KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Hey, hey, hey, podcast family. It is your girl, Kandidly Kristin, and this is The Kandid Shop, your number one destination for candid conversations. If you're a first time listener, I want to welcome you to my show. If you're a returning listener, welcome back and thanks for your support. So today, I'm really excited to be sitting down with clinical and forensic psychologist and the author of The Friend Cleanse, Dr. Lebs… Why am I messing up such an easy name? Dr. Leslie Dobson. My God. Welcome, welcome, welcome, Dr. Leslie, to The Kandid Shop.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Oh, my God. Thank for edit, because I just flubbed that all the way around. Jeez. It's the Friday effect. It's what it is. So before we get into the meat of our chat, could you just share with me and my listeners a little bit about your background, specifically how you came interested in pursuing clinical and forensic psychology? And part two is what's the difference between the two?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Sure. I, as a child, always felt like people were sweeping things under the rug and not being transparent or authentic. And I tried to get into medicine through school, but I just had this passion for psychology. And I wanted to work with the most transparent, the most authentic people I could think of. And my first clinical rotation was at the Los Angeles County Jail, where people were acutely mentally ill, unmedicated, and had mostly just committed crimes. And I was so interested in it. So I pursued all my education in the clinical and forensic realms, where clinical was that therapy focus, learning how to do individual and group therapy. And the forensic was the involvement of the court system. So people who were being charged with crimes or who were already doing their time. And I would conduct violence risk assessments to determine if they could get out or they'd be moved into a state hospital system.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: So there's the difference. Well, thanks for explaining that, because I was like, huh. Forensic, because you hear forensic and you think about like medical examiner and that kind of thing, that kind of forensic. Right. I'm glad you're playing that to us. OK, so how did, if it did, the work that you did as a clinical and forensic psychologist, did that inspire or inform you when you wrote The Friend Cleanse?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: It did. I realized that I have had a lot of very psychopathic patients manipulate me or attempt to manipulate me. And I've also navigated these massive interdisciplinary hospitals with a lot of antisocial personalities. And I have very strong boundaries with people who I let into my life. And so with my education, you know, my hands-on education in prisons, hospitals, and with my boundaries, I thought I would write this book to give permission to people to say, you don't have to have toxic, crappy people in your life if they're draining your energy. So I wrote the book and then I designed this little interactive sphere that's on my website and it's free and it's just fun to kind of see like, OK, I'm going to make an emoji for this person and I'm going to move them outside of my personal space and I'm going to see my energy go up or down in this cup that I have on the website.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right. OK, that's pretty cool. I have to check that out. Is the book out yet?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Yeah, it's on Amazon and Kindle, and then we're going to be doing an audio book.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Nice, nice, nice. So as a psychologist, how do you feel or perceive the intersection between mental health and social connections in the context of friendships?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: It's a great question because as we are post-COVID, I guess we could say, although I know quite a few people who are getting COVID right now, I do feel like there's a very, very big change. So COVID gave us this permission to stay away from people and maintain our energy. And people became very picky and choosy about their pods or their squads, whoever they decided to risk their health for. And so COVID gets lifted and now people are kind of being shoved back into these, these interactions that they don't want to be in and that are draining. But for some reason, they're not saying no, they needed that external government ban.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right. To help them do what they wanted to do.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Yeah. There's a direct relationship with our, our psychology, our mental state, our energy, and the confidence to give ourselves permission to identify crappy people.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah, how about that? And do something about them. So that's a great segue because I think that we're social creatures, right? By nature, I think that we are, I believe that we are. And I think that there are misconceptions about friendship that harm people, you know, like, This person, I've known them since I was two, so I've got to be their friend when I'm 32. You know what I mean? So what are some common misconceptions about friendship that people need to discard, especially when it's negatively affecting their emotional or mental well-being?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: I believe we only get one life and we need to preserve the energy that we have so that we can have a mastery over our life and be confident. And if we are giving parts of ourselves to even long-term friends or family and they are leaving us unhappy, drained, negative, or even if we have to put energy forward in anticipation of the interaction. I don't think it's necessary. I think it's OK to end the relationship. You can do it respectfully or you could bookmark the relationship and say there are qualities about you I like, but I'm not at the point in my life right now where you add to it. I'll come back.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right, right. And we might be able to revisit this thing, maybe or not. Yeah, because you don't have to, if it doesn't work for you anymore, people outgrow each other, people You know, they grow and expand and evolve and you have different interests and everybody's not going to be on that train with you as, you know, you evolve. So, and that's okay.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: That's okay. And we fear that we're going to hurt people by setting boundaries, but we have to prioritize ourselves. And if it hurts somebody for us to save ourself, then, then it hurts them and that's their struggle and they need to go to therapy.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right, but I'd better, I mean, self-preservation is supposed to be the first rule, right? So I think we forget that because we're, you know, so afraid of offending or hurting or, or even fear of being alone, or maybe I won't make any new friends. So I'm just going to hold on to these frenemies and crappy friends.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: It's very interesting to watch when I have clients, or even in my own personal life, when I have gotten rid of the toxic people, I've had a period of loneliness and worry, and other people I've witnessed this happen to also. And you kind of have to just go through it. You kind of go through that misery period, the anxiety, the sadness, and then so much more comes that's good. You make strength and energy for people in your life who really fulfill you, who really meet you where you're at.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. So you said boundaries, which is like, like one of my favorite words, because for a long time it was difficult for me to set boundaries, especially with the people that I love. Strangers, it was pretty easy, but the people close to me, it was kind of difficult. So I'm a firm believer. in boundaries, setting them, enforcing them, and reevaluating them from time to time. So what advice as a professional would you give to someone like me who's like, well, I don't even know how to begin to set a boundary when there's been none before, or they've kind of been so fluid that they were non-existent. And how to enforce them once you set them.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Yeah, I really like taking and so I called the book The Friend Cleanse because I like the idea of stepping back from everyone in your life and reevaluating. So before we do a cleanse, we have to pick what it's going to be. So we need to step back, we need to identify all of the people in our life, all of the interactions, and really detail who they are, how they make us feel. All of these nuanced interactions, even if you're talking about Christmas, how did it go? How did the meal go? How did I feel sitting next to them? If I am not their friend, what happens to this other person in this relationship? So get in charge, get in front of it. before. And then as you approach the boundary that you want to set, you'll have that confidence behind you and trust yourself that it's the right choice, which will help you follow through with it.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right. Yeah. That's a good idea. Yeah. So in friendships, right? Friends, like any relationship with two individuals, there's going to be some rough patches sometimes when, you know, things are kind of rocky or whatever. So how do you make the distinction between those that are normal rough patches, for lack of a better term, and a truly toxic friendship. What are some of the red flags that might signal that, hmm, this is not simply a rough patch. This is how this person reacts whenever I share good news or stuff like that. Are there any that you can give my listeners that they should loosely be on the lookout for and not having a list like they did this, this, this, and this.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Well, I think negative jabs are a big one. So even if somebody seems complimenting you, but they make a jab or they say something negative about you, and it's this consistent theme that leaves you tired and questioning the relationship afterwards, huge red flag. You know, I sense that they're very narcissistic and they haven't really made space for you in the relationship. Another big red flag. They're just using you to dump on. Right. So again, just trusting your intuition and your instinct when things are icky and they're icky over time.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah. Yeah. And consistently icky, like the same things come up. One of the biggest red flags for me is when a friend I'm sharing something like I started this podcast and then maybe six months later they go, Oh, how's your little podcast? Like that little thing. I don't know why that gets to me. It's like, it's not a little podcast. I mean, it's, it's my thing. So that to me always signals that they don't like, it's kind of a, they're trying to ask how's it going, but they don't really care or they, you know, throwing that little in there makes it kind of suspect for me. I don't know why. Yes, the cutting down.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: When there's demoralizing comments, belittling, cutting down, I don't like that. I don't think that's healthy. It shows the world who they are, not who you are.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right. Right. I agree. I agree. So we are sitting here talking and we're on two different coasts. So we are clearly. So how does or has or will technology and specifically social media influence how we form friendships, how we maintain them, and are there benefits to, you know, friendships in a digital Facebook that I've never met in real life, so to speak.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: It's an interesting question because I only started social media less than a year ago. And I think I have together about a quarter or 250,000 followers. And what I've learned is that on Instagram, it seems to be a very healthy tribe. People kind of lift you up and they will actually help you or meet you. And it seems healthier than TikTok. I have noticed that depending on the platform, it can fulfill a need of a friendship, a need of someone knowing you that people might want if they don't have a lot of in-person or physical friendships or telephone friendships. But I think it is so important to make sure you have a couple people physically near you that you can go to for support, that you would lean on in emergencies. For me, that would pick my kid up from school.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Okay, yeah, yeah, yep. Because some people don't have that at all. Not, you know, they might have a very small family or their family is spread out and they don't have any friends. And I often wonder why they don't have any friends. Like, is friendship building formation so difficult or we just have forgotten how to do it?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Exactly. Yeah, and I think we have unrealistic expectations. That kind of lends to us not knowing what we're doing.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right, right, right. I think a lot of media, a lot of videos, movies, TV shows give us this rosy picture of these crazy bonds over time. And not that they don't exist. I'm absolutely not saying that. But when you're in your 30s, 40s, 50s, and you have a whole adult life going on, sometimes it can be challenging to to find space and time to meet people or to extend yourself. Some people are just really bad at it. They are socially awkward or I don't know. I just feel like social media gives people anonymity and they can be the version of themselves that they think people want to see versus being their authentic self, I guess. That's what I'm trying to say.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Yeah, I have tried to be my authentic self on social media. And even with all the hate, people enjoy the transparency. And that's how I enter into friendships too. If you don't like me, fuck off.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right, right. And it's okay if you don't like me. I tell people all the time, I am not everybody's cup of tea, okay? And it's okay. It is perfectly okay. So, Dr. Leslie, without giving away all the goodies in the book, because y'all got to buy the book to get all of the goodies, can you share some strategies or techniques from the book that you would recommend for someone who has taken a step back and said, you know what, I need to do a friend cleanse. There are some folks in my life that, you know, are not healthy for me in whatever way they're not healthy or it's just not working. What are some ways somebody can do that without it turning into just like name-calling and, you know, being reduced to something real basic?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: A great way is to figure out what your attachment style is. So figure out, are you more avoidant, anxious, secure? And then compare that to the other person you're reflecting on and see if your styles of attachment are leading to problems or the ickiness that you're reassessing. Because we change depending on the people around us. And we do have to really put that puzzle together every year, every decade, you know, when there are big changes in life. And as we change. I love to also get family and friends that you really trust, that you love, that lift you up, to give you feedback. Trust how they perceive the friendship and the other person.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right, right. Yeah. If somebody's coming to you and saying, dang, every time you're with them, you look sad, anxious, mad, or drained. And what's going on? Why do you keep them around? And sometimes people need a little push to even start to think, because they might not even realize that it's this particular friend that's impacting them that way. So sometimes you need somebody that's a little further back to see what you can't see.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: And even for me, my husband is a psychologist. Okay. I had a friend who, I don't know, we were just kind of friends because it was easy because of school. And he said, I've noticed over time since you've been around her that you're minimizing your profession. You kind of belittle more of what you do and you don't seem as confident in what you do. And it was a reflection of this woman I was around. She was not confident and she was putting down her profession. So then I started putting mine down to kind of join with her in the misery.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: And that was, it was really insightful. And when I thought more about that, I thought, wow, I just, I'm not, she's not a good person to be around for me.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right, right, right. So how did, just for my own curiosity and I'm being nosy. So how did ending that friendship look like? What did that look like?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: So I started to set boundaries around conversations. I started to focus on complimenting myself or talking about things I was proud of. And it was met with resentment. And I could tell right away that she was not wanting to be around somebody who was above her or level with her. She just wanted somebody to be beneath her. Got it. And so the boundaries over time became, led to the friendship being few and far between and now just kind of social niceties. And I'm comfortable with that.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Okay, all right. And if she is, she is, and if she isn't, she isn't, Right. When you wrote The Friend Cleanse, what did you hope that readers took away from it if there was like a vision for it, and how did or do you hope that it impacts the lives of folks who will read it?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: I wanted the women I see in my practice, especially in their thirties and early forties, to stand up and say, this is my boundary. This is the life I want and deserve. And I'm only going to have people in it that lend to my vision for myself. And it has played out. It has been, it's a small book and it is a great tool where people are, it has parts of it where you can journal too and write down the people in your life. And I've worked with clients and friends, myself, people in my family and We filled it out and it really offers insight into, wow, look how much crap I'm dealing with and why am I letting myself get so tired that I'm not hanging out with the people I really, really love who build me up.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right, right, right. Yep. I heard a really great quote and I don't know who said it. It said something about Givers have to learn something because takers won't. It's like you're in a friendship and it's always your, nobody's made that friend is not making deposits into you, but you're always having to either support them or be their sounding board or, you know, they want to have a bitch fest and you're who they call or they need something like, you know, They call you up and there's barely any, hey, how you doing before it's can you or do you or something that they need from you? And it's never reciprocal. Yeah.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: And, you know, maybe at some point in life, that's going to be cool with you, depending on energy. But I think it's so important to reflect on, what do I have going on that I need to prioritize? Because that shit can be put on the sidelines. But if I'm really bored in life, then come on, vent to me.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right, right. And I'm always, see. Oh, go ahead. No, I'm just, I'm a solutions person. And I will let you vent or complain maybe one or two times about the same thing before I'm like, okay, What are you doing about it? Because what I can't have you do is fill my head with these complaints constantly and you're still there. You're not, there's no plan to change. So, I mean, what the hell? I don't want to hear it like the 10th time.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Right. In psychology, we learn or in undergraduate, we kind of learn personality styles. And so we'd call that the help rejecting complainer. And wow, that is a hard client to have, the help-rejecting complainer.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah, because do you really want help or you just, you know, like the misery? I don't get it and I can't. You make me tired, so I can't. Those are people that I just cannot do family or friends. I can't do it.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Exactly, and so if you can really set limits and boundaries around those interactions, if you have to be around them, that's ideal, right? You get in charge of it, you plan, if it's a colleague, you have to be around them, you plan those interactions, you plan the conversations you're willing to engage in, and you plan your outs.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yes, you gotta have the outs. Oh my gosh. I manage a senior apartment building for my day job. And the way I have my desk positioned is my out is always to end a conversation or to signal that I'm done. I can swivel my chair and now my back is to that person and I'm looking over and they usually get the hint that, okay, she's done with this conversation. Yes, I am. So I'm done. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Wow. Friendships are so big. Relationships in general, interactions can be challenging, but you know, and I think we need to stop calling every dang body a friend. They're an associate or an acquaintance. My friend circle, my actual friend circle is small. Everybody else doesn't get all that access to me and all that. No.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Yes, exactly. And, and we misinterpret the word friend because we want to have friends and, you know, we overuse it, but it's okay to call someone a colleague, a neighbor. Yeah. Coincidence.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah. Yeah. Friendship to me is reciprocal. It's give and take. Both people benefit from the friendship in some way. Everything else is just like, yeah, I work with them, or this is a co-worker, or this is an acquaintance, or something like that. But yeah, so Dr. Lezzy, what do you have coming up in the future? Is there going to be a Friend Cleanse Part 2, any new books, or what you got in your pipeline?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: I would love, so I've started writing a fictional horror book.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Oh, that's different.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Yes, it's very different, but it's that, you know, working with so many criminals in my life and hearing so many stories, I want to take that strong female presence into a story navigating all these horror stories. So that'll be very exciting. And then I'm going to, I think I'm doing a TEDx talk in a few months. Okay. And that'll be big. That'll be big for me. Yeah.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah. TEDx is a thing.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Yeah. And to talk about, you know, again, the, you know, we need to be authentic, transparent, and it'll allow us to be confident and who we surround ourselves with dictates who we are and how we show up for ourselves and our loved ones.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: oh so true so true that that was great that that mass thing i'm going to show notes i'm going to highlight that in the transcript because that's so true um I haven't gotten the book yet, but I am going to get it. Like I said, friend cleansing was something that I think I had to do just for my own sanity at certain periods in my life. I'm in my 50s now. Some of my friends have survived since grade school and some haven't. I've got a couple of friends that I've known since eighth grade. When I say a couple, I do mean one, two. And then I've gained some, I've lost some, I've had some good people around me, but the friendship didn't really click. And I'm not a phone talker, so I've never been talking on the phone with girlfriends for hours at a time. I just can't do it. I've got other shit going on. And I don't have that much to talk about. So I really do appreciate you coming on and spending some time with me to talk about your book. I believe I saw it on Amazon and it was having, the reviews were like super duper positive. So I hope it is so very successful for you. And I, I would love to see like a book series with a strong female lead that's going through all these different stories, like not just one book, but maybe 10.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Yes, I need to figure out a way to conceptualize it because, you know, how do you talk about this female woman, this female empowerment and cannibalism?
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: So like… Right. Oh, yeah, definitely. And I'm sure you've got amazing stories that I know you can't use like actual names and stuff, but, you know, just the the concept taken away from your time talking to people in the criminal justice system, I'm sure that was. I don't even know how you did it. That would have played on my head like all day and all night, like, good Lord.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: You know, it did. It still does. I mean, I definitely think I met criteria for PTSD at one point in my life. But it has also led me to have such a passion for now civil litigation. So I'm helping identify the truth in lawsuits that are outside of prison and jails. So if, you know, you sued a neighbor or something like that. So, you know, it gave me so much education and so much experience, but also trauma.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: So is there a psychological map method to listening to somebody say, you know, in a deposition and saying, oh, they're lying.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: You know, we, I use a lot of psychological testing and in the testing it tells us the truthfulness of you. So it does, it has different scales and it will kind of show if someone being infrequent or inconsistent. And so there's a lot of hidden methods in the science of these tests. And then you use that to compare with collateral information, with the deposition, with the interview questions. And you put it all together into one big picture of, does this seem grounded in reality?
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right. Okay. Okay. Now that's interesting. That's a little bit similar to what you did, but kind of a little bit removed from it. You're doing the same thing, but in a very, very different environment.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: That's pretty interesting. Yes. So less of, you know, should he get out of prison, and more of, did he rape her, or is she lying, or is he lying, and more of those cases, and then less scary ones, too.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah, yeah, how about that? Well, I am so, so, so grateful that, number one, we were finally able to record this episode because I think it's important that people will hear it. And maybe somebody hears it and they go, huh, I might need to do this friend cleanse thing, or at least go to the website and look at the energy thing and taking it, putting it over there and seeing what your energy does. Because I think energy is important. And there are true, true energy vampires out there that will literally suck the life out of you.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Oh, yes. And it's so important to get.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah. So thank you, Dr. Leslie, so very much, but. We're not done. We're just done with the formal part of our chat. Now we get to play 10 Candid Questions, which is my favorite part of the show. So 10 Candid Questions, just 10 random questions, some either or, some have to, you know, require a little more thought, but you have to answer them all candidly, of course. Are you ready?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Ready.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: All right, question number one, sunrises or sunsets? Rises. Me too. Same. All right, question number two, what's one thing you would change about society if you could?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Not believing victims.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: That's a good one. Huh. Question number three, mountains or beaches?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Mountains. Really?
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: I just knew you were going to say beaches.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: That's because I have it every day. So the mountains are the dream.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right, right, right, right. Got it. Got it. That makes sense. All right. Question number four. What's one thing you believe absolutely everyone should experience at least once?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: A friend that lifts you up when you're not in the room. Huh.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Oh, I'm going to be highlighting a bunch of stuff in this transcript. That was so good. Yes. Yes, because that's important. How do you talk about me when I'm not there? Mm-hmm. All right. Question number five. Coke or Pepsi?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Diet Coke.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: OK. Question number six. If you could write a message on a billboard that the whole world would see, what would it say?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Fuck off respectfully.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: I freaking love her. I love it. Respectfully. Oh my gosh. Question number seven, reading a physical book or listening to an audio book?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Audio, so I can go to Nordstrom Rack.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Same. All right, question number eight. What one word sums up who Dr. Leslie is?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Spirited.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: I get that. Yeah, that comes through. Question number nine. Singing in the shower or blasting music in the car?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Car, all the way.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Definitely. Absolutely. Can't tell me nothing in the car. It's a whole concert going on. Question number 10, and this is the same for all my guests. How can my listeners connect with you and get your book, The Friend Cleanse?
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Yes, so I'm Dr. Leslie Dobson on everything, D-R-L-E-S-L-I-E, D-O-B-S-O-N, on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube. I'm just starting that. And DrLeslieDobson.com. You can buy the book on there or on Amazon. And I think I have a Threads account. I don't really know.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: I know, I keep forgetting about threads. I wish it was kind of more integrated with Instagram, but you got to click out and go and ugh, too much.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Right. But I love Instagram and I love responding to messages. TikTok's a little overwhelming. Yeah.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah, I can't. I only do TikTok to post new episodes and then I'm not even on. It's just, it's a lot.
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: It's too fast for me. I can't keep up.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Same. Oh, well, Dr. Leslie, I want to thank you again from the bottom of my heart for being a part of the show, for sitting down and having this chat with me. And I wish you crazy success with your book and everything you do. So thank you. Thank you again for coming on The Kandid Shop!
DR. LESLIE DOBSON: Yes. Thank you for having me.
KANDIDLY KRISTIN: No, you're so welcome. All right, guys. I know y'all wasn't writing nothing down. So all of Dr. Leslie's contact info, her socials, a link to the book will be in the show notes. And don't forget to visit my website at www.thecandidchop.com. That's Candid with a K. And listen to a few episodes, drop me a review, and please share the show with every and anyone you know, strangers, whatever. Until we meet again, I want all of you to keep it safe, keep it healthy, and keep it kandid.
