Episode 9: The Power of Disruption

What does it feel like to be the pieces on the game board rather than the players? Two activists who advocate from outside the system remind us that its the community that matters. Guests: Monica Hurtado and Vina Kay 

0:00 Introductions 
3:08 How is the reality of working at the capitol different than what you were taught?7:16 Do you have a story that about a time decision makers didn’t have the full picture? 15:12 What barriers make the capitol inaccessible?
24:00 Can you share a story about the abundance mindset, and how one community being raised up helps another?
34:34 Are the barriers themselves explicitly racist or white supremacist or are they just, they just happen to work well to protect a system that will began white supremacist?37:44 What keeps you coming back to this work? 
41:06 Do you think it’s good to agitate people? 
43:11 What do you see in Minnesota 20, 50 years from now? 

Transcript

Leah Cooper

Welcome to Our House, a podcast that pulls back the curtain on Minnesota State government. I’m Leah Cooper.

Alan Berks

And I’m Alan Berks. We’re the co-artistic directors of a theater company called Wonderlust Productions. In the process of putting together an original show about life at the state capitol, we learned that Minnesota government is very much like theater.

Leah Cooper

But at a certain point, we have to admit that the differences between government and theater are important. Theater is storytelling. In government, the stories are about real people and the endings have real consequences.

Alan Berks

When we only talk to people with experience inside the system, the tricks of the trade and the clever machinations sound elegant and even seductive. Everyone we’ve interviewed so far is smart, and they care. So when they talk about the game of it, I find myself going, “Yeah, sure, that sounds right. It’s complicated but it’s the best we can do.”

Leah Cooper

But it’s necessary to remember that for many people, what happens at the Capitol is much more than a game. So, in this episode–and in the episodes to come–we talk to people who have never worked in state government or in the Capitol building but who try to affect policy from outside the system. And who are deeply affected by it, win or lose.

Alan Berks

Monica Hurtado, the policy director for Voices for Racial Justice, comes to these issues from far outside American politics.

Monica Hurtado 

My background is in healthcare  - I was trained as a healthcare provider in Colombia, and I was working in a community clinic here in South Minneapolis, and I was doing connected work with policy, I think 2018, with the census work is when I started to connect the dots let’s say, between organizing and advocacy and policy. 

Leah Cooper

For Vina Kay, her work began to intersect with the Capitol because of her interest in race and poverty.

Vina Kay 

I first started in public policy right out of law school. And there was more in research to support policy. And then later, it was when I joined Organizing Apprenticeship Project, which became voices for racial justice, where we worked together, that I got into organizing and organizing and the way we move policy as a community.

Alan Berks

It’s remarkable to me how often both Monica and Vina use the word organizing when they talk about their work with public policy. 

Leah Cooper

And also how often they use the word community.

Alan Berks

From the very beginning of the interview, they were clearly focused on the effect of the process on communities. In this episode, we begin to explore how it feels when your community is treated like a piece on a game board.

Leah Cooper

Or to use another metaphor, Vina points out if you’re not at the table – you’re on the menu.

Alan Berks

Monica begins by explaining how different she found the reality of working at the Capitol compared to what she had been taught.

Monica Hurtado  

In 2019, is when I became very engaged with the driver's licenses work at the Capitol.

And by then I was, I had attended a training and how an idea becomes law and Oh, yeah. And so I was getting into the world. And it was a constant discovery of how the process can be wired. Meaning, like, yeah, we still have the bill on the house, the bill in the senate, and they go to the committees, and they will go to the conference committee and yeah, that's what we learned in classes. But recently, I found this quote saying that the process matters, when the policy really does not matter. So literally, understanding that if there's political will and power around that, they will make whatever policy pass, is kind of the big discovery for me. I was I was not expecting that level of difference between what I was trained on and what I found.

Vina Kay

I have two views on it. One is that it's not as straightforward as we're taught. And a lot of it has to do with who shows up, who has a voice, who is able to get a meeting with a legislator, and tell their story. And in that way, organizing is, is really, really important. So I think, I don't know if it was a surprise so much as a confirmation, and a deeper understanding of how important it is, for people to be in those spaces, and to be able to tell their stories. And truly it is, what is that saying about if you're not at the table, you're on the menu, is pretty much how it works. And so that is both powerful and full of hope and possibility, and also very terrifying, because there are all these barriers to being able to show up and have a voice in that space. And not everybody knows how to do that. And so that, I think, is a challenge. And then, you know, the other thing that stood out to me I remember early on was how much legislators really don't know, and don't have the full level, you know, the full experience, the lived experience, the relationships and community, even though they've met, they've been elected to hold these positions. They simply can't, none of us can know everything. And so for them, you know, I found that there was a real need to help them understand how much they didn't know, in order for them to be open to just listening and hearing. And I think that the way we show up in those spaces is, you know, as community members, as people who don't understand that that system necessarily is a level of intimidation, you know, you feel intimidated, or you feel like, like we feel like we don't know, but actually, that lack of understanding of each other is shared across the board. So we really need to, I guess be humble in that and be open to hearing each other. But I, I remember thinking “Huh! They actually don't know this experience, they need to hear this, so” 

Alan Berks

And so are you saying the difference is rather than them having bad intentions, like they know what they're doing? Just turns out that some of them don't actually even know the full breadth of what the experience is? Is that what you're saying? 

Vina Kay 

Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, sometimes Yeah, there are, what I would call bad intentions or working against, you know, what I want or what our communities want. But um, yeah, sometimes it's simply that. Not having the full picture.

Alan Berks  

Are there any specific stories that that illuminate those things that you'd be comfortable sharing, like a specific instance that happened?

Monica Hurtado 

The drivers like licenses is the one that comes to mind because we started, that was 2019. And Voices was part of the coalition of multiple organizations moving the bill and the bill has been already in existence for 15 years by then. It was the first time that Voices and myself were, were supporting this on a deep, deep level. And I remember attending meetings with the authors of the bill in the house. Even before the session started defining who was going to be the author, how the, the, the role of every organization was going to be. We were really excited because for the first time, this was going to be a more intentionally multiracial coalition. Because up until that moment, it had been mostly Latinx. And that was pretty exciting. And so we started to play by the rules, and we need to introduce the bill in the house and the bill in the Senate. And the bill started to go through the different committees. That year a union was putting money and investing in a lot and that union even had lobbyist. So the union had a lobbyist and the lobbyist was working with the Senate. Because the Senate didn't have an author, or... And we were attending meetings with the our author of the bill in the House, and the co author. And they will always no, no, don't worry. And we kept going through the process in the house. First deadline, nothing is going happening, isn't it? No, don't worry, it’s going to happen we are we are talking with the leadership of the Senate. And we were so anxious as community, following the rules. Like the second deadline is, is coming and this is going to die. No, no. There was always even the author and co author of the house, trusting that the Senate at some point was going to come along. And the three deadlines passed and no bill was introduced in the Senate. And it was very confusing. Like, okay, it's gone. We don't have an opportunity to pass this bill. No, they kept saying that the process of the omnibus, the bill could be, until the very last minute, when negotiations were happening between the governor in the House and the Senate. Behind closed doors, we were told, there’s still an opportunity and nobody was able, but I was not able to imagine - what can happen now? Well long story short, it didn't happen at that level either. But it could have happened. And looking backwards. It was a game. Itt was deceiving. It was decieving for the community. So it was very hard.

Alan Berks  

That's a great story. That illuminates a lot of what people seem to get very frustrated about is this mysterious process. Yeah. Do you also have a…?

Vina Kay  

Well I have a question. I guess I'm curious whether you think things are changing as representation changes at the legislature because I don't know whether this happens but do you think that as more and more people who are coming from the communities who are organizing around these these policies in the in our work around racial justice policies, are they communicating back in a more transparent way than we used to see?

Monica Hurtado  15:12

Yes, I will say because now we have the most diverse legislature in our history. Absolutely. Yes, we have the POCI caucus that is much more powerful these days than before. That has changed a lot, yes. Still, they are a minority in comparison with the 2001 total number of legislators. I will say, I'm probably pretty biased with this – I think we have changed too. When I say we, is the BIPOC community is not easy. It's not as easy to deceive us as before. And I will add this other story that is also connected with driver's licenses. 2013-2014 is when we had the trifecta, and people said, this is the year for driver's licenses, now is the time. And it didn't happen. And it didn't happen because a politician who was the Speaker of the House, he didn't even allow the bill to be discussed. And the reason? It’s going to be controversial. So we are going to lose the house. If we allow this bill to become a law. And election came, and they lost the house anyway. So it's one of the one of the yeah, big, big stories within the community. So in a way, it was terrible. It was terrible, but in a way, is something that we tend to go a lot to - hey remember, we cannot take anything for granted. We need to be very strong in our voice. So that was 2014. But in 2019, the other situation that I mentioned, also around driver's licenses, we learn our lessons. And I'm naming the driver's licenses, because it was there for 20 years. So the community had a lot of opportunities to see things not working, and play by the book, and being creative. And it still took 20 years. But I will say that that bill driver's licenses is one of the the reasons why the community communities of color are now - “MmMm. Not anymore. No.” We are not going to allow you to go as easy to when I say to you is any legislator or any party, any side. Uh uh. You need to prove to us that it’s worth it, for us to trust you to go with you in this process. And I think it’s both: the people elected, great. The people who are observing this space. So I think that's part of the reasons why this year feels better.

Vina Kay  

I think though, that it's I think you're right. And that organizing piece is critical. And the public narrative can be “Oh, we want all these things, and we won fast.” All of this aggressive pushing of policy. But actually it's been years and years, 20 years of organizing to get to the point where you can actually move something forward. And without those 20 years of organizing, it's possible that it wouldn't have even with this political climate might not have… I remember that when, when I was at Voices - OAP, I think it was then. And we were reflecting on 2013-14 when we had that trifecta, and a lot of things did move. And do you remember that we talked about the hammering at – I don't remember the story exactly. But it's hammering at a boulder. And you strike it again and again, it doesn't break, it doesn't crack. And then suddenly, it will. But the point is that it's because you've been doing it and weakening that, that it suddenly breaks open. It took all of that work to get to that point.

Alan Berks 

You mentioned when you were talking about sort of what you've learned that there are these barriers to people being at the table. Can you just illuminate that in more detail? Like I mean, because something that's I think it's in the play, and something we hear a lot is, for some people, there's a belief that Minnesota State Government is more accessible than anywhere else, the doors are always open. And legislators always, you know, if you live in my district, you can come and talk to me. And so for some people, that seems like well, what else do you want? So what, what are these other barriers that make it not accessible, which is also something that obviously people talk about?

Vina Kay  

Well, when we think about communities that are most impacted by systemic barriers, systemic racism, poverty, lack of access to health care, when you have to struggle through that, the additional work of understand understanding the system, having the time to engage with that system. You know, those are barriers for anybody who's balancing a busy life, and also wanting to see change in their community. So there's at that level, that's true. I think another barrier can be you know, just our practice of organizing. Community organizations can be guilty of, of moving without building that strong base. When that happens, I think we don't have a strong policy. You know, we don't have policy that's really informed by by people's voices. Our own organizing work can become a barrier. If it's trying to move fast, if it's not taking the time to build relationship, if it isn't pausing enough to be informed. You know, I am remembering one conversation we had at Voices. This was a long time ago. But do you remember the thing about payday loans?

Monica Hurtado

Oh, yes. Yeah.

Vina Kay 

Yeah, there was this… So payday loans are these horribly high interest loans that that take advantage of people who really are living paycheck to paycheck and it gives them the ability to access their paycheck, that's going to be coming, early by taking out a loan, and then you have to pay back the lender, but at these crazy high interest rates. And so they end up going into the cycle of going into more and more debt. And so there was an effort to do away with payday lending or to put some real restrictions on payday lending. And I can't remember who it was, but we were at a conversation at a table at our office. And somebody said, “Well, what are we going to have instead? How are we going to address the fact that people actually still don't have food to eat, can't pay their heating bill or their rent? That's the problem.” And yeah, you can get rid of payday loans. But you still have this underlying problem, which completely opened my eyes to, well, we don't have the right people. We don't have all the voices here at this table, to think through well, what's the root here that we need to be addressing? I really remember that -  it was a learning moment for me.

Monica Hurtado 

I absolutely remember from that conversation, how this very well intended, white organization was moving a policy with the best of intentions, but it’s when this guy said, please don't do it - put a cap on the interest rate. But it is a matter of life and death for our communities. And the guy saying this African American guy. And it was a moment of truth for all of us how many policies are being discussed without having the experience. That moment was an aha moment.

Leah Cooper

 In one scene in our play about the Capitol, we placed a chorus of typical Capitol characters–an advocate, a lobbyist, a policy expert–around a table with our central character, a woman who had been mistaken for the new Governor’s new Chief of Staff. And she asks them directly–why don’t people of color feel like they have a place at the table?

SHEILA

I grew up in North Carolina. Jesse Helms was our Senator. We were very much aware that we would be tolerated but never really celebrated. And so when we came to Minnesota we got this real, uh, amazement. At first it seemed like the land of milk and honey. We lived out in Burnsville, and eventually, I remember people being so amazed to see me out there. Like I was some exotic creature.

And I think to myself, if I’m never truly celebrated in North Carolina, and my family doesn’t belong here either, “What am I? What is my daughter?” I looked at all the pictures in the Capitol today, and until I got to this room, I didn’t see any people of color.

Vina Kay 

When I arrived at OAP - Voices for Racial Justice - we were doing a legislative report card on racial equity, and had already been doing that for a number of years. So I picked up that project and over, you know, the years that I was working on that report card, what we came to see was that we had more and more legislators who we would call “racial equity champions.” They were introducing bills. They were co-authoring, they were using the right language. Many of these bills never really went anywhere. But because our methodology was looking at leadership, they would build up the points to be considered racial equity champions. And I was told that, at the very beginning when these report cards were first being developed, people weren't necessarily sure they wanted to be named racial equity champions. So, you know, we've come a long way in that narrative, in that wanting to be on that train, you know -  on the racial equity train - from before not wanting to have not wanting to touch it. And so that's progress. But having the words and having a lot of champions didn't actually add up to a change in the conditions, the material conditions for communities of color in Minnesota, and that's when we had to pause and say, Okay, this methodology is not working anymore, because our disparities are not better. And in some cases they're worse than they were 10 years ago. We have more people who think of themselves as doing the good work of advancing racial equity, yet, the lived conditions, the material conditions of our communities has not changed. So I think that kind of gets a little bit at, what is hard is that it's hard for a broader public to build towards something that we've never had. We’ve not had racial justice. I would say the same about – we've not really had democracy, we haven't had the vision that we want. So we don't know how to live into it yet as a whole. But I also think that,  the challenge is actual resistance. And it's, you know, it's our tendency to see our world working in a zero sum way, if you get that, then I lose, rather than, all of us could actually be better off, if we have more equitable access to resources, to opportunities, that actually will be better for everybody. But instead, we tend to think of it as a give and take, and if I give, then then you're going to take. And so I just think that that framework really needs to shift that way of thinking about these opportunities and a scarcity mindset really needs to change. And we we need to move toward seeing possibility and abundance in our communities. And that is, I just think it makes it really hard for us to move, you know, racially equitable policy in a meaningful way.

Alan Berks 

Is there a story that comes to mind? That is more of an abundance mindset that sort of shows the opposite? That if, if one community is raised up, other communities can be raised up?

Vina Kay 

Well, yeah, just this session, finally, restoration of voting rights. It does not hurt anybody, for more people to have access to voting, to being able to participate in the elections process. To have a voice in that system. Yet, it has taken many, many years to move that through, because there was something about not wanting to give people who have been incarcerated, who've been convicted of a felony, the opportunity to fully be participating human beings in our society. And that doesn't have to do with anybody losing anything, as a result of opening up that possibility of voting. But there was a real resistance to it. And finally, this year that has passed and people who have completed their time in prison can now vote. That's a win for all of us, because we have more people engaged in, in our community and in this process, and that can only be better. I don't see how that can be worse. 

Alan Berks  

And it helps them feel part of society again, so it reduces recidivism, potentially, theoretically, which is better for everybody as well. Did you want to add something in terms of why you think this, it's so hard to…

Monica Hurtado 

Well, white supremacy is big. Patriarchy is big. We have inherited this system built by men, by white men. Being built on a slavery, displacing native people from their own lands, and policy for me these days is becoming like, Oh, my goodness, I see this capital and I see this, like, how, how it was built to legalize that oppression, and how destructive this democracy system has, has become. So I see, the rules and the processes and the practices. Not all, but it’s very hard to get there in that building. And you can feel the barriers, even with champions, even with them, even with people in the agencies, we have tried to move and move things. But the rules, the way it’s built, white supremacy and structural racism is so embedded. That you make a move and you hit a wall, and then you change course and Oh, another wall. And the reason why it's very hard to have this conversation among our communities. Because even in our organization, we have had staff members who said why go to the talk with legislators, why? Why we are trying to change the system, using the Master’s rules? Why not to destroy? Being abolitionist is something that within our communities, is it's very hard to come to terms and to negotiate, what is the best thing to do because of trying to change the rules and the processes. Progress is slow. Everybody's so happy: driver's licenses! But it should be embarrassing to say that it took us 20 years. That's embarrassment. So yeah, I will say the rules and the processes and practices are so embedded throughout that it is very difficult to break through. But we'll keep trying – there's no other thing to do – but ugh!

Alan Berks  

Well, you are of the opinion that you have to keep trying and but there's other people in the community who are like, burn it down, basically?

Monica Hurtado 

There are multiple, or several at least. One is, let's leave them alone. Let's build our own economy, our own processes and our own rules. Let's not depend on the capital. I don't see how that can help. That's me.

Vina Kay 

I think we need it all. I mean, we need to be building alternative ways of being in community. Alternative economic practices, practices of mutual aid. I think all of those are important, at the same time, that we work within the system to change the system. And there are certain kinds of reforms – abolitionism –, and I think of myself as an abolitionist, and I think that there are certain kinds of reforms that are “reformist reforms,” and there are others that are actually advancing a new, more transformative way of thinking and I, you know, maybe you could call it burning it down, but I think it's actually rebuilding it over here. So we can let go, we can let this other thing deteriorate. It’s had its time. And now, you know, how can we imagine a different way of being? And it's, it's not? I don't I don't think it's one or the other. I think it's both and all at the same time.

ADVOCATE

We need to mobilize people like we did with marriage equality. That happened fast.

DIRTY DAVE

That movement was built on the resistance to the marriage amendment a year before.

EXPERT

The resistance happened fast.

SHEILA

There are people who have been working for equality for a long time.

(“yes, yes, of course, absolutely, of course.”)

EXPERT

Relatively fast.

DIRTY DAVE

People could see how that policy directly affected the lives of people they know.

SHEILA

Do you see me?

(Confused, “Yes, yes, of course, of course.”)

This issue affects me.

CIVIL SERVANT

Yes, but you’re not like “regular people.”

EXPERT

Citizens.

DIRTY DAVE

You’re not “real people.” You’re one of us.

SHEILA

You talk about citizens like they’re from another planet than you.

You all like to pretend you’re listening and finding common ground, but each of you really thinks you’re smarter and you know better how to make the government work.

EXPERT

. . . well. . .

CIVIL SERVANT

. . . how did you figure that out?

SHEILA

Because no matter what anyone says, you come up with a reason why it won’t work that way.

DIRTY DAVE

I will tell you the truth: We have too much at stake. We can’t afford to lose. Our positions. Our relationships. Our expertise. I need to be right, I need to be on the right side, and that means that other people are on the wrong side. It’s just the way it is.

SHEILA

It’s just the way it is? But I’ve seen people come together in my lifetime for a cause. You’ve seen it. Haven’t you? . . . Haven’t you seen amazing things happen here? Haven’t you?

Monica Hurtado

Policy is critical, is very important. But even if we are able to create the perfect policies it is not going to be enough. Because this is very complicated – we are here, we arrive here by years and years and years of decisions made by others that built this that we have inherited, and policy I believe, I'm a firm believer, it can, it can be great. Or it can be a tool, or it can be a weapon. So, because of my interest, I'm an organizer at heart. I believe in policy. We need advocates, we need different modes of economy. We need to be very creative, you want to get out of this hole we are.

Vina Kay 

You know, that makes me think too, that it's it's not just the policy win.I mean, and this is where I think as organizers, we can all do better in continuing to follow the implementation of that policy. Because if nobody's doing that, if nobody's watching, it's very easy to fall back into the usual way of doing things. And that policy is there on paper, but isn't actually impacting people's lives. And I don't know what the mechanisms, I mean, you would like to think that our system, once we've enacted these policies, that they will be fairly implemented, and everybody will follow these new rules. And it I don't think, it doesn't work that way. And so we need to, we can always do better at putting into practice these, this vision. And that implementation, I think needs continued organizing, accountability and organizing around that.

Monica Hurtado  

That brings me something that I was going to say and I forgot, how Minnesota is now 20% People of Color, but still 80% White people and Asian people. So we see those demographics. When I came here 21 years ago, people of color were 5-6%. So when you say the people, or the government, what people? Because it's changing, and it's changing in ways that are very dramatic. Worthington was a town that was dying. And now, Worthington is a vibrant town in the most diverse corner of the state, and is alive and very alive. Still very racist. So that question is the government, is it the system, is it the people I will tend to say it’s more the people. But for how long that can sustain itself if the systems are not transformed? 

Alan Berks 

I see - 

Monica Hurtado

It’s the question.

Alan Berks

There's got to be some sort of feedback loop in which the people are feeding the policy, and it's all supporting the people who are living in the state somehow.

Vina Kay  

Ideally, government is the people. You know, so it should be. 

Monica Hurtado

True, true.

Alan Berks  

There's another thing I wanted to just go back to you mentioned that the the system is set up, patriarchy, white supremacy. I just want to clarify from just make sure I'm tracking right, like the system has these barriers. And the barriers make it hard to change the status quo. But are the barriers themselves explicitly racist or white supremacist or are they just, they just happen to work well to protect a system that will began white supremacist?

Monica Hurtado  

Well both. But one example came to mind. We were working together when I started at OAP/Voices. And we were doing work with the Minnesota Department of Health and we were telling them we want to work with people of color, it’s the requirement. We want to compensate them for the time asking them for their their wisdom. And we were using the morning that they were giving us, I mean, the Department of Health. They were giving us money for the project allocated in the budget Okay. Out of the money we are getting we want to spend this much money on giving the people, recognizing the people for the time they were giving us in interviews to know about race, ethnicity and language data. It took us months to be able to to go around the rule in Minnesota Department of Health that did not allow us to use money on people, and it was our money! No, it was! 

Vina Kay 

We could use it to pay our salaries.

Monica Hurtado 

Exactly. So that was rule. No nobody had asked to do that before us. It was not intentionally discriminatory, but the outcome was. So I will say more and more, you will not see those overt racist policies because they know better now. Another quick example - Minnesota Department of Health again,  we were working with them very closely. They were very concerned about the lead in the paintings in the houses and how that was affecting kids and their neurological development. And they were really proud of the work they were doing around health inequities and racial disparities.Great people! Amazing people doing the work. And after, like, less than a year doing the work, they realized, Oh, we are working with home owners. We are changing the paintings of the houses that are owned by the people who live there, who own houses here. White people! 75% of Black people rent houses. So they are still living in houses that are full of lead. So it was a policy, it was an internal project, and it took them several months before they realized, Oh, we are perpetuating a discriminatory practice or policy. 

Alan Berks

You describe –  things, everything takes 20 years and to get super happy or you realize that something you've been working on, you had the wrong idea and you didn't have people organized. There's a line in the play that says you have to get numb to the realities at the Capitol. I think the line was –  and all the lines in the play are from other people. “You have to get numb to the realities of the Capitol, you cry a little, then you come back the next day.” What keeps you guys coming back? Or kept you coming back? Assuming that description is true, and that capital does sort of wear you down a bit.

Vina Kay  

You know, I don't think it's the capital really, that is the thing. It's really more the community, it's working with people who have a vision for the community that we want to live in together, and they have solutions and ideas, and there's, to me there's an energy in working together around the vision and and realizing that we have a voice, that we have power to change conditions, which maybe that's at the Capitol, but maybe it's somewhere else and the Capitol is an important, and only one of the places to do that, I think.

Monica Hurtado 

I will add that anger can be a good emotion, if you find how to channel that. The capitalist system is working as designed. It’s working to keep us away, it’s working to be confusing, complicated. Traumatic. So the system works because we are not there. So it’s like, being annoyed by that? Too bad. We need to be here. And, at the same time, community is also in there. Community is also inside. I've been having this year an amazing, amazing experience with a great ally. A white woman. And we have been together in, in the space, in this was how been transformed by her. And how I've been transforming her too. Not only me because we are in a group. The transformation that has been happening. It's feels powerful. It's energizing, to be able to see the change happening in front of your eyes. It is slow, it is not all we need, but it’s beautiful. And again, I'm talking not only about people of color, I'm talking about people like this woman who, we need to clone her. And she's questioning herself. In one hearin we were seeing a woman testifying in Spanish. And a legislators said “Excuse me, I don't understand what you're saying.” And it was obvious that she was going to be translated, interpreted. And it was infuriating to see how this white man being so rude. And he was infuriating. And the next day, I had a check in with her. And she said “I was not able to leave, I was thinking, What should I do? What is my role when I see these things happening at the Capitol? How can I use my power?” So those things keep me going.

Alan Berks 

So incremental changes in the right direction – you see enough of them that it keeps you going. And the relationship, the connections, the community connections and the growing of the network and that kind of stuff. There was a person that we talked to actually more than one but who talked about outside activists being – I don't know if she used the term too angry – but that they could use language that's so divisive that it makes enemies. Have you experienced that? Do you have to control your community or do you think No, it's good to agitate people.

Vina Kay  

I believe that it's good to agitate people. I mean, I believe that part of change is uncomfortable. And it's very comfortable for many, most people to stay with the status quo. So we're going to have to get uncomfortable. And so that looks like disruption and dissent and protest, and sometimes strong language. And whatever it takes, it's part of what should be a democracy, is having the ability to speak out.

Monica Hurtado

Yes, we need to be very proud of the many amazing things we have accomplished this year. Restore the vote, universal meals. But racial disparities, I bet. Because of the nature because of how embedded it has been, when we make the evaluation of how much the needle was moved, how much we advanced racial disparities, it’s not going to be nearly close to the advancements of the white people in Minnesota. Dr. Bruce Corrie, who's an economist, based on his calculations – how is it possible that we are 20% of the population we are still and we are still being allocated roughly like 5% of the of the budget of the government? See that disparity? So if I'm wrong, I'll be super happy. There are things that are moving and improving a lot the lives of many people of color years are in comparison, you will see the disparities there.

Alan Berks  

What do you  – what is one thing you imagine is true In Minnesota, 20 years from now, or 50 years from now? What do you see?

Monica Hurtado

I think a community, a healthy community where people feel that we belong, and that race is beautiful. Having different color of skins and different ethnicities and different accents. Belonging. Too rosy, too idealistic, but I will love a Minnesota where people are curious about each other. And in in that curiosity, like learning about about each other, and building something for everybody.

Alan Berks  

That's beautiful. It sounds possible to me,

Vina Kay  

I want to live in that world. 

Alan Berks 

How hard? It doesn’t cost anything to be curious - it’s not a tax or anything. Vina, do you have a vision of the future?

Vina Kay  

I agree with you, I agree with Monica that I do think we are, by our very presence, and our meaning, People of Color, black, indigenous people of color, LGBTQ people, people with disabilities. People who have been on the edges  –  more and more I see the power in our presence, and just our existence. And the survival, and having a voice in the community, having this belonging that you talked about that “We belong here.” And it's not always going to be easy or comfortable. And we might get loud or angry. But that's all part of being in community together. I mean, families are loud and angry and disagree and can still be together and belong and love each other. And so I do see that I, it's not all doom and gloom. I think that we're building toward that. 

Leah Cooper

Have you noticed that the people who advocate hardest for change and who encounter the most defeats and greatest barriers also always seem to be the most optimistic people we meet?

Alan Berks

I used to think it was because they had to project optimism, but now I think it's because they have a vision for change. They see the problems, but they also have a sense of power because they’re working on solutions. And they can feel the results of past wins in their community. 

Leah Cooper

Whereas people who attempt to make more incremental change from within the system may have a harder time seeing the big picture and therefore become more pessimistic.

Alan Berks

Although, to be honest, Monica is also the first person to say that anger can be a good emotion.

Leah Cooper

They are also the first people to talk about how government and public policy are not necessarily the answers to all of a community’s problems.

Alan Berks

Or more specifically that the community needs to look at solutions outside of just public policy. Like “Policy Plus” solutions.  I remember a lawyer we met when we were gathering stories for the Incarceration Play Project. Undergraduates who he mentored would tell him that they wanted to go to law school so they could change the system. And he said you don’t learn how to change the system in law school; you learn how the system works so that you can be a part of it. Do we all need to get outside the system in order to fix it?

Leah Cooper

Good question! In our next episode, we talk with volunteer advocates in the adoption community. After a more than 35 year battle, adoptees will now have unlimited access to their own birth records. How were they finally, finally, finally! able to make it happen?

Alan Berks

Gregory Luce is the Executive Director of Adoptees United and the founder of the Adoptee Rights Law Center.

Greg Luce 

Part of the issue is you’re dealing, when you go into these meetings with legislators or anyone really, there's this entire narrative of adoption that's hanging over your head. And you have to break through that dominant narrative for them to understand why this is an important issue. And the good of adoption always overshadows the secrets of adoption. And people in some ways don't want to hear about the secrets of adoption or the so-called bad things of adoption, things we've not done well, or not done well at all.

Leah Cooper

And Penelope Needham is an adoptee and a long-time advocate for opening adoptee birth certificates.

Penelope Needham 

In 2007 it passed the House, it passed the Senate, but the Governor vetoed it. And that was devastating. I mean, the chief author was, we cried, to realize that, that one person could just sign a name, and kill all of that work.

Leah Cooper

In the process of working on this specific issue, they may have developed a better view of all the different levers and buttons on the legislative machine than anyone inside the system can actually see.

Alan Berks

That’s next time on Our House - I’m Alan Berks. 

Leah Cooper

 And I’m Leah Cooper. “Our House '' is a podcast of Wonderlust Productions. Our production assistant is Frances Matejcek, our editor is Marianne Combs, and our sound designer and audio engineer is Peter Morrow with help from Rachel Briese. Music was composed by Becky Dale. Lyrics by Alan Berks and Becky Dale. 

Alan Berks

The professional actors you heard in this episode are Siddeeqah Shabazz, Kevin Fanshaw, Megan Kim, Adam Whisner, Bradley Greenwald, and Laurel Armstrong. For detailed credits on the making and performing of the play, visit our website at wlproductions.o-r-g. If you enjoyed this podcast and want to support more work like this, click “donate” while you’re there. Or give us a nice review wherever you read podcast reviews.

Leah Cooper

 Big thanks to our partners and supporters who have made this podcast possible, including the Minnesota Humanities Center, Eastside Freedom Library, In Progress Studios, MinnPost, The Theater of Public Policy, and the Elmer L. and Eleanor J. Andersen Foundation. See the thank-you page on our website for a full list of the donors and foundations who make all of our work possible.

Alan Berks

 Thanks for listening!