Episode 8: The Power of Relationships

If you learn nothing else about Minnesota state government, learn this: Relationships, relationships, relationships! Guests: John Apitz and Henry Jimenez 

0:00 Introductions
4:16 How did your relationship with the Capitol start? 
7:50 Over the length of your work, how have you stayed engaged? 
14:43 Throughout your career, how have you come to understand how important relationships are to the work that you do?
26:40 In your respective roles, where do you see the potential for access becoming more equitable? Is the culture shifting? 
35:17 How have you learned to be more effective? Are you getting better at the work? 
46:48 Information is power. Where do you get your information? How do you learn?51:04 Any words of advice you’ wish you’d gotten in the beginning?

Transcript

 [show music]

Alan Berks

Welcome to Our House, a podcast that pulls back the curtain on Minnesota State government. I’m Alan Berks.

Leah Cooper

And I’m Leah Cooper. We’re the co-artistic directors of a theater company called Wonderlust Productions. In the process of putting together an original show about life at the state capitol, we learned that Minnesota government is very much like theater.

Alan Berks

We’ve been trying to get behind the scenes to find out how government really operates. Once you start looking past the performance, what do you find?

Leah Cooper

We found relationships.

SONG:

Relationships.

They take years to build and seconds to destroy. [Relationships]

Build relationships and work it. [Relationships.]

Alan Berks

Relationships are key. There are 201 legislators and around 50,000 government employees around the state, but there are many more people who are advocating, influencing, strategizing, and lobbying.

Leah Cooper

I always thought lobbyists were a bad thing, but we were surprised to learn that’s not the case.

Alan Berks

 Lobbyists are as good or bad as the interests they represent. The teachers union has a lobbyist. Nurses. Even the arts community has a lobbyist. 

 TOUR GUIDE

Here’s how you know when you’re talking to a lobbyist. First. They have better shoes than anyone else, even the legislators. Better clothes. They get paid better, and they want to be memorable. Subtly so.

 OSCAR

Also, they smile a lot but have no sense of humor because they can’t afford to offend anyone.

I don’t think you can trust them.

 LOBBYIST

People demonize us but 

 LOBBYIST CHORUS

We tell you all about our agenda up front.

We also tell you all the other sides.

We build relationships with decision makers.

That’s where our success abides.

 LOBBYIST

Sheila, people try to convince legislators to vote one way. We try to convince them too.

Alan Berks

 The thing to know about lobbyists is that they know a lot. Like A lot. Their success is built on being knowledgeable and, surprisingly, trust-worthy.

 LOBBYIST

All I have is my reputation. A legislator has to know that I’ll never lie to him. Or her. I’ll never put anyone I have a relationship with in a position that will embarrass them.

 LOBBYIST CHORUS

I know a lot of facts about my clients' concerns. 

Relationships.

Take time to get to know. Don’t judge before you learn.

Relationships.

They take years to build and seconds to destroy. [Relationships]

Build relationships and work it. [Relationships.]  

Leah Cooper

Basically, lobbyists are experts at building relationships.

Alan Berks

And relationships are key to a lot of what happens behind the scenes. 

Leah Cooper

Our guest John Apitz has been a professional lobbyist for various interests for nearly 40 years.

Alan Berks

And our other guest is Henry Jimeniz. When we first met him in 2016, he was the head of the Minnesota Council on Latino Affairs. Minnesota has four ethnic councils that operate a lot like lobbyists - advocating for the interests of their communities, except ethnic councils are state agencies. Henry is now the Executive Director of the Latino Economic Development Center where he continues advocating for Latino communities.

Leah Cooper

John and Henry are exceptional at building meaningful relationships,  willing to put in the time and effort over years to do so. They even talk about the benefit of connecting with people who seem lost while they wander around the capitol. Because that tourist or activist might someday become a legislator.

Alan Berks 

Their relationships with the capitol started in very different ways, but you’ll hear that they  find a lot of common ground.

John Apitz 

My first exposure to the state government to the legislature came in 199 - 1985, when I just finished a campaign for a federal candidate, and I was out of work, and a friend of mine came to me and said, you know, the Commissioner of commerce is looking for an administrator or looking for an assistant, you should go see that particular individual, which I did, I got hired. And he said, and now you're going to be a lobbyist. And I said, What's a lobbyist? And he said, Well, you go to the legislature, and you do tell them stuff. And then then they do it. And I was like, Well, that sounds easy. Why? Why would anybody thinks that that would be a difficult task. And so I went to the legislature, and I was absolutely confounded by everything and anything that was going on up there. Why were these people getting together in these meetings? And why were they taking votes? And why were they? Why were they? Why were they pulling things out of their pocket from occasion when they were in a conference committee? It was all very confusing. And it took a number of years to really figure out what that whole process was about. But it was confounding at first.

Leah Cooper

How about you, Henry?

Henry Jimenez  

I would say that my first experiences were not paid experiences, you know, and so that's why, you know, I kind of joke around and say, I've been in politics or in the legislative process, since like, you know, since I can remember, either at a local government, or, you know, immigration reform or just advocating for what I thought was necessary, but I think that the first time that I, I guess technically didn't get paid, but I was an intern, working for Senator Harry Reid in Washington DC. And so that was one of my first experiences at the federal level, and then when I moved to Minnesota, had different jobs, but eventually in  2016 or so I was able to get the job at Minnesota Council on Latino Affairs, and I was the executive director there and refocus the attention of the councils to just do exactly what the mandate states, you know, which is to advise and inform the governor's office and state legislature on matters of importance to our community. And I thought, wow, like, that's what I've been doing all my life, I get, I get paid for this now. That's amazing. What wasn't so amazing was obviously that we hadn't necessarily established the relationships necessary to move any type of legislation, right. And so here's a, you know, an office that's meant to do that. But just because the legislature created something doesn't mean, they're going to listen to it, right. And so my first experience was, okay, now we have this office, that's been around for a few decades. But now, I want to make it relevant to where folks like the legislature and the governor's office is really listening to our advice. So I was kind of, I already knew to expect that, you know, from a person that I knew that the office existed, but knew that there was still so much more than it could be doing. And so I came with this sense of urgency to establish those relationships that we needed to in order to move any type of legislation forward.

John Apitz  

Which governor was that that you came in under?

Henry Jimenez

Dayton.

John Apitz. 

Dayton, okay.

Henry Jimenez  

I always like to say that my first victory was convincing both Democrats and Republicans to appoint me as the the executive director of the Council. 

John Apitz 

True, you would have had the Republicans running the legislature and the Democratic governor. 

Henry Jimenez

Corrent

John Apitz 

Fascinating.

Leah Cooper 

So you both talked about showing up with certain expectations and then confronting reality. Right. And I'm curious, you know, there's a line in the play that says, sometimes you have to get numb to the reality. Because it's hard, right? And I am curious, over the length of your work, bumping up against things that are confounding bumping up against relationships that are difficult to build. How have you stayed engaged?

John Apitz  

I, you know, I was thinking about this question. And I think there's a certain set of qualities that a person has to have to do this business. People, I think people generally have the wrong impression about what lobbyists are and why we, why we do what we do. And so you overcome that hurdle in the first place, but it's, it's it's literally hard, hard work. It involves a lot of it involves a lot of sacrifice. I'm just thinking about the times I didn't go to a baseball game for my kid, because I was sitting in the conference committee numbed out, to your question, numbed out listening to the endless references to things that weren't on that specific little point that I was concerned about. It's long, long, long hours, it's day and night. It's its highlights, its exaggerations, its enthusiasm, its depression and devastation. And it can happen all in a 24 hour period. And it takes a very, I think, unique character to be able to do this. I've met, numbers of people who say, I don't know how you can possibly do that. I couldn't possibly do that. And you know what, I used to think that was sort of a backhanded compliment. I don't think it is. I think it's really the truth. It takes a very unique person who learns to love doing this and learns to love the interaction or has that in their, forgive me, in their soul in the first place. That keeps them at this, regardless of the cost, and regardless of how arduous it might be. Because there's a lot of adrenaline in it, there's a lot of enthusiasm when you're able to accomplish something, whether it's a goal for one client or a goal for a certain segment of the population.

Butit takes a certain kind of person to be able to do this work, who's willing to put in the time the effort and, and find it exciting and interesting, and believe that there's a reason for doing it. That has an outcome, you would know that even better than I.

Henry Jimenez  

That's very well said John, I think, even as you say that, and I'm embarrassed to say this, but like, you know, being in the delivery room with my wife, on March 5. March is probably one of the worst times for anyone doing this type of the work probably one of the worst times for anybody doing this type of work. And yet, I'm there and thinking I have to type away, I got to get this, you know, agenda prepared for this legislator, because I know that if I don't get it done, it could impact my other bills. And, maneuvering I felt like it's like Tetris. Right. playing Tetris with people's emotions, you know, and relationships. I think it actually like everything in life, there's multiple types of people that can be successful in this. And I think John just mentioned several that can be, you have to be numb. There's other folks that are very successful, who are not numb. And those are the folks that, and I actually think you might be in that realm, too, John, because you brought up your your son, like missing your son. So I don't think you actually were fully numb, being in that room. But I think it's somebody that understands how to like humanize everything that is being done. Even if it feels like the legislative bill that they're addressing is not human itself, right. It's like, okay, understanding why maybe your client needs this to happen, and what's the human aspect to that, and I think that's why you keep showing up and having 12 hour days or longer, because at the end of the day, you understand that it's going to impact your client this way. And your client has 1200 employees, and those 1200 employees, they all live in Minnesota, right. So to me, like, I think that the best lobbies all have a human aspect to anything that they're doing, regardless of maybe the general population, the rest of Minnesota might think, Wow, I can't believe we're doing this for this, like Corporation. But at the same time that lobbyists might be saying, Oh, my gosh, I just got this tax break that's going to allow these, meatpacking companies to stay in Minnesota and 1600 folks that will keep a job, right? I always try to think about it that way. Because I'm gonna have to work with this individual that has frustrated me for voting the way that I don't want them to vote, and it doesn't look like they're ever going to vote the way I want them to. But what if they do that one time. And those one times have started to happen. It took me 10/12 years to finally start seeing some of these legislators start voting the direction that I thought I wanted them to 12 years ago. Driver's license for all is one of that example, right now. While it's still very divided, I can tell you that some of the folks on the minority now are making some points that were being made 12 years ago, and they might be 12 years behind. But I hope that their kids are not 12 years behind. And so I think that that's the part that I don't like, it’s humanizing people, not numbing. 

John Apitz  

That's really, really true. If you lose track of the human aspect of any of this then you become numb. That's when you get to get to be numb. If you remember that there's a human aspect between every road that's taken every issue that's up there. It can sustain you through the long run. I'm gonna just take a sidebar, Rod Hamilton? 

Henry Jimenez

Yeah.

John Apitz

 Yeah, exactly. Rod Hamilton's this legislator from down in Southwest Minnesota, who took up this cause of driver's license for all. And just understood the immigrant community down there in mountain mountain mountain mount. Mountain Lake he was from. And nobody else in the Republican, he was Republican. And I mean, he was fairly conservative Republican, but he had this just amazing understanding of the folks in his district. And I -

Henry Jimenez 

But, John, like you've probably been in rooms with folks where you're like, Wow, I can't believe this, like so and so clearly supports this, but is not gonna vote for it. And in fact, they'll tell you like, hey, you know, I just can't ]can't do it. Hope you understand. But man, do I love my neighbor, and they would benefit from this, like, I've had numerous, numerous conversations with with several, you know, Republican legislators that I would say are more likely to have supported this, if the circumstances would have been different than they are. And they've changed so much in the last couple of years. But I think that there was moments in time that some of them would have done this six, six years ago, or earlier. 

Leah Cooper  

You both mentioned relationships already. And that is the central theme of this episode. And I am curious, when in your career, did you fully understand the depths to which relationships were key to the work that you do? Did you understand it right from the get go? Or was this sort of a slow build?

Henry Jimenez  

I think I can't give you an example of when that like clicked in my mind, but I think I always felt that I always wanted to make sure that people were treated the way I wanted my parents to be treated. And so I think that, if I always say like, I like love to start a relationship with love. It's really hard to hate somebody that loves you. It's really easy to hate somebody that already hates you. So if I, if you start a relationship with like, and trust me, legislators say, I'm voting no. So don't waste your time. And I'm like, What can I just get - Like, I just want to get to know you. Can I come to your district? Yeah, yeah. You know, talk to my LA on a Friday or, or come up to my district after session, right? And then I would take No, I'm like, Alright, he said, I'm come up to his district. And then I intentionally went to dozens of districts across the state, to make it a point that I'm like, Hey, I just want to get to build a relationship. And they've said the same things. Look, I understand what you're trying to do. But it's that's just not what I can support right now. And I’m like, that's fine. I just want to continue to build a relationship and want to tell you what our agency does. I want you to know that I'm here. My job is actually to provide you information. So whenever you're on the floor, and you think like, Hey, did my colleague just say that? Like, I need to know if that is true? Text me, call me. Here you go. And the first year to two, the folks in the minority, whoever they were, they would text me and like, hey, is this, can you can you give me some talking points about this? And I would make it a point. Here's a couple of talking points around this. My victories weren't legislative victories the first several sessions, my victories were, hey, my words are being said by both Republican and Democrats on the floor of the Senate and the House. And then it became like, hey, you know what, I need to call Henry about this bill. Hey, I'm gonna submit an amendment to this. What do you think about this, Henry? And then I would say, yeah, actually, that makes sense. Then, then my first victories were amendments to naming things that were like nobody cared about right. Now I'm starting to see things that is impacting my community. And now I'm seeing my own words and statute that benefit small business owners that I support through my current work now. But it took 10,12 years to have even developed these relationships with legislators who might not have even been legislators at the time. I remember meeting with folks that they would be coming and hey, what do you need? Oh, I don't even know how to do this. And I won't name folks here. But I can tell you that it's the most diverse legislative body now. And many of those folks I met when they were walking the halls for the first time and some lobbyists who might have taken the time to say, hey, yeah, let me help you. These folks remember them now. And I can tell you for once in my life, I can't believe that some of these chairs of committee who weren't even legislators, remember who took some time to support them, not with money, but with understanding how this process worked. And I happened to be one of those people that they trust.

John Apitz 

I mentioned that it was overwhelming at first. And so it took me a while to really understand what it was that that motivates people who have election certificates. And again, it goes back to what Henry said about the humaneness of, of the, of what we do, and what the what the work is all about. But at first, I was kind of just overwhelmed by the whole process. And it is an overwhelming process. And if people get to understand why it's there and appreciate why there are amendments and amendments, but you can't have an amendment to an amendment to an amendment, you can only have an amendment to an amendment. Why that is, it's helpful in doing the rest of it. So getting, it took me a while to get my groundings at first. And then after a while, I realized that getting in to talk to somebody, getting into getting into see somebody was all about talking to somebody else. It was like talking to the legislative assistant first. And the legislative assistant had as much power as the legislator did, for your purposes, for you to get in or not get in the door. And respecting that person and learning how to build and maintain a relationship with those people that a lot of people overlook how important that became. And that was sort of the first humanizing piece of my education or my education about the humanization of this whole process, understanding that people who are out of sight understanding that people who are considered just, you know, workers are farm far more important, oftentimes, at least as important, sometimes even more important than the folks you are trying to get in to see in the folks who are trying to have the conversation with. So it took me a long time to come to understand the humaneness of this process, and how each of the people involved in it has a human nature to them that you just have to respect and if you do, you win. And if you don't, it's a tough slog, it's a very tough slog, and oftentimes you don't win. I don't know if that was the answer to your question, but

Henry Jimenez  

John, I actually, If I may I actually think like, you know, that was one of those. And I guess, I guess, again, my nature of talking to everybody, right, but that's something that no one ever told me. It's like, oh, by the way, build relationships with the legislative assistants and the CAs. And legislative assistants become CAs and CAs are really the brain of the operations. 

Leah Cooper

What’s a CA? Can you clarify?

Henry Jimenez

Committee administrator. And so, you know, if one of the legislators is the chair of a committee, then the committee administrator really is the one that you know, they're like the COO of the committee, they run everything from the schedule from what bills get heard, obviously, with the with the okay of the legislator, but sometimes, the CAs are so good, they just kind of run their thing. You know.

John Apitz 

People don't realize how how much the staff runs that place, there's really- They're there to serve the people who have the elections certificates. But these folks come in with just limited amounts of understanding of the world of the world of the legislature and the staff is so critically important to making any of that stuff up their function. That if you get if you know that and if you build relationships with those people, you can know a great deal of distance in any, on any particular cause. And if you don't know that, you can, you can just fail from from the get go by not appreciating who it is that really makes the place work.

Henry Jimenez 

I think that was one of my advantages is because I was the state employee, you know, and they they're also staff, you know, especially on a Friday, but most legislators are back in the district, but their LA and CAs, they're still in their office. And so I remember, you know, walking around and just introducing myself to them and say, Hey, if we can help you with anything. Or I would take notes. If a legislator said, you know, I'm gonna look this up, and then, you know, I want an answer about this. And I'm thinking, You know what, I'm gonna get ahead of it and then I will look things up and then just tell the legislative assistant like, just, you know, your legislator asked this question, here's the answer to that. And sometimes they would say, you know, most of the time, they'd be like, Okay, this is a weird guy, whatever. Some of them would be like, Oh, wow, that I was just I was just looking this up and I couldn't find this information or like I was just about to look it up, but you just helped me. Thank you. How do I get ahold of you? Well, I work for the state. And so then I just developed like this network of relationships. And I could tell you that the first the first session, if I got lucky to meet a legislator for 15 minutes, I was lucky. And I hate it. No disrespect, John -

John Apitz

Totally get it.

Henry Jimenez

But having the lobbyists who had a long term relationship with folks, I'm waiting 2, 3 weeks, I finally get my 15 minutes. And then it's like, [knock, knock] hey, just saying hi. Oh, hey, John, come right in. And I'm like, dude, like, I get 15 minutes. And you you're just walking in, and you're signing his thing without reading his yellow or green jackets without reading them, which is what you need to do when you author a bill, you know, and I'm here trying to, like, convince the person about what I think is a simple, straightforward legislative bill that I would love for them to consider. And I was just thinking, like, Man, I, this is gonna be a long year for me, but building relationships with the LA's and CAs, then then it was like, every time I will show up, I'm like, any chance I can just walk home to committee? And that's the thing that they would say, Look, his book, but you know, why don't you come, he's going to have lunch at, like, if you wait for him after, you know, caucus, he'll be right there and walk them back at that point. But he really doesn't have time, you know, but that was all I needed. I just needed to know. Okay, well, where are they going to be? What can I like, I just need that those five minutes. And those relationships then became, hey, Henry, you know, this legislator wants to talk about this bill. And I remember you bringing this info to me, would you come to this meeting. And then now I would be in meetings with folks were like, they're drafting this bill, you know, and then it was like in develop, and that was the relationships that took years, you know. And so when I think of these new folks that are coming in, I love seeing new people that are learning to do this. But it can be demoralizing when you're like, I don't, I don't get it like I'm here every day. And John just kind of walked in and walked out. And he's on the spreadsheet. John got like his clients stuff on his spreadsheet, like, the first two years John, I, like I don't, I don't like to use the word hate. But I was, I think I was borderline jealous and hate that I spent as long hours as everybody else and got zero results. But what I've seen is that those long hours have now paid off, because I'm seeing those results again, 10 - 12 years later.

John Apitz 

The intensity of what we do, the intensity of that cauldron. exaggerates relationships, it exaggerates the goodness and the bad elements in them. And again, back to being respectful of one another. It gets recognized if you are respectful, and if you're not it gets recognized. But it's such an intense environment that and that's why I should the question, did you recall some of those people I recall, when I was in the Attorney General's office, I was a lobbyist for the attorney general. And I was one night, you know, it was eight, nine o'clock at night, whatever it was, and in walks this, this icon of a lobbyist scatter them Ross Kramer, who I subsequently went to went to work with, and he sat down and he was just exhausted. And he was, you know, we just visited briefly for a little while. And I was awestruck that this fellow walked in and sat down to have a chat with me. Because this is this is by anybody's measure. This is an icon, this is a this is a God in our business. And he sat down and he visited and he was just like this conversation that we're having right now. And that stuck with me till the day I retired. That that's, that's part of what makes it work well. And it's part of what makes it work poorly. If if that piece is not respected 

Leah Cooper  

You’ve both touched alot on the power of relationships, but the power of information, the power of understanding the culture, the power of knowing the unspoken rules. And you know, to name an elephant in the room that's often not named as different people have different access to that kind of power. In your own careers, you started in a paid role and you started an unpaid role. This is a different kind of access, right? And then there's the reality that people that are like us are more likely to help us sometimes. So I'm curious in your in your own role, where do you see the potential for access changing for equitable access? evolving? You're describing politeness and generosity and some folks, and then it kind of ruthlessness in some other folks. And I guess I wonder, you know, what do you see happening right now at the Capitol, in what is now one of our most diverse legislatures in history? Do you think the culture is shifting towards more generosity and access or away from it? Or is it more complicated than that?

John Apitz  

Interesting question.

Henry Jimenez 

Really good question.

John Apitz 

I think it's become more let me see if I get this right. How is it changing? Access has become in many ways, access has become more power dependent, power dependent based on money, power dependent based on influence and constituencies, power dependent based on both of those go into potentially get reelected. And I think it's unless you have unless you have some of that to barter with unless you have a lot of it to barter with your position in terms of being able to get things done. On is can be curtailed. I mean, there's a lot of money at the Minnesota Legislature today that never existed before, when you have a million dollar Senate race, I mean, a million dollar Senate race. And that's not unusual anymore. That implies that there's there's a lot of money that moves around and money's power just blatantly. So. It has a lot of influence. I think that is part of what the future is gonna look like. Unfortunately, I think and also constituencies, I think Henry can probably speak to this a whole lot better than I can constituencies become so so important. In terms of, can I get elected, if I work with this particular constituency? It can I get reelected, if I work with this particular constituency. And I think that's become more apparent, is sort of popular interest groups. Grow and gather, gather steam.

Henry Jimenez  

Yes, I love to see that it's becoming more reflective of the makeup of Minnesota, which is diversifying as we speak. And I appreciate that I can talk to legislators, you mentioned when they came in, you said, Hey, can I get a hug? Right? I don't think I've been greeted with so many hugs at the legislature as I did this session. In January, I remember, okay, there's all these legislators I've met. Many of them very diverse, you know, Hmong, Latina, African American, black, you know,and I can tell you almost every single one, Henry, hey, hug, I'm like, oh, like, this is like, this is different. Instead of just like, you know, an LA saying, Hey, this is Henry Gimenez, or whatever they would call me. And they're, like, God, just have a seat. And, and I would be extending my arm across the table. Right. It was the opposite, greeted with hugs. But I think that the part that I am, want to make sure that we don't miss here. And I think this is what you were saying, John, the power structures are still very much the antiquated, same powers, right, with a lot more money at stake now. I see us as, you know, legislators are vehicles, right. So you have all these new vehicles and vehicles that reflect our community. But we're still doing, we're still operating on a one lane highway, there's still only one lane, all these cars still need to go through one lane. And who has the access to that one lane? That's really, unfortunately, what like, maybe makes all of us frustrated, because that's how politics works, not just in Minnesota, but in every aspect of our country. It's still very, very controlled.

John Apitz 

And you mean, it's controlled by by the leadership?

Henry Jimenez  

Leadership? I find it interesting to talk about democracy, you know at the end of the day, it comes down to those last couple hours. And these final deals that sometimes don't even make sense, because instead of like, incorporating all these testimonies and ideas and all these legislators, it comes down to this conferees and then it comes down to leadership, making decisions, and they're like, Okay, well, we need to make this thing add up now. So let's eliminate this for no reason at all. And that's when you know, the winners get fixed by the relationships you have with those final. Like, I don't know, John, would you say there's really like 10 people that control it. If that. 10 People that control the future of Minnesota, and they'll have til May, they have about a month. But they're all going to make that final decision in the last two days. I like that they've been passing some major bills, you know, ahead of time, and not putting it all at the end. But when you have division, and you're trying to figure it out and trying to come up with deals, you come up with some everybody says you're better off when there's like differences, but I think you're better off when there's differences and everybody is like awake, not have differences. And it's like here's the deal at three in the morning.

John Apitz  

At 3 o'clock in the morning. That was the most probably frustrating part of what each of us has done over the years. The, the tendency, your question, it kind of goes to your question about Access relationships. The tendency over the last 20 years that I've been around, is to narrow that funnel, the funnel, where the final decisions get made. And maybe it's just my education, as I've seen this over time. But I do think that the funnel has narrowed. So that we all know that it's the night before we adjourn, that the governor, the majority leader and the minority and the speaker get together and go figure out what a $52 billion bill is going to look like. 

Henry Jimenez

Thousands of pages 

John Apitz

Thousands of pages, and then they come out and announce it, you know, and we're all relieved, because we're just also wasted and all so worn out. But that's a horrible, horrible way to make, make, make laws and legislation. And it's happened because I think, in large part because we now have omnibus bills, and we have chairpersons, who can put these omnibus bills together. I had this conversation with Roger Moe, a year or so ago, I said, does it seem as though this funnel has narrowed, and that the power has been concentrated in the chairs, simply because this is now how we do it, we put all the pieces together in a single package. And then the package goes forward, I was watching a bill today that affects one of my clients. I've got a provision that's 20 lines long in the bill and  bill is 172 pages long, right. And it deals with billions of dollars. And there's one fellow with two, there's one chairperson with two staff sitting next to him, explaining what this bill is and how it's going to work. And that is going to be the outcome, that's going to be the end. It's become more and more and more concentrated. And I don't know that that's going to change. We can bemoan omnibus bills and the power of chairpersons. But Henry's right. Democracy has kind of been, democracy is we started out democratic, and we ended up autocratic, I think, in a very real sense.

Henry Jimenez 

Yeah. So we're pretending to be first of all, I'm not minimizing, I'm excited to see a diverse group of legislators, right? That represent a lot more of Minnesotans. But when you look at the process, again, narrowed down to that, the final decision making, in a way takes away from these diverse inputs to the bigger thing, obviously a lot will get through. So it's not like it's bad folks. I don't want to make it sound like it's bad. But I feel like a lot of the great stuff does get lost in this process.

John Apitz

Half of my bills

Henry Jimenez

Half of your bills. John, you’re still batting better than I am.

Leah Cooper

I want to speak to the both of you have had careers that have been in response to what you've encountered at the Capitol, I would say I'm sure it has affected choices you've made. John, you've been at the Capitol, how long doing this work?

John Apitz

40 years.

Leah Cooper 

And you keep, you keep telling me you're retired, but then you keep telling me all this work you're doing at the Capitol. So you're clearly not very good at retirement, you might be really good at lobbying, but you're not very good at retirement. But Henry, you're no longer at the Capitol, you're you're still affecting change, but from a different position. And so I want to ask you both a little bit about how your journey has been with your own work. And whether you feel like you have learned to be more effective by doing different things? Or is it just keep showing up and get better and better at it? A shorter version of this question is, are you getting better at the work?

Henry Jimenez  

I think it's both I'm getting better, and they're getting better at listening to me. People didn't listen to me before. 

John Apitz.

That’s very insightful. That's really true.

Henry Jimenez

And John, people listen to you, right? It took time for them to listen to you. I would say that I always think of the capitol as that's the the people's house, like everybody says, oh, it's the people's house, the people's house. And yet, you know, I would say that out of the couple million people who live in Minnesota, I can't remember how many I was told that, but it's I think it's like less than 100,000 people visit the Capitol. And most of them come at a time after the session is over. Most come after session is over, which tells me that a couple of 1000 people go to the Capitol when things are happening. And so I actually think that no matter what I do, and that's just the nature of me, and I can see I won't be another giant like someday I'm say I'm retired. It What are you doing at the Capitol? 100 You know, because I do believe that, that that is, you know, everybody should be at the Capitol, everybody should have a voice at the Capitol, everybody should feel like they can tell their legislator to represent them. And if they're not representative of their own representative, then they need to be at the Capitol, you know. And right now, I feel that I created all these relationships. And I think legislators saw me as like, okay, there's the state government employee, whatever. Soon as I like, became the Executive Director of the Latino Economic Development Center now representing like, small business interests and entrepreneurship. All of a sudden, like, wow, like, everybody wants to know what my input is. And it's like, on Bill form, and I'm like, what, what I should have moved a long time ago, you know, but I do think that it's like, it's a skill set that is transferable to other like, careers. If you have a legislative background or understand policymaking, and you become the CEO or Executive Director of something that you might think is non related. Everything is related, because everything is talked about, for you, or about you, without you or with you at the Capitol. I think everybody should see themselves at the Capitol and I see myself even more at the Capitol, I'm just lucky that I the resources to contract folks like, John, you know. We have a lobbying firm that does most of that for me now, but for some reason, because of this surplus I feel like I'm almost full time at the capitol too because there's so much that, you know, I need to testify for or talk to a legislator, or as I mentioned, you know, before I was the one calling, texting and emailing legislators, now I'm the one that's, you know, getting a significant amount of, you know, calls from them and say, Hey, what do you think about this or that? And then I'm like, Yes, I think you should do that. And by the way, don't forget about my bill. Right? Because I can talk to them that way.

John Apitz  

That fascinating. Over time with any, with any endeavor that you're involved with, if you learn to love it, if you learn to want to be better at it, you do get better. You just do get better. That's kind of simplistic.

Leah Cooper  

Well maybe the question for you is why do you keep doing what keeps you going?

John Apitz  

Oddly enough, it's fun. And I think Henry will speak to that as well. It's fun to be able to try to move the ball just a little bit in the court, because that's all we do. There's very few huge issues, there's 1000s of little issues. And mostly we work on little issues. There's one or two that in your career are the seminal issues that you walk away and go, Oh, that felt great. That felt good. For me, it was a public safety radio system of all the crazy things in the world. I spent 17 years and finally was able to get a set public safety radio system where everybody in public safety talked to everybody else, as opposed to nobody talking to each other, forever, put in place. And that was sort of like a hallmark of my career. Yeah, I've gotten better at it. And what Henry referenced, was the fact that people will tell you that. They'll come out and say, Alan, you're really good. What they'll say is Alan, can you explain to me and help me understand how to do - ? And can you help me figure out the answer to this problem? And that's when you know, you're getting good. When other people acknowledge the fact that you actually know what you're talking about. And they look to you for guidance and advice. There's sort of a graduation, where you're learning, and then eventually, people learn from you. That's when you know, you're developing an ability, and are developing relationships, because the other piece of this is that people trust you. That's the quintessential piece in everything that we do. If you're not trusted. It doesn't really pay to go up there. And you'll get so little bit of opportunity. As you say in the play, it takes years to build relationships and seconds to destroy them. And that's really true. And the difference in that, in those two situations is the amount of trust that people have in you, and expect of you. Because we serve a variety of different roles. We have professional relationships, we have personal relationships. And then we have these relationships where we are the messengers for other people. We carry messages back and forth between legislators, between caucuses between members of the administration. They may be blatant messages, they may be subtle messages, but we become messengers in the negotiation that is this, this democratic process. And so when you find yourself doing that, yes, you can kind of credit it to having earned your stripes and having gotten better at what you're doing. And then it gets to be addictive. And then it gets to be difficult to quit. Because it's like too much fun to quit.

Henry Jimenez  

It's also because you're kind of developing a pipeline, John, so it's like, it's not like, you know, what bills are gonna get passed this year, you know, what you're gonna work on, even next year, I think you already know what clients are probably going to come to you and say.. and it's almost like, I feel like no one, no one can predict what like what's going to happen, right? But I think that you can get a sense, I'm sure after this last election, you already knew like, hey, this client, no chance, this one, hey, by the way, you caught me three years ago, do you still want to do that, because this is the year! Right? And so there's almost like, you know, different opportunities with different makeups of session. And so I think it's probably, again, hard to quit when you already have these relationships. So, you know, even if you took a year off, like, you still have these relationships, unless it's, the legislature completely turns over. And I think for me, this session was one of those opportunities where, if I, you know, we started out when I first started all these lobbies, like knew two thirds of all of the legislators. So in my mind, I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get to know all 201, even if it takes me years. But I think that the playing field kind of leveled out for me, this election cycle, because I'm pretty sure that most of the legislators, the new ones that came in, I already had a relationship with. And that's something that I think most lobbyists didn't have. And so I went from like, hey, you know, he kind of has a good amount of relationships to overnight, I have the relationships with some of the new chairs of these committees, and- 

John Apitz 

And my experience was just the opposite. Because I'm kind of partially retired because I've withdrawn a bit. 25% of the legislature is brand new this year, brand new. And to have those built in relationships going in is a huge advantage. And so the tables can turn in a sense, right? Because you know, a whole bunch of people who I will never get to know who I don't know now and who I'll never get to know.

Leah Cooper

Note to our listeners - Henry and John are about to start to talking about the POCI Caucus - if you’re not familiar with the name, POCI, P-O-C-I refers to People of Color and Indigenous Legislators who are a growing political force at the Capitol. 

Henry Jimenez  

You're gonna see a lot of new things happening this year. I think earlier today, I mentioned the one lane highway frustration. But when this much water is coming through the water hose eventually is going to burst. And I can tell you that I feel like right now, it's a buildup of this pressure. And it's coming, because I can tell that leadership is feeling this pressure. I see the POCI caucus growing from, I remember when it was first announced, and it was maybe I can count the members on one hand. But now it's like I can't even name name all of them for you. And the requests that they have and saying things like we will out of the 17 point 5 billion this much should be designated to us. While the politics is not there for something like that. That's what I mean by the pressure is coming to where it's eventually going to have to be, targets even to the POCI caucus. So eventually, those members are gonna say, Yep, and we would like a billion and no one's going to be able to say no to that. They can say no to that right now. I don't think they'll be able to say no to that in the very near future.

John Apitz 

And because of the relationships that you've developed within that caucus and within the those people who I won't probably ever have A chance to build a relationship with, you are going to have huge advantage over the longer term. Those relationships are going to -

Henry Jimenez  

I’ll take you out, John and introduce you to them.

John Apitz 

I would be honored! I would be honored Trust me, I would be honored. I had to go to the POCI caucus, I had an issue. This is amazing. I had an issue this year, that dealt with law enforcement. And I kind of made my way through the legislative session, and I was all set up for a hearing. And the next thing I knew somebody said, but you have to go to the POCI caucus first. And I said, and forgive me for this. I said, Who's the POCI caucus? And I figured it out and went and visited with the leadership of the POCI caucus. And they said, that's not a problem. We'll take it in, and we'll get it done. We'll get it heard. But I didn't realize there was this new gate this year. So in answer to your question, yes, it will be different going forward and the relationships that we build. now, certainly in Henry's instance, the relationships that we build now will count for a great deal more in the years ahead.

Henry Jimenez 

John, I would almost say instead of it's a new gate, I would say it's an expressway being created.

John Apitz 

That's a very good, that's very -

Leah Cooper

I love this metaphor

John Apitz

expressway is good as the road is the road is broadened, was widened.

Leah Cooper

One thing I want to ask you both about and this is this might dovetail into our final question, which is part of what we hope this podcast can do is, is tell regular people, people not like you two, who aren't addicted to spending all their time at the Capitol, how they might get involved, how they might affect change, how they might access governance, right. And I would just want to point out that in addition to relationships, you both mentioned information over and over and over again, whether that's, that's information you're conveying as a messenger, or information you're delivering to somebody to deepen your relationship, or information that's just necessary for a legislator to understand to look at 1000 page bill, right. And so I'm struck by how much information you must have to gather and know and understand. We were told early on in the process that lobbyists and advocates and activists are the encyclopedia of the Capitol.

John Apitz 

That's a great, that's a very good -

Leah Cooper  

They’re the knowledge. They’re the brain. Because legislators maybe only know about a few issues really when they first come in.

John Apitz

Sure.

Leah Cooper 

And nobody can know everything. And you even mentioned how important it is for the legislative aides and the committee folks, that the people who work in non partisan roles to have the information about how things even get done. Right. So that's a long way of saying, Where do you get your information? How do you learn all the things that you know?

Henry Jimenez  

Can I also say, like, I think that I think that being an encyclopedia is a good, good metaphor, but because of, of technology now, and you know, even now, legislators having their smartphones on the floor, you know, so even me telling you I would I would look things up and then text them. You know, I feel like we're at a point where they could just look that up in the moment now, right? I think that the new way to be more useful to legislators is, how to present this information where it looks even better than just learning now, you know, Google says this, but hey, I put together this info chart for you so that when you go to your district, oh, man, thanks. Yeah, I can just share that on my social media page right now. Thank you for like, now it's like a graphic and it looks good than just than typing something. And I think that's a new way of trying to get their attention. But like, John, this, this is probably bad work life balance for this. We're working on that. I'm not your person. I wake up, and I just start reading. I mean, it's like I read the Star Tribune, no matter how I feel about the Star Tribune, from the, from beginning to end, the Twin Cities, Business Journal, I mean, I'm constantly reading. And if I'm really focused, I'm sure John, you probably follow, you know, the sector that you're working on. But like, if I'm thinking about agriculture, I'm like, just following everything to have to do with agriculture. I'm looking at the questions that the legislators have asked, I'll even ask my lobbyist aide, can you get a response to them? Oh, no, it's fine. It's not our bill. No, I see a connection to this. You might not see it. But I see a connection here. And I want to get ahead of it. So sometimes, even if it's not related to your bill, you're still trying to, again, build that relationship and get ahead of what could become something that intersects your power move in the future. So a lot of reading,

John Apitz 

We become specialists in particular fields, and that's what the legislators rely on us for. Henry's right though. The whole world has changed in terms of the availability of information and the expertise that's available to anybody who's at the legislature. You pick up your cell phone, you tap in whatever question you've got, and you've got the answer to it. The presentation of the answer is the useful part that we provide, to be able to go back to your constituents and explain to them why this is of importance to them is the quintessential piece of what we do now. Anybody can get the information, information is readily available. Why is information important? is what we're all about. I mean, it's sort of like education, it's sales, it's the message, it's all those things that a lobbyist is, it's in the presentation of that information, and helping helping a legislator present to their fellow lawmakers. In a way that's catchy, that's interesting. That's fascinating, I think helps them through that process as well.

Leah Cooper 

So words of advice to others, or that you wish you'd gotten in the beginning?

Henry Jimenez  

Can I before I ask, answer that so like, I'm really big about building traditions as well, you know, and I think I mentioned earlier that the capital is the people's house. And you mentioned like, Well, why would someone get involved? Or maybe they're not involved? Why should they care? I think every single person cares about something. I don't care what it is, but they care about something. And I think that, you know, if you're a mother or father or someone that has children, make it a tradition to talk to your legislator at least once, like you'd bring your children. And you have them sit down and tell them look, I'm frustrated about this, that, you know, just building a relationship and your children saying, hey, I can come to my legislator, and what that even means, because I think that this country right now is really frustrated with where we're going. But that's also because we've allowed some of that to happen, you know, we need to keep holding our legislators accountable. And that means we all need to be part of this. Every single person, you vote or you don't vote. It's a political statement that you make, even when you're not voting. It's a political statement. So it's important that we build tradition, and our children understand what it is that we care about, because I hope we everybody cares about at least one thing. So that's one thing.

John Apitz  

I think the advice I offer is that this is a human enterprise. This is at its base, all about human beings trying to engage themselves and live in some sort of peaceable fashion, there's competition, etc, etc. But in the end, there's some sort of common good that we're trying to strive for. And in anything we do with these people, whether they make us crazy, or we fall in love with them, we have to understand that they are human, no, no different than, than any of the rest of us. And knowing that, and respecting that, I think is the way to excel if you want to be a lobbyist. But it's certainly to Henry's point, the way we're going to excel as a society, if we just if we just appreciate the humaneness of this, of this entire enterprise. There's people out there that make me absolutely nuts. And there's people out there that I am absolutely in love with. And I treat them differently, obviously, but I don't respect any of them any of the less, I may think what one person has to say is absolutely off the off the mark. But I guess, he or she has an election certificate, they get to say it. And there's a reason they got that election certificate, a whole bunch of other people believe what it is that they're talking about, for better or worse. In the end, it is a human enterprise. And we just have to be respectful in all of it, we've lost a bunch of that, but we just have to be respectful in all of it.

Henry Jimenez  

You know, the other thing to take in mind, too, is like the majority of them are here Monday through Thursday away from their family and homes. No matter how we feel about them, you know, they've chosen to, first of all who, who wants to be away from their family that long and then have half the people that they represent upset at them. And then, or folks would yell at them, you know, like, and I understand, you know, there's people that are frustrated, but I also remember thinking like, wow, you know, for better or for worse. I don't necessarily like the politics of this individual, but they've also sacrificed a lot to, to in their way give to Minnesota and I and I have to respect that as well. 

John Apitz  

It's really hard work. It is hard work that they do and they get paid a pittance to do it and they sacrifice so much for it.

Henry Jimenez 

You know, most Minnesotans don't take the time to even drive to Duluth. Imagine the legislators that have to go another three hours past Duluth to get to the districts every week. There's a level of respect for that. I mean, I and I understand they signed up for it. But in many ways being a civil servant, and I also put the state government employees in that as well, I think a lot of maybe bad publicity lately for things that have happened. There's a lot of really good things that a lot of good people, nearly 50,000 employees in the state of Minnesota are doing for our state.

John Apitz  

Every day and nobody hears about it. Nobody hears about it. You just expect it.

Henry Jimenez  

You know, that's another thing though, John, you know, like, I think people build so many close relationships. Because when you're with someone for 12-14 hour days, it's like going to camp, right? Like you don't know anybody. And then all of a sudden, you're like really close, because they spent all this time. But because that pool of campers hasn't been diverse. It's been among this group. It’s becoming more diverse. And now these relationships are cross sector cross racial, like it's becoming more of that for everybody John like, even for you and I to be talking right now. Or, I hope that in a few years from now, there's more of this happening at the Capitol, and I actually think I am seeing it happen slowly, but it's happening, but it also would take like, some of at some point, you will retire, who will take over your clients, and some of your clients might say, hey, maybe we should check on folks that look like Henry, right. That's a reality…

Alan Berks

I wanted to jump into this conversation with commentary so many times. This thing is great. And that thing they said! And you have to remember this! Or that! They say so many things that I think everyone needs to hear. But I guess my biggest takeaway is about perseverance. 

Leah Cooper

Yes, we met Henry initially while he was finishing his first year at the Council on Latino Affairs. And he talks about how hard that was. But he kept at it, he kept talking to people, he went to their districts, he prepared information for them before they even asked–

Alan Berks

He treated everyone like he wanted his parents to be treated!

Leah Cooper

And now, with new members of the legislature, his perseverance has paid off. He can see his influence on both Democrats and Republicans. Perseverance and respect.

Alan Berks

Respect, even for people who you really really disagree with, even when you know how much is at stake, both John and Henry seemed to embody that principle.

Leah Cooper

Yet, they are still also critical of the process. They call out the influence of money, the way that some people don’t treat others with respect, the way that the process can be bottled up so that nothing can pass through these narrow channels of power.

Alan Berks

Henry said that, but then he also pointed out that pretty soon, the POCI caucus will be big enough that they’ll get more of their requests fulfilled. Which is exactly the way democracy is supposed to work, isn’t it? Once your coalition is big enough, then the levers and buttons start working for you.

Leah Cooper

Yes, but again, “It’s complicated.” It’s not as simple as establishing a majority. In our next episode we’ll talk to two people who have been working really hard for many years to make space at the table for more diverse voices. They learned - the hard way - that relationships are not always authentic, and that you have to find the balance between following the rules that have worked in the past, and disrupting the system to create rules that work better. 

Alan Berks

We talk with Monica Hurtado, Policy Director at Voices for Racial Justice

Monica Hurtado

We need to change the narrative, we need to change the conversation, because we create worlds with our words. And that world that we are dreaming to be part of needs to be named to become more real. And reports are more than welcome, numbers are great, but numbers that tell a good story is very important.

Leah Cooper

And Vina Kay, former Executive Director at Voices for Racial Justice

VIna Kay

More and more I see the power in our presence, in just our existence. And having a voice in the community. We belong here. And it’s not always going to be easy, or comfortable, and we might get loud, or angry, but that’s all part of being in community together.

Alan Berks

 You’ve been listening to Our House. I’m Alan Berks. 

Leah Cooper

And I’m Leah Cooper. “Our House '' is a podcast of Wonderlust Productions. Our production assistant is Frances Matejcek, our editor is Marianne Combs, and our sound designer and audio engineer is Peter Morrow with help from Rachel Briese. Music was composed by Becky Dale. Lyrics by Alan Berks and Becky Dale. For detailed credits on the making and performing of the play, visit our website at wlproductions.o-r-g

Alan Berks

The professional actors you heard in this episode are Antonio Duke, Pedro Fonseca, Bradley Greenwald, Adam Whisner, Megan Kim and Laurel Armstrong.

Leah Cooper

 Big thanks to our partners and supporters who have made this podcast possible, including the Minnesota Humanities Center, Eastside Freedom Library, In Progress Studios, MinnPost, The Theater of Public Policy, and the Elmer L. and Eleanor J. Andersen Foundation. See the thank-you page on our website for a full list of the donors and foundations who make all of our work possible. 

Alan Berks

Thanks for listening!