentary. This is abrupt, uh shift I watched a documentary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is the boss this is. This is not like super documentary. This is more to me like a really really cool marketing piece for a new album. Very documentary vibes, but it's very, quite quick conversational little chats and seeing some banter and working with his fellow musicians from the E Street band, but then you're hearing each song from the album. So it's more of a listening experience to the record and then getting you interested in buying it or you know whatever.
Speaker 3:One of my favorite. I mean, yeah, Bruce Springsteen, I, I'm a huge, huge Thunder Road. One of the best songs ever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm on fire, as one of my favorites.
Speaker 3:Nebraska is one of those projects, just a project as a general term that taught me more about art than I mean not that one specifically, but yes, that one did teach me a lot about what it means to make art.
Speaker 2:Yes, so the reason I'm sharing this partially to talk about it.
Speaker 2:It's a little bit of familiar territory for us, but I've mentioned this before. When you read something in a book or hear something in a film, documentary, a line of dialogue, whatever, and it just, you know, like a lightning bolt in your mind of I've always felt that, but I've never really heard someone else say it. I've always felt that, but I've never really heard someone else say it. I think we've had some comments on this podcast where people are like the things you guys are talking about make me feel like I'm not by myself, I'm not struggling with this or whatever on my own. So it creates that connection and this little bit of the intro to this film was that for me and I just wanted to share it with you and then anybody listening or watching as well, Uh, and maybe it would launch a conversation. So I'm going to crank the volume and we're not going to do with the update thing where I had the microphone going or the speaker going that way and nobody could hear it and hopefully we'll be able to hear this.
Speaker 1:No, this is going to start right away, so all right ready.
Speaker 1:I'm in the middle of a 45 year conversation with these men and women. I'm surrounded by and with some of you Now, with some of you I suppose we've only recently started speaking, but either way, I've tried to make that conversation essential, fun and entertaining. I started playing the guitar because I was looking for someone to speak to and correspond with. I guess that worked out better than my wildest dreams. All I know is, after all this time, all I know is, after all this time, I still feel that burning need to communicate. It's there when I wake every morning, it walks alongside of me throughout the day and it's there when I go to sleep each night. Over the past 50 years, it's never once ceased, owing to what I don't really know. Is it loneliness, hunger, ego, ambition, desire, a need to be felt and heard, recognized? All of the above? All I know is it is one of the most consistent impulses in my life, as reliable as the rhythmic beating of my own heart, is my need to talk to you, gentlemen.
Speaker 2:Jesus, I'm sitting there last night watching that and it just leveled me in like the best way possible and I'm like, okay, I'm sitting there last night watching that and it just leveled me in like the best way possible and I'm like, okay, I'm that's how I feel every day, wanting to communicate, and we talked about it in the previous episode. At third places, I make videos where I talk about my feelings. I talk about my feelings very openly on this podcast. I can't write songs and music. Maybe I can write poetry. I can write screenplays. I can, I can. I can, um, tell stories, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:This made me feel like it's okay to feel that way, and it's not often that you hear, read, talk to somebody that can so succinctly and you know, describe that feeling to where. I'm like, okay, there's nothing wrong with me. He doesn't even know if it's ego or ambition or whatever. It's a mix of all of it, but he just knows that he wakes up every day hearing his heartbeat and going. I have to communicate and I'm like completely set free by that and it.
Speaker 3:I think there's such a clear distinction to like Bruce's longevity and quality. I mean quality's rather subjective, but the quality that I I see a quality in his, in his music, um, quality in terms of attention to craft, quality in terms of relevancy, quality, you know, timelessness, that that truth that, yeah, that quality, um, I think it's.
Speaker 3:You know, when he's talking he's like this is just something I have to do. I'm not doing it because he's like. It might be ego, he's like, but I can't tell. Well, you know, there's plenty of people that do things for that. For ego or for the sake of serving their ego, and that burns out. They don't have. What did he say? 50 years?
Speaker 3:or whatever it is like a 50-year conversation. That's quite the length he's. To have that kind of longevity you have to be pulling from some, I think, essential need. Absolutely you're trying to serve something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, impulse, he sees that word impulse. Um, yeah, I, I just I was completely floored by it and uh, and that's, you know, it's, it's, it's, um, uh, you know, connected to a lot of the stuff that's gone on in the last year, plus the books I've been reading and, you know, films I've watched and other creators and the stuff that they've made. Um, you, you know, hear, see those things and and and they have different levels of impact and sort of profoundness, but I don't know that might be the like the best thing I've heard.
Speaker 3:Pretty succinct and just yeah.
Speaker 2:And again, just just feeling feeling. You know, obviously I'm, I don't make you know you can tell he's a writer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and if there was a criticism of that, like there's a, you know, he did a great job, you know. Know, it's like expressing all that you know. One thing I love about a documentary piece is just sort of that off-the-cuff nature, you know. Um, it doesn't make me think less of it necessarily, but it's a little. You know, it's a little crafted, um, and and and all that. I don't want to sound like I'm being critical of it, but maybe there was just like one little degree less of true connection with it because it was a little bit more crafted I think I've even heard him talk about that in interviews and things like that to a version.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So you know, yeah, it might be a little crafted, but he's delivering a thought that he's contended with for a long time or a recognition that he's had for a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't want to also make it sound like, okay, well, every way that I communicate and how I communicate, I've made this reference think it feel it send it, or think it feel it make it send it. There's still an editorial process, there's craft there, there's holding back, there's still privacy there and all that stuff and he's telling stories and he's sort of translating the human experiences and his experiences into his music and all that. It's not just like me live streaming on instagram about like some drama in my life, and you know what I mean. Like it. You know it doesn't just mean like every time you feel like just talking in public online, just just let it rip you know.
Speaker 2:But crafting work. For me that might be a little bit more me directly talking to someone about stuff I'm thinking or feeling. You know, bring craft to it, bring thought, bring it. You know editor, you know editing, you know um, is that a little too much? My overshoot? You know whatever like be thoughtful and have good taste and all that stuff and doing it, but just the feeling that you want to communicate and even if you're not sure, like well, maybe it's a poem, maybe it's a video, maybe it's a screenplay, whatever, like it's okay that you don't have a guitar and a song three minutes to craft something. Ideally, you would have maybe one medium that you really focused on in your life instead of bouncing around between a lot of them.
Speaker 2:But I think ultimately, I don't know, though, like every medium is able to express different things in a sense, Well, he's got a documentary, you know, you know, you know he's hasn't directed it necessarily, but he obviously played a not relevance in the sense of cultural, but in the sense of just existence.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we want to feel like we exist. It's easier for us to feel like we exist for something, rather than just randomness or that it is just some. You know, we're just a part of something that's inconsequential, like our existence in it is inconsequential, um, and I'm not saying, yeah, it might be, but I think I hear that. Yeah, I mean, that's the why. You know why? Why did I? Why like? Why do I feel like, oh, I need to carry a camera around and take pictures of things? Or like why do I feel like, oh, I need to?
Speaker 3:carry a camera around and take pictures of things or like why do I feel like I need to write? Or why do I feel like I need to do anything, create? I can't. You know, I've. I've been like man, I, I have to learn how to play guitar yeah. Why yeah? Or like I have to learn how to play piano, why yeah? What is that gonna serve? That's not gonna. That's not. You're just wasting time on that, it's like no. But I have something to say and I can only say it with that.
Speaker 3:That's right, that's like I have so I have to learn how to, or like I have to learn how to, like, write a short story because I I have something, or like I need to write more essays. Why? Because I have these thoughts over here that I need to put it, not not to show other people, but just I need to get them down. Yeah, I could burn it, I just need it needs to come down and, like I need to see it exist in the world rather than as like a vague concept in my head and the only way that I'm gonna be able to capture that is if I need to learn how to take photos, or I need to learn how to print these photos, or I need to learn how to write this in this format, or play this thing or do this piece of technology.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Like, yeah, I totally, I totally get it, I totally understand this, and maybe it is just where this. Maybe it's fear. Maybe it's just fear of not having any rhyme or reason to our existence. Maybe it's connection. Maybe it's we feel lonely. He touched on all of these things. Maybe it is, maybe it is ego, Maybe we just want. We want to feel important while we're here.
Speaker 2:I think, you know, I think it, you know it's certainly all of that. It's it's all of that into varying degrees at different times. I feel like there probably are times where something that is quote unquote negative might be driving that impulse to communicate. It might be vanity, it might be ego, it might be insecurity, and other times it it's something that we think of in a more positive way. Uh, you know, and I think too, in the editing process and the self-awareness, it's just you have to ask yourself is ego the top thing that's driving this? Maybe you shouldn't, maybe you make it, but just evaluate whether or not you put it out there. You share it.
Speaker 2:Yeah we've talked about that, but just pause, take a moment, have some reflection, really ask, get other people's opinion.
Speaker 3:I've had that thought with the video I'm working on right now. I feel pretty confident in saying that's not his ego.
Speaker 2:As in that thing, or all of his work, that thing yeah.
Speaker 3:In his case, the video you're working with right now. You.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just had a thought a couple times this week where I'm, like you know, just a little bit of fear or hesitation about what I was, what I was sharing or communicating, and just wondering, you know, should I run this by Alex, or should I have a couple of people just watch this to be like I don't know, man, like not necessarily, like how it's made, or the you know how it's made, or the you know, like you know whatever but like just what I'm saying, what's the intention is something like does this is this?
Speaker 2:is this landing the way that I hoped it would, even if you're taking something from it that's different than maybe what I intended. It's not this, this, this doesn't cast you in a favorable light to talk about this in this way, or this feels a little, you know, I don't know Something's off about it, cause sometimes I'm just not the best judge of that. So I I have to be careful, cause, again, I'm kind of like a well, I thought it, I felt it, I made it. Of course, of course it needs to go. So, you know, and it's tough too, again, because part of the way I communicate is talking about my mental, emotional experiences with things and what I'm going through, and sometimes that, on the noseness of that or the bluntness of that, it's a little too much when you, when you filter those feelings through a song or poetry or a story, a novel, a screenplay a short film.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just not as.
Speaker 3:yeah, it's not as, like you know um and I think that and I think part of it too the craft is able to it's. It's really interesting. The kind of a greater point that you're bringing up is we've changed our relationship to these. We've almost take, like, what you're talking about, feeling something and posting a video about it, is the rawest of the raw right, like you've stripped it down to like oh, these are the emotional dynamics in this scene that I'm working on to just like this is my feeling right now, right.
Speaker 3:And there is, you do lose some of the nuance and you do lose some of the ability to kind of learn from it or to see it in a fuller context, a more complete context, which I think is a big loss. But then also you just have access to the raw human emotion of things. I think it's probably a net negative, but it is a very. We've never been in that state before.
Speaker 2:Right, I know.
Speaker 3:Other than me having a conversation with you and you having a breakdown, or I mean it doesn't have to be purely negative, but sure Breakdown, or pure exuberance, or you know, uh, just complete, um. Yeah, maybe you're you're unsure about something and you're just or you're in denial about something, or you're enraged by something. Yeah, um, we've never had just immediate access to that and now it's literally you pull out your phone, that's right.
Speaker 2:And you just yep, I'm feeling it, send it. And there is no subtlety, Right? And there's something with Bruce filtering all that and crafting it into a story through a song.
Speaker 3:And making it universal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's interesting too, and translating those feelings into a new form that gives people a similar experience to what made him write it. A completely different experience, whatever their experience is of it that the lyrics mean something different to them than it does to him, whereas if he literally just told you everything and he does, in this he talks about why he's writing the album. He talks about the relationship with his first band and how he's writing these letters to the bandmates because they've all passed away. So you're hearing him explain what it is, but it's not him grabbing his phone and pressing record. When he wakes up one night from a bad dream about a bandmate that passed away and he's in tears, just like venting in a raw, unfiltered, unedited way about how he feels and we all watch it Now I don't know that that's a bad thing to watch.
Speaker 3:But there's something about it. There's 100 hundred thousand videos, probably way more than that million videos a day, of that, yes, of of raw on, yeah, unfiltered, unnuanced emotion right, or sometimes even fabric, you know, there's there's videos from yesterday of that. That. Yeah, nobody will ever watch again. Right, bruce's music will live, that's right. It'll outlive him probably by a factor of 10. That's right, you know. Again, you get to like nothing. Like you know, everything is forgotten eventually.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like everything goes, goes away eventually Um well, an update had that quote in that episode about art.
Speaker 3:You know, lifting it, lifting those things into the metaphysical realm, and that's what you're talking about he's able to take this highly personal experience and universal like make it, make it universal, make it right, uh, interesting or recognizable by anybody who comes into contact with it, uh, through art through his, his artistic process or through his creative process, and you're taking something that could just be a passing moment in time and you're able to influence.
Speaker 3:I mean, I would wager to say there's millions of people that have been influenced by Bruce's music. Sure, hundreds of millions Potentially, yeah, hundreds of, I mean, yeah, Billions like eventually, right, right.
Speaker 2:Yes, some point, cause it's it'll live on forever.
Speaker 3:It's. That's such an interesting, you know, are we going to? That's such an interesting, you know, are we going to? It's so valuable to have that higher. I'm almost thinking I guess it's like you're sifting out impurities. That's right, yeah, and I think a lot of the pushback when people push back against contemporary art or contemporary culture, it's we're losing some of that sifting, do you think? What do you? What do you land?
Speaker 2:there, yeah, yeah, you're drinking from a fire hose right now because of the ease of going.
Speaker 3:You know, think it feel it is the fire hose causing us to not be able to sift. Anyways, like I mean, there's still some, there's still some really good, of course.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's still some great music, there's still great films, there's great literature, there's great poetry, all that stuff it's harder to find, maybe because there's so much noise but there might even be more of it now than there's ever been.
Speaker 2:Absolutely well, yeah, potentially well I Well, I mean again the democratization of the tools with which to create the removal of gatekeepers, because we can just go live or post something or whatever. I mean there are almost no obstacles to feeling something and putting it out there, and I certainly have moments where I'm seduced into going. Well, I'm having an experience right now, or I'm thinking something, or I'm feeling something. I don't have to take the time to write an article, I can just start talking about it.
Speaker 3:Where does that lead? Does it lead to the conversation we had last week of? Like, the, or you know, the, the third place is yes, right yeah, coming back around right. Oh, it went out of style and like we leaned into this digital, does it lean to?
Speaker 2:suddenly people are like I need to I think a big outcome is that these digital places are, for a lot of people, a third place, because they watch a creator who you know is a raw nerve maybe, or they have interactions with them through messaging or live streams or a discord server or whatever, and I'm not saying that that's a bad does it lead to a resurgence though, of like that sifted, like that springsteen-esque?
Speaker 3:I mean, maybe I need to scale it back a little bit.
Speaker 1:Obviously springsteen's an anomaly sure it's like one of those.
Speaker 3:Yeah, an outlier, he's an outlier um, but right now you have a lot of people who I think, like my art is just yeah. Does it lead to a resurgence of that more crafted if we continue to play this out, or does it just eat itself? I hope so.
Speaker 2:I hope it does. I hope people go. Okay, I see what she's doing, I see what he's doing and the stuff that they're sharing, and I'm missing something. There's something that isn't there for me, or I don't necessarily think that's the best way to communicate those things. So I have an idea, an inspiration for how I think it should be done. I'm going to make this painting, I'm going to write this poetry, I'm going to make this short film, whatever, and they take from what they consumed and craft something new.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of that stuff. The first thing that pops in my head and saying that was I remember watching and researching a bunch of stuff for a screenplay the you know, the grunge movement and Kurt Cobain and and on all that and him, them talking about, like the hair bands, you know the glam rockers you know wearing, you know women's makeup and tight clothes and the spectacle of it all and all that, and they're like you know that's bullshit. Yeah, I was just watching the hypnosis documentary, which was really good, about a design firm that came out of um, uh, the UK called hypnosis H I, p G N O S I? S and they designed all the most iconic album covers from the sixties and seventies and the punk movement.
Speaker 3:Awesome name for a design firm, by the way, unbelievable, unbelievables. And the punk movement.
Speaker 2:awesome name for a design firm, by the way, unbelievable, unbelievable and the punk movement saw a lot of what they made for pink floyd and led zeppelin, the most iconic album covers, you know, 10 cc, all these bands, and they went that's all bullshit and they did things their way. Yeah, so I think you know, even though you could argue that the album covers they made are works of art in and of themselves, whether the, the band, had the idea and then the agency kind of everything, rebels against what?
Speaker 3:yeah, exactly it's all.
Speaker 2:It is that and I think the sharing and the like, I can just press record and share my feelings.
Speaker 3:We already see it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's, that's a reaction to inauthentic bullshit, content or art or whatever and like well, what's more authentic than me?
Speaker 3:We really are just a ball bouncing between two walls. Yeah, it is. It's just going to go right back. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it is for me too. I think there's definitely times where maybe an instinct is to you know, jump on, jump on. Uh, you know the camera and just start talking about how I feel. Um, and I talk to you, I watch things, I I hear the negative side of that, or I don't like when I take a step back going, you wanting to just share that immediately. In that instance it is ego or it is vanity, it is something that's it's not a good place to, to to, to send it from, and I start going like the video I'm making right now Well, how do I combine these things? How do I still talk about how I feel, but do it in a way where you're translating it a little bit more into imagery or a vibe or music, or you know, a combination of all of it, so that it's a bit more of an experience pulling in different parts of the human experience that's right, yeah, and and tools of visual storytelling, or, you know, a short film or narrative documentary, whatever you know, I think of the.
Speaker 2:Was it Bo Burnham?
Speaker 3:The comedian.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm like raw nerve, but art.
Speaker 2:It's this fascinating combination of both where he's documenting his experience in this home during the lockdown. But then he's making work out of it and we're seeing that process. We're seeing the raw nerve, but we're also seeing how you translate that raw nerve into work out of it and we're seeing that process. We're seeing the raw nerve, but we're also seeing how you translate that raw nerve into a, into a piece of work. That's interesting to me. Yeah, yeah, and you know, to a certain extent it's the. This documentary you're seeing the musicians and Bruce is like nah, we got to go to a G major there and you know shitty or anything, but he's just you're watching.
Speaker 3:You're watching the sausage get made. It's punk music, I mean. Springsteen is a little bit more refined, sure, and I think there's always something there for craft like yeah, but even raw nerve is like like we've had moments of raw nerve I just feel like this and maybe this is just you know me being blind to the to the moment. That's very, very possible and it's likely to be honest, but it does feel like we're getting just a very unthoughtful version of raw nerve.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And there's also, like you know, with with how connected everything is.
Speaker 3:There's a very like group thinky raw nerve, where the raw nerve is just a recitation of something I've heard from a hundred other people and people think that they're feeling these unique feelings but they really actually are just playing telephone on Tik TOK, right In a way, like they're feeling emotions that they've almost been programmed to feel Right. Um, for lack of a better term, cause like I think of like the punk movement, it's like raw nerve like punk music, it just like anger into a microphone music. Maybe there's not like a lot of musicality to it. You listen to some punk music now and you're just like, okay, like I get it, like it's, it's amazing, and like I'm not, I'm not shitting on punk, I I'm. I love, you know that, that genre, but there's definitely things where you listen to it in maybe a more sober state and you're like you're like, okay, this is a you know that, that genre.
Speaker 3:but there's definitely things where you listen to it in maybe a more sober state and you're like you're like, okay, this is a you know, little melodramatic Melodrama is a good example, Plenty of melodramas like that I love.
Speaker 3:I think of like a Douglas Sirk film or something, and hyper melodramatic, but um, it's getting at something, so true that whenever you buy into it, whenever you choose not to see it in a completely sober mind, you're like floored by it. Have you ever heard of Lil Peep? So he was like a. I guess he's technically a rapper, but he was like punk rap.
Speaker 3:I'll play it for you after. But the music, you listen to it and if you're listening to it from an intellectual or a craft standpoint it's not bad. But you're like, okay, this is very teenage, melodramatic, but when you buy into it you kind of transcend into a plane of existence, to where it is something a little greater. But right now I do feel like a lot of the and maybe this is just it's, maybe it's always been this way for the mass, for like the bulk.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It just feels very unthoughtful.
Speaker 2:Well, the concern with me is is that it's sort of two columns, like someone might be like, well, I'm feeling, you know, raw, and I have feelings that I want to communicate, but there's still a part of their brain that's operating through a commercial filter, like, oh well, but I can, you know, I can, I can monetize this, I can get this, I can get this a record deal, I can get um in front of people, I can sell tickets, you know, like there's there, there, there, there can sometimes be, uh, high function, a high brain functioning toward, um, some, you know, commercial or or or or profit motive, you know, versus you think it's dumbed down any for any reason because of, like you, you talk about profit motive and my, my brain goes to algorithmic.
Speaker 3:Maybe that's just cause that's what we talked about a little bit prior, but it the profit motive being more driven by a machinery like we do this. We say this, this gets said that's right yeah, this it's we're this is the result we'll get right like because I mean it's literally elaborate, right, yeah, and to me it's like this is the water, this is the cocaine.
Speaker 2:I want the cocaine that's right and to me know, like when I looked at that hypnosis documentary and they touched on, you know, punk movement.
Speaker 3:God it's such a great name. It's so good you got to watch it.
Speaker 2:It's a good documentary. But the punk movement, like yeah, it just you know, and again I don't know for sure, but I think about some of those bands coming out, I'm like they don't give a fuck about any of the commerce aspect, you know, like they're not sitting there going. You know, obviously it comes into it. You know a record label or whatever, and they certainly get involved. They want to sell tickets, they need to make money, but it's just such a it just felt raw in its totality. Um, and I'm not saying that there aren't people putting stuff out there, whether it's pressing record on a camera and just talking about how they feel, or crying, or yelling or whatever I can do that, and they can just strike some universe out like universal nerve.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they just touch on something that is irrefutable.
Speaker 3:That's exactly right it almost does back my point up that maybe I am just getting caught up in the bulk, maybe I am getting caught up in the noise, but there is still signal out there.
Speaker 2:And sometimes I think, there are people that see that, oh, other people got successful talking about their feelings, so I'm just going to man remanufacture that with me doing, doing what they're doing.
Speaker 3:And you're doing it though, you, but you're literally just it's memetic.
Speaker 2:That's right, You're, you're, you're it's a, it's a function, it's a photoc and you know, um, you know bruce certainly has, like you know, he talks about it in the documentary. He's like you've got one side of a 45, you got, you've got, uh, what is it? 180 seconds? Yeah, you know, like there's a container there, like there's a form there, imposed limitation, imposed limitation, and like you've gotta, you know. And then there's also you know he doesn't talk about the structure of a song, but you know there's things you can't mess with too much, you know. First chorus, first chorus, bridge. You know what I mean. Like you're gonna, you're gonna, you can play around with that to a certain degree, but you don't have a lot of latitude right yeah, yeah and some people push it.
Speaker 2:You know bohemian rhapsody. Obviously all the commercial people are like what? You're gonna have a seven minute song on the radio, get the fuck out of here.
Speaker 3:And it's like one of the most successful songs of all time right, so um you know, and it's all over the place. Bruce has had some crazy long ones too, though sure you know one song that he has.
Speaker 2:I've mentioned it earlier I'm on fire, I'm like bruce, it's not long enough like it's too short, like let's double the length, please give me more um.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I I think the again just circle back to the initial thought. The big takeaway for me is okay, my, how I feel every day isn't weird and not wrong, but just sort of like I don't know. There's there's a tremendous sense of validation in in hearing him say it. Now it's my job to what I do with that feeling, to bring it up to a level of a care and craft and not necessarily the final result is as good as a Bruce Springsteen song but that I'm also deploying strong understanding of taste and craft and understanding of what the audience is going to experience to a certain extent with consuming it. You can't just sort of and this is my kryptonite in the making process is I'm so connected to the feelings of why I want to make it that I lose some sense of objectivity to go? Is this the right thing to do right here or is this overall the best way to communicate this thing that I'm feeling? You know, someone might watch what I make or read what I wrote.
Speaker 3:Do you ever change based on that? I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean yeah, I mean I. I certainly. The problem is is think it, make, think it. I got to do the order right. Think it, feel it. Think it, make, think it. I gotta do the order right. Think it, feel it, make it, send it. Make it send it. I can just blow past that part where it's like just take a goddamn second and just ask yourself is this part necessary? Is that music choice the right one? Is that beat really communicating? Does it feel toned?
Speaker 3:Is it?
Speaker 2:off, is it rhythmically, you know what?
Speaker 3:I mean, you're almost working against it. At that point, though, right, you're like you're trying to grasp it and it becomes ungraspable just because you're trying to grasp it.
Speaker 2:Well, the problem is is the feeling is so strong that you don't want that flame to burn out before you hit send? It's like that feeling is so strong, you want to get to the sharing part so quickly that you you bypass the craft yeah. And sometimes for me like, well, I'm not feeling enough right now, so so, so, so I need to stop making it.
Speaker 3:I think you just hit on one of the biggest. I got away from the microphone.
Speaker 3:I think you just hit on one of the biggest I would, would I? For me it's like a fear, but also I think it's it's a deficiency in the current yeah culture of making work or making anything is that that feeling is so strong and that doesn't seem to align with the process of making something that's, you know, universe or that stands the test of time, it's universal, it's it's a bit more nuanced, it's a bit more thoughtful. Yeah, I think we, we run into this wall of no, no, no. It's going to lose all of its charge if I don't send it right now.
Speaker 3:And so we send it right now, thinking, oh, this thing, I need to get it out there while it still has charge to it. But then by doing that you're shortening its lifespan almost exponentially A hundred percent shortening its lifespan almost exponentially.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent and in the past I think and correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like there were more. There were more I don't want to say obstacles, but things that could slow you down, yeah, in that transfer of feeling to communication, because there were gatekeepers and it wasn't easy to share this stuff. If you wrote a book, made a film, whatever. When you wrote a book, made a film, whatever.
Speaker 3:When you had to be at a certain level of competency. So you have to work through, you know, translating feeling into, I mean to get share with the public. Yeah, you would do work through that enough to where you had a certain level of competence. Like Bruce had to learn how to play guitar, you had to learn how to play guitar. He had to learn how to structure a song, he had to learn how to write a song he had to learn about Perform live.
Speaker 2:He had to fail. He had to have somebody a record label, whatever say no, no, sorry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but that's a natural. You're naturally putting a time constraint. You're going to have to like everybody has to go through this process. It's going to take you three or four years that you're going to have to, like everybody has to go through this process. It's going to take you three or four years. That's right. Imagine how much you've you. You grow in an art form in three to four years.
Speaker 3:If you're doing like and you've got to keep doing it because you're continuing to strive for it, You're continuing to go after it. You're just getting better and better and better and better and better. Time is is what has to take place, and now it's. There is no time, I'll just self publish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, self publish, send it.
Speaker 3:I'll just get it out there, I'll put it on YouTube, I'll put it on whatever, and then you're locking yourself in. You're not like, ah man, that didn't work. I need to iterate. Okay, I need to go over and try this again. To whatever that first instinct was, which is probably a bit amateurish, and not because of anything you know, just because you didn't know.
Speaker 2:You didn't know better, yeah.
Speaker 3:Think about like the first screenplay you wrote.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I remember it in detail.
Speaker 3:It's probably the best thing that you thought you'd ever written. Oh God, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean just the sheer act of finishing. It was like warranted.
Speaker 3:What do you think about it? Now, you know it does.
Speaker 2:I think what everybody does like all really interesting little bits here and there, but you know, um, yeah, you know, like all kinds of issues. Uh, even the 15th screenplay, I still look at it and go.
Speaker 2:it's better, but yeah you've got some real problems here. Would you write it? I? Just to remember gatekeepers and ease of sharing that process of feeling to communication. Now the issue with gatekeepers for me is you don't want to iterate on what you make to satisfy a gatekeeper for some kind of professional or commercial end, right, well, I want to get published. While that's great, you don't want to sacrifice your truth and how you're feeling and why you're making what you're making.
Speaker 3:Well, I wouldn't really do that, but I know the gatekeeper picks up on that. But there is something to be said for standard of quality. Sure, I think you had a lot of people. My mind goes to writers. Yeah, um, but you know they have to work their voice up to a standard of quality. Yes, lost this one, lost that, oh no we're down to the wide buddy.
Speaker 2:How should we? Uh, yeah, I know, how should we?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know how should we wrap this up man, this burned bright, and it burned fast.
Speaker 2:It did Came in hot.
Speaker 1:It had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with the summer. Thank you you.
